Roadbed holes for Tortoise switch machines
Mark Mathu
Tortoise switch machines. This will be my first installation of these type of
machines. Unfortunately, I don't have the machines right now, and may not get
them for another week or so. But I don't want that to hold up layout
construction -- if possible.
What size hole is needed through the roadbed for the switch machines? The
layout is HO and I'm using Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts, Midwest cork
roadbed, and 3/4" plywood subroadbed. Is a 3/8" diameter hole through the
cork and plywood large enough?
--
Mark
Jon Miller
"The size of this hole should equal twice the total turnout throw (1/4"
works well for HO and S)."
You might might want to buy at least one Tortoise as the instructions
have a nice drilling template. You will want thicker wire (than they
provide) for the mount you described, maybe .035 or so.
Mark Mathu
> You might might want to buy at least one Tortoise as the instructions
> have a nice drilling template. You will want thicker wire (than they
> provide) for the mount you described, maybe .035 or so.
Yeah, I've read about the problems with the wire size and plan to replace it.
Do you think I shouldn't lay tracks in this area until I get my machines and
the drilling template?
Paul Tackowiak
could give the date.
I would advise the following - drill a 1" hole and be sure to replace the Tortoise
supplied rod with a piece of stiffer piano wire. The 1" hole gives you plenty of
leeway to adjust the position of the Tortoise. What you do once it's set is then
cover the hole with a very thin plate of styrene that has just a narrow slot cut
in it large enough for the rod to move in the direction it needs to.
The large hole lets you install the Tortoise easily from below. The cover plate
shrinks the hole back to minimal size before you ballast.
Paul T.
Mark Mathu
"Paul Tackowiak" <pt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3D950450...@optonline.net...
> MR did an article a while ago that had Tortoise installation tips. Perhaps
someone
> could give the date.
"Tortoise tips," Model Railroader, February 2000 page 104. I've got it out
right now - the article mostly covered remote mounting and modifying the
electrical connections. I'm looking at a standard under-the-table mounting,
with a hole through the subroadbed.
The author mentions using hot-melt glue to mount the motors under the layout.
It gives you a couple of seconds to position the machine and can be removed
with a knife blade. What do you think about that idea? My thoughts are since
this is a first-time installation for me, I'm better off mounting it with
screws.
> I would advise the following - drill a 1" hole and be sure to replace the
Tortoise
> supplied rod with a piece of stiffer piano wire. The 1" hole gives you
plenty of
> leeway to adjust the position of the Tortoise. What you do once it's set is
then
> cover the hole with a very thin plate of styrene that has just a narrow slot
cut
> in it large enough for the rod to move in the direction it needs to.
Thanks!
Jon Miller
drill from underneath as I've done it but it's not comfortable. If you are
really careful and stop before you hit the points. Only you know if you
could do this or not.
You are only buying two machines and not making a mass buy or anything
so I would say yes get the machines.
I mark everything out, test lay the track and switches and actually
drill from the top. So far I have used ME switches and drill the hole
outside the track. Center the points in the middle and drill a small hole,
then remove the switch and drill a large hole.
The suggestion of the large hole and a styrene insert sounds ok but I
have never tried it. Might be worth a shot!
Mark Mathu
> It's possible to drill from underneath as I've done it but it's not
comfortable.
Why not drill from above?
Jon Miller
me
at least, and the hot gluing of them as well) was discussed on
Trainorders. Here's the link to the thread:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?f=3&i=44815&t=44815
Fred Ellis
Mark,
The instructions that comes with the Tortoise switch machines say you
need to drill a 1/2 inch hole centered (NOT 3/8 or 1 inch). The way to
do this is temporally lay the turnout down where you want it. Center
the point rails between the stock rails. Using a pen or pencil stick it
through the hole in the trowbar that connects the point rails and place
a mark on the cork roadbed. This is where you drill your 1/2 inch hole
for the Tortoise throwbar wire to stick through.
This is the correct way to do it. I ought to now, I have installed
several dozen Tortise switch machines over the last sereral years.
Fred Ellis
--
Who do you serve. . . . And who do you trust?
(To e-mail me, remove the X from my address)
Mark Mathu
> The instructions that comes with the Tortoise switch machines say you
> need to drill a 1/2 inch hole centered (NOT 3/8 or 1 inch). The way to
> do this is temporally lay the turnout down where you want it. Center
> the point rails between the stock rails. Using a pen or pencil stick it
> through the hole in the trowbar that connects the point rails and place
> a mark on the cork roadbed. This is where you drill your 1/2 inch hole
> for the Tortoise throwbar wire to stick through.
Thank you, Fred.
I wondered if the 3/4" subroadbed might require a larger than normal hole.
(And I wasn't sure what "normal" was, since this is my first installation and
I haven't picked up the machines yet.)
Booker1067
wood with two slots cut into it, one at the top and another at the bottom. Now
mark these slots locations on the layout mounting area pass a screw through
both slots and anchor the scrap piece of wood with the switch machine attached
to the layout. Using the slots align your switch machine and tighten down the
mounting screws. Easy adjustmets, guick mounting and heaven forbid easy
replacement if the unit fails.
R, Hargrave Avondale AZ
Steve
wrote:
>Thank you, Fred.
>I wondered if the 3/4" subroadbed might require a larger than normal hole.
>(And I wasn't sure what "normal" was, since this is my first installation and
>I haven't picked up the machines yet.)
>
>
Mark
Let me first state that I've never installed a Tortoise - heaps of
NJIs/Tenshodo, but no Tortoise.
BUT - a friend of mine was faced with replacing old Kumata machines on
his layout under turnouts that were already laid. He did this by:
1. With a 1/16" drill held in the very tip of the chuck, drill from
the top through the tie bar, until the drill comes through the bottom
of the trackbed.
2. Using an old 1/2" drill (turned down shaft if you only have a 3/8"
drill motor), grind the tip away* until it is flat apart from a pimple
in the centre to locate the 1/2" drill. Wrap a piece of tape, or make
a sleeve/flange that slips over the drill exposing only enough flutes
to equal the thickness of roadbed/sub-roadbed.
3. Drill up from underneath with the pimple in the centre of the drill
locating the pre-drilled 1/16" hole (or you could run a 1/8 or 3/32
pilot drill through the ply), drill away. Stop when you hit the
tape/flange/depth gauge.
4. When you've got them, install your tortoise as per instructions.
Nice 1/2" hole waiting there for you!
Now, to any tradesman/craftsman among us, this will probably be
anathema. But it does work!
Steve
* - to further avoid wrath of horrified parties seeing this done to a
drill, I did say an OLD drill. Or a completely worn out, blunt,
stuffed one would be better!
Pac Man
Mark Mathu wrote in message ...
>What size hole is needed through the roadbed for the switch machines? The
>layout is HO and I'm using Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts, Midwest
cork
>roadbed, and 3/4" plywood subroadbed. Is a 3/8" diameter hole through the
>cork and plywood large enough?
Mark, I spot the switch first, then use a push pin to mark my pine
roadbed through the hole in the points. I remove the switch, then drill a
pilot hole of 1/4" through, then use a 1/2" drill to finish up. (I do this
as the bigger drills can tend to "walk" as it's going in, and smaller bits
don't do that as much). I also use .039" Dia. wire, instead of the .020"
that comes with the machine (and this means drilling out the actuator hole
in the Tortoise with a #61 drill bit, but you do not need to drill the pivot
slider, as it is big enough already).
I should note that at my club, all Tortoise (except those in "specialty"
locations) are mounted on a piece of 1/4" MDF (medium density fiberboard).
The MDF is originally cut into a rectangle shape (approx. 2"x6", I can't
remember the actual dims.) which is then drilled with a 1.5" hole saw right
in the middle. The resulting piece is than cut right in half through the
middle on the hole, giving you two identical 2"x3" boards that have a half
circle cut out of one end. The "fingers" that come from this make great
screw mounting positions, as it will keep the Tortoise up against the
sub-roadbed (and the half circle allows the wire to move without rubbing
against any kind of slot).
One last thing with the MDF, we use a drilling jig to spot all the holes
in the MDF, and gang drill them 3 at a time. There are seven holes, 4 for
the Tortoise, 1 on each "finger", and a single center hole in the back.
This is the hole we use to initially install the machine, as then we can
rotate the machine, board and all, to overcome any slight intallation
problems. Once in position, we sock it down with a screw through one of the
"fingers", and leave it at that.
Important install note: Make sure all is centered (machine and points,
forward, back and sideways) before putting the first screw in. The closer
everything is to the center, the less trouble you'll have. I have installed
80+ Tortoise machines in the past 3 years, so trust me... :-)
Also, we tried using 1/4" plywood without the "fingers", and we had to
go back and replace them as they all started to sag. MDF doesn't sag in the
same situation...
Paul A. Cutler III
Member, South Shore Model Railway Club, Inc., est. 1938, Hingham, MA
www.ssmrc.org
Chuck Card
We have become rather proficient at the chore of mounting Tortoises.
Our sub base has minimums matching yours.
We use the Circuitron suggested 1/2 diameter hole rather comfortably.
Particularly in HO going to an inch is overkill.
OTOH we can understand why that was suggested.
We too, cover our abyss with a slotted shim.
Because we were doing nearly a hundred, we built a drill jig for the
under mount.
It is just a block of wood with four sleeved holes for the mounting
screw positions, a carefully located centerline groove for the center
point of the throw wire, and two temporary mount holes.
We have learned through bitter experience that the Tortoise is rather
tolerant of being loose in the alignment game, but care is really needed
to get good operation.
The operational caution is we are talking Shinohara and Tortoise here.
We get "great" track operation long before we get "friendly" electrical
operation.
The inherent shorts of the Shinohara can be inconsistent with using the
onboard contacts in the Tortoise for frog polarity.
We run the contact through a relay because we don't want to risk the
Tortoise under short conditions (read the Circuitron literature
closely).
So, adjusting the throw balance turns out to be an electrical rather
than other issue.
For those like us who are doing the install after the fact, we offer a
hint.
We opted to do it from underneath where we didn't want to mess with flow
by pulling the Shinohara up.
We start using a hunk of the spring wire as a drill (the one everybdy
says to replace <grin>)
We convert it into a drill of sorts by grinding a chisel shape on the
end.
Chuck it in the eggbeater and drill down through the grommet in the
Shinohara throw bar with the throw bar centered in its throw.
The next step may seem wierd, but stick the "drill" in the hole, it will
be snug, and crawl underneath.
Align the "drill" with the centerline groove of the drill jig and drill
the mounting holes.
(do it then because you will not have a better chance to get the
alignmemnt so close).
Now, comes our tricky stuff.
It demands at least two players.
We very carefully insert a thin putty knife blade between the tie strip
and the base directly over the drilling site (yes, the "drill" has been
removed by then, so has the drill jig.)
Player number one (why is it always me? <grin>) crawls under with the
drill.
We use a brad point 1/2 drill.
Drill upward until the watcher sees the putty knife moving because you
are hitting it.
Caution!
As you are aware Homasote drills "badly"
I always withdraw and clear the flutes at least three times per plunge.
Now, withdraw the drill and putty knife.
From above use your favorite knife to trim the trivial rough edges.
It took far longer to type the above than it does to do the job.
We have done as many as four pair in a day.
Why so few?
Our promise to the rest is that the layout will be running when depart.
We spend a couple of hours carefully watching flow.
I'll mention yet another approach that sometimes is needed.
Our layout having sections that are 30 years of evolution implies that
some frogs are located in places where there is _no_ underside really
available.
We learned about the Circuitron Remote Tortoise Mount 800-6100.
You can use these critters in _wild_ ways.
We have one low headroom spot where the Tortoise is mounted under the
lower of two decks throwing a set of points on the upper deck.
Being Model Railroaders, we couldn't use the "mount" as it came out of
the box.
We really might have been able to do so, but it has what we consider a
drawback that we overcame.
The "mount" approach involves a throw lever much as in many twin coil
mounts.
In fact, we were able to "convert" about a dozen twin coils by simply
applying our adaptation.
Here we are talking twenty minute in and out and zero operational
impact.
What is the difference we added?
The Circuitron approach makes the pivot rod assembly somewhat permenant
(two right angle bends).
That bothered us.
So, we replace the under the table throw arm lever with our own.
The difference is that theirs is slotted for the bent wire.
Ours is simply a 7/16 diam brass button the same height as their plastic
lever.
Our button has a center hole for the throw wire.
It has a cross hole directly through the center.
That hole is tapped 6-32.
In pre construction on the bench we slip a stainless screw in the
threaded part and clamp it lightly on a dummy throw wire (piano wire).
Now we slip our lever arm in the other half of the threaded hole and
solder it in place.
By using things that will not take solder, we can still get it apart.
The net result?
We now have a lever arm assembly under the layout that can be removed or
adjusted one handed (because you rarely can get both hands near the
confined spot <grin>.
Overkill?
You bet!
Does it work?
We wouldn't tell others if we were not happy with it.
OTOH, the specs for our "new" layout say: "all turnouts shall be
removeable from above so that all wiring and switch motor service can be
accomplished on the bench".
Net, is we have become proficient at it, but it is a skill borne out of
a situation that should not prevail.
======================
Chuck Card in sunny Arizona
Unlimited Sunsets
Jerry Barnes
We use Tortoise on our Olympic Model Railroad Society. We drill a 1/2" hole
from the bottom after we mark a position for the whole and replace the wire
with a heavier wire. We use the accessory contacts to wire the frogs points
on our logging line. We have lost contact (open) on two machines and we will
replace them and install relays. Most of our main line has relays to power
the frogs. We still have a couple Switches (Turnouts) that are not wired
through relays.
We are now using my MRR PCB Relay found at the following WEB site.
http://home.att.net/~mrr_pcb/index.html
--
MRR PCB
Jerry F. Barnes
http://home.att.net/~mrr_pcb/index.html
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message
news:EX6l9.5648$om2.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
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Jon Miller
They may have changed the instructions but on the sheets I have they
mention 1/4" three times in the text and if you measure the hole on the
template it's 1/4". It also depends on scale and probably 1/2" works well
for O scale.
If there are doubts about the hole size take a sample piece of material,
drill the hole, and place the switch over it.
Jerry Barnes
Sorry for all the mistakes in my last post, I got in a hurry (Updated
message).
We use Tortoise on our Olympic Model Railroad Society layout. We position
the switch temporary then mark a position for the hole. We then drill a 1/2"
hole from the top through cork, 1/2" homosote and 3/4" plywood. We also
replace the 3.5" x .025" wire with .040" heavier wire. I have found that the
3.5" x .025" wire works fine with N scale.
We did use the Tortoise auxiliary contacts to wire the Walthers/Shinohara
code 75 switch (turnout) frog on our logging line. We have lost the
auxiliary contacts (opened) on two Tortoise machines and will
replace them with Tortoise machines and install relays. Most of our Mainline
Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts have relays to power the frogs. We still
have a couple Switches (Turnouts) that are not wired through relays. We also
found that the 8 pin Molex connectors are very good way to connect wires to
the Tortoise. We solder a 90 degree or straight Molex connector directly to
the Tortoise depending on the mounting position of the Tortoise.
We are now using my (new) MRR PCB Relay Boards found at the following WEB
site. Before we used a 4PDT Relay mounted to a perforated printed circuit
board. We would cut a relay socket hole in the perforated printed circuit
board, mount the socket then solder wire from the relay socket to screw
connectors. This worked fine but it took a lot of time to build it.
http://home.att.net/~mrr_pcb/index.html
Hope this is message is cleared and helps.
--
MRR PCB
Jerry F. Barnes
http://home.att.net/~mrr_pcb/index.html
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message
news:EX6l9.5648$om2.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Fred Dabney
>
I know it as a term for an old fashioned hand-cranked
drill- the sort with a crown gear and a knob that you turn
to rotate the shaft carrying the bit. It's an old term
but then who uses hand powered tools anymore?
I fully expect to see batery powered hammers the next
time I go to Harbor Freight.
hmmmm......
Anyway, I keep one in my toolbox at the club. Often it's
quicker that tracking down an outlet or extension cord
for a power drill. Especially if I only need a couple
of holes.
> I came, I saw, screw it.
Frequently the most reasonable response...
Fred D.
Paul Tackowiak
I've tried hot gluing certain parts to the benchwork and have had a few of them
fall off over time. You could do it as a quick way to single-handedly get the
Tortoise in place and then use a couple of screws for insurance.
As you can see from all the replies, a great many people have wrestled with the
Tortoise challange and come up with their favorite ways to install them. What you
should do once you get one is practice on a spare piece of plywood. Depending on
your mechanical or carpentry skills you can then begin to pick and choose from
some of the helpful hints offered on rmr.
If you're doing this alone for the first time, you may find mounting a switch
motor under the track to be a bit disconcerting. From above everything is obvious,
but from below there's no clues. If possible, drill a few small holes along the
centerline of the track so that you can connect the dots underneath and get a
sense for which way the Tortoise should be oriented. As many suggest, mounting the
Tortoise to a thin piece of wood before you go below will help you a great deal.
The screw mounting slots on the Tortoise can be frustratingly small when you're on
your back reaching up. Having some screws set and ready to go will help a great
deal - as will pre-wiring leads to the Tortoise before mounting it.
Good luck.
Paul T.
Mark Mathu wrote:
Dave Henk
writes:
> What size hole is needed through the roadbed for the switch machines? The
>> layout is HO and I'm using Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts, Midwest
>cork
>> roadbed, and 3/4" plywood subroadbed. Is a 3/8" diameter hole through the
>> cork and plywood large enough?
On our HO scale club layout we used a Roto-Zip Tool to cut a 1/2" slot under
the throw bar. We marked the center of the throw bar and drew a guide line.
Slot went down through 1/4" cork roadbed, 1/2" Homasote, and 1/2" plywood.
Have drilled in the past but you always seem to get a hole showing up arounf
the throw bar sides. Slot you won't see. Tortoise machines are screwed into the
1/2 plywood fo easy mounting.
Dave Henk
Jacksonville, FL
mad scientist
"Fred Dabney" <fda...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:3d95f...@oracle.zianet.com...
> > >Chuck it in the eggbeater and drill down
> >
> > Eggbeater? Is that a local slang term for some tool?
>
> I know it as a term for an old fashioned hand-cranked
> drill- the sort with a crown gear and a knob that you turn
> to rotate the shaft carrying the bit. It's an old term
Bit and brace, maybe?
> but then who uses hand powered tools anymore?
> I fully expect to see batery powered hammers the next
> time I go to Harbor Freight.
You can get those black powder fired hammers used for driving nails into
concrete. It's not battery operated, but just as much fun.
Fred Dabney
> > >
> > > Eggbeater? Is that a local slang term for some tool?
> >
> > I know it as a term for an old fashioned hand-cranked
> > drill- the sort with a crown gear and a knob that you turn
> > to rotate the shaft carrying the bit. It's an old term
>
> Bit and brace, maybe?
The ones I'm speaking of look a lot like a real, manual
egg-beater. Handle and chuck on a shaft. The shaft has
a bevel gear, some have two, and at right angles to the
shaft is a crown gear which is held against the bevel,
and a knob on the opposite side of the crown which
serves as the crank handle.
When someone says "bit and brace" to me, I think of
the old carpenters tool that looks like a crankshaft
for an engine.
Fred D.
KTØT
auction on ebay. A very high quality photo BTW.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769340173
Some fancier models are two-speed.
The other hand drill that is used for large holes is a brace. There is a
picture of a brace and a hand drill at this auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2056547364
The brace has a direction latch so it can ratchet either forward or
backwards. I recall using one of these to help my dad wire up a cabin many
years ago.
--
73 de KTØT
Bob Schwartz
Modeling Waseca, MN in the 50s
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769340173
"Fred Dabney" <fda...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:3d973...@oracle.zianet.com...
: > > > >Chuck it in the eggbeater and drill down
:
Alexandre D.
Just drill trought them and cut so that only the right amount of drill bit shows.
I tried it (for other purposes than modelling) and you'll never drill too deep again !
"Steve" <sjm...@yahoo.nospam.com> a écrit dans le message de news: 3d95a33a...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Fred Dabney
is on this
> auction on ebay. A very high quality photo BTW.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769340173
> Some fancier models are two-speed.
That's what I was trying to describe. I have one by "Yankee"
which has a fancy rachet. Slide the selector and it gives you
forward only, another notch and it backs up, another notch
and it locks the shaft so you can better tighten the chuck,
and the other notch lets it drill forward no matter which
way you turn the crank. All these uni-directional positions
work with the handle turning normally and ratchet freely
the other direction.
That backward only position is a bit disconcerting, but
it served a purpose for me. When I was in the Air Force,
there was a guy who was always borrowing tools and
either breaking them or not returning them.
I had managed to overheat a twist drill by using it in
an electric drill at too high a speed in some hardwood.
It softened enough that it reversed the flutes!
So, I kept it in the handle of the Yankee, and this bird
comes around to borrow it one day. I explain that since
I'm left handed, all my tools have to be special and most
folk can't use them. I demonstrated by pulling out my
reversed bit, latcing the drill in reverse and showed him
how it would only cut running backwards.
No more problems from him after that...
I used to have one that had a handle that was arranged
like an egg-beater which made it very short, quite useful
for close in work, but the crown gear was nylon and over
a period of time it warped so it no longer worked, it
just spun free. Pity as I liked it.
Fred D.