KATO RS2 'Dime A Dozen?'
Joel Meers
dealers were complaining about concerns about supply, and that they were
all spoken for etc. etc.
I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
sale. They were going for 80.00, then I found them for 70.00, and then I
found some for 65.00. Interesting thing was, I still didn't see anyone
buying any!
I was at a show up here in Canada, and they were in good supply here
too. Only difference is they were trying to get 145.00 CDN. Guess what,
nobody was buying them here either!
Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
production and inflate prices, or should I have grabbed them all up when
they were 'A Dime A Dozen' ????
john a dalton
...well, you don't see me buying any...the "limited production"
mentality escapes me for some reason...maybe it's because i remember
when the only thing that stood netween you and biscuits was a 58-cent
bag of flour...when they make enough so everybody that wants one can
have one and at a "fair price for value received", we'll be loading up
the truck...
...as the editor of a respected toy magazine said, "there's something
wrote with a system where 70% of the sales are between vendors"...
...big john... :))
Curt Mc
>
> I was anticipating the Kato RS2s this past summer, and all the
> dealers were complaining about concerns about supply, and that they were
> all spoken for etc. etc.
> I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
> sale. They were going for 80.00, then I found them for 70.00, and then I
> found some for 65.00. Interesting thing was, I still didn't see anyone
> buying any!
> I was at a show up here in Canada, and they were in good supply here
> too. Only difference is they were trying to get 145.00 CDN. Guess what,
> nobody was buying them here either!
> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
> production and inflate prices, or should I have grabbed them all up when
> they were 'A Dime A Dozen' ????
No, IMHO it's a sign that (1) Kato might have made an unwise decision in
the selection of a model which has been offered before in plastic (at a
lower price) and which is of an era that appeals to older modelers (who
either already have the previous model, have too many locomotives
already, or remember what model train locomotives "used to cost") or (2)
production exceeded actual demand at the modeler level (as opposed to
that at the distributor "profit opportunity" level).
- Curt Mc (please reply to: bcmc at erols dot com)
Charles F Seyferlich
>
> I was anticipating the Kato RS2s this past summer, and all the
> dealers were complaining about concerns about supply, and that they were
> all spoken for etc. etc.
> I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
> sale. They were going for 80.00, then I found them for 70.00, and then I
> found some for 65.00. Interesting thing was, I still didn't see anyone
> buying any!
> I was at a show up here in Canada, and they were in good supply here
> too. Only difference is they were trying to get 145.00 CDN. Guess what,
> nobody was buying them here either!
> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
> production and inflate prices, or should I have grabbed them all up when
> they were 'A Dime A Dozen' ????
I bought one each of the two types of RS2's and the RSC2 (undecorated)
and after I got them I could mot figure out any road I wanted to paint
them for, I dumped them on eBay. Also, I do not like the way most Kato
engines disassemble, so unless they are a "must" I avoid them.
Peter King
>
> I was anticipating the Kato RS2s this past summer, and all the
>dealers were complaining about concerns about supply, and that they
were
>all spoken for etc. etc.
> I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
>sale. They were going for 80.00, then I found them for 70.00, and then
I
>found some for 65.00. Interesting thing was, I still didn't see anyone
>buying any!
Yes, the Kato RS-2s and RSC-2s are still out there. It they indeed were
in short supply at the wholesale level, because dealers snapped them up
in anticipation of good sales. I don't think it's so much that they are
selling poorly, as it is that they are selling poorly for a Kato. They're
going more like an Atlas model or 3rd run P2K would.
Some versions are in short supply. I'll bet you would be hard pressed to
find any undec water-cooled/roller bearing versions.
Peter King in NY
jonny barnstorf
cost it some loyalty base? Local shop here has only 1 RS unit and he's
unhappy it's not moving. TOO EXPENSIVE is the reason (same for the other
kato's in his cabinate) . kato... beautiful models, crappy marketing. You
can't keep p*ssing on the customer and expect him to come back. I hope
Athern does better with it's new line. Would be nice if Athern updated some
of their old shells....
Jonny B
Joel Meers wrote in message <36735208...@king.igs.net>...
> I was anticipating the Kato RS2s this past summer, and all the
>dealers were complaining about concerns about supply, and that they were
>all spoken for etc. etc.
> I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
>sale. They were going for 80.00, then I found them for 70.00, and then I
>found some for 65.00. Interesting thing was, I still didn't see anyone
>buying any!
redm...@sprynet.com
I passed up the Kato and bought an MDC RS-3 instead, mostly based on price and
partly because I got tired of hearing the crap about "limited run, reserve now."
I've been walking past a whole display of non-selling RS-2's at the local dealer
for 2-3 weeks now. The MDC chassis is the P2K FA-2 without the fans and runs
very well. The body shell has good, high relief molding detail. The hand
rails, though delicate, use small guage wire and decent plastic stanchions and
look pretty good. The paint job is basic, basic. Mine is a black NYC in the
plain scheme black/lettering only, but certainly legitimate. No glazing in the
windows or headlights and no lights, so I guess the Kato gives you more for the
money in some respects (but it's not a yellow diode either!).
I suspect that anytime someone produces a decent running similar model, Kato is
not going to sell well due to price. There have been various pretty good to
great RS1/RS2/RS3 models around already even if not exactly as offered by Kato.
The C44-9's sold well because it was the best Kato drive yet against the Athearn
budget job. The SD45's were competing against an innacurate Athearn and
Bachmann. The NW2, GP35, and SD40 ran against no serious alternatives at all.
I also think Kato is hurt by the tendency to ignore phase and road detail
differences in an expensive model when others are accounting for these details.
They have also been sloppy in some of their color rendition, and that really is
a negative in the top of the line market.
David Redmond
jonny barnstorf
redm...@sprynet.com wrote in message
<36745151...@news.interserv.com>...
<snip>
>great RS1/RS2/RS3 models around already even if not exactly as offered by
Kato.
>The C44-9's sold well because it was the best Kato drive yet against the
Athearn
>budget job.
I was so looking forward to buying the Athern C44-9 until I had a look at
it. I was all ready to put my money where my mouth was, and I did. I looked
at the Athern windows in the cab and my heart sank. The corners on the front
windows looked so pathetic and the side windows, what did they do the
drawings in crayon? The rest of the model is ok but the cab! Who did that? A
rookie? Was it a rush job? Well I swallowed my bile and went to the Katos.
Now I have 2 and I still look at those Atherns and hang my head. So close.
If somebody made a replacement cab I'd go with Athern. But I'm not going to
waste my years waiting for a loco that may never come. I've been hoping that
Athern would re-tool it's SD40-2 but I doubt that will happen. And if the
Kato SD40-2 is as pretty as their other locos then I'll give my cash to
them. Athern had such a long time to up the quality of that shell. <sigh>.
Defend it as you might it's still only a so-so rendition even replacing 90%
of the plastic with Cannon. And after putting a can motor in it it is almost
as expensive as a Kato. and they're only getting my $ because there's no
compitition.
Jonny B
the hypokrate
NavArch2
sales. It relly looks like a unit where the designers assumed that because it
had the KATO name on it, people would just buy it, and frankly, I did just
that. I'd posted my own critique early-on and won't bore people with the
details. Just to get some of my investment back however, I sold all three of
mine for $50.00 each at a white elephant table, and they did not sell until
just before closing time....
Bob
Paul Tackowiak
1)I don't need that particular engine.
2)I'm not interested in the roadnames offered.
3)I don't feel the quality is comensurate with the price.
I used to be a big Kato fan, but the shortcuts taken on the SD-45 really
disappointed me and I now feel Kato is truly resting on its laurels and
not striving to improve. IF the Athearn Genisis lives up to my
expectations then my hobby dollars will be going that way and Kato will
slide further down the budget list. In a way it surprises me to see a
Japanese consumer goods company that seems not to be hell bent on
constantly improving their products. Perhaps Kato has some serious
financial problems? If the asian market is a big percentage of their
business, then it would be expected that they too are having
difficulties financing new product development. The unsold RS2s aren't
Kato's immediate problem except that it makes retailers less likely to
pre-order the next engine. That's the risk of limited run production,
you're relying on your reputation to sell a product before it's
available. If the consumers and retailers don't regard you as a
'must-have' item, then you're expecting distributors and retailers to
inventory most of your production. That might be a big problem when you
go to sell them the next run of green boxes.
Paul Tackowiak
Bruce Z. Friedman
change. The Kato company is a well run company that is not out to get
anybody! Case in point, you can find almost any run of the HO SD45's, RS-2
and 2C's and C44-9W's! I still see the ATSF C44-9W's in Warbonnet. All at
prices that average $75.00 - $85.00 @! So whats your beef? Are they out there
because people are protesting? I doubt it. The Model Railroad market has never
been more saturated with new and wonderful product! The $'s are just being
spread around. Add DCC in the mix and people are spending money. Alot of it.
The days of buying lots of Kato's or splurging on that road name because they
like the paint scheme have slowed. We all have to buy smarter, and probably
more focused to boot. I am a very focused buyer and still am having a problem
keeping up with all the new releases I want! As I said in an earlier post, 10
years ago I would of bought a Kato RS-2, today I gotta pass. It just doesn't
fit and I want to use that money on things that do.
Bruce Friedman
Fred Dabney
jonny barnstorf wrote in message ...
>Would be nice if Athern updated some
>of their old shells....
This has come up here many times, but the problem is that it wouldn't /be/
an upgrade, it would be a totally new model. There is nothing from their
old series models- the "U" boats, the GP35, the GP7, the SD40/45 etc. that
could be reused, not even the frame since they are designed to slip into a
too-wide hood.
Fred Dabney, watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub.
john a dalton
...Paul...i enjoyed your post...it would be a he** of a trap to be in
if you were in "limited production" and nobody pre-ordered, wouldn't
it ??..."well, what we do ??"..."why ask me, it not my fault !!!"...
...i've noticed that there must be an awful lot of model railroaders
who don't read (and follow) this newsgroup...this would include all
those folks you see on eBay paying high prices because there's an
attractive scan of the item... :))
...folks who don't know seem to go by the picture...you see them in
the grocery stores looking at a can of cherries...how disappointing it
must be when they open the can !!!...dull color, half water. not
enough for the pie, have to throw in some cookie dough... :))
...big john... :))
john a dalton
>There are some people who just can't let go! They also refuse to see the
>change. The Kato company is a well run company that is not out to get
>anybody! Case in point, you can find almost any run of the HO SD45's, RS-2
>and 2C's and C44-9W's! I still see the ATSF C44-9W's in Warbonnet. All at
>prices that average $75.00 - $85.00 @! So whats your beef? Are they out there
>because people are protesting? I doubt it. The Model Railroad market has never
>been more saturated with new and wonderful product! The $'s are just being
>spread around. Add DCC in the mix and people are spending money. Alot of it.
>The days of buying lots of Kato's or splurging on that road name because they
>like the paint scheme have slowed. We all have to buy smarter, and probably
>more focused to boot. I am a very focused buyer and still am having a problem
>keeping up with all the new releases I want! As I said in an earlier post, 10
>years ago I would of bought a Kato RS-2, today I gotta pass. It just doesn't
>fit and I want to use that money on things that do.
>
>Bruce Friedman
...interesting post... :))
...big john... :))
Paul Tackowiak
>
SNIP
>
> ...i've noticed that there must be an awful lot of model railroaders
> who don't read (and follow) this newsgroup...this would include all
> those folks you see on eBay paying high prices because there's an
> attractive scan of the item... :))
>
> ...folks who don't know seem to go by the picture...you see them in
> the grocery stores looking at a can of cherries...how disappointing it
> must be when they open the can !!!...dull color, half water. not
> enough for the pie, have to throw in some cookie dough... :))
>
> ...big john... :))
One of the purposes this news group serves is to disseminate information
and opinions amoungst fellow train enthusiasts. I always suggest to
newbies that they ask as many questions here as they can think of.
Educated consumers can have a major impact on any industry - to the
consumer's advantage. Woe to the ignorant, however.
Yesterday I went to a "Toy and Train show" that had 300 tables of
garbage and 2 tables of trains. At one of them was a guy looking to sell
G scale Aristo-Craft and Bachmann for full list. It made me shake my
head to think that some poor sap was going to pay at least $50 more than
necessary for an Aristo-Craft engine and get no service in return. I
know it's all Caveat Emptor, but some of the thieves I saw at this show
are bound to spoil a few people's holiday. This used car salesman of a
train dealer almost made me ill with his fast talk.
Paul Tackowiak
da...@erinet.com
>who don't read (and follow) this newsgroup...this would include all
>those folks you see on eBay paying high prices because there's an
>attractive scan of the item... :))
You might have just said "lot of model railroaders who don't read . .
. period." These folks are on eBay paying more for a used item than
the new price it is being advertised in MR. Amazing.
Peter King
>
stuff deleted....
>
>....i've noticed that there must be an awful lot of model railroaders
>who don't read (and follow) this newsgroup.
Given that there are an estimated 250,000 model railroader, and the
number of people I've seen participating here, I'd say almost all model
railroaders do not follow this newsgroup!
>.this would include all
>those folks you see on eBay paying high prices because there's an
>attractive scan of the item... :))
Now there's some people who would benefit from reading here!
>
>....folks who don't know seem to go by the picture...you see them in
>the grocery stores looking at a can of cherries...how disappointing it
>must be when they open the can !!!...dull color, half water. not
>enough for the pie, have to throw in some cookie dough... :))
>
>....big john... :))
>
Peter King in NY
Fred Dabney
>
>I think it's ironic that of all the recent releases, the locos I had
>the MOST trouble finding were Proto 2000 units. The Santa Fe PA's
>were tough on the first run (but now the 2nd is out), and the GP20's
>in Santa Fe were just about the toughest thing to come by since undec
>Kato SD40's. Kato SD45's are a dime a dozen. First round of RSC2's
>in UP dissapeared but now all of a sudden they are at every show, on
>tables for deep discounts.
I suspect it may be a "pre-sold" resistance to the prices, since I know I
have almost never seen a new Kato in any hobby shop but one, and that one
sat for years before the dealer unloaded it.
What may be common in one place is rare in another, and train shows
themselves are few and far between in this part of the country, and when the
touring show comes through town (El Paso) there's almost nothing of
interest- just folk trying to unload beads and mirrors to the dumb
natives...
James Fischer
Express-- "feel mean? We Clean!!"
Andy Harman wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:36:05 -0500, Paul Tackowiak
> <PTac...@usccmail.bms.com> wrote:
>
> >One of the purposes this news group serves is to disseminate information
> >and opinions amoungst fellow train enthusiasts.... <snippity snip>...
>
> ... to an audience potentially as large as a major publication, but
> without the same restrictions <g>.
>
> I dunno if you read any of my diatribe on my Sears vacuum cleaner
> experience (preceeded the lawnmower incident by a few months). Well
> during that time I hung out in a very useful newsgroup, I think it was
> something like misc.household or something, with a lot of discussion
> on appliances. I learned quite a bit... and when on Saturday it
> finally happened, a Kirby salesman came to my door. He was surprised
> how much I already knew about the product. But I almost sold *him* my
> Miele White Pearl cannister. Would not have even heard of this
> product if not for the net. And Kirby does put on quite a show (it's
> kind of the Digitrax Chief of vacuum cleaners) when in the hands of a
> trained sales agent. But with that funnel thingie, I think a
> Dustbuster cordless will probably pass the bowling ball test. And
> forget this dump-a-bucket-of-crud-on-the-carpet trick. Let's see it
> suck up cat fur (fluffy longhair) that has been entwined in the carpet
> for, umm, 2-3 years <g>.
>
> Consider this an endorsement: http://www.miele.de/USA/get_s400.html
>
> Cheap it ain't... but I can listen to Katharine & Jimbo & Tom & Kenny
> on the stereo while vacuuming and I don't have to wake the neighbors.
> This is one very nice and extremely pleasurable piece of gear to use.
> I actually look forward to getting it out, honest. And no, I'm not
> going to clean your house for free....
>
> Andy
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Please reply to aharman at hhcustom dot com
> -------------------------------------------
bpr...@pacifier.com
nava...@aol.com (NavArch2) wrote:
I sold all three of
> mine for $50.00 each at a white elephant table, and they did not sell until
> just before closing time....
I'm looking for an RSC-2 new or barely used, any name, but haven't seen
anything below $95 locally. Any dissatisfied owners out there who want to
sell for $50? I need chassis for a conversion project.
Thanks,
Bruce Pryor
White Pass & Yukon Pictures
http://www.pacifier.com/~bpryor
Narrow Gauge From Off the Beaten Path
http://narrowmind.railfan.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Andy Harman
<"bfriedma"@(nospam)infosysinc.com> wrote:
>There are some people who just can't let go! They also refuse to see the
>change. The Kato company is a well run company that is not out to get
>anybody! Case in point, you can find almost any run of the HO SD45's, RS-2
>and 2C's and C44-9W's! I still see the ATSF C44-9W's in Warbonnet. All at
>prices that average $75.00 - $85.00 @! So whats your beef? Are they out there
>because people are protesting? I doubt it. The Model Railroad market has never
>been more saturated with new and wonderful product!
Dang it Bruce, that's twice in one month I have to agree with you.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that you're a Squirrel Nut Zippers
fan and you've got a baritone sax in your attic.
I think it's ironic that of all the recent releases, the locos I had
the MOST trouble finding were Proto 2000 units. The Santa Fe PA's
were tough on the first run (but now the 2nd is out), and the GP20's
in Santa Fe were just about the toughest thing to come by since undec
Kato SD40's. Kato SD45's are a dime a dozen. First round of RSC2's
in UP dissapeared but now all of a sudden they are at every show, on
tables for deep discounts.
Andy
Andy Harman
Andy
Paul Tackowiak
>
>
> Consider this an endorsement: http://www.miele.de/USA/get_s400.html
>
> Cheap it ain't... but I can listen to Katharine & Jimbo & Tom & Kenny
> on the stereo while vacuuming and I don't have to wake the neighbors.
> This is one very nice and extremely pleasurable piece of gear to use.
> I actually look forward to getting it out, honest. And no, I'm not
> going to clean your house for free....
>
> Andy
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Please reply to aharman at hhcustom dot com
> -------------------------------------------
OK Andy,
I actually happen to be in the market for a new vacuum. How much $$$ and
please don't make this a choice between a new Overland steam engine and
a vacuum cleaner.
Paul
W. Gene States
<SNIP>
> I think it's ironic that of all the recent releases, the locos I had
> the MOST trouble finding were Proto 2000 units. The Santa Fe PA's
> were tough on the first run (but now the 2nd is out), and the GP20's
> in Santa Fe were just about the toughest thing to come by since undec
> Kato SD40's. Kato SD45's are a dime a dozen. First round of RSC2's
> in UP dissapeared but now all of a sudden they are at every show, on
> tables for deep discounts.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Please reply to aharman at hhcustom dot com
> -------------------------------------------
By the time I found out they were available they were sold out.
Bummer!
Gene
Peter King
>
stuff deleted....
>Consider this an endorsement: http://www.miele.de/USA/get_s400.html
>
>Cheap it ain't... but I can listen to Katharine & Jimbo & Tom & Kenny
>on the stereo while vacuuming and I don't have to wake the neighbors.
>This is one very nice and extremely pleasurable piece of gear to use.
>I actually look forward to getting it out, honest. And no, I'm not
>going to clean your house for free....
>
>Andy
>
Yeah, but how does it handle advanced consisting? ;-)
Peter King in NY
Peter King
>
>
>>
>>I think it's ironic that of all the recent releases, the locos I had
>>the MOST trouble finding were Proto 2000 units. The Santa Fe PA's
>>were tough on the first run (but now the 2nd is out), and the GP20's
>>in Santa Fe were just about the toughest thing to come by since undec
>>Kato SD40's. Kato SD45's are a dime a dozen. First round of RSC2's
>>in UP dissapeared but now all of a sudden they are at every show, on
>>tables for deep discounts.
>
>
I
>have almost never seen a new Kato in any hobby shop but one, and that
one
>sat for years before the dealer unloaded it.
>
I think what's happening is that some dealers are panicking. They're used
to Katos selling out in days. The RSC-2 has been out for about 3 months,
the RS-2 about 2. So, the dumping begins. After 3 months? Granted, cash
flow is important, but I think it's a little early to begin dumping
product like this.
Now in Fred's example of a loco sitting around for years, THAT's time to
drop the price!
Peter King in NY
Demetre Argiro
. . . . . I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
> sale. . . . .. Guess what, nobody was buying them. . . . . .
> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
> production and inflate prices,. . . . . ????
I don't know, but I sure hope so. One of the reasons that I will not buy
models from Kato is the artificially high prices they create by their
"limited production" method of marketing.
The other is the way Kato and some of the others (e.g. Lifelike) try to
force me to buy my whole locomotive fleet at a single purchase. If you
don't buy all ten of your RS2's today you'll never have another chance
to get them. Well Cuz, I ain't gonna plop down a thousand dollars for
a box of toy trains today or any other day. Now, I will buy them one at
a time until I have all ten, but not all at once. It's a hobby, not an
obsession. I would LOVE to have a whole case of RS2's I model GM&O
and they had 'em everywhere in Mississippi and Alabama.
If Kato and the others would operate like Athearn and MDC They could
sell me and a lot of others much more than they do now- which is nothing.
Just remember this:
You're the one who HAS the money.
The seller is the one who WANTS the money.
Make him give you what you want on your terms or else KEEP the money.
Try it. It really does work.
As long as we allow the vendors to dictate terms and conditions
we will all continue to dance to their music like so many marionettes on strings.
MHintz1136
>
>> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
>> production and inflate prices,. . . . . ????
Or maybe, it was just a poor choice of models...
There's a reason no one has done them before (except the old AHM/Model Power
one, that was train set quality at best)
Why hasn't someone done a C430 lately? Or an RS32 or RS36? Or the Ingalls
Shipbuilding unit? Or an SDL39? Or plastic steam engines specifically for
every railroad? There's lots of stuff out there that there's a demand for, but
not enough to justify a manufacturer sticking their neck out for...
Marty
Fred Dabney
>
>The other is the way Kato and some of the others (e.g. Lifelike) try to
>force me to buy my whole locomotive fleet at a single purchase. If you
>don't buy all ten of your RS2's today you'll never have another chance
>to get them. Well Cuz, I ain't gonna plop down a thousand dollars for
>a box of toy trains today or any other day. Now, I will buy them one at
>a time until I have all ten, but not all at once. It's a hobby, not an
>obsession. I would LOVE to have a whole case of RS2's I model GM&O
>and they had 'em everywhere in Mississippi and Alabama.
I rather suspect they will assume that because the models aren't selling,
they misread their surveys and made too many, thus producing even fewer of
whatever they run next, or abandon the US market altogether. From what I
know of their business prctices, they cannot possibly lower prices.
That would be an admission they've been charging too much in the first
place. I don't care what they produce next, if it costs any more than a new
Genesis, I'm not going to buy any.
I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
of the North American market altogether.
Fred Dabney, watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub.
C.L.Zeni
>
> > Guess what, nobody was buying them. . . . . .
> >
> >> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
> >> production and inflate prices,. . . . . ????
>
> Or maybe, it was just a poor choice of models...
>
> There's a reason no one has done them before (except the old AHM/Model Power
> one, that was train set quality at best)
>
> Why hasn't someone done a C430 lately? Or an RS32 or RS36? Or the Ingalls
> Shipbuilding unit?
Ah, but your wishes are to be answered! There was an announcement on
the SEMRA list that there will be an Ingalls unit done in resin this
year! As a Seaboard modeler, I just gotta have one simply for the weird
factor...
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html
jonny barnstorf
Fred Dabney wrote in message <76ol0g$hr$1...@bubba.NMSU.Edu>...
<snip>
>I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
>of the North American market altogether.
I wish they would, and that Athern and P2K would fill the void thus created.
Sorry Kato, I'd now gladly give my $ to somebody else.
Jonny B
domho
>You mention Life-Like. They also do limited production items. Try
>getting a new SD9. Just like KATO, they can be had at shows and hobby
>shops
>David Lehlbach
>
David,
I don't quite understand the above comment or complaint..."Try getting a new
SD9........they can be had at shows and hobby shops." Where else would you
expect to find them other than Mail order or lying in the street?
HO Proto2000 SD9s are available for less than $30 mail order. I found out
about them from a posting to this newsgroup. $30 plus shipping is the MOST I
have paid for a Proto2k locomotive in the past 2 years and I've bought more
than 100 of them. Ask the guys in our model train club here-they think I'm
nuts-"What in the h*** are you going to do with 70 Great Northern SDs?!!!"
The best part is I'm not even 'into' HO.
Rich Howey
Andy Harman
<Warre...@LeoTolstoy.org> wrote:
>Ah, but your wishes are to be answered! There was an announcement on
>the SEMRA list that there will be an Ingalls unit done in resin this
>year! As a Seaboard modeler, I just gotta have one simply for the weird
>factor...
Did the thing end up on the SAL somehow? I thought it was a "lifer"
on the GM&O. I'm not sure exactly when it was retired, but it did
have a rather long career for an oddball. I think it lasted over 10
years, and ended up being the resident yard hog someplace. There was
a short piece and a photo of it in TRAINS with the headline
"Shipbuilder's Diesel Still Going Strong", but I don't remember the
year.
One thing you gotta admit, there is no mistaking an Ingalls 4-S for
anything else. I will want the resin shell too... can't resist.
David Lehlbach
>
> Fred Dabney wrote in message <76ol0g$hr$1...@bubba.NMSU.Edu>...
> <snip>
> >I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
> >of the North American market altogether.
>
> I wish they would, and that Athern and P2K would fill the void thus created.
> Sorry Kato, I'd now gladly give my $ to somebody else.
Why? Because big bad KATO does limited run? So did (and does) Lionel.
You mention Life-Like. They also do limited production items. Try
getting a new SD9. Just like KATO, they can be had at shows and hobby
shops. Even Athearn does limited production - they and their
distributors (and bazillions of hobby shops) hold their products on
shelves for years between production runs. They don't seem like limited
run products, but they are.
If you are talking numbers, Athearn does produce more models - enough to
stay on shelves for years. KATO and Life-Like and Atlas produce lesser
numbers - so they all sell quickly and they can recoup their large
investments.
It seems as though this argument comes up every few months. I still
fail to see what the big deal is. If you want a model a few years after
they are produced, good luck. You can't buy brand new rear wheel drive
Thunderbirds from Ford anymore either.
David Lehlbach
C.L.Zeni
>
> On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 20:38:20 -0500, "C.L.Zeni"
> <Warre...@LeoTolstoy.org> wrote:
>
> >Ah, but your wishes are to be answered! There was an announcement on
> >the SEMRA list that there will be an Ingalls unit done in resin this
> >year! As a Seaboard modeler, I just gotta have one simply for the weird
> >factor...
>
> Did the thing end up on the SAL somehow? I thought it was a "lifer"
> on the GM&O. I'm not sure exactly when it was retired, but it did
> have a rather long career for an oddball. I think it lasted over 10
> years, and ended up being the resident yard hog someplace. There was
> a short piece and a photo of it in TRAINS with the headline
> "Shipbuilder's Diesel Still Going Strong", but I don't remember the
> year.
>
> One thing you gotta admit, there is no mistaking an Ingalls 4-S for
> anything else. I will want the resin shell too... can't resist.
Nope, never on the SAL; just want one for the weirdness...you know that
the crews just loved switching a yard with what looks like a heavyweight
passenger car with a bubble on top...
Paul Tackowiak
SNIP
>
> I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
> of the North American market altogether.
>
> Fred Dabney, watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub.
> <fda...@nmsu.edu><www.krwgfm.org>
And what market will they make money in Fred, the booming asian market?
Let's face it, they've already discovered that the US can be a bonanza
for their stuff and it's even possible they consider the RS run a big
success if they sold every one in advance to distributors. It's the next
model that might reduce Kato to an also-ran. If the wholesalers feel
Kato isn't what it was in quality or popularity, then Kato will suffer
the consiquences. The Athearn Genisis line might also exert some serious
pressure on Kato to improve because most of us can only afford to buy
so-many $100 engines a year. I passed on the RS-2 and I used to look
forward to every Kato release. Now I look much more carefully because
there are so many high quality offerings by P2K and others. Still, our
problem is a good one to have - too many great products.
Paul Tackowiak
David Ryujiro Olsen
> Fred Dabney wrote:
>
> > I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
> > of the North American market altogether.
>
> And what market will they make money in Fred, the booming asian market?
> Let's face it, they've already discovered that the US can be a bonanza
> for their stuff and it's even possible they consider the RS run a big
> success if they sold every one in advance to distributors.
As lots of people have mentioned before, their US products are a
very small part of their product line - all the hobby stores in Japan,
including those in department stores, are packed with Kato N scale models,
which make up most of their product line. The market in Japan and Europe
isn't doing bad at all, and they sell lots of their N scale models here
too, so they would survive just fine if they dropped their HO line.
> It's the next model that might reduce Kato to an also-ran. If the
> wholesalers feel Kato isn't what it was in quality or popularity, then
> Kato will suffer the consiquences. The Athearn Genisis line might also
> exert some serious pressure on Kato to improve because most of us can
> only afford to buy so-many $100 engines a year. I passed on the RS-2 and
> I used to look forward to every Kato release. Now I look much more
> carefully because there are so many high quality offerings by P2K and
> others. Still, our problem is a good one to have - too many great
> products.
Good point - everyone already preordered the RS models, assuming
they'd love them, so Kato shouldn't have a problem with profits on that
one. I think they're also safe for the SD40-2, because everyone has been
hollaring for a new model of that diesel, but it could also make or break
them. If it's the same relatively low quality shell as the SD40/45 (i.e.
molded grabs and lift rings), with dim yellow LED headlights, in the same
phase as the Athearn SD40-2, I think people will think twice about the
next model. But I've already heard from my dealer that they have about
twice as many reservations for SD40-2s as they expect to receive models,
and the product list hasn't even been released.
With the P2K GP30 on the way, LL is started to cross over into the
2nd generation era that Kato has been doing with the GP35 etc. That's
going to cause some more trouble for Kato, since it's likely that they've
considered the GP30, using their existing chassis...
Dave Olsen
S Sillato
: success if they sold every one in advance to distributors. It's the next
: model that might reduce Kato to an also-ran. If the wholesalers feel
: Kato isn't what it was in quality or popularity, then Kato will suffer
: the consiquences. The Athearn Genisis line might also exert some serious
: pressure on Kato to improve because most of us can only afford to buy
: so-many $100 engines a year. I passed on the RS-2 and I used to look
: forward to every Kato release. Now I look much more carefully because
: there are so many high quality offerings by P2K and others. Still, our
: problem is a good one to have - too many great products.
Actually, this is only a short term "good" thing. Too many great products
in too short a time will mean that someone won't make money and will stop
bringing out new stuff. I'd rather have new a couple new locos a year in
adequate quantities for the demand. That way a lot of folks can afford to
buy ALL the releases.<g>
--
Steve Sillato NYC, LV, GBW & ALCo fan
Forty is the old age of youth, fifty the youth of old age.
jonny barnstorf
batch production. Perhaps P2k is a bad example. I'm not up on the SD9
situation (you're right though, I can't remember seeing any on hobby shelves
lately). I hope they don't do limited runs. Still, it doesn't do the hobby
any good to do limited runs. I think the Kato locos themselves are excellent
and I too buy them. However, it doesnt help the hobby at all to have 'place
holder' products. If a company is going to do a batch of something and then
never again, those molds act as a deterent to other mfg's to produce a
similar model. (except F units...). And to buy all your locos (or cars etc)
in one swig is too much for most people to handle. Then there's newbies, if
the hobby isn't getting any new people then the point is moot. But for all
those folks joining the ranks, how are they to get an out of production
item? I bet I can get an Athern SD40-2 easier than I can get an Kato SD40. I
don't see Athern going under. So does the recouping investment argument hold
up? (not to me) Athern and P2K are heavily into the North American market,
Kato does a small percent here (just gravy?).
And heaven forbid you loose your equipment in a fire. SOL buddy. I like
model railroading, not hunting the known universe for a model. And I'm not a
collector, I'd just as soon strip a Kato BNSF dash 9 and paint it CN or CP
(anybody cringing out there?). So to me all that counts is that there's a
model on the shelf so I can get that 'freight moving'. And that's good for
you, me and anybody else in this hobby. I want the mfg's to make money, all
of them, but I don't like being forced to buy a batch of something because I
know they're limited runs. Nobody's forcing me? Not exactly, if I want the
product, realy want it, I have to buy it or go without. Nice compromise eh?
Gives a warm fuzzy feeling. I guess that's the big deal (for me anyway).
Buying automobiles is more of a fashion statement, fashion changes. True,
collectors do it for passion. For most folks a car is a car and what looks
hot or fits a requirement is what gets bought. For modelers we try to
recreate the prototype. Most people don't buy fleets of automobiles. And for
collectors maybe the rarity of an automobile makes it more collectable. Same
with toy trains, rarity makes collecting more important. But to most people
the ability to by a '57 chevy is less important than air bags, fuel
efficiency, cost. For modelers, we are looking for a specific prototype,
otherwise any loco would do right? To most auto purhcasers it's not that
important that they get a '57 chevy within any particular production phase.
So the lack of a particular variety of car is less important that a
particular model of a loco. Still, I see where you're coming from.
Jonny B
I sound like a broken record and I wish I'd shut up but this subject realy
irks me to no end. I realy don't mean to offend anybody, not even Kato.
P.S. I do appreciate all the wonderful products that have come out. ie) the
cornerstone models, the Athern locos, P2K, Atlas, Kato, All the new freight
cars by Intermountain, Walthers, P2K, P1K, the exciting new world of DCC (as
yet unsampled but will partake), the tree kits from Woodland, lazer cut wood
models, Microscale's wonderful decals and the list goes on and on...
David Lehlbach wrote in message <369036...@worldnet.att.net>...
>jonny barnstorf wrote:
>>
>> Fred Dabney wrote in message <76ol0g$hr$1...@bubba.NMSU.Edu>...
>> <snip>
>> >I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling
out
>> >of the North American market altogether.
>>
David Redmond
the modelling community because you can usually, or at least sooner or
later, buy almost everything they make. The heart of the problem is,
as stated, the "never again" position. Even the P2K E-8's, which
were vastly overproduced and a glut on the market, can hardly be found
in, for example, Santa Fe, nor can a CB&Q SD-7 "blackbird." P2K has
had a wonderful run through a whole history of first generation
diesels and is now entering 2nd generation with the GP20 and GP30, but
what if you were new, or couldn't afford it, or want to expand your
roster and you want a certain FA-2, or a GP-18, or E-8's, E-7's,
SD-7's, etc. Well, you're screwed because you didn't jump in when you
could with a couple thousand dollars worth of purchases to protect
yourself against what you might want a few years in the future and you
end up with more stuff than you can ever run because if you don't you
won't ever. You better collect a passle of those Stewart FT's as
well, because eventually they will be gone and nobody knows if they
will be re-run or not. Too bad you didn't pick up those ER Sharks in
Pennsy too as those are probably gone already never to be seen again.
Lovely ain't it?
Before anybody yells at me I will plug in the other side of this
discussion which is:
The manufacturers have given us hobbyists a wealth of products in
variety and quality never seen before in the hobby.
The manufacturers have responded to the desire for quality products,
good running power trains, detail, and authenticity to an admirable
and unprecedented degree.
The manufacturers are accomplishing this compatable with making a good
business for themselves, so everybody wins.
The manufacturers are making a good faith effort to choose good
trade-offs for us and for them. Would you rather Kato had not
produced the SD-45 or RS-2 at all, or produce the one they did.
Should P2K rerun the BL, FA, SD units and not do the GP-30? Should
Stewart re-run the F units or give it up to Athearn and Intermountain
and Highliners and do something new that nobody has done yet?
How does Athearn manage "continuous" supply and what is given up by
doing so -- after all "continuous" means you can still buy U-boats and
SD-45's with innaccurate dimensions -- is that good?
Ramble off.
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Andy Harman
wrote:
>I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
>of the North American market altogether.
I think it's obvious that Kato has the *ability* to pull out of the
western market altogether, but I don't see any present conditions
which would compell them to do so. Kato USA seems to have been highly
profitable since day one, and as someone pointed out, piles of RS2's
and SD45's at GATS shows don't hurt Kato a bit. They got their money
quite some time ago, it's now someone else's problem.
Now if dealers who feel they got "stuck" start toning down their Kato
orders next time, that could have an impact. But the bottom line is
the guys who are dumping Kato right now at near cost are short
sighted. They probably don't have much cash reserve and they are just
trying to get their money back quickly. The smart money - at least
from the hobby point of view because IMO the truly smart money
wouldn't be treating toys as investments - is sitting on the Katos.
Think about it: the RS2, and *especially* the RSC2 are not likely to
be re-run. There is a perception of a glut right now, but this is due
to the 2nd wave phenomenon. The first wave of them sold out VERY
quickly. I didn't even *see* any UP RSC2's when they first arrived on
the scene! I even saw comments on the net about not being able to get
them. Then after the RS2's hit, and Xmas season comes along...
suddenly almost everybody at the train show has 'em. Not in stacks,
but they are not hard to come by and not being trumped up in the
price. I think a large number of traveling dealers held back half
their stock for round two... since Kato now sells out a run within a
few days of announcement, all of the purchasing decisions have to be
made up front and very quickly. I think the holdouts dumped in a
panic this time once word got out that plenty were out there.
The other thing that will have an impact on Kato is the upward spiral
from Proto 2000 and Athearn Genesis, and Kato's stagnation in terms of
shell detail, accuracy, and options. Kato has begun to wobble just a
little in the position of supremacy; just 2-3 years ago they went full
bore with their Dash 9 up against Athearn and still sold out the run,
even issued a second run and sold it out! But now they seem to have
taken a flanking maneuver; they are no longer the company that makes
whatever they want with cheerful disregard for everyone else. Their
decision to do an SD40-2 instead of a GP30, which IMO had long been on
the slate, seems to be a choice to pick on a weaker opponent. Not
that Athearn is weak, but the SD40-2 is 15 years old and showing it;
the market potential is unlimited for SD40-2's, but that's the same as
with the GP30's. But with the SD40-2 they aren't up against a brand
new tool from Proto 2000 that will likely be sharper, finer, and more
accurate than Kato could pull off using their present methods. There
had not been much talk from manufacturers about re-hashing the SD40-2,
and I think Kato figured out there was a slot there before anyone else
did, which is why the early announcement nearly a year ahead of the
model's projected delivery. Kato will sell a bunch of HO SD40-2's but
the real slayer will be when they finally do it in N scale. If they
can solve some of the interesting engineering issues, and it is of the
same caliber as other Kato N locos, it will be the hottest item ever
in N scale.
If Kato somehow saturates the HO market for their stuff, or loses
favor up against P2K and the others, or for some reason loses it's
collector appeal I could see a pullout from the US market. But in the
mean time, I can see no reason why they would shut down what has been
a highly profitable venture. Even if they did pull out of the US
market in HO scale, they still are untouched at the top of the heap in
N-scale. They have forced Atlas and Life-Like to build better
products, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty there is no
comparison. There is no P2K, Athearn, Genesis, or even HO Atlas
equivalent in N scale. Life-Like's N stuff is about on par with
Spectrum; Atlas's N stuff is about halfway between Spectrum and their
HO stuff. Kato is way out in front and I don't see anyone really
gaining on them.
MHintz1136
Well stated!
Marty
Fred Dabney
David Redmond wrote in message <3690fa56...@news.mmm.com>...
>I come down firmly on jonny's side on this. Athearn is a true gift to
>trade-offs for us and for them. Would you rather Kato had not
>produced the SD-45 or RS-2 at all, or produce the one they did.
>Should P2K rerun the BL, FA, SD units and not do the GP-30? Should
>Stewart re-run the F units or give it up to Athearn and Intermountain
>and Highliners and do something new that nobody has done yet?
>How does Athearn manage "continuous" supply and what is given up by
>doing so -- after all "continuous" means you can still buy U-boats and
>SD-45's with innaccurate dimensions -- is that good?
Depends. By far the majority of model railroad hobbyists care neither to
spend the money on a Kato, nor the effort and money on an RPP shell, getting
all the detail parts together, cobbling up a drive, etc. At least Athearn's
can be bought in a box, more-or-less ready to run, spares will probably
always be available (and of all models, probably the least likely to need
them in normal service) and if you decide you need another in two years,
there they are.
I won't buy any more of Athearn's fat body models, but I'm not everybody.
Bruce Z. Friedman
think were all afraid! I say we give this dude a standing ovation! Your the
winner hands down! Anyone else bought more then 100 units of any one model?!
Maybe Northlanz!
Bruce Friedman
domho wrote:
> >
> >You mention Life-Like. They also do limited production items. Try
> >getting a new SD9. Just like KATO, they can be had at shows and hobby
Bruce Z. Friedman
next question.
Hey Andy? Any news on the upcoming HO Kato SD40-2? When will they atleast
announce the phase and road names?! I hope alot of these people really boycott
this model. That would really help. The SD40-2 ain't gonna be no stinkin RS-2,
RS2C! Bring it on! Image a Kato SD40-2!!! America's Diesel! I can't wait!
Yahooo!
Bruce Friedman
jonny barnstorf
David I read your post and I have to admit I nodded my head in agreement
through most of it. I still prefer Athern's way and I'll try to gnash my
teeth about limited run more quietly ;-). If I'm smart I'll shut up about it
all together. And you know limited run wouldn't burn me if i knew somebody
else would make the model within a reasonable time anyway. sigh...
>Yes, perhaps tooling sitting unused might deter other manufacturers from
>doing a given model.
bingo! bingo! bingo!
>But would you invest tons of money in building an
>SD45 from the ground up, even if (hypothetically) the KATO models could
>never reappear??
If that's what I did for a living and I believed that the market would make
my investment fruitful, sure. The real slimy thing that I bet realy deters
mfgs is waiting till the other guy is just about to release a model then
flood the market with your own version. That realy shows some character (or
about the character). BTW I spend $ on compilers and books to advance my
livelyhood.
>You would think long and hard about that. You might
>recoup your investment over the course of several years. Talk to people
>who self-publish their books about this - it is a nasty and stressful
>situation - waiting to break even and finally make money. Point being,
>many manufacturers have tooling sitting still and products not readily
>available. So what?
well, that's part of the business. If you're getting into manufacturing
(anything) you'll have to invest $ in it. In the end it's up to the
manufacturer, (should I take a que from that?)
Perhaps I'm being selfish, or some other fish.
Jonny B
P.S. I hope you're having as much fun with your SD45's as I am with my
SD40's. Bring on the SD40-2's! Am I a hypocrate or what :-) Actually I'll
get some Atherns and go the Athern/Cannon route as well. If you do CP Rail
you can't get too many SD40-2's. Has anybody seen the CP Rail SD90's?
Cooooollllll ! ! ! Big diesels are so...gnarly dude!
David Lehlbach
>
> All good points David and well taken. But limited run is different from
> batch production. Perhaps P2k is a bad example. I'm not up on the SD9
> situation (you're right though, I can't remember seeing any on hobby shelves
> lately). I hope they don't do limited runs. Still, it doesn't do the hobby
> any good to do limited runs. I think the Kato locos themselves are excellent
> and I too buy them. However, it doesnt help the hobby at all to have 'place
> holder' products. If a company is going to do a batch of something and then
> never again, those molds act as a deterent to other mfg's to produce a
> similar model.
Yes, perhaps tooling sitting unused might deter other manufacturers from
doing a given model. But would you invest tons of money in building an
SD45 from the ground up, even if (hypothetically) the KATO models could
never reappear?? You would think long and hard about that. You might
recoup your investment over the course of several years. Talk to people
who self-publish their books about this - it is a nasty and stressful
situation - waiting to break even and finally make money. Point being,
many manufacturers have tooling sitting still and products not readily
available. So what?
(except F units...). And to buy all your locos (or cars etc)
> in one swig is too much for most people to handle. Then there's newbies, if
> the hobby isn't getting any new people then the point is moot. But for all
> those folks joining the ranks, how are they to get an out of production
> item? I bet I can get an Athern SD40-2 easier than I can get an Kato SD40.
Of course you can the Athearn easier! And you can get an Athearn SD40-2
better than a Con-Cor or Atlas GP40, Life-Like BL2s or FAs or GP18s or
GP9s, or Atlas U33Cs, etc. You get the point. I just still can't see
how limited run hurts the hobby. Newcomers don't generally buy KATO
products - that is not the market they are really after. If you model a
railroad that needs RS2s, then you need to buy them now or forever hold
your peace.
I
> don't see Athern going under. So does the recouping investment argument hold
> up? (not to me) Athern and P2K are heavily into the North American market,
> Kato does a small percent here (just gravy?).
True, KATO does not seem to be in a hurry to produce any more than one
diesel per year. And Athearn is not close to going under. It should be
noted that they are sitting on very old tooling that has paid for itself
multiple times. They have also not hesitated to raise prices recently.
Nothing against Athearn, and maybe the prices were low, but the product
by today's standards is behind the times.
>
> And heaven forbid you loose your equipment in a fire. SOL buddy.
You are right about that. That is one very bad thing about limited run
items - probably the most compelling. Stamps, Beanie Babies, etc. would
put you in the same situation if destroyed by fire though. You live
with it and collect insurance money, I guess.(?)
I like
> model railroading, not hunting the known universe for a model. And I'm not a
> collector, I'd just as soon strip a Kato BNSF dash 9 and paint it CN or CP
> (anybody cringing out there?). So to me all that counts is that there's a
> model on the shelf so I can get that 'freight moving'. And that's good for
> you, me and anybody else in this hobby. I want the mfg's to make money, all
> of them, but I don't like being forced to buy a batch of something because I
> know they're limited runs. Nobody's forcing me? Not exactly, if I want the
> product, realy want it, I have to buy it or go without. Nice compromise eh?
> Gives a warm fuzzy feeling. I guess that's the big deal (for me anyway).
I agree that having to buy products when new can be stressful - I don't
like to load these messages with personal detail (since it seems more
appropriate to stick to the subject), but I can empathize - I model an
area where I needed SD45s big time and August 1997 was a stressful month
when the KATOs were released.
For modelers, we are looking for a specific prototype,
> otherwise any loco would do right? To most auto purhcasers it's not that
> important that they get a '57 chevy within any particular production phase.
> So the lack of a particular variety of car is less important that a
> particular model of a loco. Still, I see where you're coming from.
Jonny, thanks for giving me some latitude, but the point is made. I
won't go into a beanie baby analogy, but what if you were to come across
dispatcher sheets for the piece of railroad you model (everyone is a
prototype modeler, right?) - that is an example of something you must
buy on the spot or sacrifice seeing it again. The situation is not going
to change. Don't get pissed with me about it, but it isn't. The
manufacturers are making great models and a little money (not as much as
you think), which permits them to bring out more models. Don't try to
fix something that is working successfully.
Good luck Jonny B. and others! You can get a 3.9% credit card from
yahoo. If you want SD40-2s or GP30s, there is an online application....
David Lehlbach
Demetre Argiro
> I rather suspect they will assume that because the models aren't selling,
> they misread their surveys and made too many. . . . . .
> I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling out
> of the North American market altogether.
That would be OK since all they do is screw up everything for anyone else
in the business by having the molds and thus posing the threat of re-running
the unit and diluting market share.
Hell will freeze over now before Athearn makes any Alcos on account of
the "limited production" manufacturers. But they have your money and are gone.
Never to return.
Maybe. . . . . .
Demetre Argiro
> Did the thing end up on the SAL somehow? I thought it was a "lifer"
> on the GM&O.
Yes, Andy, you are correct. The 1900 wore the red & maroon (after 1957
solid red) of the G M & O for its entire service life.
> I'm not sure exactly when it was retired, but it did
> have a rather long career for an oddball. I think it lasted over 10
> years, and ended up being the resident yard hog someplace.
The 1900 joined the roster in 1946 at a cost of $140,000 and served for nearly
22 years. Mostly in and around my hometown of Mobile, Alabama.
Traded in on GP38's, the 1900 was cut up by Pilet Bros. in Chicago
in 1969.
I was fortunate enough to have been around the 1900 quite a lot and have
ridden many miles in the locomotive. It was either loved or loathed by
everyone that came in contact with it. There was no in-between.
There is a little poem from way back in the dim fog of my childhood
that sort of sums up the 1900. Its about a little girl, but you can easily
substitute the 1900 for her. It goes like this:
There was a little girl,
Who had a litle curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very, very good,
But when she was bad, she was horrid!
The Ingalls unit was tougher than a Waffle House T-Bone. One time it derailed,
rolled (side over side) down an embankment, and came to rest upside down in
the woods.
The wrecking crew dragged it back onto the right of way with cables, flipped it
back right side up, set it down on its trucks, whereupon another engine towed
it back to Frascatti yard in Mobile. Three weeks later it was back in service.
Apparently none the worse for the wear. Holy-Smoke! Try that with a SD90MAC.
John Alaniva
Andy Harman
<argi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>There was a little girl,
>Who had a litle curl,
>Right in the middle of her forehead.
>When she was good,
>She was very, very good,
>But when she was bad, she was horrid!
>
>The Ingalls unit was tougher than a Waffle House T-Bone. One time it derailed,
>rolled (side over side) down an embankment, and came to rest upside down in
>the woods.
>The wrecking crew dragged it back onto the right of way with cables, flipped it
>back right side up, set it down on its trucks, whereupon another engine towed
>it back to Frascatti yard in Mobile. Three weeks later it was back in service.
>Apparently none the worse for the wear. Holy-Smoke! Try that with a SD90MAC.
I always wondered why Ingalls failed in the locomotive business. I
don't know much of the story, but it sounds like the thing was built,
literally, like a battleship. And it used their own prime mover too,
not something transplanted from elsewhere. Obviously Ingalls was one
of GM&O's major customers, which enabled them to find a willing guinea
pig for their demo, but it's strange no more were built. How could it
be worse than a Baldwin anyway? <g>
Re: Waffle House T-bone... they slice them so thin you don't notice
how tough they are. A new W-H opened right up the street from me
(which at first I thought looked like a Krispy Kreme, there is a
resemblence) but I haven't stopped in yet. I'd rather go there than
the Frisch's (which is closer) any day. Cheaper, better service,
faster, and they don't pretend to be more uppity. Also more than one
of my friends met his wife at Waffle House. One of them met all three
of his wives there <g>.
Andy, feeling hungry for some chunked n' dashed (or however you say
it) potatos and scrambled eggs...
Andy Harman
<bfri...@dca.net> wrote:
>Hey Andy? Any news on the upcoming HO Kato SD40-2? When will they atleast
>announce the phase and road names?! I hope alot of these people really boycott
>this model. That would really help. The SD40-2 ain't gonna be no stinkin RS-2,
>RS2C! Bring it on! Image a Kato SD40-2!!! America's Diesel! I can't wait!
>Yahooo!
I don't know any more than I did in Chicago, which isn't much. I
think the general consensus is a phase II, for the same reasoning as
P2K doing the phase II GP30... more roadnames, many had both. As to
variations, I assume they will do some (hopefully dynamic/non) but if
it's a solid phase II we can assume 88" nose and corrugated radiators.
The thing I'm most concerned about is the drive. I could use a really
nice SD40-2 mechanism, but Kato kludged the fuel tank on the Dash 9 so
they can and will do such things. I'm hoping for a) correct
wheelbase; b) correct fuel tank; c) correct height; and d) I-beams.
If Kato at least does that much and get's rid of the "beveled
dreadnaught" frame, it will be a big improvement. And hopefully not
the nubs for lift rings. I would *really* like to see Kato do this
loco with separate fans. This would be great for converting to phase
III with Q-fans, or putting DA see-thrus on it without as much effort.
What will we *not* see? Almost certainly no hi-nose, even though they
can be done in multiple road names (N&W, SR, NS, CPR)... the N&W units
to be correct would have to be phase I.
One thing they won't be able to get away with is making 2 left
sideframes like they did with the Flexicoils on the SD's <g>. Pretty
tough to pull it off with the very asymetrical HT-C's.
Andy
Dave Bott
>. . . . . I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them for
> sale. . . . .. Guess what, nobody was buying them. . . . . .
> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to limit
> production and inflate prices,. . . . . ????
Did you check to see what type? I haven't seen many water-cooled versions
left and I see NO undec's in watercooled version left. I see a shelf-load
of air-cooled decorated units left.
Mistake in estimates of demand for specific types yes, but not because it
was too expensive.
Dave
--
Dave Bott
Fan of the Southern Railway
President, CEO, and Gandydancer
for the Virginia Blue Ridge and Southern (a 1/87 scale enterprise)
Fred Dabney
>>But would you invest tons of money in building an
>>SD45 from the ground up, even if (hypothetically) the KATO models could
>>never reappear??
>
>my investment fruitful, sure. The real slimy thing that I bet realy deters
>mfgs is waiting till the other guy is just about to release a model then
>flood the market with your own version. That realy shows some character (or
>about the character). BTW I spend $ on compilers and books to advance my
>livelyhood.
Then there's the classic "Old Uncle Irv" syndrome, where you decide to offer
a model, and simply ignore what else is being done, make it and offer it
knowing that it'll sell and it's the other guy who needs to worry.
PA's from Con-Cor got wiped out by Athearn's, and SD40-2's from GSB ditto.
True, they (Con-Cor and GSB) had other problems which didn't help one bit,
but he was famous for that approach.
Had he been alive, and had Kato announced their dash-9 first, he'd have gone
right on without a qualm.
And of course, everybody stomps on poor Dana Stark and Rail Power...
Peter King
>
>Joel Meers wrote:
>>. . . . . I was at the Syracuse show in November and everybody had them
for
>> sale. . . . .. Guess what, nobody was buying them. . . . . .
>
>> Is this a sign that folks are getting fed up with attempts to
limit
>> production and inflate prices,. . . . . ????
>
>Did you check to see what type? I haven't seen many water-cooled
versions
>left and I see NO undec's in watercooled version left. I see a shelf-
load
>of air-cooled decorated units left.
>
>Mistake in estimates of demand for specific types yes, but not because
it
>was too expensive.
>
>Dave
True. Undec water-cooled units were basically sold out before they hit
the streets. Not enough to meet even initial demand.
Peter King in NY
Guy H Quick III
How come everyone picks on our 4-S? It was a sleek, tough, unique machine.
From what I have seen and read, the interior was fairly roomy. Too bad she
met he fate like a lot of Ingals items, the cutting torch.
Guy
Andy Harman wrote in message <36926289....@news2.one.net>...
>On Tue, 05 Jan 1999 00:46:22 -0500, Demetre Argiro
><argi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>snip
>>The Ingalls unit was tougher than a Waffle House T-Bone. One >>time it
derailed, rolled (side over side) down an embankment, and
snip snip
>I always wondered why Ingalls failed in the locomotive business. I
>don't know much of the story, but it sounds like the thing was built,
>literally, like a battleship. And it used their own prime mover too,
>Obviously Ingalls was one of GM&O's major customers, which
C.L.Zeni
> The thing I'm most concerned about is the drive. I could use a really
> nice SD40-2 mechanism, but Kato kludged the fuel tank on the Dash 9 so
> they can and will do such things. I'm hoping for a) correct
> wheelbase; b) correct fuel tank; c) correct height; and d) I-beams.
> If Kato at least does that much and get's rid of the "beveled
> dreadnaught" frame, it will be a big improvement. And hopefully not
> the nubs for lift rings. I would *really* like to see Kato do this
> loco with separate fans. This would be great for converting to phase
> III with Q-fans, or putting DA see-thrus on it without as much effort.
>
> What will we *not* see? Almost certainly no hi-nose, even though they
> can be done in multiple road names (N&W, SR, NS, CPR)... the N&W units
> to be correct would have to be phase I.
What we won't see - a) an adequate supply of undecs; b) separate fans -
just don't see it in Kato's repetoire of "our way or da highway"; c)
significant improvements in shell/frame detail technology, again for the
same reason. I just don't see them having any motivation to exert the
effort to improve as they'll sell all they can make no matter what they
do for as you noted the SD40-2 is much desired. I'll buy one to high
nose and Southern-ize as there's few locos as handsome as a high nose
tux unit running long hood forward.
> One thing they won't be able to get away with is making 2 left
> sideframes like they did with the Flexicoils on the SD's <g>. Pretty
> tough to pull it off with the very asymetrical HT-C's.
I wouldn't put it past them...:)
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html
"Now Sir you tell me the world's changed
Once I made you rich enough
Rich enough to forget me." - Springsteen
C.L.Zeni
>
> Dare anyone respond to someone that has bought over 100 Proto2000 SD7/9's!!!!? I
> think were all afraid! I say we give this dude a standing ovation! Your the
> winner hands down! Anyone else bought more then 100 units of any one model?!
> Maybe Northlanz!
I ended up with 6 RSC-2s which, as a percentage of that model's
production is likely akin to 100 SDs...
Bruce Z. Friedman
Don't remember the wheel arrangement. Anyways, the Overland run sold very poorly.
Overland eventually offered them to dealers for ~ $175.00 @ (retail was like $500.00)
He bought 20. I think the V&T had 5 of this type of steamer. Is he the winner?
Bruce Friedman
Charles F Seyferlich
>
> Dare anyone respond to someone that has bought over 100 Proto2000 SD7/9's!!!!? I
> think were all afraid! I say we give this dude a standing ovation! Your the
> winner hands down! Anyone else bought more then 100 units of any one model?!
> Maybe Northlanz!
>
Not me. The most I bought was 25 or 30 Lionel HO GP30's that were being
closed out in a Wards or Sears catalog. All BN.
>
> domho wrote:
>
> > >
> > >You mention Life-Like. They also do limited production items. Try
> > >getting a new SD9. Just like KATO, they can be had at shows and hobby
Bruce Z. Friedman
Bruce Friedman
C.L.Zeni wrote:
Andy Harman wrote:
C.L.Zeni
>
> I have a friend that collects brass. Several years ago, Overland did a HO V&T steamer.
> Don't remember the wheel arrangement. Anyways, the Overland run sold very poorly.
> Overland eventually offered them to dealers for ~ $175.00 @ (retail was like $500.00)
> He bought 20. I think the V&T had 5 of this type of steamer. Is he the winner?
Boy howdy he's beaten me...
> C.L.Zeni wrote:
>
> > Bruce Z. Friedman wrote:
> > >
> > > Dare anyone respond to someone that has bought over 100 Proto2000 SD7/9's!!!!? I
> > > think were all afraid! I say we give this dude a standing ovation! Your the
> > > winner hands down! Anyone else bought more then 100 units of any one model?!
> > > Maybe Northlanz!
> >
> > I ended up with 6 RSC-2s which, as a percentage of that model's
> > production is likely akin to 100 SDs...
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html
Caffeine not found - Abort, Retry, Snooze?
Andy Harman
<"bfriedma"@(nospam)infosysinc.com> wrote:
>There seems to be a general consensus that Kato will not "step it up" on the
>new SD40-2. I disagree. I think we will be suprised. I'm ready to eat crow.
>If they don't take it up a notch, it will say allot about them going
>forward.
Well several aspects of the SD40-2 will not be "business as usual".
Not that it means anything re. the detailing or refinement, but the
mechanism can't make use of existing gearboxes or frame setups. The
SD40's porches can accomodate a carefully designed gearbox; the
SD40-2's rear porch will require a different tower scheme and gearbox
arrangement. I'm especially awaiting to see what they come up with
for this in N scale.
They *may* surprise us with some phase options as well, but the
scuttlebutt has all said the first run will be phase II all the way.
Andy
James D Thompson
> They *may* surprise us with some phase options as well, but the
> scuttlebutt has all said the first run will be phase II all the way.
Why? Do they all have rocks in their heads or something?
David Thompson, they could probably put those rocks in the green boxes
and find enough suckers to pay for the container...
Alan Winston
>
>...
> Why? Do they all have rocks in their heads or something?
>
> David Thompson, they could probably put those rocks in the green boxes
> and find enough suckers to pay for the container...
They'd have trouble convincing us that THOSE were limited run.
abw
Frank A. Rosenbaum
Athearns special runs, are paint and detail, not specific loco's. Don't they
use stock engines for them, some that will be available in the future? Even
if not in the specific paint, so one could buy a shell and paint it
yourself?
--
From Frank in White Plains, NY
New Email: f...@cyburban.com
jonny barnstorf wrote in message ...
>All good points David and well taken. But limited run is different from
>batch production. Perhaps P2k is a bad example. I'm not up on the SD9
>situation (you're right though, I can't remember seeing any on hobby
shelves
>lately). I hope they don't do limited runs. Still, it doesn't do the hobby
>any good to do limited runs. I think the Kato locos themselves are
excellent
>and I too buy them. However, it doesnt help the hobby at all to have 'place
>holder' products. If a company is going to do a batch of something and then
>never again, those molds act as a deterent to other mfg's to produce a
>similar model. (except F units...). And to buy all your locos (or cars etc)
>in one swig is too much for most people to handle. Then there's newbies, if
>the hobby isn't getting any new people then the point is moot. But for all
>those folks joining the ranks, how are they to get an out of production
>item? I bet I can get an Athern SD40-2 easier than I can get an Kato SD40.
I
>don't see Athern going under. So does the recouping investment argument
hold
>up? (not to me) Athern and P2K are heavily into the North American market,
>Kato does a small percent here (just gravy?).
>
>And heaven forbid you loose your equipment in a fire. SOL buddy. I like
>model railroading, not hunting the known universe for a model. And I'm not
a
>collector, I'd just as soon strip a Kato BNSF dash 9 and paint it CN or CP
>(anybody cringing out there?). So to me all that counts is that there's a
>model on the shelf so I can get that 'freight moving'. And that's good for
>you, me and anybody else in this hobby. I want the mfg's to make money, all
>of them, but I don't like being forced to buy a batch of something because
I
>know they're limited runs. Nobody's forcing me? Not exactly, if I want the
>product, realy want it, I have to buy it or go without. Nice compromise eh?
>Gives a warm fuzzy feeling. I guess that's the big deal (for me anyway).
>
>Buying automobiles is more of a fashion statement, fashion changes. True,
>collectors do it for passion. For most folks a car is a car and what looks
>hot or fits a requirement is what gets bought. For modelers we try to
>recreate the prototype. Most people don't buy fleets of automobiles. And
for
>collectors maybe the rarity of an automobile makes it more collectable.
Same
>with toy trains, rarity makes collecting more important. But to most people
>the ability to by a '57 chevy is less important than air bags, fuel
>efficiency, cost. For modelers, we are looking for a specific prototype,
>otherwise any loco would do right? To most auto purhcasers it's not that
>important that they get a '57 chevy within any particular production phase.
>So the lack of a particular variety of car is less important that a
>particular model of a loco. Still, I see where you're coming from.
>
>Jonny B
>I sound like a broken record and I wish I'd shut up but this subject realy
>irks me to no end. I realy don't mean to offend anybody, not even Kato.
>
>P.S. I do appreciate all the wonderful products that have come out. ie) the
>cornerstone models, the Athern locos, P2K, Atlas, Kato, All the new freight
>cars by Intermountain, Walthers, P2K, P1K, the exciting new world of DCC
(as
>yet unsampled but will partake), the tree kits from Woodland, lazer cut
wood
>models, Microscale's wonderful decals and the list goes on and on...
>
>David Lehlbach wrote in message <369036...@worldnet.att.net>...
>>jonny barnstorf wrote:
>>>
>>> Fred Dabney wrote in message <76ol0g$hr$1...@bubba.NMSU.Edu>...
>>> <snip>
>>> >I expect to see a downward spiral in production, and then their pulling
>out
>>> >of the North American market altogether.
>>>
>>> I wish they would, and that Athern and P2K would fill the void thus
>created.
>>> Sorry Kato, I'd now gladly give my $ to somebody else.
>>
>>Why? Because big bad KATO does limited run? So did (and does) Lionel.
>>You mention Life-Like. They also do limited production items. Try
>>getting a new SD9. Just like KATO, they can be had at shows and hobby