Proto 1000 VS Proto 2000 (and Athearn Genesis)
Froggy
them, but locomotive modeling is not my hobby.
Neither is freight car modeling. Or passenger car modeling
What I do is model railroad operations. I don't have any static models of trains.
Everything I have has to operate, and has to survive in an operating environment.
It has to survive in spite of accidents It has to survive in spite of clumsy
operators.
Now, I have a number of Proto 2000 machines and some Proto 1000 machines as well. I
have formed the opinion that the Proto 2000 models are too delicate to long survive
unscathed in a group operating environment. I have friends that have Proto 2000
models and I have noticed that they do not take abuse very well. Tiny, delicate
detail parts get broken and handrails get maimed on cab style locos. Moveable
grilles and such get out of synch and look peculiar. On the other hand the Proto
1000 models seem to hold up much better in the rough and tumble world of prototype
operations. I might also add that when you are busy operating the railroad and not
spending your time nit-picking the models they look pretty good. I have a set of
Proto 1000 F3s (my only eff units as I do not like effs) on which I replaced the
truck sideframes with Athearn parts. They look real nice (for effs) on a train. I
have seen Athearn Genesis effs and they look better. The problem is that after a few
accidents the Proto 1000 units will look the same. The Athearn units will have
broken bits that have to be repaired.
Now, say what you will about requiring operators to respect the equipment, accidents
are going to happen. You can't stop them. If you do not have, or participate in,
regular group operations or belong to a club that has them, then you need to stay out
of this discussion. I hear people all the time say that ".......somebody [does
something] to one of my locos he is out and never gets asked back!" That's bullshit,
because pretty soon you are all alone and operating solo. So I don't want to hear
that.
I really only want those who are experienced in the area of regular group
operations to input here. It is a tremendously different world from operating your
model railway by yourself or even occasionally with a few selected friends. If I only
operated solo, I could use hand-blown glass locos with scale thickness sheet metal
sides, scale wheels, scale handrails and so on.
That's not what I want to talk about here.
I want to know and possibly debate the ideas about Proto 2000 VS Proto 1000 in the
operating arena.
What is your experience?
What is your opinion?
What are your (realistic) recommendations?
What do you think about the aesthetics of the thing?
Is Proto 1000 a better deal all around?
Why?
Why not?
And any issue or question I didn't think to ask too.
First one to flame is an SOB
OK? Let's go.................F>
Andy Harman
>I want to know and possibly debate the ideas about Proto 2000 VS Proto 1000 in the
>operating arena.
>What is your experience?
So far, Proto 2000 locos have been flaky under DCC, and in particular
the GP30s. I've put one each GP30 and GP7 under DCC and both have
been miserable, the most common issue being jerky operation followed
by memory loss on the decoder.
>What is your opinion?
I think the motors are trash. The plated wheels also are peeling,
after what I'd consider moderate operations. I probably have 12, 15
hours total operation on my GP30 since it's the first loco to lose its
mind in a long session, and the wheels are peeling. The pickup system
is crappy and the drives in general seem prone to self destruction.
>What are your (realistic) recommendations?
I'm still working on that. I haven't decided if remotoring will help
enough to go through the trouble. I've also been considering using
the NWSL wheels and Athearn axle gears, which should prevent the gear
splitting problem, and improve pickup a bit.
>What do you think about the aesthetics of the thing?
Most P2K looks pretty good. I get rid of the delrin details on a
"real" model, i.e. one I'm detailing and painting myself. I have a
few out of the boxers, but they don't have decoders (yet). Any locos
I've had out and about, in particular the E6's and E7's, have lost
lift rings. I don't make much distinction between a loco without lift
rings and one that had them but they broke off. I prefer to not have
these details *molded* on, if they are not durable, or don't look all
that good, at least they should be easily removed and replaced.
Recent attempt to put decoder in Cotton Belt GP60: grinding, lousy
running loco that instantly blew both bulbs.
>Is Proto 1000 a better deal all around?
I think it's a better _deal_ because P1K, at least the first ones,
were quite cheap. The motors are smaller and even more puny than
Proto 2000, if you can imagine that. I have an F unit drive with the
original wussy-motor and it runs like a jackrabbit even with DCC. It
will eventually get repowered. The P1K motor may be better overall
for DCC though, as it doesn't seem to generate the back-spikes that
the Athearn clones do - but I'm going off a pretty small sampling so
it's hard to say for sure.
Andy
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.duckcreek.org - Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Emerson
clockwork. Only drawback is you have to build everything but at least
it'll add to your skill base and it's FUN!!!! or so they told when I
started.
Regards Charles Emerson, Bellbird, NSW, Australia.
Froggy wrote in message news:<3ef65f39...@news.mindspring.com>...
EssEm
wrote:
>Hey Froggy, switch to NSWGR steam. Nothing to break, runs like
>clockwork. Only drawback is you have to build everything but at least
>it'll add to your skill base and it's FUN!!!! or so they told when I
>started.
>
>Regards Charles Emerson, Bellbird, NSW, Australia.
>
>
>
F>, you can safely disregard anything Charles (aka Abdull, but that's
a long story) says. This is a guy who is going to repaint brass C&O
H-8's into a mythical NSWGR 63 class so he can run his C&O loco's even
after converting to the Dark Side. And this assumes NSWGR adopted E.E.
Lucy's improved loading gauge, which I still think an Allegheny would
have, um, stretched.
Or at least he will, if I can finish his track plan of the Short North
(mainline between Sydney and Newcastle) for him. I'm still looking for
my copy of 3D Railroad Concept and Design, which I know is here
somewhere. Probably in a safe place....
Steve
Newcastle Oz
Froggy
>F>, you can safely disregard anything Charles (aka Abdull, but that's
>a long story) says. This is a guy who is going to repaint brass C&O
>H-8's into a mythical NSWGR 63 class so he can run his C&O loco's even
>after converting to the Dark Side. And this assumes NSWGR adopted E.E.
>Lucy's improved loading gauge, which I still think an Allegheny would
>have, um, stretched.
A 2-6-6-6 in Oz would be quite a sight. None of the trackage I've seen looks like it
would support such a machine. I can sort of see one in Victoria on the broad gauge,
but certainly never in QL.
BTW is he going to do it in green or tuscan?
Greg Forestieri
Proto 1000 in >the
>operating arena.
>What is your experience?
I have a single 1000, an F3. I have several 2000s, a PA, some Es,
30s, a single 18.
The F3 so far is a bull. Rugged and no problems running so far.
Truly though I've had no problems with the PA, it too runs well and
really is not THAT delicate (other than the flexi-handrails). The Es
are delicate. Run like a bull, but nothing drives me nuts faster than
snapping off fine plastic lift rings. And I do it all the time. I'm
desparately trying to find a source for the metal rings.
The 18 was a piece of garbage (gears) and the wheels are showing wear
prematurely (and that seems to be an issue for all Protos). The 30s
are OK but again so many details to break, so little time.
>What is your opinion?
It's a tradeoff - personally, though I appreciate and respect the 2000
line, they're not THAT perfect looking. I like the stuff I do by hand
better, but as an off the shelf model they look great. I agree with
the idea that the 1000s have their place. I'm about to become the
proud owner of a NYC C-liner. I wish they'd have left the molded
handrails off the F3. If they have I'd consider it a worthier
competitor, not to Genesis but to Stewart. I won't buy a Genesis
simply for the reasons you state. Beautiful, even exquisite. But I
just don't feel wealthy enough to take one to an operating session.
It would stay pristine for about 3 minutes. And I hate that.
>What are your (realistic) recommendations?
Run what you like. I like all mentioned above, but if you are feint
of heart ( as am I ) be careful what you throw out there.
>What do you think about the aesthetics of the thing?
Their looks don't bother me a bit. Sure, the markings (I have a ATSF
F3) are bit askew but it's a pretty good looking and running model for
$25.
>Is Proto 1000 a better deal all around?
I'd say it's about even. I certainly don't view them as untouchables.
>And any issue or question I didn't think to ask too.
I'll throw out that you could generalize the topic as to brand. My
favorite operating engine that I have, one that I can run for hours
and not worry about, and certainly don't sweat breaking, is an Atlas
C30-7. Runs perfectly, and not "delicate". It's the perfect
combination of runs well, looks pretty good, and is not a piece of
fine china. But the wheels are showing their age quickly. :(
Everyone probably has their favorite engine in that regard.
Nice topic.
MrRathburne
under regular use. Athearn Genesis Trinity Hopppers for example are
excellent museum models, but compared to the LBF model, as delicate as
a butter fly.
As for Proto 1000 versus 2000, I think Proto 1000 are great engines,
but the key issue is, are they made in a loco you want to use? For
example, there is no SD60 Proto 1000 unit so it is a moot point there.
Personally, I think the best way to handle the issue of delicate etc
is to try to have only one guy who is good set up/stage the trains.
Most problems will take place in the set on or removal from the track.
Also if someone has museum pieces, the 'rule' is they leave them
home, operate them only themselves, or if neither of these, don't care
if a grabiron falls off.
Try the 'nephew test'. If a 4-6 year old can run the trains without
damage, they are ready for the layout operations. If not, then caution
is urged.
I always keep the ATSF Proto 1000 Erie builts ready to go for just
such an emergency.................
Froggy wrote in message news:<3ef65f39...@news.mindspring.com>...
Edward Kahn
> Hey Froggy, switch to NSWGR steam. Nothing to break, runs like
> clockwork. Only drawback is you have to build everything but at least
> it'll add to your skill base and it's FUN!!!! or so they told when I
> started.
>
> Regards Charles Emerson, Bellbird, NSW, Australia.
>
>
>
> Froggy wrote in message news:<3ef65f39...@news.mindspring.com>...
> > Let me start off here by saying that I do not model locomotives. I have a lot of
> > them, but locomotive modeling is not my hobby.
> > Neither is freight car modeling. Or passenger car modeling
> > What I do is model railroad operations. I don't have any static models of trains.
> > Everything I have has to operate, and has to survive in an operating environment.
I don't have experience with p1k, but my p2k's are delicate as you
say. Especially the handrails. The shells lose their tabs when they
have to opened often too. My sd7's and 9's are poor runners, but most
of the others are ok, but not up to Kato. Athern is only good for the
price.
Ed
Wolf Kirchmeir
=>What is your opinion?
I like the looks of P2000.
=>What are your (realistic) recommendations?
For reliability and durability, Athearn classics. Built like a Mack truck,
and run forever.
--
Wolf Kirchmeir
Blind River, Ontario, Canada
Never try to teach a pig to dance.
It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Froggy
>........ I'm
>desparately trying to find a source for the metal rings.
Try Model Shipways. I used to buy lotsa parts from them for that exact same thing
years ago when there were no detail parts.
> ....... I wish they'd have left the molded
>handrails off the F3. ........
you and me both. I really like the C-Liners and will have more of them. I freelance
so I can do anything I want. The C-Liners were a favorite of mine and I like the
balance that the Canadians got with that model. Detail enough to look good in a
photo, yet rugged enough to run with the group sessions. It is truly the best of
both worlds thus far.
...................F>
Brian Paul Ehni
"Froggy" <Froggy> wrote:
> On 23 Jun 2003 06:17:39 -0700, gfores...@yahoo.com (Greg Forestieri) wrote:
>
>> ........ I'm
>> desparately trying to find a source for the metal rings.
>
> Try Model Shipways. I used to buy lotsa parts from them for that exact same
> thing
> years ago when there were no detail parts.
>
Try Detail Associates formed wire eye bolts:
ala...@iinet.net.oz
That's only in the east. the iron ore lines in the Pilbara
probably run the world's longest/biggest/heaviest trains, so it would
be OK here in the West.
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address
Pac Man
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3ef65f39...@news.mindspring.com...
lot of
> them, but locomotive modeling is not my hobby.
Aw, c'mon, Froggy. You do so. You mention that you changed the trucks
on the F3's ("I have a set of Proto 1000 F3s (my only eff units as I do not
like effs) on which I replaced the truck sideframes with Athearn parts.")
Now, why would you do that if you don't model locomotives? ^_^
> What I do is model railroad operations.
If that were 100% true, you would simply buy powered frames without
bodies. :-)
> I don't have any static models of trains.
Well, I do. They are my old junkers that I worked on as a young lad
that I keep for sentimental reasons (they stay in my display case).
Everything else has to run...
> Everything I have has to operate, and has to survive in an operating
environment.
> It has to survive in spite of accidents It has to survive in spite of
clumsy
> operators.
Define "accidents". Do you mean a hard hitch? A sideswipe? Putting
one in the turntable pit? Or a one-way trip to sleep with the dust bunnies
(aka a fall to the floor)? Or do you mean handling in and out of storage
boxes, or people physically touching the models in some way?
> Now, I have a number of Proto 2000 machines and some Proto 1000 machines
as well.
I also have a few. Proto 1000: one DL-109, four RDC's. Proto 2000: one
GP9, one FA-1, one FB-1, one FB-2, two PA-1's, & one S-1.
> I
> have formed the opinion that the Proto 2000 models are too delicate to
long survive
> unscathed in a group operating environment. I have friends that have
Proto 2000
> models and I have noticed that they do not take abuse very well. Tiny,
delicate
> detail parts get broken and handrails get maimed on cab style locos.
On mine, I have a busted handrail on the GP9 at the cab, both horns were
broken off on one of my PA-1's, and there are a couple broken handrails on
the FA/FB's. Other than that, the rest are fine. So, yes, I'd have to
agree that they don't take punishment that well. But please note that all
of the above happened when the models were being put on the track, or in or
out of their box. Not once have I had a detail part break during the course
of normal operations (other than the ones that hit the floor, but nothing
really survives that unscathed).
> Moveable
> grilles and such get out of synch and look peculiar.
That only applied to the FA/FB-2's, IIRC.
> On the other hand the Proto
> 1000 models seem to hold up much better in the rough and tumble world of
prototype
> operations.
Well, it's pretty hard for the detail on the P1K to break if there isn't
any to begin with...
> I might also add that when you are busy operating the railroad and not
> spending your time nit-picking the models they look pretty good.
They don't look so bad because the paint is first rate (except for the
RDC-2's and some of the F3's), and what detail there is on the model is
finely done. However, I do notice the difference when running. When I
operate my old Atlas S-2, it looks like a lump of plastic compared to the
P2K S-1. If all things were equal, I'd run the P2K S-1 over the Atlas S-2
any day. However, the S-2 pulls so much better than the S-1, I usually use
it instead. But that is another subject for another day.
> I have a set of
> Proto 1000 F3s (my only eff units as I do not like effs) on which I
replaced the
> truck sideframes with Athearn parts. They look real nice (for effs) on a
train. I
> have seen Athearn Genesis effs and they look better. The problem is that
after a few
> accidents the Proto 1000 units will look the same. The Athearn units will
have
> broken bits that have to be repaired.
I have yet to see a broken Genesis F-unit, but I don't doubt it.
> Now, say what you will about requiring operators to respect the equipment,
accidents
> are going to happen. You can't stop them. If you do not have, or
participate in,
> regular group operations or belong to a club that has them, then you need
to stay out
> of this discussion. I hear people all the time say that ".......somebody
[does
> something] to one of my locos he is out and never gets asked back!"
That's bullshit,
> because pretty soon you are all alone and operating solo. So I don't want
to hear
> that.
Well, I operate about once a week with my father and a friend on my
25'x50' home layout in HO, plus I used to operate on my club's (around 50
members) old analog layout from 1990 to 1998 (when we moved). Since 2001,
we have had bi-annual 2-day shows/operations for 8 hours each time on our
new DCC layout (currently 30' x 60', will be 50' x 120' when done). We just
had our first "official" operating session this month, and I am now the
Operations Chairman for the club.
Is that enough to qualify on this topic? ;-)
> I really only want those who are experienced in the area of regular
group
> operations to input here. It is a tremendously different world from
operating your
> model railway by yourself or even occasionally with a few selected
friends. If I only
> operated solo, I could use hand-blown glass locos with scale thickness
sheet metal
> sides, scale wheels, scale handrails and so on.
> That's not what I want to talk about here.
> I want to know and possibly debate the ideas about Proto 2000 VS Proto
1000 in the
> operating arena.
> What is your experience?
They break when mishandled. They do not break when just operating.
Even a collision or two does not break detail (couplers, yes; detail, no).
> What is your opinion?
Do whatever you like. But if money and selection were no object (for
example, if there were RDC's in P1K _and_ P2K for the same price), I'd take
the more accurate, more fragile locos every time. I like to wallow in
detail. It pegs my "neat" meter. :-)
> What are your (realistic) recommendations?
How so? I get what New Haven equipment I can, doesn't matter to me if
it's P1K, P2K, or Genesis.
> What do you think about the aesthetics of the thing?
Very important to me. If it doesn't look right to me, it looks too much
like a toy, and not a model (IMHO).
> Is Proto 1000 a better deal all around?
Compared to what? P2K and P1K have not overlapped production... If you
want to compare Genesis with P1K, then maybe we can talk. In that case, I'd
pick the best detailed loco, 'cause that's what I like.
> Why?
> Why not?
Again, better deal than what?
Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Jon Miller
like apple and oranges. There are club layouts, where as one person said,
why even put bodies on. The guy with the size 22 glove and a grip like a
vice, well you know the rest.
On home layouts, that are extremely detailed, that do operation the guy
above touches stuff "once"!
Froggy's pretty much correct for the average club but way off for the
home. So it depends on where you operate, if you operate (or just run
trains for your own satisfaction), or display only.
You might even operate at home with a group of friends which include the
guy above. Then you could have a different set of equipment for when the
group comes over.
And then again you could be the guy above so what does it matter<VBG>.
Greg Forestieri
> >> ........ I'm
> >> desparately trying to find a source for the metal rings.
> >
> > Try Model Shipways. I used to buy lotsa parts from them for that exact same
> > thing
> > years ago when there were no detail parts.
> >
>
> Try Detail Associates formed wire eye bolts:
>
> http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/229-2206
I'll try Model Shipways, the DA part was the one I've had in mind and
was the only one I was aware of until now.
thx
Greg
EssEm
>
>A 2-6-6-6 in Oz would be quite a sight. None of the trackage I've seen looks like it
>would support such a machine. I can sort of see one in Victoria on the broad gauge,
>but certainly never in QL.
>BTW is he going to do it in green or tuscan?
Stop it. You'll give him ideas best left unthought... :) If he does,
prob basic NSWGR black with red buffer beams.
BTW, there was one of your countrymen on the Bachmann board going the
other way - an AD60 detailed up for the SP (class lights, number
boards, bufferless, Harriman pilots, etc), calling it an AGS-1. I
suppose if any US road would have used a Garratt, it would have been
the SP..
He didn't answer when I asked would he paint it in Daylight.
Steve
Froggy
>On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:36:51 GMT, Froggy wrote:
>
>
>>
>>A 2-6-6-6 in Oz would be quite a sight. None of the trackage I've seen looks like it
>>would support such a machine. I can sort of see one in Victoria on the broad gauge,
>>but certainly never in QL.
>
>>BTW is he going to do it in green or tuscan?
>
>Stop it. You'll give him ideas best left unthought... :) If he does,
>prob basic NSWGR black with red buffer beams.
OK Black, with a tuscan stripe along the walkway and the tender side.
Or, as another reader suggested, he could run it up in the Northwest as a Hammersley
machine. It would actually be quite believeable up there. Tack on about 125 ore
wagons and go to it.
>BTW, there was one of your countrymen on the Bachmann board going the
>other way - an AD60 detailed up for the SP (class lights, number
>boards, bufferless, Harriman pilots, etc), calling it an AGS-1. I
>suppose if any US road would have used a Garratt, it would have been
>the SP..
>
>He didn't answer when I asked would he paint it in Daylight.
Yeah, he's probably another one of those weird types that does things like running
BLs, Gs, 80s and 442s in North American settings.
This hobby attracts some weird ducks<G>
.............F>
Jason Shron
Greg Forestieri wrote:
>
> The 18 was a piece of garbage (gears) and the wheels are showing wear
> prematurely (and that seems to be an issue for all Protos). The 30s
> are OK but again so many details to break, so little time.
>
My pair of P2K GP9s seem to be fine so far, but they have never been
under heavy duty operating - just regular running on the layout.
> >And any issue or question I didn't think to ask too.
>
> I'll throw out that you could generalize the topic as to brand. My
> favorite operating engine that I have, one that I can run for hours
> and not worry about, and certainly don't sweat breaking, is an Atlas
> C30-7. Runs perfectly, and not "delicate". It's the perfect
> combination of runs well, looks pretty good, and is not a piece of
> fine china. But the wheels are showing their age quickly. :(
> Everyone probably has their favorite engine in that regard.
Without a doubt, my most reliable locomotives are my three vintage
Atlas/Roco FP7s (which are now FP9s). With DCC, they all run
beautifully, make a growl that sounds like a real diesel, and can be
relied on 99% of the time.
My P2K FA2 (now an FPA4) is a pain in the Tuuk-Ass, as Harrison Ford
nearly said in the "Frisco Kid". And don't even mention the SW1200 -
can't pull a feather on wheels and is unreliable on DCC - has to be
cleaned daily.
Regards,
Jason
--
Model Trains - Canadian Trains - Passenger Trains
Introducing the Canadian LRC coach in HO scale from Rapido Trains:
http://www.rapidotrains.com
And join the Canadian Model Trains discussion group, at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanModelTrains/
MainStHtge
>don't even mention the SW1200 -
>can't pull a feather on wheels and is unreliable on DCC - has to be
>cleaned daily.
Gee, I've been looking for a SW 800,900,or 1200 in CB&Q and thought PK2 was the
way to go.
Can anyone suggest a better model of this basic 50's switcher? Jason's
comments are enough to make me avoid the PK2.
Bruce West
Main Street Heritage Models
http://www.mainstreet-heritage.com
Toss "wospam" to e-mail
CowGoesMoo
>the
>way to go.
For what its worth, I bought a PK2 SW800 about five months ago and I've never
had a problem with it.
CGM
Bruce Favinger
small locomotive as far as I'm concerned. Its runs really well on dirty
track too but the lights will flicker with even the very slightest bit of
oxidation or dirt. Bruce
"CowGoesMoo" <cowgo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030624180424...@mb-m20.aol.com...
Charles Emerson
you can disregard Magoo. This is a guy who's gone from HO to On30 and
now NSWGR 'O' guage :) When he buys his little 19 class and builds his
Batlow branch at least I'm keeping with Lucy's original, with a little
modellers licence, proposed revison to the loading guage. Anyway what
elese will I do with all my C&O brass. Wait till I build my AD60 Magoo
will be on his knees crying :)
Greetings from Oz Charles Emerson, Bellbird, NSW, Australia
Froggy wrote in message news:<3ef7b48c...@news.mindspring.com>...
Froggy
>Same here. I've got a P2K T&P SW800. It runs very well and pulls good for a
>small locomotive as far as I'm concerned. Its runs really well on dirty
>track too but the lights will flicker with even the very slightest bit of
>oxidation or dirt. Bruce
>
I will never have one of these since I do not have any EMD switchers on any of the
roads I model. However I do have the P2K Alco S1.
Other than being a first-class PITA to put a decoder into, it seems to do OK.
The main thing that I have a problem with is the fact that Life-Like painted the
model incorrectly. The Gulf, Mobile & Northern painted their locos silver and
scarlet. The P2K model is silver and maroon. Now, of course, the silver is spot-on,
but the maroon is at the other end of the red spectrum from scarlet.
The thing looks peculiar among a batch of correctly painted machines.
.................F>
Froggy
>........ Anyway what
>elese will I do with all my C&O brass.
Well, you could "imagineer" a line from Yarrie up in the Pilbarra to Perth/Freemantle
for trans-shipping.
AFAIK there is no such line. You could call it the Western Australia Railway (WARY)
and run big North American machines like Hammersley do. Just what you'd need to get
across the mountains at Newman and Meekathara.
..........F>
Froggy
I thought about this as the day wore on and it occurred to me that if you were going
to freelance anyway, why not build several 2-6-6-6s with condensing tenders. Huge
cooling coils mounted on the sides with four big 1.3 metre fans atop the tender.
It'd be the perfect place for such machines since there hasn't been any water out
there for the last ten million years.
Germany and South Africa did it successfully; no reason to think that it couldn't be
done in Oz.
..................F>
Vegemite, GA.
Froggy
>
><Froggy> wrote in message news:3ef65f39...@news.mindspring.com...
>> Let me start off here by saying that I do not model locomotives. I have a
>lot of
>> them, but locomotive modeling is not my hobby.
>
> Aw, c'mon, Froggy. You do so. You mention that you changed the trucks
>on the F3's ("I have a set of Proto 1000 F3s (my only eff units as I do not
>like effs) on which I replaced the truck sideframes with Athearn parts.")
>Now, why would you do that if you don't model locomotives? ^_^
Some people stop at the locomotive stage. They never go any farther into the hobby
than building locomotives. My late friend Dan Mills was one of these. Dan
scratchbuilt the most beautiful O and HO scale steam locomotives you have ever seen.
Out of tin. Not brass, tin. He had a Great Northern O8 that was one of the most
exquisite jewels I have ever seen. It made any Overland look like Tyco by comparison.
Dan made everything from scratch, and I mean everything. He did his own casting of
detail parts and EVERYTHING. All his locos has scale wheels, scale flanges, scale
handrails, full cab interior detail........ He had Challengers, Niagaras, Northerns;
you name it, Dan probably had it or something similar. Dan even went so far as to
build one locomotive, a Burlington 4-8-4 Northern, out of silver. Several others he
silver plated. Words cannot describe the appearance of these machines.
Dan Mills was a locomotive modeler. My skills and abilities would not be even a
pimple on Dan's nose by comparison. AFAIK, dan never operated a model railway. he
never belonged to any club or group and most certainly never had any interest in
building his own layout. He did scratchbuild display bases for his locos that were
as exquisite as the models that sat on them, but that was it.
I just try to make mine look real good, yet survive in the operating arena. I am to
operations as Dan was to building. Ops. is my artform. It is THE reason I subscribe
to the hobby. If the Athearn F7 was the best locomotive I could get, I suppose I
would make-do. After all, for twenty years it was, and I did.
I will allow this much PacMan, Of late I have been thinking about scratching some big
electrics like the ones the New Haven had. Pretty much a total project since I'd have
to scratch the whole thing, chassis, frame and all. Ahhhh, but I do so like them <G>
................F>
Form 19, GA
Pac Man
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3ef9e915...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> Some people stop at the locomotive stage. They never go any farther into
the hobby
> than building locomotives. My late friend Dan Mills was one of these.
<snip>
From your description, it sounds like he was what I would call a model
locomotive builder (like a model ship builder, or a model car builder). A
great hobby in and of itself, but you'd have to admit, it is a rare person
indeed who builds RR models and doesn't run any of them (to me, it'd be like
building a R/C car and then not using it).
> I just try to make mine look real good, yet survive in the operating
arena. I am to
> operations as Dan was to building. Ops. is my artform. It is THE reason I
subscribe
> to the hobby. If the Athearn F7 was the best locomotive I could get, I
suppose I
> would make-do. After all, for twenty years it was, and I did.
Well, define "survive". Even if you stripped off all the detail on a
P2K, it'd still run. I'm way more concerned with the drive train failing
than I am with a handrail or a grabiron falling off.
> I will allow this much PacMan, Of late I have been thinking about
scratching some big
> electrics like the ones the New Haven had. Pretty much a total project
since I'd have
> to scratch the whole thing, chassis, frame and all. Ahhhh, but I do so
like them <G>
Hmm... You could find some old brass GG-1's and scratch (or find old NH
brass electrics and rebuild). There is always the plastic GG-1's, and the
new Broadway Limited GG-1 coming soon. After all, the GG-1 is a New Haven
design... ;-)
And don't forget catenary. www.modelmemories.com
Jerry Zeman
> What is your experience?
I presently operate a fleet of P2K locomotives, equipped with DCC
decoders. They all seem to be somewhat suseptable to dirty track
problems. So far, regular cleanings seem to be keeping things under
control. If there is one thing that totally torques me off about P2K
diesels is the excessive gear lash which causes jerky operation when
going downhill (20 cars 2 units, 1.5% grade)
I have purchased four P1K f units strictly for the drives, with
Intermountain F unit shells. A friend of mine has the P1K C-liners,
decoder equipped, and is very pleased with them.
My P2K 0-8-0 is the worst for dirty wheel operation. When I have
time, I have to investigate fixes for the problem.
> What is your opinion?
I like P2K, for the money, one of the best sources for power for my
era (1952)
> What are your (realistic) recommendations?
If you operate, run the P2Ks to death. Honestly, if you are having
that much problem with detail parts breaking off, the only way I can
see that happening is A) your operators are 6' 19", 350 lbs, with one
eye in the center of their forehead, or B) your track needs serious
attention.
I host a group of people over every two months. I haven't started
prototype operations yet, but I hope to begin in the fall. I need to
complete a second staging yard, which will allow for true
point-to-point operation. However, our regular operating
get-togethers do a fair exercise of the layout and equipment. To
date, none of my equipment has taken what I consider a serious
beating. The worst mishap I had was a read-ender when a set of
Intermountain Fs plowed into the back of a stopped freight train.
Pretty dramatic collision, five cars sprawled everywhere. The worst
that happened was a door on a P2K stock car came loose, and one
moulded handrail was broken. Nothing a little Tenax couldn't fix.
My layout has the scenery shell completed all the way around. All
hidden track has edge guarding to keep any equipment from suffering
from deceleration trauma. During our operating sessions, I average
one derailment or less over five hours of running. I have more
problems with overcurrent shutdowns from folks running into misaligned
turnouts (operator error).
> What do you think about the aesthetics of the thing?
P2K is great. P1K is great too, especially with my advancing age and
deteriorating eyesight. I also change my P2K sideframes to Athearn,
they look just a little better.
> Is Proto 1000 a better deal all around?
> Why?
> Why not?
Depends on the application. I like P1K drives for my Intermountain
shells. If one dies, no big deal. Replacements are cheap, cheap,
cheap. But most of my Intermountain shells are on Stewart drives.
They are bulletproof (and more expensive).
But since P1K doesn't make everything I need, I use numerous sources
for motive power.
> And any issue or question I didn't think to ask too.
From an operating perspective, my biggest concern is the survivability
of freight car details. I'm accumulating a growing fleet of
Intermountain, P2K, Red Caboose, Sunshine, etc cars that are
beautifully detailed, but won't survive 0-5-0 uncoupling. While I
have uncoupling devices available, getting folks to use them can get
to be a struggle. The best one I've used is the uncoupling tools from
MicroMart (looks like a scriber), or homemade variations of it. The
CV and Rix magnetic uncouplers drive me nuts. With those, I'd rather
uncouple by hand.
I also run a fleet of brass steam. The older United and Tenshodo
stuff withstands handling better that some of the Korean imports,
which do look better.
I'm going to take the following approach regarding the railroad when I
start sessions.
1. If you break something, let me know. There is a good chance I can
fix it. As long as I can keep a running log of repairs, I think I
will be able to keep the detailed stuff looking good. If I know the
individual and have confidence in their abilities, I may point them to
the tools and glue and tell them to fix it themselves. I intend to be
far too busy writing train orders and hostling locomotives on the
shoptracks. Why am I doing the hostling you ask? So I can keep
people away from my Diamond Scale turntable, roundhouse, service
facilities, etc. where I AM worried about damage to facilities and
equipment.
2. Since most of the people that I will host for operating sessions I
already know, I don't intend to ruin friendships over broken grab
irons.
3. One of my pet peeves with hosting operators is their need to use
the layout edge as a public leaning post. This habit isn't restricted
to the non-sceniced areas. I'm considering a couple of ways to deal
with this problem. The first would be to install punji sticks around
the layout periphery. That would solve the problem quickly. The
problem is, yours truly is just as big of offender in non-sceniced
areas as any visitors, so the practicality of that solution is
limited. The second would be a gentle reminder at the beginning of a
session, along with a request to use uncoupling tools instead of
meathooks.
4. I'm looking forward to running the layout to death. So far, with
regular operation, the layout has held up well, with minimal
maintenance (going on 15 years already since the start of
construction). It wouldn't break my heart to run the layout and
equipment to death for the next 15 years, and have to start over.
Something to do in retirement.
regards,
Jerry Zeman
Froggy
>....... After all, the GG-1 is a New Haven design... ;-)
OK. Now you've done it.
You are going to have to go into some detail about this one.
I know that Baldwin built 135 of them for the Pencil-vania. Where is the New Haven
connection?
I have not seen every Hew Haven electric loco and I certainly do not remember seeing
that running gear under anything else save the Pencil-vania P-5.
BTW, GG-1 and P-5 are two electrics that I would never have. Simply because there is
positively no way on God's Earth to dissociate them from the Pencil-vania. The New
Haven's motors would be pretty much acceptable on any freelanced heavy electric
railway.
While you're at it, how 'bout posting some links, if you have any?
Faster than 'rasslin' with search engines.
..............F>
Froggy
>........... Honestly, if you are having
>that much problem with detail parts breaking off, the only way I can
>see that happening is A) your operators are 6' 19", 350 lbs, with one
>eye in the center of their forehead, or B) your track needs serious
>attention.
I don't want to give the impression that following an operating session the various
layouts in our group look like a Kansas tornado field. That is not the case......
>.....The worst mishap I had was a read-ender when a set of
>Intermountain Fs plowed into the back of a stopped freight train.
>Pretty dramatic collision, five cars sprawled everywhere.
This is the sort of thing I mean. It will happen, even in the most AR group of
people. Sometimes there is no problem. Sometimes equipment gets damaged. I would
guess that 96% of the time it's operator error, 3.7% of the time its dispatcher error
and 0.3% of the time it's the equipment.
>...............From an operating perspective, my biggest concern
> is the survivability...................... cars that are
>beautifully detailed, but won't survive 0-5-0 uncoupling. While I
>have uncoupling devices available, getting folks to use them can get
>to be a struggle. The best one I've used is the uncoupling tools from
>MicroMart (looks like a scriber), or homemade variations of it.
We use bamboo skewers, six or four inch ones, that are available at the supermarket.
They work b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l-l-y. One of our group made some from brass with a nice
hex grip for the fingers. Won't work. you need the roughness of the bamboo. The
polished brass won't open the knuckle<G>
>........... The CV and Rix magnetic uncouplers drive me nuts.
> With those, I'd rather uncouple by hand.
We have abandoned all the other stuff; Rix, CV, Kadee magnets.....you name it and it
won't be found on any of our layouts. All uncoupling is done manually using the
skewers. Works every time and you never risk damaging a car's grabs or other
details.
Thanx for your input Jerry, interesting posting..................F>
David J. Starr
Jason Shron wrote:
>
>
> My P2K FA2 (now an FPA4) is a pain in the Tuuk-Ass, as Harrison Ford
> nearly said in the "Frisco Kid". And don't even mention the SW1200 -
> can't pull a feather on wheels and is unreliable on DCC - has to be
> cleaned daily.
>
Ohh. My favorite rig is ABBA lash up of P2k FA/FB Alco's. With
powered the B units it will take about 55 cars up the club's ruling
grade. I also love my P2k Sw1200, in B&M maroon and gold. Runs good and
pulls hard.
David Starr
Pac Man
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3efa2d3c...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:26:34 GMT, "Pac Man" <cut...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> >....... After all, the GG-1 is a New Haven design... ;-)
>
> OK. Now you've done it.
> You are going to have to go into some detail about this one.
> I know that Baldwin built 135 of them for the Pencil-vania. Where is the
New Haven
> connection?
Bwahahahah! :-) Please, allow me to illuminate the darkest corners of
your mind! (hoo boy, did I mention it's the first hot day of the year and
my brain is fried?). Ahem. Annnnyways...
The NH was a leader in electric locomotive design and usage in the first
half of the 20th Century. Many innovations in electric design could be
traced to the New Haven's Mechanical Dept. However, the GG-1 connection is
rather more specific.
In 1931, the New Haven took delivery of 10 EP-3 class electrics,
numbered 0351-0360. These had the first 2-C+C-2 wheel arrangment (except
for the 22 Cleveland Union Terminal's (CUT) 3000 VDC delivered in 1929; the
CUT's differed in that they had one motor per axle & no quill drive; the New
Haven's EP-3's had twin motors on a quill drive at 11,000 VAC).
I think Jack Swanberg said it best, so I'm going to copy a couple of
paragraphs from his book, "New Haven Power", page 352:
"Meanwhile, all was not well with the Pennsy's new A.C. electrification.
The initial P-5 2-C-2 passenger electrics built starting in 1931 were not
only too light for consists over eight or ten cars but suffered tracking
problems. Thus starting in April 1933 almost two years of high speed
testing was begun by the PRR near Claymont, Del., and here our New Haven
0351 series re-entered the picture. At least the 0351, 0354, and 0359
joined in the tests, and some where regeared by the Wilmington Shops for 120
MPH. With their articulated truck frames and weight/power spread over many
more axles than the rigid framed P-5, the New Haven electrics tracked much
better at high speeds.
"The rest is history. The Pennsylvania built two large experimental
electrics after the initial tests, with the 1934 testing demonstrating that
the one based on the NH 0351 series tracked much better than the expanded
variant of the P-5. The NH-based test engine became the 4800, the first of
139 GG-1's which were the most successful electrics ever rostered by the
Pennsylvania Railroad."
Now, of couse Raymond Lowey designed the carbody, but under the skin
(except for the location of the cabs), the GG-1 is New Haven through and
through: it has twin AC motors, a quill drive, and runs on 11,000 VAC.
> I have not seen every Hew Haven electric loco and I certainly do not
remember seeing
> that running gear under anything else save the Pencil-vania P-5.
The 2-C+C-2 wheel arrangement was not only on the 10 EP-3's; it was also
under the 6 EP-4's and the 10 EF-3's. The EP's all had 3rd rail shoes on
the leading and trailing trucks, the EF-3's did not (NH electrics needed 3rd
rail shoes for GCT). BTW, the EP-3's were boxcabs, while the EP-4 and EF-3
both looked like a double ended F-unit (but not quite). All were painted in
the dark green with yellow stripes you like so much, but at least 2 EP-3's
got painted in McGinnis (your *real* favorite, right?). ;-p
Oh, and it's "New Haven", not "Hew Haven". ;-) Again! ^_^
> BTW, GG-1 and P-5 are two electrics that I would never have. Simply
because there is
> positively no way on God's Earth to dissociate them from the Pencil-vania.
The New
> Haven's motors would be pretty much acceptable on any freelanced heavy
electric
> railway.
Well, the carbody, no, there is no mistaking that GG-1 for anything
else... But the running gear? You could easily make any of the three NH
electrics if you had good running gear. The rest is just body work (and
that is so much easier than messing with drive trains).
> While you're at it, how 'bout posting some links, if you have any?
> Faster than 'rasslin' with search engines.
A good place is www.http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nh/nh.html
Specifically, EP-3: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nh/nh0357.jpg
And EP-4: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~efbrazil/v8_nh_30.html
And EF-3: http://www.nhrhta.org/images/photo4.jpg
And for something almost completely different (I stumbled across it),
here's a pic that was taken 32 years ago only two miles from my house on the
New Haven (but Penn Central by the time of the photo):
http://photos.nerail.org/photos/200010092002389604.jpg
Now imagine the above scene today: the tower is long gone, the stone
building (ca. 1850) on the left was burnt down by a bunch of kids in the
1990's, the switches have been replaced by 80 mph crossovers and relocated
behind us, the signals have been moved and replaced with NYC style signals,
and the whole thing is now under wire, etc. About the only thing left is
the milepost and the chain link fence. And yes, this is one of the places
that the Acela Express goes 150 mph today.
Here, take a look: http://photos.nerail.org/photos/2001040920033430786.jpg
And: http://photos.nerail.org/photos/200103222024027790.jpg
Weird, isn't it? Doesn't even look like the same place...
Paul A. Cutler III - at milepost 206 on the NEC...
Froggy
Thanx PacMan. I will respond to this later, after I have had a chance to visit the
links.........
> > Oh, and it's "New Haven", not "Hew Haven". ;-) Again! ^_^
It's that pesky " H " key, it keeps jumping in front of the " N " key.
That, coupled with my big fat fingers that have a hard time hitting just one key at a
time. I need a keyboard with bigger keys<G>
....................F>
Nick Fotis
> BTW, GG-1 and P-5 are two electrics that I would never have. Simply because there is
> positively no way on God's Earth to dissociate them from the Pencil-vania. The New
> Haven's motors would be pretty much acceptable on any freelanced heavy electric
> railway.
What about these "Little Joes" from Milwaukee Road?
Or are these too associated with MILW for your tastes?
In this case, you could use some big boxcab electric, which has a more
generic look.
Going again to lurk in the shadows...
Regards from a really hot Athens (no, not the one in Georgia!),
Nick Fotis.
Charles Emerson
although Hammersly Iron is an interesting sideline. Magoo is as I
write this, busy designing a version of the "Short North", Sydney to
Newcastle with emphasis on Cowan bank. I know that I can't really use
my US engines on NSWGR but if you could have seen Alco's version of 57
class mountain that they proposed or Lima's 4-8-4 38 class that they
squeezed into the 1906 loading guage things could have been different.
EE.Lucy had some paper designs for the revised loading guage including
variations of 2-8-2's, 2-6-6-2's, 4-6-4-4-6-4 Garrett passenger engine
and a 2-6-8-4 articulated. Makes you wonder how different things could
have been if the railways hadn't been controlled by the government
finance dept.
greetings from Oz
Charles Emerson, Bellbird, NSW, Australia.
Froggy wrote in message news:<3ef9e4e9...@news.mindspring.com>...
Froggy
>What about these "Little Joes" from Milwaukee Road?
>Or are these too associated with MILW for your tastes?
>In this case, you could use some big boxcab electric, which has a more
>generic look.
Hey there Nick.
You are correct, of course, about the "Little Joes". Only two railroads had them that
I can recall at the moment; Milwaukee and the South Shore.
Of course, electrics were nearly as individual as steam locos. There is just a
certain something about specific locos however, that renders them unusable outside
their recognized turf. Almost all Pencil-vania steam is this way. The P-5 and GG-1
can be included as well. Now, a Cleveland Union Terminal motor is just as unique as
a GG-1, but because it looks generally like so many other motors you can get away
with running it on a freelanced electric railway. Almost all of the big, heavy
electrics that operated in North America, though individual to a point, still had a
more or less similar appearance.
When I lived in Japan, back in the '60s I bought many Japanese prototype electrics
and incorporated them into my [future] railroad's roster. Once painted and lettered,
you have to be a true expert to know what is what as it relates to the prototype
world. Almost no one ever knew which of my motors was a North American prototype and
which ones were Japanese or European. Ahhh, but a GG-1? Instantaneous recognition
by any modeler on the continent and maybe in most of the model railroading world.
Oh, by the way, it's hot here in North America too. the Atlanta Metro area is
supposed to go over 32 degrees today.
.....................F>
Brian Paul Ehni
"Froggy" <Froggy> wrote:
>
> Oh, by the way, it's hot here in North America too. the Atlanta Metro area is
> supposed to go over 32 degrees today.
>
> .....................F>
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over 32° (Fahrenheit)! 8^)
Brian
Greg Forestieri
> Greg Forestieri wrote:
>
> >
> > The 18 was a piece of garbage (gears) and the wheels are showing wear
> > prematurely (and that seems to be an issue for all Protos). The 30s
> > are OK but again so many details to break, so little time.
> >
>
> My pair of P2K GP9s seem to be fine so far, but they have never been
> under heavy duty operating - just regular running on the layout.
I'm beginning to view P2k as a "better Bachmann". They really are
like a "box of chocolates".
> Without a doubt, my most reliable locomotives are my three vintage
> Atlas/Roco FP7s (which are now FP9s). With DCC, they all run
> beautifully, make a growl that sounds like a real diesel, and can be
> relied on 99% of the time.
>
I like my FP7 as well. Runs well and has that quiet but steady growl.
It's a classic. If they come out with a "new improved" version it
will cost $130 and be too quiet. ;)
Froggy
>Froggy, I could never do that.............
Ahhhh, pity. I will never do it either, although I have always wanted to have some
big, NA style condensing locomotives. I will never live the requsite 235 years that
it would take for me to accomplish the building of everything I would like to see
modeled <!>
>........... Never really cared much for WA steam
>although Hammersly Iron is an interesting sideline. Magoo is as I
>write this, busy designing a version of the "Short North", Sydney to
>Newcastle with emphasis on Cowan bank. I know that I can't really use
>my US engines on NSWGR but if you could have seen Alco's version of 57
>class mountain that they proposed or Lima's 4-8-4 38 class that they
>squeezed into the 1906 loading guage things could have been different.
No I haven't seen these Perhaps you could contact me off group if you have some
scans. I have some photos of the 3830 nice looking machine.
Steve knows how to get me.
>EE.Lucy had some paper designs for the revised loading guage including
>variations of 2-8-2's, 2-6-6-2's, 4-6-4-4-6-4 Garrett passenger engine
>and a 2-6-8-4 articulated. Makes you wonder how different things could
>have been if the railways hadn't been controlled by the government
>finance dept.
I'd like to see a 2-6-6-2 for Australian loading gauge.
............F>
Froggy
That's true, but since we are one of the few remaining countries in the world that
still uses the Fahrenheit scale, I have started posting everything in Celsius. That
is, when I can remember to do so.
I have to keep reminding myself that this is an international forum, not just the
USA.
Jim Stewart
Froggy wrote:
If I can understand their celsius, they can understand my fahrenheit.
Jim Stewart
JCunington
>>
>>
>> My P2K FA2 (now an FPA4) is a pain in the Tuuk-Ass, as Harrison Ford
Tuuk-Ass? Oh, you mean tuchas. Oy, such mashugannah spelling!
Jay
Modeling the North Shore & North Western
C&NW/CNS&M in 1940-1955
Due to spam, all e-mails except those from selected addresses will be refused.
Thanks for your understanding.
EssEm
>
>No I haven't seen these Perhaps you could contact me off group if you have some
>scans. I have some photos of the 3830 nice looking machine.
>Steve knows how to get me.
>
>>EE.Lucy had some paper designs for the revised loading guage including
>>variations of 2-8-2's, 2-6-6-2's, 4-6-4-4-6-4 Garrett passenger engine
>>and a 2-6-8-4 articulated. Makes you wonder how different things could
>>have been if the railways hadn't been controlled by the government
>>finance dept.
>
>I'd like to see a 2-6-6-2 for Australian loading gauge.
>
>............F>
F>
C'est moi. A mate of ours has the book on E.E. Lucy in which the
loco's are outline drawn - sketch - or artists impression. Will filch
book back off said mate, scan and send. Expect a few days delay until
I see him.
Steve
(and Emerson tells lies. He was in Qld while writing that stuff, at a
control desk at a power station. Where he was supposed to be working.
He was not in beautiful downtown Bellbird.
Shame, Abdull, shame!!!)