Rough guidlines for when to use 36" vs. 33" inch wheelsets?
Joe Reckner
I'm in the process of replacing plastic wheelsets with various metal
wheelsets, and am looking for an easy way to guess whether a freight
car should have 33" wheelsets vs. 36" wheelsets. I would guess that
most of the modern 100 ton hoppers, covered hoppers, etc. probably
need the 36" wheels, but I'm not sure on other types of cars. Any
information would be appreciated. TIA.
Joe Reckner
Andrew Eakin
mostly told me not to look at prototype, but look at the coupler height for
guidance. Due to this I found it necessary to use 33" wheelsets or I would
have had to use underset shank Kadees to make up for the .05" (approx.
1/32') difference in coupler height. I really can't tell the difference
between 33" & 36 " sets in HO scale. But if prototype is your goal, you
will need to get underset couplers to compensate for the difference.
Also, if you are looking for an excellent Wheelset, I recommend in this
order, Jay-Bee Bennett, Kadee, NWSL, Life Like P2K, InterMountain, and you
can't beat the Walthers line for cost (even though they don't run much
better than some good plastic sets). I have purchased at least 8 sets of
each in my effort to find a good set and the jaybees are the overall best
runners.
Another bit of advice keep the NMRA gauge handy and check every wheelset for
gauge and wobble before putting them on the cars, my experience has been 1
in 10 wheelsets are severely out of gauge and 1 in 50 are unusable due to
defect ( bad wobble, off center) also keep a sharp pencil or "puffable"
graphite handy for lubrication ( not necessary, but it sometimes helps those
stubborn ones).
Yet another piece of advice: Follow NMRA RP 20.1 for the weight of cars
http://users.vnet.net/paulrver/rp-20_1.html . You won't regret it.
Derailments have decreased by 80% since I started doing this.
Andrew
Joe Reckner wrote in message <36389922...@news.cftnet.com>...
Jim Bernier
>
> Hello all,
>
> I'm in the process of replacing plastic wheelsets with various metal
> wheelsets, and am looking for an easy way to guess whether a freight
> car should have 33" wheelsets vs. 36" wheelsets. I would guess that
> most of the modern 100 ton hoppers, covered hoppers, etc. probably
> need the 36" wheels, but I'm not sure on other types of cars. Any
> information would be appreciated. TIA.
>
> Joe Reckner
Your 'guess' is basically correct. The size of the axle and it's
bearing surface are what determine the actual load capacity of the
trucks.
But as a simple basic rule, most of the 100 ton capacity freight cars
have 36" wheels and the 50-70 ton capacity cars have 33" wheels from
what I have seen. Some of the newer 110 - 115 ton capacity cars have
38" wheelsets. These include some unit coal tran cars and grain
hoppers.
Most passenger cars have used 36" wheels from what I have seen,
Jim Bernier
David Redmond
<aea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Well, I asked the same question about a month ago. The responses I got
>mostly told me not to look at prototype, but look at the coupler height for
>guidance. Due to this I found it necessary to use 33" wheelsets or I would
>have had to use underset shank Kadees to make up for the .05" (approx.
>1/32') difference in coupler height. I really can't tell the difference
>between 33" & 36 " sets in HO scale. But if prototype is your goal, you
>will need to get underset couplers to compensate for the difference.
>
It seems passing strange that the advice of this particular newsgroup
would ever arrive at the idea that one should not look to the
prototype but rather to the coupler heights on the models, one of the
most notoriously munged characteristics of the stuff we buy that there
is. It is true, however, that many model freight cars are sold with
incorrect 33" wheels to fit and that 36" wheels can mess up the
coupler height, rub on the car bottom, or whatever. (You meant, by
the way, that the Kadee replacement would be overset shank which
lowers the coupler knuckle to compensate for the higher mounting
point.).
There have been many postings to this question that could be brought
up on DejaNews by anyone interested.
As to whether one should care . . . well I think the difference is
very obvious on some cars, tank cars, for example, and maybe less so
on some other car types. Also use of 28" wheels for those cars that
use them is pretty obvious in appearance compared to sticking a 33" in
there. Rivarossi puts a wheel that is even less than 33" on their
passenger cars where it should be 36" and frankly I don't see the
difference in appearance unless I try to look for it, partly because
the truck is designed to fit and you have to shave and bend the brake
shoes to get a larger wheel in.
Just to jump to a subject addressed in another thread, if we really
wanted the wheels to look right we would go with the correct wheel
thickness rather than worrying overly about 33" to 36."
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Bruce Z. Friedman
solves the height problem. Sometimes you don't have a choice.I would guess that
80% of all new cars come with the right sized wheelsets. Also, most new cars
come with Metal wheels anyways!
Also my results in wheel buying are completely opposite of yours. I just
converted 400 freight cars to metal wheels. Heres my findings:
1. Intermountain - all metal wheel and metal axle. You can buy in 100 and 1000
packs and get great prices. Nice needle point axles and these wheels are
indestructable.
2. Proto2000 - Metal wheel(I think) , plastic axle. Good prices can be had also.
Only available in 12 packs. I'm finding these wheels are not holding up that
well.
The rest didn't pass my specs. Kadee I believe is not a metal wheel and has
plastic axles. Didn't have a smooth back 36" wheelset. Price is OK. Jay Bee -
too expensive and found lots of wobbly ones. Did not look at NWSL.
Bruce Friedman
Kadee -
Andrew Eakin wrote:
> Well, I asked the same question about a month ago. The responses I got
> mostly told me not to look at prototype, but look at the coupler height for
> guidance. Due to this I found it necessary to use 33" wheelsets or I would
> have had to use underset shank Kadees to make up for the .05" (approx.
> 1/32') difference in coupler height. I really can't tell the difference
> between 33" & 36 " sets in HO scale. But if prototype is your goal, you
> will need to get underset couplers to compensate for the difference.
>
> Also, if you are looking for an excellent Wheelset, I recommend in this
> order, Jay-Bee Bennett, Kadee, NWSL, Life Like P2K, InterMountain, and you
> can't beat the Walthers line for cost (even though they don't run much
> better than some good plastic sets). I have purchased at least 8 sets of
> each in my effort to find a good set and the jaybees are the overall best
> runners.
>
> Another bit of advice keep the NMRA gauge handy and check every wheelset for
> gauge and wobble before putting them on the cars, my experience has been 1
> in 10 wheelsets are severely out of gauge and 1 in 50 are unusable due to
> defect ( bad wobble, off center) also keep a sharp pencil or "puffable"
> graphite handy for lubrication ( not necessary, but it sometimes helps those
> stubborn ones).
>
> Yet another piece of advice: Follow NMRA RP 20.1 for the weight of cars
> http://users.vnet.net/paulrver/rp-20_1.html . You won't regret it.
> Derailments have decreased by 80% since I started doing this.
>
> Andrew
>
> Joe Reckner wrote in message <36389922...@news.cftnet.com>...
Andrew Eakin
.05" difference between the 33 and 36" wheels has enough visible impact to
make it worth the while to modify the car so that the coupler height is
correct after moving up to 36" wheels, then I'll start doing right wheel
sizes, the difference with 38" and 28" wheels is so much that it is
necessary to use the right size but 33" and 36" I don't see. Sometimes you
have to sacrifice a small bit of prototype for operation's sake.
I was wrong about the Kadee coupler over/underset shank thing (I just buy by
the pictures on the package based on what effect I need. However, I don't
like to use the Over/underset shank kadees because I have seen a few
problems with the cars that have them Twisting and derailing while being
pushed in the middle of a consist up a hill......don't know why.....
Oh well, If prototype is your thing, then do it the right way 36" where 36"
should be 33" where 33" should be. For ease of installation I just choose to
use 33" as drop in replacements.
On the wheel thing, the InterMountain wheels I had were pre-run samples
passed on to me by a store owner, They didn't impress me too much, maybe I
could give them another shot. As far a Jay-Bees go, when I first got my
hands on them (almost five years ago I think) 1 in 10 had bad wobble, but
just Saturday, I purchased 10 12-packs and only had 4 unusable wheelsets. I
had 14 that were kinda bad out of gauge and I fixed them with a quick trip
to the toolbox and yes, kadee wheelsets are metal with a nice free moving
delrin axle ( the only problem I had was that the point would sometimes
blunt if I were having difficulty putting the wheelset in the truck (read
"Ham-fisted") causing an increase in friction same with the P2Ks. The NWSL
wheels were just too blasted expensive. ($1.50 ea retail)
Andrew
David Redmond wrote in message <3638ace1....@news.mmm.com>...
>On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:14:54 -0500, "Andrew Eakin"
><aea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>Well, I asked the same question about a month ago. The responses I got
>>mostly told me not to look at prototype, but look at the coupler height
for
>>guidance. Due to this I found it necessary to use 33" wheelsets or I
would
>>have had to use underset shank Kadees to make up for the .05" (approx.
>>1/32') difference in coupler height. I really can't tell the difference
>>between 33" & 36 " sets in HO scale. But if prototype is your goal, you
>>will need to get underset couplers to compensate for the difference.
>>
David Ryujiro Olsen
> Honestly guys, not to get too defensive, but if you can convince me that the
> .05" difference between the 33 and 36" wheels has enough visible impact to
> make it worth the while to modify the car so that the coupler height is
> correct after moving up to 36" wheels, then I'll start doing right wheel
> sizes, the difference with 38" and 28" wheels is so much that it is
> necessary to use the right size but 33" and 36" I don't see. Sometimes you
> have to sacrifice a small bit of prototype for operation's sake.
This is one of those things I think where you have to find out if
you can tell the difference - I can see the difference between, for
example, an Accurail 70 ton roller bearing truck with 33" wheels and a
Walthers 100 ton roller bearing with 36" wheels, using Intermountain
wheelsets on both. Some people might not be able to tell the difference,
so it won't matter to them. Wheelsets for me are like truck sideframes -
there isn't too much difference between the Walthers and Accurail
sideframes, but the Walthers just _look_ "heftier" - same thing with the
wheelsets for me (Using Kadees, it's very easy to see, because the Kadee
36" wheels have a flat lip around the outside that the 33" don't).
Bruce - by the way, Kadee does have a smoothback 36" wheel - it's
the one with the yellow cardboard backing, I'm not sure of the item
number.
I haven't had much problem modifying cars to sit at the proper
height with 36" wheels. As someone mentioned, some cars are now designed
for 36" wheels, and I've found others where the larger wheels actually
bring the car up to the correct height when it was originally too low. On
others, I file down the top of the truck or the bolster on the bottom of
the car to lower the car. I enjoy putting the extra amount of effort in so
the cars look right to me, but it might not matter to you.
> On the wheel thing, the InterMountain wheels I had were pre-run samples
> passed on to me by a store owner, They didn't impress me too much, maybe I
> could give them another shot.
I've had great experiences with IM wheelsets - it was probably a
pre-production problem you experienced. They are the best to use in
Walthers trucks, because their slightly shorter axles work well in the
tighter sideframes.
Dave Olsen
Andrew Eakin
Bruce Z. Friedman <"bfriedma"@infosysinc.com> wrote in message
<3638b...@news.dca.net>...
>I try and use the right wheelset that the prototype used, not the wheel
that
>solves the height problem. Sometimes you don't have a choice.I would guess
that
>80% of all new cars come with the right sized wheelsets. Also, most new
cars
>come with Metal wheels anyways!
>
I'm not trying to be a smarta$& here, but who is putting out cars with the
right size wheels and/or metal wheelsets?
I'm really curious, because I purchase mainly Walthers, Athearn and Con-Cor
equipment (not to mention that I haven't purchased any rolling stock in the
past three years) and it would make my hobby more enjoyable if I had cars
with appropriate metal wheelsets or 36" wheels in the first place. (I really
don't like having to make comprimises for operations sake). I will buy other
mfrs stuff if I know the product comes with knuckles and metal/appropriate
size wheels. ( unless the cars cost over $20 each)
BTW, I went through the 100+ plastic wheelsets I have removed from cars with
my calipers and all were scale 33" (approx .379") except some Bachmann cast
plastic wheels which were scale 35" (approx .401") ( and they came off of
two 40' three dome tanks) hmm.......
Andrew
Fred Dabney
>Honestly guys, not to get too defensive, but if you can convince me that
the
>.05" difference between the 33 and 36" wheels has enough visible impact to
>make it worth the while to modify the car so that the coupler height is
>correct after moving up to 36" wheels, then I'll start doing right wheel
>sizes, the difference with 38" and 28" wheels is so much that it is
>necessary to use the right size but 33" and 36" I don't see. Sometimes you
>have to sacrifice a small bit of prototype for operation's sake.
It's one of those things. Some see it and it bothers them, some see it and
couldn't care less, and others still don't see it at all.
It's a lot like sorting screws. I can dump a handfull of loose screws into
an old tray and sort them by size without bothering to use a screw checker.
About the onle ones I need to test are 0-80 and 1.4 mm- they're damned near
interchangable, but not quite.
To me, one of the things that I see is the greater "bulk" of the larger
wheels under a car.
In any event, the first thing I do with a new car kit is replace the wheels
(if needed) then drop the car onto the trucks and roll it over a jig I built
to check the coupler mount height. If it doesn't pass, I work on the car
until it does. If the car drags on the flanges on larger wheels, I swear
and decide, on a car-by-car basis if I fix the car or go back to the wrong
size wheels.
But it's like a lot of things: Many, many things can be distinguished
between two different items when one can't tell about just one. Remarkably
small sizes, small differences can become obvious once you start noticing
this sort of thing.
Fred Dabney, watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub.
Fred Dabney
>cars
>>come with Metal wheels anyways!
>>
>
>I'm not trying to be a smarta$& here, but who is putting out cars with the
>right size wheels and/or metal wheelsets?
Depends on what you regard as "most". Intermountain comes with 38" wheels
on the covered hoppers, but they're plastic.
Outside of that, Atlas, P2K, and the new "Silver" series cars come with nice
metal wheels, and quite a few of them do have 36" wheels where appropriate.
I think the P1K will also have metal wheels.
Knuckles? At this point, I'd still be inclined to go to metal KD rather
than the Delrin KDC designs. Aside from the oft-cited problem of the
springs failing under long-term stress on the coupler's centering springs or
knuckle springs, they also have much thinner shanks than the equivalent KD
Delrin coupler so are more apt to flex and by-pass under load.
They're bound to get it right, sooner or later.