Lionel vs. American Flyer: a debate
Scott R. Griggs
Without initiating a personal flame war, would anyone care to
debate the relative merits of American Flyer and Lionel? We
have the perfect forum here for a lively debate on the age-old
question:
Which is better--Lionel or American Flyer?
I'll throw my hat in the ring by asserting that AF is better
because it uses two rail track.
Are there any Lionel fans who will defend their brand?
Christopher D Coleman
rail suffers from the same problem as HO and smaller scales: your track
can't loop back on itself without shorting or some special bridging device.
Also two ground rails makes signalling off the extra rail much easier. Of
course two rail is more realistic, but three works better. Besides if you
want realism use super-O or GarGraves track.
Anyway Lionel sold a lot more trains than Flyer. That says something, doesn't
it? He He.
Really any Lionel man can admit that both companies made really goood trains.
Why else are so many still running. Even the Marx are still running. Why do
I doubt that todays trains will run that well 50 years from now?
______________________________
|\ \ Chris
|*\_____________________________\ cole...@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu
|**|===LIONEL ELECTRIC TRAINS===| The Ohio State University
|\*|**+======================+**| Columbus, Ohio
| \|**| B&O +--+Timesaver|**|
| |--| RR | | |--|
\ | |-===-----+==+-----===-| |
\ | +-~~~--------------~~~-+ |
\|____________________________|
Ardie Mack
>From: srgr...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Scott R. Griggs)
>Subject: Lionel vs. American Flyer: a debate
>Date: 15 Jul 1994 01:49:09 GMT
Hey, I'm a Flyer freak and I'LL defend Lionel! The only shortcomings with
Lionel are the inconsistancy of scale (although Gilbert wasn't perfect) and
the appearance of 3-rails on the track. NOW, if you go to shows, look in ads,
etc, you'll find that most Lionel items cost a fraction of what the Gilbert
items cost due to Lionel out-producing Gilbert by about 10:1. Now, about that
track - if you wanted to buy some new 10" sectional track, would you rather
pay $.80 per section or $3.50 per section? Even old track in new condition
has Lionel at .25 - .50 vs $1 - $2 for Gilbert. Three rail track makes
operation a dream. You can make reverse loops without needing a relay. You
don't need a mechanical or electronic track sensor for accessories, either.
Just insulate one outside rail and feed current to the oposite rail. Hook the
accessory to the insulated section. When the train goes across this section,
you get a bit of current to the insulated rail to trip the accessory.
Basically, Gilbert's advantages over Lionel is the more consistant scale and
the smaller size. They also produced some great accessories, many of which
found their way onto Lionel layouts, and at least 2 of which have been
produced FOR O-gauge Lionel recently.
Fredric W. Dabney
etc...
: Really any Lionel man can admit that both companies made really goood trains.
: I doubt that todays trains will run that well 50 years from now?
Possibly. For what it might be worth, I have a couple of hobbytown ho
chassis that I got (one of them used) in 1954 that still run without
problems. Still original parts except for driver sets I replaced a few
years later to get rid of the insulated wheels which were nylon and wern't
quite the same diameter as the brass ones and had flanges you could shave
with. And I still have them in the parts drawers. Well designed stuff
lasts and lasts, sometimes well past the time you wish it would curl up
and die so you could replace it!
Fred Dabney/ KRWG Radio/ New Mexico State University (fda...@nmsu.edu)
"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by
stupidity" (unknown)
Scott R. Griggs
>> Which is better--Lionel or American Flyer?
>> I'll throw my hat in the ring by asserting that AF is better
>> because it uses two rail track.
>>
>> Are there any Lionel fans who will defend their brand?
>Hey, I'm a Flyer freak and I'LL defend Lionel! The only shortcomings with
>Lionel are the inconsistancy of scale (although Gilbert wasn't perfect) and
>the appearance of 3-rails on the track. NOW, if you go to shows, look in ads,
>etc, you'll find that most Lionel items cost a fraction of what the Gilbert
>items cost due to Lionel out-producing Gilbert by about 10:1.
Huh? Compare the prices of say AF remote switches against the price
of good Lionel switches (used). You can pick up the Flyer switches for
about half what O72 Lionels cost (~$50 vs $100). Look at typical dealer
prices for steamers--An average postwar O gauge steamer goes for at least
$100 more than a comparable American Flyer steam locomotive. Heck, look
at transformers, a 275 watt ZW goes for ~$300 while 300-350 watt AF
transformers can be had for $100-$150. (Incidentally, for their output,
I think ZWs are vastly overrated by operators). I could go on and on..
Sure, you could compare the cost of O27 junk with (nonpikemaster) AF
and draw the conclusion that Lionel is cheaper, but please compare
stuff of comparable quality and at least semi-realism!
>track - if you wanted to buy some new 10" sectional track, would you rather
>pay $.80 per section or $3.50 per section? Even old track in new condition
>has Lionel at .25 - .50 vs $1 - $2 for Gilbert. Three rail track makes
>operation a dream. You can make reverse loops without needing a relay. You
>don't need a mechanical or electronic track sensor for accessories, either.
>Just insulate one outside rail and feed current to the oposite rail. Hook the
>accessory to the insulated section. When the train goes across this section,
>you get a bit of current to the insulated rail to trip the accessory.
I haven't notices much of a price difference between O and S track if
you shop the right dealers. They're both pretty much dirt cheap around
here. Every time the two-rail vs. three-rail debate comes up, the issure
of reverse loop wiring is brought up! Is this really as big a problem
as all those Lionel guys claim it is? I mean, how often do you put in a
reverse loop? Gilbert solved this seemingly monumental electrical
obstacle by developing a reverse loop kit which is easy to install and
operate. Reverse loops don't bother the HO guys that much. Besides,
do you know what the dreaded byproduct of all those Lionel steel
rolling stock wheels is?-->DEAFENING NOISE!! I think most Lionel
operators become tone-deaf in the 1000-2000 Hz range because of it :-)
>Basically, Gilbert's advantages over Lionel is the more consistant scale and
>the smaller size. They also produced some great accessories, many of which
>found their way onto Lionel layouts, and at least 2 of which have been
>produced FOR O-gauge Lionel recently .
Yeah, and in Lionel-colored boxes! I bet old A.C. Gilbert turned over
in his grave! :-)
Scott R. Griggs
>> Are there any Lionel fans who will defend their brand?
>>
>Oh no! Not that two rail thing again? Well, to be real technical Flyer two
>rail suffers from the same problem as HO and smaller scales: your track
>can't loop back on itself without shorting or some special bridging device.
>Also two ground rails makes signalling off the extra rail much easier. Of
>course two rail is more realistic, but three works better. Besides if you
>want realism use super-O or GarGraves track.
>Anyway Lionel sold a lot more trains than Flyer. That says something, doesn't
>it? He He.
Good point. I think this can be attributed to a couple of things. Namely
O gauge 3-rail's dominance in the market before WW II and Lionel's
innovative products (some would call gimmicks :-). Gilbert knew he faced
an uphill battle trying to carve out a niche in the O gauge market
when he brought out a relatively unknown scale trains in 1946. That
was one strike American Flyer had against it. Lionel also beat Gilbert
to market with some items/features such as diesels, aluminum passenger
cars, Magnetraction, etc. However, in retrospect, when you look at the
entire train lines as a whole, I think Gilbert's line of trains was
superior both from a realism standpoint and an overall features view.
For example, I am willing to contend that generally, Lionel diesels
are better engineered/smoother running than Flyer, but I think Flyer
steam locos outclass their Lionel counterparts. They run very well,
almost *never* wear out, use mostly interchangeable parts (i.e. armatures,
gears, wheels, brushes, etc), and smoke (better than any Lionel could) and
chuff.
>Really any Lionel man can admit that both companies made really goood trains.
>Why else are so many still running
I agree that Lionel made very good trains and I like most of what they
made. (Even though Flyer was better :-)
>. Even the Marx are still running. Why do
>I doubt that todays trains will run that well 50 years from now?
Two words: Can Motors
af...@orion.alaska.edu
three-rail track, it's the full-size, prototype railroads that need to defend
their unconscionable use of two-rail track. After all, we all know that it
takes at least three rails to run a train. Incidentally, that's what makes
Marklin HO scale so palatable to us 0 gauge tin-platers: the Marklin I have
runs on AC power and then track has the niftiest little metal tabs running down
the center to deliver power to sliders under the locomotives, just like a
center rail but much less obvious. (Notice how smoothly I have now brought the
HO community into this debate?) Other followup postings have already mentioned
the ease of using one of the outside ground rails (after insulating it from the
ties and abutting rails) to control trackside accessories, so let me just add
the beauty of automatically controlling turnouts as well. Let's see--what
other specious arguments can we advance? How about this one: Put your AF
steamer or diesel back to back with a Lionel Berkshire or dual motored F-3 and
let's see which one gets dragged backwards. If it's the Lionel, I'll eat my
bytes.
Scott R. Griggs
That's an intriguing thought--a pull-off between AF and Lionel! Of course,
if this were a fair contest, you would judge which loco could pull more
cars of its scale, but a direct drawbar-to-drawbar pull-off would be
interesting, too. Probably the mightiest locomotive in the American
Flyer inventory would be a 1954-1957 diecast 4-8-4 northern with the
big armature and Pull-mor power. Gilbert claimed his Pull-mor equipped
engines could pull 40 or more cars (which was true). I'm sure a dual-motored
Lionel GG1 with Magnetraction could probably equal that feat! Then again,
I don't know--look at that wimpy round-top rail... :-)
Jerry Leslie
: In <1994Jul18...@orion.alaska.edu> af...@orion.alaska.edu writes:
One of the latest mags has an article about what Lionel may do with their
American Flyer line (e.g., put up for sale).
It says that Lionel is at a crossroads. Sorry my photographic memory
is so undeveloped that it can't recall any more.
--Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie
Staff Engineer
Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation (my opinions are my own)
P.O. Box 721648 9896 Bissonnet
Houston, Texas 77272 Houston, Texas, 77036
713/272-5065 713/272-5200 (fax)
gle...@isvsrv.enet.dec.com
jle...@dmccorp.com
Scott R. Griggs
>One of the latest mags has an article about what Lionel may do with their
>American Flyer line (e.g., put up for sale).
>It says that Lionel is at a crossroads. Sorry my photographic memory
>is so undeveloped that it can't recall any more.
I've heard that rumor somewhere recently also. It seems that Lionel
undergoes a 180 degree change in philosophy about every two years.
They used to compete head to head with Williams, Right of Way, MTH, etc.
in the pricey semiscale steamer market. Now, they have started shovelling
stubby postwar stuff at the market just like Fundimensions used to do (all
the while charging an arm and a leg for it). A recent S Gaugian interview
of a Lionel exec (don't recall the fellow's name) made it sound like
Lionel wasn't too interested in Flyer any more. What do they expect?
They've let the market stagnate by reissuing the same diesels over and
over and over again in different road names. Without producing starter
sets or steam locomotives, they have let the market get saturated with
the same old stuff. I wish they would sell the Flyer line to someone
with enough interest in the marque to let it prosper again. However,
I think they would see a sale of AF to someone else as creating competition
for their O gauge stuff--a situation they eliminated in 1967 when they
bought American Flyer. Time will tell...
Scott
pooh bear
The question of scale accuracy???? Well if those who say AF is closer to
scale then expain why those rails are so out of scale and why it share the
same problem of flanges that are no where near scale...
Sorry I digress.....
I think hat Lionel is an excellent line of toy trains that in some excellent
instances are approaching scale like the scale hudson, scale B6, scale M10000
the Hiawaitha ( eventhought the cars are not correct) and some of the post war engines and the new close to scale engines. The biggest problem both share in relation to scale isd the size of the coup[lers and the flanges..
I think Lionel has a better collector value,higher play vale and also it seems AF also tried to
sell to the Lionel market by making thier accessories that could be used wth
Lionel ( I say this because I have a few AF accessories that I use with my
Lionel and also the AF instructions sheets also cover using the accessories
with Lionel ) . Now I am not saying AF is not a good product I happen to
have a AF hudson, an AF pacific And an Af challenger and also a prewar AF HO
Hudson but in my personal opinion they take to much room for the AF curves,
much more difficult to wire the track on return loops, accessoroes are difficlt
to wire compared to Lionel, and the peices are much more difficult to repair.
But I guess this is a debate that many have had before and many will have again.
Tony
