Covered Hoppers - Question
Matt & Kathleen Brennan
involving covered hoppers.
1) Could I use the same train for varied deliveries?
** For example: If I originated a covered hopper, unit train in hidden
staging using a dozen or so of these cars, could I deliver the entire
train to a cement industry on one excursion, return the train to hidden
staging, and deliver the exact same train to an entirely different
industry on its next trip onto the layout?
2) Do these unit trains allow for varied road names, or must I have one
road name?
** For example: Could I assemble a unit train consisting of ATSF, MILW,
and BN cars?
3) Do these unit trains allow for varied car designs?
** For Example: Could I mix 50', 37', and other lengths?
Thank You!!!
Matt
Geezer
"Matt & Kathleen Brennan" <mc_br...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:401ce...@newspeer2.tds.net...
> Could some of you please describe some 'operations scenarios'
> involving covered hoppers.
> 3) Do these unit trains allow for varied car designs? For Example: Could I
mix 50', 37', and other lengths?
37' and 55' covered hoppers are not designed for the same loads, just like
22' ore hoppers and 60' wood chip hoppers don't carry the same loads and are
not mixed into the same "unit train". Very generally the shorter (typically
two bay) cars carry more dense materials like cement, medium length cars (3
bays, Airslides) tend to carry specialized materials like plastic pellets,
and the longer 55' cars carry low density agricultural products. Most of
the covered hopper unit trains I've seen carry grain, etc. and consist of
all 55' flat or round side cars. I cannot recall ever seeing a unit train
of mid or short length cars, and it's hard to imagine a cement plant big
enough to merit a whole train of raw material.
> 1) Could I use the same train for varied deliveries? For example: If I
originated a covered hopper, unit train in hidden staging using a dozen or
so of these cars, could I deliver the entire train to a cement industry on
one excursion, return the train to hidden
staging, and deliver the exact same train to an entirely different industry
on its next trip onto the layout?
You can do anything you want on your layout. Depending how realistic you
want too be, you may choose to constrain your train usage as in #3 above.
> 2) Do these unit trains allow for varied road names, or must I have one
> road name? For example: Could I assemble a unit train consisting of ATSF,
MILW, > and BN cars?
Modeling recent times, a mix of BN and ATSF cars would be totally
appropriate on a BNSF train. But in my experience, competing foreign road
cars (like UP in the BNSF train) would be less likely. More likely would be
private owner/grain cooperative and feeder short line cars. GQ
Matt & Kathleen Brennan
>>> ... you may choose to constrain your train usage as in #3 above.
Thanks. This helps a lot.
>>> ... competing foreign road cars (like UP in the BNSF train) would
be less likely.
That's good to know. I will avoid this type of mix.
Most Appreciated!
Art Marsh
In Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma and other great grain states, during the
60s-70s you would find grain hoppers from almost all of the North American
railroads mixed in. There are never enough hoppers available from a single
carrier during the harvest season. The mix would normally be 50%-75% home
carrier marked cars. The remainder would be from foreign carriers with the
closet interchanging carriers having the greater percentage and
corresponding lesser percentage from those farther away. That would be
ideal. But during Harvest, conditions are usually not ideal. Most of the
interchange carriers will be needing their cars for their own internal use
so the percentages could be skewed. Example,
I will model portions of the Ellsworth, KS to Cherryvale, KS branchline.
Interchanges would potentially be UP, ATSF, MP, and CRI&P.
For my layout (SLSF, Frisco), I would use mostly the following percentages.
SLSF - 60%
ATSF/CRI&P - 5%
UP/SSW/SP/WP/MP - 15%
ACL/SOU/NW - 15%
North Atlantic and Great lakes carriers - 5%
The basic reasoning is that not all US/Canada state/prov. harvesting is
begun and/or completed at the same time. To maximize usage (and revenue)
Atlantic states (and other distant) carriers may send a portion of their
fleet to supplement the local Harvest area carriers. Not to mention, the
local harvest carriers would also request additional cars due to projected
large harvest yields. I think that this last harvest (2003) the big carriers
goofed and did not have near enough cars needed. Also I seem to remember
that there were not enough cars available in all of North America for the
actual need.
Bob May
for other types of loads unless they are fully cleaned by hand. After a
cleaning, they can then be used for another load if the density of the load
is about the same.
Thus, you will see unit trains all of the same size. In addition, unit
trains of stuff like cement will usually be of the same road name although
the designs may be from different makers of cars, usually in older sets.
Trains like grain service will have a lot of foreign cars but they too will
be of the same size usually with the caveat of different makers.
--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works every time it is tried!
Jim Bernier
I think you may have typo'ed in you post....
The 3 Bay cars(4427/4450 cubes) usually handle grain. Those long 4
bay cars(5000/5500 cubes) are generally used for very low density
stuff(like plastic pellets). I remember watching the 'once a month'
plastic pellet car being unloaded at the AMPI milk plant - those pellets
were used to make the milk containers you see in the grocery store.
Airslide cars come in a 70t and a 100t size, and have 1 or 2 discharge
outlets - they have a perforated liner that air is blown into to 'fluff'
up commodities like flour or sugar, so it will 'flow' out without caking
up or sticking.
The shorter 2 bay cars(70t-100t) are used for 'dense' materials like
cement or roofing granules. Cement/concrete plants are pretty much a
local or regional industry. You really do not see 'unit trains' of
cement - usually 1- 3 cars might go to a cement plant. Her in
Rochester, MN; cement comes from Mason City(Leigh Portland??) or from
the State of South Dakota cement plant south of Rapid City - maybe a
150-500 line haul. You do see lots of 1500-2000 mile 'unit trains' of
grain going to Gulf/Lakehead/Pacific Northwest ports for shipment.
Another commodity we see in the midwest is potash from Canada - lots
of those round Canadian cars - 100t capacity with anywhere from 3-6
discharge bays.
Jim Bernier
SleuthRaptorman
> I will model portions of the Ellsworth, KS to Cherryvale, KS branchline.
> Interchanges would potentially be UP, ATSF, MP, and CRI&P.
> For my layout (SLSF, Frisco), I would use mostly the following percentages.
>
> SLSF - 60%
> ATSF/CRI&P - 5%
> UP/SSW/SP/WP/MP - 15%
> ACL/SOU/NW - 15%
> North Atlantic and Great lakes carriers - 5%
Hmmm, seems like your missing a set. GN/NP/Milwalkee/CNW. I was in
Wichita during that time period and I recall an influx of Northwestern
railroads cars in the early spring. They went to Texas and then
followed the winter wheat crop harvest north ending up on the home roads
in time for their own "harvest season".
Also I seem to recall a great number of CB&Q cars showing up on the Frisco.
Art Marsh
the Frisco there in Wichita myself. I have seen virtually every North
American line represented at one time or another on the Frisco. I had even
spotted a few Alaska RR boxcars a time or two. I also did not mention that
well up into the 1970s both "Grain loading only" boxcars and hoppers were
used.
Wichita had four major carriers during that time. Competition for spare cars
at harvest time was very fierce at times.
Art
"SleuthRaptorman" <rad...@walkersquawker.net> wrote in message
news:401D64F5...@walkersquawker.net...
SleuthRaptorman
> Could some of you please describe some 'operations scenarios'
> involving covered hoppers.
>
> 1) Could I use the same train for varied deliveries?
That would be the most common scenario for a covered hopper. They would
normally be in standard freight operations. During harvest the trains
would include more and more of that type car until they were the
dominant type.
> 2) Do these unit trains allow for varied road names, or must I have one
> road name?
I don't know of any unit trains made up of covered hoppers. In general,
a "unit train" is one that is never broken up during either loading or
unloading operations.
> 3) Do these unit trains allow for varied car designs?
>
> ** For Example: Could I mix 50', 37', and other lengths?
Want to see a neat Santa Fe train with a 36' hopper, there is footage on
the Santa Fe Odyssey Volume 1. Train consists of a Zebra striped GP7,
on 36' covered hopper, and one 1890's vintage combine (baggage & coach).
BTW - From the Super Chief discussions, I thought you were attempting to
model a bit earlier period? The short 35.6' cars were introduced in
1930s but I don't think the larger ones (centerflow), for grain, came
out until 1964 or so. Before then grain was carried in "grain loading"
box cars. I've never studied this transition exactly but I do know that
during the 1970 BN merger, the NP contributed many "grain loading" boxes
as well as the covered hoppers. By this time (1967) the Super Chief was
behind FP45 locomotives and combined into one train with the El Capitan.
me
news:401D3DBD...@nospam.hotmail.com...
> Geezer,
>
> I think you may have typo'ed in you post....
> The 3 Bay cars(4427/4450 cubes) usually handle grain. Those long 4
> bay cars(5000/5500 cubes) are generally used for very low density
> stuff(like plastic pellets). I remember watching the 'once a month'
> plastic pellet car being unloaded at the AMPI milk plant - those pellets
> were used to make the milk containers you see in the grocery store.
> Airslide cars come in a 70t and a 100t size, and have 1 or 2 discharge
> outlets - they have a perforated liner that air is blown into to 'fluff'
> up commodities like flour or sugar, so it will 'flow' out without caking
> up or sticking.
I was gonna reply with basically the same answer :) You'd use cars
like the Accurail, Atlas or Intermountain 3-bay ACF, Athearn PS-2,
Intermountain PS-2 4750, MDC FMC 3-bay, etc for grain.
> The shorter 2 bay cars(70t-100t) are used for 'dense' materials like
> cement or roofing granules. Cement/concrete plants are pretty much a
> local or regional industry. You really do not see 'unit trains' of
> cement - usually 1- 3 cars might go to a cement plant.
They also ship sand in these cars, to places like foundries that use sand
as part of their casting process. The local here used to ship as many
as 20 or more a day. The cars typically are like the Front Range, Detail
Associates, Ramax or Intermountain 2-bay ACF, but they used others
too.
Kennedy
> Hoppers are generally designed for a particular load and usually aren't
> used for other types of loads unless they are fully cleaned by hand.
> After a cleaning, they can then be used for another load if the density
> of the load is about the same.
> Thus, you will see unit trains all of the same size. In addition, unit
> trains of stuff like cement will usually be of the same road name
> although the designs may be from different makers of cars, usually in
> older sets. Trains like grain service will have a lot of foreign cars but
> they too will be of the same size usually with the caveat of different
> makers.
However, from the grain standpoint, you'd see the PS-2 and Trinity versions
mixed together on the same train. Which, would give you a bit of car type
variation...
Kennedy
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service New Rate! $9.95/Month 50GB
Matt & Kathleen Brennan
SleuthRaptorman wrote:
> >>> BTW - From the Super Chief discussions, I thought you were
> attempting to model a bit earlier period?
I am not as closely tied to a particular era even though the discussions
began to move in that direction. The input was fabulous, nonetheless -
as is this discussion. I always enjoy the wonderful, first hand accounts
that are contributed to these types of threads.
I have tried to incorporate overlapping scenarios that stretch
real-world situations, yet they're still plasuible. My plan is to model
very specific trains and hopefully create scenery that is generic enough
to allow for their variety [i.e. Super Chief, Fast Mail Express, a PFE
train, a Covered Hopper grain train, and a few other named trains].
>
NERD
> real-world situations, yet they're still plasuible. My plan is to model
> very specific trains and hopefully create scenery that is generic enough
> to allow for their variety [i.e. Super Chief, Fast Mail Express, a PFE
> train, a Covered Hopper grain train, and a few other named trains].
past all the concentrate (ore that's been ground and waste removed) has come
in in open hoppers, but about thirty years ago all lead concentrate and most
zinc concentrate began coming in in covered hoppers, while coal still
arrives in open hoppers. The reasons I have heard for covered hoppers were
to reduce environmental pollution and reduce wetness. These are lowsided
cars with removable fibreglass covers, not the usual tall covered hoppers.
Inside the plant, dirty beatup covered hoppers were used to move "white
dust" from the smelter to other plants. This dust is mostly lead oxide with
some zinc oxide. when wet it makes a sticky mess that coats the car. The
cars were very beat up as we used electric vibrators to help unload, but
usually these weren't enough, so we used a 12 pound sledge to bang on the
car sides.
Hope this give you a few new ideas.
John H.
Bob May
> older sets. Trains like grain service will have a lot of foreign cars but
> they too will be of the same size usually with the caveat of different
> makers.
--
Slingblade
Let me see if I can help. First of all, the roadname doesn't matter
so much. As you're likely to see any roadname's cars anywhere in the
country at any kind of industry. It's more important the TYPE of
cars. For instance. I don't know of ANY 50' Cement hoppers. Cement
simply weighs too much . A typical 37' Cement hopper weighs well
over 100 tons. Usually around 100-130, dependant on the design. A
50' Cement hopper would probably weight over 200 tons. Plus, most
cement industries have their pits spaced so they line up with the
standard Cement hopper designs. Some industries may only have one pit
per track, others may have two or more per track. Usually if they
have more than one pit per track, the subsequent pits are spaced so
they line up as close as possible, so the cars have to be moved very
little if any to unload two (or more) cars at a time. As to
commodities...as a rule, Covered hoppers are used for only one type of
commodity. Most especially are Cement hoppers and Grain hoppers.
Many are in fact stensiled "Cement loading only" or "Grain loading
only". If they weren't then they'd have to be thoroughly cleaned out
between loads. This would cost the companies a fortune. It's much
easier to keep hoppers assigned certain service. In fact, many open
top hoppers are used the same way. I've seen a number of woodchip
style hoppers stensiled for "aggregate loading only" (a component of
concrete, often delivered to cement plants).
You could however, see most any road name of a Cement car spotted up
at any cement plant, or any road name of grain car at any grainery, or
any road name car of plastic pellets at a plastic manufacturer or bulk
unloading facility, etc, etc, etc.
Slingblade
<rad...@walkersquawker.net> wrote:
>> 2) Do these unit trains allow for varied road names, or must I have one
>> road name?
>
>I don't know of any unit trains made up of covered hoppers. In general,
>a "unit train" is one that is never broken up during either loading or
>unloading operations.
Second to coal trains, unit trains with grain cars only are the
probably the most common type of unit trains. In many places unit
grain trains are the ONLY type of unit trains seen.
Your definition of "unit train" is almost correct. But not quite.
A unit train is a train that is delivered as a unit and pulled as a
unit, and generally makes a continous round trip journey between to
points. They can however be "broken up" during loading or unloading.
For instance. Many coal trains are delivered to power plants where
they have a multi-track storage yard. No track is long enough to hold
the entire train, so the train is broken up into two, three or more
sections and shoved off into the various tracks. One power plant that
I know of, has their own switcher (an MP15), which comes out as needed
and couples up to a track, pulls the cars down to a rotary dump, and
then one by one carries the cars through the rotary. Once emptied,
the switcher shoves the empties back to it's origin track, and
proceeds to the next track until all cars are unloaded. At some point
in the future, the railroad sends a crew down and gets the empties and
carries them back to where they came from for reloading. The same set
of hoppers may return in a few days to start the process over again,
or those cars could be loaded and sent to another power plant.
There ARE some plants with trestles or pits where you can unload a
train while moving very slowly, and never break up the train, or in
some cases, you might have to take half the train through on first
pass, then other half on the second.
In the case of grain mills, almost all of them have multitrack setups.
Except for very small grain mills which receive very few cars at a
time, they all have several tracks. Usually 4 or more tracks. I know
of two mills that have 8 tracks each. Unit trains of 50 or more cars
will be broken down and spotted filling up each track subsequently
until you run out of cars to spot, or the tracks are full...in which
case you'd have to hang some cars out on another track somewhere for
future spotting. I know of one mill on our route that only has one
track, but they only get a car or two every now and then. Probably
don't get over 50 cars total in a years time. Definately would never
get a unit train.
We have a pair of Fieldale mills at the same location...one on each
side of the track. They can take a 75 or 100 car train easily.
Usually request that half be spotted in each plant. There are 4 other
major unit train receivers on our line, Wayne Farms, Goldkist, Cargill
and the CSX interchange with ConAgra. They are supposed to begin
construction soon on a new mill on our route...don't know for sure
who's plant it will be. I hear possibly a MarJac mill. But I do know
they'll be set up for 75 car grain trains. They're supposed to build
a passing track for 75 cars between it and a Wayne Farms mill.
Jim Bernier
70's, BN was offering rates on minimum 26 car 'unit trains' of 100 ton grain
hoppers. The cars would be set out, and needed to be loaded by a set date,
then were taken to the destination. Later this was expanded and they offered
to take the 'unit train' to a yard where they were combined with other 'unit
trains' that were moving to the same consignee. The reason for all of this
was to give a lower 'rate' for the one time bulk shipment, and to induce
elevator companies to consolidate multiple small elevators into large ones
that could be serviced with the 100 ton grain hoppers.
Before that time, most grain in the Dakotas/Minnesota moved to the big GTA
elevator in Superior, WI for export shipment or to eastern customers. There
were several 'strikes', and refusal to load grain in Russian ships. The
traffic pattern changed then to 'Gulf' ports and later to Pacific Northwest
ports. Now there was even more, larger moves of grain - many times assembled
into single destination 'unit trains'.
Jim Bernier
SleuthRaptorman
> Grin! I sort of dumped them all into the Great Lakes group. I grew up with
> the Frisco there in Wichita myself. I have seen virtually every North
> American line represented at one time or another on the Frisco.
I loved driving up North Broadway past the Santa Fe round house at 21st
street. Believe it or not one time I drove by and said "drat just a
bunch of stupid F units". Like a fool I thought they would be there
forever. Never thought to take any pictures.
Then when they put in I35 right over the Rock Island and Mopac yards it
was amazing to see all the trains. The Frisco was sort of the small man
out. I remember joking about their northbound freight schedule - It was
a tri-weekly. It went up one week and tried to get back the next.
> Wichita had four major carriers during that time. Competition for spare cars
> at harvest time was very fierce at times.
I also went to high school up near Newton. The school was on the Rock
Island "main" out of Wichita. Newton was on the Santa Fe main. And in
a small town called Whitewater the Mopac crossed the Rock Island and
they both had stations there!
SleuthRaptorman
>
> I don't know of any unit trains made up of covered hoppers. In general,
> a "unit train" is one that is never broken up during either loading or
> unloading operations.
Well, I stand corrected. In one of the other threads someone mentioned
a CN grain unit train. It apparently has tubes between the cars for car
to car cargo transfer.
Jim McLaughlin
Columbia River at certain times of the year.
On the north shore of the Columbia, BN uses the old SP&S main to carry
wheat from Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon to the grain terminals at
Kalama, WA, between Vancouver and Longview. At the Kalama terminal (Cargill
???) it is transshipped into freighters.
On the south side of the Columbia, Universal Predator runs grain car
unit trains from Harriman / LaGrande / Pendleton / Heppner / Arlington and
further east in eastern Oregon to the terminals (Dreyfus???) along the
Willamette in Portland, just south of the confluence of the Willamette and
Columbia. Again, huge storage silos, then into freighters.
I may have flip flopped the Cargill / Dreyfus locations
--
Jim McLaughlin
Please don't just hit the reply key.
Remove the obvious from the address to reply.
***************************************************************************
"SleuthRaptorman" <rad...@walkersquawker.net> wrote in message
news:401F28BB...@walkersquawker.net...
Art Marsh
> I loved driving up North Broadway past the Santa Fe round house at 21st
> street. Believe it or not one time I drove by and said "drat just a
> bunch of stupid F units". Like a fool I thought they would be there
> forever. Never thought to take any pictures.
My brothers and I used to hike west and North on the Frisco to 29th. Along
the way We'd stop at the MoPac and Rock Island yards. After looking at the
South end of the Frisco yard we'd go over to Broadway and down to a diner at
about 33rd or 35th and watch the inbound and outbound traffic out of the
Santa Fe North yard, And yes I did get some pics of some of the F's and
GP9s. I even caught a Yellow War bonnet once. We'd then go back south to
North Junction. Finally back east to home. That sure was a different era
then.
>
> Then when they put in I35 right over the Rock Island and Mopac yards it
> was amazing to see all the trains. The Frisco was sort of the small man
> out. I remember joking about their northbound freight schedule - It was
> a tri-weekly. It went up one week and tried to get back the next.
That was the Burton Sub. I lived on the Wichita Sub. We had a twice daily
except Sundays. Every once in a while we'd get 3-4 movents in a day.
> I also went to high school up near Newton. The school was on the Rock
> Island "main" out of Wichita. Newton was on the Santa Fe main. And in
> a small town called Whitewater the Mopac crossed the Rock Island and
> they both had stations there!
I went to East my first year then West for the last two. I liked West High.
It was right at the diamond for the ATSF lead to the Orient yards and the
old Midland Valley. That was another line we hiked. When we got our
motorcycles we trail rode it South a ways. Teah, really liked West.
Take care,
Art
Dont Know My Name
> >
> > I don't know of any unit trains made up of covered hoppers. In general,
> > a "unit train" is one that is never broken up during either loading or
> > unloading operations.
"SleuthRaptorman" <rad...@walkersquawker.net> wrote
> Well, I stand corrected. In one of the other threads someone mentioned
> a CN grain unit train. It apparently has tubes between the cars for car
> to car cargo transfer.
>
Any chance that poster didn't know an air hose when he saw one?
That sounds so ridiculously implausible that it may be true. I recall years ago seeing
a picture of a firetruck with a can of gasoline strapped to it's running board.
Still .... I drove through Missouri once, you'd have to show me a picture of a unit
grain train with tubes between the cars before I'd believe it.
me
news:101ukcj...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > >
> > > I don't know of any unit trains made up of covered hoppers. In
general,
> > > a "unit train" is one that is never broken up during either loading or
> > > unloading operations.
>
> "SleuthRaptorman" <rad...@walkersquawker.net> wrote
>
> > Well, I stand corrected. In one of the other threads someone mentioned
> > a CN grain unit train. It apparently has tubes between the cars for car
> > to car cargo transfer.
>
> Any chance that poster didn't know an air hose when he saw one?
The only cars I can think of like this are the GATX tank train.
Slingblade
actually I believe that guy mentioned it was a unit TANK train.
Slingblade
Actually, if I am not mistaken, on the video that I mentioned before
that guy posted about the train with the hoses between the cars, I
believe there was some mention of them being interconnected and
unloaded from a single end of the cut. I am sure these cars are
permanently coupled, much like welded rail trains and certain other
rail car sets that are never intended to be broken up. If not then
disaster could ensue if the hose or piping were pulled apart.
Hzakas
>permanently coupled, much like welded rail trains and certain other
>rail car sets that are never intended to be broken up.
With respect to CWR trains, guess what? Regular couplers.
I know this because I once had to climb over and walk alongside such a train
(albeit empty - the cars were on a siding) to return to my train after a
McDonald's stop.
Dieter Zakas
Slingblade
Yes, but did they have bolts running through the pins so you could not
pull them? This is the way the welded rail flat cars and some other
cars are done. You can not seperate the cars by simply lifting the
cut lever like with regular cars. You MUST take a couple of wrenches
and remove two bolts that lock the pin in place to prevent
accidentally pulling the pin. The welded rail flat car trains have
regular couplers too...only they're bolted.
Hzakas
>pull them? This is the way the welded rail flat cars and some other
>cars are done. You can not seperate the cars by simply lifting the
>cut lever like with regular cars. You MUST take a couple of wrenches
>and remove two bolts that lock the pin in place to prevent
>accidentally pulling the pin. The welded rail flat car trains have
>regular couplers too...only they're bolted.
Nope, i.e., not that I could see.
However, I did note what was clearly a regulatory violation: the couplers on
the end car were painted the same color as the car body.
Dieter Zakas
Paul
>permanently coupled, much like welded rail trains and certain other
>rail car sets that are never intended to be broken up. If not then
>disaster could ensue if the hose or piping were pulled apart.
The GATX oilcans that are a regular fixture on the Espee here in SoCal aren't,
AFAICT, permanently coupled together. There have been break-in-twos in the
past, but because of valves between the car connections, there isn't too much
chance of a huge oil spill if cars in a "set" should accidentally uncouple.
Paul
Enjoying Rancid's "Indestructible"