What type of foam is ok to use?

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Heather47960

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Jan 19, 2006, 11:00:21 AM1/19/06
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Hello. I have a question that I need a better answer for if any of you
can help me. I am building a O scale layout and was told to use either
beadboard or polyfoam board. Well my local lumber yard only carries
something called dense foam. Would this be ok to use in my layout as
well? I asked if it emits odors when cut with the hot wire and he
didnt know anything about all that. Could any of you help me out here
possibly? I just need to know if it is ok to use or comparable to the
beadboard, and if it smells real bad when you cut it witht he hot
wire?


Thanks

Heather

Joe Ellis

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Jan 19, 2006, 2:56:13 PM1/19/06
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In article <1137686421.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Heather47960" <kerse...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Whoever it was that told you to use beadboard... don't ask them for any
more advice! They're wrong!

Yes, you can use the "dense foam", assuming that it's a pink or blue
extruded foam board. It's ideal for model railroading applications. Easy
to cut, strong, dimensionally stable. I haven't noticed any odor with a
hot wire. Use a "Shurform" scraper to shape it, and "lightweight
spackling" to make fills and smooth sharp corners. Paint with acrylic
and /or latex paints.

Robert Heller

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Jan 19, 2006, 3:03:27 PM1/19/06
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"Heather47960" <kerse...@earthlink.net>,

You don't really want to use beadboard!

The dense foam aka insulation foam is the right stuff.

Yes, it gives off fumes when cut with hot wire tools. Do this with lots
of ventilation and you probably also want to use a mask as well. It is
better (although 'messy') to just cut the foam (with a bread knife or a
small hand saw) and shape it with a Sure-Form tool (looks like a block
plane, but with a cheese grater type blade). The cutting and Sure-Form
tool method creates lots of little bits -- you'll want to fire up the
shopvac after doing this for awhile.

">
">
"> Thanks
">
"> Heather
">
">

\/
Robert Heller ||InterNet: hel...@deepsoft.com
http://www.deepsoft.com/ ||FidoNet: 1:321/153
http://www.deepsoft.com/~heller /\



Steve Caple

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Jan 19, 2006, 8:00:56 PM1/19/06
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You don't want polystyrene beadboard - too crumbly; look for extruded
polystyrene. The "dense foam" might be that (EPS), or it might be
polyurethane. I'm nost sure if the rigid PU would emit any worse fumes
under hot wire cutting than the EPS, but I wouldn't do that to either
without really good ventilation and a mask that;s good against organic
vapors.

http://www.favonius.com/soaring/foams/foams.htm


--
Steve

The CB&Q Guy

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Jan 19, 2006, 11:58:10 PM1/19/06
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Heather,

Here's another reason you DON'T want to use the white 'beadboard':

http://www.scaletree.com/foamsafety.html

"Paul - The CB&Q Guy"
Modeling 1960's In HO.

pawlo...@gannon.edu

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Jan 20, 2006, 10:35:35 AM1/20/06
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Paul:

Great link there. Good to know somebody actually tested the
supposed hazards of extruded foam. Not too surprising the
bead board burned so quick - remember the Life Like foam
cooler warehouse fire?

Cutting styrene foam with a hot wire releases styrene fumes.

MSDS for styrene:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s6986.htm

Doesn't look too hazardous to me. The more serious effects
listed are for extreme and repeated (occupational) exposure
without proper precautions. For comparison, check the
MSDS for ethanol (grain alcohol, commonly sold in 50%
solution in clear glass bottles with Russian words on them.)

Open some windows; get fresh air if you get a headache,
avoid working in a surfboard factory when pregnant or
nursing, and don't worry too much!

Cordially yours:
Gerard P.

Bob Neville

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Jan 20, 2006, 12:48:58 PM1/20/06
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Thanks Heather for the Link it was very informative. You may have saved
my house :)

pawlo...@gannon.edu

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Jan 20, 2006, 1:34:31 PM1/20/06
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Heather:

Let me add that you should be sure the available foam IS polystyrene
foam.
'Styrofoam', 'Certi Foam', and 'Foamula R' are some brands.
Polyurethane
foam's vapors are more harmful, and may include isocyanates, which you
can apparently become sensitized to at rather low exposure levels.

MSDS for polyurethane foam:
http://www.foamex.com/technical/MSDSFlexiblePolyurethaneFoamRevised.pdf

California state information for isocyanates (surprisingly thorough):
http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ohb/HESIS/iso.htm

Note that, unfortunately, the important part is missing, which is the
expected
AMOUNT of isocyanates in the vapors from foam-cutting...oh well.

Cordially yours:
Gerard P.

the OTHER Mike

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Jan 20, 2006, 3:07:19 PM1/20/06
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Just remember, Styrofoam is a trademark of Dow Chemical and it's blue (

Amaco's is pink ) and is an extruded polystyrene. Pre Expanded
polystyrene is also known as beadboard because as you break it, it
breaks into foam beads that float around. The drink cups are NOT
Styrofoam, nor are the ice chests or coolers. Those are pre-expanded
polystyrene.


I*'ve seen some people say that the true styrofoam is not rigid enough
in 2" thicknesses. They might want to try Styrofoam HL-40 / HL-60 or HL

120 ( if I remember the numbers right) Normal Blue Styrofoam SM (
smooth material) or SE ( square edge ) has a nominal density wehere the

HL series are designed for insulation cold storage wearhouse floors and

are a much greater density.


Find a cold storange warehouse under construction and talk to the
contractor. They will be happy to give you a pick up load of scraps for

free. It's costs them to send it to the dump because of EPA. Buy the
foreman a case of beer and he'll send one of the guys to loas the truck

for you.

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 20, 2006, 4:13:34 PM1/20/06
to
The CB&Q Guy spake thus:

> Here's another reason you DON'T want to use the white 'beadboard':
>
> http://www.scaletree.com/foamsafety.html

I nominate that page for the Useful Content Award of the week.

What a concept: actually testing materials under actual conditions, and
posting the empirical results. And concisely and entertainingly, to boot.


--
The only reason corrupt Republicans rule the roost in Washington
is because the corrupt Democrats can't muster any viable opposition.

DanniFannyFan

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Jan 21, 2006, 12:20:55 AM1/21/06
to
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:03:27 +0100, Robert Heller
<hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:

>Yes, it gives off fumes when cut with hot wire tools. Do this with lots
>of ventilation and you probably also want to use a mask as well. It is
>better (although 'messy') to just cut the foam (with a bread knife or a
>small hand saw) and shape it with a Sure-Form tool (looks like a block
>plane, but with a cheese grater type blade). The cutting and Sure-Form
>tool method creates lots of little bits -- you'll want to fire up the
>shopvac after doing this for awhile.
>"> Thanks
>">
>"> Heather

An electric carving knife also works real well for shaping foam
terrain. Leaves a very smooth suface and very little mess.

Ken

Robert Heller

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Jan 21, 2006, 9:32:49 AM1/21/06
to
DanniFannyFan <kd1...@aol.com>,
In a message on Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:20:55 GMT, wrote :

D> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:03:27 +0100, Robert Heller
D> <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:
D>
D> >Yes, it gives off fumes when cut with hot wire tools. Do this with lots
D> >of ventilation and you probably also want to use a mask as well. It is
D> >better (although 'messy') to just cut the foam (with a bread knife or a
D> >small hand saw) and shape it with a Sure-Form tool (looks like a block
D> >plane, but with a cheese grater type blade). The cutting and Sure-Form
D> >tool method creates lots of little bits -- you'll want to fire up the
D> >shopvac after doing this for awhile.
D> >"> Thanks
D> >">
D> >"> Heather
D> An electric carving knife also works real well for shaping foam
D> terrain. Leaves a very smooth suface and very little mess.

The 'mess' comes with the Shure-Form tool, which is handy for carving
smooth, rounded contours, such as mountain sides or hills.

D>
D> Ken
D> > \/
D> >Robert Heller ||InterNet: hel...@deepsoft.com
D> >http://www.deepsoft.com/ ||FidoNet: 1:321/153
D> >http://www.deepsoft.com/~heller /\
D> >
D> >
D> >
D> >
D> >
D> >
D> >
D>
D>

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 21, 2006, 2:04:31 PM1/21/06
to
Robert Heller spake thus:

> DanniFannyFan <kd1...@aol.com>,
> In a message on Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:20:55 GMT, wrote :
>
> D> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:03:27 +0100, Robert Heller
> D> <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> D>
> D> >Yes, it gives off fumes when cut with hot wire tools. Do this with lots
> D> >of ventilation and you probably also want to use a mask as well. It is
> D> >better (although 'messy') to just cut the foam (with a bread knife or a
> D> >small hand saw) and shape it with a Sure-Form tool (looks like a block
> D> >plane, but with a cheese grater type blade). The cutting and Sure-Form
> D> >tool method creates lots of little bits -- you'll want to fire up the
> D> >shopvac after doing this for awhile.
> D> >"> Thanks
> D> >">
> D> >"> Heather
> D> An electric carving knife also works real well for shaping foam
> D> terrain. Leaves a very smooth suface and very little mess.
>
> The 'mess' comes with the Shure-Form tool, which is handy for carving
> smooth, rounded contours, such as mountain sides or hills.

One tiny tiny nit: the tool is called a "Surform"
(http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=CATEGORY&CATEGORY=SURFORM+TOOLS+AND+BLADES),
not a "Shure-Form" or "SureForm". For some reason, almost everyone seems
to misspell it.

Wolf Kirchmeir

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Jan 21, 2006, 5:09:53 PM1/21/06
to
David Nebenzahl wrote:
[...]

>
>
> One tiny tiny nit: the tool is called a "Surform"
> (http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=CATEGORY&CATEGORY=SURFORM+TOOLS+AND+BLADES),
> not a "Shure-Form" or "SureForm". For some reason, almost everyone seems
> to misspell it.

Maybe people pronounce it "sure-form". I say "sir-form", because I think
the mfr based the name on SURface FORmer.

But it is a little nit. (Are there any other kind?)

Steve Caple

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Jan 21, 2006, 9:29:03 PM1/21/06
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:04:31 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

> One tiny tiny nit: the tool is called a "Surform", not a "Shure-Form" or


> "SureForm". For some reason, almost everyone seems to misspell it.

Hey, it's the nucular age! Look at the folks who don't know the difference
between lose and loose!

--
Steve

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 21, 2006, 11:10:36 PM1/21/06
to
Steve Caple spake thus:

Or their, there or they're. Or your and you're. Or whose and who's. Or
buy and by. Or rein and reign (and maybe even rain!)

Sheesh, I'm even seeing these kinds of fuckups in the
newspaper--regularly. Nation of idiots.

Ken Day

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Jan 22, 2006, 4:03:30 AM1/22/06
to
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 20:10:36 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>Steve Caple spake thus:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:04:31 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> One tiny tiny nit: the tool is called a "Surform", not a
>>> "Shure-Form" or "SureForm". For some reason, almost everyone seems
>>> to misspell it.
>>
>> Hey, it's the nucular age! Look at the folks who don't know the difference
>> between lose and loose!
>
>Or their, there or they're. Or your and you're. Or whose and who's. Or
>buy and by. Or rein and reign (and maybe even rain!)
>
>Sheesh, I'm even seeing these kinds of fuckups in the
>newspaper--regularly. Nation of idiots.

Or rather instead of whether , hear or here , sell or sale. It really
earitaits me. I can take misspelling okay , kaus aoccdrnig to a
rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll
raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos
not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Ken

Larry Blanchard

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Jan 22, 2006, 1:12:16 PM1/22/06
to
David Nebenzahl wrote:

> Sheesh, I'm even seeing these kinds of fuckups in the
> newspaper--regularly. Nation of idiots.

Same here. But ours goes even further. It reprints stuff when it runs
out of filler. Once even in two different sections on the same day.
And just last week they reprinted 3 letters to the editor that were
originally printed two days before.

As someone whose father once owned a small town weekly paper, and who
grew up in a town with a great newspaper (Louisville Courier-Journal),
it really pisses me off.

But I'm afraid most newspapers are dying off and being replaced by sound
bites on TV.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Wolf Kirchmeir

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Jan 22, 2006, 6:11:49 PM1/22/06
to
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> Steve Caple spake thus:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:04:31 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> One tiny tiny nit: the tool is called a "Surform", not a
>>> "Shure-Form" or "SureForm". For some reason, almost everyone seems
>>> to misspell it.
>>
>>
>> Hey, it's the nucular age! Look at the folks who don't know the
>> difference
>> between lose and loose!
>
>
> Or their, there or they're. Or your and you're. Or whose and who's. Or
> buy and by. Or rein and reign (and maybe even rain!)
>
> Sheesh, I'm even seeing these kinds of fuckups in the
> newspaper--regularly. Nation of idiots.
>
>


Actually, the list of the 10 most often misspelled words has hardly
change in over 100 years. They're all homophones (same sound, different
spelling, as opposed to homographs, same spelling, different sounds).

Three of them are in your list. :-)

Keith

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Jan 23, 2006, 3:06:31 AM1/23/06
to
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:11:49 -0500, Wolf Kirchmeir
<wolf...@sympatico.ca> wrote:


>
>Actually, the list of the 10 most often misspelled words has hardly
>change in over 100 years. They're all homophones (same sound, different
>spelling, as opposed to homographs, same spelling, different sounds).
>
>Three of them are in your list. :-)

Sure, the 10 most often may well remain the same but the frequency of
the misspelling may still be greatly increased. The frequent usage of
'apostrophy s' to make plurals seems to be relatively new.
Keith

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 23, 2006, 3:04:03 PM1/23/06
to
Keith spake thus:

Ah, yes, the famous "greengrocer's apostrophe"[1]. Linguistically, this
is a phenomonon known as "overcompensation", where folks who are
uncertain about where to use apostrophes just put them in everywhere
there's an "s" at the end of a word.

Simple rule here: don't use apostrophes to make plurals.

Oh, and another thing: overcapitalization. People capitalize words as if
they were writing German (where every noun is capitalized).

All this is part of what I call "AOL-speak".


[1] see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greengrocer%27s_apostrophe#Greengrocers.27_apostrophe

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 23, 2006, 3:33:02 PM1/23/06
to
David Nebenzahl spake thus:

> Ah, yes, the famous "greengrocer's apostrophe"[1]. Linguistically, this
> is a phenomonon known as "overcompensation", where folks who are
> uncertain about where to use apostrophes just put them in everywhere
> there's an "s" at the end of a word.

Actually, it's called hypercorrection (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection). Explains a lot of other
common grammatical errors, like "I bought it for you and I".

Jay Cunnington

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Jan 25, 2006, 12:28:16 AM1/25/06
to
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> Or their, there or they're. Or your and you're. Or whose and who's. Or
> buy and by. Or rein and reign (and maybe even rain!)
>
> Sheesh, I'm even seeing these kinds of fuckups in the
> newspaper--regularly. Nation of idiots.

I blame it on the spell-check mentality. Newsflash: It doesn't replace
proofreading.

And I've heard that looser-boys like lose women.

Jay Cunnington

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Jan 25, 2006, 12:30:18 AM1/25/06
to
Keith wrote:

> Sure, the 10 most often may well remain the same but the frequency of
> the misspelling may still be greatly increased. The frequent usage of
> 'apostrophy s' to make plurals seems to be relatively new.
> Keith

I guess a lot of kids were absent that day in first grade.

Wolf Kirchmeir

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Jan 25, 2006, 9:53:51 AM1/25/06
to


The belief that you can teach a concept once and it will "take" with
everybody in the class is wrong. It takes repeated teaching/learning to
"fix" a concept, especially one as confused and messy as the Use Of The
Apostrophe In English.

The apostrophe is an ambiguous sign. First, it signals the omission of
one or more letters, which makes it a spelling sign. Second, it signals
case and number, but the sound of singular and plural possessives is
almost always the same, and posessives of course sound like plurals.

Third, the apostrophe is an inconsistent sign. There is no possessive
apostrophe for pronouns, which contradicts the use for nouns and names.

Finally, there is the problem of phrasal nouns (such as mother-in-law),
which more and more people are treating as compound nouns (ie as
motherinlaw). How you apprehend such nouns determines where you put the
apostrophe (and where you put the plural 's', too.)

A footnote: let's ignore tradenames and trademarks, which ignore all rules.

With such a farrago of ambguity and inconsistency, the amazing thing is
that most people do use the apostrophe correctly most of the time, and a
sizeable minority use it correctly all the time. Unfortunately, that
rarely includes sign writers and menu composers. :-)

HTH, and that's the last of the OT nit-picking in this thread, I hope. :-)

Peter W.

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Jan 25, 2006, 12:37:43 PM1/25/06
to
Tell me about it!
I had to learn this wonderful language at an age of sixteen! Many
years later, and I'm still learning....

But Polish (my primary language) is no picnic either. :-)

I'm not even sure why I'm posting in such an OT thread.

Peteski

Steve Caple

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Jan 25, 2006, 12:54:42 PM1/25/06
to
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:53:51 -0500, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:

> A footnote: let's ignore tradenames and trademarks, which ignore all rules.

Or, even worse, pop and rap (collectively known as CRAP) groups that use
diacritical marks because somebody must think they look cool - e.g.
[minus the marks] Ton Loc.

--
Steve

Steve Caple

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Jan 25, 2006, 12:55:25 PM1/25/06
to
On 25 Jan 2006 09:37:43 -0800, Peter W. wrote:

> I'm not even sure why I'm posting in such an OT thread.

Thread Drift R Us

Michael Brown

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Jan 25, 2006, 4:18:11 PM1/25/06
to
Dew knot trussed yore spill chequer too fined awl thee missed aches.

David Nebenzahl

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Jan 25, 2006, 8:14:55 PM1/25/06
to
Michael Brown spake thus:

> Dew knot trussed yore spill chequer too fined awl thee missed aches.

You must have read that story, "Ladle Rat Rotten Hut".

>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>> I blame it on the spell-check mentality. Newsflash: It doesn't
>> replace proofreading.

No, I did not write that. Attribution got screwed up somewhere up above.

Jan (Bouli) Van Gerwen

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Jan 26, 2006, 6:42:56 AM1/26/06
to

"Peter W." <pet...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1138210663.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Tell me about it!
> I had to learn this wonderful language at an age of sixteen! Many
> years later, and I'm still learning....
>
> But Polish (my primary language) is no picnic either. :-)
>
Fortunately people from the US speak a language that everyone speaks (
except maybe the French ), my 1st language is only spoken in a few countries
so we have to learn 3-5 languages starting with English in I think 4th
grade, followed by German and French in High School. Then to make it all a
bit more complicaited evry 5-10 years they bring out a Little Green Book
wich has all the new spelling methods and rules in it. For example character
in Dutch used to be caracter , now its karakter because they think its
better to have a letter K everywhere where its pronounced that way, this
would be a good thing were it not for of course many excemptions. But thats
enough OT for me .

Grtz Jan

Jay Cunnington

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Jan 28, 2006, 12:47:02 AM1/28/06
to
Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
> ...With such a farrago of ambguity and inconsistency, the amazing thing is > that most people do use the apostrophe correctly most of the time, and a
> sizeable minority use it correctly all the time. Unfortunately, that
> rarely includes sign writers and menu composers. :-)

Their mistakes are certainly the most obvious ones...

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