General Lionel Questions
Frank Condelli
In a previous article, PV...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Paul Van Wicklen) says:
>I've got a few questions concerning Lionel's product line. Any answers,
>thoughts, & comments are appreciated.
>
>1. Aside from the "Super-O" track of the 60's, why didn't Lionel ever come
> out with a track that was more realistic looking?
>
>2. Why are so many of Lionel's accessories so out of scale (crossing gates,
> gateman, animated stations, etc.)?
>
>3. How does Lionel explain the high cost of their merchandise, especially
> when there are companies like Weaver & MTH who produce a product which
> is closer to scale, of equal or higher quality, of a more limited
> production, and often less expensive?
>
>I'm not looking to be flamed. I just want to know some of your opinions.
>My collection is primarily Lionel, and probably always will be. My goal
>is to have fun without worrying about something looking exactly correct.
>
>-Paul Van Wicklen
> Athens, Georgia
>
Paul, your questions are good ones. I have heard them come up many times.
I may not have the difinitive answers but will give what I know. The
track question, yes more realistic track would be a Big step up. Lionel
experienced major proplems with its introduction of Super-0 due in part to
highly defective switch mecanisms, and the skinny center "rail" chewing up
the center pick up roller on engines and rolling stock. They quickly
withdrew their "Super" ? 0 track from the market. Business was not good
for Lionel in the sixtes and soon Lionel would be taken over by General
Mills, that's when the MPC (more plastic crap) era began. General
mills was having enough of a problem trying to figure out what to do in
this model railroad business and it never dawned on them I suppose to
update the track configuration. So here we are wit LTI and Richard Kuhn
who seem to be leading Lionel down the preverbial path to greatness once
again. Will he introduce a new track? Good qustion. It's anyones guess
here. I for one would like to see it come to pass. But you must remember
"GARGRAVES" this very good quality, realistic looking track has been
around for a long time and has made a Big impact on the LIONEL comunity.
So will LIONEL try to buck this trend?
Lionel accessories out of scale? Some yes some no. I would like to know
the answer to this myself. It's not as if they don't know. Somestimes
they get it bang on then othere times tey are so far off it is impossible
to believe. I would like to hear from others on this subject also.
As for LIONEL pricing I will have to agree with my friend Alex, see other
responses to these question. I like Alex was on the L.C.C.A. sponsered
tour of the LIONEL factory last July and it's easy to understand why the
prices are high after you see what's going on there. Most everything is
done by hand by union employes. They get on the job training and are
eligible for futher education programs. AS far as I am concerned I am
pleased with what LIONEL is doing and if I must pay a higher price to keep
workers working in Michigan as opposed to Korea or some other far off
place well so be it. As long as their product is of a high quality which
seems to be the current trend.
Enough said. Let's hear from others!
Frank
o o o o o o
o o o o o
o ______________
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|_ _______________________/______ | Railroading
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FRANK CONDELLI * CARP * ONTARIO * CANADA * ad...@freenet.carlton.ca
613-839-5334
--
* Frank Condelli * Carp, Ontario, Canada * ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca *
Alan Edward Petrillo
>2. Why are so many of Lionel's accessories so out of scale (crossing gates,
> gateman, animated stations, etc.)?
>3. How does Lionel explain the high cost of their merchandise, especially
> when there are companies like Weaver & MTH who produce a product which
> is closer to scale, of equal or higher quality, of a more limited
> production, and often less expensive?
I suspect that Paul, like myself and many others, has been model
railroading with Lionel so long that it becomes easy to overlook the
"playing with trains" origin of the company. As a toy for a little kid
to put on the living room floor next to his clunky, noisy, smoking
Lionel steamer, those scale-60' crossing flashers are perfect. As a
fan of real railroads and a one-time dabbler in HO scale, I've never
felt comfortable with it, but as with all tinplate, it's up to you how
toylike you want your layout to be. There are plenty of O scale
products that can be adapted to tinplate; in the example of Weaver
products, the adaptation is done for you. However, a Weaver RS3 isn't
really a "first engine".
As for producing more realistic track, I think that the cost for the
beginner would increase, and serious modelers would still use Gargraves
and other higher-priced products. Running a company with the breadth of
market appeal that Lionel has necessitates some compromises. Money
spent retooling trainset track can't be spent on the scale Mohawk, which
is obviously a more profitable direction. Also, as was mentioned,
Lionel takes products from drawing board to licensed retailer in this
country. As far as I can tell, K-Line is a design and marketing
company that depends on Asian toy companies for its products and
existing stores for its sales. It should also be added that these Asian
companies are large integrated producers, with economies of scale that
Lionel can't hope to match.
To an extent, this is all speculation. If I've offended any K-Line
employees, feel free to set me straight.
Alan Petrillo
Cape Elizabeth, Maine
Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh
Carl Becker
[stuff deleted]
: Lionel
: experienced major proplems with its introduction of Super-0 due in part to
: highly defective switch mecanisms, and the skinny center "rail" chewing up
: the center pick up roller on engines and rolling stock.
Not to start a flamewar, but this legend of the center rail on Super-O track
chewing up pickup rollers is, as far as I can tell, a myth. My dad and I
have Super-O track on our layout, and have not experienced any problems.
The track, and the trains that run on it, were bought new in the '50s, and
have been run regularly ever since. The wear and tear on this equipment
is no different from trains running on tubular O-gauge or Gargraves track
(yes, we use all 3). Also, Fred Severson at QSI has an extensive layout
of all Super-O, and claims to have no problems with wear on the pickup
rollers. Fred bends the Super-O curves to a wider radius when he needs
one: he likes the look of Super-O so much he'd rather do that than go to
Gargraves!
As far as the switch mechanisms: that's a new one on me. We've had no problems
with ours, but that's a pretty small sample.
<--------------------------------------------------------------------->
< Carl Becker, neurotic-at-large >
< Lockheed Missiles & Space Co., Sunnyvale, CA >
< >
< Bus error: next time, take the train. >
<--------------------------------------------------------------------->
schw...@dsm.enet.dec.com
>> Not to start a flamewar, but this legend of the center rail on Super-O track
>> chewing up pickup rollers is, as far as I can tell, a myth. My dad and I
>> have Super-O track on our layout, and have not experienced any problems.
I have a gang car and a Santa-Fe Alco AA (218) with rollers that were
practically cut in half by Super-O track. However, rollers are cheap and
easy to replace, so I don't feel that is a reason for not using
Super-O track!
When I was a baby my dad built a large Super-O layout:
- Three 4' x 8' tables
- 8 remote control switches
- Elevated section on 110 and 111 trestle sets
- Various operating accessories
I recently pulled out my childhood set and found a lot of rust on
the Super-O track and switches. I went to a local hobby shop hoping
to buy some new Super-O track and was disappointed to discover it
hadn't been made since the early 60's.
When I asked why Lionel dropped Super-O, the dealer told me it was due
to a large increase in the price of copper. Apparantly copper became
expensive in the late 50's and this made Super-O track 3 to 4 times
more expensive than O-27 or O gauge. The dealer also mentioned the
center rail chewing up the roller problems. Note that the same dealer
would be more than happy to buy my Super-O track and switches.
He also told me that a lot of "serious" Lionel operators prefer
Super-O track.
I also feel that Super-O is much more realistic looking than Gargraves.
The ties are more prototypical, and they even have tiny rail spikes molded
in. Another advantage to Super-O is the track snaps together and stays
together. You never need to crimp pins or rails together. I do feel that
Gargraves has a good idea by blacking out the center rail.
Does anyone have any experience cleaning up very rusty Super-O track?
I am also interested in buying clean Super-O track and accessories.
David Schwartz
Frank Condelli
In a previous article, ciemcb@manatee (Carl Becker) says:
>Frank Condelli (ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>[stuff deleted]
>: Lionel
>: experienced major proplems with its introduction of Super-0 due in part to
>: highly defective switch mecanisms, and the skinny center "rail" chewing up
>: the center pick up roller on engines and rolling stock.
>[stuff deleted]
>
>Not to start a flamewar, but this legend of the center rail on Super-O track
>chewing up pickup rollers is, as far as I can tell, a myth. My dad and I
>have Super-O track on our layout, and have not experienced any problems.
>The track, and the trains that run on it, were bought new in the '50s, and
>have been run regularly ever since. The wear and tear on this equipment
>is no different from trains running on tubular O-gauge or Gargraves track
>(yes, we use all 3). Also, Fred Severson at QSI has an extensive layout
>of all Super-O, and claims to have no problems with wear on the pickup
>rollers. Fred bends the Super-O curves to a wider radius when he needs
>one: he likes the look of Super-O so much he'd rather do that than go to
>Gargraves!
>
>As far as the switch mechanisms: that's a new one on me. We've had no problems
>with ours, but that's a pretty small sample.
>
><--------------------------------------------------------------------->
>< Carl Becker, neurotic-at-large >
>< Lockheed Missiles & Space Co., Sunnyvale, CA >
>< >
>< Bus error: next time, take the train. >
><--------------------------------------------------------------------->
>
Carl no flame taken. Thanks for your input. I actually do not have any
first hand experience with the Super-0 track. I was just sending along
information other Lionel operators around here have passed to me. I'm a
Gargraves man myself. I like it a lot but do like the look of Super-0
also. It seems to be a matter of preference and ease of availbility of
the Super-0 track .
stum...@acs.eku.edu
Do you want super "o'track then call Mike Gardner at Eastern Kentucky
University and I will Get all You Want 1-606-622-3725 at a great price
If I am not in leave message on machine