PRR logo restricted
toml...@wmich.edu
"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
My initial reaction is extremely negative. It seems to me that this
individual is contributing nothing to society, and yet is trying to suck
economic life from it. This is not like CSX attempting to protect its image
by restricting the use of the Chessie logo. They are a current company and
they themselves have an interest in the logo. Where is this individuals
interest? Not in the logo, but only in the money it can make him.
What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer? One is a slimy,
scum-sucking bottom feeder. The other is a fish.
Richard F. Weyand
>I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
>"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
>-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
You should check the thread on this subject in rec.railroad. If it's off your
news server it should be in the archive site (which is in the FAQ, don't
remember right now...)
Rich Weyand | ~~~~*****MMMMMM) |Rich Weyand
Weyand Associates| _______ ___,---. ---+_______:_ |TracTronics
Comm Consultants | |_N_&_W_| |_N_&_W_| |__|________|_ |Model RR Electronics
wey...@mcs.com | ooo ooo ~ ooo ooo ~ oOOOO- OOOO=o\ |wey...@mcs.com
Fredric W. Dabney
: I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
: "Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
: -any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
There has been extensive discussion of this for some time on the
rec.railroads newsgroup. Negative, needless to say. The state of
Pennsylvania is not amused.
Policies and opinions held by the employer of the undersigned
are not reflected in the views of the undersigned. Or anyone
else in their right mind, for that matter.
Fred Dabney/ KRWG Radio/ New Mexico State University (fda...@nmsu.edu)
"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained
by stupidity" (unknown)
Bruce Harrison
the past few years has spread into the model railroad side. Between the auto
manufacturers and the sponsors of racing vehicles both wanting "a piece of the
pie", the model manufacturers can't afford to pay the licensing fees to be able
to produce the kits we modelers request. Anyone interested in producing any-
thing with the PRR logo on it will probably haveto go "bootleg".
Bruce Harrison
U. of Louisville
Renal Medicine
Larry Marshall
>I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
>"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
>-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
I would wonder whether this would stand up in court. "Labels" and "trademarks"
(eg - Coca Cola graphic) are guarded carefully against becoming considered in
"general use" as once they are, it's difficult to act upon trademark
infringement. The "Keystone" logo can be seen everywhere you turn in
Pennsylvania. In fact, now that I think about it, isn't it on everyone's car
as a license plate?
----------
Larry Marshall lmar...@pnfi.forestry.ca
Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880
Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275
Fredric W. Dabney
: In article <1994Jul26.115414.19951@wmichgw>
: toml...@wmich.edu writes:
:
: >
: >I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
: >"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
: >-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
: Sorry to hear that the same disease that has infested the model-car industry
: the past few years has spread into the model railroad side.
According to a staement attributed to the person (name forgotten) in the
rec.railroad posts, he was interested in "preserving history" and would
consider royalty free licenses to not-for-profit organizations. No
matter how this cake is sliced however, it is still rancid. Dig the
original posts out, a lot of comment was offered, not to say a "contract"
on the guy. And legal action may yet ensue to reverse the award of the
trademark.
By the way... Be careful. Some lawyer may sue over that joke....
Tim Strikemaster Bowser
>I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
>"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
>-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
This was a topic of conversation in the group about three months ago. The
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is extremely interested in this particular
individual. I'd assume my home state wouldn't be too thrilled about losing
one of it's more readily identifiable emblems.
>My initial reaction is extremely negative. It seems to me that this
>individual is contributing nothing to society, and yet is trying to suck
>economic life from it. This is not like CSX attempting to protect its image
>by restricting the use of the Chessie logo. They are a current company and
>they themselves have an interest in the logo. Where is this individuals
>interest? Not in the logo, but only in the money it can make him.
>What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer? One is a slimy,
>scum-sucking bottom feeder. The other is a fish.
Let's hope the Pennsylvania Attorney General is the bigger "catfish" in
this battle of the bottom-feeders.
Tim "I want a H9s and a N5c in the backyard!" Bowser
--
Tim Bowser ("Strikemaster") | str...@steam.rome.ny.us or try
Chip Socketer & Tape Twiddler of | batcomputer!steam!strike
The Iron Horse Information Service |--------------------------------
Jerry Leslie
Dumb question du jour: didn't the Penn Central Corp retain rights to
the PRR & NYC logos ? If so, perhaps a good lawyer/modelrailroader at
Penn Central can take this twit to court ?
This reminds one of the AutoTrain trademarks that were required when that
was still a viable corporation.
--Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie
Staff Engineer
Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation (my opinions are my own)
P.O. Box 721648 9896 Bissonnet
Houston, Texas 77272 Houston, Texas, 77036
713/272-5065 713/272-5200 (fax)
gle...@isvsrv.enet.dec.com
jle...@dmccorp.com
Tim Strikemaster Bowser
>>I see from the August RMC that someone has bought the rights to the name
>>"Pennsylvania Railroad" and the "Keystone" Logo, and has given notice that
>>-any- use of either will require the payment of a royalty to this individual.
>I would wonder whether this would stand up in court. "Labels" and "trademarks"
>(eg - Coca Cola graphic) are guarded carefully against becoming considered in
>"general use" as once they are, it's difficult to act upon trademark
>infringement. The "Keystone" logo can be seen everywhere you turn in
>Pennsylvania. In fact, now that I think about it, isn't it on everyone's car
>as a license plate?
Our northern friend is correct. You can't swing the proverbial feline in
my home state without swatting some example of the Keystone. License
plates, state highway signs, Pennsylvania State Police cruisers (man, I
*hate* seeing those guys in the rear-view mirror). The slimeball who
dreamed this "rights" gag up is probably hoping just the PRR version isn't
covered under the general usage clause. Somewhere in the back of my fuzzy
mind, I recall that the PRR was started as a state-developed or -backed
enterprise. I'd think that either the State, or Conrail as successor,
would have control over the "PRR shield".
RIP, Northern Central branch, gone "rails-to-trails"...
bp...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu
to the name "Pennsylvania Railroad" and the keystone logo, two
avenues for closing this get rich scheme come to mind (and I
believe the first will probably be litigated at some point):
1. The Pennsylvania Railroad name and keystone logo may have
become public domain items...and due to the failure over the
past few years of anyone to enforce the copyright/trademark may
have been abandoned. Unfortunately, this area of law is NOT my
expertise. Moreover, it would take someone with a significant
amount of legal muscle (money!!) to litigate this matter.
2. Lobby the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to have the name and
herald declared a Commonwealth (state) treasure. Anybody out
there have a relative in the Pennsylvania legislature (or U.S.
Congress for that matter) who could lead this charge. PLEASE!!
The fate of my Eastern Rail Lines (ERL for short) is at a
perilous crossroads if I can't keep the PRL on line.
Just my 2 rails worth.
Brian Lindquist
--
*********************************************************
"LINK"
Dave Nelson
|> Dumb question du jour: didn't the Penn Central Corp retain rights to
|> the PRR & NYC logos ?
I would think so. Consider: When the Altoona shops closed the PRR dumped
10's of thousands of photographic negatives into a dumpster. Someone
called the public library, who salvaged thousands. Years later, Conrail
reclaimed the negatives from the library, claiming ownership. The public
library caved in and gave them back. Whether Conrail was right or wrong
didn't matter. What did matter is that Conrail has lawyers on retainer
and the Public Library didn't. Same principle most likely applies here
too.
Dave Nelson
___________________________________________________________
Hewlett Packard email: da...@dtc.hp.com
ICBD fax: (415) 852-8312
1501 Page Mill Rd. phone: (415) 857-2902
Palo Alto CA. 94304
___________________________________________________________
Fredric W. Dabney
: Fredric W. Dabney (fda...@nmsu.edu) wrote:
: : Bruce Harrison (BEHA...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) wrote:
: : : In article <1994Jul26.115414.19951@wmichgw>
: : : toml...@wmich.edu writes:
: Dumb question du jour: didn't the Penn Central Corp retain rights to
: the PRR & NYC logos ? If so, perhaps a good lawyer/modelrailroader at
: Penn Central can take this twit to court ?
Another reason to read the posts in rec.railroad or look them up. All of
this was gone into in excruciating detail.
HOwever, Penn Central (the holding company) changed its name to one of
these blah "General National" type names better to reflect their line of
business (money laundering or whatever) and it seems they abandoned the
Penn names and trademarks. Presumably the NYC stuff as well, but nobody
mentioned that. Maybe no one wanted to register that.
Catherine Beauheim
Just a few questions.
--Nathan
Richard F. Weyand
>From: da...@dtc.hp.com (Dave Nelson )
>Subject: Re: PRR logo restricted
>Date: 27 Jul 1994 19:01:26 GMT
>In article <3152pj$e...@uuneo.neosoft.com>, jle...@dmccorp.com (Jerry Leslie) writes:
>|> Dumb question du jour: didn't the Penn Central Corp retain rights to
>|> the PRR & NYC logos ?
>I would think so. Consider: When the Altoona shops closed the PRR dumped
>10's of thousands of photographic negatives into a dumpster. Someone
>called the public library, who salvaged thousands. Years later, Conrail
>reclaimed the negatives from the library, claiming ownership. The public
>library caved in and gave them back. Whether Conrail was right or wrong
>didn't matter. What did matter is that Conrail has lawyers on retainer
>and the Public Library didn't. Same principle most likely applies here
>too.
My understanding is that Conrail let the rights die through non-renewal
in 1990 (Duh).
I think the best argument is public domain, as the keystone and name
were used _after_ 1990 and _before_ Richard Neumann had his idea
to renew them in his name. Of course, state of PA has a claim, too.
Either that or they're gonna need a lot of paint remover (see other
thread) to get those trademarked keystones off their license plates,
road signs, etc., etc.
MAX M. MAGLIARO
who is the guy who thinks he can charge money to people who use the
PRR name or logo because he has incorporated himself as the
"Pennsylvania Railroad Company", note the following:
I have posted info on this over the last two months. I have written
to the Governor of PA, my state reps and senators in PA, and I have
received responses, including one from the PA State Museum Director.
The following is what they told me.
1) The guy has indeed incorporated under that name. There is nothing
to stop him.
2) The guy does NOT own the trademark. That is a separate item.
i.e. the reason Xerox Corp will sue you if you make a photocopier
and call it a Xerox machine is NOT because of their corporate name,
it is because they hold a trademark on the name "Xerox". The
trademark and the corporate name are two different things.
3) Neumann obviously didn't know this. He has spent $15,000 in legal
fees to get the corporate name and he still has no legal right
to demand royalties. The logo and trademark are still held by
some other corporation (I forget who it is, but oddly enough, it
is NOT the Penn Central --- or the remains thereof).
4) The PA Museum Director and the state attorney are waiting for
Neumann to actually DO something wrong before they can confront
him in court and tell him to take a hike. Thus far, he hasn't
collected a dime from anyone. And he probably won't unless
someone just pays him without asking any questions.
5) His claim that he only wants to go after "for profit enterprises"
is baloney, since the PA museums, tourist attractions, historical
societies, not to mention railroad fans and modelers, will all
pay and will all suffer if he gets his way.
6) He has wrankled the state government in PA, so he is probably
finished.
Don't worry about this guy anymore until he really does something.
--
Max Magliaro
M...@ICF.HRB.COM
Philipsburg, Pennsylvania
"He may look like an idiot, and he may sound like an idiot, but don't
let him fool you. He really is an idiot." --- Groucho Marx
Dennis H Lippert
>If I write an article for a magazine and mention PRR do I have to pay for
>that? Do I have to pay for using "Pennsylvania Railroad" right now?
Yep. $24.95, check or money order. I've been appointed as an official
"teller" of sorts for this guy who owns the rights.... send the money to
me at..... 8-)
Seriously. About the complaints of the State/Commonwealth of PA using
keystones, I don't think that the "keystone" itself is under scrutiny...
only the PRR version with the mishmash of "PRR" in the center. Of course,
Conrail isn't the only one to worry about owning stuff with keystones on
it... right here in the strip district of Pittsburgh we have the old
warehouse buildings with beautiful 5-foot-tall tile PRR keystones... (and
a bunch of groupies who'd like to own 'em!! )
Den
--
[Disclaimer: The above article is NOT endorsed or approved by my employer]
==========================================================================
Dennis Lippert - mac...@pitt.edu or mac...@vm2.cis.pitt.edu
Motto: "Making the computer lab a nicer place to live"