F3, F7, FP9
Wes Heald
I am trying to model CN in N scale circa 1970. I am converting my Kato F3
A&B to F7s or FP9s. I have the side grilles as a detail part as well as
replacement 36" fans so they can be mounted more flush. The steam
generator details are on my locos. Are they all the same length? How
would I spot the differences? Is there any place on the net I can find
pictures?
Wes
Paul Charland
By the '70s the F3s were mostly retired or upgraded and looked like the
F7s. CN had no F9s but they did have FP-9As. FP-9As were 4 feet longer
then regular F units to house the steam generators, you'll want to
remover any steam generator stacks from the roof of the F-3As or -7As if
they are there. If you have an F-7B you with a steam generator, you
could use it as an F-9B, can't remember off hand but the F-9B should
only have the two outer porthole windows, the model may have a third
porthole in the middle you may have to patch.
For a complete list of CN Family Fs, check the CN SIG Lines web site at:
http://www.trainscan.com/cnlines/cycl/loco/funit/index.html
The F-3s start at 9000. Select an road number and it will take you to
the history of that unit, often with a photo (camera icon).
Hope this helps.
Paul
Jim Bernier
The F3, F7, F9 have the same wheelbase and machinery layout. The
external appearance is what is different. Checkout web pages like
locomotive shop for drawings. Also remember that CN did a lot of
upgrading through the years to old F units and many times what started
out as an F# now looks like an F7!
The FP7 and FP9 are 'lengthened' F's with a 4' plug ahead of the
diesel engine for additional water tanks for the train heat boilers.
Since you mentioned Kato F3's, I assume you are talking N scale.
Model Power just released FP7's - they might be worth looking at.
Jim Bernier
Jason Shron
Jim Bernier wrote:
> Wes,
>
> The F3, F7, F9 have the same wheelbase and machinery layout. The
> external appearance is what is different. Checkout web pages like
> locomotive shop for drawings. Also remember that CN did a lot of
> upgrading through the years to old F units and many times what started
> out as an F# now looks like an F7!
> The FP7 and FP9 are 'lengthened' F's with a 4' plug ahead of the
> diesel engine for additional water tanks for the train heat boilers.
> Since you mentioned Kato F3's, I assume you are talking N scale.
> Model Power just released FP7's - they might be worth looking at.
>
To get an FP9 from an FP7 you have to do a bit of butchering, which is always
fun. The FP9 has five sets of louvers per side, rather than 4. The forward
louver on the FP9 is where the forward porthole is on the FP7, and you will have
to fill that, add a louver, and make a new porthole with a bit of brass tube
behind the louver. All CN louvers are the Athearn-style horizontal slat
louvers, not the vertical louvers like on the Phase 1 FP7s.
There should be no fans on the two forward hatches on the FP9 roofs, so any on
your model should be sanded and filled, and you should put a winterisation hatch
over the rear fan(s)--either a big hatch covering two or a small hatch covering
one. Check a photo of your number. Just don't use a tall hatch like on the CP
units.
Those three details--louvers, lack of fans, and hatch--are enough to make your
models instantly recognisable as FP9s. You might want to add a sinclair
antenna, bell and three chime horn to the front of the roof as well--I have
never seen an F unit in real life with those two big toy-like horns that every
manufacturer feels compelled to include on their models.
CN Fs did not have integral ditch lights until the 1980s. If you want to add
ditch lights, they are big, beautiful in your face jobs--see a photo for
reference. I'm sure Miniatures by Eric makes a casting. The ditch lights were
taken off usually in the summer, so you probably don't need to worry about them.
Regards,
Jason
Jim Bernier
You are going to too much work! The Atlas/Roco engine is a PhII FP7,
get the one without the second headlight and no D/B. Then purchase the
after market PhI louvers and place them over the stock ones(canadian
product used the early louvers). Now just add the correct CN details.
Many years ago(1968), I built a PhI FP7 for the CGW, a lot of work
getting a good tight seam through the grills. I used the Walthers decal
to cover up the seam....
Jim Bernier
Jason Shron
Jim Bernier wrote:
> Jason,
>
> You are going to too much work! The Atlas/Roco engine is a PhII FP7,
> get the one without the second headlight and no D/B. Then purchase the
> after market PhI louvers and place them over the stock ones(canadian
> product used the early louvers). Now just add the correct CN details.
>
> Many years ago(1968), I built a PhI FP7 for the CGW, a lot of work
> getting a good tight seam through the grills. I used the Walthers decal
> to cover up the seam....
>
Sorry I got my phases wrong. You're describing what I did regarding the louvers, but
I think the porthole and louver swap is important. That is what distinguishes an FP9
from an FP7. If my scanner was working I'd put some pics on my web site--it looks
fabulous (if I don't say so myself :-). That front louver is what really does it.
I used a touch of body putty to cover up my seams.
Regards,
Jason
Wes Heald
<3BF2FBB3...@hotmail.com>:
Are you sure this is N scale? are these still available?
Jim Bernier
In N scale there have been two 'non brass' possabilities:
o - Rapido FP7 - pretty crude(can out in late 60's/early 70's)
o - Model Power FP7 - just release(have not run one yet....)
Jim Bernier
Wes Heald
I know CN ran FP9s and F7s What's the difference between an F7 and an FP7?
Also, What's the difference between an FP7 and an FP9?
Roger T & Heather B
"Wes Heald"
>
> I know CN ran FP9s and F7s What's the difference between an F7 and
an FP7?
> Also, What's the difference between an FP7 and an FP9?
Something like an additional 5 scale feet between the cab bulkhead and
the first porthole.
Cheers
Roger T.
Peter
>>
> Something like an additional 5 scale feet between
> the cab bulkhead and the first porthole.
>>
It's 4 scale feet.
>>
That would be the difference between an F7 and an FP7. The same difference
would exist between an F9 and an FP9. The main difference between an F7 and an
F9 (I believe) is the size of the dynamic brake cooling fan. You diesel guys,
please check me on this.
>>
Some late F7s were made with 48" DB fans, but all F9s were made with 48" DB
fans ... for those F-units which had DBs.
Since Atlas's final run of FP7s, those which had DBs, all had 48" DBs (the
first run had 36" fans), the best route to model an early FP7 with DB is to get
a non-DB shell and then add a 36" DB fan.
Dennis E. Golden
"Roger T & Heather B" <roge...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:10063001...@news.islandnet.com...
anF9 (I believe) is the size of the dynamic brake cooling fan. You diesel
guys, please check me on this.
Den
>
John Gezelius
>> an FP7?
>> > Also, What's the difference between an FP7 and an FP9?
FP-7 was approximately 4 feet longer than an F-7. This allowed for a second
water tank for the steam generator, increasing the range between stops - or for
more steamin colder areas. Same for the F-9 and FP-9.
The F-7 had the 567C engine, rated at 1,500 hp. It came with either 36" or 48"
fans. The F-9 had a 567D engine rated at 1.750 hp. I don't have reference
material handy, but I believe that those are the correct engine references.
I have also seen a picture of what looked like a CN FP-9 with two large
radiator fans vs. the four fan arrangement. Perhaps a CN expert can shed some
light on this.
John Gezelius
Orange, California
1lurker2
"Roger T & Heather B" <roge...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:10063001...@news.islandnet.com...
>
Jason Shron
John Gezelius wrote:
The easiest spotting difference between an F9 and F7 or FP9 and FP7 is the
additional louver in front of the first port hole. From trackside, I usually
don't get to see the fans on the roof, so the louver is the easiest spotting
difference.
All CN FP9s had four fans, I'm fairly certain. The differences were in the
winterisation hatches--I have seen three varieties: large rectangle covering two
fans; upside-down-U-shape (big) covering two fans; and a small rectangle covering
one fan.
Regards,
Jason
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Trainman
1lurker2 <1lur...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3bfde702$0$10228$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> The extra 5 feet of the FP7 allowed EMD to put in steam generators.
>
Regular "F" units could also have steam generators. The extra length
allowed for a greater steam generator/water capacity.
Don
--
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msowsun
> radiator fans vs. the four fan arrangement. Perhaps a CN expert can shed
some
The final 10 CN FP-9's were delivered with two 48" cooling
fans instead of the four 36" fans.
Late model Canadian built (GMD) CPR F units had a different
style grille installed on the upper carbody. While EMD went
to a FARR grille for late production, GMD had a style which
is sometimes referred to as a "vertical" style grille. It can be
described as an FARR grille without the two horizontal bars.
Delta models http://www.deltamodels.bigstep.com/ is offering
a special order for these grills in etched stainless steel for both
FP-7a's and b's for $16.50 and $15.50. Ask for DM-335
for the A unit or or DM-337 for the B unit.
Here is a little chart that shows some of the CPR production differences:
freight num<>pass num blt dates dynamic side grille
FP7A 4028-4038 9/50 - 9/51 36" Horizontal
FP7A 4039-4041<>1434-1432 9/51 -10/51 36" Horizontal
FP7A 4058-4063<>1416-1421 1/52 - 4/52 36" Horizontal
FP7A 4066-4075<>1422-1431 8/52 -10/52 48" Horizontal
FP7A 4099-4103<>1400-1404 4/53 - 6/53 48" VERTICAL
FP9A 1405-1415 2/54 - 5/54 48" VERTICAL
F7B 4424-4433 10/51-11/51 36" Horizontal
F7B 4434-4445<>1908-1919 9/51- 4/52 36" Horizontal
F7B 4446-4448 5/52- 5/52 36" Horizontal
F7B 4459-4462 1/53- 2/53 48" VERTICAL
F9B 1900-1907 1/54- 4/54 48" VERTICAL
There is an excellent article in 1978 Oct and Nov Railroad Model
Craftsman which details all versions of the FP7 and FP9.
One thing the article doesn't mention is a little variance in the forward
porthole arrangement on a few CPR FP-9a's. I have a photo of
FP9a #1407 taken in 1954 shortly after delivery. What caught my
eye was the absence of a side louver in front of the most forward
porthole. This extra louver has always been considered a spotting
feature of the FP9a. I also seen a photo # 1408 also taken in
1954 that was missing the same louver. Later photographs of
#1407 and # 1408 have the louver in place in front of the porthole.
This would imply that some (or maybe all) of the early GMD FP9A
production were built without the forward louvers and that they
were added at a later date.
Mike Sowsun
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Peter
>>
The F-7 had the 567C engine, rated at 1,500 hp. It came with either 36" or 48"
fans. The F-9 had a 567D engine rated at 1.750 hp. I don't have reference
material handy, but I believe that those are the correct engine references.
>>
The letter suffix indicates the crankcase compatibility code.
Some 567D engines generally were turbocharged.
645E power assemblies may be fitted to any engine with a block code of BC or
later.
So, a 16-567BC, 16-567C of 16-567D engine may be converted to the equivalent of
a 2000 HP 16-645E simply by substituting 645 power assemblies for the
conventional 567 power assemblies, and resetting the fuel rack.
There were some 567 engines which were made new at the factory using 645
blocks. These engines would be 567Es as the block came from a 645E (all Es are
645s, by definition), but the power assemblies came from a 567.
Naturally, the frame of the locomotive into which this 567E was installed would
have to be setup for the deeper block of the 645.
The D block is different from the C block. It is stronger and is intended for
the 1750 HP rating of the F9, while the C block is intended for the 1500 HP
rating of the F7.
It is not unusual for a GP20's 2000HP 567D engine to be converted to a 645D
with the turbocharger being removed, and the Roots blowers of the C engine
being fitted.
It is less usual for GP7s or GP9s to be converted to 645s, thereby making them
equivalent to a GP38.
Wes Heald
I am trying to model CN's Supercontinental through the rocky mountains
around 1970. What would typically pull this train?
I assume that there was no such thing as an FP7B or FP9B. Was the steam
capacity much larger in a B unit? Would it be unusual for an F7A-F7B-F7A
consist to pull a long distance passenger train such as the
supercontinental, or would it more likely include FP9A-F9B-FP9A?
By the way, what is the difference between an F7B and an F9B?
Wes
dom.de...@prodigy.net (Trainman) wrote in
<pprL7.6$aR.24...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>:
Jim Bernier
There was no need to add that extra '4 feet' for the booster units.
The area ahead of the main generator/electrucal cabinet where the cab
normally was. A large water tank was a standard option for any of the
booster units.
The F9B was the follow-on to the F7B. Basic difference is an increase
of 250 hp. Late model F7B's(ph II) look similar to the F9B, right down
to the 48" D/B fan, and the stamped metal filter grill.
Jim Bernier
Trainman
Wes Heald <w...@cse.ca> wrote in message
news:9162E2DC...@205.237.233.50...
>
> I am trying to model CN's Supercontinental through the rocky mountains
> around 1970. What would typically pull this train?
>
> I assume that there was no such thing as an FP7B or FP9B. Was the steam
> capacity much larger in a B unit? Would it be unusual for an F7A-F7B-F7A
> consist to pull a long distance passenger train such as the
> supercontinental, or would it more likely include FP9A-F9B-FP9A?
>
> By the way, what is the difference between an F7B and an F9B?
>
standard F units equipped with steam generators (the extra little "busy
bits" on the last roof hatch to the rear will identify a SG equipped unit),
they were most likely used too, so the answer to your question would
probably be either one should be OK. Generally roads that traveled through
a lot of mountainous territory shied away from E units, depending of F's or
FP's. The FP-s were more popular on Northern roads simply because of the
increased capacity to provide train heat.
On the Milwaukee Road, the Olympians (Chicago to Seattle/Tacoma WA), normal
power was FP-7A - F-7B - FP-7A or an A-B-A set of E-9's. In later years,
things got mixed up and it was not unusual to see E's and F's mixed
interchangeably in the same consist.
On the Santa Fe, the most common passenger units were F's, (NOT FP's), often
run in A-B-B-A sets.
It all depends on the railroad.
Yes, there were no bananas (I'm sorry, I mean FP-7 or FP-9 B units). When
the Milwaukee Road bought their FP-7 A-B-A sets, the B's were regular F-7's.
The main difference between an F-7B and an F-9B is 250 HP. Externally,
there is really no difference. Farr air grills, winterization hatches,
etc., will vary from railroad to railroad. You may be able to identify an
F-9 by the larger dynamic brake fan on the roof, but late F-7's had these
too.
Mountain Goat
>
>I am trying to model CN's Supercontinental through the rocky mountains
>around 1970. What would typically pull this train?
>
>I assume that there was no such thing as an FP7B or FP9B. Was the steam
>capacity much larger in a B unit? Would it be unusual for an F7A-F7B-F7A
>consist to pull a long distance passenger train such as the
>supercontinental, or would it more likely include FP9A-F9B-FP9A?
>
>By the way, what is the difference between an F7B and an F9B?
>
>Wes
>
As others have noted the FP-9As were four feet longer for increased
water storage. There were no FP-9B units, lack of a cab meant there
was sufficient water storage in the standard length car body. CN
typically use A-B-B-A sets on the Super and the Panorama during peak
season and A-B-A or A-B-B during off peak when fewer cars were in the
consist. When additional power was needed they used 4100 & 4200
series GP-9s with steam and signal lines, but no boilers. These
engines were also had 'passenger gearing' (45/12 I think) allowing
them to run up to 89 mph where their freight power had conventional
freight gearing (62/15 I think) and a lower maximum speed. CN later
had 'passenger geared' GP40-2Ws which would pinch hit in passenger
service when needed but were primarily for 'speed' and intermodal
trains like 217/218. When many of the passenger GPs were on a train a
steam generator car was usually assigned since the GPs had no boilers.
In extremely cold weather (-30F) a steam generator car was often
placed at the rear of the Super even with three or four Fs on the head
end. In your time frame the last car was most often an 'I' class 24
roomette sleeper used as a crew dormitory & overflow sleeping car
space. Also during your time frame I often saw an 89 foot piggyback
car on the rear of the Super going through Edmonton westbound, don't
know it's destination or what customer who had enough 'pull' to get
that car on there.
NP got around the water storage problem for their North Coast and
Mainstreeter with combined water/baggage cars. They only bought 2
FP-7As as power for short trains in Minnesota (61/62 and 11/12) where
only a single unit was required, they replaced boiler equipped GP-7s.