Gorre and Daphetid
Michael P Gabriel
I decided I would like to build the, "Gorre and Daphetid", on a 4 x 8
plan. Where can one get the track plan without having to invest a
fortune in an antique book or magazine? A photo copy would be fine
and I'd pay the postage.
I saw a perspective view of one and I suppose I could reconstruct it,
but I'd like to be as authentic as possible.
Thanks, all!
Mike
Picture Rocks, AZ
wanna...@cogeco.cant
You might get it from the files sections here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD/
--
Will
N Scale - Credit Valley Railway
www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm
"Michael P Gabriel" <axip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a20043.040426...@posting.google.com...
Geezer
Plans" by Linn Westcott. They note that they had softened the radii up to
15" from the even worse originals. The original small layout was
incorporated in the final G&D, and so more correct drawings show up as a
portion of the complete final G&D track plan which appear in Kalmbach's
"Model Railroading with John Allen" also by Linn Westcott. Contact me off
line (remove the nospam) if you can't find these books elsewhere. Gary Q
"Michael P Gabriel" <axip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a20043.040426...@posting.google.com...
Arizona Rock & Mineral Co.
Gazette twelve years ago. It scales out to be actually 7 foot X 3 1/2 feet
with on inside loop radius 14 inches. My Grand Children have it now.
--
Phil Anderson
Up hill slow, down hill fast, tonnage first, safety last.
"Michael P Gabriel" <axip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a20043.040426...@posting.google.com...
Bill McCutcheon
Are you just looking for a general schematic, such as what's presented
in "101 Plans?" If so, I could scan it and e-mail it to you.
-- Bill McC.
Corelane
See Jeff's Gorre & Daphetid Tribute Page
http://gorre_and_daphetid.home.att.net/
...Bill
Bill
Mike wrote:
I decided I would like to build the, "Gorre and Daphetid", on a 4 x 8
plan. Where can one get the track plan without having to invest a
fortune in an antique book or magazine?
I believe "101 Track Plans" by Linn Westcott has a variation of the G&D:
"Model Railroading with John Allen":
Bill
Bill's Railroad Empire
N Scale Model Railroad:
http://www.billsrailroad.net
Brief History of N Scale:
http://www.billsrailroad.net/history/n-scale
Resources: Links to over 700 helpful sites:
http://www.billsrailroad.net/bills-favorite-links
Bookstore: http://www.billsrailroad.net/bookstore.html
Michael P Gabriel
>>>>One chap had a photo of what appeared to be the magazine layout
plan. I traced it carefully off the monitor, upscaled it and I'm ready
to GO!
Thanks so much!!! Mike Picture Rocks, AZ
Gordon Reeder
news:a20043.040427...@posting.google.com:
Yikes! You did that the hard way.
If you did a right click on the picture you would have
popped up a menue. Choose "Save image as", or a simular
instruction (changes from browser to browser) and you
would have a copy of the picture on your local computer.
Alternatly (if the picture is part of the background or somthing)
Press [Alt][print screen]. Then open up paintbrush and
do an Edit-Paste. Cut out the part you realy want and
move it into the corner. Then resize the image to get rid
of everything else.
--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com
Where is George Bush leading this country
and what are we doing in this hand basket??
coustanis
Would you mind posting the link to where you found it?
I'd like to see it.
Frank Eva
This may be a bit off-topic, but does everyone realize the true
pronunciation? It's "Gory and Defeated!"
--
Frank Eva
http://www.digitalrailroader.org
Mark Newton
> This may be a bit off-topic, but does everyone realize the true
> pronunciation? It's "Gory and Defeated!"
No matter how you pronounce it, it's still not as good a layout as it's
made out to be.
Gregory Procter
Mark Newton wrote:
The superlatives were applied because it was a huge leap forward from the
normal standards of the day (c 1948)
Mark Newton
EXACTLY!!! It was a great layout in 1948, and yet people still rave
about it today!
Gregory Procter
Mark Newton wrote:
A lot of us still work to 1948 standards ;-)
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:4094DBCF...@optusnet.com.au...
The raves are not for the layout as an item, they are for what Mr. Allen
accomplished with the products that were available. He was an artist. I have
the 5 part G&D Remembered from RMC 1980-81. In there it even states that the
original layout was not not all that good, but that his last G&D layout was
truly awesome. There is a photo on page 71 of the Dec. 1980 RMC that shows
an overall view of part of the layout. The entire room was the layout. The
scenery went from ceiling to floor. The ceiling was painted to represent
sky. the floor was painted to compliment the scenery that met it. The
trackplan was on 4 or 5 levels at this point. This is the work of art that
everyone is impressed with.
Michael P Gabriel
> Frank Eva wrote:
>
> > This may be a bit off-topic, but does everyone realize the true
> > pronunciation? It's "Gory and Defeated!"
Yes we DO!!!
>
No matter how you pronounce it, it's still not as good a layout as it's
> made out to be.
>>>>>>>Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
Fisty Nickle
> No matter how you pronounce it, it's still not as good a layout as it's
> made out to be.
Maybe there are better layouts today. but we have much better stuff than was
around in the 40's 50's 60's and early 70's so think of it this way if he
was building this today he would be biger and better than the F&SM or any
other layout. this is just my Opinion and you know about those. as i say the
F&SM and a few others have no equal today.
Paul
Bob May
although it was one of the really well operating layouts about but rather
the quality of the scenery that really stood out. John Allen was a
photographer and had the photographic eye for what is important in
detailing. As a result, he built a layout in his basement that was
outstanding for photography and operation.
The original small tabletop layout was done in about '48 but the layout grew
all through the '50s and into the '60s and the equipment occasionally got
upgraded to match the era. As such, I'd more put the layout into the '60
timeframe for overall quality.
Note that other builders have taken the same specs and built layouts of nice
value but John's was the first to really take things out of the bland
scenery and into the spectactular - layouts where the scenery was part of
the whole layout rather than just a subordinate thing for the trains to pass
through.
--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works every time it is tried!
Arizona Rock & Mineral Co.
original Gorre & Daphetid that was only 3 1/2 by 7 feet. I have some
positive opinions about what was learned about that project and will state
them at that time.
--
Phil Anderson
Up hill slow, down hill fast, tonnage first, safety last.
"Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4094DBCF...@optusnet.com.au...
Trainman
Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your definition
it's not any good any more?
Don
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
moderator: WisMode...@yahoogroups.com
moderator: MRP...@yahoogroups.com
moderator: vint...@yahoogroups.com
co-moderator: SCE...@Yahoogroups.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
Brian Paul Ehni
"Trainman" <dom.de...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> Mark Newton <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4094DBCF...@optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> EXACTLY!!! It was a great layout in 1948, and yet people still rave
>> about it today!
>>
>
> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your definition
> it's not any good any more?
>
> Don
>
The Ninth is better (IMHO). 8^)
--
Brian Ehni
Terry Flynn
"Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4094CAE7...@optusnet.com.au...
Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To date you
have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and Daphetid. I am
still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have helped with.
--
Terry Flynn
For HO scale track standards go to
http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html
also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort
estimates
Mark Mathu
news:BCBB13BD.77DB%be...@comcast.net...
>> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your definition
>> it's not any good any more?
>>
> The Ninth is better (IMHO). 8^)
I believe it would be 80% better than the Fifth, no?
Jim Stewart
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message
news:ZZjlc.14420$u_4....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Besides who ever plead the ninth?
Jim Stewart
Gregory Procter
Jim Stewart wrote:
CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?
Greg.P.
Beowulf
> Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To date
you
> have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and Daphetid. I
am
> still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have helped with.
>
> --
> Terry Flynn
So what? he doesnt need to have equalled or passed this exemplary layout, I
cannot surpass in quality John Constable but this in no way belittles my own
attempts at water colour or the fact that I recognise his genius in what he
created, the same applies to any area of achievement, the G and D was for
US modelling a watershed layout so to speak just as John Aherns " Madder
Valley Railway" inspired generations of British modellers and A.R.Walkelys
original and FIRST(!) HO layout( "Railway in a Suitcase!") inspired everyone
who wanted to model smaller than o scale( this was1923!) ,There are some
superb and equally as important layouts for continental outline and
probably for Oz too! I doubt if the Pendon Museum's layout will ever be
excelled but hey! its too soon to say never, so stop picking unnecessary
holes, criticise by all means but atleast stay on this planet when you do
and keep your criticismswithin the realms of reality...and possibly
politeness?
Beowulf
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:40960AE6...@ihug.co.nz...
>
>
> CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?
>
Not a problem Greg, you can leave if you want.
No one is holding you prisoner.
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:MFglc.276$fe2...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Mark Newton <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4094DBCF...@optusnet.com.au...
> > Gregory Procter wrote:
> >
> > >>> This may be a bit off-topic, but does everyone realize the true
> > >>> pronunciation? It's "Gory and Defeated!"
> > >>
> > >> No matter how you pronounce it, it's still not as good a layout as
> > >> it's made out to be.
> > >
> > >
> > > The superlatives were applied because it was a huge leap forward from
> > > the normal standards of the day (c 1948)
> >
> > EXACTLY!!! It was a great layout in 1948, and yet people still rave
> > about it today!
> >
>
> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your definition
> it's not any good any more?
>
That's it Don, you know these kids have a short attention span.
Anything older than last month is outdated and now bad.
Daniel A. Mitchell
Much of the G&D was 'tongue in cheek' to be sure, but still it was very,
VERY nice, especially considering WHEN it was built. Most layouts at the
time had hardly any scenery, were basic flat rectangular tables, and
were far smaller.
John Allen popularized, if not invented, many of the concepts we now use
in model railroading, whether the whimsy is retained or not. The G&D was
both innovative for the whole hobby, and inspirational to many people.
It showed what COULD be done, whether one chose to emulate it or not.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Daniel A. Mitchell
Today there are LOTS of things we revere because of what they WERE,
rather than what they are. Antiques of almost any form fall in this
category. Few are really as good as modern items. And people still
strive to restore or emulate them with period craftsmanship, abhorring
the modern mass produced product no matter how good it is.
Steam locos are a fine example!
Dan Mitchell
==========
Pond.com
wrote:
>THAT's the WHOLE point!
>
>Today there are LOTS of things we revere because of what they WERE,
>rather than what they are. Antiques of almost any form fall in this
>category. Few are really as good as modern items. And people still
>strive to restore or emulate them with period craftsmanship, abhorring
>the modern mass produced product no matter how good it is.
>
>Steam locos are a fine example!
>
>Dan Mitchell
>==========
Dan, you and Mark are both correct in some ways.
Having been to several operating sessions on the G&D in the 60s and 70s I can see it
from both sides. The first time I saw it, I was by myself. I had ridden my
motorcycle from San Francisco down to Monterey for the weekend. My brother was in the
Naval Postgraduate School there getting his masters in PolSci and I was stationed at
Hunter's point.
John Allen was in the hobby shop when I walked in and we started talking. I told him
that I knew of a really great layout that was somewhere in the area called the Gory
and Defeated and I asked him if he knew of it and how to contact the owner.
It turns out that he did indeed know of it and he was able to put me in touch with
the owner right there in the store.
I felt like a pilgrim who had unexpectedly run in to Jesus at the well.
He took me to his home and we spent several hours that afternoon in the railroad
room. It was great. I came back many times after that to operate and met some very
interesting people and had a good time.
So then, I have been there/done that as the saying goes.
I believe that I can say that you are both correct in your summations. It was THE
avatar of the hobby in its time. Today,........well, today I doubt if it would pass
muster. If the G&D were still with us it would be the subject of the same kinds of
debates that George Sellios' F&SM is, and for the same reasons. The G&D was a
caricature, not a model; not a historically or geographically correct one anyway.
The cold truth is that it looked better in photos than it did in real life. Never
the less it was impressive in its day. It still is.
We have a great deal for which to thank John Allen. He propelled the state of the art
to new heights in record time. It is well that the Gorre & Daphetid merged into the
ashes of time, for now it may be forever venerated and idealized instead of compared
with hindsight to the much more advanced model railways of today.
Jim Stewart
Certainly, which would you prefer, gore or delaped?
James R Stewart
Daniel A. Mitchell
While it's sad that John Allen passed away, and the railroad was lost,
perhaps it all happened at the right time. He was at the height of his
popularity and respect. That's how most of the hobby will remember him.
As someone else said, it's good to know when a project is complete.
Of course, it's also not fair to compare the G&D of 40 years ago with
such railroads today. A lot has changed, and, had John lived, so likely
would a lot on the G&D. the G&D of Y2K, had it survived, would NOT have
been the same as the G&D of 1960.
The same thing happens with prototype railfanning. As a GN 'nut', I hear
lots of people bemoaning the loss of various parts of what remains of
the old GN. A station, a bridge, a line rerouting, cars and locos
scrapped, repaints, etc. They blame BN or BNSF. What they miss is that
most of the same things WOULD have happened if the GN was still with us.
It's just 'progress', for better or worse.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Pond.com
wrote:
>Can't much argue with that.
>
>While it's sad that John Allen passed away, and the railroad was lost,
>perhaps it all happened at the right time. He was at the height of his
>popularity and respect. That's how most of the hobby will remember him.
>As someone else said, it's good to know when a project is complete.
>
>Of course, it's also not fair to compare the G&D of 40 years ago with
>such railroads today. A lot has changed, and, had John lived, so likely
>would a lot on the G&D. the G&D of Y2K, had it survived, would NOT have
>been the same as the G&D of 1960.
>
>The same thing happens with prototype railfanning. As a GN 'nut', I hear
>lots of people bemoaning the loss of various parts of what remains of
>the old GN. A station, a bridge, a line rerouting, cars and locos
>scrapped, repaints, etc. They blame BN or BNSF. What they miss is that
>most of the same things WOULD have happened if the GN was still with us.
>It's just 'progress', for better or worse.
>
>Dan Mitchell
>==========
What would I give to be able to drive up and down the GM&O between St. Louis and
Mobile: to see modern, brand new, red and white geeps and SD assaulting Alto Pass;
to watch as a hundred fifty yellow reefers loaded with bananas roared through
Citronel or Buckatunna; to see two hundred woodracks being dragged out of the rich
pine plantations of Mississippi?
Oh, but it is not to be. There is no GM&O, there are no woodracks or paper mills to
consume their resinous cargo.
Even the tracks are gone.
When I wanted to go to work on the GM&O more than 40 years ago,
President Glen Brock told me not to do it.
"There's no future in the railroad" he said.
And now,
They are both gone.
Gregory Procter
Jim Stewart wrote:
Back around 1962-3 I was a young lad running Maerklin trains on snap
together tinplate track. A very dog-eared copy of a US magazine/book fell
into my hands. It included an article on the original Gorre and Daphetid.
It really was a turning point in my view of the possibilities of the hobby.
Regards,
Greg.P.
Mark Newton
Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
Yes. Do you? What's your point?
Mark Newton
> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your
> definition it's not any good any more?
Another irrelevant and misleading analogy. You're attempting to compare
chalk and cheese.
Or do you really believe that model railroading has not progressed since
1948?
Mark Newton
>
> Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To
> date you have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and
> Daphetid. I am still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have
> helped with.
If you have anything you have to say, do so via e-mail, or in person.
I'm not wasting anymore time trading slurs and insults with you on any
newsgroup. Likewise, if you want to see my layouts, come and visit me,
as I have suggested previously. The ball is in your court.
Mark Newton
>> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your
>> definition it's not any good any more?
>>
> That's it Don, you know these kids have a short attention span.
> Anything older than last month is outdated and now bad.
The analogy is meaningless. The only person making any claims about
Beethoven's music is Don. I have no opinions about his symphonies, pro
or con.
Mark Newton
>
> Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To
> date you have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and
> Daphetid. I am still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have
> helped with.
If you have anything to say, do so via e-mail, or in person.
I'm not wasting any more time trading slurs and insults with you on any
wanna...@cogeco.cant
Only as much as you believe music has advanced since 1807.
wanna...@cogeco.cant
Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us, which magazines
have written up your layout? Are there any pictures of your work? anywhere?
wanna...@cogeco.cant
> Michael P Gabriel wrote:
>
> Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
>
> Yes. Do you? What's your point?
>
That 99% of the model railroaders view John Allen's work as art. While you
view it as dated junk.
Brian Paul Ehni
Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
"Classical" music sure hasn't!
--
Brian Ehni
Mark Newton
> "Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4096D167...@optusnet.com.au...
>
>>Michael P Gabriel wrote:
>>
>>Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
>>
>>Yes. Do you? What's your point?
>
> That 99% of the model railroaders view John Allen's work as art.
LOL! Really? 99%? And what do you base that assertion on?
> While you view it as dated junk.
Your words, Will, not mine.
Mark Newton
>>
>>> Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your
>>> definition it's not any good any more?
>>
>> Another irrelevant and misleading analogy. You're attempting to
>> compare chalk and cheese.
>>
>> Or do you really believe that model railroading has not progressed
>> since 1948?
>
> Only as much as you believe music has advanced since 1807.
I have no beliefs regarding music's advancement since 1807. Why
not address my actual comments, instead of ascribing remarks to me that
I did not make?
Mark Newton
> Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us, which
> magazines have written up your layout? Are there any pictures of your
> work? anywhere?
I have an album full of them.
Brian Paul Ehni
Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Let's take a poll
Yes = for the G&D as a work of art
No = against the G&D as a work of art
I'll kick it off:
Hell, YES!
--
Brian Ehni
Beowulf
"Brian Paul Ehni" <be...@comcast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:BCBC5B6D.7A27%be...@comcast.net...
YES
Beowulf
Paul Newhouse
"wi...@CreditValley.Railway" <wanna...@cogeco.cant> writes:
> "Gregory Procter" <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:40960AE6...@ihug.co.nz...
>>
>>
>> CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?
WOOF!! Greg is a busy little beaver:
- self-appointed keeper of the planetary vocabulary
- self-appointed newsgroup moderator
- self-appointed air space cop
- self-appointed defender of New Zealand mutton
> Not a problem Greg, you can leave if you want.
> No one is holding you prisoner.
Abandon his post!? He has far too many bizarre positions to expound.
Paul
--
Working the Rockie Road of the G&PX
Paul Newhouse
Brian Paul Ehni <be...@comcast.net> writes:
> Let's take a poll
>
> Yes = for the G&D as a work of art
> No = against the G&D as a work of art
>
> I'll kick it off:
>
> Hell, YES!
I've only seen a few pictures of it but, it looks pretty good to me ...
what ever you call it.
Brian Paul Ehni
"Beowulf" <peter....@swipnet.se> wrote:
Three - Zip!
--
Brian Ehni
wanna...@cogeco.cant
--
Will
N Scale - Credit Valley Railway
www.muskokacomputes.com/CVR_Home.htm
"Brian Paul Ehni" <be...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BCBC5B6D.7A27%be...@comcast.net...
Jim McLaughlin
--
Jim McLaughlin
Please don't just hit the reply key.
Remove the obvious from the address to reply.
***************************************************************************
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:PEClc.25458$kh4.1347840@attbi_s52...
And then there is his deputy commander, Mark, with the awesome layout no one
has seen.
Fisty Nickle
where would we be today????
Paul
Fisty Nickle
> > Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us, which
> > magazines have written up your layout? Are there any pictures of your
> > work? anywhere?
Why does a Layout have to be in a Magazine to be good???????? i would hope
that any of us here who has ever built a layout would think of it as good.
no i hope they think of what they did as damn good.
Paul
Brian Paul Ehni
"Fisty Nickle" <u...@triad.rr.com> wrote:
Six - Zip
--
Brian Ehni
wanna...@cogeco.cant
So when are you going to post some and share your treasures with us?
Most modelers are proud of their acomplishments and would love to show the
world.
When I get something more than bare wood and 6' of cork roadbed done, I will
be posting pictures on both The Gauge and Railroad-Line Forums.
Mark Mathu
> Six - Zip
Yes.
Seven - zip.
CowGoesMoo
Make it Eight-zip
Gregory Procter
Brian Paul Ehni wrote:
YES!
Gregory Procter
Paul Newhouse wrote:
> In article <KOqlc.4387$_12....@read1.cgocable.net>,
> "wi...@CreditValley.Railway" <wanna...@cogeco.cant> writes:
> > "Gregory Procter" <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:40960AE6...@ihug.co.nz...
> >>
> >>
> >> CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?
>
> WOOF!! Greg is a busy little beaver:
Check out the cut and paste from Jim Stewart's posting - it's a joke.
<sheesh>
Terry Flynn
"Beowulf" <peter....@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:K_plc.42736$zm5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> Salvé
>
> > Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To date
> you
> > have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and Daphetid. I
> am
> > still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have helped with.
> >
> > --
> > Terry Flynn
>
> So what? he doesnt need to have equalled or passed this exemplary layout,
I
> cannot surpass in quality John Constable but this in no way belittles my
own
> attempts at water colour or the fact that I recognise his genius in what
he
> created, the same applies to any area of achievement, the G and D was
for
> US modelling a watershed layout so to speak just as John Aherns " Madder
> Valley Railway" inspired generations of British modellers and A.R.Walkelys
> original and FIRST(!) HO layout( "Railway in a Suitcase!") inspired
everyone
> who wanted to model smaller than o scale( this was1923!) ,There are some
> superb and equally as important layouts for continental outline and
> probably for Oz too! I doubt if the Pendon Museum's layout will ever be
> excelled but hey! its too soon to say never, so stop picking unnecessary
> holes, criticise by all means but atleast stay on this planet when you do
> and keep your criticismswithin the realms of reality...and possibly
> politeness?
> Beowulf
>
>
>
Mark Newton is the expert yet chooses not to display any of his work. The
reason is simple, he is full of talk, nothing more. He was the first to
start the insults, and is quick to criticise other peoples work. He doesn't
like my modelling standard, I will let you decide, my work is published, see
below. It's not a Gorre and Daphetid, but I never intended to be the same.
--
Terry Flynn
For HO scale track standards go to
http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html
also includes details of HO wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort
estimates
KTØT
"CowGoesMoo" <cowgo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040503233443...@mb-m02.aol.com...
: >Seven - zip.
:
: Make it Eight-zip
Yep! It was an inspiration!
Bob
Terry Flynn
"Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4096F0E8...@optusnet.com.au...
Then publish expert.
Terry Flynn
"Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4096D2BC...@optusnet.com.au...
> Trainman wrote:
>
> > Beethoven's Fifth symphony was a masterpiece in 1808. By your
> > definition it's not any good any more?
>
> Another irrelevant and misleading analogy. You're attempting to compare
> chalk and cheese.
>
> Or do you really believe that model railroading has not progressed since
> 1948?
>
>
>
The NMRA HO wheel and track standards have not improved since then. Neither
has their weight RP which is to heavy.
Terry Flynn
"CowGoesMoo" <cowgo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040503233443...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> >Seven - zip.
>
> Make it Eight-zip
No suprises Nine-zip.
JCunington
>it's not any good any more?
Apples & oranges. Music hasn't found any new scales or notes in the intervening
time. We're still working with the same old scale that ol' Ludwig did.
Model RRing on the other hand, has seen a huge change in 50 years. New
materials, new methods, etc.
Jay
Back in action once again
JCunington
I dunno. <hic> That last fifth was pretty good.
Beowulf
"Salvé>
> Mark Newton is the expert yet chooses not to display any of his work. The
> reason is simple, he is full of talk, nothing more. He was the first to
> start the insults, and is quick to criticise other peoples work. He
doesn't
> like my modelling standard, I will let you decide, my work is published,
see
> below. It's not a Gorre and Daphetid, but I never intended to be the same.
>
> --
> Terry Flynn
Look Terry I dont care what you say , I know you Aussies have different
ideas (Lambing flats) but that isnt N guage mate!
Beowulf
Roger T.
Did I ever like the G&D as a layout? "No".
--
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Dean Eubanks
Dean
Mark Newton
>>> Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us,
>>> which magazines have written up your layout? Are there any
>>> pictures of your work? anywhere?
>>
>> I have an album full of them.
> So when are you going to post some and share your treasures with us?
Probably never.
> Most modelers are proud of their acomplishments and would love to
> show the world.
Good for them. The people whom I model with are the ones I share my work
with.
> When I get something more than bare wood and 6' of cork roadbed done,
> I will be posting pictures on both The Gauge and Railroad-Line
> Forums.
Good for you. I am not interested in joining either, or posting photos
to them. I must have missed the rec.models.railroad FAQ that prohibits
posting messages unless I have a website, or have published photos or
articles.
Trainman
> wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
>
> > Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us, which
> > magazines have written up your layout? Are there any pictures of your
> > work? anywhere?
>
> I have an album full of them.
That and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.
How's about showing us?
Don
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
moderator: WisMode...@yahoogroups.com
moderator: MRP...@yahoogroups.com
moderator: vint...@yahoogroups.com
co-moderator: SCE...@Yahoogroups.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
Trainman
> wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
>
> >>> Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so tell us,
> >>> which magazines have written up your layout? Are there any
> >>> pictures of your work? anywhere?
> >>
> >> I have an album full of them.
>
> > So when are you going to post some and share your treasures with us?
>
> Probably never.
> > Most modelers are proud of their acomplishments and would love to
> > show the world.
>
> Good for them. The people whom I model with are the ones I share my work
> with.
>
> > When I get something more than bare wood and 6' of cork roadbed done,
> > I will be posting pictures on both The Gauge and Railroad-Line
> > Forums.
>
> Good for you. I am not interested in joining either, or posting photos
> to them. I must have missed the rec.models.railroad FAQ that prohibits
> posting messages unless I have a website, or have published photos or
> articles.
>
>
>
Come on. You claim you're such a great modeler, put up or shut up.
Trainman
> On 5/3/04 8:18 PM, in article 4096EF58...@optusnet.com.au, "Mark
> Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> > wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> Michael P Gabriel wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
> >>>
> >>> Yes. Do you? What's your point?
> >>
> >> That 99% of the model railroaders view John Allen's work as art.
> >
> > LOL! Really? 99%? And what do you base that assertion on?
> >
> >> While you view it as dated junk.
> >
> > Your words, Will, not mine.
> >
>
> Let's take a poll
>
> Yes = for the G&D as a work of art
> No = against the G&D as a work of art
>
> I'll kick it off:
>
> Hell, YES!
> Brian Ehni
>
Absolutely
Mike Tennent
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
wanna...@cogeco.cant
> Good for you. I am not interested in joining either, or posting photos
> to them. I must have missed the rec.models.railroad FAQ that prohibits
> posting messages unless I have a website, or have published photos or
> articles.
>
No, but you did miss the universally accepted standard that if you run down
someone elses work and claim that you can do better, you had best be
prepared to back up your statement with proof. I say to you flatly, prove to
us you are a good modeller or your opinions will hold no weight.
You are at the old "put up or shut up" stage. Prove what you say or do not
say anything.
Michael P Gabriel
> Terry Flynn wrote:
> >
> > Of course you know, after all Mark is the expert layout builder. To
> > date you have produced no layout that can be compared with Gorre and
> > Daphetid. I am still waiting to know what exhibition layouts you have
> > helped with.
>
> I'm not wasting any more time trading slurs and insults with you on any
> newsgroup. Likewise, if you want to see my layouts, come and visit me,
> as I have suggested previously. The ball is in your court.
>>>>Children, children, please stop fighting or you'll both go to bed
early without dinner. Oh, and SHUT UP!!!!
Daniel A. Mitchell
HEARD of John Allen.
That fraction is MUCH smaller among 'serious' model railroaders, maybe
more like 60%. for the younger bunch and 20% for the older. I meed
decent modelers often who don't know who he was.
Sadly, John Allen and his creations are mostly ancient history to the
majority of model railroaders today. That does not diminish his
contribution to the hobby, in it's time frame.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Mark Newton wrote:
>
> wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
>
> > "Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
Daniel A. Mitchell
The actual question is more like:
Did John Allen's G&D of 1960 compare favorably with today's better model railroads?
My answer to that is NO, but who cares. The G&D was pivotal in the
development of the hobby. The G&D was not 'mainstream' even in it's
time, and certainly not today. It included a LOT of whimsy, and was
indeed more of an art form than an accurate depiction of railroading. It
also pioneered a LOT of ideas and techniques we often take as near
gospel nowadays. It's great for what it WAS, within it's time frame, and
for it's contribution towards what we have today for a model railroading hobby.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Brian Paul Ehni wrote:
>
> On 5/3/04 8:18 PM, in article 4096EF58...@optusnet.com.au, "Mark
> Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> > wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
> >
> >> "Mark Newton" <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> >> news:4096D167...@optusnet.com.au...
> >>
> >>> Michael P Gabriel wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Do you understand the diff between opinion and fact?
> >>>
> >>> Yes. Do you? What's your point?
> >>
> >> That 99% of the model railroaders view John Allen's work as art.
> >
> > LOL! Really? 99%? And what do you base that assertion on?
> >
> >> While you view it as dated junk.
> >
> > Your words, Will, not mine.
> >
>
David Pennington
Model Railroading with John Allen
By Linn H. Wescott
144 pages
Published in 1982 by Kalmbach Books
The story of the fabulous HO scale Gorre & Daphetid Railroad.
This book is everything there is to know about one master written by
another.
A chance to get hold of the story of one of the best model railroads ever.
Full of colour photos of all of the various stages of the railroad as it
grew. There are two of these listed on Amazon.com at $299 (hardback
version). So what is this softback version worth? It is in good condition
with no obvious faults although the cover has curled a little with age.
You can see it at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3191648649
David
P.S. yes, it was up before for silly money.
"Michael P Gabriel" <axip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a20043.040426...@posting.google.com...
> Hello!
>
> I decided I would like to build the, "Gorre and Daphetid", on a 4 x 8
> plan. Where can one get the track plan without having to invest a
> fortune in an antique book or magazine? A photo copy would be fine
> and I'd pay the postage.
>
> I saw a perspective view of one and I suppose I could reconstruct it,
> but I'd like to be as authentic as possible.
>
> Thanks, all!
>
> Mike
> Picture Rocks, AZ
Mark Newton
>>
> No, but you did miss the universally accepted standard that if you
> run down someone elses work and claim that you can do better, you had
> best be prepared to back up your statement with proof. I say to you
> flatly, prove to us you are a good modeller or your opinions will
> hold no weight.
As if I give a toss what a novice in Canada thinks. And as if I'll
accede to your demands that I "prove" anything. LOL!!! I could send you
photos from anywhere or anybody, and you'd be none the wiser. They
wouldn't constitute "proof" of anything. Grow up.
> You are at the old "put up or shut up" stage. Prove what you say or
> do not say anything.
In that case, you'd better warm up the old killfile, matey.
Mark Newton
> Children, children, please stop fighting or you'll both go to bed
> early without dinner. Oh, and SHUT UP!!!!
Jawohl, Herr Gauleiter!!!
wanna...@cogeco.cant
>
> In that case, you'd better warm up the old killfile, matey.
>
You may be right Mark, since there is nothing of value in 90% of your posts,
except to criticize other peoples work, while providing no proof that you
know what is good or bad. Or can do 40% as good yourself.
You have in the past criticised Terry Flynn's work. I checked out his
website and other than the fact the scenery is a little spartan compared to
the area I will be modelling. I would not critisize him as the scenery may
be spot on for the area he is depicting.
I have found your layout severly lacking and very one dimensional. When you
get something more than thoughts and dreams, feel free to share with use
your artisty. I will leave it up to Terry or someone else to let me know if
and when you do create something. Because as of this moment you go into the
"Bozo-Bin" you are only the second one there, Mr. Rathburne was first.
Paul Newhouse
Mark Newton <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> writes:
> wi...@CreditValley.Railway wrote:
> >>
> > No, but you did miss the universally accepted standard that if you
> > run down someone elses work and claim that you can do better, you had
> > best be prepared to back up your statement with proof. I say to you
> > flatly, prove to us you are a good modeller or your opinions will
> > hold no weight.
>
> As if I give a toss what a novice in Canada thinks. And as if I'll
> accede to your demands that I "prove" anything. LOL!!! I could send you
> photos from anywhere or anybody, and you'd be none the wiser. They
> wouldn't constitute "proof" of anything. Grow up.
Ok, go ahead. I'm guessing somebody in the ng will recognize it and
call you on it but, give it a shot.
Paul
--
Working the Rockie Road of the G&PX
Mark Newton
>>
>> As if I give a toss what a novice in Canada thinks. And as if I'll
>> accede to your demands that I "prove" anything. LOL!!! I could send
>> you photos from anywhere or anybody, and you'd be none the wiser.
>> They wouldn't constitute "proof" of anything. Grow up.
>
> Ok, go ahead. I'm guessing somebody in the ng will recognize it and
> call you on it but, give it a shot.
Couldn't be arsed. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm not going to all the
trouble of posting photos or creating a website just to satisfy a couple
of wankers like Will and Flynn, the bed-wetting twins.
Paul Newhouse
Post to alt.binaries.pictures.rail no need for a wb site. We are all
just interested in looking at another layout.
Mark Newton
> Post to alt.binaries.pictures.rail no need for a wb site. We are all
> just interested in looking at another layout.
Then look at someone else's. The more you try to persuade me, the more
determined I am not to comply with your "request".
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:HUTlc.23198$TD4.3228640@attbi_s01...
> > Couldn't be arsed. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm not going to all the
> > trouble of posting photos or creating a website just to satisfy a couple
> > of wankers like Will and Flynn, the bed-wetting twins.
>
> Post to alt.binaries.pictures.rail no need for a wb site. We are all
> just interested in looking at another layout.
>
Paul, we just have to accept the fact that Mark has nothing he feels is
worth showing. Also the fact he has the need to debase himself to
name-calling is further proof that both Terry and I have hit a raw nerve
with Mark.
Gregory Procter
"wi...@CreditValley.Railway" wrote:
> "Gregory Procter" <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:40960AE6...@ihug.co.nz...
> >
> >
> > CAN WE GET BACK TO GORRE AND DAPHETID OR LEAVE THIS GROUP?
> >
>
> Not a problem Greg, you can leave if you want.
> No one is holding you prisoner.
>
<sigh>
Rick Jones
> Let's take a poll
>
> Yes = for the G&D as a work of art
> No = against the G&D as a work of art
>
> I'll kick it off:
>
> Hell, YES!
A great *big* thumbs up here.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad
http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/
If you are choking on an ice cube, don't panic. Simply pour a
cup of boiling water down your throat and presto! The blockage
will be almost instantly removed.
Brian Paul Ehni
Jones" <rtj...@extra.ev1.net> wrote:
> Brian Paul Ehni wrote:
>
>> Let's take a poll
>>
>> Yes = for the G&D as a work of art
>> No = against the G&D as a work of art
>>
>> I'll kick it off:
>>
>> Hell, YES!
>
> A great *big* thumbs up here.
So far, that makes it 16 - zip.
And the guy who said it wasn't (though he has responded to other posts
during this time) has yet to vote either way.
--
Brian Ehni
Jeff Sc.
buk buk buk bawwwk!
Don't bother to reply via email...I've been JoeJobbed.
Paul Newhouse
Jeff Sc. <not.cr...@nowhere.net> writes:
> On Wed, 05 May 2004 07:34:00 +1000, Mark Newton
> <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Paul Newhouse wrote:
>>
>> > Post to alt.binaries.pictures.rail no need for a wb site. We are all
>> > just interested in looking at another layout.
>>
>>Then look at someone else's. The more you try to persuade me, the more
>>determined I am not to comply with your "request".
>
> buk buk buk bawwwk!
Is that the sound of backpeddling at mach+ ???
wanna...@cogeco.cant
news:5mfg90p7b6lr5563q...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 05 May 2004 07:34:00 +1000, Mark Newton
> <mark_new...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Paul Newhouse wrote:
> >
> > > Post to alt.binaries.pictures.rail no need for a wb site. We are all
> > > just interested in looking at another layout.
> >
> >Then look at someone else's. The more you try to persuade me, the more
> >determined I am not to comply with your "request".
>
> buk buk buk bawwwk!
>
Now, Jeff, don't be hard on Mark. He is a victim of human nature.
You see, if you have studied human nature you will have found two universal
constants.
1. If someone creates something they are proud of, they wish to show
everyone their achievement.
2. If you have created something that you are not proud of, you do not want
anyone to see it, in fact, you will defend it, but not let anyone see it.
These are two universal constants, they do not change because of race or
nationality, they are 100% constant.
You see what has happened here, a young man has claimed something, but then
looked around and seen the quality of others work, and is now not so proud
of his accomplishments, but he will defend them. Just that he will not show
them as he would be humiliated if he did.
So I say, let's leave young Mark alone, give him time to improve on his
craft and maybe one day he will create something that he is truly proud of
and will want to show the world he can do it.
wanna...@cogeco.cant
Paul, as I told Jeff, we should leave young Mark aloone to practice and
maybe some day he will create something he is proud of and will want others
to see it. Until then, he will use his imagination to convince himself his
layout is better than John Allen's or maybe Lin Wescott's.
I bet it is not as good as Paul Templar's or Brian Fayle's either. Can't be
as all those fellows have shared their creation with others.
Woodard R. Springstube
news:_hDlc.526$zq4....@twister.southeast.rr.com:
>
>> > Mark, you are obviously a master layout builder, so
>> > tell us, which magazines have written up your layout?
>> > Are there any pictures of your work? anywhere?
>
>
> Why does a Layout have to be in a Magazine to be
> good???????? i would hope that any of us here who has ever
> built a layout would think of it as good. no i hope they
> think of what they did as damn good.
>
> Paul
>
>
A layout doesn't have to be in a magazine to be good, but
pictures of good layouts in the magazines can inspire the rest
of us to do better and raise the standards of the hobby. That
is precisely what John Armstrong's Gorre and Daphetid did in the
60's. And, don't forget Whit Towers' Alturas and Lone Pine.