HO-Scale Zephyr?
PeterH5322
The Athearn passenger cars are based upon an ACF prototpye as used on the Santa
Fe and others. Also, they are all 72 foot cars.
If I'm not mistaken, the Zephyrs were all Budd cars (for sure the Pioneer
Zephyr, California Zephyr and Twin-Cities Zephyr were all Budd).
Con-Cor has the best styrene Budd cars available, although most of the
production seems to be non-Budd roofs. Con-Cor used to sell a "Budd Roof"
replacement. I've never seen a Budd roof on a Con-Cor baggage car or diner,
just on chair cars, Vista-Dome chair cars and Vista-Dome-Lounge-Observation
cars.
The trucks on the Con-Cor models are incorrect for a Budd car. I don't know who
makes a correct truck, but I trim the clasp-type brakes off of the Con-cor
trucks for a disk-brake "look".
PFloyd91
There have been a couple of articles in the commercial model railroad press
over the past ten years or so, describing how to
"kitbash" a shovelnosed articulated Zephyr set from available
plastic cars.
Someone with a RR magazine database should be able to locate these articles,
then it's merely a task to track down the mags/articles.
Douglas E. Menke
Sean Franklin wrote:
>
> Matthew J. Frahm wrote in message <63jpe1$q72$1...@darla.visi.com>...
> >Matthew J. Frahm <mfr...@tiny.net> wrote:
> >> It was articulated and originally had a shovelnose power car similar to
> >> that on the Pioneer Zephyr, but with its own two trucks and coupled to
> the
> >> trainset by a regular coupler.
> >Hey, self, wasn't it also a 7-car trainset?
>
> As it stands now (owned by the Illinois Transportation Museum), Nebraska is
> a 5-car articulated trainset, with a shovelnose engine. The engine does
> have it's own trucks (it would about have to, for traction reasons I would
> think) and used a regular coupler to the first car. Tail car was a
> rounded-back observation car.
Sorry Sean, close, but not quite.
First, It's the Illinois Railway Museum that owns the Nebraska Zephyr,
not the Transportation Museum of St. Louis. St Louis has a shovelnose,
but no train, and the shovelnose is not currently operational. The lead
Loco for the Nebraska Zephyr is QB&Q E5 "Silver Pilot". There is
currently no operational Shovelnose locos in existance. The trainset was
originaly built as the "Train of the Goddeses" and was pulled by a
Shovelnose called I belive Pegasus. Hence the Roman and Greek Godesses
that each car is named after. There also exists the "Train of the Gods"
in the Far East. It was purchased by an Arabian prince and transported
overseas. It was discovered that the train would not operate well in the
desert envronment, and from what I understand, it is still sitting
overthere somewhere. There have been one or two attempts to retrive it,
but I think they all failed due to lack of funds. If only Donald Trump
where a railfan.
The original TOTG where 7 car consists, but 2 of these cars on the NZ
where removed and I belive scrapped. The front power (HEP) car has a
standard lead truck and all other trucks are articulated. This was done
to add additional coaches in front of the train to accomodate overload.
Douglas Menke
Sean Franklin
Don Bahr wrote in message ...
Very interesting thread for me! I was just dreaming through my latest
catalog
<snip>
Another 'also', please Sean, what and where was that "EMD
>75th Anniv. Open house?
The EMD plant in Lagrange, IL (suburb of Chicago) manufactures the Prime
Movers for EMD locos. Must've been about 6 weeks or so ago, they had an
open house to celebrate EMD's 75th anniversary. There was a tour of the
plant (got to see the big 6,000HP movers in several stages of assembly),
plus a number of locos on display - besides the whole Zephyr train, there
was a BL-2, an SD70AC, SD90MAC, E-8(?), and a number of others. Lots of
fun - nice and cozy, with only about 10,000 midwest railheads in attendance.
Fritz Milhaupt
Sean Franklin wrote:
[snip]
> But, that does remind me, there is a diorama in the museum showing
> what the finished garage/Zephyr will look like, and the Zephyr on display is
> HO scale - so SOMEBODY made one :-) Now, the question is, did they make
> MORE than one?
Nickel Plate Products imported HO models of at least one (and I think
maybe two) different articulated Zephyr trains during the early 1980s.
They show up at shows from time to time. Not having my Brown Book at
hand, I can't say just how many sets they imported, but I suspect that
it was at least several dozen.
The Saginaw Valley Railroad Historical Society used to sell a VERY
approximate HO Zephyr set, with a power unit consisting of a solid
resin-cast shovelnose assembly fitted to the front of an Athearn baggage
car, coupled conventionally to a pair of Athearn streamlined cars.
As for the difference between the early shovelnose units and EMD's E
units, the easiest way to describe it is that the "shovelnose" units had
no real "nose" at all. They had a stainless steel front that was similar
in contour to the nose of the Hiawatha 4-4-2 or the Commodore Vanderbilt
streamlined steam locos, except that there was a band of windows across
the front (for the locomotive crew), and a "beetle-brow" grille above
the windows. It was what might be described by todays' auto engineers
as a true "cab-forward' design.
By comparison, the E5 (and most other EMD E units) all had some sort of
nose, with varying degrees of angle, in front of the cab, protecting the
crew somewhat in case of a collision.
The closest modern analogy I can think of would be of a "shovelnose"
unit to a subway car, and an E unit to an F40PH.
-fm
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Douglas E. Menke
Matthew J. Frahm wrote:
> A pity about the original shovelnose for the Twin. But what does the one
> in Saudi Arabia have on the head end? Not an E5, though, right?
From what I understand, and from looking up the motive power in my back
issues of the Bulington Bulliten, the Trainset in Saudi is just that,
the train set. No motive power. All shovelnoses in service on the Q are
accounted for.
>
> The trainset was
> > originaly built as the "Train of the Goddeses" and was pulled by a
> > Shovelnose called I belive Pegasus. Hence the Roman and Greek Godesses
> > that each car is named after. There also exists the "Train of the Gods"
> > in the Far East. It was purchased by an Arabian prince and transported
> > overseas. It was discovered that the train would not operate well in the
> > desert envronment, and from what I understand, it is still sitting
> > overthere somewhere. There have been one or two attempts to retrive it,
> > but I think they all failed due to lack of funds. If only Donald Trump
> > where a railfan.
>
> One of my goals, after I become wealthy <g>, is to bring that back and
> restore it to its original Twin Cities Zephyr appearance.
Let me know when that happens. I'll be there to help you load it on the
ship. One condition, I get to drive it once.
>
> > The original TOTG where 7 car consists, but 2 of these cars on the NZ
> > where removed and I belive scrapped. The front power (HEP) car has a
> > standard lead truck and all other trucks are articulated. This was done
> > to add additional coaches in front of the train to accomodate overload.
>
> Alright. I thought I knew my Zephyr stuff somewhat. At least I got most
> right.
The Burlington Route Historical Society has two Bulletins that cover
both the Train of the Gods/Godeses and the Shovelnoses. There web site
is http://www.burlingtonroute.com/default.htm
> --
> Matthew J. Frahm____________________________mailto:mfr...@visi.com
> Stillwater, Minnesota / Winona, Minnesota http://www.visi.com/~mfrahm/
> Dakota, Minnesota & Eastern Railroad editor, CTC Board Magazine
> MP 0.0, DM&E's Waseca Subdivision MP 308.6, CP's River Subdivision
PHL HOBBY
In an attempt to clear up a few things:
The original question was on HO models:
About 6 or 7 years ago, Oriental Limited imported nickle-plated brass models of
these trains in the 7 and 5 car configurations. I own the 5 car configuration
and wouldn't dream of parting with it. Oriental commisioned Microscale to do
a custome run of decals for these trains, and the set included decals for
various shovelnoses since it was for the 7 and 5 car versions. An Overland
Models E5 completes a nice model of IRM's (www.irm.org) Nebraska Zephyr! The
Athearn models are nowhere near close. A brass model is the only option for
an accurate representation...
The zephyr at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago just underwent a
MAJOR restoration. This is the PIONEER ZEPHYR, the very first! This has been
covered in various magazines found on the shelf of your favorite hobby shop.
It is to be encased in a huge glass display case as the centerpiece of what
amounts to a new indoor parking garage. Make that intombed...... Anyway, it
was backdated to it's earlier appearance without the extra gyralight above the
headlight. Look for pictures in the magazines in a month or two showing it
outside before having a building built around it. A Mike Danneman print will
be available from Sandcastle Arts showing the Pioneer Zephyr. Contact
Sandcastle at 847-359-1788. Ask for Ernie and tell him Erich Russ referred
you.
The Train of the Gods in Saudi Arabia is out of service per a caption in a
railroad magazine about 5 years back....wish I knew which one! The picture
showed it on a siding somewhere with VERY dirty windows. It was still in
stainless steel though - not painted over. From what I understand, they never
used it much because the A/C could not handle the sand and dust of the desert.
(Ever see the huge air filters on the EMD locos that get sent over there?!?!)
Too bad they didn't throw it on a transport ship when the Gulf War was over,
huh?
Erich Russ, Manager
------------------------------------------------------------------
Palatine Hobby, Ltd.
772 W Euclid Ave 800-624-9028
Palatine, IL 60067
phlh...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/phlhobby/index.html
Stensberg
James R Bernier wrote:
>
> Sean Franklin wrote:
> >
> > Matthew J. Frahm wrote in message <63jpe1$q72$1...@darla.visi.com>...
> > >Matthew J. Frahm <mfr...@tiny.net> wrote:
> > >> It was articulated and originally had a shovelnose power car similar to
> > >> that on the Pioneer Zephyr, but with its own two trucks and coupled to
> > the
> > >> trainset by a regular coupler.
> > >Hey, self, wasn't it also a 7-car trainset?
> >
> > As it stands now (owned by the Illinois Transportation Museum), Nebraska is
> > a 5-car articulated trainset, with a shovelnose engine. The engine does
> > have it's own trucks (it would about have to, for traction reasons I would
> > think) and used a regular coupler to the first car. Tail car was a
> > rounded-back observation car.
>
> Nose' power unit was a seperate 1800 hp engine. This was one of 2 sets
> built for the 2nd Twin Zephyr. These trains were later enlarged to 8
> cars if I remember correct. When the Twin Zephyr got it's 3rd
> re-equiping after WWII, one of the 7 car sets was rebuilt into the
> Nebraska Zephyr. The train-set had been damaged in a wreck and the CB&Q
> took the pieces and made the Nebraska Zephyr. I am not sure if it was
> larger than 5 articulated cars at any time, but it did has a
> 'stand-alone' budd baggage car added between the articulated cars and
> the engine(usually an E5A). It ran like this until the train was
> combined with other trains like the California Zephyr or 'California
> Service' at the end.
>
The other original Zephyr, the pioneer, was built as a true articulated
train. There was a three-car set, eventually enlarged to 5 cars and
then shrunk back to three for local work and then donated the Museum of
Science and Industry in Chicago. Several other sets wer built, but they
were built with articulated cars, but an engine that coupled, that way
the whole trainset didn't have to go into the shop when the engine
broke.
The Engine at Illinios is an EMD E-5, basically an E-6 with fluted side
panels and stainless steel sides. Modelling the set can be done two
ways. Nickel Plate Products imported this a couple of times. Most of
the original three-car Pioneer Zephyrs can be found for around
$500-700. You could kitbash a creditable copy of the Illinios set with
Rivorossi or ConCor stainless-steel cars. The E-5 has been imported
many times, you could kitbash one with putting corregated sided on the
old Cary E-3/6 body (a white metal casting, would require some grinding,
but definately doable. Maybe PK2 will add and E6 to their E-Unit line
up or you could kitbash one with an E7 body, but I would NOT want to be
the one to have to fabricate that nose....
Joel
FredRail
The early Zephyrs were articulated trains not unlike the Athearn Impack
cars. Some of them had a separate locomotive, and others were like the
Pioneer Zephyr with the locomotive "built in".
The built in locomotives were all shovel nose units. A few early separate
locomotives had the same styling. Later Zephyrs used E5 locomotives (sort
of an E6 with corrugated stainless side panels) which were unique to the Q.
The final Zephyrs, like the California Zephyr, were conventional,
streamlined passenger trains.
In the early to mid 1980's Model Railroader ran a series on kitbashing the
Pioneer Zephyr out of the Athearn cars. It takes a lot of cutting and
sanding, but it's a pretty good likeness. I believe each of the articulated
Zephyrs was unique, except the Twin Zephyrs. You could probably model the
others using the techniques from the MR series, but you would need to dig
up drawings.
root@localhost
ro...@127.0.0.1
postmaster@localhost
postm...@127.0.0.1
Don Bahr
In article <19971103033...@ladder02.news.aol.com> sam...@aol.com (Samorl) writes:
>(snip ... snip)
>Perhaps a CB&Q fan out there could enlighten us as to the type of equipment
> used on each of their trains??
>Scott Morlock
>sam...@aol.com
I hope we can still find that "CBN&Q fan" or authority to help us with this.
Did any of you see the recent (Mon. 11/3/97) "Trains Unlimited" on the History
Channel? there was a *VERY BRIEF* shot of some sort of Burlington streamlined
train with I guess some "E" unit and it looked like the cars shared trucks (is
that "articulated" or "non"?). It didn't show the end, probably only saw
about three cars. Question is/are: Was it an "E" unit? which one? what years
did various equipment operate? What "Zephyrs" operated in late "50's?
I made many round trips between Omaha and Chicago, while serving at Great
Lakes Naval Training Center. But then I was just a passenger, not a fan, now
I are one!
By the way, just in case anyone is still reading this, there were,
in those days, in Omaha, a Union depot and a Burlington station, was there
not? Is the Burlington still there?
Help is always appreciated! This is a *GREAT GROUP*!
73,
Don Bahr DC...@pge.com
Pacific Gas & Electric Co.
My opinions are not PG&E's
and Vice-versa.
Douglas E. Menke
Well, I don't have my CB&Q passenger "Bibles" here in front of me, but
I'll try as best I can to address the hardware issues.
The three unit articulated trains where the original Zephyrs. The first
was The Pioneer Zephyr. It was the first use of diesel power for
passenger service. The first unit was a combination power car/baggage.
The front truck was the only traction truck. The two cars behind where
coach and lounge. The Q added another coach for more capacity but is was
later removed. The front of the power car was rather unique in design.
It looked like a rounded off boxcab. The headlight was mounted high with
two grills flanking beneath it. The motorman compartment had large
wraparound windows. Beneath that was the front "Burlington" herald and
the pilot. The cab profile was a smooth taper from the top to bottom,
and looked nothing like later E and F unit diesels. BTW...this desigh is
refered to as "Shovelnose" in that it looked like a shovel turned
around. These are not precursors to the E units. It was found that 4
wheel trucks ran poorly at passenger speeds. There where a least one
shovelnose unit built with a 6 wheel power truck, but it was built
later.
The first E unit devlopment was on the Santa Fe and the B&O. The Q
didn't jump on the E unit bandwagon until EMD was up to the E6. The Q
wanted stainless steel units to match the rest of the fleet, and a nose
slope to match the shovelnoses, so EMD built 20 (?) units total and
called them E5's. They where the only E5's built. After this the Q
bought standard E7's, 8's, and 9's with stainless steel panels.
As far as years of service, I would have to look that up. I know the
Pioneer Zephyr made it's famous Denver-Chicago nonstop run in 1938. What
you saw on the program was most likely the Pioneer Zephyr. I missed this
week's program, so I can't be sure.
As to your other questions, I have no idea. I am more of a hardware fan
that a history fan.
Doug Menke
BTW...all the above info is avalible in issues of the "Burlington
Bulletin", a publication of the Burlington Route Historical Society. The
web page is at
http://www.burlingtonroute.com/default.htm
I am a member, and these publications are the best reference on the Q
there is.
Robin Rosenberg
Railway Museum and operates in excursion service.