Ernst Mfg. Regear Kits
Michael K. Perrin
planning to replace the standard Athearn motor with better motors and was
wondering what kind of peformance benefits the regear kits provide? Any
information would be greatly appreciated.
Andy Harman
I found the Ernst kits to be relatively useless. Their gear ratio is
way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and turn
the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what you
want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the higher
motor RPM. The 4-axle kits have so much slop that I could never get
my switchers to run smoothly, we are talking neck-snapping lurch here
that is so bad that cars will uncouple over your Kadee magnets. I
admit freely that I am a fantic about lurch, even the lurch in the
Atlas U33C's bothers me - it can be seen only at a certain speed
range, running light, and I haven't convinced even the Atlas reps that
it exists, but it still bugs me... but these Ernst-geared switchers
ran like Slinky-toys, they were that bad. Didn't have the lurch
problems with the 6-axle units, but I found virtually no use for road
engines with a top speed of 20 SMPH. I ended up putting the factory
gears back into all of them.
A better solution is to select one of the NWSL/Sagami motors with a
lower RPM range. This will slow an Athearn down considerably, with no
gearing changes. My prefered standard for road engines is the Kato
14:1 gearbox, with the Kato motor. The latest Life-Like P2K products
match this very closely (SD7 and SW9) and Overland drives can come
very close... but it's still tricky with an Athearn 12:1 gearbox. An
A-Line/Mashima motor is too fast; the Sagamis are a bit too slow.
Still experimenting.
Andy
Glen Smith
>Michael....@eng.auburn.edu (Michael K. Perrin) wrote:
>>Has anybody used the regear kits from Ernst Mfg. for Athearn engines? I am
>>planning to replace the standard Athearn motor with better motors and was
>>wondering what kind of peformance benefits the regear kits provide? Any
>>information would be greatly appreciated.
>I found the Ernst kits to be relatively useless. Their gear ratio is
>way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
>switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
>SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and turn
>the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what you
>want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the higher
>motor RPM.
>Andy
I too installed a set in an Athearn switcher. With a better than stock
motor and some fiddling, you could make a decent switcher for yard
work.
They are very noisy though and as mentioned, there is a tendency to
lurch. Some say the extra noise sounds prototypical but I prefer slow
and quiet.
I recently sat down to take a in-depth look at the set-up and found a
gear with a tooth missing. I wrote Ernst about it a month ago but
haven't received a reply yet.
Glen
David_Gibbons
take some care in installation. The weak point I have observed in the 4
axle design is that the replacement for the gear/axle units is prone to
splitting.
What I have been doing is taking the stock gear/axle unit (the plastic
piece the wheels plug into), and narrowing the gears by cutting away 1/2
of the gear width on one side. This matches the gear provided by Ernst,
and is much stronger.
Certainly the Ernst gears are not smooth, but they allow very heavily
weighted switchers to move a LOT of cars (45 cars weighted to NMRA
standards) around in a big yard...
Garth G. Groff
and several switchers. I later removed all but one because they
ran more smoothly with the factory gears. A sad waste of money.
The one I still have that runs well must have been a fluke. I
still have a kit for gearing the RDC, but this involves milling
part of the frame, and such a project has a very low priority
since I have no place to run the car anyway.
~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
gg...@poe.acc.virginia.EDU Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Ken Bessler (KG0WX)
>
> Has anybody used the regear kits from Ernst Mfg. for Athearn engines? I am
> planning to replace the standard Athearn motor with better motors and was
> wondering what kind of peformance benefits the regear kits provide? Any
> information would be greatly appreciated.
I just used the kits on 2 Athearn Geeps. Top speed went from 98 mph to
39 mph (scale). Took a bit of work on the inside of the truck frames to
get the gear set to fit so it would not rub on the webbing around the
axle hole areas. It really sounds neat to run these engines together and
hear the motors whining in sync. I find myself lowering speed in steps
because it sounds like "downshifting". NICE! If I were staying in HO (I
can't - space), I would love to put a string of six of these engines
together. The sound would just be heaven! Any more questions? E-mail me.
BTW The engines are FOR SALE along with 14 Athearn cars w/Kadee's......
--
Ken Bessler
Design Services Company
http://www2.southwind.net/~kg0wx
Model railroad designing
Garry Collins
Garry Collins
Rich Coleman
(Michael K. Perrin) writes:
>
>Has anybody used the regear kits from Ernst Mfg. for Athearn engines?
I have installed sets in an F-unit lash-up, and a GP9 and I have been
very happy with them. I have not had any of the jerky performance that
others have experienced. The only 'problem' is that the top speed is
now only suitable for heavy drag freight operations - not high speed
passenger trains (but that's what these F-units were intended for). I
have used the GP9 in yard switching, and it has performed flawlessly
(and surprised a few people with its pulling power).
Some people complain about the noise (and the locomotives ARE noisey),
but I don't mind it. Prototype diesels aren't "whisper quiet" either.
While it isn't exactly what the prototype sounds like, it does give
your locomotives a nice low growl that changes pitch with speed. Some
people like it - some don't.
>I am planning to replace the standard Athearn motor with better motors
and was
>wondering what kind of peformance benefits the regear kits provide?
Ernst recommends in their instructions that if you are going to replace
the motors that you *NOT* use the replacement gearsets also.
I have found that the Ernst regear sets are one of those things that
you either love 'em or you hate 'em (and I know a lot of people on
either side). My suggestion would be to try out a set on one locomotive
before you refit your entire fleet. THat way you can see how they work
for you.
Good Luck,
Rich
Aubrey Woodward
the speed in half. An Athearn Loco that runs 140 MPH out of the box is
reduced in half to 70 MPH. Installation of the kits without bothering to
shim gears will result in less than desirable results. The trucks have
to be swapped from back to front and vice versa on all units because the
main reduction gear causes the drive axles to rotate in the opposite
direction. Lurching is caused from improper shimming of the worm gear
assembly combined with inadequate clearancing of the truck housing.
There is a boss in the Athearn truck housing that must be removed to
attain the necessary side play for the main reduction gear to operate
without binding. This proceedure is necessary on all Ernst Gear
installations on Athearn Locos, 4 or 6 axles. The S D 40-2 trucks are the
easiest to install because the axle gears don't have to be changed. All
other athearn trucks are more work because the axle gears must be changed
with the Ernst axle gears. You must make sure the Ernt axle gear meshes
with the idler gear in the truck or you will experience one or more axles
rotating in the wrong direction.
It is very easy to blame a mechanical device for ones inability to
install the kit properely . On our RR, The Joint Line, we have regeared
over 150 locomotives successfully we don't tolerate lurching or other
shoddy performance characteristics. I have found that with proper
instillation coupled with an adequate break-in results in an Athearn loco
that will run at .03 MPH to between 65-75 MPH top speed , prototype locos
operate very much the same depending on the RR.
If you experience problems, E-Mail for help
Woody Woodward, Tom Holley
FREDERICK W DABNEY
: Has anybody used the regear kits from Ernst Mfg. for Athearn engines? I am
Two unrelated problems. As others have noted, they really do slow the
engine down. This may or may not be a problem in itself, although I find
it works ok for a yard engine or perhaps a small branch line engine.
And if your flywheels are out of balance, you'll really hear the noise
they make too.
The other problem I had, and I don't know if it's been fixed (I bought
mine fifteen years ago and haven't re-sampled) is the compound gear. The
gear that mates with the worm has a second gear cast with it. On mine,
the two gears were not cast on the same centers. (A die mis-match problem)
The effective result of this is the same as an egg-shaped gear. The
engine (depending on how bad the mismatch is) either lurches or has the
speed vary in synch with the rotation of the gear. Imagine swinging the
throttle back and forth regularly as the engine moves. Very annoying.
Since they are still in the Walthers catalog, one can surmise that they
fixed at least some of the problems and are still in business, or
Walthers has a truckload of fifteen year old kits they can't sell.
Things like this are a very serious problem for the maker, since a bad
initial release can cause early customers to continue to avoid the
product after the problems are fixed, and worse, advise others to avoid
them too.
Fred D.
michael ranck
engines with Athearn motors. I think they prvide little or no help
with true can motors. Add weight and they will make a yard switcher
pull down the walls.
Stephen J. Hoskins
writes:
>
>aha...@one.net (Andy Harman) wrote:
>>Michael....@eng.auburn.edu (Michael K. Perrin) wrote:
>>>Has anybody used the regear kits from Ernst Mfg. for Athearn
>>>engines? I am planning to replace the standard Athearn motor with
>>>better motors and was wondering what kind of peformance benefits the
>>>regear kits provide? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>
>>way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
>>switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
>>SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and
>>turn the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what
>>you want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the
>>higher motor RPM.
>
>motor and some fiddling, you could make a decent switcher for yard
>work.
>
>They are very noisy though and as mentioned, there is a tendency to
>lurch. Some say the extra noise sounds prototypical but I prefer slow
>and quiet.
Interesting comments regarding the locomotive conversions. I did a
couple of the RDC conversions myself and was quite satisfied. The
first one, I did only one end of the RDC, as the kits are intended for.
On the second, I did BOTH ends (two kits) and the results weren't that
much better, though it was a vast improvement over the supersonic
prototype speeds achieved by the rubber band drive. The conversions I
did were ten years ago, and last I heard, the present owners both still
run the RDC's I did.
Andy Harman
> It is very easy to blame a mechanical device for ones inability to
>install the kit properely .
Your post was very informative until this point. I can accept your
experience at face value, but you try to invalidate my experience by
taking a cheap shot at my "inability", which you know absolutely
nothing about.
Andy
FREDERICK W DABNEY
: DPA...@prodigy.com (Aubrey Woodward) wrote:
Ditto- the early release kits were not ready for prime time and had
several bugs including the gears cast off-center of which I have
previously written.
As I said, I haven't tried the more recent ones so my comments may no
longer be valid. But the wretched performance of the ones I did try was
not due to any inability of mine to build them. Off center gears do not
work well...
Fred D.
Garth G. Groff
My unfortunate experiences with the Ernst gears are just the opposite
of what you suggest. The one engine I have that runs smoothly with
the Ernst gears is one of the earliest that I did back in 1980 or so.
My more recent conversions (two years back) were dismal failures. Out
of fairness, the good running unit was only one of several from the
early era. The rest ran as badly as the more recent ones.
Ken Bessler (KG0WX)
> The other problem I had, and I don't know if it's been fixed (I bought
> mine fifteen years ago and haven't re-sampled) is the compound gear. The
> gear that mates with the worm has a second gear cast with it. On mine,
> the two gears were not cast on the same centers. (A die mis-match problem)
> The effective result of this is the same as an egg-shaped gear. The
> engine (depending on how bad the mismatch is) either lurches or has the
> speed vary in synch with the rotation of the gear. Imagine swinging the
> throttle back and forth regularly as the engine moves. Very annoying.
I just installed the system in two locos. No such problem (I guess they got a
new die)........................
Louis F. Papineau
aha...@one.net (Andy Harman) wrote:
>I found the Ernst kits to be relatively useless. Their gear ratio is
>way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
>switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
>SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and turn
>the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what you
>want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the higher
>motor RPM.
Andy, you've got it wrong. The motor RPM is the same as before. In
any DC motor, (permanent magnet, series, etc.) the voltage applied to
the motor determines the speed at which it turns. That is why a motor
is rated in rpms per volt (or volts per 1000 rpm, or whatever).
Unless you switched to a different voltage supply, you should be at
what you started with (12 volts I assume).
The reason for the increased vibration is because you have more gears
turning that have slop (not to say that there is slop in just Ernst
gears, but in all gears).
Lou (Soo) Papineau
New Haven Society of Model Engineers
Celebrating 64 Years of Model Railroading
Mike Sloane
The Athearn engines that I converted to Ernst gearing are a little more
noisy than before, but the slower speed and better control make up for
it. I LIKE the slower speed, as it seems more realistic for the
down-at-the-heels '60s East coast railroad that I model. I did find that
some careful cleaning and fine tuning went a long way to improving the
noies and performance. I am especially happy with the the RDC and
Hustler conversions - anything is better than rubber band drive!
Mike Sloane
Garry Collins
Notwithstanding Ernst's advise to not replace the Athearn motor,I did
replace my SW1 motor with a NWSL and it did run much quieter and with
less vibration.
Ken Bessler (KG0WX)
Louis F. Papineau wrote:
>
> aha...@one.net (Andy Harman) wrote:
>
> >I found the Ernst kits to be relatively useless. Their gear ratio is
> >way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
> >switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
> >SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and turn
> >the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what you
> >want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the higher
> >motor RPM.
>
> Andy, you've got it wrong. The motor RPM is the same as before. In
> any DC motor, (permanent magnet, series, etc.) the voltage applied to
> the motor determines the speed at which it turns. That is why a motor
> is rated in rpms per volt (or volts per 1000 rpm, or whatever).
> Unless you switched to a different voltage supply, you should be at
> what you started with (12 volts I assume).
>
> The reason for the increased vibration is because you have more gears
> turning that have slop (not to say that there is slop in just Ernst
> gears, but in all gears).
>
> Lou (Soo) Papineau
> New Haven Society of Model Engineers
> Celebrating 64 Years of Model Railroading
I think you mis-understood Andy. I had 2 Athearn geeps and due to the gearing
changes, it required higher RPM from the motor for a given speed. Since most
of us run between 20-35 mph with these gears, this means that the motors are
really screaming!
I found this sound quite pleasing because it reminded me of dynamic brake
sounds. This effect really stands out when you get 3 or 4 regeared locos
running together.
As far as the quality of the gears, I'd give 'em a 6. With a little tuning
and patience they work just fine. I tested the assembled trucks by pushing
them (just the trucks) from behind with another geep. When the gears would
turn, I knew I had done enough. I also used an ammeter on the finished
engines to check the motors effort..........
Matt Frahm
Has anyone here used the Ernst kit for an Athearn hustler?
I have one I freelanced into a neat little engine... but rubber band
transmissions just don't cut it.
--
Matthew J. Frahm_________________________________________________________
Stillwater, Minnesota mailto:mfr...@winternet.com
Business Administration Undergraduate http://www.winternet.com/~mfrahm/
"You can't have your cake and let your neighbor eat it too."
Andy Harman
war...@mailhost.iconn.net (Louis F. Papineau) wrote:
>Andy, you've got it wrong. The motor RPM is the same as before. In
>any DC motor, (permanent magnet, series, etc.) the voltage applied to
>the motor determines the speed at which it turns.
No I don't have it wrong. You read it wrong. In order to attain
anything like track speed with an Ernst gear kit in place, you have to
put a lot more voltage out, hence the higher RPM. In other words, if
you can cruise at 30 SMPH at 7 volts with the standard gearing, it
might take 11-12 volts to achieve 30 SPMH with the Ernst gears. Just
a rough example. The bottom line is, at all speed ranges the motor
RPM is 2.5x what it would be with the standard gearing. Of course the
idea with Ernst gears is to reduce the speed but there are still times
when you might want to run track speed.
>is rated in rpms per volt (or volts per 1000 rpm, or whatever).
>Unless you switched to a different voltage supply, you should be at
>what you started with (12 volts I assume).
No, 0-12 volts variable, of course. If you run a stock Athearn at 12
volts, it will be doing about 120 SMPH.
>The reason for the increased vibration is because you have more gears
>turning that have slop (not to say that there is slop in just Ernst
>gears, but in all gears).
Gears don't vibrate. Off-balance flywheels do, and the faster they
go, the louder they get. I know the difference between gear noise and
harmonic vibration. There is a bit of gear noise from the Ernst box,
but it's more of a clicky-click sound, not the table shaking howl of
an Athearn motor revved up at nearly 12 volts.
Andy
Mike Sloane
Yes - I took a very old Hustler that I bought new in the '60s (whose
body had gotten pretty rough over the years of painting and abuse) and a
brand new one and made a "cow & calf" freelance combo. I powered the
calf and covered the cab area with a "railroad-made" enclosure and
permanently coupled the two units and wired them together. I have not
yet done the cab interior, but the combo runs fairly well (although not
as smoothly as I would like). The advantage of the combination is better
track connectivity and the ability to detail the cab. Finishing the cab
of the cow and adding other external detail to both units is (yet
another) project on the list.
Mike Sloane
Neal Horner
I have an Athearn SD-9 running with the Ernst gears. Overall, I like it:
a) The SD-9 runs up and down 4 percent grades without dramatic changes in speed
at a constant throttle setting (nice for unattended, background operation).
b) Good slow speed control
c) A sort-of locomotivey sound at not too-high a speed.
I use it for slow switching and locals rather than high speed running.
My only problems are with the gears slipping cogs under high drawbar loads,
with this especially agravated when negotiating curves. 18" radius is
really bad as the slim gears don't engage very much as the 3 axles slide
horizontally to get around the curve.
Neal Horner
Garth G. Groff
I found another solution to the Athearn Hustler repower
problem. I got some very low-speed precision German can
motors with Swiss gear heads from American Science and
Surplus for $15 each. These have 1:90 and 1:160 reducation
if I remember correctly. I milled out a wooden cradle
which screwed onto the frame. The motor was mounted in
the cradle with Work-Site silicon caulk. The motor is
connected to one axle by a drive belt from an old Orion/
Suydam interurban (similar to faucet o-rings from the
hardware store). Initially the engine throttled down to
about 3"/minute. I estimated the speed to be about 4 mph
at 6 volts. Above 6 volts the motor whine became too
audible. I replaced one of the drive drums with a piece
of 3/16" tubing which raised the speed to about 7 mph.
With only one axle powered, the engine can only handle
three, maybe four, typical cars, but that was often a
full load for such little engines. My first experiment
was with the 1:90 motor. In two subsequent engines I will
use the 1:160 motors (that was all I could get when I
went back for more). This will probably require a pulley
of some sort on the motor shaft to speed the engine up a
bit. The first engine is absolutely the smoothest engine
I have ever owned. Since the motor has considerable natural
"flywheel" built in, it coasts over dirt and other bad
contact spots nicely.
Matt Frahm
Mike Sloane <msl...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Matt Frahm wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone here used the Ernst kit for an Athearn hustler?
>>
>> I have one I freelanced into a neat little engine... but rubber band
>> transmissions just don't cut it.
>Yes - I took a very old Hustler that I bought new in the '60s (whose
>body had gotten pretty rough over the years of painting and abuse) and a
>brand new one and made a "cow & calf" freelance combo. I powered the
>calf and covered the cab area with a "railroad-made" enclosure and
>permanently coupled the two units and wired them together. I have not
>yet done the cab interior, but the combo runs fairly well (although not
>as smoothly as I would like). The advantage of the combination is better
>track connectivity and the ability to detail the cab. Finishing the cab
>of the cow and adding other external detail to both units is (yet
>another) project on the list.
Cool... I was thinking of doing an A-B-A set now that you mention it.
I suppose I'll also put one of the newer Athearn motors in, too.
FREDERICK W DABNEY
Mike Sloane (msl...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Louis F. Papineau wrote:
: >
: > aha...@one.net (Andy Harman) wrote:
: >
: > >I found the Ernst kits to be relatively useless. Their gear ratio is
: > >way too high to be practical unless you are running strictly a
: > >switching layout. I have installed them in Athearn switchers, and an
: > >SD9 and a U33C. They change the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 and turn
: > >the Athearns into slow speed drag engines. Fine if that's what you
: > >want, but the vibration is much more pronounced because of the higher
: > >motor RPM.
: > Andy, you've got it wrong. The motor RPM is the same as before. In
: > any DC motor, (permanent magnet, series, etc.) the voltage applied to
: > is rated in rpms per volt (or volts per 1000 rpm, or whatever).
: > Unless you switched to a different voltage supply, you should be at
: > what you started with (12 volts I assume).
: > The reason for the increased vibration is because you have more gears
: > turning that have slop (not to say that there is slop in just Ernst
: > gears, but in all gears).
You are both right or, as I would prefer, both wrong.
Discounting loading which will slow almost any motor down from its free
speed, the point which Andy makes is that for a given /track speed/ the
Athearn motor turns faster. For a given /voltage/, the Athearn motor may in
fact be turning faster since the greater gear ratio "unloads" the motor
some. This is one of the things Ernst implies in their ads when they say
you should see reduced current draw.
(Maximum /torque/ is when the motor is stalled- not turning at all but
acting like a simple selenoid. Maximum efficiency and maximum hp are at
different points on the voltage/current/rpm curves, as you can see if you
look at a spec sheet for a motor from NWSL. This reminds me of the joke
about the spherical physicist of uniform density...)
And either situation does increase noise since a) the Athearn motor has a
lot of loose parts- the magnets can vibrate, the shaft bearings aren't all
that tight, and b) the flywheels often aren't true on their shafts.
So, other things being equal, fitting Ernst gears can make a noisy drive
noiser, and some of their gear sets make it even worse. Of course,
tolerances may add in a favorable manner in your case- it's happened to
me too. Not often, though.
Fred D.
Jim Teese
I have a Hustler with a NWSL motor-gear combination (the PDT) with a
metal Cary body on it. Smooth, quiet, slow - and will pull the plaster
off the mountains!
Sure beatsthe Ernst gearing that I took out and threw away. . .
Jim Teese MMR
Matt Frahm
DWC...@prodigy.com (Jim Teese) writes:
>I have a Hustler with a NWSL motor-gear combination (the PDT) with a
>metal Cary body on it. Smooth, quiet, slow - and will pull the plaster
>off the mountains!
How much is a PDT?
>Sure beatsthe Ernst gearing that I took out and threw away. . .
What was the problem with the Ernst gears?
DJM
I have used several Ernst Regearing kits over the years, and though they do
tend to make the model a bit noisier, they are very good at what they're
supposed to do, slow down an Athearn to switching speed. As for the extra
noise, Hey...just listen to a 1:1 scale engine. They're not exactlly all that
quiet either!!!
DjM
--
Norfolk Southern...Milepost 116.6 > Kentucky Division / 2nd District <
Jim Teese
Matt -
I don't recall just how much the PDT costs, but it is in the Walthers
catalogue.
As for what was wrong with the Ernst gearing? IMHO, it's not worth the
powder to blow it up! Noisy, gears out of round, unstable - I could find
nothing about it to like. I'll never try another - once bit, twice shy!
Jim Teese MMR