Regarding Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' - Questions
Hunter Kid
I've been reading the thread in which some people are claiming that
Grandmaster Sin The' is a fraud, and others are ardently defending
him.
Now, to be honest with you, I wouldn't care about this one way or the
other if I wasn't already into the Shaolin-Do system. I am currently
a green belt, about to test to brown, and planning to sign up for
another year of training. (I train in Atlanta, not under Sin The'
himself, but under Sifu Michael Reid, who in turn trains under Master
Gary Grooms. I assume those names, if anyone is familiar with them,
are reputable?) For the record, I have a first degree black belt in
Choi Kwang Do (which I quit some time ago), and scattered training in
Taiji Chuan (from the Shaolin-Do school), Hapkido, Ninjutsu, Kendo,
Tai Kwon Do, etc.
Okay, now let me be clear about this - the system seems very good.
And effective. The instructors at the two Atlanta schools (Marietta
and Norcross) are both very skilled fighters and martial artists. But
if the Grandmaster is a liar/fraud/disreputable fiend or whatever who
everyone outside the Shaolin-Do system hates, that's definitely a
problem.
So here's what I want to know:
1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
best?
3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
What I do *not* want in response is rantings from James Hall or
whatever his name is (the disgraced student of Sin The's) spewing vile
slander about the Grandmaster. I would like some neutral opinions
from people in or not in the Shaolin-Do system, as long as they are
familiar with it and/or Sin The' himself.
A warm thanks in advance. ^_^
Hunter Kid
http://www.serve.com/guilds/ranma/
gui...@mail.serve.com
>open hk.sig
"Why do I get the feeling," he rumbled to himself in a voice
that, if people who knew him had been asked, didn't sound
entirely like his own, "that this book is a crock?" Of course,
most 'books of magic' that one could buy on the common market
generally -were- crocks, so he wasn't entirely out of line in
assuming that this one was the same.
-from Brother, chapter 4
[hk.sig; errors-0; file terminating]
Yt Zombie
>1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
>2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
>he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
>best?
>3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
>
>
I train with sifu Robert Petry who trains under Master Jim Moonie, who trains
under Grand Master The'. I personnally do not think he is a fraud. I have
seen him kick seven times in 1, yes ONE, second (from the knee up to the head).
I cannot say if he is one of the best, who knows? The Shoalin-Do system is
what one makes of it. I think it is one of the better ones. But who am I?
E.T. Quigley
Who Dares, Wins
Hunter Kid
ytzo...@aol.com (Yt Zombie) wrote:
>I train with sifu Robert Petry who trains under Master Jim Moonie, who trains
Hm, haven't heard of them. You're in Kentucky, then?
>under Grand Master The'. I personnally do not think he is a fraud. I have
>seen him kick seven times in 1, yes ONE, second (from the knee up to the head).
Seven times in one second? I wasn't aware that that was even
physically possible.
> I cannot say if he is one of the best, who knows? The Shoalin-Do system is
>what one makes of it. I think it is one of the better ones. But who am I?
I have no idea. ^_^ How far in the system did you say you were?
Baba Yaga
Yt Zombie (ytzo...@aol.com) wrote:
: seen him kick seven times in 1, yes ONE, second (from the knee up to
: the head).
Did he take lessons from the Speed Man (tm)? Or is he the Speed Man?
: But who am I?
Ooo aaa. You shouldnt leave yourself open like that. There are nasty,
mean sarcastic comedians lurking on this group.
--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines
jdh...@tgtel.com
Hunter, did you read my posts? You should already know that neither I nor my
teacher were kicked out. You said you study under Gary Grooms? I have
spoken with him 3 times now, and even he agrees with me that we were not
KICKED out, we LEFT because of Sin's lies. If there is anyone you want to
talk to it would be me, because I'm one of the few people who has a copy of
the translations of Sin's last rankcertificate, and 2 letters from Maste Ie,
proving all I've said. You seem to have such a negative view of me, when
I've not attacked you in any way, why is that?
James
In article <358db8fb...@news.mindspring.com>,
gui...@mail.serve.com wrote:
>
> I've been reading the thread in which some people are claiming that
> Grandmaster Sin The' is a fraud, and others are ardently defending
> him.
>
> Now, to be honest with you, I wouldn't care about this one way or the
> other if I wasn't already into the Shaolin-Do system. I am currently
> a green belt, about to test to brown, and planning to sign up for
> another year of training. (I train in Atlanta, not under Sin The'
> himself, but under Sifu Michael Reid, who in turn trains under Master
> Gary Grooms. I assume those names, if anyone is familiar with them,
> are reputable?) For the record, I have a first degree black belt in
> Choi Kwang Do (which I quit some time ago), and scattered training in
> Taiji Chuan (from the Shaolin-Do school), Hapkido, Ninjutsu, Kendo,
> Tai Kwon Do, etc.
>
> Okay, now let me be clear about this - the system seems very good.
> And effective. The instructors at the two Atlanta schools (Marietta
> and Norcross) are both very skilled fighters and martial artists. But
> if the Grandmaster is a liar/fraud/disreputable fiend or whatever who
> everyone outside the Shaolin-Do system hates, that's definitely a
> problem.
>
> So here's what I want to know:
>
> 1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
> 2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
> he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
> best?
> 3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
>
> What I do *not* want in response is rantings from James Hall or
> whatever his name is (the disgraced student of Sin The's) spewing vile
> slander about the Grandmaster. I would like some neutral opinions
> from people in or not in the Shaolin-Do system, as long as they are
> familiar with it and/or Sin The' himself.
>
> A warm thanks in advance. ^_^
>
> Hunter Kid
> http://www.serve.com/guilds/ranma/
> gui...@mail.serve.com
> >open hk.sig
> "Why do I get the feeling," he rumbled to himself in a voice
> that, if people who knew him had been asked, didn't sound
> entirely like his own, "that this book is a crock?" Of course,
> most 'books of magic' that one could buy on the common market
> generally -were- crocks, so he wasn't entirely out of line in
> assuming that this one was the same.
> -from Brother, chapter 4
> [hk.sig; errors-0; file terminating]
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
jdh...@tgtel.com
>
> 1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
Yes and no. He tested to 5th black, and that's it. That's all the material
he got to, the rest he has taught has come from other styles, books, and
videos.
> 2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
> he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
> best?
He deceives people about his rank, not letting them know it is an HONORARY
title and rank, which even his book, Secrets from the temple, states. He is
a skilled martial artist indeed, even his rank certificate states he won
awards for "best kung fu". BUT he exaggerates his abilities and lies about
his grandfather, and the amount of material he has.
> 3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
Yes, it is one of the best. the material is real up to 4th-5th black.
>
> What I do *not* want in response is rantings from James Hall or
> whatever his name is (the disgraced student of Sin The's)
We left, never kicked out. We have a 22 page handwritten letter from Sin
The' asking my teacher NOT to leave, and eye witnesses to prove that him and
Bill Leonard came to the dojo to ask him NOT to leave.
>spewing vile
> slander about the Grandmaster. I would like some neutral opinions
> from people in or not in the Shaolin-Do system, as long as they are
> familiar with it and/or Sin The' himself.
Having spend 10 years in the system and being a 3rd black now, I can tell you
I am MORE then familair with him and the system and you would be wise not to
discount my "slander" so quickly. It seems you've already made up you mind
to discount me and believe sin just by the above statement, so why are you
asking for other's opinions? It's obviously not going to change your mind,
you've made it clear what you already WANT to believe. And if you want to
believe it, Sin's already got ya. Who wants to believe they have been
fooled? I understand why you resist, but examine your feelings for a second
and then take a second look. How can you argue with his rank certificate and
2 handwritten letters from his teacher, Master Ie? A photograph of the
tombstone? Subtle desceptions like the "monument" at Shaolin Temple? We are
not the only ones to have left the system, and I find it amusing that almost
everyone that does have nasty rumors attached to them shortly after. Ever
hear the word "propaganda". People will believe what they WANT most to
believe, and you want to believe in Sin The'. Trust me, I went through it
too.
Supoman
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:09:05 GMT, gui...@mail.serve.com (Hunter Kid)
wrote:
>ytzo...@aol.com (Yt Zombie) wrote:
>
>>I train with sifu Robert Petry who trains under Master Jim Moonie, who trains
>
>Hm, haven't heard of them. You're in Kentucky, then?
>
>>under Grand Master The'. I personnally do not think he is a fraud. I have
>>seen him kick seven times in 1, yes ONE, second (from the knee up to the head).
>
>Seven times in one second? I wasn't aware that that was even
>physically possible.
>
>> I cannot say if he is one of the best, who knows? The Shoalin-Do system is
>>what one makes of it. I think it is one of the better ones. But who am I?
>
>I have no idea. ^_^ How far in the system did you say you were?
>
>
I saw a 3rd degree student with the last name of Mooney do a Drunken
form at the spring tournament in Lexington. It was nothing short of
awsome. It was a long ass form too. Possible 5 min. I wonder if
he is related to Master Mooney?
Supoman
mikel evins
In article <358db8fb...@news.mindspring.com> Hunter Kid,
gui...@mail.serve.com writes:
>I've been reading the thread in which some people are claiming that
>Grandmaster Sin The' is a fraud, and others are ardently defending
>him.
[...]
>So here's what I want to know:
>
>1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
I depends on what you mean. Some of the things that he and his instructors
say are not true. James Hall has been listing one set of things that,
according to him, are not true. I ran across a different set of
disappointing falsehoods that have to do with the T'ai Chi Ch'uan
material that they teach. His schools do produce students who are
in shape, flexible, strong, coordinated, and can fight. All that
being the case, you sort of wonder why they bother to tell stories
that don't hold up when you examine them closely; why not just
be straight with people and let the training stand on its own merits?
Regardless, some of the things they say are pretty clearly false.
>2. If he is, in what way?
My experience was different from James Hall's, though, like him,
I was in the system for around 10 years. Basically, I found out that
(1) the T'ai Chi they teach is incorrect (important basic principles
and training methods are missing) and (2) they are mistaken in their
identification of the forms they teach (they teach the Cheng style
37-posture short form and the 24-posture Simplified Yang and
misidentify them as something else -- whether through ignorance or
intentional deception I don't know).
That was enough for me to leave. They don't know important basics
of one of the styles they teach; they don't even bother to identify
the forms correctly. Who knows how much inaccuracy and incorrect
teaching is in the rest of the material?
>3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
Again, it depends on what you mean. It has the reputation of
producing tough guys who can fight. On the other hand, it's also
one of those systems about which well-known Chinese teachers
diplomatically avoid comment. Not usually a good sign.
Hunter Kid
mikel evins <mi...@apple.com> wrote:
>>3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
>
>Again, it depends on what you mean. It has the reputation of
>producing tough guys who can fight. On the other hand, it's also
>one of those systems about which well-known Chinese teachers
>diplomatically avoid comment. Not usually a good sign.
So who would I go to in the Atlanta area if I was interested in
finding an authentic Taiji Chuan master? Or Orlando? And what are
the names of some good systems in the Atlanta/Orlando areas?
mikel evins
In article <358ebe35...@news.mindspring.com> Hunter Kid,
gui...@mail.serve.com writes:
>mikel evins <mi...@apple.com> wrote:
>
>>>3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
>>
>>Again, it depends on what you mean. It has the reputation of
>>producing tough guys who can fight. On the other hand, it's also
>>one of those systems about which well-known Chinese teachers
>>diplomatically avoid comment. Not usually a good sign.
>
>So who would I go to in the Atlanta area if I was interested in
>finding an authentic Taiji Chuan master? Or Orlando? And what are
>the names of some good systems in the Atlanta/Orlando areas?
If you really want to know what good Taiji looks like, I'd
recommend going to see one of the heads or other recognized
experts of the major Taiji styles when they are in the area.
Chen Zhenglei is in the U.S. now. He'll be teaching at 4317 N.
Pine Island Rd., Sunrise, Florida from 9:30 am to 4:30 pm
July 4th and 5th. He's charging $190 for the two days. You
can contact Yan Gaofei for more information at
Chen Xiaowang will be in the U.S. later this summer as well.
Send mail to me if you want information about that. I can
be reached at
I don't follow the travels of Wu-style and Yang-style experts
as closely, but they travel and teach as well.
I don't personally know whether there are any really good Taiji
people in Atlanta or Orlando, and I don't really know what
other Chinese styles might be well represented there. My
recommendation is that you should start with some people who
are known to be very good, even if you don't get to study with
them very much, because seeing real excellence as much as possible
serves as a form of quality control; if you know what excellence
looks like then it becomes harder for mediocre or bogus people
to fool you..
Lee Scheele
<snip>
Yang Zhen Dou is going to be in the D.C. area in a couple of weeks as
part of A Taste of China. He will be at some other locations this
Summer as well.
>I don't personally know whether there are any really good Taiji
>people in Atlanta or Orlando, and I don't really know what
>other Chinese styles might be well represented there. My
>recommendation is that you should start with some people who
>are known to be very good, even if you don't get to study with
>them very much, because seeing real excellence as much as possible
>serves as a form of quality control; if you know what excellence
>looks like then it becomes harder for mediocre or bogus people
>to fool you..
Good advice. There's a lot of bogus/mediocre t'ai chi around. For a
beginner to start with a mediocre teacher isn't necessarily too
terrible, as long as they don't confuse it with the real thing.
Unfortunately, there aren't enough high level people on the planet to
go around.
Regards,
Lee Scheele
LexWldcat
I thought I would post my two cents worth here, for whatever it matters.
This is mainly directed to those people directly involved in the system of
shaolin-do, so everyone else forgive the length please.
I too studied shaolin-do, under Sin The's most senior student, Bill
Leonard. I was always told I was very lucky to study under him because he was
the best fighter and teacher in the system. I left recently, having tested to
first brown. I dont have much experience in the system, just over two years,
and know very little about martial arts compared to some of the other people
out there. But, I do consider myself an intelligent person, and especially one
that is not quick to make snap judgements. Also for the record, I now study
under Sin The's brother Master Hiang, who runs things quite a bit differently.
With that said, I will now say this: Sin The' is a liar, in my opinion. A
very big one. I think he is a very good fighter, he regularly shows it on Bill
Leonard in demos at tournaments and seminars. But, to those of you studying
shaolin do out there, ask yourself this: How could anyone accomplish the feats
and learn all the knowledge he has. He claims to know almost 1000 forms!! Not
even the most respected teachers in the world ever come close to that. He
claims to know a special "death touch" fighting style and "Liu Fu Tao" (sp?) a
special sixth sense training. He has not taught these last two out in all his
years in the states, even to Bill Leonard, and Sin learned them when he was a
young boy (13 I think is what he has said). Now, if you take this info and
say, wow! He must really be great then, because if no one else can do it and he
has, he must truly be the Grandmaster of Shaolin, then go right ahead.
Hopefully you will open your mind a little bit more and realize you are being
lied to.
You may ask why have so many people stuck with him? I dont know.
Apparently they can deal with being lied to, I can't. Maybe they have
something to gain from it all (rank, money, etc who knows), maybe they like
being associated with what they call "The most comprehensive system in the
world".
Here are some things that I was told while in the system:
1) We were strictly forbidden to study any other style (or for that matter
go to any other martial arts school) period. If we did we would be kicked out
and all the other students, esp black belts would be encouraged not to speak to
you. Not exactly a positive attitude and not one that fosters any goodwill in
the martial arts community (not to mention an exceptionally arrogant attitude).
2) We were again strictly forbidden to attend any seminars given by anyone
outside our system without the express consent of our teacher. A special case
involved George Dillman. If we were to have ever attended a Dillman seminar we
would have been kicked out, no questions asked. This was due to some sort of
lawsuit between Sin The and Dillman. Don't ask me the details on it, I dont
know andI couldn't pry them out of anyone. I dont know very much about
Dillman, Im not entirely crazy about him from what I've heard from other
people, but I have reserved my opinion. Still, this is a very harsh stance to
take, esp without explanation. Maybe someone out there can elaborate on this
for me.
3) When the issue of the shaolin monks came up, mainly after they appeared
on the David Letterman show a while back, we were told that although the monks
were fabulous athletes, all they did was wushu (meaning bit was all flash and
no substance) ,and that if one of the students (I understood this to include a
wide range of people, including low level black belts) of shaolin-do ever got
in a fight or sparring match with any of the monks, we would win every time. I
almost laughed aloud when this was announced. Maybe shaolin-do produces some
good fighters, maybe even world-class athletes, I dont know, but the monks
train a lot! If nothing else, they are great physical specimens, with great
flexibility and speed etc etc. It seems ludicrous to even suggest such a
statement. If I am wrong on this, and the travelling shaolin monks would truly
make horrible fighters, I hope someone would please let me know.
I too was once out there defending Sin The' with every breath, but there
were just too many questions. I posed this question a while back and I pose it
again to all of his supporters: If Sin The' was this incredible grandmaster of
the greatest collection of martial arts knowledge ever accumulated (including
the secret arts of the death touch and liu fu tao) with mastery of 980 forms,
and he was every bit of his claims, dont you think there would be someone,
somewhere, out there, (outside of the system of shaolin-do) that would have a
good thing to say about him and his knowledge? It has never happened in the
two+ years I have surfed the net, not once! And I have actually tried to find
good things to be said about him. Like someone else said in an earlier post (I
forget who, I apologize) when chinese masters are posed the question of Sin
The' and his claims, they diplomatically decline comment (or something to that
effect). And that, in case you were wondering, is not a good thing.
Yt Zombie
>I saw a 3rd degree student with the last name of Mooney do a Drunken
>form at the spring tournament in Lexington. It was nothing short of
>awsome. It was a long ass form too. Possible 5 min. I wonder if
>he is related to Master Mooney?
>
>
That was Jamie, master Jim's son. He has a studio in Williamstown, WV--just
accross the river from Marrietta, OH.
Erik Harris
In article <199806230610...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, lexw...@aol.com (LexWldcat) wrote:
>statement. If I am wrong on this, and the travelling shaolin monks would truly
>make horrible fighters, I hope someone would please let me know.
Well.... You were lied to on many occasions, apparently, but this is more
truth than lie. What the traveling Shaolin monks do is NOT martial arts.
It's basically dance that is based loosely on martial arts. Many of them may
have also trained in martial arts, and as such, can fight extremely well..
Also, even though Contemporary Wushu is pretty poor and inefficient as far as
martial arts go, as you pointed out, these people are EXTREMELY skilled
athletes, and when you get good enough, even something that's poorly made and
inefficient can work for you against a considerably less skilled opponent.
In other words, what the "traveling Shaolin monks" demonstrate is not martial
art, but performing art. What their actual abilities consist of is another
matter entirely.
Erik Harris es...@cornell.edu
http://w3.to/erik/ ICQ: 2610172
ftp://esh7.resnet.cornell.edu
To avoid unsolicited mail, my address at the top is INCORRECT. Please be sure
to use -=>es...@cornell.edu<=- to reply in email, without the underscore.
jdh...@tgtel.com
AMEN brother!
In article <199806230610...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
lexw...@aol.com (LexWldcat) wrote:
>
jdh...@tgtel.com
AMEN brother!
In article <199806230610...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
lexw...@aol.com (LexWldcat) wrote:
>
Supoman
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:56:02 GMT, jdh...@tgtel.com wrote:
>> Here are some things that I was told while in the system:
>> 1) We were strictly forbidden to study any other style (or for that matter
>> go to any other martial arts school) period. If we did we would be kicked out
>> and all the other students, esp black belts would be encouraged not to speak to
>> you. Not exactly a positive attitude and not one that fosters any goodwill in
>> the martial arts community (not to mention an exceptionally arrogant attitude).
Lies. I know several people who study outside the system. Including
black belts.
>> 2) We were again strictly forbidden to attend any seminars given by anyone
>> outside our system without the express consent of our teacher. A special case
>> involved George Dillman. If we were to have ever attended a Dillman seminar we
>> would have been kicked out, no questions asked. This was due to some sort of
>> lawsuit between Sin The and Dillman. Don't ask me the details on it, I dont
>> know andI couldn't pry them out of anyone. I dont know very much about
>> Dillman, Im not entirely crazy about him from what I've heard from other
>> people, but I have reserved my opinion. Still, this is a very harsh stance to
>> take, esp without explanation. Maybe someone out there can elaborate on this
>> for me.
See #1.
>> 3) When the issue of the shaolin monks came up, mainly after they appeared
>> on the David Letterman show a while back, we were told that although the monks
>> were fabulous athletes, all they did was wushu (meaning bit was all flash and
>> no substance) ,and that if one of the students (I understood this to include a
>> wide range of people, including low level black belts) of shaolin-do ever got
>> in a fight or sparring match with any of the monks, we would win every time. I
>> almost laughed aloud when this was announced. Maybe shaolin-do produces some
>> good fighters, maybe even world-class athletes, I dont know, but the monks
>> train a lot! If nothing else, they are great physical specimens, with great
>> flexibility and speed etc etc. It seems ludicrous to even suggest such a
>> statement. If I am wrong on this, and the travelling shaolin monks would truly
>> make horrible fighters, I hope someone would please let me know.
You were told right. The fighting monks are preety much dancers these
days.
>> I too was once out there defending Sin The' with every breath, but there
>> were just too many questions. I posed this question a while back and I pose it
>> again to all of his supporters: If Sin The' was this incredible grandmaster of
>> the greatest collection of martial arts knowledge ever accumulated (including
>> the secret arts of the death touch and liu fu tao) with mastery of 980 forms,
>> and he was every bit of his claims, dont you think there would be someone,
>> somewhere, out there, (outside of the system of shaolin-do) that would have a
>> good thing to say about him and his knowledge? It has never happened in the
>> two+ years I have surfed the net, not once! And I have actually tried to find
>> good things to be said about him. Like someone else said in an earlier post (I
>> forget who, I apologize) when chinese masters are posed the question of Sin
>> The' and his claims, they diplomatically decline comment (or something to that
>> effect). And that, in case you were wondering, is not a good thing.
>>
Dude nobody ever has anything good to say about:
Royce Gracie
Bruce Lee
Emin Boztepe
Dan Insanito
William Cheung
Hell even Dharuma himself.
Why should Grandmaster The' be any different? Martial arts are the
wrong place to look for acceptance from other people. The habit in MA
to put down everyone else and boost yourself. You wont recieve
general acceptance from the MA community no matter who you are. Wing
Tsun people put down jujitsu people, jujitsu people put down Wing Chun
people. They all put down Tai Kwon Do people. Everybody raises an
eyebrow when someone says their a Jeet Kune Do student. It'll never
end. You know why so many people remain with Grandmaster The'.
Because you have to be confident and happy with yourself first.
Marketing ploy or not, wherever you go you'll be hard pressed to find
a school where the teachers aren't trying to get the benjamins.
whether you'd like to accept it or not, whereever you go you're buying
a product, like coke. Some people like coke, some people like pepsi.
In your support, I really don't think many of the Masters buy
entirely into what they've been told either. I've taken festival
classes where they pretty much say "This is how it was told to me by
grandmaster the', You can beilieve it or not." It's like religion.
No one in the systems ever forces you to believe anything. You're
toaught the lineage as per Grandmaster the' and then you go on with
the important work of training a gettting better with MA.
Does Sin The' know what he claims? Who knows. (Master Ie but he's
dead) Was there really a Su Kong? The more I think about it the less
I believe there was.(my wife got a good chuckle from that Shaggy DA
picture of him in Grandmaster The's book). If your Master Hiang left
becuase he was tired of the lies then why didn't he leave a long time
ago? If he Sin's Brother shouldn't he have known he was lying all the
while? I think it was probably something closer to a $$$ issue why he
left. Like I said before. It's all about the bejamins baby!!!
Just my .02
Supoman
Roy Baker
See #1
--
7*Mantis
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
SOME CULTURES ARE NOT WORTH ASSIMILATING.
Grumpy
...trying to get the benjamins? huh?
Supoman wrote:
--
I was too idealistic to deal with reality,
so I became a cynic ;p~
David Bevins
Is this style headquartered in Kentucky near the Virginia state line???
Hunter Kid wrote in message <358db8fb...@news.mindspring.com>...
>1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
>2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
>he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
>best?
jdh...@tgtel.com
If your Master Hiang left
> becuase he was tired of the lies then why didn't he leave a long time
> ago? If he Sin's Brother shouldn't he have known he was lying all the
> while? I think it was probably something closer to a $$$ issue why he
> left. Like I said before. It's all about the bejamins baby!!!
Master Haing admits he does not know the history. He said when he was
younger and learning, he could have cared less about the history, all he
cared about was learning how to fight. He never asked, and was not told. As
to why he lef t his brother, he left because Sin kept demanding he teach the
advanced material that he himself had not learned. Sin left for the US YEARS
before Haing, and missed all the material Master Ie taught out during that
time, such as STEEL GOLD PALM. Also, Master Haing studied under a few other
shaolin masters. One was Liu Su Pong, who taught the Tai Peng Material and
the 7 section Chain Whip material. The only tai peng and chain whip that Sin
has and teaches is the material that was taught out while Master Hiang was
there teaching. Curious that Master Hiang has taught out 16 Tai peng forms,
and sin has only taught ONE. The one taught at BLUE BELT, which is only 1/3
of the form! He only has THAT because Master Haing taught it while teaching
with Sin. Now what animal system can Sin claim to have taught 16 forms from?
Of all the 18 forms systems he claims to have? Not black tiger, not white
crane, not dragon, not monkey, not mantis, NOT ANYTHING.
Hunter Kid
sup...@cyberdude.com (Supoman) wrote:
>>> 1) We were strictly forbidden to study any other style (or for that matter
>>> go to any other martial arts school) period. If we did we would be kicked out
>>> and all the other students, esp black belts would be encouraged not to speak to
>>> you. Not exactly a positive attitude and not one that fosters any goodwill in
>>> the martial arts community (not to mention an exceptionally arrogant attitude).
>
>Lies. I know several people who study outside the system. Including
>black belts.
It's possible this is only enforced for students directly under Sin
The'.
Hunter Kid
"David Bevins" <dbe...@nospammtnsys.com> wrote:
>Is this style headquartered in Kentucky near the Virginia state line???
It's in Lexington. I'm not sure exactly where that is, though. ^_^;;;
Hunter Kid
jdh...@tgtel.com wrote:
<axe kick>
Questions regarding Master Haing:
1. Where are his schools?
2. Is the system similar to Shaolin-do, only with more authentic
material?
3. What is his school called? Shaolin-do pt. 2? ^_-
4. The Tai Peng forms are the 'Great Bird' forms, what are the other
bird forms in Shaolin-do (learned during brown belt)? Eagle Claw?
5. What degree black belt is Master Haing?
6. Is Master Haing authentic? (That is, there's all these claims
raised as to whether the stuff Master Ie Chang Meng and Su Kong knew
was real. Is Haing's material any different?)
7. Is his school system different? (Regarding uniform (gi), rules,
belt system, etc.)
Thanks. ^_^
Erik Harris
In article <6mr32r$2r$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>, sup...@cyberdude.com (Supoman) wrote:
>Dude nobody ever has anything good to say about:
>
>Royce Gracie
>Bruce Lee
>Emin Boztepe
>Dan Insanito
>William Cheung
>Hell even Dharuma himself.
Since when? I've heard plenty of very experienced and well respected martial
artists saying plenty of good things about most of these people.
>Why should Grandmaster The' be any different? Martial arts are the
>wrong place to look for acceptance from other people. The habit in MA
>to put down everyone else and boost yourself.
Among poor martial artists, this is common.. Among good martial artists, this
occasionally happens..
Supoman
>Supoman, don't even pretend to be able to tell me that these are lies. I did
>not make this up, this was told to me by my former teacher Bill Leonard, 7th
>degree black belt, senior student of Sin The'. If you want I could probably
>even figure out a general time period that he told this to my class, possibly
>even pinpoint it down to a month. Point being, it is not a lie, it was told to
>me by Bill Leonard, I didnt make it up, and in fact was one of the first things
>that I picked up on that I didnt like. Maybe other teachers let their students
>study outside the system, (I think it has even been mentioned) but this
>information was handed down directly by Sin The's most senior student.
I can believe that about master leonard. Can you say senile?
> The part about the seminars, esp Dillman, was a very serious point, he was
>NOT kidding around about it. You weren't there, don't tell me I'm lying.
>
>>You were told right. The fighting monks are preety much dancers these
>>days.
>>
>I never said the monks were great fighters and were the equivalent to the monks
>of old. However, to say that almost any student of shaolin-do would be able to
>defeat any of those monks, is ludicrous. Maybe higher level students would
>fair well,( maybe even be able to lay out a whole group of monks). but when
>talking about lower level students (whose physical capabilities in no way match
>those of the monks) I am positive the outcome would be much more complex than
>the blanket statement of "our students would beat the monks everytime".
Yeah that's a bit of a generalzation. We'd proably just kick those
monks asses about 80% of the time.
>
>.>In your support, I really don't think many of the Masters buy
>>entirely into what they've been told either.
>If this is the case, and you know that many of the masters dont buy into some
>of the stuff, how can you or the masters be confident in anything else that
>goes on. If one little "white" lie here and there is possible, whats to stop
>it anywhere else?
think about i like this. Your master haing is teaching the same
material up to 5 th black ass I understand it. So if i'm in the
shitter, were both in the shitter.
>
>have to choose what to believe and what not to. How can anyone express the
>total faith and respect in their teacher and grandmaster, that is usually
>desirable in martial arts, when you can sit back and actually admit there are
>probably some lies in the mix and you just choose what you want to believe in?
You tell me. You're learning the same thing I am. Do you have
absolute faith? JD even says that he thinks that Ie Chin Ming
probably picked up alot of this stuff all over asia as opposed to it
all coming from Shaolin and Su Kong. Ask your master if he believes
that Su Kong was the last Grand Master from the Fukien temple. Since
you seem to be the type to hit the road when you don't get the answers
you want then you'd better start packing.
>>If your Master Hiang left
>>becuase he was tired of the lies then why didn't he leave a long time
>>ago?
>
>I asked this question also. Remember Hiang is Sin's younger brother and in
>Chinese families (at least from what I've been told) the elder brother is the
>one that should be listened to and given respect. I know of people saying that
>when they encountered shaolin-do twenty some years ago, the # of forms claimed
>to be in the system was around 500. Now it is up to almost 1000. I have heard
>a similar statement from someone else stating that the material taught when Sin
>first came to the states is a lot different than a lot of what he is teaching
>now.
Assumtions. That's all i'm disagreeing with. Too many people making
too many assumptions. Can it be that 20 years ago there weren't as
many senior students as there are now? Is the person that told you
this comparing apples to oranges? Did he learn white belt material
from Grandmaster the' 20 years ago and is learning it from him again
now?
>> I think it was probably something closer to a $$$ issue why he
>>left.
>
>Well, I will admit $$$ controls a lot of people and a lot of the world.
>However I doubt this was Master Hiang's purpose. I seriously doubt he got rich
>off of leaving Sin's group. Master Hiang's schools are small and fairly hidden
>compared to the large # of Sin's schools which are advertised a lot more. Sin
>The' claims a very dramatic history and would like everyone to believe he is
>the prodigal son of martial artists. (For example read his book on the parts of
>his sixth sense training when he compares it to the training Luke Skywalker
>received in Star Wars) A lot of people, imho, get caught up in it and want
>to believe it themselves, because it is always a good feeling to be part of
>something as incredible as that.
> I mean no ill wil towards you or anyone else that studies shaolin-do, I
>have just chosen a different path and when these questions come up I feel
>obligated to offer my side of the discussion.
>
Cool. May the force be with you.......:) BTW what's the name of
Master Hiangs schools again? Shaolin S? What does that mean? Just
curious. I've learned alot in the last couple of days. Didn't you say
you were brown? Maybe we could compare notes.
Supoman
LexWldcat
>I can believe that about master leonard. Can you say senile?
>
>
Well, don't believe it if you don't want to. I studied under him, I was there.
Why not give him a call and ask him yourself, I'm sure you can find the phone
# to his school on the net
. >think about i like this. Your master haing is teaching the same
>material up to 5 th black ass I understand it. So if i'm in the
>shitter, were both in the shitter.
>
>
>You tell me. You're learning the same thing I am. Do you have
>absolute faith?
I have never said (and if I did I apologize I didnt meant to imply) that
everything in the style was crap and useless. I still think it's a good style-
the main core material. I have never made any remarks about any of the people
in shaolin-do, Sin The' or otherwise, regarding what they know, how they teach,
how nice of a person they are, or how good a fighter they are. I know I
studied under a very good teacher and from what I've heard Sin The' is a very
good teacher also. It is just the lies that got to me. I don't like being
lied to and it is not too much to ask to not be lied to. It blows my mind that
there are people out there that could put up with it. There are too many other
good styles to study to waste time on one where the students aren't respected
enough to be told the truth. I could even understand not being told certain
things because I wasn't a black belt yet. But it was more than that.
The little analogy I made up dealt with the idea that this whole
discussion is centered around. That Sin claims to know such an impossible
number of forms and these forms (as Ive been told by other people,
practitioners of other arts etc) have been found in books, so there are some
issues of questionability on how and when he learned some of this material.
For example all the Praying Mantis seminars he has been teaching have never
been taught out before, in all his 30+years of teaching, and it is material
that has been found in books and on video. Plus he spends a large amount of
time in California, where there is a large Chinese community, huge possibilties
to pick up more material. Whether through videos or books or personal
instruction (which I find doubtful) When Sin The' took one of his former
students to court and started pulling out notes to forms that he was trying to
copyright, why didnt he pull out the notes to his various praying mantis forms
there?
Also keep this in mind, he learned all 980 forms in 10 years, when class
was run slowly and much time was spent in reviewing material (a line from his
book). But he has taught at an accelerated pace for 30 years and he is just
now teaching out this material? I know for a fact, Bill Leonard would learn
anything thrown at him. If Sin The' did know all the material he claims, he
could teach it all out and Bill Leonard would do his damndest to master it all,
as I'm sure some of the other masters would also. So why wait so long to teach
it? Especially since he had already taught out some praying mantis forms from
a different system (why not finish that system of praying mantis first?) and
some of the new stuff he was teaching was beginning level forms. Hard to
imagine keeping basic forms from everybody for that long.
>you seem to be the type to hit the road when you don't get the answers
>you want then you'd better start packing.
>
>
Again, don't talk down to me. I spent just over two years there. From the
very beginning I jumped on the net to research the history of the art. I was
not looking for bad stuff. I was looking for good stuff, thinking I had chosen
to study a great martial art with the best grandmaster in the world. I was
actually very, very enthusiastic about it and a had good deal of total faith
for a long time. I became very defensive when confronted with all the info
that is out there. I don't "hit the road when I don't get the answers I want"
that is ridiculous. I made an informed, educated decision that I came to over
a period of time, it was anything but a kneejerk reaction.
>Can it be that 20 years ago there weren't as
>many senior students as there are now? Is the person that told you
>this comparing apples to oranges?
No, actually the two comments I mentioned came from people that have never
studied shaolin-do, but people that have run across members of it recently as
well as a long time ago. Their comments were based on what they were told or
had heard from Sin The' at different times, then and now and the big difference
in what they were told (specifically on how many forms were claimed to be in
the system.
>BTW what's the name of
>Master Hiangs schools again? Shaolin S? What does that mean? Just
>curious.
I don't know what Shaolin S is. Master Hiang's schools, at least from what
little I know (keep in mind I'm new to the whole setup) go under the name of
shaolin kuoshu. The material is pretty much the same up till 4th or 5th black
I believe.
> Didn't you say
>you were brown? Maybe we could compare notes.
Sure, probably best in private email, so as not to further bore anyone else out
there. There are some differences as to when certain forms are taught and
things of that nature, but I'm pretty sure it's all the same. Just email if
you want to. Take care.
jdh...@tgtel.com
>
> Questions regarding Master Haing:
>
> 1. Where are his schools?
Most are in Ky. Knott county, prestonsburge, hazard, pikeville, cynthiana
are a few that I can think of. One is in Ohio.
> 2. Is the system similar to Shaolin-do, only with more authentic
> material?
It IS shaolin do, only without out the fake stuff added in.
> 3. What is his school called? Shaolin-do pt. 2? ^_-
It is called Shaolin do.
> 4. The Tai Peng forms are the 'Great Bird' forms, what are the other
> bird forms in Shaolin-do (learned during brown belt)? Eagle Claw?
dove, white crane, tai peng.
> 5. What degree black belt is Master Haing?
He was tested to 7th degree black, but Sin gave him an 8th degree which he
did not accept.
> 6. Is Master Haing authentic? (That is, there's all these claims
> raised as to whether the stuff Master Ie Chang Meng and Su Kong knew
> was real. Is Haing's material any different?)
No question as to if it was real. Yes the material is real, but where it
came from and how much is what is in question.
> 7. Is his school system different? (Regarding uniform (gi), rules,
> belt system, etc.)
Same gi and some of the same patches.
Hunter Kid
jdh...@tgtel.com wrote:
>> 1. Where are his schools?
>
>Most are in Ky. Knott county, prestonsburge, hazard, pikeville, cynthiana
>are a few that I can think of. One is in Ohio.
None in Atlanta? :P
>> 3. What is his school called? Shaolin-do pt. 2? ^_-
>
>It is called Shaolin do.
Someone else mentioned it was called Shaolin Kuoshu - does that mean
the same thing, then?
>> 4. The Tai Peng forms are the 'Great Bird' forms, what are the other
>> bird forms in Shaolin-do (learned during brown belt)? Eagle Claw?
>
>dove, white crane, tai peng.
I already learned the Tai Peng form (the 1/3 of it or whatever learned
at blue belt); so the other three in brown belt are dove? (White
Crane is seperate.)
>> 5. What degree black belt is Master Haing?
>
>He was tested to 7th degree black, but Sin gave him an 8th degree which he
>did not accept.
Who was Haing tested by? Master Ie, before he came to the states?
jdh...@tgtel.com
>
> >> 1. Where are his schools?
> >
> >Most are in Ky. Knott county, prestonsburge, hazard, pikeville, cynthiana
> >are a few that I can think of. One is in Ohio.
>
> None in Atlanta? :P
nope.
>
> >> 3. What is his school called? Shaolin-do pt. 2? ^_-
> >
> >It is called Shaolin do.
>
> Someone else mentioned it was called Shaolin Kuoshu - does that mean
> the same thing, then?
My teacher calls our club Shaolin Kuoshu. It means "traditional art" to
seperate it from wushu.
>
> >> 4. The Tai Peng forms are the 'Great Bird' forms, what are the other
> >> bird forms in Shaolin-do (learned during brown belt)? Eagle Claw?
> >
> >dove, white crane, tai peng.
>
> I already learned the Tai Peng form (the 1/3 of it or whatever learned
> at blue belt); so the other three in brown belt are dove? (White
> Crane is seperate.)
>
> >> 5. What degree black belt is Master Haing?
> >
> >He was tested to 7th degree black, but Sin gave him an 8th degree which he
> >did not accept.
>
> Who was Haing tested by? Master Ie, before he came to the states?
Master Haing was tested to 6th by Master Ie before coming to the states. He
returned to Indonesia a few times to train and was tested to 7th by Master Liu
Su Pong, the tai peng, chain whip, and internal chi kung master. What most
people do not realize is that Master Ie was not the only teacher there. There
were several masters and they an organization. I have most of their names on
my page. Master Haing studied under all of them, where as Sin only studied
under Master Ie. Also, there is no evidence to support that Master Ie was the
"grandmaster" or even head of this organization.
Supoman
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:43:35 GMT, esh7@c_rnell.edu (Erik Harris)
wrote:
>>Why should Grandmaster The' be any different? Martial arts are the
>>wrong place to look for acceptance from other people. The habit in MA
>>to put down everyone else and boost yourself.
>
>Among poor martial artists, this is common.. Among good martial artists, this
>occasionally happens..
Hi, My name is:
>Erik Harris es...@cornell.edu
and I live in a bizaro world.
Supoman
benv...@gmail.com
Mighty Wannabe
> I trained almost 30 years ago under Gary Porter who trained under Master Sin. Trust me its real and he is real.
>
GreenDistantStar) and Fraser Johnston would learn 6 months of BJJ and
hump your leg until you cry mama. Of course you are supposed to follow
UFC "no-holds-barred" rules like "no striking with the bony tip of the
elbow, no eye-gouging, no biting, no attack of throat or gonats, no
fish-hooking, no small-joint manipulation (prying open individual
fingers to release their hold)".
angele...@gmail.com
> So who would I go to in the Atlanta area if I was interested in
> finding an authentic Taiji Chuan master? Or Orlando? And what are
> the names of some good systems in the Atlanta/Orlando areas?
chassbr...@gmail.com
herbal...@hotmail.com
> I've been reading the thread in which some people are claiming that
> Grandmaster Sin The' is a fraud, and others are ardently defending
> him.
>
> Now, to be honest with you, I wouldn't care about this one way or the
> other if I wasn't already into the Shaolin-Do system. I am currently
> a green belt, about to test to brown, and planning to sign up for
> another year of training. (I train in Atlanta, not under Sin The'
> himself, but under Sifu Michael Reid, who in turn trains under Master
> Gary Grooms. I assume those names, if anyone is familiar with them,
> are reputable?) For the record, I have a first degree black belt in
> Choi Kwang Do (which I quit some time ago), and scattered training in
> Taiji Chuan (from the Shaolin-Do school), Hapkido, Ninjutsu, Kendo,
> Tai Kwon Do, etc.
>
> Okay, now let me be clear about this - the system seems very good.
> And effective. The instructors at the two Atlanta schools (Marietta
> and Norcross) are both very skilled fighters and martial artists. But
> if the Grandmaster is a liar/fraud/disreputable fiend or whatever who
> everyone outside the Shaolin-Do system hates, that's definitely a
> problem.
>
> So here's what I want to know:
> 1. Is Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' a fraud?
> 2. If he is, in what way? Is he an unskilled martial artist, or does
> he merely exaggerate his abilities? If he isn't, is he one of the
> best?
> 3. Is the Shaolin-Do system reputable? (It seems to be effective.)
>
> whatever his name is (the disgraced student of Sin The's) spewing vile
> slander about the Grandmaster. I would like some neutral opinions
> from people in or not in the Shaolin-Do system, as long as they are
> familiar with it and/or Sin The' himself.
>
> A warm thanks in advance. ^_^
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jmoh...@gmail.com
So assuming nothing had changed.
This system is in my opinion the most structured system, and has the most material.
I am comparing that to other systems I have looked at, or my son has gone too.
Ex. Each week you have a set things you are going to learn to achieve your next rank. So week one white belt you learn 5 of 10 sparing forms. Week two the 2nd half of the 10, week 3 5 of 10 short forms and so on.
Other systems seem less structured.
Now let's say grand master the never took one day of martial arts. To come up with a system with so much material... well my hat is off to him.
For someone like master grooms, who last time we talked was 6 or 7th black, and then finding out that everything past 5th is made up, might piss me off a bit.
But....
Every martial arts system is made up. The original concept came from a monk from India.
Also the ridge hand you learn as a white belt is the same ridge hand you are doing as a master. The only difference is you have thrown it 5+ more than that white belt.
So unless you are learning some system from ancient aliens you get out of it what you put in it.
Example: her in Atlanta we had that American karate guy, I'm sure if you took his style for over 5 years you would be able to defend yourself. Just the amount of material might be less than grand master the.
So at the end if the day, with grand master the's system you will get years of new material, hard, soft, weapon and internal styles. All with a structure to it.
Once you get to 6th degree, if you think his own forms are crap then just work on everything fro 5th black down.
If you get in a fight you will never use a fraction of that anyway, and if you are a 5th black the fight will be over after 2 maybe 3 hits.
I guess I do not have issue with grand master the making up material past 5th black, because all of them do. Bruce Lee made an entire system up, no one bashes him. Now he claimed it has his own, so I guess that's the line, but from my understanding white to 5th black is original so I guess cut the guy some slack and give some props for bringing a good system to the table.
But I don't have alot invested in it.
But master grooms was an awesome teacher. If he was still here in Atlanta I would be taking instruction from him.
Master Reeds school is too far for me.
And the Norcross location is just a pain from where I live.
Anyway short answer is if it was close by I would be taking it, vs something else.
But if you just want to learn to fight anything will work.
aright...@gmail.com
> the greatest collection of martial arts knowledge ever accumulated (including
> the secret arts of the death touch and liu fu tao) with mastery of 980 forms,
> and he was every bit of his claims, dont you think there would be someone,
> somewhere, out there, (outside of the system of shaolin-do) that would have a
> good thing to say about him and his knowledge? It has never happened in the
> two+ years I have surfed the net, not once! And I have actually tried to find
> good things to be said about him. Like someone else said in an earlier post (I
> forget who, I apologize) when chinese masters are posed the question of Sin
> The' and his claims, they diplomatically decline comment (or something to that
> effect). And that, in case you were wondering, is not a good thing.
Hollywood decided to go with a 5-point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7nLSSSWjw
Sin The discussed One Punch Kill with us. This is it.
His word was Napoli, to my knowledge.
एक पंच हत्या Ēka pan̄ca hatyā.
That is what it sounded most like, for "One Punch Kill".
THIS IS THE ONE PUNCH KILL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m59Ayt3sUN0
This is wiki about the Chinese version. It can be a 'delayed' death. You know if someone screws up your kindy with a tylone-type death grip, it is not a good way to live through the week.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_of_Death
Dim mak is depicted as a secret body of knowledge with techniques that attack pressure points and meridians, said to incapacitate or sometimes cause immediate or even delayed death to an opponent. Little scientific or historical evidence exists for the existence of a martial arts "touch of death", although it has been confirmed that trauma may cause disproportionately catastrophic consequences when applied to known pressure points under specific circumstances.[1] Commotio cordis, for example, is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest.
The concept known as vibrating palm originates with the Chinese martial arts Neijing ("internal") energy techniques that deal with the qi energy and the type of force (jin) used. It is depicted as "a technique that is part psychic and part vibratory, this energy is then focused into a wave".[2]
aright...@gmail.com
> In article <199806230610...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, lexw...@aol.com (LexWldcat) wrote:
> >make horrible fighters, I hope someone would please let me know.
>
> truth than lie. What the traveling Shaolin monks do is NOT martial arts.
> It's basically dance that is based loosely on martial arts. Many of them may
> have also trained in martial arts, and as such, can fight extremely well..
> Also, even though Contemporary Wushu is pretty poor and inefficient as far as
> martial arts go, as you pointed out, these people are EXTREMELY skilled
> athletes, and when you get good enough, even something that's poorly made and
> inefficient can work for you against a considerably less skilled opponent.
>
> In other words, what the "traveling Shaolin monks" demonstrate is not martial
> art, but performing art. What their actual abilities consist of is another
> matter entirely.
> Erik Harris es...@cornell.edu
> http://w3.to/erik/ ICQ: 2610172
> ftp://esh7.resnet.cornell.edu
>
> To avoid unsolicited mail, my address at the top is INCORRECT. Please be sure
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