worst model railroad coupler?
Alvie
model railroad use?
I've used Accurail, Bachmann/McHenry, KD #5s and #58s. And I've used
hornhooks (who hasn't at some point in the hobby?)
Thanks.
Alvie.
ATAE Cain
The best to me are the new Kadee 58's.
Allen
Jim Bernier
Compatible' knuckle couplers other than the 'hornhook'.
Really bad couplers go back to the 50's when just about every
manufactuer had their own design, and hardly any would work with any
others. Even the coupler pockets were different!
As for the current crop, the older McHenry couplers that have the
'live' sring are just not very reliable. The Accurail coupler is a
little big, but does couple up with others quite well. One of the
problems with many of the plastic designs is that they tend to 'spread'
when you run long, heavy trains.
The 'all metal' Kadee couplers seem to have an advantage here, but they
still suffer broken knuckles from rough couplings as do the plastic(and
the prototype)!
Jim Bernier
Ernie Fisch
>
> I've used Accurail, Bachmann/McHenry, KD #5s and #58s. And I've used
> hornhooks (who hasn't at some point in the hobby?)
I haven't. I started in the hobby before horn-hooks
came about. They looked so disgusting I threw
them away immediately.
--
ernie fisch
Bob May
The Mantua loops were probably the best of the bunch but they weren't scale
looking by any means. Most of the knuckle type couplers were dummies and
the various companies couldn't even come up with a standard dimension for
them. The X2f hornhook coupler started out fairly standard in dimensions
but later manufacturers took liberties from that NMRA RP and did whatever
they thought would work better. The biggest problem with them tho was the
sideforces that they put on equipment and is probably the reason for the
heavy weights that they wanted in the cars. The Kadee K series came out and
the fight was over as far as I was concerned. Then came out the MK series
and I cursed at having to again change couplers although Kadee made it
simple as all they changed was the knuckle design so a MK-4 fit into a K-4
pocket with no problems. Then came the MKD series and I just added rather
than replaced from that point on. The MKD is merely a unbalanced side force
so that the knuckles would go to the side when uncoupled on a ramp.
--
Bob May
Remember that computers do exactly what you tell them to do, not what you
think you told them to do.
Charles F Seyferlich
I had some Triang TT with loop couplers. Way too big and didn't seem
very reliable.
Mark Mathu
>> And I've used hornhooks
>> (who hasn't at some point in the hobby?)
>
> I haven't. I started in the hobby before horn-hooks
> came about. They looked so disgusting I threw
> them away immediately.
What couplers were you using back then?
Rathburne
museum layout still has
a bunch of cars with them and the still run fine.
--
Please visit
http://communities.msn.com/BubbasBendRailfanandClearCutSociety/photos.msnw
to see some of my train photos.
Mark Mathu wrote in message <9mc9cq$b7h$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
Dennis E. Golden
pushed cars to the sides of the track thereby helping to derail them!
They were not only the worst couplers ever made, but quite possibly the
worst model railroad product. Of course there's always the Tyco GG-1
that rode on two 6 wheel diesel trucks. A close contest surely.
Den
Alvie
I've heard the old mantua hook and loops were descent for there day,
but I've never used them. (I've only been into model railroading for a
couple years but I had some train sets when I was a kid)
I like the #58s myself.
Ernie Fisch
2000
>
> What couplers were you using back then?
I started with Mantuas. Then I tried DeVores
but dropped them in favor of Roundhouse.
The DeVores worked well but were quite
a bit larger than the Roundhouses.
I dropped railroading for a while, college,
starting a job and all. When I got back in
I joined a club that used Marcos. Nice couplers
but unreliable supply. Switched to Kadees.
--
ernie fisch
Marada C. Shradrakaii
form of the hook'n'loop couplers where neither the hook nor the loop actually
budges, and the included wagons are too light to get any press action going
I happen to like the X2F. It makes a fine paperclip, and it stays crunchy in
milk. It's just not a very good coupler. :)
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
"What do you mean 'I'm doing 92.39 to 1 with a 5-foot gauge' is not a valid
excuse for undersized models?"
Trainchasr
I recently bought a couple of Walthers' plastic pellet hoppers that came "ready
to run…with Accu-Mate couplers." Nice cars, but as a matter of procedure and
policy, I replace whatever couplers are fitted to the car with Kadees and
sprung trucks. The trash can is equipped with the "Kadee-wannabes." :-)
Dieter Zakas
Alvie
I have used KD #5s and #58s and the #5 knockoffs and the X2F/hornhook types.
Patrick Cadet
Speaking of couplers... Did any of you see the letter written from Model
Power Customer Service rep in the August 2001 Issue of Model Railroading on
page 9?
He stated that :
"There are two types of model railroading; practical and prototype.
Up until the present, model railroading sets were manufactured for
practical model railroading purposes. 18" radius curves and horn hook
couplers were used for ease of operation and minimal space requirements. The
horn hook couplers can withstand rough handling (a must for younger train
enthusiast) where the new knuckle couplers break very easily. This males the
car temporarily useless and increases the frustration level for the new
modeler.
Prototypical rolling stock requires body mounted knuckle couplers and
RP-25 wheel flanges. This increases the chance of derailment on the 18"
radius track and standard switches. To this the standard answer is use 22"
radius track. Unfortunately, everyone does not have the room for wider
radius curves.
Let's keep the fun in the hobby for the beginner and the average model
railroader. If and when they are ready for proto railroading, let them do it
by choice rather than ramming it down their throats.
The added problems of proto model railroading can only discourage many
new modelers. "
How do you feel about these statements?
When I got my first train set by AHM back in around 1982, it always
derailed when going fast. It would derail going backwards, all with 18'
radii and horn hook couplers. And when I added switches it made things
worse. And to top it off the engine died after two months. It was until I
went to Des Plaines hobby shop in Illinois, looking for new motive power,
the owner introduced me to Athearn F7 loco, installed Kadee couplers on it
for me and I picked out some Athearn boxcars kits and more kadee couplers.
Tried it out at my grandfather house, it worked like a dream. I could go
fast, backwards, etc all on the same track. No derailments. Even with my
poor track work.
I was more frustrated with the equipment that I got from all the train
sets that I purchased when I was 14 with my allowance until F7-Day.
To keep things short, this is why I don't use horn hooks, as for some of the
Kadee clones, I agree with the rep on that they break, but I have Kadee's to
replace them. And for the 18" radius track... doesn't look right with
autorack, Superliners, Amfleets, SD70, SD90 etc., but it does work with
trolleys and Mass transit type cars (going to experiment with my version of
the CTA soon).
that's my story...
Patrick
"Alvie" <alv...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:dc1a8ce5.01082...@posting.google.com...
Jim Bernier
I agree with you - what amazes me is that 'clue-less' letter that
Model Railroading published from a Model Power 'Customer Rep'. Model
Power is on the 'low end' of making anything worth while to start with,
and I would never take their 'technical expertise' as gospel. I can
think of no worse combination than talgo mounted 'horn-hook' couplers
with 'pizza cutter' flanges operating on 18" radius sectional track.
This guy has no clue what he is talking about. RP25 flanges on the
wheels 'help' guide the wheels and keep them from climbing over the top
of the rail(that is what that little rounded 'fillet' is for). The
horn-hook coupler exerts too much side force and 'pushes' the truck to
one side, forcing a derailment when trying to back up a train. Then to
make matters worse, when the derailment happens, the darn things keep
the train together so the whole train takes the dive!
I would agree that the working knuckle couplers are not a strong as
the horn-hooks, but this is a 'scale' train - right? Back in the early
60's when I got into scale model railroading, one of the first questions
the guy in the hobby shop asked my dad was if I was at least 12 years
old. They even made me put a Varney boxcar on the track without a
re-railer to prove that I was up to this stuff!
The sad part about this industry was driven home a few years back at
the National Train Show. I was talking with a Life-Like rep about their
great P2K line of engines. I asked if their future direction was to
dump the old line and just produce the P2K. The response was that they
make more money on all of those cheap train sets you see in Toys R Us
and other discount stores that they do on the scale stuff. They did use
'branding' to seperate the P2K from the older Life-Like, but you still
associate those F40PH's & GP38-2's in the train sets with the others(at
least in my eyes). I am sure Bachmann operates on the same business
model - there is just too much to be made selling the cheap stuff.
As far as Model Power - They were at the National Train Show, but had
NO sample of their new 'metal' FP7 in N scale. When I asked one of
their 'reps' about it he did not know what I was talking about. Another
rep overheard our conversation and told me that it is 'not ready yet'.
One of the big problems I see with 'cheap' train sets is that they try
to put long engines and cars in them. If they had a 4 axle switcher and
some 40' cars, the trains would derail a lot less. I worked off and on
in several hobby shops over the years, and in every case we tried to
steer folks away from large 6 axle engines - they just would come back
within a week because they kept derailing on those Snap-Track curves.
Even on this newsgroup, I have seen a guy wanting to 'sue' Atlas because
his Atlas U33C kept derailing freight cars on his Atlas Snap-Track
curves! He firmly beleived that anything manufactured by Atlas should
be able to run on any Atlas track!
Jim Bernier
Mark Mathu
> How do you feel about these statements?
I agree on both points.
- 18" radius curves are great for keeping space requirements to a minimum;
- knuckle couplers, as nice as they look, can not withstand rough handling
(and
occasional snag in the carpeting, and fall to the floor, and collision with a
ping-pong ball or whatever some kid has placed on the tracks just to "see what
happens") as well as horn hook couplers can.
My first HO set (a downsize from the tinplate I had as a young child) was a
Tyco figure 8 set I got in 1971. It had 18" radius track and X2F couplers. I
survived it. Like the article said - "If and when they are ready for proto
railroading, let them do it by choice rather than ramming it down their
throats." For me, installing Kadee #5s on Christmas morning when I was a
10-year-old would not have been a pleasant introduction to the hobby.
> When I got my first train set by AHM back in around 1982, it always
> derailed when going fast. [...snip...]
> ... installed Kadee couplers on it for me and I picked out some
> Athearn boxcars kits and more kadee couplers. Tried it out at my
> grandfather house, it worked like a dream. I could go fast, backwards,
> etc all on the same track. No derailments.
If you re-read the MR article, they never discussed going fast. It's just
making the points that 18" radius curves minimize the required space and horn
hook couplers can withstand rough handling.
- Mark
Mark Mathu
> Tried it out at my grandfather house, it worked like a dream. I could go
> fast, backwards, etc all on the same track. No derailments. Even with my
> poor track work.
What radius and switch size did you & your grandfather have?
Mark Mathu
> RP-25 wheel flanges. This increases the chance of derailment on the 18"
> radius track and standard switches.
Earlier he wrote about 18" radius curves and horn hook couplers, so it seems
pretty clear that when he writes about "increases the chance of derailment" he
is comparing body mounted knuckle couplers to X2F couplers.
But when he writes about RP-25 wheel flanges? ... I'm not sure what he's
comparing it to. What standard does Model Power use on their wheels? There
must be some sort of standard, because everyone uniformly hates the oversized
flanges.
Mark Mathu
> I was talking with a Life-Like rep about their
> great P2K line of engines. I asked if their future direction was to
> dump the old line and just produce the P2K. The response was that they
> make more money on all of those cheap train sets you see in Toys R Us
> and other discount stores that they do on the scale stuff.
I'm sure that point won't be overlooked by Dart Container Corporation, the
supposed new owner of Life-Like.
Patrick Cadet
I know the article never mentioned trains going fast, I used to live right
next to the C&NW main line track going to Kenosha Wi (a.k.a. Metra/UP North
Line). Seeing Passenger trains rushing by during rush hour all day during
the summer time, the rule was if they go fast... my trains should go fast
also. :-) Remember, I was a kid then... :-)
And the F7 that I got is a C&NW... Still have it, still running and it's in
excellent condition. :)
Pat
TOM
Gettin' kinda personal ain't ya??? :>))
<><><> TOM <><><>
-----------------
B'ichela
>I agree on both points.
>
>- 18" radius curves are great for keeping space requirements to a minimum;
>
>- knuckle couplers, as nice as they look, can not withstand rough handling
>(and
>occasional snag in the carpeting, and fall to the floor, and collision with a
>ping-pong ball or whatever some kid has placed on the tracks just to "see what
>happens") as well as horn hook couplers can.
couplers (Hornhooks) In fact on any cars/locs that came with ezmate
or the other cheapie knuckles. I swap them with X2F couplers in the
pockets! Only two cars on my bench ever gave me a problem with this.
and these are the Bachman F7A and F7B units. Couplers have too much
"slop" Couplers ride UP and DOWN! need to be bolstered up to keep from
uncoupling. This is caused
in my opinion with the Bachman's idea of a F7 coupler pocket, My
friend broke ALL FOUR of my pockets! I need to order 4 new pocket assemblies
Hopefully when I call Bachman's Customer service soon, I will get four NEW
pockets that are "Slop free", with matching X2F couplers.
I tried to assemble a few Kadee Bettordorf trucks with
intergrel Knuckle coupler, I lost the springs! I lost the screws! I
lost my patience (for me thats very rare). I threw them in the trash
and swore "NEVER AGAIN! if it aint X2F, I aint dealing with it!"
Note, I am a Practical Model Railroader. Since I cannot see
well and I don't have the funds to get fancy. I deal with what I can
do. That means X2F couplers and 18" radius track, I do this for my
enjoyment not someone elses!
Sadly right now my setup is not setup right now as I need to
buy some new track and those replacement coupler assemblies. I also
am going to be needing more X2F couplers someday (I will post when,
which is not right now). My breakfast nook has a computer and some
junk on it including a friends Aquarium.
--
B'ichela
st...@1earth.net
<jrbe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Patrick,
>
> I agree with you - what amazes me is that 'clue-less' letter that
>Model Railroading published from a Model Power 'Customer Rep'. Model
>Power is on the 'low end' of making anything worth while to start with,
>and I would never take their 'technical expertise' as gospel. I can
>think of no worse combination than talgo mounted 'horn-hook' couplers
>with 'pizza cutter' flanges operating on 18" radius sectional track.
>
> This guy has no clue what he is talking about. RP25 flanges on the
>wheels 'help' guide the wheels and keep them from climbing over the top
>of the rail(that is what that little rounded 'fillet' is for). The
The fact is coarser deep flanged wheels out perform RP25. RP25 looks
nice, and thats all. Se my web page for a superior flange profile
which looks as good as RP25.
>horn-hook coupler exerts too much side force and 'pushes' the truck to
>one side, forcing a derailment when trying to back up a train. Then to
>make matters worse, when the derailment happens, the darn things keep
>the train together so the whole train takes the dive!
100% agree.
> I would agree that the working knuckle couplers are not a strong as
>the horn-hooks, but this is a 'scale' train - right? Back in the early
>60's when I got into scale model railroading, one of the first questions
>the guy in the hobby shop asked my dad was if I was at least 12 years
>old. They even made me put a Varney boxcar on the track without a
>re-railer to prove that I was up to this stuff!
KD couplers are probably stronger than the horn-hook.
>Jim Bernier
Terry Flynn
For up to date HO scale model railway standards go to
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/trainstandards/index.html
Includes extra finescale standards improved P87 and correct wagon weight formulae.
PEACHCREEK
They were fine couplers, so good in fact that if a loco detailed and fell over
it would cause all o=f tghe cars in the train to fall over as well.
Outstanding coupler! Just wouldn't let go!
In fact I once had a train leap off the table and head for the floor taking all
the cars with it, firmly coupled together. I grabbed the caboose and held the
train in mid-air like a long chain. This saved the train from destruction.
Now THATS a COUPLER!
Ernie Fisch
2000
> Some have said that the old Mantua loop couplers were the worst. Not true.
> They were fine couplers, so good in fact that if a loco detailed and fell over
They could be tricky to adjust but when done right
they worked well. Looked like heck.
--
ernie fisch
Dennis E. Golden
Baker made a good coupler if you adjusted or even eliminated the spring. I had the
distinct privilege of operating years ago on Whit Towers' Alturas and Lone Pine. He
used Bakers.
Den
Trainman
Dennis E. Golden <dgo...@warwick.net> wrote in message
news:3B96D5A1...@warwick.net...
> I liked the Mantuas. Ugly but affective -- as opposed to XF2, ugly and
ineffective.
> Baker made a good coupler if you adjusted or even eliminated the spring. I
had the
> distinct privilege of operating years ago on Whit Towers' Alturas and Lone
Pine. He
> used Bakers.
>
> Den
>
a couple old Varney passenger cars via eBay that had them.
Don
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
moderator: WisMode...@yahoogroups.com
and: MRP...@yahoogroups.com
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/MRPics
Mark Mathu
> KD couplers are probably stronger than the horn-hook.
Measured how? In the context of withstanding rough handling, as the letter
stated, I'd find it hard to believe that Kadees are stronger than a
single-piece plastic horn-hook coupler.
Rich Strebendt
I cannot give an A/B comparison, but I can give an anecdote that relates to the
robustness of the Kadee couplers. A number of years ago I had a layout which
included a single-ended yard. A friend and I were operating on it one day and
my friend became confused and panicked while bringing a train into the yard.
The result was a full speed collision between the train and a sturdy bumper at
the end of the track. The impact jackknifed the train all over three tracks,
but the engine (a heavily weighted Athearn F unit) stayed on the rails. The
track bumper did not budge. I anxiously examined the nose coupler on the
engine, but it seemed fine. Now, years later, that coupler is still in place
and working fine.
I suspect that an X2F could have survived the impact also, though I have had
the shaft on an X2f bend badly on a collision with the floor. I don't know if
a Kadee would have survived that abuse. I think, though, that comments about
the fragility of the Kadee couplers may be overblown. On the other hand, I
have also tried a few of the plastic Kadee clones and have discarded most of
them. I had problems, not with fragility, but with the small plastic finger
used as a jaw spring -- they were taking a set and failing to close the jaw
after sitting for a while in the yard with the jaws compressed into an offset
position.
--
Richard Strebendt restr...@earthlink.net
Dennis E. Golden
of the KD clones.
Den
Siren Juhana
> I think, though, that comments about the fragility of the Kadee
> couplers may be overblown.
I think the fragility is mostly in the darned knuckle spring, which is
hell to replace.
> On the other hand, I have also tried a few of the plastic Kadee
> clones and have discarded most of them.
Likewise - I now have Kadees in everything, and will install them in
every new engine and car.
BTW, is #58 more sensitive to vertical movement than #5?
> I had problems, not with fragility, but with the small plastic finger
> used as a jaw spring -- they were taking a set and failing to close the jaw
> after sitting for a while in the yard with the jaws compressed into an offset
> position.
I've had problems with impacts from slack action (slaction? :) causing
the plastic knuckles to slip over the stop that SHOULD limit their
movement, getting stuck in the open position and bending the "spring"
in the process. Damaged this way, the coupler won't close all the way,
causing unreliable coupling, and is likely to slip again.
--
Juhana Siren >>> Unix Specialist >>> Nixu Oy >>> Juhana...@nixu.fi
Rich Strebendt
> Rich Strebendt <restr...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > I think, though, that comments about the fragility of the Kadee
> > couplers may be overblown.
>
> I think the fragility is mostly in the darned knuckle spring, which is
> hell to replace.
I guess I have worked with them for long enough that I have gotten the hang of
installing the springs. I have found the "Spring Pic" to be invaluable for this
job, but I have used the small blade of my pocket knife in a pinch. I also find
that I rarely have to replace a knuckle spring, but they do disappear on occasion
for some reason.
The real trick to installing a knuckle spring seems to be to catch the spring a few
turns from one end with the Pic, not close to the middle of the spring. Then,
holding the jaw of the coupler closed with the thumb of your other hand, slip the
long end of the spring over one of the pins, compress the spring until you can get
the Pic over the other pin, relax just a tad so that the second pin is inside the
few turns on the short end of the spring, then pull the Pic out, letting the second
pin scrape the spring off of the Pic. Presto! The spring is installed without
mess or fuss.
> BTW, is #58 more sensitive to vertical movement than #5?
I have been experimenting a bit using a test track I have. I have found that the
58's are SLIGHTLY more sensitive to sudden vertical changes in trackage with long
cars than are the 5's. This is reasonable, since the jaw on the 58 is not as wide
as that on a 5. This can be fixed, however, by fixing the underlying problem in
the trackwork -- which you should do whether you are using 5's, 58's or clones.
Where you enter or leave a change of grade, make sure that the change is smooth and
continuous -- that is, make sure you have a vertical easement and not an angle
where the level track meets the grade track. A few shims at a trouble spot should
take care of the problem. Otherwise, I have been very pleased with the operating
characteristics of the 58. I have had no problem mixing them with any of the other
Kadee couplers, and have had no difficulty pulling 30 car trains which included
cars equipped with 58's.
> I've had problems with impacts from slack action (slaction? :) causing
> the plastic knuckles to slip over the stop that SHOULD limit their
> movement, getting stuck in the open position and bending the "spring"
> in the process. Damaged this way, the coupler won't close all the way,
> causing unreliable coupling, and is likely to slip again.
I have not seen that, but the length of time I messed with the plastic clones was
very short. That might also explain some of the reliability problems I experienced
but did not spend time trying to diagnose -- I used the time to swap a new Kadee
in, in place of the defective clone.
--
Richard Strebendt restr...@earthlink.net
Trainman
Rich Strebendt <restr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B98BEB9...@earthlink.net...
I use an xacto No. 11 knife blade (in the knife holder <G>). I do it just
as you describe EXCEPT, once the spring is over the pin at the base, I push
the knuckle open to catch the other other end of the spring then pull the
knife out.
Takes longer to tell how to do it than to do it.
st...@1earth.net
wrote:
>st...@1earth.net wrote...
If your KD is mounted using a metal screw into your wagon, I would
expect the force to destroy a metal KD to be greater than the force to
destroy a plastic X2F simply because the strength of the KD metal is
greater than the X2F plastic. Many X2F couplers are only held on by a
1mm diameter plastic pin.
Bob May
Personally, I'd place my bets on some of the better X2F ones like Athearns.
Hit a Kadee good and it'll bend and that's it with the zinc casting.
--
Bob May
Remember that computers do exactly what you tell them to do, not what you
think you told them to do.
Train Man
a kadee break. About the biggest problem with them from my perspective
is that they loose the springs from time to time. I have samples of most
of the plastic knockoffs that have all broken in regular service.
Naturally, I don't speak for everyone, this is just MY experience.
Jeff
Dennis E. Golden
spring pick, by the way, makes replacing the knuckle springs much easier.
Den
Bob May
DD40 while doing power testing. The hornhooks wouldn't open up or otherwise
get damaged while the Kadees did. I did eventually get enough weight onto
the loco to where even the hornhooks did break.
Kennedy
> Up to and including dropping a car on the concrete floor, I've never had
> a kadee break. About the biggest problem with them from my perspective
> is that they loose the springs from time to time. I have samples of most
> of the plastic knockoffs that have all broken in regular service.
> Naturally, I don't speak for everyone, this is just MY experience.
I had an P2K E8 do the cliff dive thing onto a linoleum floor. The coupler
head broke off so clean, it looked like it just fell off!
:D
Kennedy
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