George Sellios' layout
Digital Railroader
Manchester - frankly, I was disappointed, after all of the praise he's been
getting. Sure, the urban scenery looks great, but his locomotives run
like... crap! Herky-jerky, especially at low speeds, stops that are way too
abrupt, and starts that go from zero to full power in just seconds. If this
is the best he can get his steam locomotives to run, it's no wonder he's
considering the early diesel era!
The Conductor
Digital Railroader LLC
dr-new...@wi.rr.com
Brian Paul Ehni
HBmQa.103873$fe.22...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, "Digital Railroader"
<dr-new...@wi.rr.com> wrote:
As I understand it, George isn't particularly interested in the operational
aspects. At least, that's what I gather from other posts on the subject.
Brian
Charles Seyferlich
Judging from what I have seen of various tapes & TV programs few model
railroads, regardless of scale, seem at all realistic in operation.
All seem to start with a jerk and sort of lurch along as seemingly
affected by electrical pick-up problems. Besides, none show signs of
having weight. They look like track bound baloons.
I suspect most of these models seem much more realistic "in person".
Movies & video don't seem to efectivly capture operation of model
trains.
Ctyclsscs
>>aspects
I think that was particularly the case when George first started building the
F&SM, but I think he's become more interested over the years. We visited the
layout in February and everything sure seemed to run smoothly while we were
there.
Jim
LarEyman
trains ran great as well...
Larry at Papastrains.com
Howard Zane
all, Mr. Digital Railroader LLC, I look forward to seeing Keller's video on
your layout. Critisim is quite easy. building The Franklin and South
Manchester...........another story!!!
In my opinion everything about George's layout is magnificent, and he has
inspired many in this hobby....a feat few have achieved since John Allen. If
you believe in past lives, perhaps Sellios was Michaelangelo. He is that
good!!
On the other hand, being a survivor of two Allen Keller video tapings
(volumes 12 & 44), rest assure that jerky and seemingly poor running
locomotives usually have nothing to do with the modeler. Zane's law #38 is "
whenever you show your trains off, they will mis-perform!!" When being
video taped, compound that statement by a factor of 10. During the taping I
could swear that the trains would jump off of the track......even when
standing still. When Keller and crew would leave after the day of shooting,
we would have to reposition trains for the next days shoot which sometimes
meant backing 25 car trains over 20 scale miles.............nary a
problem!!! Next day.....more wrecks!!!!!!!!!!! Why, who knows? Gremlins? I
have no idea. I do know many other Keller surviviors with similar tales. All
have nothing to do with Allen, as he is quite sensitive to modeler's
equipment and with the possible exception of heat from lights, nothing else
could possibly cause malfunctions................but it happens just the
same.
There are many railroads that have perfectly running locos and equipment,
and maybe you should spend more time there, but if excellent world-class
modeling is your thing...........re-watch Allen Keller's video on George
Sellios. He is one of a kind. Also there is a third volume on his layout
which I most definitely recommend.......and somehow the locos run rather
well.
HZ
--
Howard Zane
5236 Thunderhill Road
Columbia, MD 21045
410-730-1036
"Digital Railroader" <dr-new...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:HBmQa.103873$fe.22...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
MrRathburne
What is the point?
Show us the pictures of YOUR layout...............
"Digital Railroader" <dr-new...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<HBmQa.103873$fe.22...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
Digital Railroader
another useless reply? BTW, show me your layout!
"MrRathburne" <rat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:df7ef1cd.03071...@posting.google.com...
Digital Railroader
news:Q6qdnexkuoc...@comcast.com...
> Sellios. He is one of a kind. Also there is a third volume on his layout
> which I most definitely recommend.......and somehow the locos run rather
> well.
Perhaps I should have started with #3, since #2 was taped some seven years
ago. George admitted in his interview that there were some problems with
track and operation. For one thing, his yard had lots of #4 turnouts, which
he referred to as a definite "no-no" for steam locomotives. His goal was to
finish the layout in 5 years and then spend his time fine tuning and
maintaining it.
Steve Woodward
inject a little humor. :-)
Steve W
In article <v2FQa.214298$jT4.4...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, Digital
Roger T.
layout along those lines.
Like John Allan and Malcolm Furlow, the modelling is too much of a
caricature for my liking.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
Marc
a fantastic layout. I could spend weeks admiring the modeling, the
details, and the awesome weathering and scenery. The fact that a few
old brass steamers are not smooth is not something to slam anyone for.
Marc
Sierra Valley Railroad
Eric
"All have nothing to do with Allen, as he is quite sensitive to
modeler's
equipment and with the possible exception of heat from lights, nothing
else
could possibly cause malfunctions................but it happens just
the
same."
I'd vote for the lights being the problem. Heat up the rails and
soften the plastic ties causing kinks and gauge problems.
Eric
Dennis E. Golden
depression era -- not my favorite era to model either. Given that however
I'm tremendously impressed with George's work.
Den
"Roger T." <roge...@highspeedplus.com> wrote in message
news:bfa541cf9ffd7692...@grapevine.islandnet.com...
Roger T.
"Dennis E. Golden" <dgo...@warwick.net> wrote in message
news:3f13...@news1.warwick.net...
> Roger, I'm not so sure that it is a caricature as more a depiction of the
> depression era -- not my favorite era to model either. Given that however
> I'm tremendously impressed with George's work.
Dennis, I agree that it depicts the depression era but comparing the layout
with photos taken at the time, it does seem to be over done. It looks far
too run down. I tell yeah, I wouldn't want to live in any of his modelled
cities. :-)
BTW, I know it's "John Allen" and not "Allan".
ernie puddick
scenery looks great, but his locomotives run
I've been to exhibitions where the arm chair experts pontificate on what
someone else should do with their layout. On one occassion the operator
listened intently then leaned over the layout and just said; "OK where's
your f*****g layout then!".
As another contributor stated, get a camera or visitor near a model railroad
and things just go wrong. Remember it's a hobby, fun, a break fron the
stress of real life.
Ernie
Currently modelling NS in N
MrRathburne
Tell you what, next time you witness shoplifting, yell out 'stop
theif'.
You will then be arrested for shoplifting since you're guilty of the
crime too.
Makes sense? As much as your BS below.
And this is how you hope to boost users of your digital newsletter or
whatever it is?
"Digital Railroader" <dr-new...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<v2FQa.214298$jT4.4...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
Larry Blanchard
roge...@highspeedplus.com says...
> Dennis, I agree that it depicts the depression era but comparing the layout
> with photos taken at the time, it does seem to be over done. It looks far
> too run down. I tell yeah, I wouldn't want to live in any of his modelled
> cities. :-)
>
I've seen places in Louisville and Chicago back then (and LA today) that
weren't much better.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
Daniel A. Mitchell
George's scale, becomes an art form. It can be appreciated even if it's
not YOUR 'thing'. The same was true of John Allen, and many others.
ALL these great layouts are 'charaicatures' in some form, as are almost
all complete layouts in any form. Each reflects the personality and
interests of it's builder. Most everyone also HAS to apply selective
compressions and other tricks to build a working model railroad layout.
You might make a small diorama to exact scale (sort of), but a whole
railroad would be near impossible.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Digital Railroader
news:bfa541cf9ffd7692...@grapevine.islandnet.com...
> layout along those lines.
>
> Like John Allan and Malcolm Furlow, the modelling is too much of a
> caricature for my liking.
I agree - it's just way over the top for me. I love to look at them, but
can't even begin to want to emulate them. George admits that he's received
criticism for having too much detail, and he has scaled back, with what he
says have been good results. I wish they would have pointed out these less
detailed scenes, because everything looks the same as to level of detail,
especially when the camera is trying to keep up with a locomotive that
apparently only runs well at full speed.
All of the folks you mention have been great at modeling. However, I've
heard that Furlow never actually completed any of his magazine layouts to
the point of operation. They were essentially dioramas!
I think that holding Allen, Furlow and Sellios up as a watermark could
actually discourage potential modelers, especially those who have meager
budgets for their hobby. Many inner city kids probably never give model
railroading a second thought when they see the "empires" touted in the
magazines. And having the "poster child" of the "World's Greatest Hobbby" be
an older gent holding an engine that's bigger than he is (grin) only
reinforces the notion that this is a hobby for the rich with time to burn.
Digital Railroader
news:e512b63a.03071...@posting.google.com...
Are you implying that I slammed George? Did you actually read how I praised
his scenery? Are you one of those participants here who loves to take
opinions out of context?
BTW, how much of a celebrity would George have become if his scenery was
sub-par, but his locos ran as smooth as silk? I'm guessing that he would not
be one today, because you can't translate smooth running equipment into
printed form. That's why I like layout videos - they give you a chance to
see the flaws in a layout that has every reader's jaw on the floor. They
help me appreciate that if you can't possibly match the level of detail of a
George Sellios layout, but you've done pretty good laying track and your
steam engines run smoothly, you deserve some praise too, even if you never
will be on the cover of MR! ;-)
Pacific95
>I think that holding Allen, Furlow and Sellios up as a watermark could
>actually discourage potential modelers, especially those who have meager
>budgets for their hobby.
This is getting goofy. You are reaching on this point with nothing
in sight to grab onto. In the words of that great philosopher Dean
Martin... "when a whole room full of people are telling you that you
stink you go sit down". And he was right.
-John
LarEyman
because of his layout, but because of his awesome Fine Scale Miniature
craftsman kits. As George has told me personally his layout only started out
being a display case for his kits and his magic for detail. The operation
portion of the layout was never a real concern in the beginning. I have not
talked to George in a while but he may have a different perspective now.
No matter what George Sellios does it is not all that far from perfection in my
humble opinion.
Larry at Papastrains.com
Digital Railroader
Digital Railroader
news:20030715180834...@mb-m25.aol.com...
> This is getting goofy. You are reaching on this point with nothing
> in sight to grab onto. In the words of that great philosopher Dean
> Martin... "when a whole room full of people are telling you that you
> stink you go sit down". And he was right.
I take it you don't agree with the concept of "free speech". If you don't
happen to agree, you'd waste a lot less time if you stopped tossing around
rude expletives and actually said WHY you don't agree. Better yet - ignore
the thread!!!
Dennis E. Golden
any way shape or form. On the contrary, I'm impressed as hell by his work. I
also think his structure are some of the best craftsman kits ever made. I
only said that I don't personally care to model the depression era.
Den
"LarEyman" <lare...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030715181235...@mb-m11.aol.com...
Mark Mathu
> Bought Allen Keller's video of Part 2 of George Sellios' Franklin &
> Manchester - frankly, I was disappointed, after all of the praise he's been
> getting. Sure, the urban scenery looks great, but his locomotives run
> like... crap! Herky-jerky, especially at low speeds, stops that are way too
> abrupt, and starts that go from zero to full power in just seconds. If this
> is the best he can get his steam locomotives to run, it's no wonder he's
> considering the early diesel era!
Has there been praise of his locomotive operations?
All the (well-deserved) praise I've seen has been for his scenery.
Mark Mathu
> All of the folks you mention have been great at modeling. However, I've
> heard that Furlow never actually completed any of his magazine layouts to
> the point of operation. They were essentially dioramas!
That's an interesting proposition... has anyone *actually* seen any of Malcom
Furlow's layouts that he built for MR magazine on display and in operation?
Roger T.
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message
news:Ln6Ra.11489$7O4....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
No, but all of his track plans showed a remarkable absence of any operating
potential.
Mike Tennent
>"Marc" <marcu...@kp.org> wrote in message
>news:e512b63a.03071...@posting.google.com...
>> You tell him, Howard. Geez, what is the point to that! The FSM is
>> a fantastic layout. I could spend weeks admiring the modeling, the
>> details, and the awesome weathering and scenery. The fact that a few
>> old brass steamers are not smooth is not something to slam anyone for.
>
>Are you implying that I slammed George? Did you actually read how I praised
>his scenery? Are you one of those participants here who loves to take
>opinions out of context?
Well, this is what you wrote:
> frankly, I was disappointed, after all of the praise he's been
> getting. Sure, the urban scenery looks great, but his locomotives run
> like... crap! Herky-jerky, especially at low speeds, stops that are way too
> abrupt, and starts that go from zero to full power in just seconds. If this
> is the best he can get his steam locomotives to run, it's no wonder he's
> considering the early diesel era!
Not exactly a compliment...
Perhaps some folks may have read that and reacted?
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
Operating Traffic Lights
Crossbucks
Special Effects Lighting
http://www.ironpeng.com/ipe
MrRathburne
Big G scale one.
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message news:<Ln6Ra.11489$7O4....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
Achmed Ptooey
> If you believe in past lives, perhaps Sellios was Michaelangelo.
> He is that good!!
Howard, have you upped your medication recently? First it was
the Trix Big Boy as the greatest locomotive model in history,
and now George Sellios is compared to the man who carved David
and painted the Sistine Chapel. What's next? Are you going to
compare Irv Athearn to George Washington? You should hold back
on the superlatives in case you really need them in a future
emergency, like the release of a really super passenger car or
a working scale coupler.
Ptooey
Howard Zane
What have I done to piss you off? This is the second time you are on my
case. If you have a Trix Big Boy, which I doubt if you have, or if you have
visited George's layout, which I also doubt if you have, you may sing a
different tune. I know of no other finer locomotive today considering price
and value, or layout as fine as Sellios'. Perhaps my descriptions are a bit
colorful, but I admire great work and products. Actually should Athearn had
run for president today, he'd get my vote. Try this one out........how about
a statue of Irv in front of NMRA headquaters. Since he almost singlehanded
from a small garage quite literally was responsible for and planted the
seeds to this hobby most of love.
Lighten up a bit..and go play with your train set, but somehow I do not
think you have one!
HZ
--
Howard Zane
5236 Thunderhill Road
Columbia, MD 21045
410-730-1036
"Achmed Ptooey" <pto...@phlegm.net> wrote in message
news:3F157EC1...@phlegm.net...
Christian
> Are you going to
> > compare Irv Athearn to George Washington?
I can just see Irv trying to throw a dollar across the Potomic - with a
rubber band attached!
CTucker
NY
LarEyman
I learned he could do about anything. He could probably do that with one hand
while holding his cigar in the other.
Larry at papastrains.com
Achmed Ptooey
Howard, what makes you think I'm mad at you? I just think that
you're completely off base about Sellios and Trix. George is a
great artist, but he's no model railroader. (If you think trains
are important, which I do.) John Allen by comparison was almost
a prototype modeler. And the Trix Bog Boy -- in a couple years
those will be on the flea market tables for $299... Why you
think they are better than anything Proto2000 has done is
beyond me. Even Bachmann has Trix overmatched, on quality no
less than value.
Now go back to your custom structures... very nice work by the
way. (See? I'm not mad at you.)
Ptooey
Froggy
>
>Howard, what makes you think I'm mad at you? I just think that
>you're completely off base about Sellios and Trix. George is a
>great artist, but he's no model railroader...............
There is a quality to Sellios' work which has not been mentioned and which I think
should be I have mentioned it here before, but it has been a long time.
There is no question of Sellios' artistic ability. He is truly a master of his art.
However............
He suffers from a warped sense of time. He is anachronistic, if you will.
His time is set in the 1930s, yet his models are modeled as they appear today, almost
seventy years later. In the 30s they were not the run-down, decrepit, flea-bitten,
dirty places that Sellios depicts in his work. He needs to either get rid of his
railroad rolling stock and replace it with much more modern stuff, diesels, etc.; or,
clean up his city. One or the other. The way it is right now does not work.
Sellios gets an A+ for his artistic ability and talent.
He gets an F for his chronology.
.
..............F>
Pacific95
>His time is set in the 1930s, yet his models are modeled as they appear
>today, almost seventy years later.
It all looks like one of those OLD Popeye cartoons.
(The Fleischer ones). Broken boards and brick showing
through the stucco. I'm sure if the tires on the autos
were a bit bigger he would have band-aid patches on them.
And this is how I am doing my On30, except in a western,
waterfront setting. Going for a look, not so much for realism.
I like to watch the (otherwise awful) Popeye movie from 1980
to get ideas. There was a movie production designer named
Wolf Kroeger that was (still is?) a genius. He also did the
Robert DeNiro "We're no Angels". So to heck with realism.
I do THAT in N scale.
-John
MrRathburne
I am interested in the Big Boy but why do you say this?
Achmed Ptooey <pto...@phlegm.net> wrote in message news:<3F1837DB...@phlegm.net>...
Roger T.
<>
> There is a quality to Sellios' work which has not been mentioned and which
I think
> should be I have mentioned it here before, but it has been a long time.
> There is no question of Sellios' artistic ability. He is truly a master
of his art.
> However............
> He suffers from a warped sense of time. He is anachronistic, if you will.
> His time is set in the 1930s, yet his models are modeled as they appear
today, almost
> seventy years later. In the 30s they were not the run-down, decrepit,
flea-bitten,
> dirty places that Sellios depicts in his work. He needs to either get rid
of his
> railroad rolling stock and replace it with much more modern stuff,
diesels, etc.; or,
> clean up his city. One or the other. The way it is right now does not
work.
> Sellios gets an A+ for his artistic ability and talent.
> He gets an F for his chronology.
I wrote something to this effect at the beginning of the thread.
I said something about not ever seeing photos of the depression where cities
looked as run down as they do in George's cities. As you mention above,
these were well maintained, or at least maintained buildings up to the
depression, they weren't run down like George depicts them.
However, it's not just George that does this, look at most narrow gaugers,
they usually model run down and decrepit railways, even thought they may be
modelling it at its busiest times.
As you say A+ for artistic ability, F for chronology.
Howard Zane
Thanks for the compliment on structures. If you know who I am, then you
must know that I'm an out of production (used) brass dealer, collector and
operator. www.brasstrains.com. A natural for someone like myself would be to
put down non-brass models. I deal with and collect brass, because of my
fondness of quality and as to me brass models are wonderful limited run
works of art vs. production. I've been operating brass models for decades on
my layout. Some are great......others not, but can usually be tweeked almost
to perfection (except when being video taped). I'm also quite involved with
promoting the hobby through The Timonium Show www.gsmts.com. When an
exceptional product enters the market, it usually gets my attention and many
times I will aquire it. I was skeptical of the Trix Big Boy, but did not
turn one down when offered to me at cost. It has it's baggage like small
drivers, permanently attached tender and a few other minor sores, but when I
ran it........I was and still am impressed. It has run for hours pulling
long trains..........although I admit it looks strange in an Appalachain
setting, but it is my layout and if I wanted to paint it pink I could do
it............damn the critisim!!! You had mentioned comparing it to Life
Like and Bachmann. This is a die cast model of very fine quality, and except
for the plastic cab, the cast work is quite good as is the engineering. It
runs better than just about anything I've ever played with. I do not think
many will be found on show tables for $299,
but who really knows now?? I do concur that the steam models coming from
Life Like, Bachmann, and BLI are quite good........but you are comparing
diecast metal to injection plastic. Fairer would be compairing to brass. I
also agree that all are excellent values, but I find the Trix model an
exceptional value considering price and quality.
When I returned from a visit to Sellios' layout, some how mine seemed like a
loop around the Christmas tree. I've heard many negative comments on his
layout........."runs poorly, poor electronics, overdone detailing, mixed
periods and not historically correct"..........and so forth. Folks such as
yourself have a right to comment... just as I have on how good it is. Being
a modeler and professional structure builder, I could not help but admire
his work. I may be coming from a different disipline than most, but let me
tell you first hand.................Sellios is a master craftsman and I have
seen many since I entered the hobby in 1962. His work is incredibly fine and
if model railroading were considered a fine art, he'd be at the very top of
the list of artisans. I had a choice when I first saw his
layout.......intimidation or inspiration! I choose the latter and have never
looked back. As a small note.........as a kid we had a summer home in NH and
during the 40's we'd pass through many of the run down manufacturing cities
in MA and southern NH. I was not around during depression times, but if it
was anything like what I had remembered..........he is not far off.
HZ
--
Howard Zane
5236 Thunderhill Road
Columbia, MD 21045
410-730-1036
"Achmed Ptooey" <pto...@phlegm.net> wrote in message
news:3F1837DB...@phlegm.net...
Ken Spranza
about the Franklin & South Manchester and its creator....
and George is just playing with his Model Railroad ignoring all of this....
Ever wonder why he's not online? ;-)
--
Ken Spranza
k...@horailroad.com
"Digital Railroader" <dr-new...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Se_Qa.2375$6a3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Roger T.
"Ken Spranza" <kensk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7j0Sa.10412$Mc.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Funny thing....Here we all are on the internet p***ing all over each other
> about the Franklin & South Manchester and its creator....
> and George is just playing with his Model Railroad ignoring all of
this....
Who's p*ssing on who(m)?
So far, I think we've all agreed that he's a fantastic modeller, does
excellent work. Nobody is p*issing on him. Some of us, myself included,
may not like his style of modelling, but that doesn't detract from it.
Jack
rec.models.railroad, marcu...@kp.org says...
> You tell him, Howard. Geez, what is the point to that! The FSM is
> a fantastic layout. I could spend weeks admiring the modeling, the
> details, and the awesome weathering and scenery. The fact that a few
> old brass steamers are not smooth is not something to slam anyone for.
True, true. But, it still detracts from the overall experience. When I
check out a layout, I also like to see things running as good as they
look. I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but you want a layout
that gets trumpeted in the model railroad press for great scenery and
prototype fidelity as to setting, but runs like shit? Try the RPI club
layout. Check out Keller's tape on that one - beautiful layout and
rolling stock, but the running qualities give a whole new meaning to the
word spastic.
Want a layout that looked good and also ran well (with HO steam)? Try
Tony Koester's old AM layout.
--
de Jack N2MPU FN20
Modelling the NYC and NYNH&H in HO and CP Rail and D&H in N
Proud NRA member
Mark Mathu
> Like John Allan and Malcolm Furlow, the modelling is too much of a
> caricature for my liking.
I'm looking at the F&SM photo in the latest Model Railroader magazine,
(August 2003, p. 71), and I don't get that feeling at all.
Roger T.
> Roger T. wrote...
Not seen that yet, though it was mentioned as being featured in the July
issue.
I gather from another poster in this thread that he has toned down the
detail and litter and debris that, to my eye, was a bit over the top.
I do look forward to seeing the article as he does do an excellent job with
his style of modelling.
Achmed Ptooey
I have a railroad real estate book from 1940 that contains many
aerial photos from several large cities and smaller cities. I am
struck by (1) how modern many of the buildings look (2) how most
of the buildings are not tall, and nearly all of them use materials
other than brick (3) how clean the streets and roofs and walls of
the buildings are.
During the 1920's there was a major building boom. In the 1930's
a LOT of buildings and streets and industrial facilities were
brand spanking new.
George has caricatured reality; I agree the F&SM looks more like
something out of a cartoon than from a photograph. George is a
brilliant artist, absolutely. But a model railroader? No way.
Check out the latest issue of Mainline Modeler, and the pictures
from the RPI club in Troy NY. Troy was a run-down eastern industrial
town in the 1950's and no one has captured it better than Mr. Nehrich
and his crew. The model work on the NEB&W is actually better than
anything on the F&SM, because it is both beautifully crafted AND
it is realistic. (John uses historical photos and other sources
and nearly every model building is a replica of a real building.)
LarEyman
Larry at papastrains.com
Wolf Kirchmeir
=>But a model railroader? No way.
By whose definition?
--
Wolf Kirchmeir
Blind River, Ontario, Canada
Never try to teach a pig to dance.
It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Ditch
>
Yeah he is.
-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
Mark Mathu
> But a model railroader? No way.
He certainly is a model railroader.
MrRathburne
your layout to share and show what real model railroading is?
Achmed Ptooey <pto...@phlegm.net> wrote in message news:<3F1AA51E...@phlegm.net>...
Froggy
>Achmed Ptooey <pto...@phlegm.net> wrote in message news:<3F1AA51E...@phlegm.net>...
>>>
>> George has caricatured reality; I agree the F&SM looks more like
>> something out of a cartoon than from a photograph. George is a
>> brilliant artist, absolutely. But a model railroader? No way.
>>
>>
>Are you a model railroader? What makes you/one that? Got pictures of
>your layout to share and show what real model railroading is?
>
Sellios has a train that runs through his diorama. It is a bit of a stretch to think
of him as a model railroader in the same sense that we usually mean here.
He is Waaaaay out of the mainstream in the model railroading part of the hobby.
..............F>
David J. Starr
George's structures and scenery are far better than I can do. It's a
many faceted hobby. All of us have things we groove on and do well and
other things we aren't so good at. George is a whole bunch better at
structures and scenery that I will ever be. That makes him one hell of
a model railroader.
David J. Starr
LarEyman
am not sure if the 1st amendment to the Constitution intended for us to go this
far. I hope George is not reading any of this stuff.
Larry at papastrains.com
Froggy Wrote
Achmed Ptooey
Anyone who seeks the public attention that George Sellios has, can
expect some differing opinions on his efforts. That is the nature of
show business, and that is the business George has chosen for himself.
Most of us slog out our models, good or bad, in quiet solitude. There
are thousands of wonderful modelers out here in the world, and many of
them are more than a match for George... but perhaps it's not in their
nature to "show off". Never forget that the F&SM is basically a proving
ground for Fine Scale Miniatures kits -- and the layout plays a big role
in promoting those kits and that style of modeling. It is George's
livelihood, frankly. We're not sharks. But this all started (at least
for me) when Howard compared G.S. to Michelangelo. I mean, talk about
an excess of the First Amendment!
Ptooey
E Litella
> *You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
> American*
Sikorsky begs to differ.
Ditch
>
good for him. When I fly a Sikorsky *airplane*, I'll add it to the list. :)
-John
Froggy
An outstanding model builder? No question of that. The man is a virtuoso. But the
trains are not the focus of his work, they are an adjunct. So, for the same reason
that you are not a cityscape modeler or a dioramist, I cannot consider Sellios as a
model railroader in the commonly accepted sense. Every piece of model work that has
tracks running through it is not necessarily a model railroad. A model railroad has
to do something. it has to have a reason for being and it has to focus on the trains
and the railroad aspect of the thing. If it doesn't do this, then it is merely a
diorama. It may be a breathtakingly beautiful diorama, but it is a diorama all the
same, not a model railroad in the true sense. Any of you who are old enough and
fortunate enough to have seen the O scale "Dells Minirama" at Wisconsin Dells will
recall the exquisite beauty of the thing. Every bit as good as the Franklin & South
Manchester. Never the less it was not a model railroad. all you could do was watch
the trains run through it. It is the same with the F&SM. (Fine & Scale Miniatures)
No one is impugning the man for anything, but he is even on record as saying that the
trains were of minimal interest to him. His main focus is the cityscape. What more do
you want?
.........F>
Mike Tennent
>
>
>I wrote something to this effect at the beginning of the thread.
>
>I said something about not ever seeing photos of the depression where cities
>looked as run down as they do in George's cities.
Then you haven't looked enough. Yes, there were areas that were clean
and well maintained. But there were areas as Selios depicts. Ever
wonder why they called it "Hell's Kitchen?" It wasn't because it was
a preferred location...
> As you mention above,
>these were well maintained, or at least maintained buildings up to the
>depression, they weren't run down like George depicts them.
>
Sorry, but that contention - that everything in a city was well
maintained and clean, is as flawed as saying everything was as Selios
depicts it.
Both ends of the spectrum, and everything in between, existed. Selios
depicts one aspect.
>However, it's not just George that does this, look at most narrow gaugers,
>they usually model run down and decrepit railways, even thought they may be
>modelling it at its busiest times.
>
>As you say A+ for artistic ability, F for chronology.
And a C- for you in history. Inadequate research on your paper. <g>
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
Achmed Ptooey
> Then you haven't looked enough. Yes, there were areas that were clean
> and well maintained. But there were areas as Selios depicts. Ever
> wonder why they called it "Hell's Kitchen?" It wasn't because it was
> a preferred location...
Speaking of grades for history, I'd have to give you a D. The area of
New York you mention was a major slum -- in the 19th century. By the
1930's and later (George's time period, according to him) huge parts
of the city had been rebuilt including many slums. They looked a lot
better in the 1930's than they looked 30 years before, or 30 years
later. Now, if George had done a shanty town down by the tracks,
that would be a realistic item for the 1930's...
Ptooey
JJRNJ
mediating it. Because George Sellios doesn't run his trains a certain way, he
is not a Model Railroader?!?!?!... who the hell was elected or even appointed
themselves the Model Railroad Dictator to decide that??? So, because all of my
trains are packed in boxes, in my attic, and in my storage center, until I have
a place with sufficient space to setup the size and type of layout that I want
to, and because, I haven't worked on a model railroad since I quit the club I
belonged to 5 years ago, and I never renewed my membership in the National
Socialist Model Railroaders for a Common Goal, then I'm not considered a model
railroader either, huh??? Some of the attitudes and opinions expressed on this
Newsgroup are ridiculous. If George Sellios wants to run his trains round and
round in a circle, and create scale miles of scenery, to display his scenic and
detailing abilities, guess what... he's still a model railroader.... here in
the Unitied States, where we stil have some freedoms. And, if Andy Harman sets
up a 4x8 piece of plywood, and a circle of track with some green sawdust on it
as the only scenery, and runs his absolutely exquisite models around in
circles, to display those beautiful "MODELS" that he builds, guess what, he is
also still a model railroader, even tho he may be running 15 different custom
detailied N&W SD45s together, with nothing behind them, no way bill system, and
no industries to pick up and drop to. And guess what... even me, with my 300 +
locomotives and 1600 + freight cars, all packed up in boxes, waiting to be set
free to roam rails which don't exist yet, I am also a model railroader. No self
appointed Fuhrer of the Newsgroup Nazis (and there are many of them on each and
every Newsgroup) has the right to decide what is or isn't right for someone
else's model railroad, or how they should run it... or if they even run it at
all.
Jeff
Achmed Ptooey
Hmmmmm. Pot... Kettle... Black...
Ptooey
JJRNJ
them. Try again.
Jeff
Froggy
>......... No self
>appointed Fuhrer of the Newsgroup Nazis (and there are many of them on each and
>every Newsgroup) has the right to decide what is or isn't right for someone
>else's model railroad, or how they should run it... or if they even run it at
>all.
Are you upset about something?
It is no big deal to be a model railroader. There is no social status connected to
that state of being. Neither is there any social stigma connected to not being a
model railroader. Why do you have a burr under your saddle about this?
If you knew better you would know that the individual whose work is being discussed
here has been lauded by everyone who has commented on his work. To a man, they have
said that he is a superb modeler.
He himself has stated that trains are of minimal interest to him and are merely a
small part of the overall scheme of things. I have some model trucks, a truck
terminal and model airplanes on my model railroad. Does this make me a truck
modeler? Does it make me an aircraft modeler?
Certainly not. The trucks and planes are of minimal interest to me. They are merely a
small part in the overall scheme of things. Neither am I an electronics hobbyist,
but I have radio-controlled trains. I have no interest whatever in electronics. It is
merely there because it is a small part of the overall scheme of things, which, by
the way, is a model railroad with the focus on the railroad. Everything exists as an
adjunct to the railroad.
It is this that defines a model railroad. The focus is on the railroad.
Any other primary focus and you have something that is not primarily a model
railroad, thus you are not model railroading. You are modeling something else that
happens to have trains in it. Much the same as my model railway happens to have
trucks, cars and busses on it. They are only there to support the railroad and the
scenery.
The Franklin & South Manchester is not a model railroad. It is a showcase for Fine
Scale Miniatures' products. It is, at best, a diorama. An almost ineffably beautiful
one, but a diorama all the same.
Go back and read the original posting that started this thread and read the
follow-ups before you start screaming Nazi
.........................F>
Mike Tennent
>IronPenguin wrote
>
>> Then you haven't looked enough. Yes, there were areas that were clean
>> and well maintained. But there were areas as Selios depicts. Ever
>> wonder why they called it "Hell's Kitchen?" It wasn't because it was
>> a preferred location...
>
>Speaking of grades for history, I'd have to give you a D. The area of
>New York you mention was a major slum -- in the 19th century.
<chuckle>.
You aren't seriously contending that there were no slums as Selios
depicts in the 20th century? May I borrow your rose colored glasses?
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
cros...@charter.net
>because I never renewed my membership in the National
>Socialist Model Railroaders for a Common Goal, then I'm not considered a model
>railroader either, huh???
>Some of the attitudes and opinions expressed on this
>Newsgroup are ridiculous.
You got that right, buddy roe...
cros...@charter.net
wrote:
>IronPenguin wrote
>
>> Then you haven't looked enough. Yes, there were areas that were clean
>> and well maintained. But there were areas as Selios depicts. Ever
>> wonder why they called it "Hell's Kitchen?" It wasn't because it was
>> a preferred location...
>
>Speaking of grades for history, I'd have to give you a D.
Something tells me Mike's day job gives him an edge when it comes to
grading History exams...
Jeff Sc.
Holding Down The Ford, Ga.
Eric
kits.
I think this is a great discussion on what people see being a model
railroader does and does not encompass.
Eric
Eric
1930s---maybe, but I doubt it. But there were slums in NYC in the
1930s. The lower east side was one.
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/A/abbott/abbott_tenements.html
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/L/levitt/levitt_4boys.html
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/L/levitt/levitt_hydrant.html
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/L/levitt/levitt_new_york.html
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/W/weegee/weegee_summer.html
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/W/weegee/weegee_hells_kitchen.html
http://www.rebeccalepkoff.com/1940.html
Eric
Dennis E. Golden
nothing but a troll.) , let me second Mike's views. I teach History. (2nd
career by the way. I'm and olde phart -- and you know you're old when you're
teaching as history what you learned as current events.
Anyway, I can show you many pictures of scenes just like George's layout,
both in textbooks and out. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't
consider any of it unrealistic. It's just not an era I care to model. I
should also point out that localized slums exist even in good times.
One other comment while I'm boring everyone to tears. IMHO, we would all do
well to expand our individual definitions of model railroading. If George
Selios is more concerned with the structures and scenery than the railroad
end, that's fine. I hate dispatching. My own RR is designed to operate
almost without one. Instead it's aimed almost entirely at the engineer.
There are even people, I hear tell, who model SD60s and such -- why is
utterly beyond me :>)) -- but they are model railroaders too. One of the
strengths of the hobby to my mind is its diversity.
Well, that's enough hot air from me for one day.
Den
"Mike Tennent" <iron...@darientel.net> wrote in message
news:0naohv423dmq9p2i0...@4ax.com...
Froggy
>I doubt he'd care as long as people keep buying Fine Scale Minatures
>kits.
>
>I think this is a great discussion on what people see being a model
>railroader does and does not encompass.
>
>Eric
Why don't you join in and give us your thoughts on the subject? Although a few are
getting their feathers ruffled there are ALWAYS a few that get ruffled feathers in
any discussion. It just goes with the territory.
So, what do you think?
Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
OR
Is the Fine & Scale Miniatures a showcase diorama for FSM Inc.?
What do YOU think Eric?
.................F>
Roger T.
<Froggy>
> So, what do you think?
> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
> OR
> Is the Fine & Scale Miniatures a showcase diorama for FSM Inc.?
>
> What do YOU think Eric?
Yes.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
Ditch
Yup..lessee...it has some track, some trains running thru it. It is a scale
model of tracks and scale model of a train...Correct me if I am wrong, but I
think that defines model railroad.
>OR
>Is the Fine & Scale Miniatures a showcase diorama for FSM Inc.?
What a great way to advertise.
E Litella
> good for him. When I fly a Sikorsky *airplane*, I'll add it to the list. :)
Fixed wing bigot. Hover on this!
Roger T.
> > good for him. When I fly a Sikorsky *airplane*, I'll add it to the list.
:)
>
> Fixed wing bigot. Hover on this!
LOL.
Frank A. Rosenbaum
--
From the computer of
Frank A. Rosenbaum
"E Litella" <steve...@ateeteedaht.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1985b1abd...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Hey!!! Turn off that fan!! ;-}
Brian Paul Ehni
c%9Ta.16295$Mc.12...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net, "Frank A.
Rosenbaum" <faros...@earthlink.net> wrote:
(Ahem) Sikorsky got his start building fixed wing aircraft; that provided
the money to dabble in helicopters. See:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/from_pdf/sikorsky/css/sikorsky_1.htm
Here are some pictures of my Uncle Buzz during the restoration of an S-38:
http://www.scjcarnauba.com/plane.htm
Brian
Froggy
>>Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
>
>Yup..lessee...it has some track, some trains running thru it. It is a scale
>model of tracks and scale model of a train...Correct me if I am wrong, but I
>think that defines model railroad.
I think not.
Perhaps that defines a model of a railroad, but not a model railroad. The two are
not necessarily the same thing.
However, this has turned into a discussion about opinions and it is interesting to
see what people's opinions are. I've stated mine twice and supplied reasons that
direct my thinking. What makes anything with tracks and trains a model railroad?
What IS a model railroad.
Is there any difference between a model of a railroad ( or a railroad model ) and a
model railroad?
I think so.
...................F>
Corelane
Charles Seyferlich
I think there is no difference between model of a railroad and
railroad model. Just different way of saying same thing.
Deciding if one layout or model is better than another is pretty much
up to each person to decide for themselves.
I have seen large layouts that didn't impress me and I have seen
simple 4X8 foot plywood pacifics where the builder really caught the
feel of a real railroad, even when using snap track and basic models &
materials.
Larry Blanchard
> On 22 Jul 2003 05:43:49 GMT, gove...@aol.compost (Ditch) wrote:
>
> >>Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
> >
> >Yup..lessee...it has some track, some trains running thru it. It is a scale
> >model of tracks and scale model of a train...Correct me if I am wrong, but I
> >think that defines model railroad.
>
> I think not.
> Perhaps that defines a model of a railroad, but not a model railroad. The two are
> not necessarily the same thing.
Someone, I don't know who, once said the difference was between a model
railroader and a railroad modeller :-).
The first emphasizes operation and the second emphasizes (surprise!)
modelling.
Most of us are a combination of the two in varying ratios over time.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
E Litella
> Here are some pictures of my Uncle Buzz during the restoration of an S-38:
>
> http://www.scjcarnauba.com/plane.htm
Neat project. I'm still grateful for the ability of Mr Sikorsky's
helicopters to absorb a great deal of punishment and still fly, after a
fashion, as far as the water, at least.
E Litella
> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
Is a basement full of O27 stuff on high tubular 3 rail track, with
formalized dispatch and operating procedures, a "model" railroad, or just a
big toy train layout?
How many model railroaders can dance on the head of a pin? How many should
just sit on the other end?
MrRathburne
Froggy wrote in message news:<3f1d3707...@news.mindspring.com>...
Ernie Fisch
> What IS a model railroad.
> Is there any difference between a model of a railroad ( or a railroad model ) and a
> model railroad?
> I think so.
First, I enjoy George's modelling; however, it is a foreign land to
me. I spent my formative years in Los Angeles and San Francisco in
the last years of the depression. I have impressions (if not actual
memories) of the time. Things in the west were far more open and
spread out. In Los Angeles even the industrial areas were brighter
looking. I do remember downtown LA, the old, real downtown as being
grubby enough to not want to touch anything. San Francisco was worse.
The two things that bother me about the F&SM are the height of the
buildings and the apparent gloom. Western industrial buildings were
not nearly as tall and of course it was much brighter looking. My
seven years in the east introduced me to the gloom (which is why
staying was never an option) but even in the northeast there was a lot
of sunshine.
Defining the line between a model railroad and a railroad model is not
easy. I run on a railroad that features operation but it is far short
of modelling a prototype. I have also run on what I call Christmas
tree layouts, i.e. round and round. I call them model railroads but
not operating layouts.
My two kopecks.
--
ernie fisch
Achmed Ptooey
Wow, talk about bigotry. You equate laundry lines with slums????
I don't see any graffiti, worn out advertising signs, or crumbling
brick. In case you so called historians are not familiar with laundry
lines, that is how most laundry was dried before indoor dryers became
so popular. I was raised in a middle class suburb, and I remember my
mom hanging out the laundry in the 1960's...
Achmed Ptooey
> You aren't seriously contending that there were no slums as Selios
> depicts in the 20th century? May I borrow your rose colored glasses?
Actually, there are no buildings on the planet that resemble the tall,
towering brick buildings that George cobbled from Magnuson kits... but
that's a whole other can of worms.
Ptooey
Froggy
>Froggy wrote:
>> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
>
>Is a basement full of O27 stuff on high tubular 3 rail track, with
>formalized dispatch and operating procedures, a "model" railroad, or just a
>big toy train layout?
Depends on how it is operated. It is the philosophy of the thing that makes the
difference, not what the trains look like. I have always thought it would be fun to
operate a big "toy train" model railroad in a prototypical manner. I've never done
it, but I'd like to. I think you'd soon forget that the third rail was there and
that there was a scale relationship problem.
OTOH, if you just ran trains around helter skelter, Gomez Addams style, then it would
most certainly be just toy trains; whether or not they had three rails or were all
Overland Brass.
Lunchtime, gotta go.........................F>
Erik Olsen
> I don't see any graffiti, worn out advertising signs, or crumbling
> brick. In case you so called historians are not familiar with laundry
> lines, that is how most laundry was dried before indoor dryers became
> so popular. I was raised in a middle class suburb, and I remember my
> mom hanging out the laundry in the 1960's...
In this end of the world we still hang out our laundry for drying.
Faithfully
Erik Olsen
(Denmark)
Achmed Ptooey
Dig out an old Model Railroader and look for articles on Frank Ellison's
Delta Lines. Frank was serious about operations and inspired a generation
of modelers. His trains were 3rd-rail O scale, and scenery etc were plain
and simple -- the stage on which the trains performed.
Ptooey
Froggy
>What is the difference between a Model Railroad and a Model of a Railroad?
>
>
Well, I have my ideas, and have already stated them here. I will wait a while before
I put them up again to see if others can be pursuaded to post their own ideas.
Someone else said that if it has tracks and trains that run on them, then it's a
model rairoad.
I disagree.
What is your idea, Rath. of what constitutes a model railroad and what constitutes
something else that has trains on it, but isn't a model railroad?
Where do YOU make the distinction?
Is Brio a model railroad?
What about Thomas the Tank Engine?
What about the huge Santa Fe display at the Museum of Science and Industry?
Northlandz
The San Diego club at Balboa Park?
What is- and what is not- a model railroad?
I want to know what you think.
You tell me.
..................F>
Paul Newhouse
rat...@aol.com (MrRathburne) writes:
> What is the difference between a Model Railroad and a Model of a Railroad?
which though.
--
Working the Rockie Road of the G&PX
Pac Man
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3f1d723a...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:10:34 GMT, E Litella <steve...@ateeteedaht.net>
wrote:
>
> >Froggy wrote:
> >> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
> >
> >Is a basement full of O27 stuff on high tubular 3 rail track, with
> >formalized dispatch and operating procedures, a "model" railroad, or just
a
> >big toy train layout?
>
> Depends on how it is operated. It is the philosophy of the thing that
makes the
> difference, not what the trains look like. I have always thought it would
be fun to
> operate a big "toy train" model railroad in a prototypical manner. I've
never done
> it, but I'd like to. I think you'd soon forget that the third rail was
there and
> that there was a scale relationship problem.
Hey Froggy, next time you're in New England, you should see my
neighbor's American Flyer layout. No scenery at all, and it's all loose
track on chipboard. However, he operates it a prototypically as possible,
with actual New Haven timetables and documents. It makes for an interesting
night, let me tell ya'... ;-)
Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Eric
What does the url and the caption say?
http://www.masters-of-photography.com/A/abbott/abbott_tenements.html
==========
"Berenice Abbott
Court of the First Model Tenements in New York City,
=========
361-365 East 71st Street c. 1935-39"
Tenement
Which dictionary.com defines as:
A rundown, low-rental apartment building whose facilities and
maintenance barely meet minimum standards.
Obviously you have a problem reading for comprehension.
Eric
Rick Jones
> Why don't you join in and give us your thoughts on the subject? Although a few are
> getting their feathers ruffled there are ALWAYS a few that get ruffled feathers in
> any discussion. It just goes with the territory.
> So, what do you think?
> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
> OR
> Is the Fine & Scale Miniatures a showcase diorama for FSM Inc.?
I'd say both. George is a model railroader who happens to run a
business in the model railroad industry. I believe that he takes what he
has done on the layout and turns it into a product, rather than
populating the layout with the products of his business.
IMO, the F&SM is the sort of gorgeous layout that I aspire to create
myself. I find the work and detail put into it to be much more
fascinating and beautiful than, say, Dave Frary's or Rand Hood's layouts.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
Pet Peeve - Women who don't raise the toilet seat.
Eric
think is a caricature but rather a pastiche of real scenes selectively
compressed. Like the movie 'Saving Private Ryan' the events portrayed
did actually happen just not in a compressed timeline as it was shown.
RPI's NE,B & W was mentioned as a well running well detailed layout.
I've seen it several times. The last was april of 2002 and they were
having a problem with the DDC system and the trains ran rather poorly.
Also someone was running an ABBA of Milwaukee Road F units which don't
really fit in in a rural New England/upstate New York layout. In
addition, some of the scenery is around twenty years old and could
benefit from an upgrade with modern techniques and materials.
Selios obviously has a sense of humor; it's something many people on
R.M.R ought to consider cultivating. :-)
I think you can show humorous scenes and still have realistic
modeling.
Eric
Froggy
> Hey Froggy, next time you're in New England, you should see my
>neighbor's American Flyer layout. No scenery at all, and it's all loose
>track on chipboard. However, he operates it a prototypically as possible,
>with actual New Haven timetables and documents. It makes for an interesting
>night, let me tell ya'... ;-)
>
>Paul A. Cutler III
>*************
>Weather Or No Go New Haven
I have a weak spot for American Flyer. It was American Flyer that initiated me into
the model railroading hobby over 50 years ago. A new Haven Pacific with four green,
Hew Haven Osgood-Bradley cars behind, plus another Pacific with five freight cars and
a caboose My Pop had a big 8' X 16' train table built, all the track laid ( there was
a lot of track and turnouts ), and accessories installed; all ready to go Christmas
morning.
If I live to be a thousand years-old I will never forget that first tinplate "train
set".
.....................F>
Achmed Ptooey
eyes tell them. The photos clearly show buildings that are not
"run down" at all.
One thing the photos do prove however -- George doesn't know
how to model tenements.
Ptooey
P.S. You used the wrong definition. Choose the first one --
A building for human habitation, especially one that is rented to tenants.
The buildings were called "tenements" the day they were first built --
it was only MUCH LATER that people like yourself equated them with slums.
Mark Mathu
> Is the Franklin & South Manchester a bona - fide model railway?
Yes, one with a lot of great scenery.
Judge for yourself:
http://www.trevinocircle.com/fsm.asp
--
Mark