Arbour Allegheny
Chris Webster
> The original incarnation of the Arbour Allegheny had plastic drivers with
> metal driver tires and were supposed to pick up current by the use of sprung
> pewter bushings embedded in the frame...
> that was on the "hot" side. The grounded side relied on the chrome plating
> on the driver assembly to carry current to the axle/frame. No I'm not
> kidding. I think it's safe to say the Arbour Allegheny was probably the
> worst engineered steam loco kit of at least the latter half of the century.
> I paid close to $200 for mine in 1977, including the
> "superdetail kit" (also @#^&%&$^ pewter). Let it go for $35 at a swap meet
> in the mid 80's. I didn't want to rip anybody off, so I tried hard to talk
> the guy out of it, but he had one already and was
> looking for a parts donor (no, his other one wasn't running either).
Well, here is a link to proof that someone actually assembled an Arbour
allegheny:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=429567502
(If the link gets truncated, search ebay for item 429567502.)
--Chris Webster www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~cwebster
----------------------------------------------------------------------
PEACHCREEK
>allegheny
Yes, but did he assemble the valve gear?
I was given one by Tony Koester when he was editor of RMC to build for a
review.
When I finished building the engine I called Tony and told him I could write
the review but he wouldn't publish it. He said that he suspected as much.
I never did get the valve gear to stay together. I think the parts were cast
Jell-O.
John Glaab
Peach Creek Shops
Andy Harman
<cweb...@NOSPAMembers.asce.org> wrote:
>Well, here is a link to proof that someone actually assembled an Arbour
>allegheny:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=429567502
>
>(If the link gets truncated, search ebay for item 429567502.)
I notice the picture link is broken.
Detail rivaling brass? Maybe early 50's brass.
I want to see it :-) It's probably one of the Arbour demonstrators...
which I also never saw run, in fact I have never seen any Arbour loco
run.
The talk way back when was you could use MDC's drivers to replace the
Arbour's and give it a more conventional pickup arrangement but don't
know how much work was involved in this.
Also the loco kit (issued 1977) came with a blurb raving about the
"wonderful" metal the thing was made of - something they called
"NEY-2000" or something like that. It was too rough to cast cleanly
like even so-so grade zamac, too hard to sand, too soft and lumpy to
make side rods or valve gear, and pretty much impossible to solder.
Probably the worst junk I've ever seen to make a steam loco kit out
of... very similar to pewter.
As my hobby shop guy put it, the company's owner was probably in the
metals business, came up with this crap, and said "I know! Let's make
trains out of it!"
The Arbour Allegheny (and the other Arbour kits) were the low point in
a decade of some really bad stuff. Occasionally something almost this
bad rears its ugly head on the HO market today but the word spreads
more quickly... so even dealers don't get stuck with the junk on their
shelves.
Andy
----------------------------------------------------
Please reply to aharman at hhcustom dot com
Visit the RPM Web Page at http://www.rpmrail.org
Or my personal site at http://www.hhcustom.com/nspmg
----------------------------------------------------
Ross
While I usually agree down the line with you, here are some exceptions:
You wrote:
> I have never seen any Arbour loco run.
I have the Berkshire and it runs extremely well, but, see below.
> The talk way back when was you could use MDC's drivers to replace the
> Arbour's and give it a more conventional pickup....
My original drivers wobbled but Arbour sent a "good" replacement. Those
have run for over 10 years.
> ... "wonderful" metal the thing was made of.....
> It was too rough to cast cleanly like even so-so grade zamac...
My castings were mostly good.
> too hard to sand
Never tried sanding but filing works fine.
> too soft and lumpy to make side rods or valve gear
"Lumpy" wasn't an issue with mine but "too soft" most definitely was!
> and pretty much impossible to solder.
I had no trouble with zinc chloride flux.
> were the low point in a decade of some really bad stuff.
The Arbour Berkshire was pretty bad.
MRR ran a review on the Berkshire in about 1983. Reading between the
lines, one could see that there would be problems. Nevertheless, the
reviewer claimed that it ran. Liking a challenge (and wanting the
Berkshire) I paid $60.00 for the kit and also bought the superdetailing
kit. More has to be added to get a modern brass equivalent.
1. As stated above, Arbour replaced wobbly drivers.
2. Siderods proved to be useless so I made my own.
3. A can motor was added but the gearbox works fine.
4. I rejected the valve gear out of hand - it was clear that it would
never work.
Today the loco runs fine but has no valve gear. In addition, I never
have added all the details.
In sum, the loco is retty bad as purchased so I do agree with most of
the negative statements about it. But, I have an Arbour loco that runs.
--
Ross Allen, owner, RAILSERVE Custom Layouts
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jon Miller
"The locomotive runs as good as its older derivation allows...not as smooth
or as quiet as brass, but your satisfaction is guaranteed. "
I would assume this to mean it runs or your money back (less shipping of
course). Email to the seller should determine if you would even consider a
bid! The pictures on ebay are good and seem to indicate the engine does
have valve gear, whether it is from the kit or not is unknown. I would
guess price to be in the 300/400 range as the Arbour Allegheny's seem to be
getting that price. A kit just sold on ebay for $380 (HO Kit Arbour 2-6-6-6
Allegheny Detail Kit Item #423573521).
Jon Miller
heritage" of this engine. Arbour and Winton had nothing to do with each
other so it is possible that this is a kit bashed engine. It might have
Winton frame/wheels etc. Like I said before email with the owner/seller
should clear up so things if they know the history of the engine.
Jon Miller
to the Kemtron line, which is now owned by Bowser I think. Winton made a
very nice, for it's time, Allegheny. I have pictures in a book of many
castings for this engine. I have talked to many people who have had or seen
Winton Allegheny's that did not have these castings and parts. I have no
knowledge of what went on here. It is possible that all these parts were
developed, a sample made, and the model was discontinued before any were
sold.
Jon Miller
"About Winton--
From: The Reporting Mark, Volume 10 Number 3 April 1992---
"Whit Towers on Winton, Winton Brown who had a brass investment casting
operation for the jewelry trade, lived in Santa Monica, CA. True he
offered a stamped brass Berkshire kit and followed with a 2-6-6-6 Alleghany.
The later was updated to a kit of mostly individual lost wax cast details.
His pattern maker for that venture was Ed Radebaugh, also of Santa Monica.
Ed made all the patterns for the revised Alleghany -- some 400 parts.
The venture never paid off through sufficient sales to reimburse Radebaugh
for his pattern making activity. When Winton gave up his regular business
of producing jewelry finding, he turned over both the Alleghany and
Berkshire to Radebaugh, who ran for a few years with similar results of
negligible sales. Ed ultimately turned the entire business over to Troxel
Brothers Hobby shop, here in Los Angles. At this time Winton Brown had
moved to Danville, CA.
Then as you described, the "line" went through several hands following the
death of one of the two Troxel Brothers and the sale of the retail Troxel
Bros. Hobby Shop here in L.A."
He feels there may be some connection between the Arbour castings and
the Winton engines. Like, Arbour may have used the Winton castings as
masters, just speculation, no knowledge here. One would have to compare
both engines side by side and look for castings marks that matched!
Bob May
like cast parts for the valve gear. Personally, I find that the
medium gray is too light for a steam engine. $102 at present and the
reserve isn't met yet.
--
Bob May
Access1 has gone Chapter 7 so I don't know how long my website is
going to last.
Bob May
B.Rumary
> guess price to be in the 300/400 range as the Arbour Allegheny's seem to be
> getting that price. A kit just sold on ebay for $380 (HO Kit Arbour 2-6-6-6
> Allegheny Detail Kit Item #423573521).
>
of these "investors" are like - they buy a kit and then stick it on the shelf
and never build it. In fact many of them won't even take the shrink wrap off,
because this will "reduce the kit's value"!! So for these idiots it doesn't
matter if the kit will make up properly, or even if half the bits are missing
- they'll never find out. ;-D
Brian Rumary, England
Jon Miller
even if half the bits are missing<
Brian,
Yes, you are right but the fact is they are setting the prices. Someone
who is going to build and run the model has to wait until this group is
spent out and then hope the model they want still comes on the market.
rathburne
It was more or less saying, these are impossible to build
That review was the harshest I ever saw in MR, which tells
you something.
BTW, is Arbour still around? I can't believe there is much
of a market any more for steam engine kits. Maybe wrong though.
In article <20000905201406...@ng-cv1.aol.com>,
--
Rathburne
Visit http://communities.msn.com/BubbasBendRailfanandClearCutSociety
Some good real-train pictures
Peter
>>
I remember the MR review on these years ago. It was more or less saying, these
are impossible to build That review was the harshest I ever saw in MR, which
tells you something.
>>
Not really.
The industry had recently transitioned from "craftsman kits" (Ambroid
On-of-Many) to "Shake 'n' Bake" kits, so the Arbour model probably got caught
in that transition.
>>
BTW, is Arbour still around? I can't believe there is much of a market any
more for steam engine kits. Maybe wrong though.
>>
English's (Bowser) bought the remaining stock, and some parts are (or were)
listed in Bowser's catalog.
Bowser lists many steam kits, many of which were originally Penn Line.
Bowser got its start in the late 1940s with a Challenger kit, which was later
updated to be a sort-of Big Boy kit. The Bog Boy kit has been deleted, but the
Challenger kit remains.
A correct tender was never offered for this kit.
Some USRA kits are offered. The "Northern" has no prototype.
BTW, there have been several uncompleted Arbour Allegheny kits on eBay, and
maybe one new-in-box kit as well.
PEACHCREEK
Allegheny was advertised as "Not a Casting in the Kit" Everything was a
turning or sheet or tube or bar. The boiler was NOT a tube but a bar. Could
have made a fine mace. The engine was extremely simplistic. The drivers
didn'r even have spokes. There were round holes drilled in the drivers. they
looked more like Scullen disk drivers.
I own two.
What everyone calls a Winton Allegheny was actuallt made by Ma-Ra and later the
Troxel Brothers. This was a "Winton Heritage" model. whereas the original
Winton hasd no castings, the Ma-Ra/Troxel Brothers engine was almost ALL
castings. Frame, cab, firebox, cylinders, drivers, etc. When assembled it
looked great, but it took a machinist to build a good running mechanism.
Problem was large castings (the frame) warp as they cool and driver alignment
was a bear.
I own two. Yes, I collect Alleghenys.
Arbour bought the old Ma/Ra/Troxel castings and pattermed their loco from it.
They didn't duplicate the previous engine but if you have all the engines
together you can see that they did some of the things the same way.
Regarding the old original Winton engine. I knew a dealer in NY that had two
shops, one in White Plains and one in Manhattan. He had a van that he used to
run things from one store to another and he had an old Winton Allegheny that he
kept laying on the dashboard. I asked him about this once and he said that he
had some trouble in Manhattan once and decided he needed something to defend
himself in case he was ever attacked. I asked him why he didn't carry a billy
club. His premise was that if he slugged someone with a billy club the cops
would give him a hard time but if he just happened to pick up a piece of model
railroad equipment......... (He also figured he could do more damage with the
Winton than he could with a billy club...)
Disorganized
"PEACHCREEK" <peach...@aol.com> :
____________________________
Another Interesting, educational post by John Glaab, filled with *facts*,
not only opinions! Thank you John.
It would be nice if this group had contributors in all phases of the hobby,
with John's credentials . We could apply to the IRS, for status as a
not-for-profit religious, educational group. We could collect
dues(contributions), and every Fall have a picnic at John Dalton's place.
Entertainment would be provided by the goats chasing <><><>TOM<><><> around
the pasture.
Jon Miller
Interesting, I always wondered why there was such a difference between
what people described to me as a Winton 2-6-6-6 and the pictures I have in
my book. Now I know. Have saved this info to file so I can recall it for
any others who might be interested.
What was the connection between the "Ma/Ra/Troxel castings" and
Kemtron? Some of the casting were apparently in the Kemtron line, such as
the sand domes.
Also the book has a picture of the cylinder casting (front, with all the
piping), nice casting even for today, and the credit on the photo is "Winton
Miniature Engineering Co.". The book was printed/published 1955.
I am assuming that the Ma/Ra/Troxel Winton was quite rare as I have
never heard of anyone (except you) who has one. Talked to quite a few
people who had the original without castings.
Bunker Cole
>Another Interesting, educational post by John Glaab, filled with *facts*,
>not only opinions! Thank you John.
>
>It would be nice if this group had contributors in all phases of the hobby,
>with John's credentials . We could apply to the IRS, for status as a
>not-for-profit religious, educational group. We could collect
>dues(contributions), and every Fall have a picnic at John Dalton's place.
>Entertainment would be provided by the goats chasing <><><>TOM<><><> around
>the pasture.
You're not as disorganized as you make out to be. It's all illusion.
A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
Bunker Cole
Disorganized
> >It would be nice if this group had contributors in all phases of the
hobby,
> >with John's credentials . We could apply to the IRS, for status as a
> >not-for-profit religious, educational group. We could collect
> >dues(contributions), and every Fall have a picnic at John Dalton's place.
> >Entertainment would be provided by the goats chasing <><><>TOM<><><>
around
> >the pasture.
> _____________________________
> You're not as disorganized as you make out to be. It's all illusion.
>
>
> A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
>
> Bunker Cole
_________________________
<LOL....LOL>
That conjured up a mental image of Mike Usoff racing through the pasture
driving a high speed golf cart; <><><>TOM<><><> wearing his
propeller-equipped beanie, hanging out the side of the cart attempting to
lasso a goat! The goat was having difficulty out-maneuvering the cart
because he(the goat) was hysterical with laughter...
all the while I'm smiling because I realize...."all this is tax deductible!"
What's that I smell on the Barbecue?
PEACHCREEK
>Kemtron? Some of the casting were apparently in the Kemtron line, such as
>the sand domes.
I don't believe there was any connection between Kemtron and Ma/Ra/Troxel.
There were similar domes in the Kemtron catalog but they were not from the same
masters. Kemtron's were not quite C&O but close. They were better detailed
than the corresponding Ma/Ra/Troxel. Kemtron also had a boiler front with the
flat face for mounting two air pumps and a large rectangular door in the
center. I never did figure out if it was fo an Allegheny or an NP engine.
Now, has anyone ever seen an M.B. Austin Allegheny? (pg. 35 of the Brown Book)
John Glaab
Peach Creek Shops
BTW. Comedy central is another board.
trainnut
of the PRR J1's and it is amazing. You can't tell if it is brass or not.
And does it run. He put a can motor and NWSL gear box in it. Filled the
boiler with drill rod. It will pull 140 loaded coal cars and maybe more.
WE couldn't get more around the layout, they'd derail around the curves. It
is unreal what he did.
--
Model Railroading is Fun
Have Fun Today!
8>)
Redhawk
> >A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
>
>
A hot bed of coals, a little KC Masterpiece. . .
Christian
Brockport
B.Rumary
> who is going to build and run the model has to wait until this group is
> spent out and then hope the model they want still comes on the market.
>
collectors" - limited signed editions, and so on. Brings the hobby down to
the level of those cutesy china plates with pictures of puppies or
kittens, in a "limited edition of only 100,000 copies". Yuk! :<#
All we can hope is that this ridiculously inflated market eventually
collapses and they all loose their shirts.
PEACHCREEK
several reasons.
Economics. The worst thing that can happen to a business that supplies goods
to a merketplace is to have a vast inventory. Inventory costs money. It takes
up space, has to be managed and most of all the money you have in stuff that is
just sitting there could have been spent on something that sells quicker.
Second. Uncertainty in the market place. Say you want to build a plastic
model and sell it . How many do you produce? What will the market absorb? How
many must you sell to pay for the die work, development, matrketing, etc?
Using your best crystal ball you make a EWAG. (Old Nasa term, Educated Wild
Assed Guess)
Now you go to the injection molding company and get in their production queue
for your order
You now start marketing. Two things can happen. You underestimated, you
overestimated. Youy NEVER get it dead on. So if you overproduced you pat
yourself on the back by not ordering more and getting stuck with a really huge
amount of dead inventory, while you are trying to figure out how to get rid of
the existing overstock without alienating all your distributors.
You underproduced. You produced enough to cover your initial costs and the
market is still demanding more. You are one smart dude! Management loves you
because you sold everything and covered costs and probably made a nifty profit.
So, heres where you make use of the "Limited Run" aspect. First, you can't go
back to the injection molding company and say, "Make 25,000 more, right now!"
They will look at you over the tops of their collective glasses and say,
"Sorry, but we have our factory working at capacity for the next (however many)
months. We can make more for you then." Now marketing gets into the act and
starts really making the most of the situation. The next run won't be
duplicates of the first run, there will be road name changes, new numbers,
colors, packaging. What does this do? It creates the "collectors mentality".
Simply put, it means you will buy another one even if you already have one,
because it is different and desirable.
Do you remember when Life-Like produced E-7's and E-6's? They overproduced and
some wholesalers started selling the stuff at train shows at below dealer cost.
Shop owners did not take kindly to this and they let Life-Like know just how
much stuff they would stock in the future if this policy of glutting the market
continued.
Ta-Da! Limited Pruduction is born! Since there is never going to be enought
for everyone, there will be no dead inventory in the warehouse, distributors
won't be dumping the stuff at train shows and shop owners won't be trying to
mug the Life-Like reps at the Chicago trade show.
There is an effect to the consumer. You can no longer hold back and wait for
the price to drop through the floor.
My advice. Decide what you want. Shop for the best price but don't expect to
pick it up at dealer net at some train show.
Disorganized
"TCol" <am...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:levmrs087c5m0dapa...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:47:29 GMT, ball...@masonjar.net (Bunker Cole)
> wrote:
>
> >You're not as disorganized as you make out to be. It's all illusion.
> >
> >
> >A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
>
>
>
<laughing> Not a problem Ray! If you have ever seen <><><>TOM<><><> chase
'chicks', you'd know that the goats have nothing to fear.
Of course, I've heard tell.....that Georgia goats aren't as 'quick between
the ears' as your normal everyday, run-of-the-mill goat. Could be that
mental sluggishness applies to their footspeed also?
Jeff Scarbrough
<ctuc...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> >A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
>>
>> And what happens if he catches one? :)
>>
>
>A hot bed of coals, a little KC Masterpiece. . .
I can't imagine <><><><><><> would taste good, no matter what sauce
you used. I've heard he's a little too gamey...
Jeff Scarbrough Proud Charter Member Athens, Georgia
CEO and Section Gang, Piedmont and Southern Railroad
http://members.home.net/p-srr/
http://serr.railfan.net http://smrf.railfan.net/SMRF
Jim Stewart
Jeff Scarbrough <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:39bc1fd4.74321829@news...
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:52:11 GMT, "Redhawk"
> <ctuc...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
> >>
> >> And what happens if he catches one? :)
> >>
> >
> >A hot bed of coals, a little KC Masterpiece. . .
>
> I can't imagine <><><><><><> would taste good, no matter what sauce
> you used. I've heard he's a little too gamey...
NO cook the little ones on a spit. Scrape the meat and make the best fajitas
in the world.
Jim Stewart
Alan Gilchrist
rec.models.railroad, TCol at am...@acpub.duke.edu said...
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:47:29 GMT, ball...@masonjar.net (Bunker Cole)
> wrote:
>
> >You're not as disorganized as you make out to be. It's all illusion.
> >
> >A better entertainment would be ++++Tom++++ chasing the goats.
>
> And what happens if he catches one? :)
Milk for breakfast...
--
Alan (Remove ".NSPM" from address before replying via email)
NMRA, NFR, and WOD member ICQ 30624286
B.Rumary
method of testing the market. That is producing a short run of a
limited interest product of a number that you are pretty sure will
sell, and only producing further runs if there is an unexpected
demand for it.
What I was against is the "signed, limited edition", where the
manufacturer will only produce a certain number and not one more,
regardless of demand. Usually the number involved is deliberately
set much lower than the expected demand, just to push up the
"feeding frenzy". You also get a signed certificate legally
guaranteeing that there will never be any more of this product and
all patterns, printing plates, etc., will be destroyed as soon as
the production run is finished.
This trick is often justified as being for the protection of the
customer, by "protecting the value of your investment" or "ensuring
high quality control". In fact the stuff usually is no better
quality that run of the mill products, and has no special value to
genuine collectors, who rightly regard such stuff with contempt.
This cynical marketing ploy doesn't worry me much when it applies
to the usual crap, like "art collectibles" (e.g. fluffy kitten
plates), but when it is used on model kits, and especially books, I
get very hot under the collar!
Unfortunately good quality kits, and books on interesting subjects,
that are done as "limited editions" are kept out of the reach of
the real enthusiasts who do have a real use for them.