Re: Lionel ZW Transformer Whistle Switch
David Starr
> I tried a Lionel ZW transformer with two 180 watt power packs. The
> indicator switch on the first power pack is dead. But it does provide
> power, as does the other one on which the power indicator works correctly.
>
> Aside from the bad indicator light on the one power pack, is the ZW whistle
> switch actually broken, or is there something about the ZW that makes it
> unable to blow the whistle on this tender? Does anyone using a ZW with O-27
> entry level locos know of any problem or incompatibility with the ZW? As
> far as I had read, the ZW is conventional equipment (though like any other
> conventional transformer, it can be set up to be controlled via TMCC, and
> will be in the future.)
The whistles are supposed to whistle for all transformers. If the
whistle works on your CW 80 and doesn't work on the ZW, its reasonable
to believe the ZW has a problem. Also, customers expect a modern ZW to
operate legacy engines going all the way back to the 1940's. In the old
days all Lionel transformers would operate the whistles on every whistle
equipped locomotive. I would expect the same from a modern ZW.
You mentioned the indicator light on one section is inop. Any
reasonable factory quality control inspection should at least plug the
unit in and make sure it lights up. Since your ZW no longer lights up,
I would suspect shipping damage had occured. Those lights ought to be
LEDs which are a whole bunch more rugged than incandescent lamps.
>
> Admittedly, the ZW is overkill for a carpet layout. But I want to play with
> the concept of insulating track sections and powering two trains via
> separate throttles. I plan to test a lot of concepts on the carpet while
> designing a permanent layout. It would seem to provide for much less
> cussing when I do start building a permanent layout...
>
Carpet running is fun, and you can re do your track plan pretty much
at will. For various reasons permanent layouts seem to have harder to
change track plans. Lionel was originally intended for carpet running.
David Starr
David Starr
>
> BTW, if you, or anyone else, can tell me. How on earth does that whistle
> switch operate? What signal does it send through the track that tells the
> whistle to do something different when all the other cars just get a steady
> stream of power and do nothing but light up, smoke, etc?
The whistle button adds a small DC voltage, three or four volts, to the
AC track power. It used to brighten up the lights and make the
locomotive go a little bit faster. I forget just how the whistle motor
discriminated between AC and DC and only turned if it saw DC. Now a
days I would expect solid state, but that wasn't available in the old days.
David Starr
David Nebenzahl
> The whistle button adds a small DC voltage, three or four volts, to the
> AC track power. It used to brighten up the lights and make the
> locomotive go a little bit faster. I forget just how the whistle motor
> discriminated between AC and DC and only turned if it saw DC. Now a
> days I would expect solid state, but that wasn't available in the old days.
So now I'm really curious: how the heck does this thing work? Would be
easy to see how the opposite would work (AC superimposed over DC): you'd
just need a capacitor to filter out the DC.
Must be some clever arrangement of diodes (selenium rectifiers of the
era) and resistors to separate the DC from the AC. Anyone know how this
works?
--
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trainfan1
> I tried a Lionel ZW transformer with two 180 watt power packs. The
> indicator switch on the first power pack is dead. But it does provide
> power, as does the other one on which the power indicator works correctly.
>
> the radioactive waste car blinks, the I-12 Chessie caboose lights up and
> smokes, etc.
>
> Irritatingly, the ZW was delivered when I have no train to run. The Polar
> Express Bershire is in the shop getting it's smoke system working better (I
> was told it's an issue known to Lionel.) My Chessie SD-40-2 (conventional)
> loco hasn't arrived yet (you didn't think I was going to haul radioactive
> waste with the Polar Express, did you?)
>
> So I placed the Bershire's tender on the tracks and tried the whistle
> switch. I could hear the motor in the tender spinning up, but it couldn't
> seem to get going fast enough to whistle.
Try it at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle...
Rob
trainfan1
> David Starr spake thus:
>
>> The whistle button adds a small DC voltage, three or four volts, to
>> the AC track power. It used to brighten up the lights and make the
>> locomotive go a little bit faster. I forget just how the whistle
>> motor discriminated between AC and DC and only turned if it saw DC.
>> Now a days I would expect solid state, but that wasn't available in
>> the old days.
>
>
> So now I'm really curious: how the heck does this thing work? Would be
> easy to see how the opposite would work (AC superimposed over DC): you'd
> just need a capacitor to filter out the DC.
>
> Must be some clever arrangement of diodes (selenium rectifiers of the
> era) and resistors to separate the DC from the AC. Anyone know how this
> works?
>
>
A DC relay activates the whistle or horn in Lionel Locos. The AC alone
does not lift the armature, a small DC differential imposed onto the AC
causes the relay to close. Very simple.
http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/86/1b/4c26_1.JPG
It can be used for other functions, too:
Reversing(Magic Electrol):
http://www.toytrainrevue.com/electrol.gif
Coupler activation(Teledyne):
http://www.toytrainrevue.com/teledyne.gif
At the transformer end, a disc rectifier is switched in to the circuit
by a make-break action, momentarily, for initial "pick-up" DC current,
and as the switch is pushed all the way, a resistor wire shunt is
switched in over the rectifier to provide a lower "holding" DC current,
and to protect the rectifier from the full current draw of the train set.
With modern transformers & whistles/horns, solid state circuits have
replaced the relay & shunting.
Rob
trainfan1
> I believe I tried it at most every throttle position since I was watching
> for how quickly the lights brightened.
>
> Either way, it should work at any throttle position. The CW-80 will blow
> the whistle with the throttle so low that none of the cars are lit.
As it should. Now try it in neutral at full throttle on the CW.
Rob
David Nebenzahl
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:13:22 GMT, Spender <Spe...@Mars.org> wrote:
>
>>>The whistle button adds a small DC voltage, three or four volts, to the
>>>AC track power. It used to brighten up the lights and make the
>>>locomotive go a little bit faster. I forget just how the whistle motor
>>>discriminated between AC and DC and only turned if it saw DC. Now a
>>>days I would expect solid state, but that wasn't available in the old days.
>
> The older air whistles were "blown" by a small DC voltage which closed a DC
> relay in the tender permitting the track AC voltage to "power" the blower
> motor. On the older whistles, not sure whether the DC was plus or minus to
> activate the relay but when they added a bell they reversed the DC polarity
> so that one way it closed the bell relay and the other way it activated the
> whistle relay. Solid state boards don't use a mechanical relay as in the
> past but the approach is the same...DC one way activates a bell and the
> opposite way activates the whistle.
I still don't get how that works. You say it's a DC relay, but doesn't
the AC going through it make it buzz? Maybe there's a resistor in series
with it?
Anyhow, I gather that somehow it does work.
trainfan1
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:01:09 -0500, trainfan1 <lmse...@usdatanet.net>
> I just tried it, and the whistle blows.
But not as well as at part-throttle. Hold the whistle button down, and
adjust the throttle up & down to observe the effect.
Rob
trainfan1
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:16:53 -0500, trainfan1 <lmse...@usdatanet.net>
> noticeable loss of power near the top of the throttle. It is strongest at
> about 1/2-3/4 throttle (and, as I mentioned, it works at so low a throttle
> setting that the cars aren't lit yet.). It does still blow at full throttle
> though, just not with as much force.
>
> I got the new ZW yesterday. The whistle button works at most all throttle
> settings, but not once you get to full throttle. Then the whistle device
> just spins up without whistling. Is this to be expected? Or will it work
> once I have gotten my Bershire loco back from the shop (or my new Chessie
> diesel arrives) and it is helping to draw more power from the track?
Bingo. You will really not use the whistle at full throttle under
normal conditions with no load.
>
> It's not my last ZW anyway... This one has a large gouge in the front of
> the case, where the top of the case meets the bottom. It looks like someone
> at the factory went a little heavy on the grinder when trimming the flash
> off the plastic after it came out of the mold. The gouge isn't just
> unsightly, it is large enough that the top doesn't fit flush with the
> bottom, leaving a gap large enough that you can actually see into the
> transformer.
>
> And to think the outside carton had that nice green label saying "Q.A.
> PASSED". I think I am getting an idea of what some here are talking about
> when they disparage Lionel's quality. The Lionel name may be legendary, but
> it can't cover up shoddy craftsmanship forever.
>
> All the Lionel rolling stock I have bought has arrived in pristine
> condition. $30-$80 cars. This is a $385 piece of equipment and I have had
> two bad ones so far.
>
> The vendor (WholesaleTrains.com) is replacing it again. They have one left
> and said they would open and inspect it before shipping. At least I hope
> that's what they are doing... I hope they don't plan on sending me a
> returned item. When I pay for a new product, I expect to receive a new
> product.
I'll have to ring up Lantz's and see if they will be returning those to
Lionel or selling them at a discount... I'm within driving distance to
them...
Sorry you're having so much trouble...
Rob