Athearn/Ernst regearing?
Mike Maddeford
I have an Athearn GP38-2 and a set of Ernst gears. What next? I have seen someone here who has changed over hundreds, so if you can give me some tips PLEASE do. I have heard that you need to change the direction somehow. The instructions say to switch trucks end for end but I don't think they will fit (the hole in the frame isn't in the center).
Thanks
Mike Maddeford madd...@netroute.net
Andy Harman
On 26 Nov 1997 15:43:46 GMT, madd...@netroute.net (Mike Maddeford)
wrote:
>I have an Athearn GP38-2 and a set of Ernst gears. What next? I have
>seen someone here who has changed over hundreds, so if you can
>give me some tips PLEASE do. I have heard that you need to change
>the direction somehow. The instructions say to switch trucks end for
>end but I don't think they will fit (the hole in the frame isn't in the center).
You don't need to turn the trucks around, you need to swap the front
and rear truck AND turn them around so they fit. Because the idler
gear in the Ernst kit reverses direction, this flip-flop is necessary
to reverse the polarity on the contacts to compensate. Unless of
course you are using DCC and have a reverse bit setting, then it won't
matter.
The only tips I have on Ernst gears, other than "don't use them" <g>
are to be very thorough and check for off-center gears, apparently
this has been a problem at least in the past. I did 4 or 5 units with
Ernst gears back in the early 80's, junked them all.
Andy
Visit the Prototype Modelers Group Web Page at http://w3.one.net/~aharman/index.html
Sorry I must resort to anti-spam practice, reply to aharman at one (spelled out) dot net
Arved Grass
The best thing you can do with an Ernst regear kit is to try and return it
and get your money back. Failing that, the next best thing is to toss them
into trash.
They are incredibly noisy (any more than two in a train, and hearing
protection is required), and performance will not match anything else.
Flywheel effect is almost completely nullified by the additional geartrain
drag.
If you really must try, you can file the frame a bit to make the trucks fit,
or you can substitute a Lifelike Proto 2000 motor (which is wired
"backwards." You may also be able to flip the permenant magnet in the motor
to get it to run "backwards," but I'm not sure
Mike Maddeford wrote in message <65hg3i$7sk$1...@flint.sentex.net>...
>I have an Athearn GP38-2 and a set of Ernst gears. What next? I have seen
someone here who has changed over hundreds, so if you can give me some tips
PLEASE do. I have heard that you need to change the direction somehow. The
instructions say to switch trucks end for end but I don't think they will
fit (the hole in the frame isn't in the center).
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike Maddeford madd...@netroute.net
Best regards,
- Arved KF4UCQ
Electronic mail sent to this account are automatically retreived by a FAX
machine, under the definition of Title 47 USC Sec.227 (a)(2)(B). Therefore,
unsolicited commercial electronic mail sent to this address is in violation
of Title 47 USC Sec. 227.
I can be reached at "Ar...@MediaOne.net"
UNRL...@ix.netcom.com
I have several old Athearn units that I converted in the late 70s, early
80s that are still clipping along just fine. One of the clever things I
did when I originally installed them was follow the directions... I
realize that runs counter to good, red-blooded, American guy model
railroad dictum, but it worked for me.
As a matter of fact, I even converted the wheelsets to On2 and they
still work fine. Several other things:
Convert to NWSL nickel-silver wheels. Although not directly related to
this discussion, it helps.
Look the gears over very carefully for burrs. Get rid of them if you
find any.
"Run" the whole system in with some toothpaste on the gears. Then,
take the whole thing apart, clean thoroughly, reassemble and lubricate
with some LaBelle.
Be prepared for noisy units. That may or may not be a problem for you. I
kinda like it.
Forget about mu-ing and really smooth operation. What'll you have is a
loud, good, low-speed unit that will pull tons of cars. My SW-7 started
to slip after 51 cars...
Ernst is in the Walthers catalog. They are still a very active company,
but haven't advertised in the model railroad press for years. You can
find their R/C ads on a regular basis in Radio Control Modeler magazine.
If you want absolutely smooth, silent operation, you're not going to
find it with Ernst units. If you want smooth and silent, buy a modern
unit and enjoy. But, if you want a good, modeling project, installing
Ernst units will give it to you.
Finally, does anyone remember what happened to those Holland regear
units from the mid-70s. They seemed to have some kind of clutch
operation like the old Lindberg units.
Andy Harman
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:25:52 -0400, UNRL...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>80s that are still clipping along just fine. One of the clever things I
>did when I originally installed them was follow the directions...
but then later said:
>Be prepared for noisy units.
and:
>Forget about mu-ing and really smooth operation.
and:
>If you want absolutely smooth, silent operation, you're not going to
>find it with Ernst units.
I guess I can agree, because when I tried these things I did follow
the instructions as you did, and got the same results. I just found
the performance unacceptable, especially in the switchers. The 6-axle
units I converted (SD9 and U28C) were as you describe, loud and slow,
but ran well enough aside. I junked them out because they wouldn't
run with anything. Where I had hoped to gain some useful gear
reduction was in the SW unit. The lunge was so bad that any crew
would not only have had whiplash, they would have been dead of broken
necks by the time they reached notch 3. If you can live with this
"slinky train" effect, great. But there aren't any secrets hidden in
the instruction sheet what will eliminate it... other than random
luck. I'm not going to buy any more of these sets hoping to get
lucky, I'm better off buying lottery tickets.
>Finally, does anyone remember what happened to those Holland regear
>units from the mid-70s. They seemed to have some kind of clutch
>operation like the old Lindberg units.
Are you refering to what was called a "Heiden Transmission"? These
were a reduction setup that was attached directly to the motor, and
fit in place of the flywheel. Did not require taking apart the
gearboxes. When someone told me back then, "oh don't get those, the
Ernst are much smoother" I got the message, although it could have
been wrong, opinions being what they are.
jlrosen
Andy Harman wrote:
>
> >Be prepared for noisy units.
<snip>
> and:
>
> >Forget about mu-ing and really smooth operation.
<snip>
If you are speaking of MUing with other than another re-gear, they won't
work BUT re-gears run fine together
>
> and:
>
> >If you want absolutely smooth, silent operation, you're not going to
> >find it with Ernst units.
<SNIP>
On this point I can not agree. I operate on a railroad that uses over a
dozen re-gears, SD-9s, Trainmasters, F-7s, GP-7s and Stewart AS-616s and
they all run very smooth. Another point is they tend to slow Hot Rod
engineers down to near scale speeds as they DO get noisy wide open.
<SNIP>
> I guess I can agree, because when I tried these things I did follow
> the instructions as you did, and got the same results. I just found
> the performance unacceptable, especially in the switchers. The 6-axle
> units I converted (SD9 and U28C) were as you describe, loud and slow,
> but ran well enough aside. I junked them out because they wouldn't
> run with anything. Where I had hoped to gain some useful gear
> reduction was in the SW unit. The lunge was so bad that any crew
> would not only have had whiplash, they would have been dead of broken
> necks by the time they reached notch 3. If you can live with this
> "slinky train" effect, great. But there aren't any secrets hidden in
> the instruction sheet what will eliminate it... other than random
> luck. I'm not going to buy any more of these sets hoping to get
> lucky, I'm better off buying lottery tickets.
>Andy
There is also a Cary(?) cast metal FM switcher, H-10-44 ??, that uses an
Athearn SW frame and is re-geared that runs fine.
I'm not sure if Roy did anything special installing the kits but I love
the way they run.
Just my opinion.
John W Rosenbauer
Mike Maddeford
Thanks for the reply.
TTYL
Mike
F. DABNEY
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Andy Harman wrote:
>
> >If you want absolutely smooth, silent operation, you're not going to
> >find it with Ernst units.
>
> I guess I can agree, because when I tried these things I did follow
> the instructions as you did, and got the same results. I just found
> the performance unacceptable, especially in the switchers. The 6-axle
> units I converted (SD9 and U28C) were as you describe, loud and slow,
> but ran well enough aside. I junked them out because they wouldn't
> run with anything. Where I had hoped to gain some useful gear
> reduction was in the SW unit. The lunge was so bad that any crew
> would not only have had whiplash, they would have been dead of broken
> necks by the time they reached notch 3. If you can live with this
> "slinky train" effect, great. But there aren't any secrets hidden in
> the instruction sheet what will eliminate it... other than random
> luck. I'm not going to buy any more of these sets hoping to get
> lucky, I'm better off buying lottery tickets.
My experience has been similarly varied. One set I installed in an
Athearn SW ran quietly and others ran like doo-doo. My close examination
showed off center gears. The spur gear that mates with the worm is cast
with another smaller diameter spur that in turn mates with the gears that
drive the axle. These should be perfectly concentric, but many weren't
with the result of a "variable ratio" gear set. I also found that it is
nearly impossible to use a Kadee driver cleaner- the gears would pop out
of mesh so the wheel you were cleaning wouldn't turn...
Some of this may also be due to relatively loos tolerances n the Athearn
gear box itself. It would be interesting to try them in a P2K Athearn-
clone gear box.
Fred D.
Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
jlrosen
F. DABNEY wrote:
It would be interesting to try them in a P2K Athearn-
> clone gear box.
>
> Fred D.
> Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
Fred,
They work fine in the BL-2.
John W Rosenbauer
Ken Nelson
I have used Ernst regear kits for Athearn Hustler, and for the Athearn RDC.
These were both originally rubber-band drive, so there was nowhere to go but
up...
In both cases, the resulting units run slower and smoother, especially at low
speed. And they were fun modelling projects- not too easy, but not impossible.
Ken Nelson
Burridge, Gerard
My take:
Agree wholeheartedly with earlier posts, which all dealt with
replacing loco gearing.
If they are valid at all, it is as a _cheap_ replacement(compared to
othercchoices) for the rubber-band drive in the RDCs -- unless you get
a kick out of the heel and toe motion!
==============================================================
Gerry Burridge Making the world safe for anarchy at:
P.O. Box 152 burr...@odyssee.net
Pte. Claire - Dorval, Que.
H9R 4N9
---------------------------------------------------------------
THolley100
Sorry Mr. Harman but I must resort to common decency practice and ask just who
the hell died and left you the expert on every thing on the net? Who told you
you could belittle every thing that you don't like yourself. You probably
didn't play well with other children did you. You probably still wet the bed,
maybe thats
why you spend so much time on the net running other folks down
for what they believe, or enjoy. I know the folks on the prototype modelers
group aren't all like you, I have no doubt that you know a great deal about
model railroading, but you don't know as much as you think you do.
Derrick J Brashear
Ernst employee, eh?
-D
JackN2MPU
>Subject: Re: Athearn/Ernst regearing?
>From: ke...@heinsohn.org.eliminate (R. Keith Heinsohn)
>Date: Fri, Nov 28, 1997 19:25 EST
>Message-id: <34906036....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>
>On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 04:16:46 GMT, sicko...@address.in.message (Ken
>Nelson) wrote:
>
>>I have used Ernst regear kits for Athearn Hustler, and for the Athearn RDC.
>>These were both originally rubber-band drive, so there was nowhere to go but
>
>>up...
>
>set for them, but my dealer is out of stock right now. This thread
>has been not so encouraging on this subject but still, I will try one
>anyway, thinking that even Ernst has to be better than the rubber band
>drive.
>
>....Keith (if responding, be sure to correct the reply address.)
>
>
To Keith (and others):
I've done Hustlers with both the Ernst kit and the NWSL power truck that is
supposed to be made specifically for the Hustler. They're both a pain in the
butt to work with. The Hustler requires more machining than NWSL says in the
paperwork that comes with the truck. You have to be VERY careful with
drilling/machining the sideframes on the Hustler. If the holes aren't aligned
precisely with each other, the power truck will bind up. Also, a LOT of extra
weight is required in the shell to make the truck track correctly and to
pick-up power. Fortunately, there's plenty of room; I added about 4 ounces to
mine.
The Ernst isn't as fussy with the weight, but as has been documented here,
the concentricity of the gears leaves a lot to be desired.
Working with either system is bound to have you putting a few new words and
phrases into the English language, and not all of them are nice.
Jack
Modeling the NYC & NYNH&H in HO and CPRail & D&H in N
NRA & NRA-ILA
ARRL - N2MPU
THolley100
no I dont work for Ernst, Athearn or any other manufacturer, nor do I write for
magazines either.
Charles A. Davis
THolley100 wrote:
>
> no I dont work for Ernst, Athearn or any other manufacturer, nor do I write for
> magazines either.
Amazing!!! You sure sound like someone whose 'Ox is getting gored'.
You don't sound like someone who has 'lurked' for very long either. If
you had, you would have been aware that almost every comment by Mr.
Harman, is in response to a question. Or is in the nature of 'A Report'
of a gathering that Mr. Harman has been to.
Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- c...@gamewood.net
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803
Aubrey Woodward
I run on a layout where a lot of consists are converted to ernst gearing
and they work quit well. I think the secret is to true up the motor in
a lathe ,true up the fly wheel relative to the shaft it is pressed on.
So chuck up the motor, true the Fly Wheel and then use NWSL universals
and really you have an impressive running unit that does not produce all
that much noise ( I really think a lot of the noise is drive shaft
vibration at high motor speed). The unit will run with brighter lights
and have more power. The speed is not all that unrealistic unless you
want to run trains like slot car speeds. For Mr. Harman to say they are
best thrown in the trash tells me he jumped to conclusions and did not
explore the options thoroughly. We are pleased with Ernst gearing and
what it does in our Locos out at the Joint Line. While I am not an Ernst
Investor or Employee, I do take offense to some fellows who I am sure are
great modelers calling our fleet of HO engines junk, gentlemen you don't
know what you are talking about somtimes.
Woody
Andy Harman
On 30 Nov 1997 02:02:18 GMT, DPA...@prodigy.com (Aubrey Woodward)
wrote:
>what it does in our Locos out at the Joint Line. While I am not an Ernst
>Investor or Employee, I do take offense to some fellows who I am sure are
>great modelers calling our fleet of HO engines junk, gentlemen you don't
>know what you are talking about somtimes.
This is incredible. WHERE DID I CALL YOUR FLEET OF ENGINES JUNK?
I said MY ATTEMPTS at using the Ernst gearing kits produced junk, and
I converted them back and gave up on the idea for a number of reasons,
only one of which I have mentioned. I won't put words in your mouth
if you don't put words in mine.
I stand by my non-recommendation. It would be dishonest and foolish
of me to recommend a product that I have had nothing but negative
experience with. And most of all, the idea that the Ernst set-up is a
drop-in to better performance, is something I would downplay... even
the proponents of the thing have admitted it takes some effort to
produce a decent runner. For me it took more than I was willing to
put out, and I suspect a lot of others will feel the same way. Anyone
wishing to find out about the Ernst gears has now heard both sides of
the story and can make up their own mind. Isn't that the purpose of
this forum?
Andy
P.S. somewhere I have at least two brand new, unopened Ernst gear kits
for the SD40-2, and a pile of parts from 2 or 3 other kits that are
probably all mixed together. I'll be happy to donate them to anyone
willing to pay postage which shouldn't be more than a couple of bucks.
These are very old Ernst kits from the first runs, circa 1982-83.
Arved Grass
THolley100 wrote in message
<19971129032...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Sorry Mr. Harman but I must resort to common decency practice and ask just
who
>the hell died and left you the expert on every thing on the net?
Who died and left you to judge Andy Harman?
>Who told you
>you could belittle every thing that you don't like yourself.
Reread Andy's comments in this thread that you are replying to. I just did.
He said the product had problems. Very legitamate problems. If you don't
think grinding away like an Osterizer is a bad thing, then it's not a bad
thing.
You probably
>didn't play well with other children did you. You probably still wet the
bed,
>maybe thats
>why you spend so much time on the net running other folks down
>for what they believe, or enjoy.
Sounds like a libel case to me, Andy. Or is it slander? I keep getting the
two confused.
In any case, Mr. Holley, you've done a great deal to define your character
to us here. It says a lot about your maturity when you take an opinion
about a product to be an attack on your ego, and then retaliate like this.
This comment is a pretty good arguement for many of us to put you on our
kill-files.
>I know the folks on the prototype modelers
>group aren't all like you, I have no doubt that you know a great deal about
>model railroading, but you don't know as much as you think you do.
Andy's been around the block a few times. Maybe you should back away from
that monitor and take a few walks around the block yourself.
- Arved KF4UCQ
--
JackN2MPU
>Subject: Re: Athearn/Ernst regearing?
>From: "Arved Grass" <pound...@spam.com>
>Date: Sun, Nov 30, 1997 14:06 EST
>Message-id: <65sdot$mc...@baker.se.mediaone.net>
>
lotsa snip
>
>Reread Andy's comments in this thread that you are replying to. I just did.
>He said the product had problems. Very legitamate problems.
>Andy's been around the block a few times. Maybe you should back away from
>that monitor and take a few walks around the block yourself.
>
>- Arved KF4UCQ
Arved:
What you've said is the absolute truth. Andy (and a few others around here)
has /have the guts to publicly call a pig a pig. I just wish I'd seen the post
your replying to; AOL misses posts like crazy (another pot I won't stir right
now). Can't rely on DejaNews either. AOL's web access is about as hit and miss
as finding a set of Ernst gears working out of the box.
As I said in a previous posts, I've tried Ernst and found them wanting. I'm
mechanically adept enough to make most things work, but this is supposed to be
a hobby, not work.
David Thuss
Andy Harman wrote:
> On 30 Nov 1997 02:02:18 GMT, DPA...@prodigy.com (Aubrey Woodward)
> wrote:
>
> >what it does in our Locos out at the Joint Line. While I am not an Ernst
> >Investor or Employee, I do take offense to some fellows who I am sure are
> >great modelers calling our fleet of HO engines junk, gentlemen you don't
> >know what you are talking about somtimes.
>
> I stand by my non-recommendation. Anyone
> wishing to find out about the Ernst gears has now heard both sides of
> the story and can make up their own mind. Isn't that the purpose of
> this forum?
>
>
> These are very old Ernst kits from the first runs, circa 1982-83.
Any noticeable differences in the "newer" Ernst kits? i.e., have they remedied the
eccentric gear problem referred to here?
>
>
>
--
Dave
PeterH5322
>>
As I said in a previous posts, I've tried Ernst and found them wanting. I'm
mechanically adept enough to make most things work, but this is supposed to be
a hobby, not work.
>>
Not intended as "flame bait", but the Ernst RDC kit really does work ... just
not with the instructions or parts they supply.
Paul Tackowiak
>
> I run on a layout where a lot of consists are converted to ernst gearing
> and they work quit well. I think the secret is to true up the motor in
> a lathe ,true up the fly wheel relative to the shaft it is pressed on.
> So chuck up the motor, true the Fly Wheel and then use NWSL universals
> and really you have an impressive running unit that does not produce all
> that much noise ( I really think a lot of the noise is drive shaft
> vibration at high motor speed). The unit will run with brighter lights
> and have more power. The speed is not all that unrealistic unless you
> want to run trains like slot car speeds. For Mr. Harman to say they are
> best thrown in the trash tells me he jumped to conclusions and did not
> explore the options thoroughly. We are pleased with Ernst gearing and
> Investor or Employee, I do take offense to some fellows who I am sure are
> great modelers calling our fleet of HO engines junk, gentlemen you don't
> know what you are talking about somtimes.
>
>
Ah, nothing like flame war on the old r.m.r. group to get myself going
on a Monday morning. It sounds like there are some rather hypersensitive
Ernst people out there (maybe they all get together for the holidays and
surf the net). Somehow Andy usually ends up in somebody's crosshairs,
but that's because he's outspoken, well respected and usually right. The
Ernst regearing kits ARE big disappointments. For what you're buying -
10 cents were of plastic - you get, well.. 10 cents worth of plastic,
not $8 worth of precision parts. If some people find they work because
they're willing to rebuild anything and everything that stands in their
way, fine, it's their time, but the vast majority of us would expect a
product to work as advertised, which in this case means you pop them in
and they give you improved performance - they don't, at least not in my
experiance and not for most others judging from this thread.
Possibly this could be a moot point if Athearn gets the Genisis out the
door and THOSE parts can be retrofitted onto the regular line (smart
move by Athearn - bad news for Ernst, NWSL, et al), but in the
meanwhile, Ernst should listen to their customers and get serious about
the quality modelers are now beginning to expect thanks to Kato, P2K,
Atlas, Stewart, etc. What was maybe passable 20-some years ago just
doesn't cut it anymore. You have to improve your product if you want to
stay in business.
By the way I think appologies are in order here as I can't recall Andy
ever denigrating the hard work or craftsmanship of a fellow modeler in
this news group. Products and manufacturers are fair game, on the other
hand, and if you fall into one of these catagories then you need to come
clean.
Paul Tackowiak
Walter Freedman
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:51:51 GMT, aharman...@one.net (Andy Harman)
wrote (see below):
I had the same experience as Andy - the Earst gears have alot of play
in them and are tricky to install. Mine sit on my junk pile.
>I said MY ATTEMPTS at using the Ernst gearing kits produced junk, and
>I converted them back and gave up on the idea for a number of reasons,
>only one of which I have mentioned. I won't put words in your mouth
>if you don't put words in mine.
>
>I stand by my non-recommendation.
Walt (remove anti-spam "xyz" when replying - tx)
David Breeze
JackN2MPU <jack...@aol.com> writes
>In article <19971201081...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, peter...@aol.com
>(PeterH5322) writes:
>>>
<snip>
>
>Not intended as "flame bait", but the Ernst RDC kit really does
>>work ... just
>not with the instructions or parts they supply.
>
>Jack
>Jack
>Modeling the NYC & NYNH&H in HO and CPRail & D&H in N
>NRA & NRA-ILA
>ARRL - N2MPU
at the weekend. It has a slatted wooden base, the instructions included
the classic line:
"Assemble rails B inside rails A, NOT as illustrated in the diagram"
And sure enough, in the diagram rails B were drawn outside rails A...
Fortunately, the longitudinal members of the bed were called 'rails',
enabling me to keep this vaguely on-topic...
--
Dave Breeze
Glasgow,
Scotland D&RGW in N-scale, status: lots of plywood, some track.
KB2BDB
David Breeze <da...@sdscom.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
Fortunately, the longitudinal members of the bed were called
>'rails',
enabling me to keep this vaguely on-topic...
...And, since what we call "ties" here in the US, I believe you call
"sleepers", right? And, since you use a futon to sleep on,.. well, I don't see
anything off topic here!
Scott
Walter Freedman
On 4 Dec 1997 09:18:31 GMT, DPA...@prodigy.com (Aubrey Woodward)
wrote (see below):
>(snip)... The point is
>of course, that if done with care and with some effort the regearing of
>Athearn Locos produce very favorable results. You will end up with a
>better product than an out of the box Athearn.
Aubrey, perhaps a positive end to this heated discussion would be for
you to share with us some of thje special care that you took to get
favorable results. I thought I followed the directions that came with
the gears but did not end up with a favorable result. Do you the time
to share your secrets with us - I for one would appreciate that.
Fritz Milhaupt
Yes, please do!
I gave up on the Ernst gears about eight years ago after spending an
entire weekend trying to get a GP-35 to run well with them. If there is
a methodical way to get them to work without spending 8-10 hours per
loco on 'em, I'd probably look at them again.
-fm
To reply via e-mail, remove "lma." from the return address shown above.
Webmaster - Pere Marquette Historical Society Web Site, at:
http://www.rust.net/~milhaupt/pmhs/
Aubrey Woodward
To Mr Harman in response to your response, I am sorry YOUR ATTEMPTS at
installing ernst gearing have proved to be a failure. I will repeat one
more time that I have seen some very good results using Ernst Gearing. I
have a very nice running 4 unit consist of SP Dash 9s that have Ernst
Gearing and some SD40s that do very well. Several of the fellows here in
town have some very nice locos equipped with Ernst Gears. The point is
Athearn Locos produce very favorable results. You will end up with a
better product than an out of the box Athearn.
Gearing produced junk. Why else would you say what you said? It seems
the message you are trying to convey to all that read your writings are
that Ernst Geared Locos are to be trashed. I am sorry that you and your
supporters can not stand to have some one on this newsgroup disagree with
you. I tend to agree that it takes extra effort to make anything that
cost $8 work like a Kato but as I am sure you know, you are only going to
get out of a modeling project what you put in to it. Ernst Gears do work
in spite of what you say to the contrary.
I invite you to come visit our railroad and see for yourself if you are
ever in Western Colorado. Enough said,
Woody
JackN2MPU
>Subject: Re: Athearn/Ernst regearing?
>From: DPA...@prodigy.com (Aubrey Woodward)
>Date: Thu, Dec 4, 1997 04:18 EST
>Message-id: <665sh7$api$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>
Woody:
If you had bothered to really read the posts in this thread, you'd have found
out that just about everyone that has tried to use Ernst gears has had
problems. Try DejaNews for a review. You'll find out that Andy was not the only
one to have problems.
How much time did you spend working on you locos? My rate of pay at my last
job was $18 an hour. So let's say I put in 4 hours per loco. That's $72. Add
that to the cost of the Athearn and you have just about the cost of a Kato.
Also, it was not only Andy that said that Ernst produced junk; most of us
have. Nowhere did we really say that Ernst geared locos are to be trashed; just
the gearing. Replace 'em with NWSL gears or gearboxes.
Basically, we are trying to do is to help you see is that the emperor has no
clothes. Ernst gear and quality are mutually exclusive; never had it, never
will.
Andy Harman
Your points are acknowledged. As I said, I got reasonably good
results out of the 6-axle units I installed the gearing in... an SD9
and a U28C or U33C (forget which, it was a long time ago). The units
ran very slow and made a lot of noise, nice for a drag engine but I
didn't experience the "whiplash" problem in the 6-axles units.
Now, the thing is, I don't really have much use for road engines with
a top speed of about 35 SMPH... so I changed them back to standard
gearing, they were only experiments. Where I had hoped to get some
good results was in the switchers, and that's where I got the biggest
dissapointment. Yes, I did give up on them - too soon? Not really,
because I'm satisfied with the many other performance options out
there (including Kato and P2K switcher drives and even using them to
repower Athearn).
But the main reason I didn't pursue them any further is a combination
of two factors: 1) the performance was not acceptable, especially in
the 4-axle units; and 2) I didn't really "need" any road units with a
32:1 gear ratio. I realize that performance could have been improved
(although I'm not sure what to do with the out-of-round gears that
have been reported, other than throw them away) with an amount of
effort, but it's up to me to decide how much effort is worth it. In
my case, it was clearly more effort (and not knowing how much) than it
was worth for something I didn't really feel a need for.
BTW, have you ever seen one of the Proto Power West micromotor
switcher drives? I have a couple of these I got a fire sale prices,
and they are a lot of fun at train shows. Top speed is about 15 SMPH,
and that's with the motor screaming. They have an interesting system
of reduction gears built into and around the motor. They end up using
the stock Athearn trucks and gears. For raw torque, forget it as this
will quickly overload the motor. The instruction sheet warns not to
pull more than 3-4 cars at a time, or run the thing anywhere near full
speed. This severe restriction limits its usefulness, but it's still
an interesting little showpiece whenever I bring a switching layout to
a show. I guess I feel the same about the Ernst (when they work),
they are an interesting novelty item, but I'd never standardize a
whole layout on their system... for one thing, I'd be limited to ONLY
Athearn based drives for m.u. purposes, and that shoots it down right
there.
Andy
Arved Grass
>The point is
>of course, that if done with care and with some effort the regearing of
>Athearn Locos produce very favorable results. You will end up with a
>better product than an out of the box Athearn.
That's a matter of opinion. Even if everything were done as intended, you'd
have a locomotive with a tremendous gear reduction. The result would be a
locomotive that couldn't be run with any other brand model. Some find that
the difference in stock gearing between Athearn (12:1) and Atlas/Kato/Roco
(14:1) make the two groups brands incompatible with each other (my
experience is, that with a good motor, they run together just fine).
While Ernst does provide greater gear reduction, it goes way too far. If
someone could produce a regear kit for an Athearn engine that would be
drop-in like an Ernst kit, and provide the "majical" 14:1 gear ratio, I'd
buy them, and I think many others here would too.
>As to putting words in your mouth, I understood you to say that Ernst
>Gearing produced junk. Why else would you say what you said? It seems
>the message you are trying to convey to all that read your writings are
>that Ernst Geared Locos are to be trashed.
No, the regearing kits should be trashed. Eccentric gears have no place in
a transmission. Gears that aren't true have no place in a transmission.
Period. The locomotives ARE salvagable. All you have to do is replace the
Ernst gear kit with the stock Athearn gears. Want to splurge? Replace with
Lifelike Proto2000 gear parts.
> I am sorry that you and your
>supporters can not stand to have some one on this newsgroup disagree with
>you.
You're welcome to your own opinion. You're not welcome to personally attack
someone. Had Andy said you were an idiot for liking Ernst gears, I would
have been just as quickly to your defence. If you go to Deja News, and
review all the postings Andy's done, you'll see he doesn't attack people (at
least, not publically in the newsgroups - what he does via e-mail is his own
business). That's one of the reasons why Andy commands a mediocum of
respect here.
> I tend to agree that it takes extra effort to make anything that
>cost $8 work like a Kato but as I am sure you know, you are only going to
>get out of a modeling project what you put in to it.
Since the gear ratio in the Ernst kit isn't 14:1, it can never work like a
Kato. Kato's also work right out of the box 99% of the time, while I
beleive a survey of modelers here would show that Ernst regear kits "work"
less than 50% of the time, and after a lot of work on the modeler's part.
> Ernst Gears do work
>in spite of what you say to the contrary.
Perhaps if I chucked every gear into a lathe and rebored and bushed the
holes and lap the gear teeth, I could make the gears act as intended. I'd
then have Athearn locomotives with absolutely no hope of operating with
other quality brands without (a) going to DCC or (b) waiting for Ernst to
come out with regear kits for other brands of locomotives.
>I invite you to come visit our railroad and see for yourself if you are
>ever in Western Colorado. Enough said,
Is the hobby ready for the Kato/Ernst shootout? SD45s at 20 paces, eh? :-)
Happy Holidays,
- Arved
F. DABNEY
On 4 Dec 1997, Aubrey Woodward wrote:
> To Mr Harman in response to your response, I am sorry YOUR ATTEMPTS at
> installing ernst gearing have proved to be a failure. I will repeat one
> more time that I have seen some very good results using Ernst Gearing. I
> have a very nice running 4 unit consist of SP Dash 9s that have Ernst
> Gearing and some SD40s that do very well. Several of the fellows here in
> town have some very nice locos equipped with Ernst Gears. The point is
> of course, that if done with care and with some effort the regearing of
> Athearn Locos produce very favorable results. You will end up with a
> better product than an out of the box Athearn.
> As to putting words in your mouth, I understood you to say that Ernst
> Gearing produced junk. Why else would you say what you said? It seems
> the message you are trying to convey to all that read your writings are
> that Ernst Geared Locos are to be trashed. I am sorry that you and your
> supporters can not stand to have some one on this newsgroup disagree with
> you. I tend to agree that it takes extra effort to make anything that
> cost $8 work like a Kato but as I am sure you know, you are only going to
> get out of a modeling project what you put in to it. Ernst Gears do work
> in spite of what you say to the contrary.
> I invite you to come visit our railroad and see for yourself if you are
> ever in Western Colorado. Enough said,
NOt to defend Andy, who can defend himself should he see the need, but the
consensus is that Ernst gear sets are very very variable in quality. My
first one, I liked, and I hadn't gotten another since I'd admit to using.
So far as "care in assembly" is concerned, if gear castings are
off-center, no amount of fiddling will cure it, although replacement
might.
One other point, please. I am not castigating your models, your club or
your standards, just observing a simple fact: There are some of us who
regard Kato drives as being marginal as regards noise and smoothness. ON
the other hand, some of us are totally immune to the subject. I happen to
like hobbytown drives, in spite of the fact that many of them sound like a
blendor full of gravel, and had once modified a dual motor "DD-40a" so
that it rumbled enough to literally shake the layout climbing a grade
with a heavy train. And most of the criticism of the Ernst drives is that
they are too noisy. For some, they probably are. For me, it was that
they were simply too sloppy, too unpridictable.
Caveat emptor as usual, is the guideline on these. Try one, and if it
works try another. You might also try another if the first doesn't work,
but if you have a fleet, I would not suggest getting enough to convert
them all at one time.
GP
The newer Hobbytown drives with the "can" motor are LOTS quiter than the old
open frame motor. I have a F7A+B drive, motor in the "A", lead in the "B",
it will litterally pull the couplers out of the car behind it (If too many
cars are there, and it takes well over 100), draws less than 1/2 Amp at full
slip, and is quiet as a mouse. My experience with the Ernst kits was that 2
kits in 2 RDC's, both with lurching due to off center axel gears, and not
being able to fix it EVEN with a lathe, a milling machine and other tools, I
returned to the rubber band drive.
Gary
F. DABNEY wrote in message ...
David Thuss
> had once modified a dual motor "DD-40a" so
> that it rumbled enough to literally shake the layout climbing a grade
> with a heavy train. And most of the criticism of the Ernst drives is that
> they are too noisy. For some, they probably are. For me, it was that
> they were simply too sloppy, too unpridictable.
>
> Fred D.
> Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
Back in the 70's I removed the motor from one of several Model Power FA2's I
had at the time and installed it in an Athearn FP-45. These motors were a
large diameter motor and just fit inside the wide body engines. The
installation turned an otherwise mediocre engine into one of my favorites.
The speed was lowered considerably and at crawling speeds you could barely see
the engine moving. The Model Power engines (Sharks and FA's) were always great
performers but the body shells left a lot to be desired.--
Dave
GP
I milled a MONSTER flywheel for one of the FP45's, got Hobbytown like
performance
Gary
David Thuss wrote in message <348897E5...@ptdprolog.net>...
Pooch
Aubrey Woodward wrote:
>
> To Mr Harman in response to your response, I am sorry YOUR ATTEMPTS at
> installing ernst gearing have proved to be a failure. I will repeat one
> more time that I have seen some very good results using Ernst Gearing. I
> have a very nice running 4 unit consist of SP Dash 9s that have Ernst
> Gearing and some SD40s that do very well. Several of the fellows here in
> town have some very nice locos equipped with Ernst Gears. The point is
> of course, that if done with care and with some effort the regearing of
> Athearn Locos produce very favorable results. You will end up with a
> better product than an out of the box Athearn.
> As to putting words in your mouth, I understood you to say that Ernst
> Gearing produced junk. Why else would you say what you said? It seems
> the message you are trying to convey to all that read your writings are
> that Ernst Geared Locos are to be trashed. I am sorry that you and your
> supporters can not stand to have some one on this newsgroup disagree with
> you. I tend to agree that it takes extra effort to make anything that
> cost $8 work like a Kato but as I am sure you know, you are only going to
> get out of a modeling project what you put in to it. Ernst Gears do work
> in spite of what you say to the contrary.
> I invite you to come visit our railroad and see for yourself if you are
> ever in Western Colorado. Enough said,
>
If you have some "trick" to installing them in a timely manner in which
they do actually work I for one would be interested in knowing about it.
I have tried without luck to install them on several occaisions but
could not get them to work properly or at all!
James D Thompson
Arved Grass wrote:
> Some find that the difference in stock gearing between Athearn (12:1)
> and Atlas/Kato/Roco (14:1) make the two groups brands incompatible with
> each other (my experience is, that with a good motor, they run together
> just fine).
I thought that the Kato/Atlas/whatever used a 13:1 gear ratio. Has
anyone ever taken the gears out and actually counted?
David Thompson
F. DABNEY
I haven't checked Kato, but yes. Athearn is 12:1 while the Roco engines
had a 14:1 ratio.
I'd had problem with Roco models doubling with Athearn due to the lack of
flywheels on the Roco. As far as motors are concerned, many of the early
Athearn had motors that were much faster than the Roco, which combined
with the gear ratio, made them nearly incompatible. However, in succesive
refinements, Athearn's motors have been getting slower, drawing less
current for a given track voltage and load. Each revision has seemed to
have more turns of finer wire, and possibly more efficient magnets as
well.
Aubrey Woodward
In my other 2 posts on this subject I taken the position that Ernst Gears
improve the performance of an out of the box Athearn. This was and is my
only intent. I do not have any reason to attack the person of Andy H. or
any one else. I also do not intend to put down other makes of Loco (I
have Atlas C30s and more Kato Locos than I care to admit to the better
half of the household)
Here is what several of us do: In order to get an Ernst equipped consist
to perform to the max I/we put the motor and fly wheel in a Sherline
lathe and true up the fly wheel. This is done because we think that when
the fly wheels are pressed on to the motor shaft that the shaft is warped
or twisted just enough to cause vibration at high motor speed. So the
result of truing is that the fly wheel is round with respect to the motor
and shaft. If the fly wheel ever moves or is twisted on the shaft the
fly wheel will again have to be trued up. We use Northwest Shortline
Universals to help control whiplash and Northwest Shortline 42" wheels
for better electrical pick up. Also add as much weight as possible in
the body, add a lighting kit and the results will be great. There will
be a break-in period and of course probably some adjustments. The results
will produce a locomotive that will make a noise that is acceptable but
will not get the horrible sounding gear grind. I cannot defend off
center out of round Ernst Gears, I would return them just as I return any
other defective products. I have had out of round - off center problems
with Jaybee Wheels and I return them to the Company.
To those who are offended that we would defend Ernst Gear installations I
ask that you not take it as character defamation but at the same time
please don't get on our case because we like the results. I realize Mr
Harman has built up a strong credibility among all of us but we all have
the right to express our opinons. We all have a choice of where we spend
our modeling money, and we out at the Joint Line are happy with the
results of Ernst Gear installations in Athearn Locos.
Woody