Muay Thai: Islam vs. Wai Kru
storys
"Khun Kao" <khu...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8eap4k$c2n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> I have a student who is Muslim and has politely declined to perform the
> Wai Kru, as he feels that he can only pay that kind of homage to
> Allah. I have no problem with that. He does, however, bow three times
> when entering onto the mats or leaving them. He bows as the Jui Jitsu
> students though, standing.
This is a toughie.
1) It's religious based
2) It's a personal viewpoint based on #1 above
I'm going to make a couple of assumptions. They are as follows; this person
is really sincere in his beliefs and his conviction is the result of a
reasonable thought process. Given this I think that you'd better either
leave it alone for a bit or have another Muslim whom he can respect talk to
him and explain how it ( the triple bow ) is NOT religious based. Even with
all this you may not get anywhere. there are those Christians who think the
whole of Martial arts is nothing more than Satan worship & nothing you can
do or say will change their minds.
.......Tom........
storys
"Muay Thai boxer" <muayth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000427223848...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> What's with the Christian bashing? No better than Hitler persecuting Jews
> because they are Jewish.
>
> -Nak Muay
Please quote so we know what you are talking about. I've seen no Christian
bashing here. I stated a fact about some Christians. I've been on the wrong
end of that particular one personally. Which bash are you talking about?
......Tom.........
Khun Kao
The head of my school, Lloyd Irvin, has asked that all martial arts
classes become a little more formal, i.e.- "bow in" when stepping on or
off the mats.
I've decided to take advantage of that to have my students bow in with
a traditional Wai Kru from Thailand. This is where the students get on
their knees and bow three times to the floor. In Thailand, the Wai Kru
is literally translated as "bowing to your instructor". This is custom
for all Thai's, whether Thai boxers or not. It is a sign of respect.
It is also the very first part of the Ram Muay, or pre-fight ceremony.
I have a student who is Muslim and has politely declined to perform the
Wai Kru, as he feels that he can only pay that kind of homage to
Allah. I have no problem with that. He does, however, bow three times
when entering onto the mats or leaving them. He bows as the Jui Jitsu
students though, standing.
I know from my years of study that the Wai Kru and Ram Muay Ceremonys
have no religious context and should not be viewed as a slight to
anyone's religious beliefs, but I am curious as to the best way to
approach my student in regards to this.
Has anyone had any similar experience? What would be the best approach
to alleviate any concerns of my student?
As an aside, Master K is of a Muslim background also. Thailand has a
sizable Muslim population. Islam is the #2 religion in Thailand,
behind Buddhism. I plan on meeting with him on this over the weekend,
when we perform our Muay Thai demonstration at the local Songkran
Festival at Wat Thai in Maryland. (Sorry for the plug, anyone local to
the DC Metro area should come check it out!)
I'll keep posting what develops...
--
Khun Kao Charuad
SuriyaSak Muay Thai at USDC
http://www.elbowko.com
http://www.lloydirvin.com
to contact: Khu...@mindspring.com
archived tutorials: http://go.to/stickgrappler
(go to Muay Thai section)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Muay Thai boxer
Daniel Sullivan
> The head of my school, Lloyd Irvin, has asked that all martial arts
> classes become a little more formal, i.e.- "bow in" when stepping on or
> off the mats.
Keyword here is "asked" not "required" as far as I'm concerned.
> I've decided to take advantage of that to have my students bow in with
> a traditional Wai Kru from Thailand. This is where the students get on
> their knees and bow three times to the floor. In Thailand, the Wai Kru
> is literally translated as "bowing to your instructor". This is custom
> for all Thai's, whether Thai boxers or not. It is a sign of respect.
> It is also the very first part of the Ram Muay, or pre-fight ceremony.
>
> I have a student who is Muslim and has politely declined to perform the
> Wai Kru, as he feels that he can only pay that kind of homage to
> Allah. I have no problem with that. He does, however, bow three times
> when entering onto the mats or leaving them. He bows as the Jui Jitsu
> students though, standing.
(snip) some important stuff
Hmm...this IS a toughie. I don't know about other martial artists around,
but for me the motion IS the meaning. Including bows. If the
aforementioned bow is the same motion as the Islam bow, I would *NOT*
require that the student bow. Period. Bowing for me is an act of physical
and emotional vulnerability (and yes, respect), and while I may feel
comfortable bowing to my instructor, I would not suggest that anyone who
does not feel the same way be forced to do so. I am not sure about all the
*God* stuff, but imagine if you were quite sure of that, and quite
comfortable sharing your emotions and inner self with the aforementioned God
and therefore felt that not only you owed him respect but owed him the
gesture that (to me) indicates vulnerability and letting something (or
someone) in. Well, hell, you get the point, if it's the exact same
movemoent in Thai as it is in Islam, you must understand that there is a
reservation of that movement for God, and not expect that the same movement
will be made to anyone else.
My two cents. Not that they are worth much, but man, imagine you *were* a
die-hard born-again and someone asked you to praise the earth spirits....
--
"If you and I were squirrels, could I bust a nut in your hole?"
- Chain
"Is that a keg in your pants? 'Cause I'd love to tap that ass."
-Chain
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to
prayer."
-Mark Twain
Muay Thai boxer
Christians think martial arts come from the devil. I am a Christian and I don't
believe that, as well as many others I know.
-Nak Muay
storys
This is NOT what I said. I have said that some Christians do believe just
that. I know I've been accused of being a Satanist high priest because of
the fact that I bow into the dojo and out of it etc. Thus my comment re
personal experience. I am myself Christian & obviously after many years of
kata don't feel that M.A. are from the devil but the simple fact is that
some misguided souls do.
.....tom.......
Russ Poncher
Muay Thai boxer wrote:
>
> I was talking about that you said or who ever i was responding to said that ALL
> Christians think martial arts come from the devil. I am a Christian and I don't
> believe that, as well as many others I know.
>
> -Nak Muay
Storys wrote "...there are those Christians who think the whole of
Martial arts is nothing more than Satan worship...". Nobody (on this
thread at least) ever said anything about applying this to all
Christians. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully before
responding.
storys
"Russ Poncher" <xpon...@eaxthlink.net> wrote in message
news:390AF361...@eaxthlink.net...
>
> Storys wrote "...there are those Christians who think the whole of
> Martial arts is nothing more than Satan worship...". Nobody (on this
> thread at least) ever said anything about applying this to all
> Christians. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully before
> responding.
Your quote of what I said is quite accurate. I write this just to confirm
that.
.......Tom..........
tim
: I have a student who is Muslim and has politely declined to perform the
: Wai Kru, as he feels that he can only pay that kind of homage to
: Allah. I have no problem with that. He does, however, bow three times
: when entering onto the mats or leaving them. He bows as the Jui Jitsu
: students though, standing.
: have no religious context and should not be viewed as a slight to
: anyone's religious beliefs, but I am curious as to the best way to
: approach my student in regards to this.
: Has anyone had any similar experience? What would be the best approach
: to alleviate any concerns of my student?
i had a similar experience at our aikido club. at the beginning of
class, everyone bows (on your knees, palms on the floor, forehead to the
back of the hands) to the shomen, then bows to the instructor (and the
instructor to us, as well).
one of the guys was a muslim from malaysia, and he would only partially
bow (knuckles of one hand to the floor, slight bend and nod of the
head). the way he explained it, he only bows in that manner (fully, like
we were supposed to) to allah. it doesn't matter that the wai kru isn't
religious - he will bow to no man like he bows to allah. if you try to
explain that it's the intent that makes teh significance of the bow,
he'll probably respond that the bow is a manifestation of the intent - if
the bow is independent of the intent, why bow at all?
i'm a bit confused at the problem - will he not pay respects to the
teacher at all, or is it that it's not done in the traditional manner?
tim
tim
: My only concern is that I know that there is a sizable Muslim
: population in Thailand. Hell, my TEACHER, Master K is from a Muslim
: family (though he's not a practicing Muslim), and my understanding is
: that there is not any real conflict. I am just trying to see if anyone
: has any thoughts on the matter.
: I was watching some Thai fights, and I saw some Thai's would only do a
: partial bow while performing the Wai Kru, I will discuss this with
: him.
i think it may be a personal thing, or something only devout muslims do.
maybe because your teacher is not a practicing muslim is why it's not an
issue.
: I only wish to teach the Wai Kru b/c it is part of the culture of Thai
: boxing, and if he were to ever fight, it is the first step of the Ram
: Muay. I will discuss this with Master K over tomorrow at the Songkran
: Festival and see what his feelings on it are before I discuss it with
: my student.
i agree. in the art i'm learning, there is quite a bit of push to learn
the culture (which i like) - although some teachers stress it more than
others. i had learned a bit of muay thai (master chai's) and never got
to learn the wai kru, which i wanted to. dunno if it's because he
doesn't teach it, or if his instructors don't. you're in d.c., right?
if my job searching takes me over there, i'll have to stop by and visit
your gym. do you (or someone else) teach krabi krabong there?
tim
Khun Kao
> i'm a bit confused at the problem - will he not pay respects to the
> teacher at all, or is it that it's not done in the traditional manner?
>
> tim
>
My only concern is that I know that there is a sizable Muslim
population in Thailand. Hell, my TEACHER, Master K is from a Muslim
family (though he's not a practicing Muslim), and my understanding is
that there is not any real conflict. I am just trying to see if anyone
has any thoughts on the matter.
I was watching some Thai fights, and I saw some Thai's would only do a
partial bow while performing the Wai Kru, I will discuss this with
him.
I only wish to teach the Wai Kru b/c it is part of the culture of Thai
boxing, and if he were to ever fight, it is the first step of the Ram
Muay. I will discuss this with Master K over tomorrow at the Songkran
Festival and see what his feelings on it are before I discuss it with
my student.
--
Muay Thai boxer
people do think of MAs as being evil,
mjm
tim
: The Wai Kru is simply 3 bows while kneeling. That is the first step of
: the Ram Muay, which is the pre-fight dance.
oops, sorry, i got my terms mixed up. i meant i wished i'd gotten a
chance to learn the ram muay.
tim
Khun Kao
the Ram Muay, which is the pre-fight dance.
We do not teach Krabi-Krabong, though we have had two boxers who had
studied it in Thailand at Buddisawan. One of the boxers still trains
with us.
At todays Songkran festival, he and I performed our pre-fight
ceremonies simultaneiously, it went off really well. I also got a
chance to hook up with Danny, who is another of my Thai instructors. I
don't know his real Thai name, but he is a former Lumpini Champ.
Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad
>Khun Kao <khu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>: My only concern is that I know that there is a sizable Muslim
>: population in Thailand. Hell, my TEACHER, Master K is from a Muslim
>: family (though he's not a practicing Muslim), and my understanding is
>: that there is not any real conflict. I am just trying to see if anyone
>: has any thoughts on the matter.
>: I was watching some Thai fights, and I saw some Thai's would only do a
>: partial bow while performing the Wai Kru, I will discuss this with
>: him.
>i think it may be a personal thing, or something only devout muslims do.
>maybe because your teacher is not a practicing muslim is why it's not an
>issue.
As someone raised in largely Muslim culture (Bangladesh), I'll have
to say that Tim is right. Muslims are basically forbidden by their faith
to bow to anyone other than God/Allah regardless of intent. It shouldn't
be interpreted as a lack of respect for the teacher or opponent, and unless
this is particularly disruptive for the class, I'd recommend not making a
fuss over it. If other students ask about it, then explain it to them.
Regards.
sh...@leland.stanford.edu - Shaad -
http://cmgm.stanford.edu/~ahmad/
the deviant biologist
"Seek simplicity but distrust it."
-- A. N. Whitehead
Chas
> As someone raised in largely Muslim culture (Bangladesh), I'll have
> to say that Tim is right. Muslims are basically forbidden by their faith
> to bow to anyone other than God/Allah regardless of intent.
It is a completely different thing. The Muslim religious 'bow' is
similar to a complete kowtow; down on the knees and prostrated, forehead
to the ground in complete Submission to the Will of God. The bow between
martial artists or the common greeting between Asians has no
resemblance- it's mostly a bad translation between languages. "bow" is
just too general a word for what is actually happening with the various
social body postures.
--
Chas
"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
http://members.xoom.com/kilap/cane.html
Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad
>Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad wrote:
>> As someone raised in largely Muslim culture (Bangladesh), I'll have
>> to say that Tim is right. Muslims are basically forbidden by their faith
>> to bow to anyone other than God/Allah regardless of intent.
>It is a completely different thing. The Muslim religious 'bow' is
>similar to a complete kowtow; down on the knees and prostrated, forehead
>to the ground in complete Submission to the Will of God. The bow between
>martial artists or the common greeting between Asians has no
>resemblance- it's mostly a bad translation between languages. "bow" is
>just too general a word for what is actually happening with the various
>social body postures.
I don't disagree. There is considerable difference between the
"sejdah" -- the act of prostration to Allah during "namaz" or "salat"
(prayers) -- and the forms of bowing present in most martial arts.
However, the proscription against "lowering your head to anyone but
Allah" is more generic, and is considered by most Muslims to prohibit
them from anything more extreme than a mere nod.
Chas
> However, the proscription against "lowering your head to anyone but
> Allah" is more generic, and is considered by most Muslims to prohibit
> them from anything more extreme than a mere nod.
Thank you for your instruction; I stand corrected.
Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad
>Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad wrote:
>> However, the proscription against "lowering your head to anyone but
>> Allah" is more generic, and is considered by most Muslims to prohibit
>> them from anything more extreme than a mere nod.
>Thank you for your instruction; I stand corrected.
Don't mention it, Chas. I am curious, though; given that silat appears
to have roots in both Islam and animism, how do you fellows handle the
respect/greeting issue?
Chas
> ...I am curious, though; given that silat appears
> to have roots in both Islam and animism, how do you fellows handle the
> respect/greeting issue?
Their are about five 'sembah' (greetings/bows) that I know of; all of
them are taught as fighting techniques of response to attack from
surprise. There are; informal, formal reserved, formal challenging,
formal style statement, deeply respectful to teacher/leader. The biggest
thing that differs is the timing and the lower platform. Respectful bows
are held longer; the style sembah is longer and more complicated.
None of them is vulnerable or abject, simply a waiting and greeting. The
eyes are not downcast, the head is not bowed or the neck presented; it
is a position of alertness rather than submission.
Our practice leaders aren't called 'teacher' or 'master'. One of the
first things you learn is; 'There is no Master but God; all others are
simply students'.
Some of the animist practices probably have a point of departure from
Muslim practices, but the heaviest magic is out of the Islamic tradition
in my opinion- not as 'spectacular' as the animal trances but very
powerful.
Dave Murray
Shaad Mohiuddin Ahmad <sh...@Stanford.EDU> wrote
have
> >> to say that Tim is right. Muslims are basically forbidden by their
faith
> >> to bow to anyone other than God/Allah regardless of intent.
>
> >It is a completely different thing. The Muslim religious 'bow' is
> >similar to a complete kowtow; down on the knees and prostrated, forehead
> >to the ground in complete Submission to the Will of God. The bow between
> >martial artists or the common greeting between Asians has no
> >resemblance- it's mostly a bad translation between languages. "bow" is
> >just too general a word for what is actually happening with the various
> >social body postures.
>
> I don't disagree. There is considerable difference between the
> "sejdah" -- the act of prostration to Allah during "namaz" or "salat"
> (prayers) -- and the forms of bowing present in most martial arts.
> Allah" is more generic, and is considered by most Muslims to prohibit
> them from anything more extreme than a mere nod.
For what it is worth, when I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia I was active
in TKD. I practiced with a number of Saudi nationals who were Muslims.
Their answer was to perform a 'salute' where they put their hands at their
sides and popped up onto their toes. It allowed them to acknowledge their
training partner, or tournament opponent, without 'lowering their head'.
There's always a way to show brotherhood.
Peace,
Dave
