Why hasn't the Gorre & Daphetid been redone?
Dave Grund
As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
I used to 'fantasize' years ago of Model Railroader Magazine sponsoring
the infamous Malcolm Furlow to redo it and set it up as a prize museum
somewhere, or Malcom doing it himself, or some rich guy forking over the
money to have it faithuflly recreated for nostaligic reasons.
Speaking of Malcolm, my favorite RR'er, anyone know what he's up to
these days? I understand he started making some really good money as a
western art painter, is this true? I know that the model railroading bug
stopped biting me about 5 years ago, but as it always does, it JUST
rebit me again (and look at all I missed! Standardized DCC, almost all
loco's running exceptionally well, Proto 2000 with thier outstanding
detail, etc) and I'll bet this is what happened to Malcom. Imagine what
kinda work he'll do when the bug 'returns'! :)
Grundman
gf
WMFisher40 wrote in message
<199804220152...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>The Grundman wrote:
>
>>As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>>I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>>recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
>
> Sounds kind of squicky and blasphemous to me. I mean,
>what if Michelangelo's "Last Supper" were destroyed, and
>all we had left were photos -- do you think it'd be a good
>idea to hire a good painter to recreate it?
Instead of "recreate" how about "reasonable facimilie thereof"""???
Just trying to get away from that territory called "balsphemy and sacrilege"
:)
GF
>
> - Bill F.
>
WMFisher40
The Grundman wrote:
>As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
Sounds kind of squicky and blasphemous to me. I mean,
what if Michelangelo's "Last Supper" were destroyed, and
all we had left were photos -- do you think it'd be a good
idea to hire a good painter to recreate it?
- Bill F.
ATSF01
>Subject: Why hasn't the Gorre & Daphetid been redone?<BR>
Do I dare try to answer this question?
If I were to try, I'd say that today's modeling has taken on more of a serious
tone.
The best respected modelers today try to model a more prototypical theme than
that of John Allen. Less Disney and more true to life scenes. even to go as far
as to try to limit modeling compression.
{I know , the more I say on this subject, the more rope I'll have to hang
myself with)
But with all the wonderful products avalible to us today it's easer to model
"real life". something John did to some extent with what he himself had to work
with.
Look...... for his time he was in deed great. And it did'nt hurt that he worked
with the model press to share and infulence the modelers of the time.Sort of
lead the modeling theme of the day, as you Dave have been lead. But ask your
self were there other modelers that were as great or greater that were not
published, and we never knew about?????
Back to the question.
>Subject: Why hasn't the Gorre & Daphetid been redone?<BR>
I would say it has been redone, somewhere many times over in basements all over
the country, Thanks to John Allen. (Look at Northlands) It's just not what the
model press is looking for today. Our hobby and It's modelers are working
towards more beliveable, more protiypical models and layout's.
As for Malcolm Furlow, I'll bet he is on the net somewhere. There is a guy that
I too would love to meet. He really took the John Allen stuff to a higher
level, plus a whole lot of other MAGIC with his photos. It May be time to look
up his name on Deja News!!!
I dont mean any Insults with my comments, Just trying to answer your question,
Dave as truthfully as I can.( from My Bunker in the bluff's.}
Ken Patterson
St. Louis Mo
ATSF01
I have no idea why what I just sent, is all one bug paragraph , with no space
between paragraphs. I did not type it that way. Hummm
Guess John Allen is trying to tell me something?
Ken Patterson
Don Mitchell
Dave Grund wrote --
>
>As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
Closest I've seen to the G&D was a layout built by Lila Martin. She
lived in the LA area, and her layout was written up in one of the
magazines many years ago.
Don Mitchell
G&D Operator
Don Mitchell
Ken Patterson wrote --
>
>As for Malcolm Furlow, I'll bet he is on the net somewhere. There is a
>guy that >I too would love to meet. He really took the John Allen stuff
>to a higher >level, plus a whole lot of other MAGIC with his photos. It
> May be time to look >up his name on Deja News!!!
----------------
Big difference between John and Malcolm is that John designed his
layouts for operation. Malcolm's layouts were designed for scenic
viewing and train running. Subtle but very significant design
concepts.
Don Mitchell
Andy Harman
On 22 Apr 1998 04:30:34 GMT, ats...@aol.com (ATSF01) wrote:
>I have no idea why what I just sent, is all one bug paragraph
It's a bug paragraph, so that the frogs will have something to eat
between the words, so they can stay out of the way of the possums and
pelicans...
Andy
Visit the Prototype Modelers Group Web Page at http://w3.one.net/~aharman/index.html
Sorry I must resort to anti-spam practice, reply to aharman at one (spelled out) dot net
DrPop3
One layout I think comes close to Allens layout is by the man who owns FSM .
His layout is called ______ South Manchester
Michael Wright
mau...@xxxxxxepix.net
For what it's worth:
I recently read in a back issue of Model Railroader Magazine that a man
in France had recreated the original 4x8 Gorre & Daphetid (actually
something like 3'7" by 7'). Unfortunately, I'm currently re-organizing
my collection and can't find the issue. I think the title was "G&D in a
French mirror". I wonder if the frenchman ever went further with it?
Maurice
Tom Reid
The following citation is in the Model Train Magazine Database:
The Sierra & White River RR, 11x16
MR 2/1983 p78
( LAYOUT, "MARTIN, LILA", TRACKPLAN, HO )
Trackplan is 11x16
- Walk-in plan
- Modular - standard joints
- Multi-level
- Standard gauge
- Continuous operation
- Freight yard
- Engine terminal
- Engine terminal with turntable
Tom Reid
Geren Mortensen
That's the Franklin & South Manchester, and the owner is George Selios.
DrPop3 wrote in message <199804220903...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Tim O'Connor
DrPop3 wrote:
> One layout I think comes close to Allens layout is by the man who owns FSM .
> His layout is called ______ South Manchester
>
> Michael Wright
George Selios .... Franklin & South Manchester ... owner of Fine Scale
Miniatures.
And yes, he is the heir to John Allen's G&D, in every sense.
But Malcolm Furlow ??? Give me a break!
Tim O'Connor
Avici Systems http://www.avici.com
Chelmsford, Massachusetts
Art VanDeWater
DrPop3 wrote:
>
> One layout I think comes close to Allens layout is by the man who owns FSM .
> His layout is called ______ South Manchester
>
> Michael Wright
Manchester
nshpmsi
DrPop3 wrote:
>
> One layout I think comes close to Allens layout is by the man who owns FSM .
> His layout is called ______ South Manchester
>
> Michael Wright
George Sellios of Fine Scale Miniatures in Peabody MA has an HO layout
named The Franklin & South Manchester. I understand he opens it for
tours one or two Saturdays a month by appointment only and I've been
told there is now a small fee charged but it is well worth it. I plan
to take the tour when I get the chance.
Scott Fuller
Derry, NH
--
Please remove ns preceeding hpmsi from email address to reply
Steve Anderson
A number of years ago and article appeared in MR about someone who built a
layout inspired by the G & D. Even though is was not an exact copy I
believe he incorporated John Allen's original layout into his design. There
were also many similarities between both track plans.
Dave Grund wrote in message <353D34BB...@iswest.com>...
>As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
>
Dave Grund
Yes, ABSOLUTELY, George Sellios, the Franklin and South Manchester I
beleive.
Definately picked up the reigns Malcom left off, he models city scenes
as well or better than ol John, and like John is very good at mass
producing alot very quickly and making it look superdetailed....
Grundman
Dave Grund
Nice response, no offense taken! :)
FYI, just so you guys know (this seemed to be quite an issue with alot
of you who responded) I AM a 'prototypical modeller' and proud of it. I
model the Southern Pacific from the early 70's to the very early 80's,
my favorite loco being the umbiquious SD40T-2 and the SD9.
That said, mountain railroading is one of any SP modellers forte, and to
this date, no one NO ONE modeled gigantic, breathtaking intimidating
mountains like John (although I give Malcolm Furlow a nod as the second
best to be sure, my second favorite modeller and favorite writer).
Anyone else see 6' high off the floor bridges, or floor to ceiling
mountain ranges (other than small 'show off' areas)?
Also, apparently alot of you didn't know that John Allan ran VERY strict
prototypical operations on his layout, despite the 'disney' atmosphere
you alluded too; in fact I understand he was quite anal about it,
especially about the ol standby the 'five finger' pusher/helper.
Thanks for your responses, good reading.
Grundman
ATSF01 wrote:
>
> >Subject: Why hasn't the Gorre & Daphetid been redone?<BR>
>
> Do I dare try to answer this question?
> If I were to try, I'd say that today's modeling has taken on more of a serious
> tone.
> The best respected modelers today try to model a more prototypical theme than
> that of John Allen. Less Disney and more true to life scenes. even to go as far
> as to try to limit modeling compression.
> {I know , the more I say on this subject, the more rope I'll have to hang
> myself with)
> But with all the wonderful products avalible to us today it's easer to model
> "real life". something John did to some extent with what he himself had to work
> with.
> Look...... for his time he was in deed great. And it did'nt hurt that he worked
> with the model press to share and infulence the modelers of the time.Sort of
> lead the modeling theme of the day, as you Dave have been lead. But ask your
> self were there other modelers that were as great or greater that were not
> published, and we never knew about?????
>
> Back to the question.
>
> >Subject: Why hasn't the Gorre & Daphetid been redone?<BR>
>
> I would say it has been redone, somewhere many times over in basements all over
> the country, Thanks to John Allen. (Look at Northlands) It's just not what the
> model press is looking for today. Our hobby and It's modelers are working
> towards more beliveable, more protiypical models and layout's.
>
> As for Malcolm Furlow, I'll bet he is on the net somewhere. There is a guy that
> I too would love to meet. He really took the John Allen stuff to a higher
> level, plus a whole lot of other MAGIC with his photos. It May be time to look
> up his name on Deja News!!!
>
Tim O'Connor
Dave Grund wrote:
> That said, mountain railroading is one of any SP modellers forte, and to
> this date, no one NO ONE modeled gigantic, breathtaking intimidating
> mountains like John (although I give Malcolm Furlow a nod as the second
> best to be sure, my second favorite modeller and favorite writer).
> Anyone else see 6' high off the floor bridges, or floor to ceiling
> mountain ranges (other than small 'show off' areas)?
Dave, as an SP modeler, you should give yourself 3 lashes with a
feather duster (whack whack whack). Ok. You should know that the
San Diego RR Museum club layout has done a TO SCALE replica of
part of the SD&AE's line from San Diego to the Imperial Valley -- this
includes a HUGE mountain with trestles modeled as they really are, to
scale. They were featured a few years ago in MR or RMC or one of the
other mags. I recall the article mentioned the amount of plaster in the
mountain and it was in the hundreds (thousands?) of pounds.
They also have a TO SCALE replica of Caliente, a few miles below
the famous Tehachapi Loop ... and it has been featured in many mag
photos.
True, no one has done Donner Summit to scale, but since the height
difference from Donner Lake up to Cape Horn would be what -- 15 or
20 feet in HO? -- there are practical reasons why mountains are
usually reduced in size.
Tim, who hopes to model a much-reduced Cantara Loop and a few
other breathtaking Cascade line features ....
Don Mitchell
Tim O'Connor wrote --
>
>Dave, as an SP modeler, you should give yourself 3 lashes with a
>feather duster (whack whack whack). Ok. You should know that the
>San Diego RR Museum club layout has done a TO SCALE replica of
>part of the SD&AE's line from San Diego to the Imperial Valley -- this
>includes a HUGE mountain with trestles modeled as they really are, to
>scale. They were featured a few years ago in MR or RMC or one of the
>other mags. I recall the article mentioned the amount of plaster in the
>mountain and it was in the hundreds (thousands?) of pounds.
------------------------
There are 2 layouts in the Museum based on the SD&AE line -- the SD&AE of
the San Diego Model RR Club, and the Pacific Desert Lines of the San
Diego Society of N Scale. Neither are "to scale". The PDL has the more
accurate model of the Carriso Gorge trestle; the SD&AE has all the
plaster -- 2 to 3 tons of hydrocal.
------------------------
>They also have a TO SCALE replica of Caliente, a few miles below
>the famous Tehachapi Loop ... and it has been featured in many mag
>photos.
------------------------
The La Mesa Club's model of Tehachapi Pass is about 65% of actual scale
along the length of Caliente (and elsewhere), but is further compressed
perpendicular to the length and between major scenes. All structures
are modeled 100% scale.
Don Mitchell
G&D operator now helping build Tehachapi Pass
JimVice
In article <353E0E21...@avici.com>, Tim O'Connor <toco...@avici.com>
writes:
>But Malcolm Furlow ??? Give me a break!
>
>
Malcolm is no longer into model railroading. Not enough money in it!
SLSFDL1632
Although it would be neat to see the G&D reborn as it were. It would be even
better if someone with the resources and talents of a John Allen would build
something new, something different. We are fortunte in that there are films and
pictures,books, and articles that covered the G&D and what a great layout it
was, but the time for the G&D has passed and it's on to new adventures.
Dave
in Kansas
Ron Gardner
I think with what we have today it would be easy, but it would never equal
John's work. He wrote the "Old Testiment" of model railroading and just as
we would not rewrite the bible we should let his work alone. Not to say
you you can't use his theory, I myself am his greatest follower and am
building a 20 x 20 floor to ceiling layout with 7 foot mountains, a
canyons.
WMFisher40 wrote:
> The Grundman wrote:
>
> >As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
> >I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
> >recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
>
roger traviss
: Although it would be neat to see the G&D reborn as it were. It would be even
The G&D never was one of my favourite MRRs. Ditto for the Franklin and
South Manchester (If that's the correct name) nor anything from Furlow
(Remeber him?).
These models just don't look realistic. Too much of a characature(sp) for
my liking.
Sacrilige to some, I know.
Cheers,
Roger Traviss
From showery Victoria, BC Canada
JBortle
The impression of the modeling methology used by John Allen, that Ken P. points
out as being caricature rather than true to the prototype (as most of today's
modelers supposedly are), brings up an interesting observation I've made as a
model photographer myself. When John did illustrations for articles on or
associated with the G&D, or the Varney ads, the scenes were indeed typically of
the caricature-type. However, when he did stand-alone shots in Trackside
Photos, etc., or to accompany how-to articles on model photography, the photos
were most often completely prototypical and certainly rival the best work done
today.
I've often thought that John liked to make fun of his modeling abilities (John
was always said to be a joker and trickster) but with regard to specialty
items, reverted to the high standards of his occupation as a professional
photographer.
jb
Milwau...@home.in.my.basement.org
Bill's comments remind me of the absolute furor that was
generated in the hobby magazines when MDC came out with cars lettered
for the G&D. Sacrilege, blasphemy, etc. I thought it was a fitting
tribute to a great modeler. I would only hope that someday when I am
long gone that someone would think enough of me to do the same.
That being said, I do have to agree partially with Roger T.,
that these railroads are very personalized. I don't know if I would
go so far as charicatured but they are definitely far from average in
setting, theme, or modeller. I was definitely un-enthused by the
Denver and Rio Chama Western in that MRR video I paid $30 for way back
when. hehe 'Course I'm a diesel man anyway <G>.
Cheers
>->> The Grundman wrote:
>->>
>->> >As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>->> >I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>->> >recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
>->>
>->> Sounds kind of squicky and blasphemous to me. I mean,
>->> what if Michelangelo's "Last Supper" were destroyed, and
>->> all we had left were photos -- do you think it'd be a good
>->> idea to hire a good painter to recreate it?
>->>
>->> - Bill F.
>->
>->
>->
RhinoP
Regarding the question, "Why doesn't someone rebuild the Gorre & Daphetid?"
It took John Allen 10 years in his third home to build it. Can any group
justify expenses for such a project? If so, I wish them well.
John never built anything twice if he didn't need to do so. If the G&D had
burned before he passed away, I suspect that he would not have rebuilt it. I
think that he would have planned and built something better.
Just my opinion.
Rich
ATSF01
> the photos<BR>
>were most often completely prototypical and certainly rival the best work
>today.<BR>
> rival the best work done<BR>
The word rival is a bit strong, as used here. I don't agree.
Ken Patterson
Mark Alan Miller
If John Allen were alive and starting a layout today, I'm sure he would
build something significantly different from the Gorre and Daphetid. The
G&D was an excellent layout, but it was of its time. Modern electronics and
products have made things possible that John Allen could only dream about.
It would be nice to see someone combine the best of John Allen's techniques
with modern idea about operations and scenic construction.
Mark Alan Miller
Matthew J. Frahm wrote in message ...
>WMFisher40 <wmfis...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The Grundman wrote:
>
>>>As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
>>>I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
>>>recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
>
>> Sounds kind of squicky and blasphemous to me. I mean,
>> what if Michelangelo's "Last Supper" were destroyed, and
>> all we had left were photos -- do you think it'd be a good
>> idea to hire a good painter to recreate it?
>
>And if someone has a bunch of talent, why not use it for something new
>instead of copying the old?
>
>
>
>--
>Matthew J. Frahm____________________________mailto:mfrahm(at)visi.com
>Stillwater, Minnesota / Winona, Minnesota http://www.visi.com/~mfrahm/
>Dakota, Minnesota & Eastern Railroad editor, CTC Board Magazine
>MP 0.0, DM&E's Waseca Subdivision MP 308.6, CP's River Subdivision
Don Mitchell
Mark Alan Miller wrote --
>
>If John Allen were alive and starting a layout today, I'm sure he would
>build something significantly different from the Gorre and Daphetid. The
>G&D was an excellent layout, but it was of its time. Modern electronics and
>products have made things possible that John Allen could only dream about.
>It would be nice to see someone combine the best of John Allen's techniques
>with modern idea about operations and scenic construction.
Maybe, maybe not. John had his own ideas about what he enjoyed in the
hobby and wanted to accomplish, and certainly wasn't one to follow the
crowd just for the sake of being politically correct.
Don Mitchell
One of the G&D operators
F. DABNEY
On 22 Apr 1998, Don Mitchell wrote:
> Dave Grund wrote --
> >
> >As a lifetime model railroader (I'm 35), and this being the late 90's,
> >I'm surprised that some one, somewhere hasn't tried to faithfully
> >recreate John Allens unsurpassed G&D RR.
> --------------
>
> Closest I've seen to the G&D was a layout built by Lila Martin. She
> lived in the LA area, and her layout was written up in one of the
> magazines many years ago.
I can think of many reasons it's not been done.
To start with, the present trend is more to accurate depictions of real
railroading activities, away from the free-for-all carnival that a lot of
layouts in his era represented. Even he freely admitted he'd been better
off not using such a cutesy-poo name because he got sick of it. And it
was truly a caricature of a railroad, not a model, just as Fontaine Fox's
"Toonerville Trolley" was a caricature.
Many of his models too were caricatures as well, and even in an era far
more forgiving of loose standards of prototype accuracy, many of his
engines in particular were criticized because he just piled on castings to
make his stuff /look/ heavy, without regard to the fact that he might have
two different feedwater systems on the boiler, too many air pumps, etc.
I could go on in this vein, but on that other hand, he was truly a pioneer
in many aspects of model railroading. He developed techniques for model
building we all use without thought today. He was perhaps the first
modeler with any national reputation to use weathering- something which
caused outrage in many circles.
But what might be the biggest obstacle is that John is gone. Anyone else
with the talent to do such a layout is going to be interested in creating
his/her /own/ dream, not indulge in a sterile exercise.
We may all get a kick out of this or that aspect of his layout, even
incorporate some of it on our own layouts. But I doubt if there are many
who could bring it off and also want to.
The biggest criticism of "Northlanz" is that it is a huge collection of
the things that defined Allen's layout, wrote over-big, without the whimsy
that characterized Gorre, and has, as a result, become a caricature of a
caricature.
Listen to something obscure from the world of early blues and jazz with
host Fred Dabney at 9 pm on Friday and Saturday nights on KRWG, 90.7 FM,
Las Cruces, NM. <fda...@nmsu.edu>
Don Mitchell
F. DABNEY wrote --
>To start with, the present trend is more to accurate depictions of real
>railroading activities, away from the free-for-all carnival that a lot of
>layouts in his era represented. Even he freely admitted he'd been better
>off not using such a cutesy-poo name because he got sick of it. And it
>was truly a caricature of a railroad, not a model, just as Fontaine Fox's
>"Toonerville Trolley" was a caricature.
Not "freely admitted". It may be true he came to dislike the G&D name,
but I never heard him say so during the last 10 years of his life when
I was a G&D operator.
>Many of his models too were caricatures as well, and even in an era far
>more forgiving of loose standards of prototype accuracy, many of his
>engines in particular were criticized because he just piled on castings to
>make his stuff /look/ heavy, without regard to the fact that he might have
>two different feedwater systems on the boiler, too many air pumps, etc.
Not "many of his models", but a few that were mostly used for photo
purposes in the Varney ads. I heard him defend his steam loco detailing
once. He maintained that everything was appropos to the particular
operating conditions of the G&D (i.e., mountain railroading) and gave
the locos a family look. However, somebody more knowledgeable about
steam than me should have the final say.
>I could go on in this vein, but on that other hand, he was truly a pioneer
>in many aspects of model railroading. He developed techniques for model
>building we all use without thought today. He was perhaps the first
>modeler with any national reputation to use weathering- something which
>caused outrage in many circles.
Some of John's scenic techiques still haven't been approached, especially
when it comes to creating believable urban scenes in a limited area.
George Selios' is perhaps the closest that has been published, but those
pix of the F&SM I've seen don't show the perspective effect built into
the G&D.
>But what might be the biggest obstacle is that John is gone. Anyone else
>with the talent to do such a layout is going to be interested in creating
>his/her /own/ dream, not indulge in a sterile exercise.
>
>We may all get a kick out of this or that aspect of his layout, even
>incorporate some of it on our own layouts. But I doubt if there are many
>who could bring it off and also want to.
Agree that there's no reason to duplicate the G&D, but there's still a
lot of things John did that haven't been reached by those more oriented
to "pure" scale modeling. The is a photo of John in an old MR Bull
Session column showing John and (I think) Jim Findlay down on their knees
measuring the car-to-car separation inside the diaphragms of a Reader
RR train. Believe me, John used that measurement to get exact coupler
placement and car spacing on similar cars on the G&D. The same attention
to detail was reflected in other areas of the G&D but is almost always
overlooked because of the appeal (sensational, at that time) of his Varney
ads.
>The biggest criticism of "Northlanz" is that it is a huge collection of
>the things that defined Allen's layout, wrote over-big, without the whimsy
>that characterized Gorre, and has, as a result, become a caricature of a
>caricature.
Northlandz appears to be all caricature; only a few elements of the G&D were.
Don
andrew hebron
G'day Roger,
roger traviss wrote:
>
>
> The G&D never was one of my favourite MRRs. Ditto for the Franklin and
> South Manchester (If that's the correct name) nor anything from Furlow
> (Remeber him?).
>
> These models just don't look realistic. Too much of a characature(sp) for
> my liking.
>
> Sacrilige to some, I know.
>
> I have to admit to the exact opposite 8-).
What styles gets you all fired up?
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks mate.
rgds,
Andrew.
roger traviss
andrew hebron (and...@mailbox.uq.edu.au) wrote:
: G'day Roger,
: > The G&D never was one of my favourite MRRs. Ditto for the Franklin and
: > South Manchester (If that's the correct name) nor anything from Furlow
: > (Remember him?).
: >
: > These models just don't look realistic. Too much of a caracature(sp) for
: > my liking.
: What styles gets you all fired up?
: Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks mate.
G'day Andrew.
What styles get me all fired up?
I guess the first and foremost is the V&O. I've admired that model
railroad since I first came across it in the 1970 series in Railroad Model
Craftsman. Other models I look out for are the "Midland Road" the "Utah
Belt" the "Yosemite Valley", Rideout's "L&N", the "Berkshire Lines" and a
few others.
While I strive not to model other model railroads, I do try to follow the
style set by all the above. That is, "realism" and not "Model
railroadism" if such a word exists. (It does now, I've just created it).
I run my 12ft x 16ft "Canadian Great Eastern" to a sequence that I hope
reflects a realistic traffic flow that emulates the rail traffic between
Montreal and the various American railines to the south. At least, as
well as can be modelled in such a small space and with a maximum train
length of 16 cars.
While I don't go in for "super detail", my very poor eyesight doesn't
allow too much of that these days, I do try to add extra details to the
diesels and vans (Cabooses) but just rely on weathering for freight
cars to make them fit into the "Big Picture". Nothing goes onto the CGE
without weathering.
I guess, in a nutshell, that I follow the prototype for inspiration and
the "good enough" school when it comes to models and details.
Cheers,
Roger Traviss
From sunny Victoria, BC Canada
Ted Wurzburg
F. DABNEY wrote:
>
Snip
>
> The biggest criticism of "Northlanz" is that it is a huge collection of
> the things that defined Allen's layout, wrote over-big, without the whimsy
> that characterized Gorre, and has, as a result, become a caricature of a
> caricature.
>
will likely bring more young people into the hobby than merit badges,
GATS shows, and anything else I can think of. Someday, a bunch of 'em
might even turn into prototype modellers or full-fledfged rivet
counters. Northlandz, for all its excesses, is a great thing for the
hobby.
WMFisher40
JB says:
>
>The impression of the modeling methology used by John Allen, that Ken P.
>points
>out as being caricature rather than true to the prototype (as most of today's
>modelers supposedly are), brings up an interesting observation I've made as a
and I say:
I've been doing some heavyweight thinking about modeling, and I think the
idea of caricature comes pretty close to the heart of it. The point of it is
to
capture the essence of the real thing using much less that the real thing uses.
Think of the drawings of Al Hirschfield (I think his name is), who specializes
in entertainment figures: he captures their essence, with a truly great
economy of line. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to eliminate
detail, because for you that detail may be the essence. John Allen elegantly
captured the essence of the G&D.
And the essence of a railroad can be different for different viewers. I
really
like the work of guys who model operation very accurate (Don Daily's
article in Tony Koester's mag comes to mind), because I can see
that they're viewing the railroad from the viewpoint of a railroader, in
particular an engineer or conductor, where getting the trains form point A
to point B is the essence. But that's not me: I was the kid standing by the
tracks when it went by, and looking into the yards. So for me, the essence
is trains going past, much clutter, a lot of back-and-forthing in the yards,
smoke, whistles, the smells of hot oil and coal smoke. And if I succeed
in my artistic modeling job, somebody who grew up with me can visit my
layout and come away saying "That's it!! That's exactly the it was, growing up
in Frankfort!"
- Bill F. (who makes a living modeling languages)
Van Gogh was not a rivet-counter.
- Anon
F. DABNEY
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Ted Wurzburg wrote:
> While the various charaterizations of Northlandz are likely true, it
> will likely bring more young people into the hobby than merit badges,
> GATS shows, and anything else I can think of. Someday, a bunch of 'em
> might even turn into prototype modellers or full-fledfged rivet
> counters. Northlandz, for all its excesses, is a great thing for the
> hobby.
Possibly true- one can hope it does. Everybody starts somewhere. NO one
is born with a Kato loco in each hand, save Andy...
Fred D.
Andy Harman
On Fri, 1 May 1998 14:27:57 -0600, "F. DABNEY" <fda...@NMSU.Edu>
wrote:
>Possibly true- one can hope it does. Everybody starts somewhere. NO one
>is born with a Kato loco in each hand, save Andy...
Hey, I'm not as old as you but I'm older than any Kato locos... at
least those familiar to the U.S. market.
And the truth of the matter is, I was born with an Athearn Hustler in
my left hand, a Mantua Shifter in my right hand, a Partagas (Havana,
they were legal then) 8-9-8 in my mouth, and my birth certificate
stamped with a 15% discount on all train items at Walts Hobby Shop...
Andy
Visit the Prototype Modelers Group Web Page at http://w3.one.net/~aharman/index.html
Sorry I must resort to anti-spam practice, reply to aharman at one (spelled out) dot net
dm
After all the talk of the G & D I've been rereading my worn copy of
Model Railroading w/ John Allen. One feature that I'd like more info on is
the 'water meter'. With all the electronics today is there a simple way to
add this feature to an "O" gauge layout?
I see on the NG that Don Mitchell operated the G & D. I feel like a
little kid with a long list for Santa but can't remember a thing when face
to face with him. If my brain lock goes away I hope Don won't mind if I ask
some questions about the G & D.
Don
Don Mitchell
dm wrote --
>
> After all the talk of the G & D I've been rereading my worn copy of
>Model Railroading w/ John Allen. One feature that I'd like more info on is
>the 'water meter'. With all the electronics today is there a simple way to
>add this feature to an "O" gauge layout?
"Water meter" was a _watt_ meter, i.e., the same device used to measure
how much electricity used in your house. John's premise was that the
actual power used by a steamer could be equated to the amount of water
used on its run. The meter was hooked in series with the throttle. As
for an electronic equivalent, you'll have to ask others.
> I see on the NG that Don Mitchell operated the G & D. I feel like a
>little kid with a long list for Santa but can't remember a thing when face
>to face with him. If my brain lock goes away I hope Don won't mind if I ask
>some questions about the G & D.
No problem with more questions about the G&D, but you'll have to assure
the ng that I'm not writing myself under the moniker Don M. <g>
Don Mitchell
Russ
Ted Wurzburg wrote:
> While the various charaterizations of Northlandz are likely true, it
> will likely bring more young people into the hobby than merit badges,
> GATS shows, and anything else I can think of. Someday, a bunch of 'em
> might even turn into prototype modellers or full-fledfged rivet
> counters. Northlandz, for all its excesses, is a great thing for the
> hobby.
I agree with you fully. There hasn't been anything new on this scale in
years (in the northeast)! Roadside America and the Choo Choo Barn, both
in easter PA are also beautiful layouts which tickle the fancy of all
who visit. Northlannz is really on of the fist mega layouts to grace
the Garden State in some time. People can critique it to no end but its
definetely a positive move for the hobby in the north east. When I was
a child i played with my lionels and HO's. Today kids play video games
and the internet. Show me a kid who can lay roadbed and track today,
there's not many. Northlanz keeps trains on the mind of our youngsters
all year long and that is a good thing!
Russ
GSRS
GARDEN STATE RAILROADING SWITCHYARD
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A fantastic way to spread the news about your organization!
Register your model club, retail store or railroad
with Garden State Railroading Switchyard!
______________________________________________
http://users.snip.net/~rpolo/GSRS/rail.htm
______________________________________________
John Sheridan
Andy Harman wrote:
>
>
> And the truth of the matter is, I was born with an Athearn Hustler in
> my left hand, a Mantua Shifter in my right hand, a Partagas (Havana,
> they were legal then) 8-9-8 in my mouth, and my birth certificate
> stamped with a 15% discount on all train items at Walts Hobby Shop...
>
The vision of this just popped into my head.
I'm scared. Veryyyyyyyyyyy scared.............
--
John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals
http://www.microscale.com
Member of the Lumber Cartel (TINLC) Unit #631
Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! http://www.cauce.org
John Sheridan
Russ wrote:
>
>
> I agree with you fully. There hasn't been anything new on this scale in
> years (in the northeast)! Roadside America and the Choo Choo Barn, both
> in easter PA are also beautiful layouts which tickle the fancy of all
> who visit.
The South Shore Model RR Club in Hingham Ma. is in the process of
building a 150'x50' layout at their new clubsite.
And yes, I am a member.
William L. Brown Jr.
In article <6if4jp$d1t$1...@newsread1-mx.centuryinter.net>,
dm <mm...@nospam.com> wrote:
> After all the talk of the G & D I've been rereading my worn copy of
>Model Railroading w/ John Allen. One feature that I'd like more info on is
>the 'water meter'. With all the electronics today is there a simple way to
>add this feature to an "O" gauge layout?
A few years back, there was an article in MR re: combining the use of real
water and "artificial water" on an On3 layout. It was written by Lee Van-
something, who is Art Director at Kalmbach. It's on my list of "neat ideas
to try out RSN."
--+---+ \/ -bill
++---+ |[]]|_^_[] wlb...@netcom.com
_|____+-+___|____|_ Concord, CA
| o+o +-+ <>--<>-= \ C-250 #302 - "Amazing Grace"
Don Mitchell
John Sheridan wrote --
>The South Shore Model RR Club in Hingham Ma. is in the process of
>building a 150'x50' layout at their new clubsite.
>
>http://www.ssmrc.org
Interesting web page. Sure hope you guys elect to model a specific
prototype for the new SSMRC layout -- it opens up new vistas in the
hobby that can't be appreciated until you've done it. It's been
amazing how many skeptics have been converted once they've actually
operated Tehachapi in prototypic fashion.
Don
John Sheridan
Don Mitchell wrote:
>
>
> Interesting web page. Sure hope you guys elect to model a specific
> prototype for the new SSMRC layout -- it opens up new vistas in the
> hobby that can't be appreciated until you've done it. It's been
> amazing how many skeptics have been converted once they've actually
> operated Tehachapi in prototypic fashion.
>
Right now, we are in the planning stages of designing the new layout.
There are several battles going on between hand-laid track and flex
track. Other than that, It is going to be a huge project and we do
operate in a protypical fashion.
Don Mitchell
John Sheridan wrote --
>Right now, we are in the planning stages of designing the new layout.
>There are several battles going on between hand-laid track and flex
>track. Other than that, It is going to be a huge project and we do
>operate in a protypical fashion.
Poor terminology on my part. What was meant by prototypical
operation was that the trains moved over trackwork that was modeled
after a specific prototype. Ours is modeling Tehachapi about 2/3rds
of actual scale size. Yours might be modeling the New Haven, B&M,
B&A or combination thereof rather than a freelanced line. (The end
square footage of your new space is about the same as we have.) Once
there is fairly exact model of prototype trackage (& scenery), then
operation can be truly prototypic in another dimension.
Whatever the club decides, the photos on the web page of the current
layout indicate the new project will certainly be a place worth
visiting a few years hence.
Don
P.S. We opted for a combination of hand laid and flex track on
Tehachapi, with the exception that all turnouts are hand laid.
D
Don
John Sheridan
Don Mitchell wrote:
>
> John Sheridan wrote --
>
> Poor terminology on my part. What was meant by prototypical
> operation was that the trains moved over trackwork that was modeled
> after a specific prototype. Ours is modeling Tehachapi about 2/3rds
> of actual scale size. Yours might be modeling the New Haven, B&M,
> B&A or combination thereof rather than a freelanced line. (The end
> square footage of your new space is about the same as we have.) Once
> there is fairly exact model of prototype trackage (& scenery), then
> operation can be truly prototypic in another dimension.
>
I wanted to do a protypical layout of New England trackage. I was
overruled by those who wish to keep our existing fantasy layout
structure loosly based on the New Haven.
> Whatever the club decides, the photos on the web page of the current
> layout indicate the new project will certainly be a place worth
> visiting a few years hence.
>
Yes it will be a sight to see once it is completed. We should have the
first phase completed in about 4 years. The only thing we are salvaging
from the old layout is some of the yards, some structures, and most of
the turnouts.
> P.S. We opted for a combination of hand laid and flex track on
> Tehachapi, with the exception that all turnouts are hand laid.
>
We are probally going the same route with most of the turnouts being
either Shinohara or BK Enterprises turnouts, or hand-laid.
What do you use for controlling trains ?!?!?!?
Don Mitchell
John Sheridan wrote --
>I wanted to do a protypical layout of New England trackage. I was
>overruled by those who wish to keep our existing fantasy layout
>structure loosly based on the New Haven.
Ah, John, your heart is in the right place. Too bad about the others.
>What do you use for controlling trains ?!?!?!?
People. <g>
Couldn't resist. Tehachapi uses a conventional block system with
pushbutton (radio type) switches to select the throttle powering
each block. At the time we started (15+ years ago), none of the
command control systems could handle the locos, helpers, mu'ing,
etc., that we needed. DCC will do it now, but there's a rather
large expense involved in the conversion.
Don Mitchell
John Sheridan
Don Mitchell wrote:
>
> Couldn't resist. Tehachapi uses a conventional block system with
> pushbutton (radio type) switches to select the throttle powering
> each block. At the time we started (15+ years ago), none of the
> command control systems could handle the locos, helpers, mu'ing,
> etc., that we needed. DCC will do it now, but there's a rather
> large expense involved in the conversion.
>
We are planning on going to DCC for the simple fact that we will save at
least $50,000 in wireing costs alone. DCC for cab control and switches
is the way to go for simplifying your layout wiring.
W. S. Zuk
Russ wrote in message <354B4B87...@snip.net>...
>
>There hasn't been anything new on this scale in
>years (in the northeast)! Roadside America and the Choo Choo Barn, both
>in easter PA are also beautiful layouts which tickle the fancy of all
>who visit.
In what PA town is the Choo Choo Barn?
Lester D. Shubin
W. S. Zuk wrote:
Choo Choo Barn is in Strasburg, PA near near the railroad. Hope this
helps.
Lester