Ballast question
Jeff Stanton
we have lots of track to ballast! Does anyone have any experience with how
much track can typically be ballasted with a pound of ballast? We are trying
to estimate how much to order.
Thanks
Jeff
--
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
Richard Feynman
Nobel Prize Physicist
Bob May
ner as far aas a pound of walnut ballast. Get a bit and see how it looks to
you and how far it goes. Calculate accordingly and remembeer that you can
be off by 100% eveen then. Besides, future work will also need more ballast
anyway.
--
Bob May
rmay at nethere.com
http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay
http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net
Ray Haddad
<jsta...@hughes.net> wrote:
>My club has recently constructed a fairly large portable HO layout, and now
>we have lots of track to ballast! Does anyone have any experience with how
>much track can typically be ballasted with a pound of ballast? We are trying
>to estimate how much to order.
Jeff,
The last time I had a bazillion miles of scale ballasting to do I
purchased two spinning blade type coffee grinders and a bag of turkey
grit. Grinding the grit to scale sized pieces in the grinder cup was a
2 second job and the stuff went down like silk through a jig we made
for the job. Buying scale ballast was way too expensive and at the
time, turkey grit was about $4.00 for a bag of about 25 pounds.
--
Ray
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>Depends upon what th materrial is. A ppund of rock ballast won't go anywhe
>ner as far aas a pound of walnut ballast. Get a bit and see how it looks to
>you and how far it goes. Calculate accordingly and remembeer that you can
>be off by 100% eveen then. Besides, future work will also need more ballast
>anyway.
Most ballast is overscale.
I use Arizona Rock company HO ballast in O scale. The pieces are the
right size and shape.
If you look at the prototype the pieces are perhaps 2-3 inches long by
an inch by an inch with with points and sharp edges.
If you use Woodland Scenics crushed walnut shells these start off
round and also swell when you add the diluted glue.
Greg.Procter
Last time I tried grinding cork pieces into ballast my wife grumbled
about the state of her kitchen whizz!
My local quarry has acres of "fines" which is totally useless to them.
I asked for a bucketful and they offered to deliver a truckload or two.
Suitable sieves can be quickly made out of loose fabric. Pantihose
stockings give the right sort of ballast size for old-time layouts.
Perhaps fly-screen wire mesh would do for HO modern?
The rest goes as filler for my garden railway.
Greg.P.
NZ
Bernhard Agthe
Jeff Stanton wrote:
> we have lots of track to ballast!
What I am considering for quite a while: is there any model railroad car
to dump ballast along the track while being pushed (driven) over it?
Neither do I mind modifying a car (or partially building one) nor do I
mind running it as "MOW car" when I'm done ballasting. But I would want
a tutorial for the modification/building as I'm currently quite busy and
out of creativity ;-)
Ciao...
Steve Caple
The chances of that working without derailing over stray grains of ballast
are pretty slim. There are various plastic tubes to slide along the rails,
but notning beats a small spoon or scoop and a small foam paintbrush.
--
Steve
David Nebenzahl
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:15:34 +0200, Bernhard Agthe wrote:
>
>> Jeff Stanton wrote:
>
>>> we have lots of track to ballast!
>>
>> What I am considering for quite a while: is there any model railroad car
>> to dump ballast along the track while being pushed (driven) over it?
>> Neither do I mind modifying a car (or partially building one) nor do I
>> mind running it as "MOW car" when I'm done ballasting. But I would want
>> a tutorial for the modification/building as I'm currently quite busy and
>> out of creativity ;-)
>
> The chances of that working without derailing over stray grains of ballast
> are pretty slim.
True, but that gets me to thinkin' (dangerous, I know): how about if a
guy were to build a ballasting car that discharged the ballast somehow
*behind* the car, so no interference with the wheels? Maybe with chutes
to spread the ballast evenly between and on either side of the rails. Or
is this just too ridiculous?
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
Steve Caple
Got it in one. I mean, you're going to have to go back and check for stray
grains, adjust the profile, and finally mist it and glue it down, so if
anything running a special car seems a waste of trucks (since the car would
probaly not look any more prototypcal than, say, a Lionel missile launcher
car, and thus useless otherwise). Better, in my mind, would be a ballast
dispenser with some effective flow control with a wide range of settings,
and perhaps even adjustable profiling wings. But it wouldn't be cheap, and
I'm not sure it could beat any number of other simple and ad hoc ways of
dispensing and spreading the ballast.
--
Steve
Rick Jones
> On 10/20/2009 8:33 AM Steve Caple spake thus:
>> ballast
>> are pretty slim.
>
> True, but that gets me to thinkin' (dangerous, I know): how about if a
> guy were to build a ballasting car that discharged the ballast somehow
> *behind* the car, so no interference with the wheels? Maybe with chutes
> to spread the ballast evenly between and on either side of the rails. Or
> is this just too ridiculous?
Some of the old Ulrich cast metal hopper cars had operating bottom
doors. It might take some trial and error to make something workable.
Then you have to find some, of course.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
David Nebenzahl
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> On 10/20/2009 8:33 AM Steve Caple spake thus:
>>
>>> The chances of that working without derailing over stray grains of
>>> ballast are pretty slim.
>>
>> True, but that gets me to thinkin' (dangerous, I know): how about if a
>> guy were to build a ballasting car that discharged the ballast somehow
>> *behind* the car, so no interference with the wheels? Maybe with chutes
>> to spread the ballast evenly between and on either side of the rails. Or
>> is this just too ridiculous?
>
> Some of the old Ulrich cast metal hopper cars had operating bottom
> doors. It might take some trial and error to make something workable.
> Then you have to find some, of course.
Yabbut, then you're back to the same problem of the car derailing when
its hind wheels run over ballast grains.
Puckdropper at dot
news:hbkk6n$m3a$1...@daniel-new.mch.sbs.de:
In case you're interested, LORAM (MOW company) has some photos and
videos of MOW equipment designed to maintain prototypical railroad
ballast.
http://loram.com/Services/Default.aspx?id=244
Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Steve Caple
> In case you're interested, LORAM (MOW company) has some photos and
> videos of MOW equipment designed to maintain prototypical railroad
> ballast.
>
> http://loram.com/Services/Default.aspx?id=244
Nice reference - thanks.
--
Steve
Bernhard Agthe
Puckdropper wrote:
(MOW ballasting train)
> In case you're interested, LORAM (MOW company) has some photos and
> videos of MOW equipment designed to maintain prototypical railroad
> ballast.
>
> http://loram.com/Services/Default.aspx?id=244
That's actually quite close to what I was thinking of - a set of two or
three cars, heavily modified for the purpose, with extra handrails and
pipes added and painted yellow. If it looks "technical" enough, you can
run this as MOW train and most people will accept it ;-)
Well, my idea was revolving about a tank car with a small hole in the
bottom and a hatch on top, that could be filled with distilled water or
alcohol to pre-mist the track (probably run it again before glueing down
the ballast). The second car would be a modified hopper that dumps
ballast on the track and beside the track, with some kind of "plow" to
push the ballast of the rail tops.
Well, I tried to "open" the bottom hatches of a hopper car, but that
does not work out because the small grains of ballast will actually bind
- and not flow freely. But the idea with a behind-the-car-dump might
work, because one could use the complete width of the hopper - you only
have to make sure it doesn't drop all at once ;-) Now I do need two
bogies, a few couplers and an old tank car ;-) Plus some material to
build the thing with ;-) Oh, but I don't have the time right now :-(
I'll keep considering it and I'll report when I finally get it to work ;-)
Ciao...
Greg.Procter
wrote:
I would tend to build a hopper within a gondola or box-car with a clip-on
roof. That way you could make the slot width and the slope variable so that
you could find a suitable discharge rate before finalizing it all.
It seems to me that a typical US hopper is intended to dump it's load
quickly.
I would think in terms of a vertically moving blade to open/close the slot,
but I wouldn't expect to get a perfect flow rate.
Definitely spread it dry and mist after!
Perhaps more useful in ballasting would be a wagon/car with brushes to move
the ballast so that the height and profile were reasonably constant.
That might need to be a finger powered vehicle so that it doesn't ride
over ballast accumulations.
Allowing the brain to wander further, what about a part way profiling board
mounted behind the ballast hopper and ahead of the trailing truck.
Perhaps it could be pivoted so that it controlled the opening of the
hopper.
Greg.P.
Bernhard Agthe
Greg.Procter wrote:
>> (MOW ballasting train)
> I would tend to build a hopper within a gondola or box-car with a clip-on
> roof. That way you could make the slot width and the slope variable so that
> you could find a suitable discharge rate before finalizing it all.
> It seems to me that a typical US hopper is intended to dump it's load
> quickly.
That does sound reasonable ;-)
> I would think in terms of a vertically moving blade to open/close the slot,
> but I wouldn't expect to get a perfect flow rate.
Well, with the end-unloading solution my concern is rather that it would
dump all in one place and have nothing left then... Probably some kind
of "unloading belt"? Driven by a thumb-wheel or such?
> Definitely spread it dry and mist after!
OK, thanks ;-)
> Perhaps more useful in ballasting would be a wagon/car with brushes to move
> the ballast so that the height and profile were reasonably constant.
On one railroad they used hoppers and an old tie just pushed by the
trailing truck to spread the ballast (off the rails, anyway). That's as
far as I remember...
> That might need to be a finger powered vehicle so that it doesn't ride
> over ballast accumulations.
Well, if you get the brushes rotating ;-) But I guess it would be rather
difficult to fit the drive and the brushes in an N-Scale wagon and still
have a bit of power in that drive ;-) But then you could combine that
wagon with the vacuuming wagon for track-cleaning later on ;-) That does
sound even better than automating the (one-time) ballasting ;-)
> Allowing the brain to wander further, what about a part way profiling board
> mounted behind the ballast hopper and ahead of the trailing truck.
> Perhaps it could be pivoted so that it controlled the opening of the
> hopper.
Hmm... another good one ;-) Now what about pneumatic or hydraulic
control of that ;-) But then again, this is probably a bit too flimsy in
N-Scale ;-)
Thanks for the input!
Greg.Procter
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Greg.Procter wrote:
>>> (MOW ballasting train)
>> I would tend to build a hopper within a gondola or box-car with a
>> clip-on
>> roof. That way you could make the slot width and the slope variable so
>> that
>> you could find a suitable discharge rate before finalizing it all.
>> It seems to me that a typical US hopper is intended to dump it's load
>> quickly.
>
> That does sound reasonable ;-)
No-one here has ever called me that before =8^)))
>
>> I would think in terms of a vertically moving blade to open/close the
>> slot,
>> but I wouldn't expect to get a perfect flow rate.
>
> Well, with the end-unloading solution my concern is rather that it would
> dump all in one place and have nothing left then... Probably some kind
> of "unloading belt"? Driven by a thumb-wheel or such?
I'd give up on the "end-unloading" - it's never going to look like
anything railway like.
"Unloading belt" - hmmm, a flat plate/surface with a vibrator (cell phone
vibrator motor) would work much the same and be achievable in N scale.
Imagine a very shallow angle hopper with a slot dropping on to the flat
plate. The ballast wouldn't move from the hopper without the vibration
and the plate would throw it off the edges. (add sides so it only goes
fore and aft)
>
>> Definitely spread it dry and mist after!
>
> OK, thanks ;-)
>
>> Perhaps more useful in ballasting would be a wagon/car with brushes to
>> move
>> the ballast so that the height and profile were reasonably constant.
>
> On one railroad they used hoppers and an old tie just pushed by the
> trailing truck to spread the ballast (off the rails, anyway). That's as
> far as I remember...
That's much the idea! too little ballast several times around would be much
better than too much ballast once! ;-)
>
>> That might need to be a finger powered vehicle so that it doesn't ride
>> over ballast accumulations.
>
> Well, if you get the brushes rotating ;-) But I guess it would be rather
> difficult to fit the drive and the brushes in an N-Scale wagon and still
> have a bit of power in that drive ;-) But then you could combine that
> wagon with the vacuuming wagon for track-cleaning later on ;-) That does
> sound even better than automating the (one-time) ballasting ;-)
>
Check out Dapol (UK) and (I think Kato Japan) They have an N gauge vacuum
cleaner/sweeper/rail polisher all in one wagon. The reviews are excellent.
>> Allowing the brain to wander further, what about a part way profiling
>> board
>> mounted behind the ballast hopper and ahead of the trailing truck.
>> Perhaps it could be pivoted so that it controlled the opening of the
>> hopper.
>
> Hmm... another good one ;-) Now what about pneumatic or hydraulic
> control of that ;-) But then again, this is probably a bit too flimsy in
> N-Scale ;-)
>
Hydraulic pump/reciever/valves/hoses/couplers ... could be fun!
To be honest I'd go slightly less high-tech and use screw and nut
adjusters.
I was imagining plasticard profiles glued on, like a snow plough or even
a ballast plough!
A decent chunk of lead inside the wagon would give it reasonable stability,
although it might require several locos to push it.
> Thanks for the input!
Greg.P.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Bob May
A conveyor belt to regulate the ballast would be a good idea as you can
control the amount of ballast by its height on the conveyor as well as its
width.
I'd be more trying to make a car that I could push along the track rather
than someeething that would be put in a train and pulled/pushed along..
Greg.Procter
> To help with the fun, make it compatible of ballasting turrnouts!
> A conveyor belt to regulate the ballast would be a good idea as you can
> control the amount of ballast by its height on the conveyor as well as
> its
> width.
> I'd be more trying to make a car that I could push along the track
> rather
> than someeething that would be put in a train and pulled/pushed along..
>
> --
> Bob May
Hi Bob,
if you were to use a ballast spreading car to ballast a turnout you'd
go over part of it twice! In particular the points and tiebar area.
After 35 years of HO ballasting I still avoid putting any ballast between
the sleepers where the tiebar is and between the points and stock rails.
(I often use Peco turnouts which have a sliding contact there)
One either builds a car with a set ballast slot and moves it at a rate
to suit, or a variable ballast slot to cope with variable car speed.
HO ballast (or N) generally has a minimum rate at which it will flow
smoothly, or from the other end of the telescope, a minimum slot size.
I seem to remember from Physics 101 that balls/marbles require a slot
3 times their diameter to flow smoothly without hanging up.
> times 2 is like two people trying to get through a doorway at once,
they will always get hung up.
> times 3 is like 3 people trying to get through a wider doorway at
once, they occassionally line up precisely and jamb for a short period.
Of course marbles are nice and round, ballast is intended to be all
corners.
Greg.P.
Bernhard Agthe
Greg.Procter wrote:
> if you were to use a ballast spreading car to ballast a turnout you'd
> go over part of it twice! In particular the points and tiebar area.
> After 35 years of HO ballasting I still avoid putting any ballast between
> the sleepers where the tiebar is and between the points and stock rails.
> (I often use Peco turnouts which have a sliding contact there)
Aw, come on, you're ruining all the fun ;-)
Honestly, the problem occured to me. That's why I suggested the
pneumatic or hydraulic control - you could just detect the turnout
automatically and shut off the ballast at the precise moment ;-) Of
course you'd need to detect station platforms, signal posts and tunnels
and adjust the rate of flow accordingly - should I use bar-codes for the
purpose? But how do I hide the bar-codes after ballasting?
;-)
> One either builds a car with a set ballast slot and moves it at a rate
> to suit, or a variable ballast slot to cope with variable car speed.
Especially for the turnouts, it would be better if there was a way to
switch off the ballast flow completely...
> HO ballast (or N) generally has a minimum rate at which it will flow
> smoothly, or from the other end of the telescope, a minimum slot size.
...
> Of course marbles are nice and round, ballast is intended to be all
> corners.
That's why I found the "end unloading" such a nice idea - basically you
drop the ballast "over the edge"...
But then you'd need a conveyor belt and I haven't figured out how to
drive it.
The sloped bottom with a mini-vibrator attached would probably work
quite well, so let's go with that design ;-) To achieve some sensible
loading capacity it would probably best to use the space between the
bogies for the loading area, but dump the ballast near the bogie to
handle curves. Now we'd have a design like this
I I
I IV
I---\ /------IB
___ \ /------ ___
o-o o-o
TRACKTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK
with o-o being a bogie and VB being the vibrating thingy. It does need
some external power supply, but since shutting off the power means no
ballast, that is possible (for the DCC guys, just put the decoder in
another wagon or use the loco decoder ;-) Don't forget to add a small
plow to the bogie to clear the track ;-)
OK, lets suppose this works, so the next wagon would be the "ballast
brusher" - in contrast to the track cleaning cars available I'd want the
brushes to rotate vertically - perpendicular to the tracks. Let's assume
I could put the motor and the brush in a wagon, with an air duct to
allow the attachment of a vacuuming car, I'd again need a separate power
source... Again easy for the DCC guys but since I run analog, I can't
use track power. But a maintenance train with two "Power cars" would
look cool, provided they have enough orange paint applied to them ;-)
Cool, keep thinking!
Greg.Procter
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Greg.Procter wrote:
>> if you were to use a ballast spreading car to ballast a turnout you'd
>> go over part of it twice! In particular the points and tiebar area.
>> After 35 years of HO ballasting I still avoid putting any ballast
>> between
>> the sleepers where the tiebar is and between the points and stock rails.
>> (I often use Peco turnouts which have a sliding contact there)
>
> Aw, come on, you're ruining all the fun ;-)
I learned the hard way - how much fun could I take????
>
> Honestly, the problem occured to me. That's why I suggested the
> pneumatic or hydraulic control - you could just detect the turnout
> automatically and shut off the ballast at the precise moment ;-) Of
> course you'd need to detect station platforms, signal posts and tunnels
> and adjust the rate of flow accordingly - should I use bar-codes for the
> purpose? But how do I hide the bar-codes after ballasting?
>
> ;-)
If the bar codes were on the baseboard between the sleepers/ties, the
process would take care of itself!
Hydraulics and/or pneumatics _could_ be made to work, but given that
internal working clearances and friction can't be scaled, I'd rather go
with mechanical linkages and electrics/electronics and servos.
>
>> One either builds a car with a set ballast slot and moves it at a rate
>> to suit, or a variable ballast slot to cope with variable car speed.
>
> Especially for the turnouts, it would be better if there was a way to
> switch off the ballast flow completely...
The point I was trying to make is that the flow can only be reduced to
three
marbles width before it becomes unreliable. Sure, you can block it, (>1
marble)
or control the rate lof flow (<3 marbles) but in between is not
controlable.
In all likelyhood you will want a rate of flow in between.
>
>> HO ballast (or N) generally has a minimum rate at which it will flow
>> smoothly, or from the other end of the telescope, a minimum slot size.
> ...
>> Of course marbles are nice and round, ballast is intended to be all
>> corners.
>
> That's why I found the "end unloading" such a nice idea - basically you
> drop the ballast "over the edge"...
I don't see an advantage - other than clearing for wheel flanges. A blade
and brush can do that behind the hopper.
>
> But then you'd need a conveyor belt and I haven't figured out how to
> drive it.
>
> The sloped bottom with a mini-vibrator attached would probably work
> quite well, so let's go with that design ;-) To achieve some sensible
> loading capacity it would probably best to use the space between the
> bogies for the loading area, but dump the ballast near the bogie to
> handle curves. Now we'd have a design like this
>
> I I
> I IV
> I---\ /------IB
> ___ \ /------ ___
> o-o o-o
> TRACKTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK
>
> with o-o being a bogie and VB being the vibrating thingy. It does need
> some external power supply, but since shutting off the power means no
> ballast, that is possible (for the DCC guys, just put the decoder in
> another wagon or use the loco decoder ;-) Don't forget to add a small
> plow to the bogie to clear the track ;-)
>
Those cell phone vibrator motors run at about 1.5 volts - simple to arrange
with a diode bridge rectifier, resistor/bulb etc.
> OK, lets suppose this works, so the next wagon would be the "ballast
> brusher" - in contrast to the track cleaning cars available I'd want the
> brushes to rotate vertically - perpendicular to the tracks. Let's assume
> I could put the motor and the brush in a wagon, with an air duct to
> allow the attachment of a vacuuming car, I'd again need a separate power
> source... Again easy for the DCC guys but since I run analog, I can't
> use track power. But a maintenance train with two "Power cars" would
> look cool, provided they have enough orange paint applied to them ;-)
>
> Cool, keep thinking!
Why not just a plasticard plough and a fixed brush? I'm assuming slow speed
operation here, rather than an ICE/TGV/Bullet train.
I rigged one of those cheapie computer vacuum cleaners into a wagon.
Right angled bend in place of the longish 30 degree neck, and a 90 degree
bend for the bag, which is normally straight out at right angles.
The result was a little better than not vacuuming :-)
MkII was/is to be the sucking stage mounted at one end of a long passenger
coach with the exhaust directed along the coach. A part high wall causes
the airflow spped to drop in the middle third of the coach, then a mesh
wall and the last third of the coach has the window glazing removed
to allow the air out at low velocity.
Still need to find a suitable coach with a clip-on roof, and time ...
Greg.P.