Judo Promotion question
dumo...@juncol.juniata.edu
promotions. The one I have inside my senior record book is out of date. Could
someone pleas post the minimum time-in-grade and points for promotions?
-
Thanks
-Erik n
Jim Shupe
Promotion To Min. Time Norm. Time Ave Time in Grade
Req. Points Req. Points
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
6th Kyu 2mo-7pt 3mo-5pt 3-4mo
5th Kyu 3mo-11pt 4mo-7pt 4-5mo
4th Kyu 4mo-15pt 5mo-9pt 5-7mo
3th Kyu 5mo-20pt 6mo-12pt 6-9mo
2th Kyu 5mo-22pt 8mo-17pt 8-12mo
1th Kyu 5mo-24pt 10mo-22pt 10-16mo
1th Dan 6mo-33pt 1yr-28pt 1-2yr
2th Dan 1yr-70pt 2yr-60pt 2-4yr
3th Dan 2yr-156pt 3yr-96pt 3-6yr
4th Dan 3yr-252pt 5yr-170pt 5-9yr
5th Dan 4yr-360pt 7yr-252pt 7-12yr
6th Dan 5yr-480pt 9yr-342pt 9-15yr
7th Dan 6yr-612pt 12yr-480pt 12-19yr
8th Dan 7yr-756pt 15yr-630pt 15-23yr
9th Dan 8yr-912pt 18yr-792pt 18-27yr
10th Dan 9yr-1080pt 21yr-966pt 21-31yr
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above text contains my opinions, not IBM's. Unless otherwise stated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitakuye Oyasin, JT Waya Gola Shupe <*> Tele: 507/253-4318
AFS ID: shupe@rchland INTERNET: jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com
John F. Fogh
jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> The promotion schedule is as follows:
>
> Promotion To Min. Time Norm. Time Ave Time in Grade
> Req. Points Req. Points
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 6th Kyu 2mo-7pt 3mo-5pt 3-4mo
> 5th Kyu 3mo-11pt 4mo-7pt 4-5mo
> 4th Kyu 4mo-15pt 5mo-9pt 5-7mo
> 3th Kyu 5mo-20pt 6mo-12pt 6-9mo
> 2th Kyu 5mo-22pt 8mo-17pt 8-12mo
> 1th Kyu 5mo-24pt 10mo-22pt 10-16mo
> 1th Dan 6mo-33pt 1yr-28pt 1-2yr
> 2th Dan 1yr-70pt 2yr-60pt 2-4yr
> 3th Dan 2yr-156pt 3yr-96pt 3-6yr
> 4th Dan 3yr-252pt 5yr-170pt 5-9yr
> 5th Dan 4yr-360pt 7yr-252pt 7-12yr
> 6th Dan 5yr-480pt 9yr-342pt 9-15yr
> 7th Dan 6yr-612pt 12yr-480pt 12-19yr
> 8th Dan 7yr-756pt 15yr-630pt 15-23yr
> 9th Dan 8yr-912pt 18yr-792pt 18-27yr
> 10th Dan 9yr-1080pt 21yr-966pt 21-31yr
This is precisely why I left Judo. When I was still going tournements the
pools were based on weight, rank, and gender. If you went to a large
tournement I could expect to fight men my size, and within a rank or two
of my own. I went to a small tournement once where I fought a woman who
had 20lbs and two ranks on me. It would seem that by going to large
tournements you could progress quite quickly, by beating people with less
experience than yourself. If I can beat 7 6th Kyu I get promoted to 5th.
Umm 6th kyu is fresh off the turnip truck, beating 6th Kyu is not much of
criteria for getting ANY promotions.
There must be more to Judo promotions than this? I had a friend who was a
Jujitsu student (4th kyu), and as such did not have a rank in Judo. He had
to compete as a 6th Kyu. He won all of his pools and frequently got best
technique for his left handed Ogoshi (one of the 5 nage techniques he knew
at the time.) After three such Judo tournements he had attained 1st Kyu.
In the two years I trained with him we had never been promoted in Jujitsu,
because our Sensei didn't think we were ready.
Shodan in a year? I don't understand that at all. I must be pretty stupid
and clumsy, by the above table if I was not so inept I would be 6th Dan by
now. To think of the nine years I wasted learning new techniques, sweeping
mats, and trying to teach others in the course of getting my Shodan. Boy
was I stupid. Where can I get a correspondance course for my Nidan?
- John
PS:
Before you flame me, think back and see if you can remember anyone who got
their Shodan in six months, and didn't really know that much about Judo.
Then flame me.
Daniel R. Israel
says...
First of all, you only get a point if the person you beat is your rank or better.
Beating lower ranks gives no points. (Some instructors give 1/2 point for 1 rank
below). Second of all, Shodan in 6 months is MINIMUM time in grade a 1Kyu. If
you spend MINIMUM time in each rank, that's 30 months. That's still a little fast,
but remember this is MINIMUM time...
-Izz
JudoSensei
got
>their Shodan in six months, and didn't really know that much about Judo.
>Then flame me.
Maybe you didn't understand that the chart showed 6 months as the minimum
time requirement as 1st kyu. According to the chart the normal time in
grade from beginning to first dan was 5 to 6 and a half years. It took me
8 so I guess I am slow too. I was not sure of what your point was as to
why you quit judo. Did you quit because promotions are too easy? I have
never heard that before.
Neil Ohlenkamp
Jim Shupe
I thought about it and now I can flame you... you obviously got into a
bad Judo organization or you have no clue about what was being listed
in my previous post.
For some unknown reason you think you can make Shodan in USJA Judo in
a year, **WRONG**. It takes (average times) 3 months to go from
Schichikyu to Rokyu, 4 months from Rokyu to gokyu, 5 months from gokyu
to yonkyu, 6 months from yonkyu to sankyu, 8 months from sankyu to
nikyu, 10 months from nikyu to ikkyu and a year from ikkyu to shodan...
lets see, now if I remember my first grade math... thats an average of
four years to reach Shodan. The minimum time for great competitors who
also have the knowledge accumulated to pass all their tests would be
two and a half years. I've met not one Judoka who has reached shodan
in 2 1/2 years and I've been involved with and/or around judo since
I was 7 years old (over 21 years ago).
Tournament points are not easy to get... if you are at "big" tournaments
which usually means regional or national level tournaments then the
competitors are usually better. Sure you get a few points for entering
the tournament (I think it is 2 for a regional) and you get points for
beating people but... you get 0 pts for beating a player more than 2 ranks
below you, 1/2 point 2 ranks below, 1 pt for one ranks, 2 pts for even ranks
3 points for a rank above and 4 points for 2 or more ranks above. Let me
tell you, I've very rarely beaten someone 2 or more ranks above my level.
Beating a 6th kyu, as a seventh kyu means that you've the skills to progress,
proving that again and again over a period of time legitimizes it.
Of course your argument "against" judo begs the fact that you can not get
promoted (at lest in USJA) without testing and without the approval of
your Sensei.
If your friend's "story" about going from 7th to 1st kyu is true then I'd
like to know the association or federation he belongs to... I'd also like
to know his name, his club, his sensei's name, etc. so that such a travesty
could be corrected if at all possible. While I readily admit that exceptional
students deserve to be promoted quickly, your friend's organization sounds
like a joke and I believe it is hurting Judo instead of benefiting it.
Finally, in the future it would be nice if you asked for an explanation
of what you don't understand instead of immediately going of on your
assumptions (which were quite wrong) and trying to degrade what you do
not understand
Jim Shupe
|> Also, the chart didn't mention some of the other requirements for
|> promotion--it was just a minimum time in grade chart. In our area, you
|> must also pass a written test (on such things as terminology, rules, and
|> other basic principals), you need to be able to demonstrate certain
|> techniques for each rank (and teach them for the dan ranks), demonstrate
|> various kata, and as Iz said, obtain points toward promotion. For
|> promotion to Shodan in this area, you need 20 points--that's 20 contest
|> wins against equal or higher rank since becoming an ikkyu--not 20 in your
|> entire judo career. Even if you are good, it takes a while to rack up 20
|> wins against opponents of equal or greater rank.
Exactly. But, had everyone seen the original post, the individual was
asking for the new promotion points/time schedule not for everything
else. He had lost his and needed some information. This is the reason
no more specifics were posted.
Jennifer O'Brien
Yes it is possible to skip a rank or be promoted without testing (in
USJF--I don't know about USJA). But it is very rare, and usually involves
someone who has been going to practice regularly, competing regularly and
doing well, but who hasn't been able to make it to the semi-annual
promotional examinations for a long, long while.
Some examples:
Yesterday, a woman in my club was recently promoted from gokyu to sankyu
because a) she has been practicing judo for at least 2 years since her
last promotion b) when she started competing this year (work schedules
interfered previously), she cleaned up--and not just among white belts.
She beat a black belt (a throw for ippon!) at the Liberty Bell, and she
only lost one of her seven or eight matches at the promotional tournament,
including beating an ikkyu (twice--once by ippon) and a sankyu (who just
became a nikyu--by ippon). She has beaten brown belts on several other
occasions too. If she had followed the normal path, she'd certainly be
a sankyu by now anyway.
I was promoted from sankyu to to nikyu (and again, later from nikyu to
ikkyu) without testing. I went to the promotional competition to gain
points and experience (expecting to test the next time). Each time I had
1-1/2 - 2 years time in grade (way more than the 6 month minimum), had
been practicing regularly, and knew my techniques, etc. I just didn't
know my kata yet. And each time I did very well in competition-- when I
was promoted from sankyu to nikyu, I had eight or nine matches at the
promotional tournament and only lost one --all by ippon. And I beat two
women who were promoted to shodan that day. I didn't think I was ready,
but the promotions board felt differently. After being promoted to ikkyu,
I was told by a member of the promotions board that a) they almost didn't
promote me (and considered making it contingent upon demonstrating the
kata) and b)promotion to shodan was taken much more seriously, and that
next time, they WILL require me to demonstrate the kata(s), and take the
test.
In another case (also at my club at the time) a guy was promoted from
Shodan to Sandan. He had awsome, clean technique and knowlege, and about
15 years time in grade. He just never felt like testing and didn't place
a high priority on gaining a higher rank. His previous sensei had been
harassing him for years about it. So, when he finally showed up for the
test, they gave him the rank he deserved.
These are not normal cases, but it does happen--when time in grade is
more than adequate. People fail their exams much, much more often.
Several individuals (some of whom are excellent competitors) were denied
promotion yesterday (I'm told) because they didn't have the time in grade
or proof of the required points.
--
Jenny O'Brien
GORDON ALLEN R
>Yes it is possible to skip a rank or be promoted without testing (in
>USJF--I don't know about USJA). But it is very rare, and usually involves
>someone who has been going to practice regularly, competing regularly and
>doing well, but who hasn't been able to make it to the semi-annual
>promotional examinations for a long, long while.
Batsugun promotions are not all that uncommon. I know quite of few people who
have been awarded shodan in this way. However, in the USJI, all this does is to
waive the time in grade for promotion. The person still needs to test in front
of the local/regional promotions committee for that promotion to become official
and and the rank registered. This latter is important if the person wants to
compete in national events, since contestants must show proof of rank, ie., the
black belt certificate.
As far as I know, there is no real standarization for rank requirements between
the 3 national organizations. The 'JA seems to be the most lenient as regards
time in grade and although more points are needed for promotion (in principle
but not necessarily in practice), points are awarded for more activities and
competition points can be mixed with noncompetition points. The disparity is
blatantly unfair. Since I know people who have been promoted in the 'JA without
testing or verification of their points and solely based on their sensei's
recommendation, I feel that those who test for their promotions, in some way
have "earned" it more and that it means more.
--
Allen Gordon *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gor...@spot.colorado.edu *toads, each would be more intelligent than *
*Aristotle *
Jennifer O'Brien
(GORDON ALLEN R) wrote:
> Batsugun promotions are not all that uncommon. I know quite of few
people who
> have been awarded shodan in this way. However, in the USJI, all this
does is to
> waive the time in grade for promotion. The person still needs to test
in front
> of the local/regional promotions committee for that promotion to become
official
> and and the rank registered. This latter is important if the person wants to
> compete in national events, since contestants must show proof of rank,
ie., the
> black belt certificate.
Maybe that's what he was talking about. All of our black belts get their
ranks registered with USJI and the Kodokan.
> As far as I know, there is no real standarization for rank requirements
between
> the 3 national organizations.
Or even within each organization. I hear USJF standards vary from place
to place.
The 'JA seems to be the most lenient as regards
> time in grade and although more points are needed for promotion (in principle
> but not necessarily in practice), points are awarded for more activities and
> competition points can be mixed with noncompetition points. The disparity is
> blatantly unfair. Since I know people who have been promoted in the 'JA
without
> testing or verification of their points and solely based on their sensei's
> recommendation,
I also noted that points are awarded differently. In (USJF) Shufu, we get
1 pt for defeating an opponent of equal rank. A previous poster (can't
remember who) indicated that in USJA it is 2 pts. So the numbers may not
be comparable either. The only time we get 2 points is when we defeat an
opponent 2 or more ranks above at the promotional tournament (only 1.5 at
a regular tournament). And one point for each win (even if of lower rank)
at the "biggies": Nationals, US Open, Olympic Festival, etc.
I feel that those who test for their promotions, in some way
> have "earned" it more and that it means more.
I agree, and though I was glad to be promoted, I now wish that they had
made me test. Here I am an Ikkyu thinking about testing for Shodan and
have never tested for promotion before--the whole idea of taking a test
has become way more stressful than it needs to be.
--
Jenny O'Brien
GORDON ALLEN R
>I also noted that points are awarded differently. In (USJF) Shufu, we get
>1 pt for defeating an opponent of equal rank. A previous poster (can't
>remember who) indicated that in USJA it is 2 pts. So the numbers may not
>be comparable either. The only time we get 2 points is when we defeat an
>opponent 2 or more ranks above at the promotional tournament (only 1.5 at
>a regular tournament). And one point for each win (even if of lower rank)
>at the "biggies": Nationals, US Open, Olympic Festival, etc.
In compensation, the 'JA requires more points for promotion to an equivalent
grade as does the 'JI.
>I agree, and though I was glad to be promoted, I now wish that they had
>made me test. Here I am an Ikkyu thinking about testing for Shodan and
>have never tested for promotion before--the whole idea of taking a test
>has become way more stressful than it needs to be.
Club promotion tests are valuable in that they do prepare one for the BB test
in front of strangers. However, when I first started, back in Chicago, under
the JBBF, we had brown belt promotion tests in front of a board of examiners.
One problem with local club tests, at least around here, is that very few
clubs test for kata skills. Presumably, brown belts should know nage no kata
as uke, but it seems that so few BB, know the tori part well enough to teach
it or even demonstrate it, there's very few folks who can go thru it with
the brown belts for their tests. I know that the kata subcommittee for the
USJI is attempting to improve the status of kata nationally, but, it is a
slow process.
>--
>Jenny O'Brien
Jim Shupe
Our USJA club tests all promotions, even from white to yellow belt. The
ONLY time we waive points is for the white to yellow belt test since some
students don't have an opportunity to compete in the early stages of their
training.
Yes, USJA has more opportunities to gain points, like refereeing, being a
registered coach, working tables etc. I have yet to see a time in grade
waived at any of the USJA clubs in this area.
Jennifer O'Brien
(JudoSensei) wrote:
Also, the chart didn't mention some of the other requirements for
promotion--it was just a minimum time in grade chart. In our area, you
must also pass a written test (on such things as terminology, rules, and
other basic principals), you need to be able to demonstrate certain
techniques for each rank (and teach them for the dan ranks), demonstrate
various kata, and as Iz said, obtain points toward promotion. For
promotion to Shodan in this area, you need 20 points--that's 20 contest
wins against equal or higher rank since becoming an ikkyu--not 20 in your
entire judo career. Even if you are good, it takes a while to rack up 20
wins against opponents of equal or greater rank.
Especially for women in the higher kyu, low dan ranks (whine)--there
aren't that many regular competitors in my area that I'd even get points
for beating :-(. Until recently there was a huge void between sankyu and
nidan among the local female competitors--there were only two of us.
Sure promotion from 6th kyu to 5th kyu can be done fairly quickly--the
learning curve is pretty steep at first. Besides, (as I understand it)
the main criteria for promotion at that point is the ability to fall well
enough to keep from getting yourself hurt in competition and being able
to demonstrate a few throws (you are expected to know 8 for that
promotion) at a very low level of competence. Contest wins are not even
required for that promotion.
--
Jenny O'Brien
GORDON ALLEN R
>Without getting into a pissing war between Allen and I...
Not too worry...
>Our USJA club tests all promotions, even from white to yellow belt. The
>ONLY time we waive points is for the white to yellow belt test since some
>students don't have an opportunity to compete in the early stages of their
>training.
>Yes, USJA has more opportunities to gain points, like refereeing, being a
>registered coach, working tables etc. I have yet to see a time in grade
>waived at any of the USJA clubs in this area.
I was referring to the USJA per se, not the individual clubs. Also, points
earned at shiai, referring, timings etc., all count toward promotion in the
'JI, its just that you can't mix those points with competition points. It
just seems unfair to me that for example, in the 'JI, you need 6 years time in
grade for Nidan (2 years for competitors) and 20 points, whereas you need
50 points and 2 years (or 60 points and 3 years) in the 'JA (also, testing may
be a requirement in the 'JA, but I have rarely seen it done).
Daniel R. Israel
sh...@crazyhorse.rchland.ibm.com says...
>
>Without getting into a pissing war between Allen and I...
>
>ONLY time we waive points is for the white to yellow belt test since some
>students don't have an opportunity to compete in the early stages of their
>training.
>
>Yes, USJA has more opportunities to gain points, like refereeing, being a
>registered coach, working tables etc. I have yet to see a time in grade
>waived at any of the USJA clubs in this area.
And that's good. I like to believe that 9 of 10 instructors (JA/JF,
whatever) conduct themselves in this manner. Some instructors just want ot
have rank, holding it as a whip in one hand and a lure in the other hand.
If people had integrity, they'd just follow the guidelines, and there
wouldn't be so many bitches.
-Izz
PS: Incidentally, I train at the USJF national office, and I know that this
crap occurs here too, but is dwindling in the past 2 years since the change
in Executive Directors and Promotion chairs.
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>I was referring to the USJA per se, not the individual clubs. Also, points
>earned at shiai, referring, timings etc., all count toward promotion in the
>'JI, its just that you can't mix those points with competition points. It
>just seems unfair to me that for example, in the 'JI, you need 6 years time
in
>grade for Nidan (2 years for competitors) and 20 points, whereas you need
>50 points and 2 years (or 60 points and 3 years) in the 'JA (also, testing
may
>be a requirement in the 'JA, but I have rarely seen it done).
When I was a JA member (admittedly many years ago) I was tested for EVERY
promotion which I got.
-Izz
Jim Shupe
|>
|> I was referring to the USJA per se, not the individual clubs. Also, points
|> earned at shiai, referring, timings etc., all count toward promotion in the
|> 'JI, its just that you can't mix those points with competition points. It
|> just seems unfair to me that for example, in the 'JI, you need 6 years time in
|> grade for Nidan (2 years for competitors) and 20 points, whereas you need
|> 50 points and 2 years (or 60 points and 3 years) in the 'JA (also, testing may
|> be a requirement in the 'JA, but I have rarely seen it done).
|>
When you say 2 years for competitors... does this mean that any competitor
whether successful or not will only need 2 years in grade? Does the
6 years in grade for non-competitors mean that someone who refs, teaches,
organizes tournaments etc. is required to remain at shodan for 6 years
just like the guy who only comes to practice and puts his/her time in?
The only way to make 3 years and 60 points is with competition unless you
travel around the country working at every tournament every weekend. If
you work a local/state tournament you get 1 full point for the day, so that
would (usually) amount to 60 tournaments... then you get tested. Don't
know how it is in other areas but you MUST get tested around here. I've
only seen one individual who could skip their test (our sensei just got
promoted Nidan to Sandan) and was not required to test. Of course he's
had his former rank for years and has developed a number of outstanding
tournament judoka. His promotion letter indicated that he would be
required to test for his next promotion and that test would be strict.
This is the only exception I've seen since I've been in Minnesota...
doesn't mean others don't exist but everyone else I've seen promoted
HAD to test.
Karen Nagai
her Kodokan rank when she attends functions outside the dojo.
I'd follow her lead except she earned hers there and I just wrote
a check for mine. sigh.
karen
judoka
John F. Fogh
(JudoSensei) wrote:
> Maybe you didn't understand that the chart showed 6 months as the minimum
> time requirement as 1st kyu. According to the chart the normal time in
> grade from beginning to first dan was 5 to 6 and a half years. It took me
> 8 so I guess I am slow too. I was not sure of what your point was as to
> why you quit judo. Did you quit because promotions are too easy? I have
> never heard that before.
My experiences with the varrious orginizations may be dated ( early 80's )
but I have met Shodans with 6 months in Judo. I remember teaching ukemi to
a white belt who later switched clubs, but I ran into him again ( about 8
months later) and he was an Ikkyu. If this doesn't happen anymore, I'm
glad.
As to my leaving Judo:
I was sick of the attitude in my area. The Gentle Way had changed to
wrestling in pajamas for big trophies. I would watch the tournement
players show up to class 30 minutes early tape their fingers and pull on
pads. Then these guys would slop through some techniques until someone got
hurt or class was over.
- John
Jim
the Kodokan. Could you describe what one looks like for me?
This is a serious question. Does it say you have gotten a shodan
on it or does it say somehting else? I realize it is written in
both Japenesse and english but I'm very curiouos.
Thanks
jim
--
Jim
GORDON ALLEN R
>When you say 2 years for competitors... does this mean that any competitor
>whether successful or not will only need 2 years in grade? Does the
>6 years in grade for non-competitors mean that someone who refs, teaches,
>organizes tournaments etc. is required to remain at shodan for 6 years
>just like the guy who only comes to practice and puts his/her time in?
In the two years, the competitor has to earn 20 points. Thus, the time in
grade is a minimal requirement because if the competitor is not sucessful then
it will take longer for him to earn 20 points.
>The only way to make 3 years and 60 points is with competition unless you
>travel around the country working at every tournament every weekend. If
>you work a local/state tournament you get 1 full point for the day, so that
>would (usually) amount to 60 tournaments...
The 'JA awards points for teaching as well at a rate something like .1 points
per class up to some maximum. Someone on this list in an earlier discussion
also indicated that the 'JA awards points for blowing your nose and sponsering
judo related picnics... I think also that the 'JA awards more points for dif-
ferent activities than the 'JI does for those activities. I was looking at my
points record and I would have no problem totalling 60 points in a year (and I
haven't blown my nose all that often). However, my choice is to go with the
'JI, 'cuz the promotion would mean more to me, even though I have to wait much
longer.
Remember also that if you assist at national or international events, you can
get more than 1 point per day per event. Also, attending clinics earns points.
This brings me to the current issue of the 'JA magazine, now called something
like US Martial Arts. It seemed to me like one long advertisement for getting
your rank certified or getting promoted and all of the ways that you could do
it. Any one see it yet? Comments?
Daniel R. Israel
74047...@CompuServe.COM says...
Reading off of the wall... It says:
Mr. [your name written in]
is herewith licensed to rank in the [fill in #, First, Second...] Dan of the
Kodokan Judo of Japanese origin, in recognition of the great progress that he has
made by his diligent study of the art.
We expect him to endeavor for further progress in the future.
Toyko, [Date written in]
[Signed by KDK president Yukimitsu Kano]
This is the same up to 3rd dan. 4th dan and up, it is different. I can post that
if anybody REALLY wants to know. Ladies certificates are slightly different as
well.
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
>This brings me to the current issue of the 'JA magazine, now called something
>like US Martial Arts. It seemed to me like one long advertisement for getting
>your rank certified or getting promoted and all of the ways that you could do
>it. Any one see it yet? Comments?
Can you send me a copy of that? Oughta be good for a chuckle...
-Izz
John F. Fogh
jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> For some unknown reason you think you can make Shodan in USJA Judo in
> a year, **WRONG**.
Actualy this reason is known: I HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN. If things have
changed in the years since this happend then so much the better.
> Tournament points are not easy to get... if you are at "big" tournaments
> which usually means regional or national level tournaments then the
> competitors are usually better. Sure you get a few points for entering
> the tournament (I think it is 2 for a regional) and you get points for
> beating people but... you get 0 pts for beating a player more than 2 ranks
> below you, 1/2 point 2 ranks below, 1 pt for one ranks, 2 pts for even ranks
> 3 points for a rank above and 4 points for 2 or more ranks above. Let me
> tell you, I've very rarely beaten someone 2 or more ranks above my level.
> Beating a 6th kyu, as a seventh kyu means that you've the skills to progress,
> proving that again and again over a period of time legitimizes it.
Does it? Couldn't mean that you have been fighting alot of physicaly &
technicaly weak people? If I can beat a 6 year old 9 out of 10 times does
that in anyway indicate my skill or ability? I know that is hyperbolic,
but the premise is the same: beating people of lesser skill is not much of
a test.
> Of course your argument "against" judo begs the fact that you can not get
> promoted (at lest in USJA) without testing and without the approval of
> your Sensei.
Gee I know several Sensei's who have promoted people to "grow into the rank"
I.E."Here, your an Ikkyu now, start acting like one.."
> If your friend's "story" about going from 7th to 1st kyu is true. then I'd
> like to know the association or federation he belongs to... I'd also like
> to know his name, his club, his sensei's name, etc. so that such a travesty
> could be corrected if at all possible. While I readily admit that exceptional
> students deserve to be promoted quickly, your friend's organization sounds
> like a joke and I believe it is hurting Judo instead of benefiting it.
I have no intention of singling out individuals, and I would rather not
point fingers at Dojos or orginizations. Sorry. I am not trying to point
fingers. I am saying that the ranking system I saw has some real flaws. If
you disagree, then you are welcome to do so. I did not expect overwhelming
love and support for my observations.
Now for the irrational part:
> Finally, in the future it would be nice if you asked for an explanation
> of what you don't understand instead of immediately going of on your
> assumptions (which were quite wrong) and trying to degrade what you do
> not understand
My wrong assumption (which Dan pointed out) was that the time in grade was
cumulative. In my experience (not conjecture, but first hand experience)
this is (or was) not the practice. I think that it is quite rude (and
disappointing) for you to pop off with this last little tirade, after you
wrote such a well considered post.
What I understand is that ranking systems like this hamper a Sensei's
ability to promote as they see fit. The idea is that your sensei knows
what he/she is doing and promotes deserving students at the appropriate
rate. Your Sensei sees you practice, and watches your attitude as well as
your technique develop. As you gain understanding and skill you are given
more responsibility and new things to learn. From what you have said
about the USJA, a sensei merely has veto power over promotions.
The idea of having an orgniziation with a ranking system is to quantify
each rank. This works fine in a closed system. It breaks down in the real
world.
I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
through their system. This is the problem. Who's ranking system is right?
USJA? USJF? USJ&JF? My answer is none of them.
Sorry about the bandwidth on this one....
- John
Jennifer O'Brien
jf...@halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) wrote:
> I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
> time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
> through their system. This is the problem.
I thought that each of the 3 governing bodies (USJF, USJA, USJI)
recognized each other's ranks.
--
Jenny O'Brien
JudoSensei
something
>like US Martial Arts. It seemed to me like one long advertisement for
getting
>your rank certified or getting promoted and all of the ways that you
could do
>it. Any one see it yet? Comments?
>
You mean it isn't just an advertisement for Life Memberships anymore?
Sounds much more interesting.
Neil Ohlenkamp
John F. Fogh
(Jennifer O'Brien) wrote:
> > I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
> > time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
> > through their system. This is the problem.
>
> I thought that each of the 3 governing bodies (USJF, USJA, USJI)
> recognized each other's ranks.
>
> --
> Jenny O'Brien
If all of the these orginizations do recognize each others ranks than why
are any of them envolved in the ranking structure at all? I think that an
orginization that set up tournements, and events would be great! The
politics are the problem.
- John
JudoSensei
>about the USJA, a sensei merely has veto power over promotions.
In USJA, as in every other organization, the sensei makes the decision. No
rank is given out without the sensei's approval.
>I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
>time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
>through their system. This is the problem. Who's ranking system is right?
>USJA? USJF? USJ&JF? My answer is none of them.
Of course no system is perfect. However each organization recognizes each
others ranks. Just show your card and USJA will accept your rank.
Neil Ohlenkamp
JudoSensei
pages about local clubs (and how loyal they are to USJA) and 48 pages of
ads for USJA camps, seminars, life memberships, manuals, tournaments, and
promotions in all martial arts. All but 5 pages have previously been
mailed by USJA to each club sensei and most life members. According to the
magazine it takes $15000 to mail this issue out. It is hard to believe
that it will bring in enough to cover its costs.
Neil Ohlenkamp
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>> > time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
>> > through their system. This is the problem.
>>
>> recognized each other's ranks.
>>
>> --
>> Jenny O'Brien
>
> If all of the these orginizations do recognize each others ranks than why
>are any of them envolved in the ranking structure at all? I think that an
>orginization that set up tournements, and events would be great! The
>politics are the problem.
>
> - John
For tournament purposes, they have to recognize each others ranks. Also when
people jump ship, they have to know where to place them. The problem is that too
many people want to be in charge of what's going on.
-Izz
GORDON ALLEN R
>I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
>time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
>USJA? USJF? USJ&JF? My answer is none of them.
If you are not a member of the 'JA, it doesn't think of you at all. When you
join, it will accept the rank you hold from the other organizations. The USJI
and the 'JA and I presume the 'JF all have 'reciprocity'.
Jim Shupe
jfogh
|> Does it? Couldn't mean that you have been fighting alot of physicaly &
|> technicaly weak people? If I can beat a 6 year old 9 out of 10 times does
|> that in anyway indicate my skill or ability? I know that is hyperbolic,
|> but the premise is the same: beating people of lesser skill is not much of
|> a test.
If rank is awarded appropriately, then beating someone of a greater rank
does indicate that your skill is superior. Matching is done by age, rank
and weight, your argument (which followed) about beating a six year old
as an adult is a non-sequitor.
|> Now for the irrational part:
|>
|> > Finally, in the future it would be nice if you asked for an explanation
|> > of what you don't understand instead of immediately going of on your
|> > assumptions (which were quite wrong) and trying to degrade what you do
|> > not understand
|>
|> My wrong assumption (which Dan pointed out) was that the time in grade was
|> cumulative. In my experience (not conjecture, but first hand experience)
|> this is (or was) not the practice. I think that it is quite rude (and
|> disappointing) for you to pop off with this last little tirade, after you
|> wrote such a well considered post.
Actually, I wasn't irrational... you went off on an argument which made
no sense about making Shodan in 6 months... you *obviously* did not under-
stand the chart, yet felt compelled to discuss it and degrade the ranking
system which was listed. Your first hand experience is limited to a very
(apparently) short time span and to a limited subset of Judo. My experience
**SEEMS** a bit broader and my experience contradicts yours... so who was
being irrational?
|> What I understand is that ranking systems like this hamper a Sensei's
|> ability to promote as they see fit. The idea is that your sensei knows
|> what he/she is doing and promotes deserving students at the appropriate
|> rate. Your Sensei sees you practice, and watches your attitude as well as
|> your technique develop. As you gain understanding and skill you are given
|> more responsibility and new things to learn. From what you have said
|> about the USJA, a sensei merely has veto power over promotions.
Again, this doesn't follow from the series of posts. Senseis, in most
situations have to put a student in for promotion... the USJA just doesn't
send out promotions to anyone who has time in grade and who had the points.
The sensei is *required* to test the student and recommend them for promotion.
*However*, if a Batsugun were awarded then the time in grade is waived and
when the sensei sees fit, the student is promoted. Again, you talk as
if you were informed on something you appear to have little knowledge about.
|> The idea of having an orgniziation with a ranking system is to quantify
|> each rank. This works fine in a closed system. It breaks down in the real
|> world.
|> I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
|> time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
|> through their system. This is the problem. Who's ranking system is right?
|> USJA? USJF? USJ&JF? My answer is none of them.
Your second statement is false. As a general rule, the USJA recognizes
rank from ANY OTHER RECOGNIZED organization. USJA, USJF, USJI ranks are
all accepted at most tournaments as are the students' insurance and
other credentials. You're not considered a white belt in USJA, you aren't
considered at all... however, if you wanted to take advantage of the USJA's
benefits you would have to submit proof of your rank from your other
school/organization (just as I did) and then your rank would (likely) be
recognized.
To your last point... so which ranking system is "correct?" Of course the
only ranking system which SHOULD be followed is the Kodokan ranking system,
but do the various organizations do this...? I know USJA ranks are
recognized by the Kodokan, so the system must not be TOO faulty. Remember,
the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
Daniel R. Israel
>
>jf...@halcyon.com (John F. Fogh) writes:
>|> jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com wrote:
>
>jfogh
>|> Does it? Couldn't mean that you have been fighting alot of physicaly &
>|> technicaly weak people? If I can beat a 6 year old 9 out of 10 times does
>|> that in anyway indicate my skill or ability? I know that is hyperbolic,
>|> but the premise is the same: beating people of lesser skill is not much of
>|> a test.
>
>If rank is awarded appropriately, then beating someone of a greater rank
>does indicate that your skill is superior. Matching is done by age, rank
>and weight, your argument (which followed) about beating a six year old
>as an adult is a non-sequitor.
If rank were REALLY awarded appropriately, we wouldn't have the problems we have now...
Starting with this thread.
The sensei is not *required* to test the student. If the sensei recommends that student, there
is no followup to see if the test was actually done. Ask Allen Gordon about this (sorry Allen).
In my experience, the JA doesn't really follow up on checking out the rank recommendations.
Also, they are lax when a head instructor applies for promotion, as no real procedures exist for
promoting someone not really training under their sensei any longer.
>|> The idea of having an orgniziation with a ranking system is to quantify
>|> each rank. This works fine in a closed system. It breaks down in the real
>|> world.
>|> I have never been a member of the USJA, but I have been in Judo for some
>|> time. The USJA considers me a white belt, because I did not advance
>|> through their system. This is the problem. Who's ranking system is right?
>|> USJA? USJF? USJ&JF? My answer is none of them.
>
>Your second statement is false. As a general rule, the USJA recognizes
>rank from ANY OTHER RECOGNIZED organization. USJA, USJF, USJI ranks are
>all accepted at most tournaments as are the students' insurance and
>other credentials. You're not considered a white belt in USJA, you aren't
>considered at all... however, if you wanted to take advantage of the USJA's
>benefits you would have to submit proof of your rank from your other
>school/organization (just as I did) and then your rank would (likely) be
>recognized.
Due to the USJI, all US judo organizations recognize ranks from each other AND from any National
Governing body from another country. Having to submit proof of rank is not always true. I
personally know 2 people ranked Godan and Rokudan respectively in the USJA who STARTED in the
USJA (both at Godan) without producing any proof of rank. One of these people actually claimed
to know someone I knew (A good friend) and said that this person promoted him to Godan in Japan.
When talking to this friend, he said that he never heard of him and couldn't ever find any
record of him training anywhere in Japan. Kind of odd for someone of high rank, y'know.
>To your last point... so which ranking system is "correct?" Of course the
>only ranking system which SHOULD be followed is the Kodokan ranking system,
>but do the various organizations do this...? I know USJA ranks are
>recognized by the Kodokan, so the system must not be TOO faulty.
The kodokan does not recognize USJA rank. Nor do they recognize USJF rank. To be recognized by
the kodokan, you have to have KODOKAN rank. There is a national board in America which reviews
promotions and if satisfactory, sends them to the Kodokan, where there are again reviewed.
Sometimes, the national board turns them down, sometimes the kodokan does, sometimes, not a
problem. What can be a problem is this: If you want your rank from the Kodokan, they want you
to register with them at Shodan. If you register with them as Shodan, you can later apply for
Nidan, and so forth. If you never register, and, for example, you get a Godan by some American
organization, the kodokan will not recognize it because they never recognized you as shodan. In
our club, when we get our JF rank, we also apply to kodokan. I may never NEED to be recognized
by the kodokan, but if 20 years down the road, I decide otherwise, it's not a problem. Only
problem is, it's EXPENSIVE! I think about $100 for Shodan and then it goes up from there. Ask
Neil Ohlenkamp about it, I recently helped him get in touch with the KDK board to get his rank
recognized by KDK, so he might have more recent pricing...
> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
I disagree. The sensei should ALWAYS have final say on whether or not the student gets
promoted.
-Izz
Karen Nagai
a whole lot deleted
>
>organization, the kodokan will not recognize it because they never recognized you as shodan. In
>our club, when we get our JF rank, we also apply to kodokan. I may never NEED to be recognized
>by the kodokan, but if 20 years down the road, I decide otherwise, it's not a problem. Only
>problem is, it's EXPENSIVE! I think about $100 for Shodan and then it goes up from there. Ask
>Neil Ohlenkamp about it, I recently helped him get in touch with the KDK board to get his rank
>recognized by KDK, so he might have more recent pricing...
Argh, I've seen (and felt) the recent fee schedule, I'm
going through the process myself. Only reason I applied is
to show the number of yudansha studying with our sensei.
Whether that's even noted on our apps, I don't know, but
it made it a lot easier to write the check.
>
>> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
>
Actually, no. That's why my Japanese friends wonder why
we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
karen
GORDON ALLEN R
Thats there too. You can get the JJ manual for a life membership as well as
the video tapes etc.
One thing was that there a great number of judo/JJ camps this summer that were
announced in the magazine.
GORDON ALLEN R
>If rank is awarded appropriately, then beating someone of a greater rank
>does indicate that your skill is superior. Matching is done by age, rank
This argument tends to weight ones contest performance as a measure of skill and
judo knowledge, which is exactly the situation that we have now. This then
tends to de-emphasise other aspects of judo, like kata. Rank has to include
more that what we might call 'skill'. A great coach, for example, may have
little skill executing a technique, but may be able to teach it and get others
to execute it. How does rank fit in here?
>Again, this doesn't follow from the series of posts. Senseis, in most
>situations have to put a student in for promotion... the USJA just doesn't
>send out promotions to anyone who has time in grade and who had the points.
>The sensei is *required* to test the student and recommend them for promotion.
>*However*, if a Batsugun were awarded then the time in grade is waived and
>when the sensei sees fit, the student is promoted. Again, you talk as
>if you were informed on something you appear to have little knowledge about.
Actually, at least according to the 'JI, batsugun waives the time in grade,
allowing you to test sooner for the rank---but you still have to test. Now this
may be more of a formality in practice, especially if the batsugun is awarded by
higher ranking BB. Who on the board would "dare" override the recommendation?
I suppose that this has been done, especially when feuds between different fac-
tions exist. Then the judoka becomes a pawn. Not too long ago, one of our
better competitors was eligible for promotion to godan. I practiced some kata
with him for the test. He didn't test, because of personal reasons, but before
he withdrew, the comments on the side were, "who would (dare) fail him"?
This kind of raises at least some question about promotion tests and goes back
to trusting the validity of a recomendation by a higher ranking BB. I guess
the certification by the various associations, tends to "legitimize" the
process. The process is far too political for us peons and purists, but that is
the way that it is. Recent discussions I have had have indicated to me that
the there tend to be more higher ranking judoka in japan than in the US. This
puts visiting coaches and teachers as well as representatives from the various
organizations, at a disadvantage, if they are of a lower rank. One effort,
although not without flaws, as has been pointed out to me, is to increase
the number of higher ranking judoka to be more on a par with our overseas
counterparts. It is an attempt to get our teachers at the appropriate ranks,
since traditionally, one is not considered to be a teacher until rokyodan
(shodan - sandan are students, Yodan and Godan are skilled techncians).
I must add here that I have been a purist and a traditionalist. I have main-
tained a staunch position that the 'JA is too liberal and the 'JI, although in
many ways too strict, was "correct" because they absolutely required testing
for promotions above Ikkyu. I chided a friend because he didn't want to wait
the 6 years time in grade to be eligible for nidan as per 'JI regs. On satur-
day, I was surprised by at the end of a class, attended by Porter sensei, that
he called out my name for promotion to nidan. I almost fell over. I had been
recommended by a godan with whom I have taught and practiced with. Given my
past positions on things I was definitely in shock, but was told later that
there are a lot of shodan with less than half the knowledge than I have and that
this promotion was correct. I've spent most of the weekend in a partial state
of denial and thinking that this promotion is not as valuable as if I had
waited and tested for it. I am coming to a state of acceptance with it and
eating crow (at least in my mind).
I don't know if this latter bit of rambling has added anything to the discussion
of the promotion question, but it is my hope that it has. If anything, any
system has it good points along with its abuses.
Allen
GORDON ALLEN R
>The sensei is not *required* to test the student. If the sensei recommends that student, there
>is no followup to see if the test was actually done. Ask Allen Gordon about this (sorry Allen).
>In my experience, the JA doesn't really follow up on checking out the rank recommendations.
>Also, they are lax when a head instructor applies for promotion, as no real procedures exist for
>promoting someone not really training under their sensei any longer.
All this is true--please see my other post on this thread that may predate this
post.
Jim Shupe
|> The sensei is not *required* to test the student. If the sensei recommends that student, there
|> is no followup to see if the test was actually done. Ask Allen Gordon about this (sorry Allen).
|> In my experience, the JA doesn't really follow up on checking out the rank recommendations.
|> Also, they are lax when a head instructor applies for promotion, as no real procedures exist for
|> promoting someone not really training under their sensei any longer.
I take it (see I know this isn't true, but you started) that you are
now in the USJA and know ALL the requirements for getting promoted through
the black belt ranks? My understanding (as a member of the USJA) is that
at each rank you have to test before *somebody* and as you get higher in
rank that *somebody* becomes a panel of *sombodies*. So just where does
this "understanding" of how the USJA promotes black belts come from?
I'll agree that up through Green belt they don't "follow-up" but those
really aren't ranks anyhow, are they? At brown belt there is a written
test which must be submitted w/ your recommendation (according to my
sensei it *must* be). For black belts you, according to USJA guidelines
and according to the black belts in this area, must go before a higher
ranking black belt and test to be promoted.
|> Due to the USJI, all US judo organizations recognize ranks from each other AND from any National
|> Governing body from another country. Having to submit proof of rank is not always true. I
|> personally know 2 people ranked Godan and Rokudan respectively in the USJA who STARTED in the
|> USJA (both at Godan) without producing any proof of rank. One of these people actually claimed
|> to know someone I knew (A good friend) and said that this person promoted him to Godan in Japan.
|> When talking to this friend, he said that he never heard of him and couldn't ever find any
|> record of him training anywhere in Japan. Kind of odd for someone of high rank, y'know.
Sure, so we're back to hearsay... I know that I was *REQUIRED* to submit
proof of promotion which they checked out (assuming that a 3 month delay
indicated they checked it out) to get my rank accepted in USJA. So which
hearsay evidence do we accept? A first hand account or a second/third
hand account?
|> The kodokan does not recognize USJA rank. Nor do they recognize USJF rank. To be recognized by
|> the kodokan, you have to have KODOKAN rank. There is a national board in America which reviews
|> promotions and if satisfactory, sends them to the Kodokan, where there are again reviewed.
|> Sometimes, the national board turns them down, sometimes the kodokan does, sometimes, not a
Interesting, that's not what the USJA claims. I'll grant that I
haven't called the Kodokan to "find out" but I will not grant that
you are necessarily right. We all know that You and Allen have a
"thing" against the USJA... how do you expect me/us to believe what
you say about the JA when we know you have this prejudice? Now, I'm
not calling you a liar but your known attitude toward the JA makes
your claims against it suspect...
I admit that The Kodokan might not accept JA ranks, I don't know for
sure... but I'll sure find out as I was led to believe that the
Kodokan *did* accept the ranks.
|> > Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
|>
|> I disagree. The sensei should ALWAYS have final say on whether or not the student gets
|> promoted.
I think you missed the point of that last bit Izz... a local sensei is
*NOT* the authority on *Judo*. (S)He may be the authority on your
promotion. The promotion guidelines, however, should come from the
authority on Judo, and that is the Kodokan.
Jim Shupe
|> >
|> >> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
|> >
|> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
|>
So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
If Izz and your friends are right then Judo shouldn't be considered a
comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
Judo, etc.
Jim Shupe
|> nag...@u.washington.edu (Karen Nagai) writes:
|> |> >
|> |> >> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
|> |> >
|> |> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
|> |>
|>
|> So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
|> original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
|> GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
|>
|> If Izz and your friends are right then Judo shouldn't be considered a
|> comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
|> Judo, etc.
I take that back, maybe we should just go back to calling it Kano JuJutsu
and forget the argument about authority...
This whole thread reflects EXACTLY what John Fogh was talking about (in
part)... everyone has their own definition of what is right and good and
(it appears) are not looking to find compromises only to push their views
down everyone elses' throat.
Hell, we can't even recognize that the founder of Judo's Dojo is *THE*
authority on the Art... how the Hell can we agree on anything else.
GORDON ALLEN R
>Interesting, that's not what the USJA claims. I'll grant that I
>haven't called the Kodokan to "find out" but I will not grant that
>you are necessarily right. We all know that You and Allen have a
>"thing" against the USJA... how do you expect me/us to believe what
>you say about the JA when we know you have this prejudice? Now, I'm
>not calling you a liar but your known attitude toward the JA makes
>your claims against it suspect...
What is/was my "thing" against the 'JA. Sure I think there is a lot of hype
and that promotions have been too easy (from what I have seen). But I think I
have at the very least been schizophrenic about the 'JA, in that I have
expressed what I thought was 'bad' as well as good. I was also expressing my
frustrations with it. In spite of the difficulties, I am still involved with
the 'JA jujitsu program, not so much because I think its a good program (we all
know that it needs lots of work), but to support people whom I respect, who are
implementing the program. To say that I have a 'thing' about the 'JA (or any-
thing for that matter) isn't really fair and a vast oversimplification.
`
Allen
GORDON ALLEN R
>nag...@u.washington.edu (Karen Nagai) writes:
>|> >
>|> >
>|> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
>|>
>So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
>original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
>GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
>If Izz and your friends are right then Judo shouldn't be considered a
>comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
>Judo, etc.
Since none of us have direct access to Kano, we are forced to learn judo thru
our instructors interpretations of judo. As an example, Dan and I have
discussed a piece of one technique from nage no kata. The kodokan form for this
technique differs from the US standard as implemented by Fukuda Sensei. It
involves the motion of the arms when executing uki otoshi. Who is correct here?
There are valid reasons for both perspectives, or perhaps both are looking at
the technique from slight differing perspectives. In any event, the base of
judo comes from Kano shihan. But like a tree, it continues to grow and evolve.
It does not, cannot remain stagnant. But the base, the roots, remain the same.
Now if one reads Draeger about this, it is clear that kata is the roots of the
tree of judo. Like a tree, when the roots die, the tree dies. Similarly, if
it cannot continue to grow, it will die. Thus, the interpretations of the
original forms are essential, as are the original forms. So who it the
authority here?
Karen Nagai
Jim Shupe <jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>nag...@u.washington.edu (Karen Nagai) writes:
>|> >
>|> >> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
>|> >
>|> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
>
>So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
>original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
>GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
We're talking about ranks and certifications, aren't we?
Not judo, not really, just paperwork and promotions.
The only consistency is that there is no consistency.
>
>If Izz and your friends are right then Judo shouldn't be considered a
>comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
>Judo, etc.
A comprehensive art if taught that way. But we do the
judo we're taught and teach the judo we learned.
karen
"clearly capable of misreading everything"
Daniel R. Israel
>
>Daniel R. Israel) writes:
>|> The sensei is not *required* to test the student. If the sensei recommends t
>hat student, there
>|> is no followup to see if the test was actually done. Ask Allen Gordon about
>this (sorry Allen).
>|> In my experience, the JA doesn't really follow up on checking out the rank re
>commendations.
>|> Also, they are lax when a head instructor applies for promotion, as no real p
>rocedures exist for
>|> promoting someone not really training under their sensei any longer.
>
>I take it (see I know this isn't true, but you started) that you are
>now in the USJA and know ALL the requirements for getting promoted through
>the black belt ranks? My understanding (as a member of the USJA) is that
>at each rank you have to test before *somebody* and as you get higher in
>rank that *somebody* becomes a panel of *sombodies*. So just where does
>this "understanding" of how the USJA promotes black belts come from?
>
>I'll agree that up through Green belt they don't "follow-up" but those
>really aren't ranks anyhow, are they? At brown belt there is a written
>test which must be submitted w/ your recommendation (according to my
>sensei it *must* be). For black belts you, according to USJA guidelines
>and according to the black belts in this area, must go before a higher
>ranking black belt and test to be promoted.
See Allen's post. He was promoted with no testing this last weekend to Nidan. Therefore, it
doesn't work that way *ALL* the time, which is what you claim. I admit that it will work the
way you say if and only if everyone follows the guidelines! If one person, in this case the
highest ranking person in the organization, can override all this, what does this say about the
guidelines?
>|> Due to the USJI, all US judo organizations recognize ranks from each other AN
>D from any National
>|> Governing body from another country. Having to submit proof of rank is not a
>lways true. I
>|> personally know 2 people ranked Godan and Rokudan respectively in the USJA wh
>o STARTED in the
>|> USJA (both at Godan) without producing any proof of rank. One of these peopl
>e actually claimed
>|> to know someone I knew (A good friend) and said that this person promoted him
> to Godan in Japan.
>|> When talking to this friend, he said that he never heard of him and couldn't
>ever find any
>|> record of him training anywhere in Japan. Kind of odd for someone of high ra
>nk, y'know.
>
>Sure, so we're back to hearsay... I know that I was *REQUIRED* to submit
>proof of promotion which they checked out (assuming that a 3 month delay
>indicated they checked it out) to get my rank accepted in USJA. So which
>hearsay evidence do we accept? A first hand account or a second/third
>hand account?
2 years ago, my dan rank was accepted by the USJA with no contest. I've also recently been sent
packets to register OTHER MA ranks. They ASK for proof of rank, but I have heard it is not
necessary, therefore, I do not know if they will register another MA without proof of rank. I
do know that my dan rank was recognized, with no questions asked about proof.
>|> The kodokan does not recognize USJA rank. Nor do they recognize USJF rank.
>To be recognized by
>|> the kodokan, you have to have KODOKAN rank. There is a national board in Ame
>rica which reviews
>|> promotions and if satisfactory, sends them to the Kodokan, where there are ag
>ain reviewed.
>|> Sometimes, the national board turns them down, sometimes the kodokan does, so
>metimes, not a
>
>Interesting, that's not what the USJA claims. I'll grant that I
>haven't called the Kodokan to "find out" but I will not grant that
>you are necessarily right. We all know that You and Allen have a
>"thing" against the USJA... how do you expect me/us to believe what
>you say about the JA when we know you have this prejudice? Now, I'm
>not calling you a liar but your known attitude toward the JA makes
>your claims against it suspect...
I am not 'against' the JA. Actually, I am a member of all 3 organizations in America. Allen
was recently promoted by JA. I do not hate the JA. I do hate the fact that the judoka in this
country have to choose between one of 3, thereby splitting our resources. I will admit that I
have some animosity with Phil Porter, but this is personal and goes back to some things he said
to my father many years ago.
>I admit that The Kodokan might not accept JA ranks, I don't know for
>sure... but I'll sure find out as I was led to believe that the
>Kodokan *did* accept the ranks.
If you go to a Kodokan sanctioned tournament in Japan (meaning KDK rules, not IJF) they only
recognize KDK rank. There are MANY cases in which rank is turned down by the KDK. A recent one
was Bob Brink, president of USJF. He was promoted to Godan, and the KDK board OK'd it, but when
sent to Japan, the KDK said no. Had to be resubmitted at a later date.
>|> > Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
>|>
>|> I disagree. The sensei should ALWAYS have final say on whether or not the st
>udent gets
>|> promoted.
>
>I think you missed the point of that last bit Izz... a local sensei is
>*NOT* the authority on *Judo*. (S)He may be the authority on your
>promotion. The promotion guidelines, however, should come from the
>authority on Judo, and that is the Kodokan.
Well, I agree that there should be some set guideline by some higher source, but ALL US
organizations make there own guidelines! The USJF based them on the KDK requirements, but I'm
not too sure about the others. As long as we have these problems, we have problems with rank.
I don't worry because my rank is registered with all 3 american orgs as well as the KDK.
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
sh...@crazyhorse.rchland.ibm.com says...
>
>sh...@crazyhorse.rchland.ibm.com (Jim Shupe) writes:
>|> nag...@u.washington.edu (Karen Nagai) writes:
>|> |> >
>|> |> >
>|> |> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
>|> |>
>|>
>|> So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
>|> original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
>|> GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
>|>
>|> comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
>|> Judo, etc.
>
>and forget the argument about authority...
>
>This whole thread reflects EXACTLY what John Fogh was talking about (in
>part)... everyone has their own definition of what is right and good and
>(it appears) are not looking to find compromises only to push their views
>down everyone elses' throat.
I'm not trying to push my view down ANYONE's throat! I state my opinions, and
if you agree, fine, if not, that's OK too.
>Hell, we can't even recognize that the founder of Judo's Dojo is *THE*
>authority on the Art... how the Hell can we agree on anything else.
Doesn't matter if WE agree on it. It's very apparent that the National Bodies
don't...
-Izz
Jim Shupe
|> What is/was my "thing" against the 'JA. Sure I think there is a lot of hype
|> and that promotions have been too easy (from what I have seen). But I think I
|> have at the very least been schizophrenic about the 'JA, in that I have
|> expressed what I thought was 'bad' as well as good. I was also expressing my
|> frustrations with it. In spite of the difficulties, I am still involved with
|> the 'JA jujitsu program, not so much because I think its a good program (we all
|> know that it needs lots of work), but to support people whom I respect, who are
|> implementing the program. To say that I have a 'thing' about the 'JA (or any-
|> thing for that matter) isn't really fair and a vast oversimplification.
I apologize... I suppose I did oversimplify your stance in regard to the
USJA.
I had become frustrated with the thread and with what I feel is a bias
against the JA on this group. I've yet to experience the "laxness of
USJA promotion requirements." It took me a year to gain my last rank
in the 'JA because of my long layoff from "formalized" judo practice.
I was required to take a written and an oral test to be promoted. Since
my competition is weak (again the layoff) my sensei considered my efforts
with the club especially the fact that I teach the Juniors... if it weren't
for that I'd still be waiting for promotion because I didn't have enough
competition/other points... he used "discretionary" points to boost me
up the last 4 points since I have sole teaching responsibility for the
Juniors. At this point I think I'll toot their horn as well as mine...
We sent 4 juniors to the State championship and took a second, two thirds
and a fifth (Our other juniors were out of town or too new for this level
of competition). My success over the last 8 months with the junior program
figured into my promotion.
Anyhow, back to the point... I apologize for oversimplifying your
position, I should have known better.
Jim Shupe
|> Now if one reads Draeger about this, it is clear that kata is the roots of the
|> tree of judo. Like a tree, when the roots die, the tree dies. Similarly, if
|> it cannot continue to grow, it will die. Thus, the interpretations of the
|> original forms are essential, as are the original forms. So who it the
|> authority here?
You know full well that I agree with you on Kata and that I too am as
much a traditionalist as possible. The point I was making revolves around
an issue of power (as Izz pointed out)... my perspective is that the
Kodokan is as close to Kano as we can currently get and thus should have
the authority for rank requirements and promotions. Note: This does not
indicate a lack of growth... but there is a difference between an evolving
tree and one over-run with wild grapes. I am not implying or stating that
we can not vary techniques... a lack of variation will cause the techs.
to be poor... individuals must modify the techniques to fit their own
structure... HOWEVER, the base technique should be recognizable... so if
a Godan somewhere asked me to do Uki-Goshi (s)he would recognize what
I've done. If the authority for Judo techniques lies in the local sensei
we'll lose the standard(refer to the lack of Kata teaching in the US) and
then lose the art as a whole...
I still hold the authority for requirements for promotion should be the
Kodokan... whether or not I believe the Kodokan has all the right people
there is another story.
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>I had become frustrated with the thread and with what I feel is a bias
>against the JA on this group. I've yet to experience the "laxness of
>USJA promotion requirements."
Good. If more instructors followed the 'standard' guidelines, there wouldn't be
discussions like this. This makes the promotion feel that much better!
>It took me a year to gain my last rank
>in the 'JA because of my long layoff from "formalized" judo practice.
>I was required to take a written and an oral test to be promoted. Since
>my competition is weak (again the layoff) my sensei considered my efforts
>with the club especially the fact that I teach the Juniors... if it weren't
>for that I'd still be waiting for promotion because I didn't have enough
>competition/other points... he used "discretionary" points to boost me
>up the last 4 points since I have sole teaching responsibility for the
>Juniors. At this point I think I'll toot their horn as well as mine...
>We sent 4 juniors to the State championship and took a second, two thirds
>and a fifth (Our other juniors were out of town or too new for this level
>of competition). My success over the last 8 months with the junior program
>figured into my promotion.
There's nothing wrong with that. Contribution to judo (at dojo, local, regional,
national levels) is a major point of promotion, esp. at the very high ranks, ergo,
there is NOTHING wrong with what your instructor did.
Congratulations on the good showing with your juniors! Keep up the good work!
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
>
>gor...@spot.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R) writes:
>|> It does not, cannot remain stagnant. But the base, the roots, remain the sam
>e.
>|> Now if one reads Draeger about this, it is clear that kata is the roots of th
>e
>|> tree of judo. Like a tree, when the roots die, the tree dies. Similarly, if
>|> it cannot continue to grow, it will die. Thus, the interpretations of the
>|> original forms are essential, as are the original forms. So who it the
>|> authority here?
>
>You know full well that I agree with you on Kata and that I too am as
>much a traditionalist as possible. The point I was making revolves around
>an issue of power (as Izz pointed out)... my perspective is that the
>Kodokan is as close to Kano as we can currently get and thus should have
>the authority for rank requirements and promotions. Note: This does not
>indicate a lack of growth... but there is a difference between an evolving
>tree and one over-run with wild grapes. I am not implying or stating that
>we can not vary techniques... a lack of variation will cause the techs.
>to be poor... individuals must modify the techniques to fit their own
>structure... HOWEVER, the base technique should be recognizable... so if
>a Godan somewhere asked me to do Uki-Goshi (s)he would recognize what
>I've done. If the authority for Judo techniques lies in the local sensei
>we'll lose the standard(refer to the lack of Kata teaching in the US) and
>then lose the art as a whole...
In my dojo, I practice kata regularly, but this is not the norm. The main reason for the lack of
kata in the US is that most clubs are emphasizing on competition and look at kata as an
ALTERNATIVE to training for competition instead of a SUPPLEMENT. I had a guest instructor from
Japan here for one year, and he increased my kata practice (emphasizing randori no kata), and he
attributes the increase in my competition results to the increase in kata. It's my opinion that
if you don't practice kata (esp. at dan level) you're not really practicing judo.
>I still hold the authority for requirements for promotion should be the
>Kodokan... whether or not I believe the Kodokan has all the right people
>there is another story.
I agree somewhat with you here. The problem is, the higher ups in this country don't, and until
they do, we'll always have more than one body giving out rank.
-Izz
John F. Fogh
Let me say that this has turned into a fantastic thread. Thanks all.
I used to feel that the Kodokan was the final judge of all rank and
technique, but I tend to agree more with the "evolutionists" on this one
Judo is a concentrate of several Jujitsu arts, so "pure Judo" strikes me
as an oxymoron. Dr. Kano adjusted, revised or excluded Jujitsu techniques
to make Judo. Shouldn't the Art continue to evolve? I wish that the US had
more people able to teach the Katas. I think that the exclusion of the
traditional katas in American Judo is a shame, but a tree must surpass its
roots in order to grow and thrive.
As I look at the bodies of technique in Judo, it seems to me that a Judo
technique is much more than a "move" or a means of taking uke to the mat.
A Judo technique is an illustration of physics and philosophy. Is Uki
Goshi closer to Harai Goshi or O Goshi? Uki Goshi is the middle ground
between the two. The dictonary explains Judo so well. "Using an opponents
size and momentum against him" not "A Martial Art consisting of throws ,
holds and striking techniques."
(Keep reading I'm still planning on tying this into the thread.) A fixed
in stone technique works great if you and uke are the right body type.
Ever seen a textbook Ogoshi done by a 6'5" Tori against a 5' Uke? Some
modifications are required. These modifications allow the art to evolve.
Now after some of these evolutions you have a art that is very much Judo,
but not so much Kodokan. The Kodokan is an orginization like any other,
prone to a lot of polictical and social pressures. All of the
orginizations have a lingeage linked back to Dr. Kano's teachings. They
are all part of the same tree. If every dojo is a leaf, must they all ask
the root for permission to grow? Must they ask the Branch?
I am not in favor of people strapping on a belt and saying that they are
Godans, making up a new set of rules, and calling it Judo. But what if
they do? Some people could get hurt, and some people would not like Judo
because of these imposters. Some people already don't like Judo. Some
people have strapped on black belts and started teaching what they call
Judo. Orginizations don't protect Judo from this. The rank structures laid
down by these orginizations are not untarnished by people claiming ranks
they didn't earn. Imposters hurt the art, but not very much. Is the rank
you earned any less valuable because someone else bought one just like it?
Because someone is not from a dojo, orginization or country that you don't
recognize does not make their rank invalid and more than it makes your
rank invalid.
When I was an Nikkyu, an exchange student from Japan came in with a black
belt. I beat him. Some of the more junior students beat him. The next
class he showed up wearing a white belt. He said he didn't feel like he
deserved his Shodan. Sensei refused to allow him on the mat until he put
his black belt back on. Sensei said that "Your Sensei in Japan thinks you
are a Shodan, so I think your a Shodan." and we (the students agreed.) He
turned out to be a really great guy, that I learned alot from (I'd like to
think he learned some things from me too.)
If we dismissed him as not being qualifed we would have lost a valuable
source of information, and left him with the impression we were a bunch of
Jerks.
- John
GORDON ALLEN R
>I still hold the authority for requirements for promotion should be the
>Kodokan... whether or not I believe the Kodokan has all the right people
>there is another story.
Even with a traditional art like Hakkoryu, as I understand it from Ralph Verde,
up to a certain level, promotions are presented by the instructor. Beyond that,
the person must go to the home 'office', ie the hombo, to be tested--a process
that takes some time and $$. All instructors are certified in this way who
then pass on the teachings of the school. Thus the authority is vested in the
home school, but is also distributed amongst the certified teachers.
Now the question is with the number of judoka in the world, is this a workable
method? How many could really afford a trip of 2 or 3 weeks and a cost of
several thousand $$. Could the kodokan really handle it? Would the individual
federations submit? Case in point is that the curriculum of judo included kata,
yet I know high ranking BB who haven't done kata in years. In many respects
Judo has grown to the point where it has taken on a life of its own. The
kodokan could die and judo would continue. There is still a base that judoka
from anywhere in the world can relate to. This is independent of the kodokan.
Another case is that, according to a post from Dave Long, the IJF has declared
that judo is a sport. Does this mean that it is? The kodokan doesn't think so.
Boy, I really have rambled here and and probably so many threads here that it
makes not sense whatsoever. I think that the bottom line is that judo is big
enough that a person can pursue one or several avenues of interest and still be
considered a judoka. That may be why it has such broad appeal worldwide.
GORDON ALLEN R
>As I look at the bodies of technique in Judo, it seems to me that a Judo
>technique is much more than a "move" or a means of taking uke to the mat.
>A Judo technique is an illustration of physics and philosophy. Is Uki
>Goshi closer to Harai Goshi or O Goshi? Uki Goshi is the middle ground
>between the two. The dictonary explains Judo so well. "Using an opponents
>size and momentum against him" not "A Martial Art consisting of throws ,
>holds and striking techniques."
Actually if you look the evolution, harai goshi came out of uki goshi, Kano
shihan's favorite throw. People started jumping around the uki goshi, so Kano
researched and came up with harai goshi as the stop. In my opinion, putting
the throws in a heirarchy like you've described is like putting an orange
somewhere between an apple and a banana. The dynamics of O goshi are completely
different from Uki goshi, except to an untrained eye. The dynamics of Harai
come from Uki goshi. I suppose that folks have modified throws like harai
so that it may be more like o goshi or even yama arashi, in order to make
it work. But I think the base comes from uki goshi. Last saturday, I was asked
to teach harai. We started with uki goshi, but just stepping in with one foot,
not turning and learning the hip action so crucial to uki goshi. After all of
this, harai was easy.
As to the question of the role of the kodokan -- you brought up my tree
analogy. I think it is interesting that Draeger in "Judo-Formal Techniques",
described kata as the roots of the tree of judo, not the kodokan.
>When I was an Nikkyu, an exchange student from Japan came in with a black
>belt. I beat him. Some of the more junior students beat him. The next
>class he showed up wearing a white belt. He said he didn't feel like he
>deserved his Shodan. Sensei refused to allow him on the mat until he put
>his black belt back on. Sensei said that "Your Sensei in Japan thinks you
>are a Shodan, so I think your a Shodan." and we (the students agreed.) He
>turned out to be a really great guy, that I learned alot from (I'd like to
>think he learned some things from me too.)
We had a nidan from japan who refused to be called Sensei. We have some
quality teachers in this country, who because of their rank, would not be
teachers in japan. This is a problem.
Daniel R. Israel
>We had a nidan from japan who refused to be called Sensei. We have some
>quality teachers in this country, who because of their rank, would not be
>teachers in japan. This is a problem.
I hate to be called sensei as well. I was told that I would get used to it, so
quit telling people not to address me as such, I'm being rude... Then again, when
people say Mr. Israel, I still turn around trying to find my dad...
-Izz
Jim Shupe
|> discussions like this. This makes the promotion feel that much better!
I think this is the base of the whole argument here... there should be
a national (at least) if not a world standard for promotion in the art.
Such a standard should be set by who...? A consensus of all the opinions
over Godan?
|> There's nothing wrong with that. Contribution to judo (at dojo, local, regional,
|> national levels) is a major point of promotion, esp. at the very high ranks, ergo,
|> there is NOTHING wrong with what your instructor did.
|>
|> Congratulations on the good showing with your juniors! Keep up the good work!
Thanks, being not quite as strong of a competitor as some I'm glad he
takes our other contributions into account. We don't have a real big
club (about 30 active members Sr/Jr) but I think more of them could
contribute to the club than they do... no one get's paid to teach, in
fact we barely make our rent/electric/plowing costs each month.
Jim Shupe
Our club has a 2 hour kata practice every week. So we try to follow the
traditional ways too.
re: Izz on authority...
We'll all just have to stage a coup and take over our respective orgs and
then conglomerate them!
Jim Shupe
I don't necessarily agree with all your conclusions/assertions but at the
heart of our points I think we'd find common ground.
Jim Shupe
I teach my kids to call the instructor of the class sensei (which is a
term of respect as well as meaning teacher) I still feel uncomfortable
but if I expect it from them in regard to me then they'll call anyone
my rank or above sensei... which might not be appropriate, but in my
eyes anyone above Sankyu can be sensei to a 7 year old.
Anyhow, back to why I followed up... I have one advantage on being called
sensei and feeling comfortable. In Am. Indian cultures (generally speaking
here) certain titles can't be claimed, only given by the community. When
they're given you don't really have a hell of a lot of choice about
accepting what they call you... Thus, I've some experience with "titles"
I don't think I deserve.
Jim Shupe
|> judo knowledge, which is exactly the situation that we have now. This then
|> tends to de-emphasise other aspects of judo, like kata. Rank has to include
|> more that what we might call 'skill'. A great coach, for example, may have
|> little skill executing a technique, but may be able to teach it and get others
|> to execute it. How does rank fit in here?
Perhaps my statement was a bit simplistic... at the ranks that John F.
brought up a portion of skill can be equated to success in tournament.
What's amazing (to me) about your statement is that you guys bash/jibe
the JA for having ssooooooo many ways to gain points but then when I
say that competition should perhaps count more you counter... I know
ppl are complex but this seems fairly simple. Maybe what you consider
ideal is somewhere between the JA and the JI.
|> Actually, at least according to the 'JI, batsugun waives the time in grade,
|> allowing you to test sooner for the rank---but you still have to test. Now this
Yep, that's what I said I did.
|> may be more of a formality in practice, especially if the batsugun is awarded by
|> higher ranking BB. Who on the board would "dare" override the recommendation?
|> I suppose that this has been done, especially when feuds between different fac-
|> tions exist. Then the judoka becomes a pawn. Not too long ago, one of our
All this is true, but a mature BB will know that only the sensei knows
if the individual's attitude and maturity will match the rank to be
awarded. Black Belt to higher black belt batsugun... well, I don't know
about those... yet... 8)
Jim Shupe
|>
|> We're talking about ranks and certifications, aren't we?
|> Not judo, not really, just paperwork and promotions.
|> The only consistency is that there is no consistency.
Not really. If a promotion requires acceptable execution of a technique
or requires the execution of a Kata then we are talking about Judo AND
about paperwork. The fact that there is no consistency is exactly the
problem.
|> A comprehensive art if taught that way. But we do the
|> judo we're taught and teach the judo we learned.
For competition... for Kata you *must* do it the way it was intended...
or at least that's what we're taught.
GORDON ALLEN R
>For competition... for Kata you *must* do it the way it was intended...
>or at least that's what we're taught.
Aye, there's the rub! The standards here differ from those elsewhere.
Daniel R. Israel
says...
be
>|> discussions like this. This makes the promotion feel that much better!
>
>I think this is the base of the whole argument here... there should be
>a national (at least) if not a world standard for promotion in the art.
>Such a standard should be set by who...? A consensus of all the opinions
>over Godan?
They'd never agree on anything. That's one of the reasons the JA folks broke off
to begin with... I think we should all try to get along and be better people, and
the athletics and rank will follow suit...
>|> There's nothing wrong with that. Contribution to judo (at dojo, local,
regional,
>|> national levels) is a major point of promotion, esp. at the very high ranks,
ergo,
>|> there is NOTHING wrong with what your instructor did.
>|>
>|> Congratulations on the good showing with your juniors! Keep up the good work!
>
>
>Thanks, being not quite as strong of a competitor as some I'm glad he
>takes our other contributions into account. We don't have a real big
>club (about 30 active members Sr/Jr) but I think more of them could
>contribute to the club than they do... no one get's paid to teach, in
>fact we barely make our rent/electric/plowing costs each month.
This is pretty normal all around. The club I'm at has about 80 members and
produces national/international champions, and in 4 years, we haven't made rent
from tuition one month. Nobody gets paid, everybody contributes... If it weren't
for our fundraisers, we'd go under. I think that this helps us bond together
better... Maybe judo is SUPPOSED to be like this?
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>
>Re : Izz on Kata:
>Our club has a 2 hour kata practice every week. So we try to follow the
>traditional ways too.
Good. Like to see others are doing this too!
>re: Izz on authority...
>
>We'll all just have to stage a coup and take over our respective orgs and
>then conglomerate them!
Got it! JA's yours, I got JF, anyone else for JI?
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>|>
>|> >We had a nidan from japan who refused to be called Sensei. We have some
>|> >quality teachers in this country, who because of their rank, would not be
>|> >teachers in japan. This is a problem.
>|>
>|> I hate to be called sensei as well. I was told that I would get used to it, so
>|> quit telling people not to address me as such, I'm being rude... Then again,
when
>|> people say Mr. Israel, I still turn around trying to find my dad...
>
>I teach my kids to call the instructor of the class sensei (which is a
>term of respect as well as meaning teacher) I still feel uncomfortable
>but if I expect it from them in regard to me then they'll call anyone
>my rank or above sensei... which might not be appropriate, but in my
>eyes anyone above Sankyu can be sensei to a 7 year old.
I agree, but I still feel funny with people calling ME sensei, like people calling
me sir or Mr. Israel, or Dr. Israel, or some such... At practice, I let them call
me sensei, outside of practice, I ask them to call me Dan. In one case, we have a
guy older than me, whose kids were in my class for a couple years before he joined.
Now, all of a sudden, he's calling me sensei! I got no problem with that, but when
we go hang out together, he still does it! I ask him not to, but he was
born/raised in Japan, and tells me it wouldn't be right... This same guy gets
angry when I call him Mr., although that's the proper protocol being his children
are in my class... sigh...
>Anyhow, back to why I followed up... I have one advantage on being called
>sensei and feeling comfortable. In Am. Indian cultures (generally speaking
>here) certain titles can't be claimed, only given by the community. When
>they're given you don't really have a hell of a lot of choice about
>accepting what they call you... Thus, I've some experience with "titles"
>I don't think I deserve.
I know what you mean. I've got loads of titles and ranks I was told to take, but
didn't think I deserved. What to do?
-Izz
Daniel R. Israel
says...
>|> may be more of a formality in practice, especially if the batsugun is awarded
by
>|> higher ranking BB. Who on the board would "dare" override the recommendation?
>|> I suppose that this has been done, especially when feuds between different fac-
>|> tions exist. Then the judoka becomes a pawn. Not too long ago, one of our
>
>All this is true, but a mature BB will know that only the sensei knows
>if the individual's attitude and maturity will match the rank to be
>awarded. Black Belt to higher black belt batsugun... well, I don't know
>about those... yet... 8)
Quite a few years back, when I was a member of Hokka Yudanshakai, they had 4
promotional tournaments a year, where you had the opportunity to gain points for
promotion and batsugan promotions. I actually have been promoted several times by
batsugan, and Mr. Kimura (who is 8th dan, one of the highest ranking BB in the US,
who helped start the JBBF (later the USJF)) ALWAYS asked my instructor (who at the
time was 4th [pre-1988] or 5th [post-1988]) if it was OK before announcing it. I
knew Mr. Kimura since I was a kid, and I know he knew about my
maturity/practice/etc., but he followed the protocol because it was the right thing
to do...
-Izz
Jaakko Hannula
>
> Authority for requirements, do you mean things like time in
> rank and proficiency level? We submitted applications
> to register our past and current ranks with KDK. There were
> questions regarding shiai, kata, waza, service, teaching,
> practice time, etc. If our applications make it past the
> Yudanshakai and USJF, they'll be sent to KDK. Seems to me
> KDK already has some authority when it can decide whether
> or not to recognize U.S. ranks. It already has some authority
> to decide whether or not we've met KDK rank requirements.
>
> karen
>
This is the system applied also in some smaller organisations in Europe.
The national Yudanshakai acts as the grading committe for the Judo
federation. All mudansha grades are awarded by licenced graders according
to accepted regulations. The KDK has authorized e.g. the Finnish Yudanshakai
to award shodan and nidan grades according to the KDK international division
grading requirements and these will automatically registered in KDK and the
people get their dipolomas by return mail. In case of sandan to godan
the local Yudanshakai can accept the test but applies for the recognition
from KDK. In case of rokudans the procedure seems to be difficult.
For some reason active men with an international level competition background
and a 40 years' career seem to considerd as premature by the KDK grading
commission ("We need a longer preparation time.." for somebody way over 50!")
There are a few points I would like to add to this conversation. Firstly, when
we think about grades in a Japanese context they mean something else than
in a e.g. anglo-american context. Being member of a dojo or the
avareness of one's hierarcial position in a group or in the society
is not so important for e.g. the Europeans. Grades mean much more social
power in Europe. And because grades are tools for power I myself
consider it a good system that there is a two lewel structure in
the process of awarding the grades.- Then secondly, on the other hand
I still consider it questionable that the KDK applies different grading
requirements for candidates of the International Division (all non-Japanese) and
(Jap. shodan= Eur. 1st kyu ...). By the way, the median career for the shodan
candidates in Finland is 8 years! The lowest age limit in Japan is 12 yrs!
There was also discussion about the relative importance of the KDK in
the Japanese Judo. If someone is interested, in some early issue of
the Rewiev of Sociology of Sport of this year is an article on the
diminishing dependency between the Jap. judo organisations and the KDK.
The case was naturally the "new student judo assn." in the 80's.
Jaakko Hannula
Karen Nagai
Jim Shupe <jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>
snipped
>I still hold the authority for requirements for promotion should be the
>Kodokan... whether or not I believe the Kodokan has all the right people
>there is another story.
Authority for requirements, do you mean things like time in
rank and proficiency level? We submitted applications
to register our past and current ranks with KDK. There were
questions regarding shiai, kata, waza, service, teaching,
practice time, etc. If our applications make it past the
Yudanshakai and USJF, they'll be sent to KDK. Seems to me
KDK already has some authority when it can decide whether
or not to recognize U.S. ranks. It already has some authority
to decide whether or not we've met KDK rank requirements.
karen
Brad Webb
|> sh...@crazyhorse.rchland.ibm.com (Jim Shupe) writes:
|> |> nag...@u.washington.edu (Karen Nagai) writes:
|> |> |> >
|> |> |> >> Remember, the Kodokan is the authority on Judo, not some local sensei.
|> |> |> >
|> |> |> Actually, no. That's why my Japanese friends wonder why
|> |> |> we bother. To many of them, the Kodokan is just another dojo.
|> |> |>
|> |>
|> |> So to them there is *no* authority on Judo except Kano? Who has Kano's
|> |> original texts? W/O them *anything* could be considered Judo, even
|> |> GJJ... I mean it is pretty much the same as traditional Judo.
|> |>
|> |> If Izz and your friends are right then Judo shouldn't be considered a
|> |> comprehensive art and we should all be following Gustufson Judo, Rafferty
|> |> Judo, etc.
|>
|> I take that back, maybe we should just go back to calling it Kano JuJutsu
|> and forget the argument about authority...
|>
|> This whole thread reflects EXACTLY what John Fogh was talking about (in
|> part)... everyone has their own definition of what is right and good and
|> (it appears) are not looking to find compromises only to push their views
|> down everyone elses' throat.
|>
|> authority on the Art... how the Hell can we agree on anything else.
|>
Jim, calm down. It has to do with how the japanese view things. While
you are in someone's house they make the rules. If they come to your
house, you make the rules. Unless you have a particular loyalty to your
chieftain(daiymo/sensei/etc) you give deference out of politeness, and
they give deference out of politeness.
I teach things a little different than my instructor because it is better
for me to do a technique a certain way, maybe I'm heavier than (s)he is,
or they are faster than I. When I teach my students I bear that in mind
as they are learning.
In my dojo I don't compromise, I do things MY WAY. When I have guest
instructors the only thing I ask is that they don't injure my students,
other than that I want them to teach THEIR WAY, so I and my students
can learn from it. When I go to other people's dojo's I expect to
learn THEIR WAY, even if it means I get hurt or they want me to hurt
someone else :( (which I try not to do).
It's a point of view, not a lack of respect.
as always, IMHO.
Brad Webb.
--
B. Webb, Dallas, Tx.|B. Webb, Specialist. |NT doesn't claim my opinions,
Japan Shotokan |Northern Telecom,Inc.|I don't claim their opinions,
(214) 231-4922 |(214) 684-1737. |and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Std disclaimer: Blah Blah Blah!
Seek perfection of character.
John F. Fogh
jt_wayag...@vnet.ibm.com wrote:
>
> I don't necessarily agree with all your conclusions/assertions but at the
> heart of our points I think we'd find common ground.
We all have a common ground. It's Judo.
This is it. We realize that we don't all learn, teach, or get promoted the
same way. The fact is that if we were to meet in a Dojo, we would learn
from each other, have a good time, and all get along. The petty politics
of orginizational promotions just makes this all the more complicated.
Somewhere the folks back at Judo Inc. forgot that were all in the same
art. I want to see the first International Judo Picnic. Where everyone
gets together, does some good Judo and respects each others skills and
knowledge with out the big trophies and petty squables.
After all of this discussion I have reconsidered my opinions (somewhat):
The orgnizations ( as they exist as governing bodies in the Judo community
) steal credibility from the Sensei, by laying down guidlines for
promotion and that any promotions outside of these guidelines is
"suspicious." This attitude is totally uncalled for.
I dislike the price tag associated with promotions. I realize that these
fees go to sponsoring tournements and paying administrative fees. I don't
know what a membership is going for these days but dues + promotion costs
+ tournement fees seems excessive. It strikes me as the orginizations are
selling the art that they don't own. ( Yeah, break out the zippos... I'm
ready.)
I do like the fact that orginizations are setting up clinics and seminars.
This dissemination of new information is one the best things that could
happen to Judo.
Additionally, I don't want anyone to the impression that I am pointing
fingers. I have no doubt that there are good Judoka in all of the
orginizations. I think that the idea of preserving Judo techniques and
traditions is a noble goal. I think that setting standards is important
for the art. I question only the implementation.
- John
Daniel R. Israel
says...
Well John, this reminds me of the old adage: Let's organize this thing and take all
the fun out of it!
Personally, I'm all for training with no ranks, and going to tournaments for fun,
without the trophies/medals, etc. but that'll never happen because some people are
REALLY concerned with having a fancy title even though they aren't worth a shit...
--
-Izz
http://www.crl.com/~disrael
Daniel R. Israel
jf...@halcyon.com says...
>
>In article <3pqfqj$f...@nntp.crl.com>, dis...@crl.com (Daniel
>
>> Well John, this reminds me of the old adage: Let's organize
this thing
>and take all
>> the fun out of it!
>>
>> Personally, I'm all for training with no ranks, and going to
tournaments
>for fun,
>> without the trophies/medals, etc. but that'll never happen
because some
>people are
>> REALLY concerned with having a fancy title even though they
aren't worth
>a shit...
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Izz
>
>
send you a
>trophy and a couple of extra dan grades for summarizing so
nicely.
>
> - John
Can you give me the title of grandmaster as well? :)
--
-Izz
http://www.crl.com/~disrael
John F. Fogh
William Myers
I don't mean to disagree with the spirit of your idea, but
without rank, how will anyone find a qualified instructor. At
least now, you have an idea of where to start looking. There's
a better answer somewhere.
Bill
--
Daniel R. Israel
I guess we have to go back and look and the original reason for ranks, right?
We're not stating that we're completely against rank, but with EVERYBODY giving
rank with everybody having different criteria, exceptions, etc, who's to know what
that rank relaly means?
--
-Izz
http://www.crl.com/~disrael
GORDON ALLEN R
>I guess we have to go back and look and the original reason for ranks, right?
>We're not stating that we're completely against rank, but with EVERYBODY giving
>rank with everybody having different criteria, exceptions, etc, who's to know what
>that rank relaly means?
Actually, what Izz is trying to find out is: who is the rankest of us all?
Daniel R. Israel
>
>
>>I guess we have to go back and look and the original reason
for ranks, right?
>>We're not stating that we're completely against rank, but with
EVERYBODY giving
>
>>rank with everybody having different criteria, exceptions,
etc, who's to know w
>hat
>>that rank relaly means?
>
>
>Actually, what Izz is trying to find out is: who is the
rankest of us all?
OK, You win! :)
--
-Izz
http://www.crl.com/~disrael