Swords: Gim vs. Jian for Tai Chi?
nigel_...@my-deja.com
I'm trying to find a decent quality, properly weighted Tai Chi practice
sword.
Without getting into antiques, there are only two commercially
available models I could consider. One is the ever present Jian from
Chen Chao-Po, and the other is a much more modestly priced, but
probably better built Gim from Kriscutlery.
Would some one who knows the difference in a Jian and Gim please
enlighten me, and tell me wether both would be appropriate for Tai Chi
practice? Also, what would the weight of an authentically made sword
like these be?
Regards,
Nigel
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mike Sigman
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8abmbi$co$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Without getting into antiques, there are only two commercially
> available models I could consider. One is the ever present Jian from
> Chen Chao-Po, and the other is a much more modestly priced, but
> probably better built Gim from Kriscutlery.
???
I don't know either one of them.
>
> Would some one who knows the difference in a Jian and Gim please
> enlighten me, and tell me wether both would be appropriate for Tai Chi
> practice?
One is Mandarin and one is Cantonese for sword.
Also, what would the weight of an authentically made sword
> like these be?
Any properly-weighted Chinese single-sword will do fine. Lung Chuan, Green
Dragon, etc., etc.
Mike
Erik Harris
>Would some one who knows the difference in a Jian and Gim please
>enlighten me, and tell me wether both would be appropriate for Tai Chi
If I'm not mistaken, the difference is simply that Jian is a Mandarin
representation and Gim is a Cantonese representation. I believe they are both
the same word, though (that is, the same written character and the same
meaning).
Erik Harris esh7@c_rnell.edu
http://w3.to/erik ICQ: 2610172
Chinese Martial Arts Assoc @ Cornell: http://w3.to/CMAAC/
To avoid Spam-bots, my address at the top is INCORRECT.
Change the underscore to an "o".
nigel_...@my-deja.com
Cutlery at
http://www.invis.com/kriscutlery/gim.html
after reading a review at http://swordforum.html
I considered the Chen Pao-Chi (Paul Chen) made swords, but decided
against for the following reasons:
1) Unknown steel quality
2) Don't like the guard (or lack thereof) design
3) Inconclusive review at Swordforum of the Practical Katana
(Specifically, a grip which broke after repeated use)
4) Kris uses a full tang design, firmly attaching the pomel to it.
Frankly, I shouldn't buy a sword before trying it. I'm a big guy, and
the average sword may be too short, or too light, but I figure I can
always sell it this summer at Santa Cruz if it's not for me. :)
----- Rant follows -------
I'm sorry, but even though I'm never (hopefully) going to actually do
combat with this sword, finding a sword that is worth keeping seems to
be a very difficult thing these days.
Once you wade through all the Katana's (most not worth their scabbards)
being sold, then you have to wade through a thousand cheaply made,
barely held together Kung Fu or Tai Chi swords until you get to the
point where you actually find something useful.
This shouldn't be that hard!! Most of the swords I've tested I'm afraid
will poke an eye out, not because I'll hit some one with it, but
because some part of the pomel, or guard, or maybe even the blade
itself will come loose and go flying out of my hand even as I'm still
clutching the grip. The heavy swords I've seen are no better made, so
I think are more dangerous, as their momentum is more likely to hurt
some one.
--- End Rant ---
So, tell me wise ones, did I loose my way in the search engines, did I
not know the right sites to go to, or the right brands to find?
Thanks,
Nigel
In article <8abmbi$co$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
nigel_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Dear fellow Students:
>
> I'm trying to find a decent quality, properly weighted Tai Chi
practice
> sword.
>
> Without getting into antiques, there are only two commercially
> available models I could consider. One is the ever present Jian from
> Chen Chao-Po, and the other is a much more modestly priced, but
> probably better built Gim from Kriscutlery.
>
> Would some one who knows the difference in a Jian and Gim please
> enlighten me, and tell me wether both would be appropriate for Tai Chi
> practice? Also, what would the weight of an authentically made sword
> like these be?
>
Mike Sigman
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8acjc8$l6c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> For those that may follow my thread, I bought a Gim/Jian from Kris
> Cutlery at
>
> http://www.invis.com/kriscutlery/gim.html
>
> after reading a review at http://swordforum.html
>
> I considered the Chen Pao-Chi (Paul Chen) made swords, but decided
> against for the following reasons:
[[snip monologue]]
> So, tell me wise ones, did I loose my way in the search engines, did I
> not know the right sites to go to, or the right brands to find?
>
The superficial appearance seems to be what you bought. A truly good sword
is just the right thickness and temper so the the tip end is flexible yet
has enough support to sustain a fajin through wood (unless you're doing a
style that focuses on weaving and slicing like White Ape sword). The top
third is thin and sharp as a razor... the thinness keeps the end movement
extremely fast. The middle third is sharp for cutting, yet has some
flexibility. The lower third is thick enough to support the rest and block.
I see western imitations of Chinese swords and darn dao that totally miss
the weight/flexibility functions along the blade. They are considered
parodies more than "improved versions". :^) No offense.
Mike Sigman
nigel_...@my-deja.com
No offense is taken.
Will you be at any of the CXW Seminars this year? I'll show it to you,
and you can get a first hand impression.
Goerge Xu and others have made the same observations that you did about
how a sword blade should be, and I have no argument with that, however,
as I was saying, I've yet to find a commonly available sword that is.
I do not consider swords so thin that every move shakes the blade a
good compromise, so with this in mind I'd rather have an americanized
Jian/Gim with proper balance, and sturdy construction, no frills. If
nothing else, when I find the antique Jian that sings to me, I can use
the american one for practice and not cry each time I scratch the
polish. Yeah yeah, I know, not very Daoist of me, but I'm only into
Tai Chi for the cache'. :0)
Perhaps it's my local sources? I think I should make a trip into
Boston's china town and see.
Oh, and thank you for being so kind and calling my rant a monologue.
Regards,
Nigel
In article <xIky4.27745$t7.16...@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com>,
Erik Harris
>So, tell me wise ones, did I loose my way in the search engines, did I
>not know the right sites to go to, or the right brands to find?
I don't think so. As you said, finding a good sword is difficult. I never
did find a good training broadsword/dao that I was happy with, and the only
possibilities I've found are expensive weapons that I wouldn't be able to try
before buying. Not a good idea on a college student's income (or lack
thereof). Maybe next year. :) It's almost impossible to find a well made
weapon that has good weight and good balance. Most of them are either way too
light (I'm a martial artist, not a modern wushu dancer, and as such, I don't
want tinfoil toy swords), or terribly balanced (I made the error of buying one
of the Lung Chuan combat steel broadswords that Tiger Claw sells, and feels
like it's probably well balanced for a battle axe, but not a
Chinese broadsword). Right now I'm using one of Wing Lam's chromed steel
swords. With a little bit of alteration, it's decently balanced, but it's
chromed steel, which means absolutely no contact with another weapon. :(
stephen chan
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8adubv$gon$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Will you be at any of the CXW Seminars this year? I'll show it to you,
> and you can get a first hand impression.
>
Maybe he'll be hosting one?
> I do not consider swords so thin that every move shakes the blade a
> good compromise, so with this in mind I'd rather have an americanized
> Jian/Gim with proper balance, and sturdy construction, no frills.
I'm not sure you'd be better off.
Some Chinese weapons have flexible qualities that are necessary to
properly understand their usage (as Mike alluded to). I know a guy who
paid over a thousand dollars for a "Taiji sword" that is so heavy and
stiff that he would never be able to know if he brought the jin to the
tip correctly (unless he develops an enormous amount of power, which
is inappropriate for a jian anyway). Apparently you can chop through
a 55 gallon drum with it, but that isn't necessarily appropriate for jian
usage.
You can probably get one of those dragon well (long chuan) swords
for around $100 that will do the trick. Brendan Lai up in SF sells
quite a few of them.
After saying all that, I'll admit that I don't know much about jian,
but I've seen how they are used by people who presumably do.
And if you understand why white waxwood is used for Taiji spear
training, then it gives a hint at why you don't want a stiff sword.
> If
> nothing else, when I find the antique Jian that sings to me, I can use
> the american one for practice and not cry each time I scratch the
> polish. Yeah yeah, I know, not very Daoist of me, but I'm only into
> Tai Chi for the cache'. :0)
>
> Perhaps it's my local sources? I think I should make a trip into
> Boston's china town and see.
I'm not sure where you are located, but if you want "custom" stuff,
maybe you can check out Wing Lam over in Sunnyvale, CA. Apparently
he has a hobby of making weapons. I can't speak to how classically
correct they are, but they look like he puts some effort into them.
>
> Oh, and thank you for being so kind and calling my rant a monologue.
Stephen
nigel_...@my-deja.com
It is true that the Chinese swords of old had very high rockwell
hardnesses, combined with very flexible blades.
Unfortunately, I beleive that focusing on this quality alone is
incorrect for a sword today, unless we can also measure the harness of
the rest of the blade, and compare it's weight and balance to
antiques. You can put any cheap Tai Chi sword, and i'm including the
so called Lung Chuan brand, in the hands of some one who'se never seen
one, or Tai Chi, and they can make the tip vibrate, not to mention the
rest of the sword, so to me this tip flexing thing proves nothing in
the absense of other qualities.
I'd rather have a stiff, well balanced, will never come apart sword
thank you very much.
Also, the flexibility created in the original Jain's was NOT to prove
Fa-Jing, it was to slip underneath armor plates used at the time.
Best Regards,
Nigel
Richard A Shandross
+
+Perhaps it's my local sources? I think I should make a trip into
+Boston's china town and see.
+
If you don't know about it, Silky Way is at least where I think most folks
would go for MA equipment. I have no idea how they are with swords (I've
only gone there or books and videos), and would be interested in finding
out what you learn.
Plus, if you know of other places in Chinatown, I'd be interested too.
Thanks,
Rich Shandross
--
Rich Shandross
r...@mit.edu
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/ras/home.html
Chas
> It is true that the Chinese swords of old had very high rockwell
> hardnesses, combined with very flexible blades.
How do you know?
> Also, the flexibility created in the original Jain's was NOT to prove
> Fa-Jing, it was to slip underneath armor plates used at the time.
Where did you hear that?
Chas
Mike Sigman
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8aekjt$vln$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>You can put any cheap Tai Chi sword, and i'm including the
> so called Lung Chuan brand, in the hands of some one who'se never seen
> one, or Tai Chi, and they can make the tip vibrate, not to mention the
> rest of the sword, so to me this tip flexing thing proves nothing in
> the absense of other qualities.
>
> I'd rather have a stiff, well balanced, will never come apart sword
> thank you very much.
>
> Fa-Jing, it was to slip underneath armor plates used at the time.
Regardless of "flexibility" (and there are different kinds, some with useful
purpose and some only for show)... there are different ways to shake or
vibrate the tip. It's easy to tell who has real jin skills and who is
simply shaking a sword.
Mike
nigel_...@my-deja.com
Thank you for your straight forward questions. They're rare in this
forum. I'm happy to answer you.
In article <38CB0340...@home.com>,
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> nigel_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > It is true that the Chinese swords of old had very high rockwell
> > hardnesses, combined with very flexible blades.
>
> How do you know?
I read it on http://swordforum.com, sorry I don't remember the exat
page, but it was a page dealing with the process of tempering or some
related sword making technical item. It might have been in a
discussion on why steel is the best material for swords too though.
If you really can't find the page, let me know and I'll go digging for
it.
>
> > Also, the flexibility created in the original Jain's was NOT to
prove
> > Fa-Jing, it was to slip underneath armor plates used at the time.
>
> Where did you hear that?
Read it in an interview with Chris Pei in the December 1999 issue of
Tai Chi magazine, page 16. Also, David Dolbear has an article in this
issue discussing antique chineese swords beginning on page 42
(Subscriptions (800) 888-9119, www.tai-chi.com)
The idea that a sword maker decided to make a sword to test for fa-jing
seems rather far fetched to me. More likely, he/they developed the
blade tempering techniques used in the highest quality jians to give
the purchaser an edge (pun intended) against an oponent.
Of course, a flexible blade is more durable, so there is more than 1
benefit to striking a good balance between harness and flexibility.