DCC? DC? This could be the solution!! NOT AN AD!
Caseycam2
I know it's long, but the idea needs some explaining. It's actually so
simple, you may need to read it twice and try it out for yourself to believe
it. This works and has been tried out on a small test track, but will work on
any layout I can imagine with no more than 10 engines running at the same time
(max 2.5 amps)depending on your power supply.
I was recently planning to rebuild my HO Susquehanna Railway (NYS&W) layout
with 2-3 levels so I could have a more prototypical operation. The line is
mostly an up-grade from East to West, so the 3 levels are possible in my 20x30
basement without a helix. Since the real Susquehanna RR is mostly single track
with several locals and road trains, I needed a command control system since
block controls just weren't working out. To go DCC, I would need to invest in
decoders for EVERYTHING so the few regular locos could run the line (between 5
and 15 locos) and include all the occasional "foreign power" and maintainance /
inspection equipment (Hy Railers, Speeders, Sperry Car, etc). I also want
friends to be able to run their engines on my layout without having to convert
to MY system of choice. All of this is part of a normal operating session! My
collection is over 50 powered units; Steam, Diesel and other.
Have you ever tried to install a DCC decoder in a Bachmann Trackster Pickup?
It needs all the weight it can get PLUS better wheels and a motor just to run!
DCC in a powered HO Fairmont Speeder?? Not a chance; the motor barely fits!
The only option for these is standard DC. Hmm....
Several years back, I bought the MRC Command 2000 DCC unit since it supports
standard locos (and all those Tracksters & speeders I built) but it's DCC
abilities were far short of what I expected. Sure; I could run several trains
at once, but with only a stationary console and 1 or 2 walkaround throttles for
the DCC locos only. ALL DC locos had to run from the console. I was a little
ticked off. I didn't mind the stationary console "standard loco" control so
much and I've been told you can hack the MRC unit so that channel 1 is on it's
own walkaround (a techie job to say the least) but it wouldn't solve my problem
alone. I eventually wanted to upgrade to good sound support; Standard DC had
no horn / bell control and the MRC unit was weak at best. Then I was introduced
to the answer...
It's been around for years, but nobody paid much attention to it. I
overlooked it because of all the hoopla over DCC. I saw it operate on a large
layout, installed a reciever in both an Atlas RS3 (drop in) and an Athearn Geep
(hard wired), ran it on a small layout... I was impressed!
I was a skeptic, and even had some suggestions for improvements (which are
mostly planned for anyway) but now that I have found this solution, I'm sold.
First, let me tell you that I am NOT connected to these people in any way,
but after seeing it run, I wish I was! My engine fleet is pretty large and will
be costly to convert over.. but that's where my part of the idea comes in..
I'll get to that in a second. First comes the magic key....
The product is called Rail Lynx, and it's an Infra Red control system that
blows DCC right out of the water. It is completely track independant for it's
command functions, and the track is only supplying power to the loco and cars.
The loco has a receiver and infrared receiving LEDs in the cab. They used to
stick out the top of the engine and it looked funky, but that has changed! They
hide in the cab, barely visable to the eye and can be further masked by the
crew or interior details if you wish. The loco control is incredible and makes
walkaround throttles and cab controls seem like playing with toy trains! The
controls are completely wireless since the engine recieves the signal from your
small hand held remote. You can control your headlights (off-dim-bright) and
they don't "reverse" unrealisicly if you change directions. You change the
settings, just like on the real thing. It has sound support for SoundTraxx
boards and you can program accel & decel rates, starting voltage and more. It's
really packed for such a simple system. (Future plans include a sound equipped
reciever, but that isn't first priority) ANY Rail Lynx transmitter is
upgradable to sound support.
The part I Iike best is that Rail Lynx can run on either AC or DC power,
since it has a bridge rectifier on the receiver and it converts the AC to DC or
takes DC in either + - or - + and converts it to the right polarity. What this
means is you can run it on a "standard" layout by turning up the power to full
throttle in the blocks you plan to run or you can run it on a DCC layout and do
nothing differnet or you can run it on a dedicated layout with full AC or DC
power applied at all times.
This technical mumbo-jumbo simply means that you can do whatever you want and
it works! You can "MU" engines of different "Cab numbers" to share a common
"Consist number", you can cut off locos or run helpers independantly.. just
about anything you want. No programming tracks are needed for Rail Lynx either!
They advertise its's ability to work on any layout, but only to make it run on
that layout. The part they don't advertise is that by setting the system up MY
WAY, you don't have to dedicate your entire layout to it either. THIS IS THE
GOOD PART!!
Now, to prove I don't work for the Rail Lynx people.. My suggested application
of their system uses an MRC Command 2000 to make it work for everything!
THIS IS THE SECRET! IT'S SO SIMPLE YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!
My favorite way to set up a layout to run ANYTHING on a blockless layout!
It's all so simple:
Get an MRC Command 2000 DCC system. You don't even need the reciever or any
special DCC engines unless you want to run them.
Run a wire from the "Accessory 16v AC" (on a standard MRC or similar throttle)
to the input on the MRC Command 2000 DCC console. Connect it to the track as
instructed (2 wires to the track)
You are done with the set up!
You can run standard locos, DCC and Rail Lynx equpiment on the same track at
the same time!!
How??
The Command 2000 sends 16v AC through the rails which won't run standard
locos but will run DCC locos and Rail Lynx locos. Standard locos will only run
on "Channel 1" of the MRC DCC unit, but they will at least run without a total
commitment to DCC or Rail Lynx! They will buzz a little, but I have tested
several manufaturers locos for over 1 hour at idle and noticed no heat build up
on the motors (Atlas old RS1, Atlas new RS3, Athearn 80's production GP35,
Bachmann Plus GP35 and a Bachamnn 44Tonner) and MRC only suggests no more than
20-30 min at idle. I can't give any credit to the "DAMAGE" claims I have heard.
The Command 2000 varies the AC "waves" to run a standard DC loco. By
overlapping the + and -, the DC motor turns in the direction you indicated. The
more power you request, the faster the motor turns. You can run several DC
locos at the same time and still run DCC or Rail Lynx equipment... depending on
your power supply.
With this set up, you can run DCC, Standard locos and Rail Lynx without a
total commitment to any one system. No other DCC system lets you do it (MRC is
the only DCC that has standard loco support) and you won't have to worry about
16 volts of DC making a stray standard loco run away.
By "hack" converting the Command 2000, the standard DC equipment could run on
it's own walkaround (I'm checking into the conversion but need the special TORX
bit to open my console), DCC equipment can run by walkaround, and Rail Lynx
equipment can run by it's own control. This appears to be the answer to
"covering all the bases" of HO layout control. I still suggest power blocks in
any loco storage or staging area just to prevent any "Engineer Error" by
activating the wrong train by mistake. Even the best of us make mistakes!
For my railroad, I can convert my few regular "local" locos (3 GP18's, GP40,
GP38, SW7, NW2) and a few road units to Rail Lynx. These engines will not be
expected to run with any standard locos on the same train. Any DCC equipment I
already have can be put into interchange locos or commuter trains that run on a
seperate mainline. Maintainance or small equipment can run on standard DC since
it is of minor concern. Any "foreign power" of mine or visiting can run on
standard DC without the cost of recievers.
The cost?
Rail Lynx transmitters without sound control run about $150 each (1 per TRAIN)
Rail Lynx Recievers without sound run about $50 each (full featured)
The MRC Command 2000 can be gotten from $50 used to $200 new (with a decoder)
You probably have a decent powerpack to feed the power (up to 2.5amps max for
the Command 2000), but if you need to buy one you could spend between $20 and
$75.
A basic startup package to run EVERYTHING is maximum $275! Most decent DCC
units hit you for over $300 just to run 1 to 3 trains, each requiring a DCC
receiver and you can't run anything else!
My startup cost will total about $1000, but I can run ANYTHING this way.
If I want to add DCC or Rail Lynx recievers, I buy them as I can.
All my friends and visitors can run anything they bring. I can run anything I
buy or build.
I don't think anyone else could do better, and it's so simple to do!
Like I said at the beginning.. Food for thought!
No need to reply. Flames should be posted to the group if you want, but don't
knock it until you try it. Knocking other peoples ideas without trying them
either shows your insecurity in what you have or your inability to embrace new
ideas. I'm not making any money by sharing this discovery with you. Each system
on it's own is very good, but since they all operate so differently AND so many
people use each one, we need a way to run them all if we intend to keep our
friends coming to run trains on our layouts! That's the fun of model
railroading.. Sharing with others.
Bill Smith
North Hawthorne Car Shops Custom Decals & Kits
http://trainmaster.mervernation.com/nhcs.html
Case...@aol.com
train...@mervernation.com
Edward A. Oates
seen a modern one yet which won't run standard DC locomotives via address
zero. The decoders for DCC start at about $15 from most manufacturers with
at least forward/reverse lights. You can independently control the forward
and reverse lights on any of them to simulate what a real engineer does: he
manually turns the ligths on an off. For a few bucks more, you can get
lighting effects from NCE, TCS and others on 4 function wires, including
dimming, Mars , gyro, etc.
Every modern DCC system will run ANY NMRA compliant decoder so "foreign"
engines are not a problem.
Thanks for the post, but I just don't see any advantages to RailLynx over
anything else. This is not to say that it is not a good command and control
candidate.
Ed.
in article 20011012045320...@mb-fb.aol.com, Caseycam2 at
case...@aol.com wrote on 10/12/01 1:53 AM:
--
Ed Oates
DCC wiring information is at http://www.wiringfordcc.com
Joe Ellis
<EdO...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Excuse me, but what you've described is everybody's dcc system. I've not
>seen a modern one yet which won't run standard DC locomotives via address
>zero. The decoders for DCC start at about $15 from most manufacturers with
>at least forward/reverse lights. You can independently control the forward
>and reverse lights on any of them to simulate what a real engineer does: he
>manually turns the ligths on an off. For a few bucks more, you can get
>lighting effects from NCE, TCS and others on 4 function wires, including
>dimming, Mars , gyro, etc.
>
>Every modern DCC system will run ANY NMRA compliant decoder so "foreign"
>engines are not a problem.
>
>Thanks for the post, but I just don't see any advantages to RailLynx over
>anything else. This is not to say that it is not a good command and control
>candidate.
>
>Ed.
Well, it does have one _MAJOR_ disadvantage compared to DCC...
How do you control a train that's out of sight?
<pauses while the group considers the potential problems running
locomotives that are in tunnels, cuts, trees, or behind buildings...>
I suspect that the RailLynx system isn't particularly N or Z scale
friendly, either...
Given the line-of-sight limitations and the probable size issues, I don't
have to try it to know it wouldn't be right for me, or for most of the
modelers in my N-Trak club.
Honestly, folks, in a market as consumer-driven as this, if something was
THAT much better and cheaper than DCC and had been around for that long,
wouldn't it have higher market penetration?
By the way, don't tell me there's no room for a decoder in _ANY_ HO model.
The Lenz 077XF will fit in a N scale Lifelike SW9, or in the coal bunker
in a Tomix N scale Thomas the Tank Engine. You could probably put it under
the seat in your speeder, or in a load (hollowed out stack of ties,
perhaps?) in the back of the high-rail pickup. It's approximately 1/2"
square, and 1/8" thick, and sells for $20-25 on the street. Digitrax
makes a decoder a bit thicker, but narrower.
--
Joe Ellis € CEO Bethlehem-Ares Railroad
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___|8 8B| ___ /::::: / /::::X/ /:::::/ /:::::/||
||__BARR| | | /::::::/ /:::::X /:::::/ /:::::/ ||
----------------------------------------------------------------
[(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)]|___________________________|[(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)]
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Serving America's Heartland Since 1822 ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Caseycam2
with what you have, that's fine. Like I said, I was skeptical before I tried it
too. To answer a few questions and add a few comments:
Simplicity is the key here. Sure DCC can do most of the features, but not
without a GIANT System One control, or a programming track, or other complex
button pressing.
Joe Ellis made a point about fitting DCC decoders in small equipment. Joe, you
work in N scale so you should know. I'd love to see you TRY to fit a decoder
into an HO speeder. I spent months working out how to fit a "pager vibrator
motor" , gears and some sort of power reduction circuit into a modified Durango
Press speeder. It just can't be done. Putting a tiny decoder into a model is no
problem, but if the choice is between the decoder and more weight, I'll take
the weight!
I powered a Jordan Mack Switcher with a Bachmann 44tonner power truck and had
to find places to put slivers of lead weight just so it could pull more than 1
car. I'll keep running it with regular DC power since it isn't a regular on my
layout (the prototype belongs to the Black River & Western RR and never showed
up on the NYS&W)
Tunnels?? No problem. The Rail Lynx system offers IR Repeaters that take car of
"blind spots", but unlike DCC, you don't need these unless you have such blind
spots. DCC seems to need boosters all over the place.. at least from what I've
seen, been told and read.
Based on what the advertising and "DCC experts" at train shows, standard DC
locos are not supported. If other DCC's DO support standard DC, then fine. How
many Boosters do you need to run a mainline over 400ft long? How many
walkaround plugs do you need to install? When you add or drop helpers on the
mountain, how quickly can you change their channel so you can run them
independantly? These are the operational aspects of the Rail Lynx system that
are super!
Rail Lynx blows standard DCC out of the water because of it's simplicity,
wireless control, and upgrade possibilities.
Joe Ellis asked, "Honestly, folks, in a market as consumer-driven as this, if
something was THAT much better and cheaper than DCC and had been around for
that long, wouldn't it have higher market penetration?"
Rail Lynx made a few appearances back in the 80's in some model magazines (MR?
RMC?) but I also ignored it. As we struggled with DC and DCC, they simply
improved Rail Lynx. It was used on the layouts of the designers and all the
bugs were worked out. Now, with the receiver LEDs in the cab and better "drop
in" receivers (some with DCC plugs!) Rail Lynx has me convinced.
The past customers of the system are the best advertising. The Rail Lynx guys
don't have a big company to support an advertising budget. Running ad's in MR
is expensive! "Consumer-driven" markets only find the best stuff if they can
see it. If you only see DCC ads, how will you ever know about something better
that didn't get a loud enough voice?
My flame in return? It's to this statement:
"By the way, don't tell me here's no room for a decoder in _ANY_ HO model. The
Lenz 077XF will fit in a N scale Lifelike SW9, or in the coal bunker in a Tomix
N scale Thomas the Tank Engine. You could probably put it under the seat in
your speeder, or in a load (hollowed out stack of ties, perhaps?) in the back
of the high-rail pickup. It's approximately 1/2" square, and 1/8" thick, and
sells for $20-25 on the street. Digitrax makes a decoder a bit thicker, but
narrower."
Be serious! NO decoder will fit "under the seat" of an HO speeder! 1/2 inch
square is almost the whole speeder!
I don't want to start a new arguement, so before you reply or flame again..
GO CHECK ONE OF THESE SYSTEMS OUT.
If you can't embrace change or consider that "popular opinion" is wrong, then
continue to ignore the fact that Rail Lynx is out here.
The point in my original post is that by using a combination of 2 simple
control systems, we can have our models and run them too!
Bill
Caseycam2
From: case...@aol.com (Caseycam2)
Date: 10/12/01 3:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <20011012155905...@mb-ce.aol.com>
I don't want to offend anyone who already bought into DCC. If you are happy
with what you have, that's fine. Like I said, I was skeptical before I tried it
too. To answer a few questions and add a few comments:
Simplicity is the key here. Sure DCC can do most of the features, but not
without a GIANT System One control, or a programming track, or other complex
button pressing.
Joe Ellis made a point about fitting DCC decoders in small equipment. Joe, you
work in N scale so you should know. I'd love to see you TRY to fit a decoder
into an HO speeder. I spent months working out how to fit a "pager vibrator
motor" , gears and some sort of power reduction circuit into a modified Durango
Press speeder. It just can't be done. Putting a tiny decoder into a model is no
problem, but if the choice is between the decoder and more weight, I'll take
the weight!
I powered a Jordan Mack Switcher with a Bachmann 44tonner power truck and had
to find places to put slivers of lead weight just so it could pull more than 1
car. I'll keep running it with regular DC power since it isn't a regular on my
layout (the prototype belongs to the Black River & Western RR and never showed
up on the NYS&W)
Tunnels?? No problem. The Rail Lynx system offers IR Repeaters that take care
square is almost the whole speeder! If you ever had to run a Bachamann
trackster, you'd know that the weight is needed more than a decoder. Plus, most
HyRail trucks don't have piles of stuff in the back. Usually the trucks have a
few items laying in the back. Bachmann put a giant box in the bed of the truck
to leave room for their oversize motor. I only mentioned this equipment to
illustrate that we can't justify a decoder in EVERYTHING; especially something
that runs on rare occasions. I'd rather have more models than HAVE TO install a
decoder in anything I want to run. This was the other point of the original
post. (as the readers pause to consider how reading a post carefully before
submitting a reply can help you sound more intelligent.)
I don't want to start a new arguement, so before you reply or flame again..
GO CHECK ONE OF THESE SYSTEMS OUT.
If you can't embrace change or consider that "popular opinion" is at times
wrong, then continue to ignore the fact that Rail Lynx is out here. You are
only denying yourself the opportunity to truely enjoy running your trains.
The point in my original post is that by using a combination of 2 simple
control systems, we can have all our models and run them too!
Bill
Jon Miller
>When you add or drop helpers on the mountain, how quickly can you change
their channel<
DCC does not have channels per say, it has addresses. No need to change
anything as many systems are capable of over 9000 addresses. When you add
or drop a helper with DCC you don't change anything, just apply a little air
to helper #9876 (at the end behind the caboose) and the engine backs away.
I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to DCC
is like comparing DC to DCC!
Dan Prysby
You will need boosters to run multiple engines - same as DCC.
You will need repeaters - not with DCC.
How do you handle track polarity mismatch like reverse loops? - DCC can.
You will have only 1 choice of system components - not with DCC.
Dan
Harry Wilkins
any day
Dan Prysby wrote:
> You will have to buy and install modules in locos - same as DCC.
> You will need boosters to run multiple engines - same as DCC.
> You will need repeaters - not with DCC.
> How do you handle track polarity mismatch like reverse loops? - DCC can.
> You will have only 1 choice of system components - not with DCC.
>
> Dan
>
> Caseycam2 wrote:
> >
> > I don't want to offend anyone who already bought into DCC. If you are happy
> > with what you have, that's fine. Like I said, I was skeptical before I tried it
> > too. To answer a few questions and add a few comments:.............
>
> > Bill
Train Man
Caseycam2 wrote:
>
> I don't want to offend anyone who already bought into DCC. If you are happy
> with what you have, that's fine. Like I said, I was skeptical before I tried it
> too. To answer a few questions and add a few comments:
>
> Simplicity is the key here. Sure DCC can do most of the features, but not
> without a GIANT System One control, or a programming track, or other complex
> button pressing.
What complex button pressing? 99.9% of the time, the only button
pressing I do is with the direction button.
>
> Joe Ellis made a point about fitting DCC decoders in small equipment. Joe, you
> work in N scale so you should know. I'd love to see you TRY to fit a decoder
> into an HO speeder. I spent months working out how to fit a "pager vibrator
> motor" , gears and some sort of power reduction circuit into a modified Durango
> Press speeder. It just can't be done. Putting a tiny decoder into a model is no
> problem, but if the choice is between the decoder and more weight, I'll take
> the weight!
So you are telling us, that you can fit a Rail Lynx reciever into one of
these speeders but you can't fit something like the LE077 in there? Your
statement that MRC is the only one that supports analog control (DC) of
an engine is pure BS. You really ought to do the research you claim to
have done.
>
> I powered a Jordan Mack Switcher with a Bachmann 44tonner power truck and had
> to find places to put slivers of lead weight just so it could pull more than 1
> car. I'll keep running it with regular DC power since it isn't a regular on my
> layout (the prototype belongs to the Black River & Western RR and never showed
> up on the NYS&W)
How many cars can a real one pull?
>
> Tunnels?? No problem. The Rail Lynx system offers IR Repeaters that take car of
> "blind spots", but unlike DCC, you don't need these unless you have such blind
> spots. DCC seems to need boosters all over the place.. at least from what I've
> seen, been told and read.
WITH DCC, you needn't worry about blind spots. If you want IR operation,
ONE reciever at a cost of about $40 (iirc) will do the trick for the
entire layout in most cases.
>
> Based on what the advertising and "DCC experts" at train shows, standard DC
> locos are not supported. If other DCC's DO support standard DC, then fine. How
> many Boosters do you need to run a mainline over 400ft long? How many
> walkaround plugs do you need to install? When you add or drop helpers on the
> mountain, how quickly can you change their channel so you can run them
> independantly? These are the operational aspects of the Rail Lynx system that
> are super!
Only 1 (one, single, lonely) booster is needed. With DCC, the 'channel'
or more accurately put, Adress, doesn't need to be changed at all.
Adding or dropping an engine from a consist is a simple matter of
selecting both engines and pressing ONE, SINGLE, LONELY button. Dropping
an engine from a consist is pretty much the same. No adress changing to
be done. With IR (or radio) operation, No walk around plugs are required
for control.
DCC systems care not what flavor of power (AC or DC) feeds them because
they convert it to what is needed internally. My entire layout is
powered by a single 6 amp transformer. The same wiring issues that exist
with DC, still exist with DCC AND will exist with Rail Lynx regardless
of how simple the system may be. Power still has to be supplied to the
rails and reverse loops are still a problem. It doesn't bother me to put
in a programming track. That programming track BTW is only needed for
the address of the loco. The rest can be done on the main, in the yard,
in the engine facility, etc.
Soundtraxx support already exists on EVERY SINGLE DCC DECODER on the
market. The sountraxx functions are independant of the decoder driving
the engine. No special throttle is required to access those functions
either. Your MRC won't do it because it simply wasn't intended to access
multiple functions.
Then how do you run it? Last time I checked the distance between HO
scale standard gauge rails was about 5/8". DCC decoders are getting
smaller by the day.
>
> I don't want to start a new arguement, so before you reply or flame again..
> GO CHECK ONE OF THESE SYSTEMS OUT.
>
> If you can't embrace change or consider that "popular opinion" is wrong, then
> continue to ignore the fact that Rail Lynx is out here.
>
> The point in my original post is that by using a combination of 2 simple
> control systems, we can have our models and run them too!
> Bill
I'll stick with one control system and yes I can run my models. My
friends can bring their engines over and run them AND I can take mine to
their layouts. Neither of us needs to change anything. One stiking point
you fail to mention is that Analog operation from the MRC system you
propose we purchase works just like any standard throttle. ANY engine
without decoder or reciever will react to that control SO, the question
becomes, what if 2 of your freinds want to run their non-rail-lynxed
engines? If I couldn't embrace change, I'd still be flipping block
switches.
My final statement to this post (and your first) IS a flame. It is
obvious to me that you haven't done your homework in discovering what is
really out there in terms of DCC. Statements you make about it are just
plain false. It really doesn't make any difference to me what system you
use, I couldn't care less. However, your mis-informed poison only serves
to confuse the new person looking into the subject. Your suggestion that
we go out and spend a grand just to get where we already are beyond is
completely ridiculous. In my case, Digitrax 8 amp chief, at least 25
engines decodered (4 of them with soundtraxx) a couple extra throttles
for the freinds to use and I have just now exceeded that $1000 mark. And
Yes, as stated earlier, I can run ANY engine that doesn't yet have a
decoder. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I use a Digitrax decoder or
an NCE, Lenz, TSL decoder either. They all work about the same. If,
operationally, your rail-lynx system isn't where DCC is right now then
they've been asleep at the throttle. FROM your description, I would put
Rail Lynx in the same catagory as the Onboard sound system of the
pre-DCC days. Some use it and love it but as far as the market is
concerned, the command control train has left the station long ago while
they were trying to figure out what train to board.
Jeff
Joe Ellis
case...@aol.com (Caseycam2) wrote:
>Subject: Re: DCC? DC? This could be the solution!! NOT AN AD!
>From: case...@aol.com (Caseycam2)
>Date: 10/12/01 3:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20011012155905...@mb-ce.aol.com>
>
>I don't want to offend anyone who already bought into DCC. If you are happy
>with what you have, that's fine. Like I said, I was skeptical before I tried it
>too. To answer a few questions and add a few comments:
>
>Simplicity is the key here. Sure DCC can do most of the features, but not
>without a GIANT System One control, or a programming track, or other complex
>button pressing.
All of _what_ features? Headlight operation? No sweat - do you want front
light and rear light separate? Mars light? Or maybe Gyralight? how about
just Rule 17 dimmable headlights? Alternating ditch lights? Single flash
strobe? Double flash strobe? How long a delay do you want between flashes?
Once these options are set, a push of a button (or a couple of buttons)
operates them. I use headlight _and_ a double-flash strobe on my
engines... and can operate them separately. If I want, I can change the
strobe to a single flash, or rotary beacon, or...
Sound - the same story.
Control/throttle _size_ is a straw man argument. The limiting factor in
control size is _finger_ size, and it has to be designed for the folks
with BIG fingers. That's what determines how many buttons can be put in a
given space. If you want a smaller control, you _must_ have multi-function
buttons. If you want each function on its own button, you _must_ have a
larger control.
Some DCC systems allow you a _choice_ - Larger, but less complex
throttles, or smaller, more compact throttles with multifunction buttons.
Both will do all the same jobs.
>
>Joe Ellis made a point about fitting DCC decoders in small equipment. Joe, you
>work in N scale so you should know. I'd love to see you TRY to fit a decoder
>into an HO speeder. I spent months working out how to fit a "pager vibrator
>motor" , gears and some sort of power reduction circuit into a modified Durango
>Press speeder. It just can't be done. Putting a tiny decoder into a model is no
>problem, but if the choice is between the decoder and more weight, I'll take
>the weight!
I'd wager your "power reduction circuit" is bigger than the Lenz chip...
and with the Vmax and speed table options of DCC, totally unnecessary.
Take it out and put the chip in its place. Set VMax (maximum voltage) to
allow the highest voltage you want to be able to use.
Your speeder can be run on at least one DCC system, too. Just use address
0 on your throttle. Full control of direction and speed without installing
a chip. No functions, of course - but then you don't have any functions in
it anyway. You _do_ get "automatic constant lighting", however.
>I powered a Jordan Mack Switcher with a Bachmann 44tonner power truck and had
>to find places to put slivers of lead weight just so it could pull more than 1
>car. I'll keep running it with regular DC power since it isn't a regular on my
>layout (the prototype belongs to the Black River & Western RR and never showed
>up on the NYS&W)
If you don't run it at the same time as the speeder, you can do the same
thing here - run it on address 0. Unless you're an above average
machinist, though, I think there would still be room for a small chip,
even without removing weight. Might have to shuffle some around... hard to
tell from here. One of my next loco purchases is going to be a MicroAce 3
axle switcher... there's room for a chip in the cab, and it's about the
size of your whole power truck. Maybe you need to clean your track,
wheels, and pickups?
>
>Tunnels?? No problem. The Rail Lynx system offers IR Repeaters that take care
>of "blind spots", but unlike DCC, you don't need these unless you have such
>blind spots. DCC seems to need boosters all over the place.. at least from what
>I've seen, been told and read.
Uh, yeah... and how much are these repeaters? I have a small layout in my
living room - two hollow core doors, in an L. I have a tunnel, a cut, and
a ridge with trees. The tunnel and cut are on curves, with line of sight
through them blocked. Control throughout all of them is an absolute
necessity due to switch placement and operating concerns. Looks like I
would need at least 5 repeaters... and how do I hide them in a rock cut?
On the other hand, I have _one_ booster/command station. Even running 8
locomotives at a time (the maximum I've tried) it's not straining.
Our club layout is much larger - a combination of modules and permanent
track in a room about 20x60 feet. We regularly run ops sessions with 20+
operators, and multiple MU'd engines. Some of our trains run 3 engines up
front, and 2 mid-train helpers. We use 1 command station and 3 boosters
for the large club layout, to handle the current draw and provide more
localized power without the drops from long buss runs. We have one tunnel
over 30 feet long, and several shorter ones.
... and the total cost of the command station and boosters was less than
the $1K you dropped. We spent more money on the rotary switches for the
blocks that we've torn out since going to DCC.
Sounds like you're guilty of exactly what you accuse others of doing - by
your own statement above, you haven't run DCC much. Need for additional
boosters is a function of _current_draw_, not line of sight. People with
DCC tend to run more engines, and more MU'd engines, and therefore need
more power capability, than do those with DC. When was the last time you
saw 3 locomotives working a yard, cooperating on breaking up a terminating
train? I did that last ops session at the club.
You should have seen the look on their faces when I came around the corner
with a Lifelike SW9 pulling 15 cars... <<grin>>
>
>Based on what the advertising and "DCC experts" at train shows, standard DC
>locos are not supported.
You haven't been talking to the right "experts" then.
>If other DCC's DO support standard DC, then fine. How
>many Boosters do you need to run a mainline over 400ft long?
Wrong question. How many _locomotives_ do you want to use on that
mainline, and how much current do they draw? What are your buss wires
like? How much drop do they have over the distance? One command
station/booster _can_ do it, for up to about 5 amps.
>How many
>walkaround plugs do you need to install?
Wrong question again. What's the shape of the layout? Where do you want to
be able to control trains? Do you want wireless IR or radio operation? It
_is_ available in DCC, and full duplex radio (throttles able to both send
_and_ receive signals) is about 6 months away or less.
I used simple single-plug phone boxes on my layout (7 of them) and
installed triple taps in four of them where folks tend to congregate.
Simple, easy, and flexible.
>When you add or drop helpers on the
>mountain, how quickly can you change their channel so you can run them
>independantly? These are the operational aspects of the Rail Lynx system that
>are super!
Change channels? Who changes channels? You don't change "channels" on DCC.
I use 4 digit addressing on my locomotives. At the club, we sign up for a
"block" of 100 numbers. Mine happens to be 42XX. It's going to be a LONG
time before I have 100 locos. You just call up a locomotive's address on
your throttle. If I'm going to just run a helper, I dial up the second
loco on the other throttle knob and work both throttles. If it's a long
haul, I'll MU it. If it doesn't couple, I'll just drop the helper out
gradually, let the train pull away, and run the helper back without
stopping the the train (then try to find out why it didn't couple... those
things are supposed to WORK!). If it does couple, you've gotta stop to
drop... for now. Some folks are working on using one of the functions on
the decoders to automatically _uncouple_ on command. I've heard they're
actually doing it in O scale. Mebbe someday in N! <<grin>>
>
>Rail Lynx blows standard DCC out of the water because of it's simplicity,
>wireless control, and upgrade possibilities.
Umm... nope. Took me 5 minutes to hook up my DCC system... and that
included reading the instructions. I was running a locomotive just a few
seconds later, without installing a decoder. A couple of hours later, I
was running _2_ locomotives and doing cornfield meets after doing my first
install.
Wireless control? Hardly exclusive to RailLynx. The standard Digitrax
throttle includes wireless IR capability. They can be upgraded to radio,
or you can buy a radio throttle. All you need to add is the receiver...
and unlike RailLynx, the IR receiver can be mounted high above the layout
where line-of-sight won't be blocked. The throttle has a range of over 40
feet when conditions are good.
What kind of "upgrade" capabilities are you talking about? Keeping things
compatible, so that systems used 10 years ago are still usable? Capability
to upgrade throttles to wireless control? Making certain new equipment
capabilities don't conflict with legacy systems, even those that can't
take advantage of them?? All true of most DCC manufacturers.
>
>Joe Ellis asked, "Honestly, folks, in a market as consumer-driven as this, if
>something was THAT much better and cheaper than DCC and had been around for
>that long, wouldn't it have higher market penetration?"
>Rail Lynx made a few appearances back in the 80's in some model magazines (MR?
>RMC?) but I also ignored it. As we struggled with DC and DCC, they simply
>improved Rail Lynx. It was used on the layouts of the designers and all the
>bugs were worked out. Now, with the receiver LEDs in the cab and better "drop
>in" receivers (some with DCC plugs!) Rail Lynx has me convinced.
LOL! That's a one-sided statement if ever I've heard one. "As we struggled
with DC and DCC, they simply improved Rail Lynx.". They've "simply" been
improving DCC, too. Do you think that DCC designers _don't_ have test
layouts or beta testers? There have been a LOT of improvements in DCC over
the years.
A bit scale-centric, I admit, but just how do DCC plugs on a receiver that
requires a direct line of sight help an N scaler? The only locos I've
heard of with DCC plugs in N are steamers... and the plug is in the
tender!
BTW, if they're receivers, they're _not_ LEDs.
>
>The past customers of the system are the best advertising. The Rail Lynx guys
>don't have a big company to support an advertising budget. Running ad's in MR
>is expensive! "Consumer-driven" markets only find the best stuff if they can
>see it. If you only see DCC ads, how will you ever know about something better
>that didn't get a loud enough voice?
Given _your_ description of the capabilities of the system, there are a
lot of modelers who would not be able to use it.
1) Anyone in N or Z. (DCC manufacturers make N _and_ Z scale decoders)
2) Someone who needed constant control in hidden or obscured trackage (not
a factor with DCC)
3) Anyone modeling equipment with restricted visual access to the interior
of the model (Some high-speed trains, large scales with large open cabs
and no place to hide the electronics)
Maybe there's a _reason_ RailLynx doesn't have a big company...
>
>My flame in return? It's to this statement:
>"By the way, don't tell me here's no room for a decoder in _ANY_ HO model. The
>Lenz 077XF will fit in a N scale Lifelike SW9, or in the coal bunker in a Tomix
>N scale Thomas the Tank Engine. You could probably put it under the seat in
>your speeder, or in a load (hollowed out stack of ties, perhaps?) in the backof
>the high-rail pickup. It's approximately 1/2" square, and 1/8" thick, and sells
>for $20-25 on the street. Digitrax makes a decoder a bit thicker, but
>narrower."
>Be serious! NO decoder will fit "under the seat" of an HO speeder! 1/2 inch
>square is almost the whole speeder! If you ever had to run a Bachamann
>trackster, you'd know that the weight is needed more than a decoder. Plus, most
>HyRail trucks don't have piles of stuff in the back. Usually the trucks have a
>few items laying in the back. Bachmann put a giant box in the bed of the truck
>to leave room for their oversize motor. I only mentioned this equipment to
>illustrate that we can't justify a decoder in EVERYTHING; especially something
>that runs on rare occasions. I'd rather have more models than HAVE TO install a
>decoder in anything I want to run. This was the other point of the original
>post. (as the readers pause to consider how reading a post carefully before
>submitting a reply can help you sound more intelligent.)
Well, your first mistake was in starting with Bachmann. <<grin>>
I've got a few of these Lenz chips on order right now. I'll shoot some
photos of them when they come in, and of =some of the installs I do with
them.
And, like I said above, you don't HAVE to install a chip to use it with
DCC. Run it using address 0.
<<and now I'll let you pause and consider again how it might be wise to
find out more about the systems _you_ are running down before submitting
_your_ reply...>>
>
>
>I don't want to start a new arguement, so before you reply or flame again..
> GO CHECK ONE OF THESE SYSTEMS OUT.
"Physician, heal thyself..." <<grin>>
>If you can't embrace change or consider that "popular opinion" is at times
>wrong, then continue to ignore the fact that Rail Lynx is out here. You are
>only denying yourself the opportunity to truely enjoy running your trains.
LOL. I _do_ run my trains, and enjoy it. I'm one of the rotating hosts for
my clubs round-robin operating sessions. I don't need wireless on my
layout, but we do use it on others and at the club... and we never need
line-of-sight to control our trains.
You might want to consider that while "popular opinion" _can_ be wrong...
it is far more often right.
>
>The point in my original post is that by using a combination of 2 simple
>control systems, we can have all our models and run them too!
And the point of _my_ post is - why use two systems when one will do the
job, for less money overall, with fewer restrictions on design or scale,
greater capability, a larger installed base, greater interoperability
between manufacturers, and far better prospects for continued
availability?
Lee Poplin
web site. I just don't understand why you would want to go that route. You
have to have a line-of site meaning you have to have that little part showing
out of your loco. Where do you put it, in the window? Mount is as a huge
firecracker antena? :) Seems like the whole system is just a stab in the dark
towards semi-DCC. Your gonna have to dump money into the throttle and decoders
in each loco so why not go just full DCC and have a boat load of more features
and controllability?!? I don't see this system working out too well. In my
opinion, I wouldn't invest in the company or product. DCC is getting cheaper,
more advanced, and becoming a huge widely-accepted standard.
Just my opinion.
-Lee
---------------------------
Nashville, TN
Southern / Norfolk Southern - Z, N, HO Scales
NMRA & Southeast Region Lifetime Member
DCC all the way baby!
Jim Bernier
Bill,
Are you serious, an agent for Rail Lynx, or just trolling? DCC is
not that expensive, will fit into N scale engines and has more
'features' than you will ever use!
I currently have a Digitrax Chief system, 4 radio throttles and a a
'Palm' throttle. Also about 22 decoder equipped engines in N scale(plus
4 HO engines). Total cost? Lets add it up(discounted prices, of
course):
$360 - Chief system
40 - Power Supply
115 - UR91 Radio Receiver
175 - DT400R
175 - DT400R
150 - DT100R
150 - DT100R
240 - Palm Throttle/cable(Palm m105)
50 - PR-1 and 'wall wart' p/s
____
1355 - for a 'high end' system(all of the bells & whistles)
445 - decoders(a real mix of Digitrax & Lenz)
____
1800 - total investment in the control system
50 - #14 'bus' wiring & surplus store terminal strips.
50 - current limiting auto taillight bults(1156) & other stuff)
Now, for under $2,000 I have more 'system' than most model railroaders
will ever use. My old layout with the 2200 ft of #18 feeder wires, 38
blocks, 3 MRC 'walk-around' throttles, hundreds of crimp connectors and
plastic wire guide clamps, 3 large control panels, etc - the cost was
over $1300, and it took me over a month to drop all of the feeders, run
the block wiring, build the panels, & wire them(this was an under the
gun, get it ready for a NMRA regional layout tour). The new layout is
under construction, but the feeder drops will tie into the 'bus' via
'suitcase connectors' and be split up with the current limiting lamps.
I I suspect that a week will be needed to make all of the connections.
And I get full DCC with real 'non teathered' throttles(4 of them),
higher voltage on the track(better pickup), & no 'block' overrun
problems(well, maybe 'cornfield' meets). My engines will still work on
DC layouts, on other DCC layouts(including other DCC systems), and my
throttles will work on a friends Digitrax equipped layout as well. When
I dive up to another city, there are several Digitrax equipped layouts
that I can take my throttle along so we have enough throttles to run all
of the trains.
A club I belonged to when I lived in the MSP area used standard
DC(this was 17 years ago), and had 'Catnip' IR walk-around throttles.
They had to mount the receiver units high, and paint the entire ceiling
area with arefective white paint to get the system to work(25 by 50 foot
room, IIRC). Of course they now have a DCC system......
You can get into DCC for under $250, and 'grow' the
system/throttles/decoders as you go.
As for mounting decoders, I can get them into N scale steamers(Kato
2-8-2), switchers(SW1200) and my other diesels with no problem. As far
as your 'trackster' - just run it on DC(address 0) with your DCC
system.....
Jim
Jon Miller
manufacture system that will probably only be around for a few more years,
what would you do?
Caseycam2
I agree that RAIL LYNX alone is INCAPABLE OF RUNNING DC LOCOS AS IT IS SOLD AND
ADVERTISED! I found an improvement for their system and I believe this is
fantastic. Since so many who dislike DCC have gone with Rail Lynx, they would
be glad to get this information.
If you don't know about Rail Lynx, go visit their site:
http://www.rail-lynx.com/
I don't give a flying floop what the heck you believe. As I replied to SO MANY
e-mails already, the whole point is that I have tried several DCC layouts and
was sold on it until I tried Rail Lynx. I liked RL's ability and feel better
than DCC. Problem was that RL wouldn't support "Standard DC" locos on it's own.
That's when I decided to try it on top of a DCC system that supported DC locos
too. Guess what? It worked and solved the whole problem of not NEEDING to put
decoders into everything!
To those who don't get it: NO RECIEVER WILL FIT INTO AN HO SPEEDER!!!!! NOT
DCC. NOT RAIL LYNX. NOT NOBODY!!!!!!
IT MUST BE RUN FROM REGULAR DC. THERE ISN'T ENOUGH ROOM! it wouldn't matter if
the decoder was 1/8 of an inch square, there isn't any room for it!
THAT WASN'T THE POINT, SO BEFORE YOU CRITICISE ME OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THROWING A
NEW IDEA INTO THE RING, READ THE FREAKING POST AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING
SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, now that I've got that said.....
I have nothing to do with the group who makes Rail Lynx. I simply liked it
better for my own operation but didn't want to buy a decoder for EVERYTHING I
own. Do you understand?
It seems several who have flamed me didn't bother to read or understand that
Rail Lynx is based on a DC power supply. They only mention that it will work on
an AC power system such as DCC. I'm sure they aren't pushing the idea since
they want people to buy their stuff exclusively. I had mentioned to the, now
deceased, RL partner about adding a AC/DC power supply to their line.. AC at
16volts pulsed and a variable DC power supply with walkaround control for
standard locos. He blew it off like a bad cold!
An AC/DC system (like the old high frequency AC continuous lighting circuits)
would allow standard equipment to run on a walkaround throttle while the
"better" Rail Lynx equipped locos could run wireless.
This is the whole point of my post in the first place, but I guess it never
came across that way since it is a simple concept, but gets lost in the
translation. I argued with a friend (who uses Rail Lynx) about this very
subject and he kept arguing back like I was putting RL down! I kept after him
trying to impress that I was trying to improve it's ability. After several
hours of yelling, he finally understood what I meant when I drove home (mad)
and drove back with my MRC Command 2000 and hooked it up to a test track to
prove my point. On that track we ran 1 DC loco, 2 DCC locos and his Rail Lynx
RS3. When he saw what I proved, he was blown away! All 4 locos ran completely
independently of each other, and I purposely coupled locos of different control
and ran them together as well as against each other to show him the
possibilities.
I don't want to piss off any DCC committed people, but for those who are stuck
in a rut like I was, this may be the solution. I have friends with DC, DCC and
Rail Lynx locos and they all like to run at my house. My current layout can
only partially operate all types by being tricky with the block controls; and
it's a pain in the butt!
I can't be bothered trying to explain this anymore since the only people who
are moaning and flaming are DCC users.. and they don't need this info since
they are already using DCC. People who like Rail Lynx but can't run DC locos or
DCC locos NEED this info.
One Rail Lynx user already e-mailed me thanking me for bothering to post the
info and is thrilled that he will now be able to run other equipment that has
sat on the shelf for the past few years.
David Harris
as your main point is that you can run DCC and RaiLynx together, and
since you can control a DC engine with the DCC system, you can have all
three types running simultaneously on the same layout - kewl ;-)
David
Train Man
Caseycam2 wrote:
>
> Ok, since all of you OBVIOUSLY missed the point.
No, We got the point.
>
> I agree that RAIL LYNX alone is INCAPABLE OF RUNNING DC LOCOS AS IT IS SOLD AND
> ADVERTISED! I found an improvement for their system and I believe this is
> fantastic. Since so many who dislike DCC have gone with Rail Lynx, they would
> be glad to get this information.
Your statement was that MRC was the only DCC system capable of running a
DC loco. Go back to your original post if you don't believe that.
>
> If you don't know about Rail Lynx, go visit their site:
> http://www.rail-lynx.com/
Went there. Site is almost 4 years old since it's last update. Even read
their online manual. Their comparason of themselves to 'older' dcc
systems shows their ambition of staying in business. The decoders
(sorry, recievers) are huge and must still be wired into the train AND a
line of sight is needed for the IR reciever, but yes, you already knew
that. The de- I mean recievers are twice the price of what some 4
function dcc decoders can be had for, but again, you already know that.
Throttle/Transmitter prices are comparable. Even if I were starting
anew, I doubt I'd be impressed.
>
> I don't give a flying floop what the heck you believe. As I replied to SO MANY
> e-mails already, the whole point is that I have tried several DCC layouts and
> was sold on it until I tried Rail Lynx. I liked RL's ability and feel better
> than DCC. Problem was that RL wouldn't support "Standard DC" locos on it's own.
> That's when I decided to try it on top of a DCC system that supported DC locos
> too. Guess what? It worked and solved the whole problem of not NEEDING to put
> decoders into everything!
The question I have is this (besides what's a floop?).. If the only
connection to the track is for the power (no commands sent through the
rails) and your connection to the engines reciever is IR, Why don't they
(your RL buddies) just bring thier transmitters with their trains? Feel
free to correct me if I've mis-understood how the system works.
>
> To those who don't get it: NO RECIEVER WILL FIT INTO AN HO SPEEDER!!!!! NOT
> DCC. NOT RAIL LYNX. NOT NOBODY!!!!!!
> IT MUST BE RUN FROM REGULAR DC. THERE ISN'T ENOUGH ROOM! it wouldn't matter if
> the decoder was 1/8 of an inch square, there isn't any room for it!
>
> THAT WASN'T THE POINT, SO BEFORE YOU CRITICISE ME OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THROWING A
> NEW IDEA INTO THE RING, READ THE FREAKING POST AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING
> SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chill. The criticism isn't of you, it's your blanket statement that this
RL system 'blows dcc out of the water'. That's just plain BULL. I would
defy even the makers of Rail Lynx to support that statement. We've read
your posts. If you can't take what comes back after a statement like
that, you shouldn't make the statements.
>
> OK, now that I've got that said.....
>
> I have nothing to do with the group who makes Rail Lynx. I simply liked it
> better for my own operation but didn't want to buy a decoder for EVERYTHING I
> own. Do you understand?
>
> It seems several who have flamed me didn't bother to read or understand that
> Rail Lynx is based on a DC power supply. They only mention that it will work on
> an AC power system such as DCC. I'm sure they aren't pushing the idea since
> they want people to buy their stuff exclusively. I had mentioned to the, now
> deceased, RL partner about adding a AC/DC power supply to their line.. AC at
> 16volts pulsed and a variable DC power supply with walkaround control for
> standard locos. He blew it off like a bad cold!
Oh THERE's encouragement for continued support.
>
> An AC/DC system (like the old high frequency AC continuous lighting circuits)
> would allow standard equipment to run on a walkaround throttle while the
> "better" Rail Lynx equipped locos could run wireless.
>
> This is the whole point of my post in the first place, but I guess it never
> came across that way since it is a simple concept, but gets lost in the
> translation. I argued with a friend (who uses Rail Lynx) about this very
> subject and he kept arguing back like I was putting RL down! I kept after him
> trying to impress that I was trying to improve it's ability. After several
> hours of yelling, he finally understood what I meant when I drove home (mad)
> and drove back with my MRC Command 2000 and hooked it up to a test track to
> prove my point. On that track we ran 1 DC loco, 2 DCC locos and his Rail Lynx
> RS3. When he saw what I proved, he was blown away! All 4 locos ran completely
> independently of each other, and I purposely coupled locos of different control
> and ran them together as well as against each other to show him the
> possibilities.
>
> I don't want to piss off any DCC committed people, but for those who are stuck
> in a rut like I was, this may be the solution. I have friends with DC, DCC and
> Rail Lynx locos and they all like to run at my house. My current layout can
> only partially operate all types by being tricky with the block controls; and
> it's a pain in the butt!
>
> I can't be bothered trying to explain this anymore since the only people who
> are moaning and flaming are DCC users.. and they don't need this info since
> they are already using DCC. People who like Rail Lynx but can't run DC locos or
> DCC locos NEED this info.
The only person Moaning here sir, is you. You've made the entire issue
of command control (of any sort) MUCH more difficult than it needs to
be. As I stated in an earlier post, I couldn't care less how you run
your trains. You can pull them around with a string for that matter. It
doesn't make any difference to any of us. Your trains, your layout, your
money.
Jeff
Jeff Scarbrough
wrote:
> DCC is getting cheaper,
>more advanced, and becoming a huge widely-accepted standard.
This is the crux of the biscuit...when RailLynx decides to retire,
where will you get parts? Same place you get Astrac receivers, I
imagine...
DCC is a ~standard~ and someone will always be making parts for it,
even if Bernd, Jim, AJ and Don all retire to Aruba together...
Jeff "no longer single-handed" Scarbrough Proud Charter Member
Athens, Georgia CEO and Section Gang, Piedmont and Southern Railroad
je...@negia.net http://members.home.net/serr/
Paul Welsh
original post with technical comments. It sounded *exactly* like the
pitches for get-rich-quick schemes I get spammed with all the time. Just
look at the subject line. Also, for this post alone:
o ALL CAPS sprinkled in for emphasis.
o Lots of excalmation points!!!!!
o Testimonials: "One Rail Lynx user already e-mailed me thanking me for
bothering to post the info and is thrilled that he will now be able to
run other equipment that has sat on the shelf for the past few years."
o Demonize the critics: "They only mention that it will work on an AC
power system such as DCC. I'm sure they aren't pushing the idea since
they want people to buy their stuff exclusively."
o Breathless excitement: "As I replied to SO MANY e-mails already,..."
"When he saw what I proved, he was blown away!"
o Hype: "I found an improvement for their system and I believe this is
fantastic."
--
O O
o ___
___|_|0|___ Paul Welsh
| 000 0 | exd...@bellatlantic.net
= oo---oo =
---Original Message---
Edward A. Oates
But html is considered rude :)
Caseycam2 is simply incorrect in his judgments of DCC capabilities. He is
correct in that if you already have RailLynx and want to run DC equipment,
the addition of an inexpensive DCC system like the MRC one will do the trick
and allow you to run DCC, too.
Basically, what he is saying is that if you want to add the ability to run
DC and DCC equipment to your RailLynx system, buy a DCC system and then run
your RailLynx equipment on that while you convert over to DCC completely.
With that statement, we can all agree.
What many of us don't agree with is that if you have a DCC system, you
should augment it with RailLynx. The only thing blown away here is logic.
There is no reason why anyone who doesn't already have RailLynx would buy it
today. None. Nada. Zip! The decoders (receivers?) are $50 each and
1.3"x.625"x.25" in size compared to a DH121 at 1.21"x.66"x.21" at $16 or a
DZ121 .675"x.38"x.18" for $36 (prices from LoysToys).
Ed.
in article tsfh78n...@corp.supernews.com, Jon Miller at at...@inow.com
wrote on 10/12/01 9:34 PM:
> Of course if you had dumped a grand or so into an obsolete and one
> manufacture system that will probably only be around for a few more years,
> what would you do?
>
>
--
Joe Ellis
>I'm actually surprised by the number of people who replied to your
>original post with technical comments. It sounded *exactly* like the
>pitches for get-rich-quick schemes I get spammed with all the time. Just
>look at the subject line. Also, for this post alone:
>
>o ALL CAPS sprinkled in for emphasis.
>
>o Lots of excalmation points!!!!!
>
>o Testimonials: "One Rail Lynx user already e-mailed me thanking me for
>bothering to post the info and is thrilled that he will now be able to
>run other equipment that has sat on the shelf for the past few years."
>
>o Demonize the critics: "They only mention that it will work on an AC
>power system such as DCC. I'm sure they aren't pushing the idea since
>they want people to buy their stuff exclusively."
>
>o Breathless excitement: "As I replied to SO MANY e-mails already,..."
>"When he saw what I proved, he was blown away!"
>
>o Hype: "I found an improvement for their system and I believe this is
>fantastic."
Well, I'm glad someone else noticed. <<grin>>
Actually, that's exactly _why_ I responded in such detail. It sure sounded
like spam to me, too... and there's no better way to deal with it than
confronting it head-on with facts.
BTW, that little Lenz chip (LE077XF) I was talking about for his speeder?
It measures .372" width x .544" length x .138 thick. Since HO wheelsets
(well, the one I have, anyway...) are .568 back to back, it seems pretty
clear there _is_ enough room for one in a speeder. My inital guess on
placement would be to put it vertical in or behind the seat (perhaps part
of the seat back). If needed, you could carve out the backs of the figures
in the seat. That approach might not hide it _completely_, but it would be
a good start.
I'd still just run it on address 0, myself. <<grin>>
--
Joe Ellis € CEO Bethlehem-Ares Railroad
___a________n_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_n______
___|8 8B| ___ /::::: / /::::X/ /:::::/ /:::::/||
||__BARR| | | /::::::/ /:::::X /:::::/ /:::::/ ||
----------------------------------------------------------------
[(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)] |_________________________| [(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Caseycam2
and don't mis-spell every third word! I actually bothered to log off and take
over 40 minutes to type out the original post, edit it and try to make it very
clear. One of my side jobs is as an editor, so I pride myself in making a clear
presentation! Sadly, my AOL newsreader isn't exactly "editorial quality" but
works well enough for my usual reading and short replies. The small text area
and lack of spell checker can make even the best writer look like a child.
For those who don't know me, I've been in this hobby for over 25 years and
remember both DCC and RL back when they were REAL BAD. My custom models &
decals in N, HO, O and G are VERY well known in my area and my layout is
visited by many regulars and occasional "well known" members of the industry.
Granted, Maybe I should have made a better introduction to what I was saying,
but I still feel that the RL system is much more fun and easier to use based on
experience. Most people haven't used their system and therefore are hard
pressed to give a fair evaluation or comparison. The RL "company" IS small, and
that was a big concern for me as well; but the enjoyment I had using their
system was unbelievable. I tried hard to pursuade my friends from buying the RL
equipment with the same comments; "What if it breaks?", "What if they stop
making equipment?", etc. but after trying it, I'm glad they didn't listen. I
wanted to convince them to go DCC, and System One would have filled the bill
GREAT for their layouts, but they didn't like the huge control with all those
buttons.
My research of the systems was quite thorough based on the information a
friend and I were given at different train shows (Timonium, Dover and the "big"
Vermont show) and during layout visits. I can't take the blame for the bad DCC
info since I consulted many sources (show "experts" and literature) and none
mentioned "Channel 00" for standard DC locos. If I'm wrong as it appears, I
appologise profusely for the slander I imposed on the DCC community.
Curious though, If DCC is really so easy, why did they need to publish a book
on it? Answer: Those who use it think it's easy after they learn it but newbies
are full of questions and afraid of it.
I'd like to put this to bed now. But I need to reference a few comments:
Yes, the Rail Lynx web site hasn't been updated recently. Their newer receivers
are MUCH smaller than those advertised on the site, and several other upgrades
have happened in the past 2 years. I never even looked at their webpage before
posting since I had just read through my friends current catalog and
instructions.
That Lenz (LE077xf) is very small. But as big as HO is compared to N, an HO
speeder is still too small unless you want to see it. I'm sure many N scalers
think that HO modelers are spoiled with "all that room", but we still have our
limitations. HO modelers think O and G guys are spoiled! Guess what? G modelers
still want more room to put sound, batteries, R/C, and other things and can't
have it all either! Why not just throw it all away and go buy 1:1 scale? Oh,
Right! We don't have enough room or money for the track and equipment! :-)
Lastly; I have had SEVERAL private replies so far thanking me for the
information I provided since they were either undecided about bothering with
DCC or staying with DC & blocks. One guy wrote, "Read your letter, that sounds
fantastic! Now if they only made something like this that would fit on N
SCALE." (thanks GL)
So.. The moral of the story for posting:
Even if you think your idea or discovery is great, read, re-read then give your
post to someone else to read before you post it.
The moral for replys:
Never ASSUME.. you make an ASS out of U and ME.
SPAMMERS usually don't tell you who they are like I did. They also usually
don't reply or tell you to flame them publicly if you want. I did tell you to
go try the system before putting it down though. Shame on you! :-)
Can't we all just get along? Let's let it end here. I KNOW enough about DCC now
to write another book on it.
Bill (not Casey.. that was my former store & brother's name)
PS: If any readers of this are in North Jersey (Passaic/Bergen area) and would
like to demonstrate their DCC's and see what I mean about RL, feel free to
e-mail me. I'd like some other opinions from people who have been using DCC. If
their DCC system is better, Maybe I'll go for that instead to save money on
decoders but I need channel 00 so I can run those little "standard DC"
critters! Thanks.
Charles A Davis
>
SNIP
> My research of the systems was quite thorough based on the information a
> friend and I were given at different train shows (Timonium, Dover and the "big"
> Vermont show) and during layout visits. I can't take the blame for the bad DCC
> info since I consulted many sources (show "experts" and literature) and none
> mentioned "Channel 00" for standard DC locos. If I'm wrong as it appears, I
> appologise profusely for the slander I imposed on the DCC community.
>
SNIP
One thing that you haven't picked up on. The 'Chanel 00' method of
operation of 'conventional' motors, is a 'Sometimes passable' "work
around". It is DEATH for any 'high quality' 'Insturment grade (coreless
rotor) motors' [Read "Those SPECIAL, hand built projects"].
Its NOT a "Works well all the time, with any equipment" thing.
Chuck D.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # out of service
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- c...@sutherlin-va.com
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594-3819 Voice # (434) 799-5803
Train Man
Charles A Davis wrote:
>
> Caseycam2 wrote:
> >
> SNIP
>
> > My research of the systems was quite thorough based on the information a
> > friend and I were given at different train shows (Timonium, Dover and the "big"
> > Vermont show) and during layout visits. I can't take the blame for the bad DCC
> > info since I consulted many sources (show "experts" and literature) and none
> > mentioned "Channel 00" for standard DC locos. If I'm wrong as it appears, I
> > appologise profusely for the slander I imposed on the DCC community.
> >
> SNIP
>
> One thing that you haven't picked up on. The 'Chanel 00' method of
> operation of 'conventional' motors, is a 'Sometimes passable' "work
> around". It is DEATH for any 'high quality' 'Insturment grade (coreless
> rotor) motors' [Read "Those SPECIAL, hand built projects"].
>
> Its NOT a "Works well all the time, with any equipment" thing.
THAT's going to be true on ANY DCC channel 00 throttle INCLUDING the MRC
one.
Good point.
Jeff
st...@1earth.net
wrote:
> I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to DCC
>is like comparing DC to DCC!
>
No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
and common method of HO scale control.
Terry Flynn
For up to date HO scale model railway standards go to
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/trainstandards/index.html
Includes extra finescale standards improved P87 and correct wagon weight formulae.
Pac Man
st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bcec039...@news.1earth.net>...
>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:29:58 -0700, "Jon Miller" <at...@inow.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>> I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to
DCC
>>is like comparing DC to DCC!
>>
>No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
>require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
>and common method of HO scale control.
I think that was the point. That the difference between DCC and Rail Lynx
is like the difference between DCC & DC.
Besides that, I do take issue with your statement "DC is cheaper compared to
both systems". It is not always cheaper. At my club, before we moved &
started building our new layout, we did a cost analysis of DC vs. DCC. We
figured we would save approx. $20,000.00 by using DCC. The cost of wire and
toggles for a 137'x50' HO scale layout is mind boggling. We figured on 10
mainline cabs (we had 8 at our old place), plus all the various yard cabs
and branch lines all over the place.
Now, are we actually saving $20,000? No, probably not. I figure we are
using a lot more wire than we planned to, but that still puts us ahead of
the game. I still have the Excel files somewhere that had the breakdown of
costs. I can e-mail 'em to ya' if you want.
Paul A. Cutler III
Mechanical Dept.
South Shore Model Railway Club, Hingham, MA
st...@1earth.net
>
>st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bcec039...@news.1earth.net>...
>>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:29:58 -0700, "Jon Miller" <at...@inow.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to
>DCC
>>>is like comparing DC to DCC!
>>>
>>No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
>>require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
>>and common method of HO scale control.
>
>
>I think that was the point. That the difference between DCC and Rail Lynx
>is like the difference between DCC & DC.
>
>Besides that, I do take issue with your statement "DC is cheaper compared to
>both systems". It is not always cheaper. At my club, before we moved &
>started building our new layout, we did a cost analysis of DC vs. DCC. We
>figured we would save approx. $20,000.00 by using DCC. The cost of wire and
>toggles for a 137'x50' HO scale layout is mind boggling. We figured on 10
>mainline cabs (we had 8 at our old place), plus all the various yard cabs
>and branch lines all over the place.
You estimate is out by at least 1000 times. How did you arrive at such
a unrealistic figure. Wiring is not that expensive. At 25c metre for
wire, the extra cost of wiring even such a large layout plus the cab
selection switches would not be greater than the higher cost of DDC
controllers, at least $100 each, for your example more than $1000. Add
to this the cost of the decoders for locomotives, at $16 plus, for
your large layout yould have more than 20, theres another $3600 at
least. Sound decoders means $36000. For your large layout the cost of
DC can be made less by dividing your mainline into 2 divisions, 5 cabs
per division, then you halve the extra wiring and switches. DCC
cheaper, no way.
>Now, are we actually saving $20,000? No, probably not. I figure we are
>using a lot more wire than we planned to, but that still puts us ahead of
>the game. I still have the Excel files somewhere that had the breakdown of
>costs. I can e-mail 'em to ya' if you want.
>
>Paul A. Cutler III
>Mechanical Dept.
>South Shore Model Railway Club, Hingham, MA
>
>
>
>
Terry Flynn
Ron Herfurth
toggles, rotary switches, wire, etc then the cost of a large layout will be
high. If you shop the internet electronics discounters you'll do better.
But there's also the time and effort to install DC system on a large layout.
The time savings alone may justify DCC. I don't know how much extra wireless
throttles would be for DC but for Digitrax it's about $25 extra per throttle
and a single $125 receiver can support 10 throttles. The increased
functionality may justify DCC. And I've run on club layouts with old
fashioned block control: "why won't my train run?", "who's running my
train", "how does the reverse loop work". If I want that much fun I'll beat
my hand with a hammer.
Any club member that has a compatible DCC throttle can bring it; the club
may not need to buy any.
As far as I'm concerned decoders are free; that is I don't even count the
cost. I put at least $15 dollars of detail parts, paint, and decals on all
my engines, or I buy Proto or Atlas for $60 each instead of Athearn at $30
each. A DH-121 is just another part. I'm replacing my 50 cent 5 chime
plastic horns with 5 dollar brass once since most of my plastic ones are
down a few chimes. No one ever rants about the cost of plastic vs. brass
horns; why rant about DC vs. DCC either? Buy the one YOU feel gives you the
most enjoyment.
Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is a
lot less than DCC. In all honesty the reason I play down the cost of DCC is
because I didn't have a choice; at the rate I'm going I'd have spent at
least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
Put a dollar figure on that.
"of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong"
snip
> >>No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
> >>require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
> >>and common method of HO scale control.
> >
snip
demetre_argiro
>........Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is a
>lot less than DCC.............. I'd have spent at
>least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
>minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
>Put a dollar figure on that...........
Amen Amen Amen!!
I would rather take a beating than muck about with all that electrical crap. I want
to run trains, not learn all about how to wire a railroad for fifteen cabs. There is
positively no comparison between the aggravation of block control and the ease of
DCC. Block control is like paddling a canoe for 16 months from New Orleans to
Minneapolis, while DCC is like going on Northwest; nonstop 2hr 46mn.
If you have a small home railroad you don't need to buy the Digitrax Top-O-The-Line
system.
You can get a less expensive one that still works the same and has full
interchangability and upgradeability with/to the Super Chief. The UT1 and UT2 are
simple, easy to use throttles that are restricted to two digit addressing and basic
consisting. If you want to go to four digit addressing and universal consisting then
just get a DT300 throttle and VOILA! you've just upgraded your system to the Empire
Builder level. If you decide that this still is not enough then get a DCS100 command
station and you now have a Chief. The old DB150 command station can be used as a
booster and to control reverse loops and such stuff. Add a DT400 later and now you
have a Super Chief, but didn't have to shell out the BigBucks all at one time.
Regards........Froggy
Demetre (a frog too far) Argiro
Gulf Central Railway, a proud member of the JRAG.
argi...@mindspring.com
Edward A. Oates
trains, especially with several operators. I don't know of any prototype
railroads where when the engine crossed some arbitrary boundary you had to
run out of the cab and flip some toggles before you could continue. You
drive the train whose cab you are in, period. With DCC, you do just that.
You drive your train.
Ed.
in article 3bd5b6e5...@news.mindspring.com, Demetre Argiro at Demetre
Argiro wrote on 10/23/01 12:08 PM:
--
Pac Man
st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bd5744a...@news.1earth.net>...
>On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:06:14 -0400, "Pac Man" <cut...@tp.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bcec039...@news.1earth.net>...
>>>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:29:58 -0700, "Jon Miller" <at...@inow.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to
>>DCC
>>>>is like comparing DC to DCC!
>>>>
>>>No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
>>>require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
>>>and common method of HO scale control.
>>
>>
>>I think that was the point. That the difference between DCC and Rail Lynx
>>is like the difference between DCC & DC.
>>
>>Besides that, I do take issue with your statement "DC is cheaper compared
to
>>both systems". It is not always cheaper. At my club, before we moved &
>>started building our new layout, we did a cost analysis of DC vs. DCC. We
>>figured we would save approx. $20,000.00 by using DCC. The cost of wire
and
>>toggles for a 137'x50' HO scale layout is mind boggling. We figured on 10
>>mainline cabs (we had 8 at our old place), plus all the various yard cabs
>>and branch lines all over the place.
>
>You estimate is out by at least 1000 times. How did you arrive at such
>a unrealistic figure.
Let me start off by apologizing, $20,000.00 was the cost of DC block
control. DCC costs were approx. $11,000.00. Our savings would be only
$8,000.00. (See what happens when you rely on memory alone? :-) ) But
$8,000 is still $8,000 the club doesn't have to spend.
At our old club, we had 8 50-toggle cabs. At our new club, which is three
times bigger, we planned on having 10 60-toggle cabs. At the old club, we
had 5 major yards (10+ tracks); at our new club we plan on having 7 major
yards (10+ tracks). Each track would have a toggle, and double ended yards
tracks would be split in half with another toggle, plus another cab. We
plan on 3 double ended yards (4 stubs). Each stub was to have it's own
engine terminal panel. Each yard panel would have about 30 toggles, each
engine panel would have about 25. That's 1,000 DPDT bat handled ON-ON
toggles. At $7.21 ea. (1998 prices), that's $7,210.00. We figured we would
have 160 mainline switches, controlled by both the dispatcher (160) and two
divisional towers (80 ea.) plus another 150-odd locally controlled switches
in the aisle plus the interlockings in the yard limits of each yard (10 ea.
x 7). That equals another 540 toggles at $7.21 ea. for a total of
$3,893.40. Combined, that's $11,103.40. The electrical committee estimated
that we would need approx. 14,000 feet of 12 AWG wire at $.55 per foot
(1998), (plus 18 AWG feeders), for a total of $7,727.16. Throw in about
$200+ worth of LEDs and you get $19,139.38.
Now, with DCC, costs of wire drops to about $2,000. One command station is
$285, 12 boosters at $199.99 ea is $2399.88. 10 UT1 throttles at $79.99 ea,
plus 10 DT100 at $149.99 ea equals $2299.80. Grand total = $4,984.68. Wire
costs were guestimated to be around $2,000.00 (720 ft of 12 AWG @ $.55 a
foot + 720 ft of 6 conductor (phone) @ $1.00 per foot + 5000 ft of 18 AWG
hook up wire @ $.17 per foot = $850). Toss in 40 stationary decoders for
switch machines @ $79.99 ea. for $3,199.96 for a sub total of $10,150.64.
Plus, $1000.00 for fascia connector for plugging in. That's $11,150.64.
Please note that the cost of decoders are paid by the individual member, and
not the club. Even so, we could decoder 500 engines @ $16 per ($8,000) and
still come out even. Even so, we aren't forcing the membership to spend the
money. Those who want to run their stuff have to pay for decoders. Those
who don't have the cash can simply use other people's engines.
> Wiring is not that expensive. At 25c metre for
>wire, the extra cost of wiring even such a large layout plus the cab
>selection switches would not be greater than the higher cost of DDC
>controllers, at least $100 each, for your example more than $1000. Add
>to this the cost of the decoders for locomotives, at $16 plus, for
>your large layout yould have more than 20, theres another $3600 at
>least. Sound decoders means $36000. For your large layout the cost of
>DC can be made less by dividing your mainline into 2 divisions, 5 cabs
>per division, then you halve the extra wiring and switches. DCC
>cheaper, no way.
Yes, way. And what's the deal with bringing up sound decoders??? Try to do
that on straight DC for $100.per engine. And splitting the cabs into two
divisions would be nice, in fact that was the plan. But they would all
still be located on the "observation deck" to get them off the floor,
leaving us more room for our 6750 square foot layout.
Paul Cutler III
Mechanical Department
South Shore Model Railway Club, Hingham, MA
Train Man
Is this US Dollars? I'll admit that wiring a layout of this size for cab
control is a very costly expense but I have to question your numbers (if
in fact they are US$). If your electrical dept is spending $7.21 per
toggle and $0.55/ft for #12 wire, I would be looking at their homes for
recent improvements, in their driveways for new cars, or at thier roster
for new brass. Something seems mighty strange about that figure,
especially in the quantity you state.
>
> Now, with DCC, costs of wire drops to about $2,000. One command station is
> $285, 12 boosters at $199.99 ea is $2399.88. 10 UT1 throttles at $79.99 ea,
> plus 10 DT100 at $149.99 ea equals $2299.80. Grand total = $4,984.68. Wire
> costs were guestimated to be around $2,000.00 (720 ft of 12 AWG @ $.55 a
> foot + 720 ft of 6 conductor (phone) @ $1.00 per foot + 5000 ft of 18 AWG
> hook up wire @ $.17 per foot = $850). Toss in 40 stationary decoders for
> switch machines @ $79.99 ea. for $3,199.96 for a sub total of $10,150.64.
> Plus, $1000.00 for fascia connector for plugging in. That's $11,150.64.
>
> Please note that the cost of decoders are paid by the individual member, and
> not the club. Even so, we could decoder 500 engines @ $16 per ($8,000) and
> still come out even. Even so, we aren't forcing the membership to spend the
> money. Those who want to run their stuff have to pay for decoders. Those
> who don't have the cash can simply use other people's engines.
I think your electrical committee better do some shopping, UT1 throttles
can be had for $60. It seems like I paid $149 for my DT400. And since we
are talking Digitax here, you would probably be far ahead if you
purchased 12 Empire builder sets with DT300s rather than 12 seperate
boosters and throttles, especially at your prices. That way you get at
least 12 premium decoders for 'club' engines as well as 12 of the plug
panels.
>
> > Wiring is not that expensive. At 25c metre for
What kind of wire and WHERE?
Jeff
Pac Man
>control is a very costly expense but I have to question your numbers (if
>in fact they are US$).
Yes, it's in US$. Notice in my sig. that it said "Hingham, MA"; MA usually
means Massachusetts, USA. :-)
>If your electrical dept is spending $7.21 per
>toggle and $0.55/ft for #12 wire, I would be looking at their homes for
>recent improvements, in their driveways for new cars, or at thier roster
>for new brass. Something seems mighty strange about that figure,
>especially in the quantity you state.
Well, the electrical chairman *does* have a brand new 2001 Mustang... ^_^
Seriously, he is the one that got the numbers back in 1998. I know he gets
the Mouser catalog (plus others), and he does go to You-Do-It Electronics (a
semi-famous electronics supply house on the slightly more famous Rt. 128
"Technology Highway" around Boston) quite often. All I know is that I never
checked his figures, it wasn't my job (that is for the BOD). Even so, I'm
glad we have gone DCC, even if it ends up costing more moolah.
>I think your electrical committee better do some shopping, UT1 throttles
>can be had for $60. It seems like I paid $149 for my DT400. And since we
>are talking Digitax here, you would probably be far ahead if you
>purchased 12 Empire builder sets with DT300s rather than 12 seperate
>boosters and throttles, especially at your prices. That way you get at
>least 12 premium decoders for 'club' engines as well as 12 of the plug
>panels.
Well, we certainly don't pay those prices *now*. In fact, we never did.
However, the electrical chairman put the worst case scenario before the
membership (full retail), and we still voted in favor of it. BTW, don't
forget that in 1998, UT1, UT2, BT1, DT200, DT100IR, & the DT100R were the
only throttles available (though the DT400's were rumored).
Edward A. Oates
10/23/01 6:15 PM:
Thanks for the itemized list. I won't quibble with your pricing. Some folks
seem to forget how fast costs escalate when you buy a thousand of anything.
To paraphrase Ev Dirkson,
A billion here, a billion there. After a while, it adds up to real money.
Ed.
> Yes, way. And what's the deal with bringing up sound decoders??? Try to do
> that on straight DC for $100.per engine. And splitting the cabs into two
> divisions would be nice, in fact that was the plan. But they would all
> still be located on the "observation deck" to get them off the floor,
> leaving us more room for our 6750 square foot layout.
>
> Paul Cutler III
> Mechanical Department
> South Shore Model Railway Club, Hingham, MA
> www.ssmrc.org
>
>
>
>
--
Ron Herfurth
"Pac Man" <cut...@tp.net> wrote in message
news:3bd61...@news.cybertours.com...
> control. DCC costs were approx. $11,000.00. Our savings would be only
> $8,000.00. (See what happens when you rely on memory alone? :-) ) But
> $8,000 is still $8,000 the club doesn't have to spend.
>
> At our old club, we had 8 50-toggle cabs. At our new club, which is three
> times bigger, we planned on having 10 60-toggle cabs. At the old club, we
> had 5 major yards (10+ tracks); at our new club we plan on having 7 major
> yards (10+ tracks). Each track would have a toggle, and double ended
yards
> tracks would be split in half with another toggle, plus another cab. We
> plan on 3 double ended yards (4 stubs). Each stub was to have it's own
> engine terminal panel. Each yard panel would have about 30 toggles, each
> engine panel would have about 25. That's 1,000 DPDT bat handled ON-ON
> toggles.
So figuring 1 hour of labor to install each toggle (designing the control
panel, building the control panel, running the wire, soldering the wire,
etc. etc. and trouble shooting) 1,000 man hours / 50 work sessions a year =
20 man hours per work session to get operational in 1 year.
right
our small club in charlottesville va. and the club in Houston each added DCC
to existing common rail layouts in a matter of months. Both can be switched
between DC and DCC. houston used 1 cheif and 4 boosters but may have spent
less per member than we did ...it's just tooooo easy
At $7.21 ea. (1998 prices), that's $7,210.00. We figured we would
> have 160 mainline switches, controlled by both the dispatcher (160) and
two
> divisional towers (80 ea.) plus another 150-odd locally controlled
switches
> in the aisle plus the interlockings in the yard limits of each yard (10
ea.
> x 7). That equals another 540 toggles at $7.21 ea. for a total of
> $3,893.40. Combined, that's $11,103.40. The electrical committee
estimated
> that we would need approx. 14,000 feet of 12 AWG wire at $.55 per foot
> (1998), (plus 18 AWG feeders), for a total of $7,727.16. Throw in about
> $200+ worth of LEDs and you get $19,139.38.
>
> Now, with DCC, costs of wire drops to about $2,000. One command station
is
> $285, 12 boosters at $199.99 ea is $2399.88. 10 UT1 throttles at $79.99
ea,
> plus 10 DT100 at $149.99 ea equals $2299.80. Grand total = $4,984.68.
Wire
> costs were guestimated to be around $2,000.00 (720 ft of 12 AWG @ $.55 a
> foot + 720 ft of 6 conductor (phone) @ $1.00 per foot + 5000 ft of 18 AWG
> hook up wire @ $.17 per foot = $850). Toss in 40 stationary decoders for
> switch machines @ $79.99 ea. for $3,199.96 for a sub total of $10,150.64.
> Plus, $1000.00 for fascia connector for plugging in.
If you go wire less you can greatly reduce the number of plug in panels. We
needed the panels we installed inside every pop up hatch and nook and crany
in the layout till wireless came out; most panels never got used after that.
That's $11,150.64.
>
> Please note that the cost of decoders are paid by the individual member,
and
> not the club. Even so, we could decoder 500 engines @ $16 per ($8,000)
and
> still come out even. Even so, we aren't forcing the membership to spend
the
> money. Those who want to run their stuff have to pay for decoders. Those
> who don't have the cash can simply use other people's engines.
>
Train Man
Pac Man wrote:
>
> >Is this US Dollars? I'll admit that wiring a layout of this size for cab
> >control is a very costly expense but I have to question your numbers (if
> >in fact they are US$).
>
> Yes, it's in US$. Notice in my sig. that it said "Hingham, MA"; MA usually
> means Massachusetts, USA. :-)
Yes I did notice your sig but after I had asked the question..
>
> >If your electrical dept is spending $7.21 per
> >toggle and $0.55/ft for #12 wire, I would be looking at their homes for
> >recent improvements, in their driveways for new cars, or at thier roster
> >for new brass. Something seems mighty strange about that figure,
> >especially in the quantity you state.
>
> Well, the electrical chairman *does* have a brand new 2001 Mustang... ^_^
> Seriously, he is the one that got the numbers back in 1998. I know he gets
> the Mouser catalog (plus others), and he does go to You-Do-It Electronics (a
> semi-famous electronics supply house on the slightly more famous Rt. 128
> "Technology Highway" around Boston) quite often. All I know is that I never
> checked his figures, it wasn't my job (that is for the BOD). Even so, I'm
> glad we have gone DCC, even if it ends up costing more moolah.
You'll wonder how you ever got along without it, in about the first 5
minutes. I don't even like running analog anymore. I woudn't want to
even consider wiring a layout that size for cab control. Just too much
of a PITA. I would bring up one thing though, With Digitrax, Even the
Chief is limited (laugh) to 120 loco adresses before it starts dropping
them from the refresh stack. With a layout that size, especially with
all those yards, engine facilities, etc, you could very easilly approach
that number.
>
> >I think your electrical committee better do some shopping, UT1 throttles
> >can be had for $60. It seems like I paid $149 for my DT400. And since we
> >are talking Digitax here, you would probably be far ahead if you
> >purchased 12 Empire builder sets with DT300s rather than 12 seperate
> >boosters and throttles, especially at your prices. That way you get at
> >least 12 premium decoders for 'club' engines as well as 12 of the plug
> >panels.
>
> Well, we certainly don't pay those prices *now*. In fact, we never did.
> However, the electrical chairman put the worst case scenario before the
> membership (full retail), and we still voted in favor of it. BTW, don't
> forget that in 1998, UT1, UT2, BT1, DT200, DT100IR, & the DT100R were the
> only throttles available (though the DT400's were rumored).
I'll give you that.. I was pointing out the obvious I guess. You are
probably going to find that when starting fresh, the cost is about equal
for both. What you save on wire and toggle switches, the club members
will make up for in decoders. One big area where you'll save is startup
time. If each member has 2 or 3 locos ready to go on the first operating
night..... cool... :D Watch out for those collisions :O
Have fun,
Jeff
Jon Miller
dropping them from the refresh stack<
It would be quite rare for any layout or club to be running 120 engines
at the same time<G>. Just remember to dispatch the engine when you are not
going to use it for awhile.
Train Man
My understanding of the Digitrax system is that it doesn't matter if
they are running, ie under throttle control. If the engines are on the
track, they are being refreshed, or maybe polled would be a better word,
in a background loop. The ones that are under throttle control are moved
to the front of that loop. The limit of that loop is 120 engine decoder
adresses for the cheif and 22 for the empire builder/genisis systems. If
you add a 121st engine to the system, the command station will drop one
of the original 120 from the loop. THAT's my understanding of how it
works. It may be different on other systems, I don't know.
Jeff
Jon Miller
and your term "dropped/polled" are the same thing. A engine can stay on the
track but being "dispatched (dropped) means it is not controllable by a
throttle, it just sits there.
Froggy
>With Digitrax, Even the
>Chief is limited (laugh) to 120 loco adresses before it starts dropping
>them from the refresh stack.
There are several ways around this. If every loco in a fixed consist has the same
address, then instead of four addresses you only have one. Use advanced consisting so
that only a single consist address is in the command station. I don't like advanced
consisting but it is conceiveable that there might be one person on the MRR planet
that could benefit from it. If you use universal consisting (my favorite) then you
just need to remember to dispatch a loco when it has finished its duty.
Fritz Milhaupt
>
> Pac Man wrote:
[snip]
> > Even so, I'm
> > glad we have gone DCC, even if it ends up costing more moolah.
>
> You'll wonder how you ever got along without it, in about the first 5
> minutes. I don't even like running analog anymore.
If you ever end up going the prototypical operations route, it becomes a
no-brainer. I can't imagine enjoying a timetable and train order style
session while messing around with cab-selector and power-routing
switches.
Once you've run with command control, it's very hard to go back-- I've
run with both and voted my preference with cash spent on throttles, a
command station and decoders rather than long runs of wire and rotary
switches.
-fm
Webmaster of Rails on Wheels' web site, at: http://www.railsonwheels.com
The e-mail addresses in this message bounce to frustrate harvestbots.
See my web sites for my actual e-mail address.
Steve Moore
lack of Boosters, etc. and special wiring. Some might debate over the special wiring
issue, and I can agree with some of both side of that question. But with Rail-Lynx,
everything is in the hand throttle. No boosters, loconet, or anything else. The only
other thing you need is a decoder, or receiver as Rail-Lynx call it, in each engine,
and power to the track.
The hand throttle runs either $139.95 or $159.95 (rechargeable battery version). The
receivers are $49.95. That is more than some other "decoders", but you save on all
those boosters. So, for as little as $190.00
I am running trains. I can buy more receivers as money and needs arise. I have all
the bells and whistles of the so called DCC systems, without the cost. The IR
receptors go in the cab, (so there is no more drilling hole in the roof of your
favorite engine).
The big thing that sold me on Rail-Lynx is the hand throttle. It is wireless, and I
REALLY like the way it feels, like a real throttle to me.
Lee Nicholas uses it on his UTAH COLORADO WESTERN. That's where I first saw it. Ask
him about it.
These are my personal opinions and preferences. No verbal wars are needed. Thanks
you.
Steve Moore
Edward A. Oates
total current draw of all simultaneously running engines exceeds the booster
capacity. The same is true for DC operation. If you try to run 10 1amp
engines on a 5 amp supply, blamo: overload. DCC or DC or AC, makes no
difference. You may decide to create power districts so that you can have
fail-soft operation incase of a short, but with the new Digitrax PM4, you
can have up to 4 districts with a single booster.
There is NO special wiring, unless you mean making turnouts DCC friendly.
Well, if your turnouts work on DC, they'll work on DCC, too. The only danger
is that if there is a short, you will be putting 5 amps directly to shorted
circuit. Same is true of RailLynx.
If you mean Loconet or whatever, if you us IR or RF throttles, you don't
have any of that, either.
Sigh, another RailLynx customer who doesn't understand DCC at all.
Simply put, RailLynx is exactly like DCC, except instead of passing command
via the track, you pass it via IR through the air. You still need adequate
track power, short circuit protection, a decoder (receiver) in each and
every loco, reverse loop circuitry, etc., etc., etc., and proper feeding of
power to the track so minimize power losses through excessive length of
small guage wire or high resistance track (like nickel silver). What you
don't get with RailLynx is a standard decoder interface which allows anyone
with a NMRA decoder equiped loco to be used on any NMRA DCC command station.
And you get analog DC loco's too on most systems, and most decoders will run
on DC systems. Oh, yeah, the decoders of about 1/3 the price of receivers
($15 for DH121 vs. $45 for a receiver).
Sigh...
in article 3BD74688...@kissmethodinc.com, Steve Moore at
ki...@kissmethodinc.com wrote on 10/24/01 3:54 PM:
--
Train Man
That's possible (we are saying the same thing) but I want to make sure
that I (personally) have it clear. Not that I will ever approach 120
engine decoders on the track (wouldn't have any room for the cars) but I
will exceed the 22 limit in the engine facility alone. It is that fact
that prompted me to purchase the chief to replace the empire builder.
BTW, The chief is shipped with a limit of 22 as well, you have to change
one of the op switches for 120. We'll use the 22 number for this
example.
I am in my basement and have 1 dual throttle plugged into the system and
22 engines throughout the layout. Engines #1100 and #1101 are selected
on the throttle. The other 20 are being checked on a periodic rate.
(Basically, the system has a stack of 22 adresses and looks on the track
to see if they are still there, being used, and also checks the
throttles to see if there are new commands for the engines within the
stack.) Now, without removing any from the track, I add engine #1102 so
I have 23 total on the track. For the sake of argument, I plug in my UT1
throttle and assign 1102 to it (via 2 digit adress). What I am saying,
in the case of Digitrax 22 engine max, is that one of the remaining
original 20 will be COMPLETELY ignored by the system and CANNOT be
selected by a throttle. An engine must be physically removed from the
track so there are once again 22 total. That is all the digitrax system
is capable of looking at. This appears to be done in order of last use.
IOW, #23 on the list will be dropped from the poll. The limit exists to
keep the system from getting bogged down and hence, slowing throttle
response and the like.
If that is what you are saying, then yes, we agree.
Just to be clear, I am speaking ONLY of digitrax, not DCC in general. I
don't have experience with the other systems and they may be different,
ie, dispatch a loco to remove it from the polling list.
:-)
Jeff
Jon Miller
version). The
receivers are $49.95. That is more than some other "decoders", but you save
on all
those boosters. So, for as little as $190.00<
The street price on a Digitrax system (with a decoder) is also around
$190 (Genesis II) and additional decoders are street price of $15/16 so
where is the difference. Oh I see it, cost of decoders--50 vs 15
Steve Moore
between what most people would call traditional DCC, (Digitrax, etc.). Yes
Rail-Lynx is a digital command control system delivered by IR direct to the engine,
and not through the track.
Who needs boosters? I prefer not to have boosters. The power supply issue is the
same for systems. You must provide power districts or blocks, and enough power to
those blocks. That goes without saying. I simply chose not to add the boosters and
the extra cost. I like the Rail-Lynx system. It is completely transparent when
operating. You don't even think about it. You just run trains.
There is no need for rebuttal here. I am expressing my own personal opinions and
preferences. Thanks
Steve
Steve Moore
the feel of it. Personal preference. No need to get up set. Try it you will
like it most likely.
Steve
Jeff Scarbrough
>
>I am in my basement and have 1 dual throttle plugged into the system and
>22 engines throughout the layout. Engines #1100 and #1101 are selected
>on the throttle. The other 20 are being checked on a periodic rate.
<snip>
> What I am saying,
>in the case of Digitrax 22 engine max, is that one of the remaining
>original 20 will be COMPLETELY ignored by the system and CANNOT be
>selected by a throttle. An engine must be physically removed from the
>track so there are once again 22 total. That is all the digitrax system
>is capable of looking at. This appears to be done in order of last use.
>IOW, #23 on the list will be dropped from the poll. The limit exists to
>keep the system from getting bogged down and hence, slowing throttle
>response and the like.
Nope. Not true.
>
>If that is what you are saying, then yes, we agree.
But the premise is faulty...
>
>Just to be clear, I am speaking ONLY of digitrax, not DCC in general. I
>don't have experience with the other systems and they may be different,
>ie, dispatch a loco to remove it from the polling list.
I don't know about the others, but with Digitrax, you can have as many
locomotives on the track as you like (and you have room for). In your
example, you can only talk to 22 at one time, but the other 9,878 can
sit wherever they like. As you stated, you can set the Op Switch to
allow 120 to be addressed at one time.
If you only have the switch set to 22 and you try to address a 23rd
loco, you will get a "slots full" message. You can purge the stack or
dispatch locos from the stack to regain space. This is the problem we
had in our modular club, where people would forget to dispatch a
locomotive and by Sunday we would get the "FF" indication -- a simple
operaton with the settings and all was back to normal.
Go here http://www.digitrax.com/pdfdocs.htm and download the Chief II
manual, Section 16 has information about how the DCS-100 handles
locomtive slots.
Jeff "no longer single-handed" Scarbrough Proud Charter Member
Athens, Georgia CEO and Section Gang, Piedmont and Southern Railroad
je...@negia.net http://members.home.net/serr/
Jeff Scarbrough
<ki...@kissmethodinc.com> wrote:
>The difference is the cost of the boosters. Also, I like the throttle. I like
>the feel of it. Personal preference. No need to get up set. Try it you will
>like it most likely.
How is the difference the cost of the boosters? Do locomotives draw
less power when operated by Rail Lynx rather than DCC? I don't see
how you get around it otherwise.
Consider the ubiquitous 4x8. If I operate one locomotive on DCC, it
costs $190.00, plus a power supply. When you operate Rail Lynx on one
locomotive, it costs $190.00, plus a power supply. When we add one
locomotive, it costs $15.00 for DCC and $50.00 for Rail Lynx.
Can you show me the flaw in my accounting?
It does seem like a nice simple throttle...though I take issue witht
he quote "No 'black boxes' to buy or install" -- what does he mean by
that? If the throttle and receiver aren't black boxes, then a DCC
command station isn't one either...and that's the only difference I
can see...
Train Man
Only on the Chief.
>
> If you only have the switch set to 22 and you try to address a 23rd
> loco, you will get a "slots full" message. You can purge the stack or
> dispatch locos from the stack to regain space. This is the problem we
> had in our modular club, where people would forget to dispatch a
> locomotive and by Sunday we would get the "FF" indication -- a simple
> operaton with the settings and all was back to normal.
The premis isn't wrong, just how it is handled. My impression (now
corrected) was that the system would only service 22 (or 120) and that
was the track limit.
Jeff
Jon Miller
on the track they just can't be controlled except for 22 or 120 with the
Chief (or Super Chief, I just love that name) if it has been changed from 22
to 120
Pac Man
>If you go wire less you can greatly reduce the number of plug in panels.
We
>needed the panels we installed inside every pop up hatch and nook and crany
>in the layout till wireless came out; most panels never got used after
that.
All too true. In fact, we recently got in an order for about a dozen
DT400R's for various members who bought them (we already had the reciever).
The problem is that the club already owns 12 tethered throttles (UT1's,
DT100's, DT300, DT400). Many members have stated that they do not want to
shell out the $$ for their own throttle, so what can we do? Panels we need,
panels we'll have. <sigh>
Pac Man
usually
>> means Massachusetts, USA. :-)
>
>Yes I did notice your sig but after I had asked the question..
Isn't that always the way? <g>
>>Even so, I'm
>> glad we have gone DCC, even if it ends up costing more moolah.
>
>You'll wonder how you ever got along without it, in about the first 5
>minutes. I don't even like running analog anymore. I woudn't want to
>even consider wiring a layout that size for cab control. Just too much
>of a PITA.
Oh, yeah. We went Digitrax in 1998-9, and haven't looked back. What's
funny is that we did consider going Cabs, but the universal application of
the DCC standards from the NMRA convinced us that this was no dinosaur, and
that we wouldn't be screwed if Digitrax ever went belly up. We'd be out
some cash for the system brain and the boosters, but the wiring and the
decoders could remain almost the same (only Digitrax has the "Loconet"
wiring). BTW, we have kept one old cab panel from the old club as a warning
to others. Infact, we just might make it a display of "ayncient
technologie". :-)
>I would bring up one thing though, With Digitrax, Even the
>Chief is limited (laugh) to 120 loco adresses before it starts dropping
>them from the refresh stack. With a layout that size, especially with
>all those yards, engine facilities, etc, you could very easilly approach
>that number.
Yeah, that's why we will probably have hostlers in the engine terminals
whose job it is to make and break MU's, and to be sure that all unused locos
are "de-selected" so as to clear the "stack".
<snip>
>If each member has 2 or 3 locos ready to go on the first operating
>night..... cool... :D
We haven't had an Ops session yet, but we've had a few Open Houses (in fact,
we have one this Saturday, the 27th). The first one, we found out what "FF"
stood for, if that tells you anything. It didn't help that one guy came in
and dropped 4 RS-11's and 4 GP-38's on the layout (all with sound), and ran
them as sets. We passed 22 engines very quickly. After the day was over,
we found out about the stupid Ops switch for the 120 locos (somebody want to
tell me WHY they did that?). Since then, no major problems. Tho' we do get
some erratic operation once and a while (noise in the tracks?).
>Watch out for those collisions :O
Tell me about it. One guy decided to test how far away his radio throttle
worked, and ended up using a SP Daylight set as a bumber post, if you know
what I mean. We need signals, and how (Hellooo! Digitrax! Are you
listening?...). :-) Just kiddin' about Digitrax, I'm still amazed that the
DT400 came out at all this year. ^_^
Train Man
Pac Man wrote:
>
> >> Yes, it's in US$. Notice in my sig. that it said "Hingham, MA"; MA
> usually
> >> means Massachusetts, USA. :-)
> >
> >Yes I did notice your sig but after I had asked the question..
>
> Isn't that always the way? <g>
>bunch-o-snips...
> >Watch out for those collisions :O
>
> Tell me about it. One guy decided to test how far away his radio throttle
> worked, and ended up using a SP Daylight set as a bumber post, if you know
> what I mean. We need signals, and how (Hellooo! Digitrax! Are you
> listening?...). :-) Just kiddin' about Digitrax, I'm still amazed that the
> DT400 came out at all this year. ^_^
With me it is my poor spectrum Doodlebug. That little unit has been
slammed several times by one of my E units while I was watching another
train. They just HAD to put 2 throttles into one unit <g>....
DT400... WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT! Should have been that way from the get
go...
Have fun,
Jeff
Steve Moore
this. I could answer you, and you can rebut. If you want serious answers, get a
hold of Lee Nicholas, or Shawn at Rail-Lynx. You like yours, and I like mine.
Let's leave it at that.
Steve
Jeff Scarbrough wrote:
Rail-Lynx
> > How is the difference the cost of the boosters? Do locomotives draw
> > less power when operated by Rail Lynx rather than DCC? I don't see
> > how you get around it otherwise.
Locomotives draw the same power when operated on Rail-Lynx but let's say you
need another 5-Amps of capacity, a 5-Amp regulated power supply is
approximately $35, what is the cost of a 5-Amp booster? Rail-Lynx only
requires 12V on the rails.
> > Consider the ubiquitous 4x8. If I operate one locomotive on DCC, it
> > costs $190.00, plus a power supply. When you operate Rail Lynx on one
> > locomotive, it costs $190.00, plus a power supply. When we add one
> > locomotive, it costs $15.00 for DCC and $50.00 for Rail Lynx.
> >
> > Can you show me the flaw in my accounting?
> >
> > It does seem like a nice simple throttle...though I take issue witht
> > he quote "No 'black boxes' to buy or install" -- what does he mean by
> > that? If the throttle and receiver aren't black boxes, then a DCC
> > command station isn't one either...and that's the only difference I
> > can see...
> Jeff "no longer single-handed" Scarbrough Proud Charter Member
> Athens, Georgia CEO and Section Gang, Piedmont and Southern Railroad
> je...@negia.net http://members.home.net/serr/
By that we mean there is nothing that's installed under/behind the layout.
A throttle and a receiver are a system. With other systems you need some
sort of "black box" to inject the control signal onto the rails.
Since it is only a throttle and a receiver you can take your single
locomotive and throttle and go to most other layouts and run your
locomotive.
Regards,
Shawn
-
Rail-Lynx
Shawn L. Leichliter
(610)351-0672
st...@1earth.net
>
>st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bd5744a...@news.1earth.net>...
>>On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:06:14 -0400, "Pac Man" <cut...@tp.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>st...@1earth.net wrote in message <3bcec039...@news.1earth.net>...
>>>>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:29:58 -0700, "Jon Miller" <at...@inow.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have read about Rail Lynx and it's capability. It's comparison to
>>>DCC
>>>>>is like comparing DC to DCC!
>>>>>
>>>>No its not! DC is cheaper compared to both systems and does not
>>>>require modification to your locomotives. It also is the most standard
>>>>and common method of HO scale control.
>>>
>>>
>>>I think that was the point. That the difference between DCC and Rail Lynx
>>>is like the difference between DCC & DC.
>>>
>>>Besides that, I do take issue with your statement "DC is cheaper compared
>to
>>>both systems". It is not always cheaper. At my club, before we moved &
>>>started building our new layout, we did a cost analysis of DC vs. DCC. We
>>>figured we would save approx. $20,000.00 by using DCC. The cost of wire
>and
>>>toggles for a 137'x50' HO scale layout is mind boggling. We figured on 10
>>>mainline cabs (we had 8 at our old place), plus all the various yard cabs
>>>and branch lines all over the place.
>>
>>You estimate is out by at least 1000 times. How did you arrive at such
>>a unrealistic figure.
>
>Let me start off by apologizing, $20,000.00 was the cost of DC block
>control. DCC costs were approx. $11,000.00. Our savings would be only
>$8,000.00. (See what happens when you rely on memory alone? :-) ) But
>$8,000 is still $8,000 the club doesn't have to spend.
If you use similar technology that current DCC uses for your DC block
control the cost should be about the same. A well designed automatic
DC block system would have miniminal extra wiring compared to DCC. (I
do not know of a commercial system which meets the above however)
>At our old club, we had 8 50-toggle cabs. At our new club, which is three
>times bigger, we planned on having 10 60-toggle cabs. At the old club, we
>had 5 major yards (10+ tracks); at our new club we plan on having 7 major
>yards (10+ tracks). Each track would have a toggle, and double ended yards
>tracks would be split in half with another toggle, plus another cab. We
>plan on 3 double ended yards (4 stubs). Each stub was to have it's own
>engine terminal panel. Each yard panel would have about 30 toggles, each
>engine panel would have about 25. That's 1,000 DPDT bat handled ON-ON
>toggles. At $7.21 ea. (1998 prices), that's $7,210.00. We figured we would
>have 160 mainline switches, controlled by both the dispatcher (160) and two
>divisional towers (80 ea.) plus another 150-odd locally controlled switches
>in the aisle plus the interlockings in the yard limits of each yard (10 ea.
>x 7). That equals another 540 toggles at $7.21 ea. for a total of
>$3,893.40. Combined, that's $11,103.40. The electrical committee estimated
>that we would need approx. 14,000 feet of 12 AWG wire at $.55 per foot
>(1998), (plus 18 AWG feeders), for a total of $7,727.16. Throw in about
>$200+ worth of LEDs and you get $19,139.38.
Your wire cost seemes high compared to what I can get. Your DC design
uses unecessary toggle switches. If you use the contacts on switch
machines to isolate tracks toggle switches are minimised, which makes
operation simpler. Thus your numbers are higher than necessary.
>Now, with DCC, costs of wire drops to about $2,000. One command station is
>$285, 12 boosters at $199.99 ea is $2399.88. 10 UT1 throttles at $79.99 ea,
>plus 10 DT100 at $149.99 ea equals $2299.80. Grand total = $4,984.68. Wire
>costs were guestimated to be around $2,000.00 (720 ft of 12 AWG @ $.55 a
>foot + 720 ft of 6 conductor (phone) @ $1.00 per foot + 5000 ft of 18 AWG
>hook up wire @ $.17 per foot = $850). Toss in 40 stationary decoders for
>switch machines @ $79.99 ea. for $3,199.96 for a sub total of $10,150.64.
>Plus, $1000.00 for fascia connector for plugging in. That's $11,150.64.
If you are comparing DCC to automatic block DC then you need to
include the cost of signal detectors and decoders. The DCC option can
become more expensive if you use the detection Decoders and have a
large number of Locomotives compared to the number of blocks.
>Please note that the cost of decoders are paid by the individual member, and
>not the club. Even so, we could decoder 500 engines @ $16 per ($8,000) and
>still come out even. Even so, we aren't forcing the membership to spend the
>money. Those who want to run their stuff have to pay for decoders. Those
>who don't have the cash can simply use other people's engines.
>
>> Wiring is not that expensive. At 25c metre for
>>wire, the extra cost of wiring even such a large layout plus the cab
>>selection switches would not be greater than the higher cost of DDC
>>controllers, at least $100 each, for your example more than $1000. Add
>>to this the cost of the decoders for locomotives, at $16 plus, for
>>your large layout yould have more than 20, theres another $3600 at
>>least. Sound decoders means $36000. For your large layout the cost of
>>DC can be made less by dividing your mainline into 2 divisions, 5 cabs
>>per division, then you halve the extra wiring and switches. DCC
>>cheaper, no way.
>
>
>Yes, way. And what's the deal with bringing up sound decoders??? Try to do
>that on straight DC for $100.per engine. And splitting the cabs into two
>divisions would be nice, in fact that was the plan. But they would all
>still be located on the "observation deck" to get them off the floor,
>leaving us more room for our 6750 square foot layout.
Sound on DC can be done cheaply, as all you need is a speaker and a
filter capicator per locomotive, the sound is transmitted using audio
frequency on the DC. The cost is largely for each controller for DC,
compared to each DCC locomotive. Easily under $100 per DC locomotive.
>Paul Cutler III
>Mechanical Department
>South Shore Model Railway Club, Hingham, MA
>www.ssmrc.org
>
>
>
>
Thus I conclude simple DC is cheaper than DCC, but you need to design
it properly.
st...@1earth.net
<rg...@virginia.edu> wrote:
>Depends where you buy; if you pay full retail for walk around throttles,
>toggles, rotary switches, wire, etc then the cost of a large layout will be
>high. If you shop the internet electronics discounters you'll do better.
>
>But there's also the time and effort to install DC system on a large layout.
>The time savings alone may justify DCC. I don't know how much extra wireless
>throttles would be for DC but for Digitrax it's about $25 extra per throttle
>and a single $125 receiver can support 10 throttles. The increased
>functionality may justify DCC. And I've run on club layouts with old
>fashioned block control: "why won't my train run?", "who's running my
>train", "how does the reverse loop work". If I want that much fun I'll beat
>my hand with a hammer.
The above problems are due to poor designed DC layouts that do not
follow protypical safe working concepts.
>Any club member that has a compatible DCC throttle can bring it; the club
>may not need to buy any.
>As far as I'm concerned decoders are free; that is I don't even count the
>cost. I put at least $15 dollars of detail parts, paint, and decals on all
>my engines, or I buy Proto or Atlas for $60 each instead of Athearn at $30
>each. A DH-121 is just another part. I'm replacing my 50 cent 5 chime
>plastic horns with 5 dollar brass once since most of my plastic ones are
>down a few chimes. No one ever rants about the cost of plastic vs. brass
>horns; why rant about DC vs. DCC either? Buy the one YOU feel gives you the
>most enjoyment.
I would suggest brass horns are better compared to plastic horns.
However DCC is not better, just a different way to get the same result
of operating trains.
>Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is a
>lot less than DCC. In all honesty the reason I play down the cost of DCC is
>because I didn't have a choice; at the rate I'm going I'd have spent at
>least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
>minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
>Put a dollar figure on that.
>"of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong"
Yes you save time wiring the layout, and spend that time installing
decoders.
>
>
>snip
st...@1earth.net
>On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:51:41 -0400, "Ron Herfurth" <rg...@virginia.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>........Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is a
>>lot less than DCC.............. I'd have spent at
>>least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
>>minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
>>Put a dollar figure on that...........
>
>Amen Amen Amen!!
All that time fitting decoders into locomotives might equal the layout
wiring time.
>I would rather take a beating than muck about with all that electrical crap. I want
>to run trains, not learn all about how to wire a railroad for fifteen cabs. There is
>positively no comparison between the aggravation of block control and the ease of
>DCC. Block control is like paddling a canoe for 16 months from New Orleans to
>Minneapolis, while DCC is like going on Northwest; nonstop 2hr 46mn.
I personally find my DC controllers simpler to use compared to most
DCC controllers. The is no aggrivation with a properly signaled
interlocked DC layout. It runs just like the prototype. One train per
block.
>If you have a small home railroad you don't need to buy the Digitrax Top-O-The-Line
>system.
>
>You can get a less expensive one that still works the same and has full
>interchangability and upgradeability with/to the Super Chief. The UT1 and UT2 are
>simple, easy to use throttles that are restricted to two digit addressing and basic
>consisting. If you want to go to four digit addressing and universal consisting then
>just get a DT300 throttle and VOILA! you've just upgraded your system to the Empire
>Builder level. If you decide that this still is not enough then get a DCS100 command
>station and you now have a Chief. The old DB150 command station can be used as a
>booster and to control reverse loops and such stuff. Add a DT400 later and now you
>have a Super Chief, but didn't have to shell out the BigBucks all at one time.
Or you can save allot of money and use DC. Any engine will run on it,
Including DCC equiped ones.
>
>Regards........Froggy
>
>Demetre (a frog too far) Argiro
>Gulf Central Railway, a proud member of the JRAG.
>argi...@mindspring.com
Terry Flynn
st...@1earth.net
<EdO...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>It is not only money vs time. DCC is simply a more realistic way to run
>trains, especially with several operators. I don't know of any prototype
>railroads where when the engine crossed some arbitrary boundary you had to
>run out of the cab and flip some toggles before you could continue. You
>drive the train whose cab you are in, period. With DCC, you do just that.
>You drive your train.
>
>Ed.
Have you heard of safe working, one train per block to avoid
disasters. The boundry between blocks is usually at a signal. Instead
of fliping toggles various token, paperwork or electrical systems are
used. Just driving your train is unprotypical.
Kennedy
> Thanks for the itemized list. I won't quibble with your pricing. Some
> folks seem to forget how fast costs escalate when you buy a thousand of
> anything. To paraphrase Ev Dirkson,
>
> A billion here, a billion there. After a while, it adds up to real money.
One of my friends was working on a report of costs associated with the M1
Abrams program, and there was a multimillion dollar discrepancy we couldn't
figure out. Turns out it was a rounding error in our respective
spreadsheet programs (ours and the Contractors). In the meantime, my
program was scrabbling around for every million it could get!
:D
Kennedy
--
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Ron Herfurth
<st...@1earth.net> wrote in message
news:3bd7ee53...@news.1earth.net...
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:51:41 -0400, "Ron Herfurth"
> <rg...@virginia.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> >As far as I'm concerned decoders are free; that is I don't even count the
> >cost. I put at least $15 dollars of detail parts, paint, and decals on
all
> >my engines, or I buy Proto or Atlas for $60 each instead of Athearn at
$30
> >each. A DH-121 is just another part. I'm replacing my 50 cent 5 chime
> >plastic horns with 5 dollar brass once since most of my plastic ones are
> >down a few chimes. No one ever rants about the cost of plastic vs. brass
> >horns; why rant about DC vs. DCC either? Buy the one YOU feel gives you
the
> >most enjoyment.
>
> I would suggest brass horns are better compared to plastic horns.
> However DCC is not better, just a different way to get the same result
> of operating trains.
I can run 4 trains at once on my folded dogbone with independent control of
each with out throwing a singel toggle switch. with DC I'd have at least 12
seperate blocks to run 4 trains and would spend all of my time throwing
toggels. I've run DC and DCC; they are not the same to me. DCC is better for
me, maybe not for you, but for me.
>
> >Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is
a
> >lot less than DCC. In all honesty the reason I play down the cost of DCC
is
> >because I didn't have a choice; at the rate I'm going I'd have spent at
> >least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
> >minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy
it.
> >Put a dollar figure on that.
> >"of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong"
>
> Yes you save time wiring the layout, and spend that time installing
> decoders.
The time I spend installing decoders is sitting on a padded barstool at my
work bench with a couple of 75 watt lamps directed at my work. The time I've
spent running block wiring in the past has been flat on my back or scrunched
up under a layout with at least one 75 watt lamp shinning right in my face
with hot solder dripping on my legs. advantage - decoders
When I finish installing a decoder i feel like i've accomplished something
useful and got to enjoy running a new engine. When ever i finished something
under the layout i've felt like i just took a beating and all i wanted to do
was switch to model boats.
Pac Man
>wiring time.
You have heard of "plug-n-play" engines? On those, it takes longer to put
Kadee's on then to plug in the decoder. I think only Athearn is releasing
new models without a DCC plug. Even Bachman is getting into the act. :-)
>I personally find my DC controllers simpler to use compared to most
>DCC controllers. The is no aggrivation with a properly signaled
>interlocked DC layout. It runs just like the prototype. One train per
>block.
Personal choice is personal choice. I will submit, however, that all DC
"controllers" are simple compared to DCC handhelds, after all, you only have
"forward", "reverse", and a pot/rheostat. The more expensive ones have
"momentum" and "brake", but not much else. A DC cab can have over 50
toggles (just as daunting to a newbie as a DCC throttle). Yet, a DCC
throttle does so much more. Sound, lights, switches, cab signals (coming
soon), power switch for the layout, heck, the DT400 even has a flashlight!
:-)
>Or you can save allot of money and use DC. Any engine will run on it,
>Including DCC equiped ones.
True. Just use one old "golden" MRC throttlepack and save ton's o' money.
Fact is, it costs quite a bit of change to run prototypically, DC or DCC.
Paul A. Cutler III
Pac Man
>control the cost should be about the same. A well designed automatic
>DC block system would have miniminal extra wiring compared to DCC. (I
>do not know of a commercial system which meets the above however)
"Automatic block"? How on earth does that work?
>Your wire cost seemes high compared to what I can get. Your DC design
>uses unecessary toggle switches. If you use the contacts on switch
>machines to isolate tracks toggle switches are minimised, which makes
>operation simpler. Thus your numbers are higher than necessary.
Maybe. But that's the way the old club was wired (and it served as a cheap
block detector). Not to mention that you would have to use some heavy duty
contacts on that switch machine (Tortoises are only rated for 1.5 Amps).
Still, just dropping some feeders every 9-12 feet, and "suitcasing" them to
a bus seems pretty easy by comparison...
>If you are comparing DCC to automatic block DC then you need to
>include the cost of signal detectors and decoders. The DCC option can
>become more expensive if you use the detection Decoders and have a
>large number of Locomotives compared to the number of blocks.
Okay, how much are DC "automatic block" detectors? I can wire up 16 blocks
for detection on our Digitrax system with one circuit board (called a
BDL-16) for $100 (at www.loystoys.com ). That equals $6.25 per block. Is
DC cheaper than that?
>Sound on DC can be done cheaply, as all you need is a speaker and a
>filter capicator per locomotive, the sound is transmitted using audio
>frequency on the DC. The cost is largely for each controller for DC,
>compared to each DCC locomotive. Easily under $100 per DC locomotive.
Doesn't that mean that all engines on that cab will have the same sound
effects, and be in sync with each other? What if you have an Alco and an
EMD lashed up? Do they both sound like EMD's? Or Alco's? And how much do
these sound "controllers" cost, anyways? Bet they aren't cheap...
Paul A. Cutler III
Pac Man
>>fashioned block control: "why won't my train run?", "who's running my
>>train", "how does the reverse loop work". If I want that much fun I'll
beat
>>my hand with a hammer.
>
>The above problems are due to poor designed DC layouts that do not
>follow protypical safe working concepts.
And I suppose accidents don't happen on the prototype? People used to lean
on a cab and throw a toggle by accident, causing all kind of fun. "Excuse
me, but why is my engine in the turntable pit?" About the "poorly designed"
bit, our old club layout was state of the art in 1955 (North Div.) and in
1978 (South Div.).
>I would suggest brass horns are better compared to plastic horns.
>However DCC is not better, just a different way to get the same result
>of operating trains.
Why? In your opinion, what makes DCC "not better" than DC? Decoders?
Initial cost?
>Yes you save time wiring the layout, and spend that time installing
>decoders.
Not if you have "plug-n'-play" engines (and you are starting out new).
Paul A. Cutler III
Froggy
>
>Have you heard of safe working, one train per block to avoid
>disasters. The boundry between blocks is usually at a signal. Instead
>of fliping toggles various token, paperwork or electrical systems are
>used. Just driving your train is unprotypical.
>
>
>Terry Flynn
Well, Terry, I was a train driver once and I am also a MRR for over 40 years who has
fallen madly in love with DCC. As long as there is a DCC I will never go back. You
are mistaken about swapping wiring time for decoder time. Once you do it a time or
two, decoder installation becomes very fast. I can put a decoder in an Athearn F7 in
less than ten minutes. I have spent interminable tortuous hours slithering about on
the dirty floor, gashing my head on risers and trying to read wiring diagrams in 10
lux lighting and I can state most unequivocally there is no comparison. As far as
Safe working is concerned; on the railroad where I worked safety was the
responsibility of all employees. It was not enforced by having electrical blocks such
that only one train at a time could be moved. Nor was it constructed in such a way
that if an operator DID accidentally overrun a block he would loose all control of
his charge.
"Just driving your train" is, in fact, the most prototypical way to do it. When I was
a train driver that is all I did. I drove the train. I never messed about with block
switches, toggles, route selectors or any of that rubbish. Just sat in the cab and
worked the throttle and brake. Go on green, stop on red.
You said:
>I personally find my DC controllers simpler to use compared to most
>DCC controllers. The is no aggrivation with a properly signaled
>interlocked DC layout................
I disagree. On your railroad the whole railroad is the controller.
"...........signaled, interlocked DC layout........" The operator must be a regular
attendee and must be familiar with all your idiosyncrasies and methods. I cannot walk
into your world with a track map and run trains. First I have to learn how your
railroad works, and then I have to learn how to work your railroad. Then, because
yours is a unique environment, I cannot use what I have learned anywhere else. I see
that as more difficult than learning to use a DCC controller. You probably do not
see it because you were there from the start and did what you thought of. However,
the rest of us do not have the contents of your brain in our heads. I might also add,
as I have said before- and I am not alone- I absolutely d-e-s-p-i-s-e doing
electrical work; it is punishment to me. Oh, I am very good at it. Efficient and I do
beautiful work, I just hate it.
Then you said:
>It runs just like the prototype. One train per block.
A common misconception held by many, if not most MRRs. While it is true that in most
situations through trains running along line of road are kept one to the block, this
is not always the case. Within yards and terminals it is almost never the case. There
are too many instances to enumerate where more than one train or engine is in the
same block on line of road. It was something I did all the time; and I don't mean
meets or passes, but working together with another job. In yards and terminals it is
more like the parking lot at a shopping mall. Everybody moves at the same time in the
same area, each one looking out for the other. With DC this is impossible. You cannot
stop your engine while another performs some task close by, or on the same track.
Happens all the time on the real railroads......"2315 pull high and let the 1024 get
the last six cars off your cut." "One fifty six, when you get stopped the hostler
is going to couple to your engines and take them to the shop. The carryall will pick
y'all up at the air bleeders shack." "Center Road job, the hump engines are going to
couple up and help drag you to North Avenue. You should be able to make it from
there." "2320, go into track 14 and couple up to the Center Road job and drag him up
to North Avenue. Call me when you get cut off and I'll get you a route back."
"2320, pass the red board according to rule 534 and get in track two with the 1024.
He's gonna give you a cut of cars that I want you to shove back to the hump."
None of this is possible with conventional DC without excruciatingly complex wiring
and control systems and in some cases not even then; yet it is a constant occurrence
on full size railroads everywhere.
Unless you have individual control of each locomotive your MRRing becomes a
characature of its prototype, puppet-like in its actions, stiff, stilted and utterly
inflexible. You must always do a thing exactly the same way or you cannot do it at
all.
I know this was long and rambling, and I don't deceive myself into thinking that I
can change your mind one bit. There are those who would rather paddle to Minneapolis
than fly. God bless 'em.
However, I didn't really write it just to you, but to anyone else who may be
undecided or wondering. DC will work and it will work well, but DC is WORK while DCC
is FUN. With DC there is no middle ground. It's all or nothing. With DCC you really
can run your railroad with only two wires connected to the track. When you do have to
do any wiring, such as to subdivide the railroad into electrical districts it is
easy, simple, straightforward and, above all, fast.
Jon Miller
engine that will free wheel, an 0-8-0. I would like to see a DC wired
layout do this, pull the 0-8-0 out of the roundhouse with another 0-8-0,
across the turntable to the water tank. Uncouple and then have them both go
under different engineers a few inches apart. Oh, by the way, did I mention
uncoupling (anywhere) using a Function button<VBG>. Also both with sound
and the one being pulled is not chuffing until it's engineer cracks the
throttle.
Jon Miller
5-Amp booster?<
The cheapest DCC booster on the market is, I think, EasyDCC at $59/$69.
I have not used one but my understanding is that it is compatible with most
systems.
Edward A. Oates
for a living, I'll defer to his recollections. But I've also talked to other
engineers, and while it is true that from time to time, crossing blocks
means paperwork, that is by no means true in yards or routine entering of
green blocks. Entering a red block on the main line probably does mean
paperwork: filling out your union grievance form when you get caught and
fired for violating safe working.
Ed.
in article 3bd7ee6e...@news.1earth.net, st...@1earth.net at
st...@1earth.net wrote on 10/25/01 3:50 AM:
--
Ed Oates
DCC wiring information is at http://www.wiringfordcc.com
Jon Miller
sorta new player on the block, Kato/Digitrax. These two working together
have a new system out called the Zephyr. Kato will market it in Japan and
Digitrax will market it in the US. It's a lower end system around $200 MSRP
if I remember correctly.
JB/NL
news:ttgo8p5...@corp.supernews.com:
Basically to compete with the Atlasmaster/Lenz Set 03 (Compact) ?
--
Jeroen "NShortLiner" Braamhaar EMAIL: tsu...@home.nl * AIM: NShortLiner
Modeling Japanese N scale. Life's better in 1:150.
I hope the Southern serves Heaven, and Big John has an honorary trackside
seat. In fond memory of Big John, the man who I never met, yet knew.
Edward A. Oates
If RailLynx users are happy with their choices, GREAT! It means that they
are running their trains and enjoying their hobby. I those of us who chose
DC or DCC are likewise satisfied: GREAT! Same reason.
RailLynx and DCC are just two ways of solving the same problem of cab
control and multiple locomotive operation. In fact, in my opinion, they
solve the problem in a remarkably similar fashion, the major difference
being the source of command information to the locomotive: rails vs IR over
the air.
My main reason for posting originally was the misleading subject line,
especially since the whole article read like an ad for something. I don't
know what, though, since no component mentioned (RailLynx, MRC DCC, or DC
power supplies) was presented as a new solution to anything.
Ed
in article B7EC5F24.14F54%EdO...@earthlink.net, Edward A. Oates at
EdO...@earthlink.net wrote on 10/12/01 8:49 AM:
> Excuse me, but what you've described is everybody's dcc system. I've not
> seen a modern one yet which won't run standard DC locomotives via address
> zero. The decoders for DCC start at about $15 from most manufacturers with
> at least forward/reverse lights. You can independently control the forward
> and reverse lights on any of them to simulate what a real engineer does: he
> manually turns the ligths on an off. For a few bucks more, you can get
> lighting effects from NCE, TCS and others on 4 function wires, including
> dimming, Mars , gyro, etc.
>
> Every modern DCC system will run ANY NMRA compliant decoder so "foreign"
> engines are not a problem.
>
> Thanks for the post, but I just don't see any advantages to RailLynx over
> anything else. This is not to say that it is not a good command and control
> candidate.
>
> Ed.
>
> in article 20011012045320...@mb-fb.aol.com, Caseycam2 at
> case...@aol.com wrote on 10/12/01 1:53 AM:
>
>> Here is some food for thought.
>> I know it's long, but the idea needs some explaining. It's actually so
>> simple, you may need to read it twice and try it out for yourself to believe
>> it. This works and has been tried out on a small test track, but will work on
>> any layout I can imagine with no more than 10 engines running at the same
>> time
>> (max 2.5 amps)depending on your power supply.
>>
>> I was recently planning to rebuild my HO Susquehanna Railway (NYS&W) layout
>> with 2-3 levels so I could have a more prototypical operation. The line is
>> mostly an up-grade from East to West, so the 3 levels are possible in my
>> 20x30
>> basement without a helix. Since the real Susquehanna RR is mostly single
>> track
>> with several locals and road trains, I needed a command control system since
>> block controls just weren't working out. To go DCC, I would need to invest in
>> decoders for EVERYTHING so the few regular locos could run the line (between
>> 5
>> and 15 locos) and include all the occasional "foreign power" and maintainance
>> /
>> inspection equipment (Hy Railers, Speeders, Sperry Car, etc). I also want
>> friends to be able to run their engines on my layout without having to
>> convert
>> to MY system of choice. All of this is part of a normal operating session! My
>> collection is over 50 powered units; Steam, Diesel and other.
>>
>> Have you ever tried to install a DCC decoder in a Bachmann Trackster Pickup?
>> It needs all the weight it can get PLUS better wheels and a motor just to
>> run!
>> DCC in a powered HO Fairmont Speeder?? Not a chance; the motor barely fits!
>> The only option for these is standard DC. Hmm....
>>
>> Several years back, I bought the MRC Command 2000 DCC unit since it supports
>> standard locos (and all those Tracksters & speeders I built) but it's DCC
>> abilities were far short of what I expected. Sure; I could run several trains
>> at once, but with only a stationary console and 1 or 2 walkaround throttles
>> for
>> the DCC locos only. ALL DC locos had to run from the console. I was a little
>> ticked off. I didn't mind the stationary console "standard loco" control so
>> much and I've been told you can hack the MRC unit so that channel 1 is on
>> it's
>> own walkaround (a techie job to say the least) but it wouldn't solve my
>> problem
>> alone. I eventually wanted to upgrade to good sound support; Standard DC had
>> no horn / bell control and the MRC unit was weak at best. Then I was
>> introduced
>> to the answer...
>>
>> It's been around for years, but nobody paid much attention to it. I
>> overlooked it because of all the hoopla over DCC. I saw it operate on a large
>> layout, installed a reciever in both an Atlas RS3 (drop in) and an Athearn
>> Geep
>> (hard wired), ran it on a small layout... I was impressed!
>> I was a skeptic, and even had some suggestions for improvements (which are
>> mostly planned for anyway) but now that I have found this solution, I'm sold.
>>
>> First, let me tell you that I am NOT connected to these people in any way,
>> but after seeing it run, I wish I was! My engine fleet is pretty large and
>> will
>> be costly to convert over.. but that's where my part of the idea comes in..
>> I'll get to that in a second. First comes the magic key....
>>
>> The product is called Rail Lynx, and it's an Infra Red control system that
>> blows DCC right out of the water. It is completely track independant for it's
>> command functions, and the track is only supplying power to the loco and
>> cars.
>> The loco has a receiver and infrared receiving LEDs in the cab. They used to
>> stick out the top of the engine and it looked funky, but that has changed!
>> They
>> hide in the cab, barely visable to the eye and can be further masked by the
>> crew or interior details if you wish. The loco control is incredible and
>> makes
>> walkaround throttles and cab controls seem like playing with toy trains! The
>> controls are completely wireless since the engine recieves the signal from
>> your
>> small hand held remote. You can control your headlights (off-dim-bright) and
>> they don't "reverse" unrealisicly if you change directions. You change the
>> settings, just like on the real thing. It has sound support for SoundTraxx
>> boards and you can program accel & decel rates, starting voltage and more.
>> It's
>> really packed for such a simple system. (Future plans include a sound
>> equipped
>> reciever, but that isn't first priority) ANY Rail Lynx transmitter is
>> upgradable to sound support.
>>
>> The part I Iike best is that Rail Lynx can run on either AC or DC power,
>> since it has a bridge rectifier on the receiver and it converts the AC to DC
>> or
>> takes DC in either + - or - + and converts it to the right polarity. What
>> this
>> means is you can run it on a "standard" layout by turning up the power to
>> full
>> throttle in the blocks you plan to run or you can run it on a DCC layout and
>> do
>> nothing differnet or you can run it on a dedicated layout with full AC or DC
>> power applied at all times.
>>
>> This technical mumbo-jumbo simply means that you can do whatever you want and
>> it works! You can "MU" engines of different "Cab numbers" to share a common
>> "Consist number", you can cut off locos or run helpers independantly.. just
>> about anything you want. No programming tracks are needed for Rail Lynx
>> either!
>> They advertise its's ability to work on any layout, but only to make it run
>> on
>> that layout. The part they don't advertise is that by setting the system up
>> MY
>> WAY, you don't have to dedicate your entire layout to it either. THIS IS THE
>> GOOD PART!!
>>
>> Now, to prove I don't work for the Rail Lynx people.. My suggested
>> application
>> of their system uses an MRC Command 2000 to make it work for everything!
>>
>> THIS IS THE SECRET! IT'S SO SIMPLE YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!
>>
>> My favorite way to set up a layout to run ANYTHING on a blockless layout!
>> It's all so simple:
>>
>> Get an MRC Command 2000 DCC system. You don't even need the reciever or any
>> special DCC engines unless you want to run them.
>>
>> Run a wire from the "Accessory 16v AC" (on a standard MRC or similar
>> throttle)
>> to the input on the MRC Command 2000 DCC console. Connect it to the track as
>> instructed (2 wires to the track)
>>
>> You are done with the set up!
>>
>> You can run standard locos, DCC and Rail Lynx equpiment on the same track at
>> the same time!!
>>
>> How??
>>
>> The Command 2000 sends 16v AC through the rails which won't run standard
>> locos but will run DCC locos and Rail Lynx locos. Standard locos will only
>> run
>> on "Channel 1" of the MRC DCC unit, but they will at least run without a
>> total
>> commitment to DCC or Rail Lynx! They will buzz a little, but I have tested
>> several manufaturers locos for over 1 hour at idle and noticed no heat build
>> up
>> on the motors (Atlas old RS1, Atlas new RS3, Athearn 80's production GP35,
>> Bachmann Plus GP35 and a Bachamnn 44Tonner) and MRC only suggests no more
>> than
>> 20-30 min at idle. I can't give any credit to the "DAMAGE" claims I have
>> heard.
>>
>> The Command 2000 varies the AC "waves" to run a standard DC loco. By
>> overlapping the + and -, the DC motor turns in the direction you indicated.
>> The
>> more power you request, the faster the motor turns. You can run several DC
>> locos at the same time and still run DCC or Rail Lynx equipment... depending
>> on
>> your power supply.
>>
>> With this set up, you can run DCC, Standard locos and Rail Lynx without a
>> total commitment to any one system. No other DCC system lets you do it (MRC
>> is
>> the only DCC that has standard loco support) and you won't have to worry
>> about
>> 16 volts of DC making a stray standard loco run away.
>>
>> By "hack" converting the Command 2000, the standard DC equipment could run on
>> it's own walkaround (I'm checking into the conversion but need the special
>> TORX
>> bit to open my console), DCC equipment can run by walkaround, and Rail Lynx
>> equipment can run by it's own control. This appears to be the answer to
>> "covering all the bases" of HO layout control. I still suggest power blocks
>> in
>> any loco storage or staging area just to prevent any "Engineer Error" by
>> activating the wrong train by mistake. Even the best of us make mistakes!
>>
>> For my railroad, I can convert my few regular "local" locos (3 GP18's, GP40,
>> GP38, SW7, NW2) and a few road units to Rail Lynx. These engines will not be
>> expected to run with any standard locos on the same train. Any DCC equipment
>> I
>> already have can be put into interchange locos or commuter trains that run on
>> a
>> seperate mainline. Maintainance or small equipment can run on standard DC
>> since
>> it is of minor concern. Any "foreign power" of mine or visiting can run on
>> standard DC without the cost of recievers.
>>
>> The cost?
>>
>> Rail Lynx transmitters without sound control run about $150 each (1 per
>> TRAIN)
>>
>> Rail Lynx Recievers without sound run about $50 each (full featured)
>>
>> The MRC Command 2000 can be gotten from $50 used to $200 new (with a decoder)
>>
>> You probably have a decent powerpack to feed the power (up to 2.5amps max for
>> the Command 2000), but if you need to buy one you could spend between $20 and
>> $75.
>>
>> A basic startup package to run EVERYTHING is maximum $275! Most decent DCC
>> units hit you for over $300 just to run 1 to 3 trains, each requiring a DCC
>> receiver and you can't run anything else!
>>
>> My startup cost will total about $1000, but I can run ANYTHING this way.
>>
>> If I want to add DCC or Rail Lynx recievers, I buy them as I can.
>> All my friends and visitors can run anything they bring. I can run anything I
>> buy or build.
>>
>> I don't think anyone else could do better, and it's so simple to do!
>> Like I said at the beginning.. Food for thought!
>>
>> No need to reply. Flames should be posted to the group if you want, but don't
>> knock it until you try it. Knocking other peoples ideas without trying them
>> either shows your insecurity in what you have or your inability to embrace
>> new
>> ideas. I'm not making any money by sharing this discovery with you. Each
>> system
>> on it's own is very good, but since they all operate so differently AND so
>> many
>> people use each one, we need a way to run them all if we intend to keep our
>> friends coming to run trains on our layouts! That's the fun of model
>> railroading.. Sharing with others.
>>
>> Bill Smith
>> North Hawthorne Car Shops Custom Decals & Kits
>> http://trainmaster.mervernation.com/nhcs.html
>> Case...@aol.com
>> train...@mervernation.com
Froggy
>...........Entering a red block on the main line probably does mean
>paperwork: filling out your union grievance form when you get caught and
>fired for violating safe working.
It does happen. Usually no one gets hurt, but almost always every member of the
offending crew gets into some degree of trouble. Usually the conductor and the engine
driver take the most heat. For the engine driver, if there is no collision or injury,
and if it isn't too close of a call, AND if it's a first offense you probably won't
get run off. You will, however, probably get to sit at home for about 15 days without
compensation. The other crew member on the locomotive will probably get a written
censure, but no "off" time. On the other hand, if you hit something, you're in real
trouble. If someone gets hurt..you're gone. The fellow who ran a meet order at
Juliette and hit us head-on was off for three years before the union was able to get
the company to let him come back. Even then the stipulation was that he could never
again take a train out on line of road. He worked another twenty years and never
once left yard limits.
Jeff Scarbrough
wrote:
<snip of my rhetoric and Shawn's thoughtful replies>
>
>Regards,
> Shawn
>
>-
>Rail-Lynx
>Shawn L. Leichliter
>(610)351-0672
Thanks for setting the record straight, Shawn!
Regards,
Jeff
Stefan
news:3bd82b4c...@news.mindspring.com:
>As long as there is a DCC I will never go back.
IMHO ...THAT is all one needs to say on the subject!
cheers
Stefan
ChromeDome
>
> Well, Terry, I was a train driver once and I am also a MRR for over 40 years who has
> fallen madly in love with DCC. As long as there is a DCC I will never go back. You
> are mistaken about swapping wiring time for decoder time. Once you do it a time or
> two, decoder installation becomes very fast. I can put a decoder in an Athearn F7 in
> less than ten minutes. I have spent interminable tortuous hours slithering about on
That's great for you guys with diesels or modern steam. But how about
at least a nod to those of us with turn of the century tank engines, MDC
Climax's, narrow gauge Shays, etc.. It's not that simple for us, and
maybe in some instances not even possible.
That's why this argument is on round 2,345,678 :-).
Gene
--
Homo Sapiens is a goal, not a description.
Joe Ellis
n...@this.address wrote:
>That's great for you guys with diesels or modern steam. But how about
>at least a nod to those of us with turn of the century tank engines, MDC
>Climax's, narrow gauge Shays, etc.. It's not that simple for us, and
>maybe in some instances not even possible.
>
>That's why this argument is on round 2,345,678 :-).
>
>Gene
>
Yeah, right. See my post on the N DCC Thomas the Tank engine...
I get SO tired of you HO guys complaining about "no room for decoders"...
<<grin>>
--
Joe Ellis € CEO Bethlehem-Ares Railroad
___a________n_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_mmm_mmm___mmm_n______
___|8 8B| ___ /::::: / /::::X/ /:::::/ /:::::/||
||__BARR| | | /::::::/ /:::::X /:::::/ /:::::/ ||
----------------------------------------------------------------
[(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)]|___________________________|[(=)=(=)=(=)=(=)]
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Serving America's Heartland Since 1822 ~~~~~~~~~~~~
DHENK
>You have heard of "plug-n-play" engines? On those, it takes longer to put
>Kadee's on then to plug in the decoder. I think only Athearn is releasing
>new models without a DCC plug.
But even the new Genesis you can swap out the DC board for a DCC version.
Granted if you want special lighting effects that will take longer. But then
again those visuals look a lot better than anything that can be done in DC.
Every try flashing ditch lamps in DC and then go back to steady on?
Dave
Jacksonville, FL
DHENK
>Have you heard of safe working, one train per block to avoid
>disasters. The boundry between blocks is usually at a signal. Instead
>of fliping toggles various token, paperwork or electrical systems are
>used. Just driving your train is unprotypical.
Hogwash! We designed our layout to support block signals. These are not
automatic. It's up to the individual to pay attention to the signals just as a
real train crew does. If a signal says slow you slow if it says stop then you
stop. If you run a signal then it's the penalty box <G>. Thats more prototypica
than having someone flip switches. Having your engine lurch to a halt because
you enabled a switch incorrectly is stupid.
Again the idea should be to make a layout more user friendly. I can get 8 year
ols to understand running a DCC equipped train. Try to get them to understand a
control panel. Fat chance or a bit less than most adults.
Dave
Jacksonville, FL
DHENK
>>But there's also the time and effort to install DC system on a large layout.
>>The time savings alone may justify DCC. I don't know how much extra wireless
>>throttles would be for DC but for Digitrax it's about $25 extra per throttle
>>and a single $125 receiver can support 10 throttles. The increased
>>functionality may justify DCC. And I've run on club layouts with old
>>fashioned block control: "why won't my train run?", "who's running my
>>train", "how does the reverse loop work". If I want that much fun I'll beat
>>my hand with a hammer.
>
>The above problems are due to poor designed DC layouts that do not
>follow protypical safe working concepts.
Want to give some serious examples? Given a choice between a club layout with
DC many block controls that usually end up on a "Dispatch Panel" and DCC we
take DCC every time. Our Club wants anyone to be able to come in and run trains
without having to go through long learning curve such as tends to happen with
DC blocked layouts. I also find that DCC allows a much simpler wiring and
greatly eases any future electrical problems due to fewer components used that
can malfunction. Our club to this end has embraced DCC as allowing us to have
as few as one person or as many as the size of the layout can handle operate.
Switches are controlled from smaller localized panels and you follow the trains
around the room.
>>Any club member that has a compatible DCC throttle can bring it; the club
>>may not need to buy any.
Exactly. Also if a club member has a plug capable engine we can loan out a
decoder for that evening.
>
>I would suggest brass horns are better compared to plastic horns.
>However DCC is not better, just a different way to get the same result
>of operating trains.
Not better? You've got to be kidding! After running a train on DCC most folks
do not want to go back to a "flip the toggle" control system.
>
>>Yes a couple of cheap throttles and a few toggles on a small railroad is a
>>lot less than DCC. In all honesty the reason I play down the cost of DCC is
>>because I didn't have a choice; at the rate I'm going I'd have spent at
>>least 5 years building and wiring block panels; I installed a Chief in 5
>>minutes. I saved 5 years of life while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
>>Put a dollar figure on that."of course that's just my opinion; I could be
wrong"
Not to me.
>Yes you save time wiring the layout, and spend that time installing
>decoders.
Maybe it'll take time for some engine but most I can do in a few minutes. If
it's a plug and play engine it's alot faster than that. So you can go about
soldering and fumbling under the layout with your wiring and I'll go about
running trains in the same time. Besdides after retiring from20 years of
electronics repairs I find DCC a much saner approach.
Dave Henk
Jacksonville, FL
>>
Rich Strebendt
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:26:18 GMT, "Edward A. Oates"
> <EdO...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >It is not only money vs time. DCC is simply a more realistic way to run
> >trains, especially with several operators. I don't know of any prototype
> >railroads where when the engine crossed some arbitrary boundary you had to
> >run out of the cab and flip some toggles before you could continue. You
> >drive the train whose cab you are in, period. With DCC, you do just that.
> >You drive your train.
>
> Have you heard of safe working, one train per block to avoid
> disasters. The boundry between blocks is usually at a signal. Instead
> of fliping toggles various token, paperwork or electrical systems are
> used. Just driving your train is unprotypical.
"Froggy" has already addressed the first statement you made. Let me propose a normal
operating scenario on the 1:1 railroads that can be done very nicely on a DCC layout,
but is ugly to do on a DC layout unless you just happen to have block boundaries in
just the right places, regardless of the train length. The scenario is the ordinary
tying on of a helper to a train about to climb a hill, the run up the hill, and the
cutting off, on the fly, of the helper and running it back down the hill. For a
freight, with the helper on the rear, this may be doable with DC. For a passenger
train with the helper on the point, cutting off the helper and running the helper
ahead to a siding would take more individual blocks and block switches that I even
want to imagine.
By the by -- if "just driving your train" is unprototypical, I expect that there are a
lot of 1:1 yard hog drivers that are behaving unprototypically.
I agree with the people who have indicated that, having gotten their feet wet in DCC,
would never willingly go back to running a DC layout. Right now I only have a test
loop in the basement on which to operate. With DC all I could do was set up a train
and watch it chase its tail. With DCC I derive a good bit of pleasure MU'ing engines
and trying different MU combinations, tying helpers on and cutting them off on the
fly, and other things beyond "just driving your train" in an eternal loop.
--
Richard Strebendt restr...@earthlink.net
Froggy
>....That's great for you guys with diesels or modern steam. But how about
>at least a nod to those of us with turn of the century tank engines, MDC
>Climax's, narrow gauge Shays, etc.. It's not that simple for us, and
>maybe in some instances not even possible.
No, I can't accept that. If I can get a decoder in a Z scale model there is no excuse
for saying that you can't get one in an HO scale Shay. You can't get a $14 DH121 in
a Shay but you can most surely get a decoder in one. Here is what Digitrax says about
its DZ121:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DZ121 designed to fit the smallest spaces!
1.0 Amp (1.5 amp peak) Mobile Decoder for long term reliability.
Tiny Footprint fits most Z scale diesels. 0.380" x 0.6" x 0.18" (0.96cm x 1.52 cm x
45cm). Powerful enough for N & HO scale installations, too!
2 Configurable Strobe Function Leads (Can be used for directional lighting or other
independent functions).
Two and four digit addressing & decoder assisted consisting.
V-Start, V-Mid & V-Max Available for three step speed tables.
Supports Paged mode and Operations mode programming.
Integrated Transponding Capability.
Scalable Speed Stabilization (Medium Resolution). More information about speed
stabilization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cannot imagine that the decoder will not fit in a Shay, Climax, Heisler or Baltic.
But then neither can I imagine why the manufacturers group their decoders by scale.
(a) Any docoder will theoretically operate any loco that does not exceed its current
handling ability.
A DZ 121 will run an HO scale Proto 2000 FA all day. The only reason not to use it
has nothing to do with its size, but has to do with the fact that a $14 DH121 will
also fit and do the same job. My point here is that there is no such thing as an HO
scale decoder or an N scale decoder. The modeler is not restricted to using only
those decoders designated for his scale. Any decoder that will fit the space will
work considering (a)
Emanuel
I have been battling inside my head with the two ideas. DC or DCC. My
biggest argument was that DCC was expensive. Buy decoders, install
them, etc. But, in the same time, I would be spending MANY MORE hours
trying to figure out DC and get it running properly.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll go with DCC. It's just a matter of
getting my layout up and running. Slow, but sure, process.
Thanks for helping me change my mind!
Regards,
Emanuel
zorbydgreek
There's lots of fun in store for you, Manny. I'm new to DCC myself.
On p.46 of the Digitrax Mobile Decoder User Manual there is an Example
Loadable Speed Table. Pretty intimidating to look at as there are
there specified numbers to be entered into CV's 65 through 95, plus CV
29. That's a total of 35 programming steps. I thought - I've got
nothing better to do right now - so I did it. In 13 minutes! The
result was the best running loco I have ever experienced. By the time
an hour had passed I had programmed three more locos!
To properly evaluate the value of DCC you must do something like this.
And enjoy it for years.
Zorby
Froggy
>Well, Froggy, you got me hooked!!!
I wish you the best of fortune and trust that you will recieve many hours of
operating pleasure from whichever system you choose. I chose Digitrax and I
positively adore it. I have just returned from an operating session as I sit and
write this. On a Digitrax railroad, of course, It was just grand. Two and three jobs
working in the yard simultaneously, helpers going back and forth on the hill while
the local was working, and not once all night did we hear: "Who forgot to reset their
block?" or "Who's got my train!!!!" or " I can't move until the other job gets out of
the block."
You see, before there was DCC, the DC block/cab control method was the best there
was. That was all you could do. Many of us didn't really like it that much even
then, but there was nothing else. We had to wait for the invention and perfection of
DCC. Well, MAN! Once that happened and DCC was born we no longer had to be
satisfied with DC block/cab control. As an analogy, since Diamler invented the
automobile we don't have to walk and ride animals any more. I don't even own a horse
and I don't want to. Likewise, I no longer own a variable voltage power supply that
controls the tracks under my trains, nor do I want to. DC block/cab control has moved
from the status of a necessary evil to that of PITA. Even the smallest railroad can
enjoy the benefits of DCC If it is designed with operation in mind.
cat
Just based on what I have seen and read, I'll grant DCC is
perfect for clubs and larger layouts. The thing I wonder is, how
useful is it REALLY for a small home layout which gets no visitors and
is strictly one man operation. Add to this the trains never go to
other layouts or clubs and the "operation" is more mainline running
than switching. Is the high initial cost of DCC really worth it? What
does it offer to the small one man layout that DC doesn't? I am
seriously curious since I am now starting to build here in my new
location. I had used DC for years and still have my trusty MRC pack
but, now that I am starting anew, I can consider DCC with a more open
mind than i would have given the idea of converting over what I was
used to and had worked so long to make. Any input is welcome.
cat
David Harris
small layout -- blocks would be smaller, there is more likely to be a
higher density of locos, perhaps more switching. Certainly, it excels
at letting you move more than one engine in a confined space.
David
EBTBOB
You said the one thing that usually makes the difference when someone
just cannot see the reality of DCC.
Usually, once someone who is "oppposed" to DCC operates on a DCC
equipped railroad, the advantages are just to much to continue opposition to
having DCC.
For anyone out there that is either dead set against DCC or is sitting on
the fence not sure which way to go.....find a way to run on a DCC equipped
railroad and then see how you feel.
Bob
Joe Ellis
<c...@consultant.com> wrote:
> Just based on what I have seen and read, I'll grant DCC is
>perfect for clubs and larger layouts. The thing I wonder is, how
>useful is it REALLY for a small home layout which gets no visitors and
>is strictly one man operation. Add to this the trains never go to
>other layouts or clubs and the "operation" is more mainline running
>than switching. Is the high initial cost of DCC really worth it? What
>does it offer to the small one man layout that DC doesn't? I am
>seriously curious since I am now starting to build here in my new
>location. I had used DC for years and still have my trusty MRC pack
>but, now that I am starting anew, I can consider DCC with a more open
>mind than i would have given the idea of converting over what I was
>used to and had worked so long to make. Any input is welcome.
>
> cat
Well, I have an Digitrax-controlled N scale 7x9 foot L shaped layout
(built on two hollow core doors) in the living room of my apartment.
There's a folded loop with passing sidings on one leg, and a small yard in
the other. There is one reversing section. My 10 year old son runs trains
as well, so it has never really been a "one man" operation. (BTW if you
_always_ run trains alone, and _never_ have any visitors... you're missing
a LOT of the fun in model railroading! You don't _have_ to do "formal
operations" to have fun running trains with friends!)
I use _2_ feeder wire pairs to the track - one to the main track, one to
the reversing section. I can operate any number of locomotives, in any
direction, anywhere, any time I want. I have walk-around throttles. I can
run trains in opposite directions on the main, and can do rolling meets on
the sidings. I can run a train on the main and switch the industrial park
at the same time.
I can _also_ host operating sessions with 4 cabs at a time (Yard and
industrial switchers, and 2 mainline trains) active, and let the
industrial switcher also function as a helper when needed. Max train
length is only 8 cars leaving the yard, but with weighted cars and a 4%
grade on a turn, sometimes a single 4 axle road engine needs a little
help.
Plus, I plan on having a (hopefully MUCH) larger layout "Some Day"... and
while it's a pain in the tocus to unsolder wires from switches, all I have
to do to move my DCC system is unplug it and plug it back in. It'll take,
oh, 10 minutes tops, and I can keep running my smaller layout right up to
the moment of changeover... AND switch it back any time I want.
That "high cost" isn't so high when you start spreading it out over time,
with the benefits involved. For me, it's actually the _cheap_ way to do
it! In fact, the DCC system was less expensive than the retail cost of the
switch motors to power the switches.
--
Joe Ellis
Steve Magee
depends more on the type of operation and the owner/operators
interest.
If your smallish layout is home for a large number of locos (I think
everyone has more locos than they actually need), and you have a
large(ish) engine terminal, you can leave all your locos on powered
tracks and just "dial up" the one you want. The additional
prototypical lighting options on the more modern decoders is not
possible on DCC - Rule 17, Mars, ditch lights, etc.
And after all this, there is one other amazing little nick-nack :
sound!!! For the smaller layout, which is normally more detailed than
the larger layout, it does not require a huge outlay to start
equipping your loco's with Soundtraxx decoders. Oh, fun! Wait till you
kick your SD60 over, let the revs stabilize. Notch it up - a quick
blast on the horn and move to the yard - don't forget the bell! Here's
the grade , hmm, long train, will turn on the dynamic brakes...
Sorry, DC has nothing on it.
Steve
ChromeDome
>
> Just based on what I have seen and read, I'll grant DCC is
> perfect for clubs and larger layouts. The thing I wonder is, how
> useful is it REALLY for a small home layout which gets no visitors and
> is strictly one man operation. Add to this the trains never go to
> other layouts or clubs and the "operation" is more mainline running
> than switching. Is the high initial cost of DCC really worth it? What
While I've pretty much decided against DCC for various reasons, I think
the "operation" is probably the key. I too am building a one-man layout
and my emphasis will be on "modelling" and not "operation." At the
most, I might be playing with a switcher in the yard while a train is
making laps on the mainline. Not counting the turntable tracks, I could
probably get away with two or three blocks :-).
If I was planning on multiple operators and/or heavy emphasis on
operation, I'd probably be more inclined towards DCC.
Edward A. Oates
Do you ever want to have more than one loco running? Will they wind up in
the same block, like in a yard or trying to couple two loco's together for a
consist? Do you ever have a visitor or child running the trains?
If you answer yes to any of these questions, I suggest DCC (or RailLynx,
just to show I'm not prejudiced here :). For example, with a simple Digitrax
UT1 throttle, you can hand it to a visitor or kid, select the loco with the
rotary dials and turn the big knob. Loco moves. Then you only have the usual
collision avoidance and running against switches problems of newbies. Not
trying to get kids to understand when to throw switches and where the block
boundaries are, etc.
I first put it on my 4x8 layout (Atlas #6 in the book) and my 6 year old (at
the time) ran it just fine.
Ed.
in article 8knktt45h2eog2q6q...@4ax.com, cat at
c...@consultant.com wrote on 10/27/01 12:20 AM:
> Just based on what I have seen and read, I'll grant DCC is
> perfect for clubs and larger layouts. The thing I wonder is, how
> useful is it REALLY for a small home layout which gets no visitors and
> is strictly one man operation. Add to this the trains never go to
> other layouts or clubs and the "operation" is more mainline running
> than switching. Is the high initial cost of DCC really worth it? What
> does it offer to the small one man layout that DC doesn't? I am
> seriously curious since I am now starting to build here in my new
> location. I had used DC for years and still have my trusty MRC pack
> but, now that I am starting anew, I can consider DCC with a more open
> mind than i would have given the idea of converting over what I was
> used to and had worked so long to make. Any input is welcome.
>
> cat
--
Froggy
Thanx, Bob :-)) What was that " one thing"? If you pin-point it for me maybe I can
be a bit briefer in the future :-))
Froggy
>..............now that I am starting anew, I can consider DCC with a
> more open mind than i would have given the idea of converting
> over what I was used to and had worked so long to make.
>Any input is welcome.
Hi Cat. Thanx for the input on the photo rumor.
Here's what I think about DCC. Simply put, it is the wave of the future. Pandora's
box is once again opened and you know the rest of the story............
In a few more years all but the cheapest of toy trains will be manufactured with
decoders already installed, or at least with provisions for P-N-P. With a DC
railroad, even what could fundamentally be called a display railroad, alll you can do
is run one trail at a time/block. However, with DCC, not only can you still run one
train at a time, but you can do it with all kinds of special effects such as
sound-quite literally-bells and whistles and lights. I don't mean just a headlight,
but all kinds of prototypically correct things like Mars and ditch lights, strobes
and other stuff as well. There is more to be considered than just the cost of the
equipment. There is the "fun factor" too. To paraphrase EBT Bob: Make the effort to
find a DCC layout and operate on it. That experience will say more in twenty minutes
than I could ever possibly type onto a hundred pages. DCC is utterly addictive. I
have only a small railroad at the present time myself, but would not even consider
using DC as long as DCC exists. I absolutely love it. It is truly railroading in
miniature.
EBTBOB
is probably the one way to help people understand the value of DCC. All the
talk and logic does not have the convincing power that personal experience
does.
Bob
Froggy
OK, Thanx. Every one in the JRAG is DCC. The whole group is Digitrax and we all love
it. There is not one DC railroad left in the bunch. Even those who do not have
railroads of their own have purchased throttles, and in some cases entire DCC
systems. If you have everything at home you can still operate a test facility and
program your own decoders etc.etc..... We get together a minimum of once a week to
hold operating sessions at the various railroads and I am telling you we have a GREAT
time. Even the newbies who have never operated a DCC railroad are up-n-running after
just a few minutes. Everything you need is right there in your hand. There is
nothing else to learn and you can allow yourself to become totally absorbed in the
operation of your train without having to worry about anything else. It is such a
joy to be able to introduce a wannabe MRR to a DCC railroad and watch them have a
great time running trains. They always come back :-))
Mike Dodd
the house with a visit to the "train room." One guest asked if the
trains ran, so I fired up the EasyDCC system, handed him a throttle,
and told him where his train was headed. He did fine, walking along
with the train, and blowing the whistle now and then.
IMO the killer combination is: DCC + radio throttles. I was struck
with how little instruction I had to give this person - it was all so
natural to walk along and operate the throttle. He probably didn't
even glance at the turnout toggles on the fascia (I went ahead to make
sure everything was lined correctly). To me, that's a real plus for
inexperienced or casual operators.
Mike
-----
Mike Dodd (remove 'xspam.' when emailing)
HO Scale Virginian, 1950s
Emanuel
by one of the hobby shops in town (which I knew carried Digitrax) and
went in to ask him why he likes Digitrax (I'm trying to figure out
which DCC system I want to go with). All he had to do is show me their
SD80M. He powered up that little baby. The engine started idling.
Then, he turned on the headlights. Then, one ditch light, then the
other. Then, he turned the knob (throttle). The engine started purring
and moving. Then, he increased the throttle, the engine sounded
awesome!!! The kicker came when he blew the horn. The ditch lights
started "blinking" and the bell came on. Man, I know for some of you
guys, this is "normal" operation, but I was grinning and staring at
that SDM like a kid on Christmas morning opening gifts. I just
couldn't believe all you can do! I'm definitely hooked. No, in love
with DCC. No, whatever you want to call it! I just can't wait to get
my SD40-2s painted for Winsome Terminal (imaginary road), get the
speaker and decoder in, program it, and have fun! I just can't wait!!!
Emanuel
Froggy
>..........went in to ask him why he likes Digitrax
> (I'm trying to figure out
>which DCC system I want to go with)..........
The phrase "knock yer sox off" comes to mind :-))
As far as regards which system you should get; that depends on what you want to do
and with what you are comfortable. If there was one feature that I had to say was
one of the most major it would be Digitrax' way of Universal Consisting. I once
thought that all DCC mfgrs. used the same method, but I have been told that I was
incorrect. They don't. With my Digitrax system I can consist and deconsist locos
virtually "on the fly". You don't need to even get near the programming track.
Digitrax also has a customer help line that you can call M - F during regular EST
working hours. For other times there is the web site and internet chat groups.
Digitrax also offers a choice of four throttles ranging from mild to wild. That would
be the UT1 to the DT400R radio throttle. The DT400R is totally cordless, even for
consisting. Digitrax also makes a wide variety of other DCC support products not
offered by other manufacturers.
Those who use systems other than Digitrax will also be able to point out features
about which I am not familiar. Some of the "better" systems to consider are:
Digitrax
Easy DCC
Lenz
North Coast
System One
A few others are in the game, but at the "minor league" level.
Happy MRRing,
Emanuel
with Digitrax. What I saw, I liked... So...
Emanuel
cat
>In a few more years all but the cheapest of toy trains will be manufactured with
>decoders already installed, or at least with provisions for P-N-P. With a DC
>railroad, even what could fundamentally be called a display railroad, alll you can do
>is run one trail at a time/block. However, with DCC, not only can you still run one
>train at a time, but you can do it with all kinds of special effects such as
>sound-quite literally-bells and whistles and lights. I don't mean just a headlight,
>but all kinds of prototypically correct things like Mars and ditch lights, strobes
>and other stuff as well. There is more to be considered than just the cost of the
>equipment. There is the "fun factor" too. To paraphrase EBT Bob: Make the effort to
>find a DCC layout and operate on it. That experience will say more in twenty minutes
>than I could ever possibly type onto a hundred pages. DCC is utterly addictive. I
>have only a small railroad at the present time myself, but would not even consider
>using DC as long as DCC exists. I absolutely love it. It is truly railroading in
>miniature.
The thing is, in my case I model in N scale, steam era. That
means no trick lighting effects, just a plain old headlight and, maybe
marker lamps. Sound? In N? That would be great but I have never seen
any sound gear small enough to be installed in an N scale loco and
with steam, forget it. Even if there is room to fit a DCC decoder
there would surely be no room left over for sound, even if you could
find a small enough speaker. I seriously doubt if I would ever be
running more than 2 trains at a time and, since I would not be working
to a schedule, they wouldn't have to be in the same block.
One big thing is, does DCC still support momentum or do you
have to program it for each unit? Perhaps my biggest misgiving (other
than the price) is the programming. That does give me pause. While my
VCR doesn't flash 12:00 all the time (well, actually I am all digital
so there is no VCR anymore) programming is not my specialty. How are
those things to setup, etc? Maybe someone can point me to some
unbiased information on DCC (I have little trust of manufacturers' or
dealers' sites as they have a vested interest) so I could avoid
bothering people here.
cat