Christian martial artists
notme
> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
> I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
> are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
> a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
>
> Patsy
I'm not sure this is what you want, but the Chinese Kara ho Kempo
karate system/organisation is basicly christian, was founded
by a christian, and is run by a christian. A prayer is
said before classes, and thier is a cross in the symbol
on the badge. Though unless you wanted to learn kara ho kempo...
I don't know how usefull this info would be unless you were just
wondering or something.
-phil
bra...@lucy.merrimack.edu
--
Everything said in this post is not any institution or groups
opinion, it isn't even mine.
If anything I've said has offended you I take it back to the
point of denying I ever said it :)
I did not write this.
paprtigr
Q
>Patsy
Hmm. Don't know of any off the top of my head, but I hear the Pope
throws a _mean_ roundhouse. ;)
You would think there would be some prominent Christian Martial-arts!
I mean considering how successful they've been at beating the hell out
of non-Christians for centuries... the Crusades, the conquest of the
Americas, etc. Geez where are all the martial-arts?
dtavares
Gospel Martial Arts Union
Attn: Ron Tottingham
412 S. Hawthorne
Sioux Falls, SD 57104
There is also a Christian Martial Arts Federation developed from a style
called Kirisuto Nomichi Do which roughly translates as The Way of the
Path of Christ. I do not have an address for this group but I may be
able to put you in touch with someone who can.
Dan T.
Jian Shan
: Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
: I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
: are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
: a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
I find that the buddhist and taoist principles conveyed by some
martialists is extremely similar to by Christian belief system. The
concepts contained in buddhism and taoism help me to feel closer to the
Father and be in tune more with the workings of the Spirit.
My advice is twofold: a.) Find an instructor that will not contradict
your religous belief system, or that of your children. b.) Develop in
your children the knowledge to decide issues on their own. Both should
help your children to grow mature as they grow older.
In any event, good luck.
jian
D. Henry's Classes PVAE
In a previous article, papr...@bev.net (paprtigr) says:
> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
>I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
>are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
>a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
>
>Patsy
>
Yes Patsy
In Mass, there is a style called Okame(Wolf)Go(Hard)Ryu(Way), which teaches
Christian philosophy in its style. They are an underground school but are
growing. You can reach them at; Sensei:Charles Raven Schmid
780A Riverglade Drive
Amherst,Mass.
01002
or call between 1pm - 5pm Monday thru Friday
1-413-253-5379
I hope this helps.
--
David Hanley
stay away from.
:)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
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Chu, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.
-Roy "Blade runner"
Bella Kinney
-> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
-> I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
-> are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
The words of Jesus are to "turn the other cheek". This seems rather
contradictory , if one is looking for a "Martial Art" that involves
methods of self defense and self protection from violence. What kind of
double bind are you thinking of putting your kids in by seeking a
Martial art that emphasizes Christianity? If you impose your own
internal contradictions apon your kids it will backfire in the long run.
While many persons claiming to be Christians espouse violence against
persons that they deem "Anti-Christian" or "immoral" it can be debated
as to whether these individuals are in reality practicing anything even
remotely resembling what Jesus taught. Please don't confuse your kids
like this. If you want them to learn MA take them to a good Dojo, If you
want them to be Christians take them to church. Better yet; they are old
enough to make independant decisions, Let them choose for themselves
what they will do with their lives and they will love you for your trust
in them. Bella
wharfie
>The words of Jesus are to "turn the other cheek". This seems rather
>contradictory , if one is looking for a "Martial Art" that involves
>methods of self defense and self protection from violence. What kind of
Oh, great Ghu... Aikido seems a very "Christian" martial art.
Or you could learn to fight with heavy warhorses and long lances, like
the Knights Templar...
I don't claim to understand Western religion, but I do know
that martial arts do not necessarily involve "espousing violence".
Pesky Wabbits
organization listed with a San Diego, CA location. Unfortunately I cannot
remember the name or address. I found out about them in the schedule
section of one of the martial arts magazines. Try also posting in
alt.religion.christian
To the one implying that Christianity and MA don't go together: Could you
please quote the passage in which Jesus states that you shall not defend
yourself when someone is about to take your life (although he did choose
to die). I am sure that the far eastern religions rebuked people that used
MA for the wrong reasons. Jesus would do the same. Many people train in
martial arts because it is fun. Not because they want to kill someone.
Many Dojo's teach some form of eastern religion (internal styles). Why do
you feel that Christianity is the only one that should be omited? I admire
the parent that is giving spiritial guidance to the children.
Rocky
In article <40.673...@channel1.com>, bella....@channel1.com (Bella
Kinney) wrote:
> -> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
> -> I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
> -> are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
> The words of Jesus are to "turn the other cheek". This seems rather
> contradictory , if one is looking for a "Martial Art" that involves
> methods of self defense and self protection from violence. What kind of
Mike Zettle
> All this info is great--it points out schools that I can
>stay away from.
>:)
Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!! As a Christian and a martial
artist I knew Patsy's request would not go without a comment even though
this one is mild. Do you check to see what the spiritual beliefs are of
every school you might be interested in ? If you do not want to go to a
Christian M.A. school thats fine but I cant help but think its more than
that or you would not have posted such a comment :) As a Christian and a
martial artist I have no problem going to non-Christian schools, I just
have to seperate and not practice the beliefs I do not prescribe to or I
would be a hypocrite. Some times by the time I do this there isnt much
left (I am not talking techniques). If you are trying to stay away from
Chritian school that should not be a problem, If you are trying to stay
away from any spiritual teaching in a school good luck there arnt many
out there. For me the M.A.'s are body, mind and spirit. As for the
spiritual my path is Christ, he is my DO (way). Yes there are Christians
who are jerks, fakes and so on (we have alot of self examining to do) but
that does not change who Christ is. Its starting to sound like Im
preaching so I better stop. Thanks for reading this and I welcome the
comments.
Mike Z
"to live is Christ to die is gain" Bible
"it is a good day to die" Worf
Joseph Hagerty
I am greatly in need of some mats that I can set up in a training
area in my back yard. Primarily these would be used for throwing
techniques for some of the beginners that I am teaching. I would much
prefer to find something that is weather resistant enough that I can
leave them outside. Or even better build them using plywood, padding
and canvas. Anyone else ever seen/build/or hear of anything?
Monty the Python
: Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!! As a Christian and a martial
: this one is mild. Do you check to see what the spiritual beliefs are of
: every school you might be interested in ? If you do not want to go to a
: Christian M.A. school thats fine but I cant help but think its more than
: that or you would not have posted such a comment :) As a Christian and a
: martial artist I have no problem going to non-Christian schools, I just
: have to seperate and not practice the beliefs I do not prescribe to or I
: would be a hypocrite. Some times by the time I do this there isnt much
: left (I am not talking techniques). If you are trying to stay away from
: Chritian school that should not be a problem, If you are trying to stay
: away from any spiritual teaching in a school good luck there arnt many
: out there. For me the M.A.'s are body, mind and spirit. As for the
: spiritual my path is Christ, he is my DO (way). Yes there are Christians
: who are jerks, fakes and so on (we have alot of self examining to do) but
: that does not change who Christ is. Its starting to sound like Im
: preaching so I better stop. Thanks for reading this and I welcome the
: comments.
I think the original guy was wondering why it is necessary to bring your
religion into whatever martial arts you do.
Would you go to a Christian dentist if your tooth was hurting? Or take a
cab with a Christian driver?
Martial arts is NOT a religion. MA philosophy deals with using your arts
with responsibility; not which god to worship. IMO, keep 'em separate.
Oz
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Dakin Burdick
strange hand jive that the ninja/buddhists used, a whole lot of
kowtowing for respect? I don't know, sounds like there's a spiritual
aspect involved there. I think the reason most of us cringe when
we hear of Christian martial arts is because we get people who
refuse to let their kids practice because zen meditation lets
the demons in their heads, and all that bowing and saluting
looks a lot like a paramilitary cult. A lot of the born-again
Christians seem to read a lot of stuff by preachers who say "don't
waste that money on the martial arts, give it to me." On the other
hand, a lot of martial artists are saying the same thing. :) The
trick is not to let money guide you. If someone doesn't want to
train with you, it's not a problem. There are lots of other folks
out there. Don't worry about it.
Dakin
PS: One local martial artist (once #6 in the PKA) is now a Baptist
minister. And a number of my students are christian (we just have
them do western meditation rather than zen meditation).
BillCMQ
of the scene in Gethsemane, when the soldier's servant's ear was cut off (
was proper kom technique used? ;-)) the criticism from Jesus was that
"the time was not right," rather than that it was not right to force to
protect someone you love.
Many principles of Christian life are parallel to MA. Consider- Don't harm
someone unnecessarily, be the best you can ( maintain the temple of the
spirit), and respect your superiors ( honor thy father and mother).
True Christianity is a way of life. True Martial Art is a way of life. And
right direction is always right direction. i.e. *What Conflict?*
Frank E. Dang
> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
>
>Patsy
Patsy,
I'm, curious, as to why you are looking for a Christian MA school for your children.
It seem that they are already in a MA school and so are you.
I don't know of any Christian MA school...being a parent I'm very cautious when
finding a MA school for my son. I think children, during the ages you mentioned,
are easily influenced by their instructors. I think it is very important for the instructor
to have "good" character.
Frank,
Mike Zettle
>Mike Zettle (mike...@kristina.az.com) wrote:
>: Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!! As a Christian and a martial
>: artist I knew Patsy's request would not go without a comment even though
>: this one is mild. Do you check to see what the spiritual beliefs are of
>: every school you might be interested in ? If you do not want to go to a
>: Christian M.A. school thats fine but I cant help but think its more than
>: that or you would not have posted such a comment :) As a Christian and a
>: martial artist I have no problem going to non-Christian schools, I just
>: have to seperate and not practice the beliefs I do not prescribe to or I
>: would be a hypocrite. Some times by the time I do this there isnt much
>: left (I am not talking techniques). If you are trying to stay away from
>: Chritian school that should not be a problem, If you are trying to stay
>: away from any spiritual teaching in a school good luck there arnt many
>: out there. For me the M.A.'s are body, mind and spirit. As for the
>: spiritual my path is Christ, he is my DO (way). Yes there are Christians
>: who are jerks, fakes and so on (we have alot of self examining to do) but
>: that does not change who Christ is. Its starting to sound like Im
>: preaching so I better stop. Thanks for reading this and I welcome the
>: comments.
>I think the original guy was wondering why it is necessary to bring your
>religion into whatever martial arts you do.
I find it hard to find classes that have NO religion.
>Would you go to a Christian dentist if your tooth was hurting? Or take a
>cab with a Christian driver?
I the other dentist says I HAVE to meditate with an empty mind, and focus
on an orb of light below my naval ...YES
>Martial arts is NOT a religion. MA philosophy deals with using your arts
>with responsibility; not which god to worship. IMO, keep 'em separate.
>Oz
Who said you need God or a god to be religious? 95% of the schools I have
visited have religious conotations. "keep ' em separate" I agree, but its
easier said than done. Also , how do you define religion? (oops here we
go) I hope i did not miss understand the first persons statement if so, I
appologize. I am enjoying these posts and appriciate the honesty in the
comments or any flames that may come, if I can not explane my beliefs
what good are they.
Mike Z
Marc Worley
liberatian would be better? (Tongue in cheek)
David Hanley
: dhanley@okeeffe (David Hanley) writes:
:
: > All this info is great--it points out schools that I can
: >stay away from.
: >:)
: Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!!
Do you mean "thought"? And who is this general "you?"
: As a Christian and a martial
: artist I knew Patsy's request would not go without a comment even though
: this one is mild. Do you check to see what the spiritual beliefs are of
: every school you might be interested in?
It depends. Many martial arts schools promote nonviolence and
harmony. I see this is a good thing, and it does not bother me.
However, a "christian martial art" would seem to carry with it other
phiosophical baggage, and frankly, I consider sone of christian
philosiphy quite revolting.
If the "christian" martial arts school simply taught
nonviolence and the like, I would have no problem attending. However,
at that stage it would be hard to tell it from any other school. For
example, I practived aikido for three years, and did not feel imposed
by shinto philosiphy. In fact, I would never had known it was shinto
unless I had read up on the history.
However, I'm going to react very, very badly to someone in a dojo
telling me who I can sleep with, and how; what kinds of books I should
read; what I should put in my body; and how I should live my life.
: If you do not want to go to a
: Christian M.A. school thats fine but I cant help but think its more than
: that or you would not have posted such a comment :) As a Christian and a
: martial artist I have no problem going to non-Christian schools,
What are "non-christian" schools? Schools that do not preach
christianity? Schools that teach martial arts not based on
christianity( like which ones? ). Schools not run by christians?
Schools openly unfriendly to christians?
: If you are trying to stay away from
: Chritian school that should not be a problem,
Especially now that names have been posted. :)
: If you are trying to stay
: away from any spiritual teaching in a school good luck there arnt many
: out there.
Not so. Many schools do just that. On the other hand, I
guess it depends on how you interpret "spititual teachings."
: "to live is Christ to die is gain" Bible
: "it is a good day to die" Worf
Oh no, a born-again trekkie. *groan*
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I.N.R.I.
Iron nails ran in.
David Hanley
: True Christianity is a way of life. True Martial Art is a way of life. And
: right direction is always right direction. i.e. *What Conflict?*
The conflict is that some people don't agree that christianity
is the right direction. Heck, most christians don't even agree on some
pretty major issues.
Krystal Locke
> All this info is great--it points out schools that I can
>stay away from.
>
>:)
>
Ahh, a kindred spirit. I see a fish on the sign, I know, I ain't
welcome. At least some of them are kind enough to let me know before I
get in the class, pay the money, etc....
Xtal
Monty the Python
: >I think the original guy was wondering why it is necessary to bring your
: >religion into whatever martial arts you do.
Mike Zettle replied:
: I find it hard to find classes that have NO religion.
: I the other dentist says I HAVE to meditate with an empty mind, and focus
: on an orb of light below my naval ...YES
: Who said you need God or a god to be religious? 95% of the schools I have
: visited have religious conotations. "keep ' em separate" I agree, but its
: easier said than done. Also , how do you define religion? (oops here we
: go) I hope i did not miss understand the first persons statement if so, I
: appologize. I am enjoying these posts and appriciate the honesty in the
: comments or any flames that may come, if I can not explane my beliefs
: what good are they.
: Mike Z
I see what you are trying to say, Mike, and it is perfectly reasonable.
However, I'd like to present an alternative viewpoint:
Our dojo is taught by a Christian. Our art is based off Shinto philosophies
with touches of Zen and Taoism. I am an atheist, but of late am becoming
interested in Buddhist/Taoist beliefs. We have Jews, Moslems, Hindus and
Christians in our school. We, as do most schools, teach *some* martial
arts though - mostly, learning to control your emotions, using your training
responsibly and avoiding permanent damage to your assailant unless it is
necessary. So this is not strictly Christian, but is it wrong? Does it
really conflict with what you believe in? Even if we were teaching
Buddhist thoughts, would it really hurt to expose yourself to other
beliefs?
I realize the importance your religion plays in your life. But shouldn't
your religion be something personal - as to how your art and religion mix,
shouldn't that be determined by YOU, and not by an instructor?
My 2 cents,
Jef Veatch
alt.religion.whatever, but i feel compelled to give my $.02:
I am a Christian. I also train martial arts, specifically, Tai Chi.
Initially, i was concerned that there would be conflicts between the
two. Quickly, however, i saw the parallels.
Personally, i train martial arts for 3 purposes:
1> Health
2> Spiritual growth
3> Self defense
The health aspect is simple. The Bible teaches us that our bodies are
temples of the Spirit, and we should treat them as such. This
involves keeping the body healthy, which requires regular exercise. I
chose to use Tai Chi as my form of exercise.
The spiritual side is also fairly simple. I am fortunate that my
school does not impose religious beliefs on its students. However, a
lot of time is spent in meditational stances. This time is spent to
clear your mind. This clearly reduces stress, and allows you to be
much more focused.
Personally, this has benefited my spiritual life in that, being more
focused, i can worship better, and my relationship with the Lord has
improved. As an added bonus, i can also work better at my job. My
relationships with my loved ones is better. For that matter,
relationships with my "enemies" is better ("enemies" was used for lack
of a better word) I consider this to be spiritual growth, regardless
of the religion practiced.
Self defense takes a little more thought. Jesus taught, if a man hits
you, turn the other cheek. Personally, i believe the lesson here is
not to be vengeful to someone who has done you wrong. Jesus instructs
us to love one another as he has loved us. His love is patient, kind,
doesn't envy, is not rude or easily angered. It is forgiving. It is
not vengeful.
So, how does training a martial art keep us from being vengeful?
First, studying martial arts allows me to not be struck in the first
place. If a man takes a swing at me, and i'm not there, the fight is
avoided. (Not fighting does not mean to just stand there and get
pounded to oblivion... :-)
Next, if i *am* forced into a conflict, my goal as a martial artist is
to use only the amount of force necessary on my opponent. The most
advanced practitioners that i have trained with have the ability to
totally subdue me without inflicting any pain whatsoever. I don't
kno' about you, but i find this to be awful kind considering that at
any time these people could easily break something belonging to my
person. :-)
Most importantly, training martial arts allows me to fight with a
clear head, as opposed to fighting in anger. If your opponent strikes
you and this upsets you, this causes your blows to become vengeful.
This is inappropriate as a Christian as well as a martial artist.
Training Tai Chi teaches me to take confrontations and just handle
them, as opposed to losing my cool. It will allow me to protect
myself without being vengeful in purpose.
A lot more can be said, but i'll leave it at that. (i can hear the
flame throwers getting unpacked already... :-) On that note, i will
say that i do not read UseNet regularly, so if you do reply to this,
please copy me via email. That way i can respect your response with a
timely reply.
Peace.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Try not! Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_ /|
Jef Veatch \'o.O'
=(___)=
jvea...@eng.eds.com U
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey Takacs
: papr...@bev.net (paprtigr) writes:
: > Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
: >I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
: >are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
: >a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
: >Patsy
: Hmm. Don't know of any off the top of my head, but I hear the Pope
: throws a _mean_ roundhouse. ;)
: You would think there would be some prominent Christian Martial-arts!
: I mean considering how successful they've been at beating the hell out
: of non-Christians for centuries... the Crusades, the conquest of the
: Americas, etc. Geez where are all the martial-arts?
Guns. They use lots of guns. Recall: the crusades weren't too successful.
Guns make everyone equally deadly. therefore, little need for martial arts.
Anyway, aren't the fundamental tenants of Christianity at odds with all
martial arts except aikido, tai chi and maybe hapkido? "turn the other
cheek" don't mean "turn the other cheek and whip your knee into their
groin". At least it didn't when I went to catechism. Maybe things have
changed...
This opinion is mine. What's yours?
Jeff
Rick Shank
>Can anyone steer me to a Martial art that emphasizes Republican viewpoints? Perhaps
>liberatian would be better? (Tongue in cheek)
>
Well, there is this art called Perot-Do. It is a somewhat watered down sport
derived from Perot-Jutsu. It was only defeated once in it's entire history
in 1992. It is the finest Libertarian/Republican art available to the world
You can see it featured every four years on the UPC (Ultimate Presidential
Competitions). It is practiced all over Texas and sometimes you can find it
in Colorado.
It is important to stay away from BushyDo. Taking it would not be prudent.
Another art to stay away from is Bill-Do. This art constantly waffles back
and forth between it's original art Bill-Justu and Bill-Do. The only benefit
is that the classes are full of slobbering women.
Rick
QUARK
>From: papr...@bev.net (paprtigr)
>Subject: Christian martial artists
>Date: 14 Aug 1995 19:35:16 GMT
> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
>I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
>are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
>a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
>Patsy
Sorry, Shito-ryu is from the devil. So is choy li fut, back when
Satan liked Chinese food. I guess we could say since all the martial arts
are from the devil, he's running quite a dojo down there...
I'm a little worried too that this damn eastern philosophy
is undermining our fine American Judaeo-Christian moral base, and it's high
time we recognize the founding fathers of this country all practised
Christian judo and karate...
Q.
MO...@bitstream.net
>PS: One local martial artist (once #6 in the PKA) is now a Baptist
>minister. And a number of my students are christian (we just have
>them do western meditation rather than zen meditation).
I feel compelled to add at this point that Zen is NOT a religion (though
Buddhism is). Zen is a philosophy, and one that does not necessarily
conflict with various religions, nor affirms them. It is simply
concerned with the here and now, and not the hereafter.
--MOJO
Don Wagner
Has everyone forgoten the new DC craze of ....
Ging-Rich gung-fu
--Don--
Robert Agar-Hutton
mike...@kristina.az.com "Mike Zettle" writes:
Hi Mike,
> >Would you go to a Christian dentist if your tooth was hurting? Or take a
> >cab with a Christian driver?
>
> I the other dentist says I HAVE to meditate with an empty mind, and focus
> on an orb of light below my naval ...YES
Excuse my ignorance but why would meditating with a clear mind and focusing
on an orb of light below your naval (I won't ask why you are pushing a
tourch up your bum in the first place <G>) conflict with your religious
beliefs????
I could understand if you were being asked to bow to an alter or an icon,
then there would be conflict. Equally if you were asked to pray for guidance
or even "open your mind/heart to the spirit of XXXXXX" but how is meditating
a problem ????
This is NOT a flame just a request for information.
Yours in the Arts.
--
Robert Agar-Hutton
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| (The above tag line was written in invisible ink, heat to view) |
+-----------...@winghigh.demon.co.uk----------------------+
Jeffrey Takacs
: get in the class, pay the money, etc....
: Xtal
Sometimes its not the policy of the school, but the students themselves.
Once, after a Lion Dance performance, a group of kids came up to me and
asked were it came from. Buddhist and Taoist symbolism and so on. I got
chewed out by one of the seniors (a fish) for espousing "other
religions". Hey, lets face it. Asian martial arts come out of buddhism
and taoism. If you don't like it...do something else. Or don't call it
an Asian martial art.
Jeff
Monty the Python
: Ahh, a kindred spirit. I see a fish on the sign, I know, I ain't
: welcome. At least some of them are kind enough to let me know before I
: get in the class, pay the money, etc....
Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the "fish" reference?
Dave Steffen
> Does anybody have any info on christian martial arts organizations?
> I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
> are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
> a student of CHOY-LI FUT kung fu.Thanks for any responses.
> Patsy
Not too long ago our school was considering joining one of the
international Chung Do Kwan organizations, so we invited an 8th Dan
out to give us a seminar, look us over, etc.
As it turned out this 8th Dan (who shall remain nameless) is a
_heavy_ Evangelical Christian. His seminar (for which we paid an
embarrasingly large amount of money) was 70% christian philosophy, 10%
advertisements for his cheap gold-plated jewelry, 5% "this is how good
I am" (he passed around his 8th Dan certifications - they were legit,
straight out of Korea) and the rest consisted of this man's "amazing
insights" into Chung Do Kwan.
Even the christian students were upset. In fact, most of the
black belts in my school are christian, and they were more upset than
I was (I'm more or less Zen Buddhist).
BTW, his "amazing insights" consisted of things that our
students learn within the first 6 months or so. Example: he puts a
diagram of a front stance on the board, tells us that the weight
distribution is this and these angles are that - then turns around and
says "isn't this great stuff?" Well, yeah, it's great stuff - and we
don't promote anyone from white to yellow belt unless they know it.
As it turns out, we learned many interesting things from this
man:
A) We want to have nothing whatsoever to do with his CDK
organization,
B) 8th Dan certifications don't mean shit, and
C) (unfortunately) the biggest swindler/snake-oil-salesman I
know of in the martial arts (_any_ m.a., not just CDK) is a
Christian.
This is _certainly_ not intended as a flame against
Christianity, just a flame against this one guy and his
organization. Moral of the story? If you _do_ find a Christian
organization, check it out just as carefully as you would any other
school, 'cause based on the reactions of my fellow (Christian)
students, their brand of Christianity may not be what you're after.
BTW Patsy, I'll email you the name of this guy so you can stay
away from him. My school is in a bit of a dicey political situation
right now so the last thing we need is for the senior instructor (me)
to start bad-mouthing people on the 'net!
/\
\/
Dave Steffen No, his mind is not for rent
Dept. of Physics To any God or Government
Colorado State University Always hopeful, yet discontent
stef...@lamar.colostate edu He knows changes aren't permanent-
But change is...
"Speak softly...
... and carry a black belt!" -Neal Peart / RUSH
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Krystal Locke
I have built mats, and would be happy to talk about it in Email, it's
cheaper for me. If anyone would like mat building tips, drop a line...
Krystal
Krystal Locke
I am SO glad you guys are true to your word and giving the same amount
of s*&t to these people that you gave me in the now ancient Gay Martial
Arts thread! No, really, at least you've done exactly what you said you'd
do, that's more than we get from people who espouse a philosophy of love
and acceptance while carrying signs that say "God hates fags". I'd rather
debate and discuss issues with people who are honest and somewhat
consistent(without being dogmatic), than those with a hidden agenda and
duplicitous "moral" code.
Krystal
Jeffrey Takacs
: Krystal Locke (aiki...@mind.net) wrote:
: : Ahh, a kindred spirit. I see a fish on the sign, I know, I ain't
: : welcome. At least some of them are kind enough to let me know before I
: : get in the class, pay the money, etc....
: Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the "fish" reference?
: Oz
The 'fish' is a masonic sign used by early christians when they were
persecuted by the Romans. It is actually the Greek letter alpha, but it
looks like a fish. Doubtless there is someone out here who know exactly
what it means, but I think it is either a reference to Jehovah's
nick-name of "the alpha and omega" (the first and the last), or a
reference to Jesus, the loaves and fishes...
I'm pretty sure, but please correct me.
Jeff
MC_Gusto
>Krystal Locke (aiki...@mind.net) wrote:
>: I am SO glad you guys are true to your word and giving the same amount
I'm glad I know martial arts so I can defend myself if I get caught in
a parade!
Straight Outta Locash:
MC Gusto
Dead Mike
Stab Master Arson
Monty the Python
: I am SO glad you guys are true to your word and giving the same amount
: of s*&t to these people that you gave me in the now ancient Gay Martial
: Arts thread! No, really, at least you've done exactly what you said you'd
: do, that's more than we get from people who espouse a philosophy of love
: and acceptance while carrying signs that say "God hates fags". I'd rather
: debate and discuss issues with people who are honest and somewhat
: consistent(without being dogmatic), than those with a hidden agenda and
: duplicitous "moral" code.
Besides, who needs racism/homophobia/etc.? It is *SO MUCH* more satisfying
to hate people on an individual basis.. :)
Oz
querist
: : : get in the class, pay the money, etc....
: : Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the "fish" reference?
: : Oz
: The 'fish' is a masonic sign used by early christians when they were
: persecuted by the Romans. It is actually the Greek letter alpha, but it
: looks like a fish. Doubtless there is someone out here who know exactly
: what it means, but I think it is either a reference to Jehovah's
: nick-name of "the alpha and omega" (the first and the last), or a
: reference to Jesus, the loaves and fishes...
: I'm pretty sure, but please correct me.
: Jeff
The fish symbol orginates from ancient times during which Christians
were being persecuted. Often one will see the Greek letters IXThWS
written in the symbol. These letters form both the 1st century Greek
word for FISH and the letters also happen to form an acronym which
in Greek could represent:
Jesus Christ God's Son, Redeemer
According to 'legend', it was used as a sign of recognition... one
Christian would draw the fish in the dirt or sand, and the other would
fill in the proper letters inside the symbol.
-glyn
rush...@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Since Jesus Christ is quoted as saying something to the effect of
"turn the other cheek", isn't any kind of 'violent' response to
violence against Christian practice?
(don't let postings get too far away from MA or we'll get yelled at)
--
******************************************************************************
Carol Rushworth email: rush...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
LOOKIE! I have a sig!! and it's only 4 lines long, unlike some people
who's sigs just go on and on and .... oops, never mind
******************************************************************************
Joan Tine
> Monty the Python (vka...@blue.seas.upenn.edu) wrote:
> : Krystal Locke (aiki...@mind.net) wrote:
> : : Ahh, a kindred spirit. I see a fish on the sign, I know, I ain't
> : : welcome. At least some of them are kind enough to let me know before I
> : : get in the class, pay the money, etc....
> : Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the "fish" reference?
> : Oz
> The 'fish' is a masonic sign used by early christians when they were
> persecuted by the Romans. It is actually the Greek letter alpha, but it
> looks like a fish. Doubtless there is someone out here who know exactly
> what it means, but I think it is either a reference to Jehovah's
> nick-name of "the alpha and omega" (the first and the last), or a
> reference to Jesus, the loaves and fishes...
> I'm pretty sure, but please correct me.
> Jeff
Uh...it wasn't a "masonic" sign at the time of the early Christians...
unless Jacques de Molay had a time hopper:).
The fish symbol is _much_ older than that. It was used by the cults
of Ishtar in Babylon, but with a _vertical_ orientation, since the
symbol was a glyph of the vagina, appropriate to Goddess worship, and
as such, the first thing a patriarchic cult needed to steal and
rehabilitate as they re-wrote the cosmological story of creation to
make it pro-male. (Beggar the question of how a male god gives
birth...it's a Mystery, we don't question it, and Cardinal Fang will
deal with dissent.) A great deal of Jewish->Christian material came
from the sojourn in Babylon, particularly the four principle
Babylonian Demi-Gods of the four directions. These metamorphosed into
the four great archangels whose names all end in "el" (which signifies
their Babylonian divine origin: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Oriel.)
Bear in mind that Christianity was just one of a dozen proto-Mithraist
cults, all espousing nearly the same set of practices, and differing
on minor points of cosmology, philosophy, and custom...and what god
they worshipped, of course. Mithra was born of a virgin at the
solstice, died for the sins of all men and arose from the dead on the
equinox...but then, so did everybody else, and if they didn't we'll
_still_ time our celebrations as if they did, so there. There was
little to choose between the various fledgeling anti-Roman cults in
the age of Augustus, and _darn_ little original thought on the part of
most of their founders, who borrowed heavily from each other.
To the Romans, of course, they were all the same.
One thing the Christians decided to do (once they had established
themselves as the preeminant faith supplanting Roman state religion,)
was taken right from the Roman's book. The "Divine Julius" was _so_
great he added an eleventh month to the year in his name. Augustus,
his disolute successor, not to be outdone, did likewise. The
Christians, realizing that adding a third extra month would reek of
low comedy, came up with the notion of splitting time and starting to
count the years all over again.
So we think of Julius and Augustus when we play in summer, but we
acknowledge Pope Gregory _every_ time we write the year.
(The only scientists around in days following (as Christianity began
to consolidate its political base), the Muslims, ignored the whole
ignorant, syphilitic gaggle. We burned their books and cities, halted
the development of _their_ civilization, and converted Islam from the
most open, cosmopolitain, and accepting of faiths into an intolerant
and militant religion. Had they not needed to get tough in self
defense, we'd probably be dealing with Muslim hippies today. In any
event, the viciousness of the Christians' need to re-write the story
of their origins manifested as suppression of knowledge from the
outset, masked as "encouraging concern for salvation, and disregard
for the sinful material world", and plunged the world into centuries
of darkness and disease, all in the name of Christ.)
In fact, the best seat-of-the-pants barometer of how close a culture
is to sliding into decay is the behavoir, numbers, and reversion to
type of its Christians, but you have to be careful, since if you
scratch a Christian you get a Luddite, and even in times of scientific
and cultural progress, there is a quota of nay-saying and
anti-intellectualism in the faith. It's only when it takes to the
streets and begins to regard itself seriously that you really need to
worry.
Joan
(Science isn't the natural enemy of religion, there are a lot of
devout scientists. HISTORY, on the other hand....)
(citations in next msg)
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat
Priscilla Asagiri Aerobic Fashions in Fiberglass
The Anna Madrigal Endowment for Pathological Forensics, 1967
Joan Tine
"Fish:
"A world-wide symbol of the Great Mother was the pointed-oval sign of
the yoni knows as _vesica piscis_, Vessel of the Fish. It was
associated with the "Fishy Smell" that Hindus made a title of the
yonic Goddess herself, because they said women's genitals smelled like
fish." (Actually, in the Mahabarata, it is one specific Goddess who
was born of the semem spat out by a hawk and a fish in a stream, who
became the mother of Vyasa, and thus of mankind, in return for the
removal of the stench--Joan) "The Chinese Great Mother Kwan-Yin
("Yoni of yonis") often appeared as a fish-goddess. As the swallower
of Shiva's penis, Kali became Minaksi the "fish-eyed" one, just as in
Egypt, Isis the swallower of Osiris's penis became Abtu, the Great
Fish of the Abyss.
"Fish and womb were synonymous in Greek; _delphos_ meant both. The
original Delphic oracle first belonged to the abyssal fish-goddess
under her pre-Hellenic name of Themis, often incarnate in a great
fish, whale or dolphin (delphinos). The cycles in which she devoured
and resurrected the Father-Son entered all systems of symbolism from
the Jews' legend of Jonah to the classic "Boy on the Dolphin."
Apuleius said the Goddess playing the part of the Dolphin was
Aphrodite Salacia, "with fish-teeming womb".
"Her 'boy' was Palemon, the reincarnated young sun, made new after
sinking into the same abyssal womb as the dying god Heracles. The
fish-goddess Aphrodite Salacia was said to bring "salacity" through
orgiastic fish-eating on her sacred day, Friday. The Catholic church
inherited the pagan custom of Friday fish-eating and pretended it was
a holy fast, but the disguise was thin. Friday was _dies veneris_ in
Latin, the Day of Venis, or of lovemaking: Freya's Day in Teutonic
Europe. The notion that fish are "aphrodisiac" food is still
widespread even today.
"The Celts thought fish-eating could place new life in a mother's
womb. Their hero Tuan was eaten in fish form by the Queen of Ireland,
who thus re-conceived him and gave him a new birth. In another myth,
fish were associated with the clots of "wise blood" emanating from the
Mother-tree with its sacred fountain, in Fairyland....
"The fish symbol of the yonic Goddess was so revered throughout the
Roman empire that Christian authorities insisted on taking it over,
with extensive revision of myths to deny its earlier female-genital
meanings. Some claimed the fish represented Christ because Greek
_ichthys_ "fish" was an acronym for "Jesus Christ, Sone of God." But
the Christian fish-sign was the same as that of the Goddess's yoni or
Pearly Gate: two crescent moons forming a _vesica piscis_. Sometimes
the Christ child was portrayed inside the _vesica_, which was
superimposed on Mary's belly and obviously represented her womb, just
as in the ancient symbolism of the Goddess.
"A medival hymn called Jesus "the Little Fish which the Virgin caught
in the Fountain." Mary was equated with the virgin Ahprodite-Mari, or
Marina, who brought forth all the fish in the sea. On the Cyprian site
of Aphrodite's greatest temple, Mary is still worshipped as Panaghia
Aphroditessa. In biblical terms, "Jesus son of Maria" meant the same
as as Yehhua son of Marah, or Joshua son of Nun (Exodus 33:11) which
also means son of the Fish-mother. Mary's many Mesopotamian names
like Mari, Marriti, Nar-Marratu, Mara, were written like the Hebrew
Mem with an ideogram meaning both "sea" and "mother". The next letter
of the Hebrew sacred alphabet was Nun, "fish".
Another biblical name for the Goddess was Mehitabel, none other than
the Egyptian Fish-mother Mehit in a Hebrew disguise."
(From: The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets by Barbara
G. Walker.) [London Times' Educational Supplement Book of the Year,
1986.]
(end quote)
So _thats_ why the Catholic church still made such a big deal about
"Mary Star of the Sea" when I was little! It's still pursuing its
pagan Aphrodite/Venis/Mari shtick!
Joan
Krystal Locke
>
>The 'fish' is a masonic sign used by early christians when they were
>persecuted by the Romans. It is actually the Greek letter alpha, but it
>looks like a fish. Doubtless there is someone out here who know exactly
>what it means, but I think it is either a reference to Jehovah's
>nick-name of "the alpha and omega" (the first and the last), or a
>reference to Jesus, the loaves and fishes...
>
The fish was also used as a "secret" sign for a bit of clandestine
communication. If a christian person met another person they thought was
of similar belief, they would subtly scratch an arc in the dust with
their foot. If the other was also, and knew about it, they'd finish the
fish by also scraping an arc in the dirt.
As far as the shape itself, the vesica piscis, it's traditional meanings
are widespread and varied. It has often been used as a symbol of the
female attributes, and what they "imply", among other things that I wont
waste anyone's time with...
Krystal
misc...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
>
> I feel compelled to add at this point that Zen is NOT a religion (though
> Buddhism is). Zen is a philosophy, and one that does not necessarily
> conflict with various religions, nor affirms them. It is simply
> concerned with the here and now, and not the hereafter.
>
> --MOJO
And I feel compelled at this point to add that for the four years I was in
Japan Zen Buddhism was a religion. I expect it still is.
REMc
Tengai no kyuko ne :)
Mike Zettle
>Mike Zettle (mike...@kristina.az.com) wrote:
>: dhanley@okeeffe (David Hanley) writes:
>:
>: > All this info is great--it points out schools that I can
>: >stay away from.
>: >:)
>: Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!!
> Do you mean "thought"? And who is this general "you?"
Yes. "you" is those who's coments range from sarcastic to "Kill all
Christians" I felt this one was a bit sarcastic, If I was wrong Sorry.
>: As a Christian and a martial
>: artist I knew Patsy's request would not go without a comment even though
>: this one is mild. Do you check to see what the spiritual beliefs are of
>: every school you might be interested in?
> It depends. Many martial arts schools promote nonviolence and
>harmony. I see this is a good thing, and it does not bother me.
>However, a "christian martial art" would seem to carry with it other
>phiosophical baggage, and frankly, I consider sone of christian
>philosiphy quite revolting.
Like what?
> If the "christian" martial arts school simply taught
>nonviolence and the like, I would have no problem attending. However,
>at that stage it would be hard to tell it from any other school. For
>example, I practived aikido for three years, and did not feel imposed
>by shinto philosiphy. In fact, I would never had known it was shinto
>unless I had read up on the history.
> However, I'm going to react very, very badly to someone in a dojo
>telling me who I can sleep with, and how; what kinds of books I should
>read; what I should put in my body; and how I should live my life.
Me too. Your point?
>: If you do not want to go to a
>: Christian M.A. school thats fine but I cant help but think its more than
>: that or you would not have posted such a comment :) As a Christian and a
>: martial artist I have no problem going to non-Christian schools,
> What are "non-christian" schools? Schools that do not preach
christianity? Schools that teach martial arts not based on
>christianity( like which ones? ). Schools not run by christians?
>Schools openly unfriendly to christians?
Schools not run by Christians,IMO
>: If you are trying to stay away from
>: Chritian school that should not be a problem,
> Especially now that names have been posted. :)
If the gay community posted a list of all there Dojo's and I said that
with a :) on the end, How do you think thay would take it??
>: If you are trying to stay
>: away from any spiritual teaching in a school good luck there arnt many
>: out there.
> Not so. Many schools do just that. On the other hand, I
>guess it depends on how you interpret "spititual teachings."
Yep.
>: "to live is Christ to die is gain" Bible
>: "it is a good day to die" Worf
> Oh no, a born-again trekkie. *groan*
thats treker to you, what are you new? :)
ahh, the plot takes a new twist!
Mike Z
Mike Zettle
>In article <mikezzzz....@kristina.az.com>
> mike...@kristina.az.com "Mike Zettle" writes:
>Hi Mike,
>> >Would you go to a Christian dentist if your tooth was hurting? Or take a
>> >cab with a Christian driver?
>>
>> I the other dentist says I HAVE to meditate with an empty mind, and focus
>> on an orb of light below my naval ...YES
>Excuse my ignorance but why would meditating with a clear mind and focusing
>on an orb of light below your naval (I won't ask why you are pushing a
>tourch up your bum in the first place <G>) conflict with your religious
>beliefs????
It was a rather large tourch and I have a small butt and MIKE 3:25 says
"ouch, dont be doing that" <l> I believe by totaly emptying my mind I
could be alowing something in I dont want.I clear my mind to think, I
empty my mind not think. We were to use the orb of light to heal our body
I wish to receive super natural healing from Christ, God the father or
the Holy Spitit only.
>I could understand if you were being asked to bow to an alter or an icon,
>then there would be a conflict. Equally if you were asked to pray for
guidance
>or even "open your mind/heart to the spirit of XXXXXX" but how is meditating
>a problem ????
Meditation is not a problem, I have my students meditate on short bible
verses like Proverbs 15:31 "A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a
patient man calms a quarrel" Its what you maditate on that concers me or
meditating with an empty mind.
>This is NOT a flame just a request for information.
>Yours in the Arts.
>--
>Robert Agar-Hutton
I hope this is understandable and I have answered your Q's. Thanks
Mike Z
Mike Zettle
>Krystal Locke (aiki...@mind.net) wrote:
>: Ahh, a kindred spirit. I see a fish on the sign, I know, I ain't
>: welcome. At least some of them are kind enough to let me know before I
>: get in the class, pay the money, etc....
Why would you not be welcome?
>Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the "fish" reference?
>Oz
From what I know it is a sign we Christians used to use to identify each
other in days when you could be killed for being a follower of Christ, I
think its goten a little out of hand and just because some one has one it
does not mean thay are a Christian.
Mike Z
Rick Cook
>Meditation is not a problem, I have my students meditate on short bible
>verses like Proverbs 15:31 "A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a
>patient man calms a quarrel"
Or, as the shotokan Dojo Kun has it:
Refrain From Violent Behavior
Respect Others
--RC
David Hanley
: dha...@matisse.eecs.uic.edu (David Hanley) writes:
: >: Ah thank you I thot you were all dead!!!!
: > Do you mean "thought"? And who is this general "you?"
: Yes. "you" is those who's coments range from sarcastic to "Kill all
: Christians" I felt this one was a bit sarcastic, If I was wrong Sorry.
Oh yes, christians are sooooooo persecuted in the United States.
So "you" just means anyone who does not looove christianity?
: and frankly, I consider sone of christian
: >philosiphy quite revolting.
: Like what?
If you really want to know, take it up over e-mail; r.m.a is
not appropriate for it.
: > However, I'm going to react very, very badly to someone in a dojo
: >telling me who I can sleep with, and how; what kinds of books I should
: >read; what I should put in my body; and how I should live my life.
: Me too. Your point?
The point being that you and I are going to get different
treatment in such places. Remember the schools we are discussing
here are ones that teach christian beliefs aspart of the art. You might
not notice the above problems because they already conform to your
personal prejudices.
: > What are "non-christian" schools?
: Schools not run by Christians,IMO
I don't think we are communiacting in the most effacious
manner here. When I say "christian martial arts school" this does not
mean to me "A M.A. school run by christians." It means "a M.A. school
that teaches christian philosiphy" , which is what this thread was
about anyways. I have attended schools run by christians with no
problem, but I would have walked out if I was subjected to parables,
prayer, etc.
: >: If you are trying to stay away from
: >: Chritian school that should not be a problem,
: > Especially now that names have been posted. :)
: If the gay community posted a list of all there
"their"
: Dojo's and I said that
: with a :) on the end, How do you think thay
"they"
: would take it??
I think we would take it just fine, cutie.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing is
Nothing becomes
Nothing is not
Allister Crowley, The Book of Lies
David Hanley
I depends on what you mean when you say "religion." Some
people's definitions are so broad, for example, that they label
atheism as a "religion."
Pesky Wabbits
meaning of the "fish". I somewhat remembered it but not enough to explain
it in detail. Thanks, I am glad you recalled it.
Rocky
Monty the Python
: And I feel compelled at this point to add that for the four years I was in
: Japan Zen Buddhism was a religion. I expect it still is.
Zen buddhism != Zen.
OZ
William H. Johnson
Oz, Hi Krystal) OK, lets gt right into the fflame bait, shall
we?this one is gonna be good, guys.
Where the hell did the idea that to be Christian is to be a
geek/ a victim/ and a wimp? Jesus was a revolutionary, feared
to death, literally by the ruling class of the Hebrews. He
kicked ass on an entire market place, and cleared the temple
with a braided whip.
The idea of turning the other cheek is one of attitude, not
lack of capacity for violence or naivete. You are not to hate
your adversary, but that doesn't mean you can't kick his ass if
he is threatening you or your loved ones. It means you have the
self discipline to do what is necessary, not to punish, and to
keep your cool as much as humanly possible. Jesus NEVER said to
avoid non christians, in fact, he pissed off the local
religious leaders ( yeah, Jerry Falwell, Swagert, Anal Roberts,
Tammy Bay-Faker, and the rest
have their archetypes in the Saduccees and Pharisees) They and
their foul teachings are the "corruption on the inside" that
Christ spoke of. THis poisioning of young minds expressed in
the insinuation that appears in the original post that one
should not have anything to do with "publicans and sinners",
(to hell with what Jesus did and taught, right?) is at the
heart of the poision that perverts Christianity from the inside
that has been around since the beginning. You can't take Karate
because you might braoden your thinking and besides, it ain't
American White AngloSaxon Protestant it's ferrrrin' , and Jimmy
Swaggert and Tammy Fay don't do it.
If your faith in Jesus is so tenuous that contact with another
belief will destroy it, than you are not a Christian, you are a
Swaggertonian, aPTLer, or maybe a throwback to Jonestown (AAhhh
remember , Jimmy Jones?? We never do learn, do we?)
IF you as parents are so poor in sirit that you deny the
experience of learning to your children and yourselves, you
ceratinly are not the product of seed on good earth. You are
sown on stone, and will be blown away with the first good wind.
To teach your children ,even by example that any son of God,
whether he espouses your particular denomination or not, is a
lesser being than you is sheer hypocrisy to the most basic
tenant of Christianity. \
There is no other study in the world that so compliments the
creed of the Church as given by Jesus than martial arts, unless
it is the healing arts. No other discipline so upholds the
ideals of the body as a temple, the mind as the seat of
learning and the heart as the realm of the soul, and one's
responsibility to improve oneself, and the world around one.
Hate and intolerance are NOT Christian values, nor is
"Christian" a convenient label as you and your false teachings
make it out to be. In fact., according to scripture, nothing of
this world is "Christian" and it is your acts and thoughts that
are important. IF you can only tolerate to be around those who
think and act within your human (definitely not divine)
proscribed parameters, then you deserve each other. \
Jesus lived among the downtrodden, he tolerated everyone, even
those whose profession (soldiers) was to kill, and he pardoned
a prostitute as one of his forst acts as the messiah.
The greatest
faith he found in the world was that of a "heathen" Roman
centurian whose servant was ill.
Perhaps the best "Christian" teaching you or your
family will ever get may well come from the arts with roots in
Buddhism, SHintoism, and Animism. Stranger things have happened.
In case I haven't been plain enough, nobody who plants labels
like "Christian" this or "Christian" that has a clue what the
term means. Furthermore, the CHristian Right in our fair
country is neither Christian nor right. it is foul and misled,
and it shames the Body and Church for all the world to see.
Flame on baby, come and get me. :-)
--
William H. Johnson at University of Virginia, Dept. of Cardiology
aka Wild Bill the Tuchuk <<<<<<<<<<<]===} {===[>>>>>>>>>>>
wh...@virginia.edu These opinions are my own.
Mr Jefferson will tell the University if they can have an opinion.
me
: As far as Christ's reaction to martial arts- In two of the four accounts
: of the scene in Gethsemane, when the soldier's servant's ear was cut off (
: was proper kom technique used? ;-)) the criticism from Jesus was that
: "the time was not right," rather than that it was not right to force to
: protect someone you love.
The time was not right? Sounds like an excuse.. or something someone made
up..
: Many principles of Christian life are parallel to MA. Consider- Don't harm
: someone unnecessarily, be the best you can ( maintain the temple of the
: spirit), and respect your superiors ( honor thy father and mother).
Don't harm someone unnecessarily = maintain the temple of the spirit?? How
do you figure that? Respect your superiors??? Who is your superior? WHY
is anyone superior?? I don't feel anyone is my superior, I respect people
for their talents but why should ANYONE be a superior to ANYONE else??
: True Christianity is a way of life. True Martial Art is a way of life. And
: right direction is always right direction. i.e. *What Conflict?*
Why are you so worried about it being a christian martial art? Whats the
point? Do you stuff in church, then go work out.. or is there something you
are worried about thats not being stated? Like demons running amok and the
devil influencing you to not give your money to the church elders..
--
craig
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
cra...@ids.net
cra...@conan.ids.net
Intelecom Data Systems
Internet Access Provider 401-885-0733
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
me
: Self defense takes a little more thought. Jesus taught, if a man hits
: you, turn the other cheek. Personally, i believe the lesson here is
: not to be vengeful to someone who has done you wrong. Jesus instructs
: us to love one another as he has loved us. His love is patient, kind,
: doesn't envy, is not rude or easily angered. It is forgiving. It is
: not vengeful.
What about if a womyn takes a swing at you? Damn christianity is sexist!
: So, how does training a martial art keep us from being vengeful?
: First, studying martial arts allows me to not be struck in the first
: place. If a man takes a swing at me, and i'm not there, the fight is
: avoided. (Not fighting does not mean to just stand there and get
: pounded to oblivion... :-)
Oops, again...if a MAN swings...what about a womyn? Sexist..
Krystal Locke
>: > Especially now that names have been posted. :)
>: If the gay community posted a list of all there
>: Dojo's and I said that
>: with a :) on the end, How do you think thay
>: would take it??
>
> I think we would take it just fine, cutie.
>
Whhhoooooo, you go, David! Smoochie, smoochie....
He's right, we take it just fine, that's why we try really hard to be
visible. If you don't like us, stay away, if you see a pink triangle in
the corner of a dojo ad, and it suits you, jump on in. No different from
the fish. No problem with me if you dont wanna train with me. I see a
fish, I know the school AINT for me, you see a triangle, you know the
school aint for you. No problem. Now how can I convince Sensei to put my
ActUp sticker on the dojo door???
Oh, BTW, if anyone would like info on gay/les/bi/trans(I'm so PC!)
friendly martial arts, write IAG...@AOL.com. They're an organization of
gay and gay friendly martial artists. Nice folk.
Krystal
jtnichol
masters as guests, was opened with an invocation by a Korean Methodist
minister.
One more stereotype should bite the dust. Not all Asian martial artists
are Buddhists, Shintoists, Taoists, etc.
Jim Nichols
Mike Zettle
>: > Do you mean "thought"? And who is this general "you?"
>: Yes. "you" is those who's coments range from sarcastic to "Kill all
>: Christians" I felt this one was a bit sarcastic, If I was wrong Sorry.
> Oh yes, christians are sooooooo persecuted in the United States.
>So "you" just means anyone who does not looove christianity?
anyone who does not looove christianity and loooves to let every one know.
> If you really want to know, take it up over e-mail; r.m.a is
>not appropriate for it.
OK E-mail me.
>: > However, I'm going to react very, very badly to someone in a dojo
>: >telling me who I can sleep with, and how; what kinds of books I should
>: >read; what I should put in my body; and how I should live my life.
>: Me too. Your point?
> The point being that you and I are going to get different
>treatment in such places. Remember the schools we are discussing
>here are ones that teach christian beliefs aspart of the art. You might
>not notice the above problems because they already conform to your
>personal prejudices.
The above problem would not happen in my Dojo unless I was asked, I have
Christian beliefs in my class but not in a way that is required or forced
on anyone.I guess it comes down to what a Christian Dojo is.
>: > What are "non-christian" schools?
>: Schools not run by Christians,IMO
> I don't think we are communiacting in the most effacious
>manner here. When I say "christian martial arts school" this does not
>mean to me "A M.A. school run by christians." It means "a M.A. school
>that teaches christian philosiphy" , which is what this thread was
>about anyways. I have attended schools run by christians with no
>problem, but I would have walked out if I was subjected to parables,
>prayer, etc.
1. OK sorry if I got of track. 2. Even if the parables or prayer agreed
with your beliefs? (E-mail that one i guess)
>: >: If you are trying to stay away from
>: >: Chritian school that should not be a problem,
>: > Especially now that names have been posted. :)
>: If the gay community posted a list of all there
>"their"
Wow I wish I could spell like you , BTW Its some not sone
>: Dojo's and I said that
>: with a :) on the end, How do you think thay
>"they"
>: would take it??
> I think we would take it just fine, cutie.
Na, I have two freinds who are gay thay say Im not cute, Besides your not
my type I can tell by your spelling :)
Mike Z
wharfie
>if anyone would like info on gay/les/bi/trans friendly martial arts
What's a gay-friendly martial art?
Krystal Locke
> What about if a womyn takes a swing at you? Damn christianity is sexist!
>
> Oops, again...if a MAN swings...what about a womyn? Sexist..
>
>
>--
>
> craig
>
What, Christianity sexist? Say it ain't so! I'm so appalled!
Krystal
Bella Kinney
-> make it out to be. In fact., according to scripture, nothing of this
-> world is "Christian" and it is your acts and thoughts that are
-> important. IF you can only tolerate to be around those who
-> think and act within your human (definitely not divine)
-> proscribed parameters, then you deserve each other. \
-> Perhaps the best "Christian" teaching you or your family will ever
-> get may well come from the arts with roots in
-> Buddhism, SHintoism, and Animism. Stranger things have happened. In
-> case I haven't been plain enough, nobody who plants labels
-> like "Christian" this or "Christian" that has a clue what the
-> term means. Furthermore, the CHristian Right in our fair
-> country is neither Christian nor right. it is foul and misled,
-> and it shames the Body and Church for all the world to see.
Right on Wild Bill! Do those crossed Bosk horns proud!
Bella (Formerly known as "The Mad")
(Presently "The Married")
David Hanley
: I find that people are much more open minded to religious
: principles if they're not taught in connection with any religion.
How are they 'religious principles' if not taught in connection
with a religion?
: I can talk about living in peace with your fellow man without
: telling people that it's a christian concept.
Actually, I was unaware that was a christian concept. :) Did
christians (or other religious people) invent this? Is an atheist
going to attack other people haphazardly?
: In our dojo we teach martial arts. Aikido, Judo, and Jodo. The
: martial arts themselves work to promote a feeling of peace within the
: students in most cases.
I guess I'm failing to see why it's a religious concept then.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've done extrodinary things! Revel in your time.
-Tyrell "Blade runner"
Chad J. Landry
principles if they're not taught in connection with any religion.
whatever.)
martial arts themselves work to promote a feeling of peace within the
students in most cases.
religious beliefs are personal, and they can find out the parallels
between the art and their personal beliefs for themselves.
There is much wisdom to be learned from most religions. To deny
this is to have a closed mind. There is also a lot of dogmatic bullshit
to be found in most religions which has been piled on by people through
the centuries. The challenge is to sift through the bullshit and find
the true teaching.
Please people, lets not pile a bunch of dogmatic bullshit on top of
the martial arts. We don't want future martial artists to have to sift
through the bullshit in order to find some worthwhile teaching.
I think that people who teach "christian martial arts" would find
their attendance increasing if they didn't frighten people off with the
word "christian". And the same values could be taught. Sometimes people
need a little help in opening up their minds. I know that I did. (And
still do sometimes!) I know that I would never have walked into a dojo
that advertised "christian martial arts". But as a result of them not
telling me about their christianity, I have gained alot of really good
friends whom I know today to be christians. And I occasionally attend
church with them, and good things are taught there too.
Sorry this one is so lengthy. I just couldn't express what I wanted
to say in just a few words.
Chad J. Landry
mark mcgee
> -> I have a 14 year old boy,13 year old girl,and an 11 year old boy.They
> -> are all green belts in Shito-Ryu karate.I am a single parent mom and
I don't know of any Christian martial arts organizations. However,
I don't think that should be the main reason you choose a teacher for
your children. I am a Christian who practices and teaches martial
arts. I studied Shito-ryu more than 30 years ago. It's a wonderul
martial art. However, but I wouldn't choose to study any martial
art from someone just because they are Christian.
First, find out what kind of people teach at any school in which
you are interested. Are they good with children? Do they instill
solid values of respect for others, respect for themselves, discipline,
self-control, faithfulness to teachers and friends? Do they teach
children to love and honor their parents? Are the teachers kind and
respectful toward children? Are they proud and egotistical or humble
and concerned about the needs of others? Are they technically skilled
in their art? Do they have a solid background in their art?
If the best teacher happens to be a Christian, wonderful. But if
not, don't let that stop you. The right kind of martial arts instructor
is going to help your child grow in the right physical and mental
direction. You as a parent can instill the truths of Christ in their
hearts and minds.
Rick Shank
Grappling. Oooooooooooooooooooooooo! Sorry I couldn't resist. :^)
Rick - You try to grapple me and I'm gonna strike you! :^)
David Hanley
: > I don't think we are communiacting in the most effacious
: >manner here. When I say "christian martial arts school" this does not
: >mean to me "A M.A. school run by christians." It means "a M.A. school
: >that teaches christian philosiphy" , which is what this thread was
: >about anyways. I have attended schools run by christians with no
: >problem, but I would have walked out if I was subjected to parables,
: >prayer, etc.
: 1. OK sorry if I got of track.
No prob, I just didn't want us talking past eachother.
: 2. Even if the parables or prayer agreed
: with your beliefs? (E-mail that one i guess)
Yes. I had a profesor in sociology who, though he agreed with
my views on many points, taught them as 'facts'. I don't agree with
this.
QUARK
>From: dha...@matisse.eecs.uic.edu (David Hanley)
>Subject: Re: Christian martial artists
>Date: 21 Aug 1995 16:50:03 GMT
>misc...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
>: In article <410e19$5...@marley.bitstream.net>, <MO...@bitstream.net> writes:
>:
>: >
>: > I feel compelled to add at this point that Zen is NOT a religion (though
>: > Buddhism is). Zen is a philosophy, and one that does not necessarily
>: > conflict with various religions, nor affirms them. It is simply
>: > concerned with the here and now, and not the hereafter.
>: >
>: > --MOJO
>: And I feel compelled at this point to add that for the four years I was in
>: Japan Zen Buddhism was a religion. I expect it still is.
> I depends on what you mean when you say "religion." Some
>people's definitions are so broad, for example, that they label
>atheism as a "religion."
Good time to straighten out a little misguided, if well-intentioned,
thinking. If you call buddhism a religion, then zen is a religion. If
you call buddhism a philosophy, zen is a philosophy. If you call it a turkey
shoot, it's a turkey shoot. Whatever buddhism is, zen is a subset of it.
You cannot separate the word "zen" out of buddhism, because all the teachings
of zen come straight out of the teachings of Mahayana. Pure and simple,
zen/chan is a school of buddhism, just like tendai, nichiren, etc.
It's not the same as Chrisianity, it's not your hippie flower-power
"be-here-in-the-now, man" pop psychology, either. This doesn't stop folks
from using the word "zen" for everything under the sun, but frankly, buddhists
find the loose throwing around of this word kinda odd.
Q. "new-age psychobabble rules" S.
Jeffrey Takacs
: dha...@matisse.eecs.uic.edu (David Hanley) wrote:
: >: > Especially now that names have been posted. :)
: >: If the gay community posted a list of all there
: >: Dojo's and I said that
: >: with a :) on the end, How do you think thay
: >: would take it??
: >
: > I think we would take it just fine, cutie.
: >
: Whhhoooooo, you go, David! Smoochie, smoochie....
: He's right, we take it just fine, that's why we try really hard to be
: visible. If you don't like us, stay away, if you see a pink triangle in
: the corner of a dojo ad, and it suits you, jump on in. No different from
: the fish. No problem with me if you dont wanna train with me. I see a
: fish, I know the school AINT for me, you see a triangle, you know the
: school aint for you. No problem. Now how can I convince Sensei to put my
: ActUp sticker on the dojo door???
: Oh, BTW, if anyone would like info on gay/les/bi/trans(I'm so PC!)
: friendly martial arts, write IAG...@AOL.com. They're an organization of
: gay and gay friendly martial artists. Nice folk.
: Krystal
That would make a cool design. four pink triangles joined like a
chrysanthemum, for a dojo logo.
Jeff
Jeffrey Takacs
: Where the hell did the idea that to be Christian is to be a
: geek/ a victim/ and a wimp? Jesus was a revolutionary, feared
: to death, literally by the ruling class of the Hebrews. He
: kicked ass on an entire market place, and cleared the temple
: with a braided whip.
very true
: The idea of turning the other cheek is one of attitude, not
: lack of capacity for violence or naivete. You are not to hate
: your adversary, but that doesn't mean you can't kick his ass if
: he is threatening you or your loved ones. It means you have the
: self discipline to do what is necessary, not to punish, and to
: keep your cool as much as humanly possible. Jesus NEVER said to
: avoid non christians, in fact, he pissed off the local
true, true
: religious leaders ( yeah, Jerry Falwell, Swagert, Anal Roberts,
: Tammy Bay-Faker, and the rest
: have their archetypes in the Saduccees and Pharisees) They and
: their foul teachings are the "corruption on the inside" that
big snip, but all true
: There is no other study in the world that so compliments the
: creed of the Church as given by Jesus than martial arts, unless
: it is the healing arts. No other discipline so upholds the
: ideals of the body as a temple, the mind as the seat of
: learning and the heart as the realm of the soul, and one's
: responsibility to improve oneself, and the world around one.
this is correct on the surface, but not in depth. For Christians, the
body is a temple ot God, but for martial artists (buddhist/taoist), the
body is temple to oneself (or the lack of self, or something alon those
lines).
All of what you say is true for the ideal of Christianity. the problem
is that christians see Christ as their ultimate savior, and
buddhist/taoist MA see themselves as their own salvation. My sifu is my
spiritual guide, not to have faith in Christ, but to perfection for the
sake of perfection...
Jeff
Jef Veatch
: Jef Veatch (jvea...@eng.eds.com) wrote:
: : Self defense takes a little more thought. Jesus taught, if a man hits
: : you, turn the other cheek. Personally, i believe the lesson here is
: : not to be vengeful to someone who has done you wrong. Jesus instructs
: : us to love one another as he has loved us. His love is patient, kind,
: : doesn't envy, is not rude or easily angered. It is forgiving. It is
: : not vengeful.
: What about if a womyn takes a swing at you? Damn christianity is sexist!
: : So, how does training a martial art keep us from being vengeful?
: :
: : First, studying martial arts allows me to not be struck in the first
: : place. If a man takes a swing at me, and i'm not there, the fight is
: : avoided. (Not fighting does not mean to just stand there and get
: : pounded to oblivion... :-)
: Oops, again...if a MAN swings...what about a womyn? Sexist..
Assuming you're serious here:
Please forgive me for not meeting politically correct standards. The
message written spoke in examples, and those examples indicated an
attacker of male gender. If it will make you feel better, replace all
of the he's and him's with left handed she's and her's from whatever
politically correct subject classification you would care to insert.
The message remains the same.
Peace.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Did somebody say keep on rockin'?" - Rick Derringer
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_ /|
Jef Veatch \'o.O'
=(___)=
jvea...@eng.eds.com U
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Krystal Locke
>I was wondering when someone was going to come through with the correct
>meaning of the "fish".
>Rocky
Hey, Rocky, Joan Tine had the most correct and complete explanation of
the fish, find her article to be truly educated and illuminated,,,
Krystal
Rick Cook
>That would make a cool design. four pink triangles joined like a
>chrysanthemum, for a dojo logo.
>Jeff
>
Nice concept. In fact, I like the idea. I know a couple of the Christian
ones around here do it.
Okay. . . Now let's see what mons we can come up with for other
orientations. Say, a mon for a dojo for Rush Limbaugh dittoheads. Or. . .
--RC
Andrew P. Holguin
study on, which expounded the virtues of womanhood, and exorted and
chastised men for not giving them the respect divinly apportiond to them.
Also, check out JUDGES, really cool stuff I've been reading, which has
been massively reinforced by my reading of the Gorin-No-Sho (methinks
thats close...)
yadda yadda yadda.
=:-]
Mike Zettle
Hay this guy answered the original post!!
whats going on here :)
Raphael Veit
Joan Tine <jo...@snugbug.cts.com> wrote:
<much deletia... talk of "fish"...>
>Uh...it wasn't a "masonic" sign at the time of the early Christians...
>unless Jacques de Molay had a time hopper:).
Even then one would have to believe the questionable history of the freemasons
to believe there was an actual link between themselves and the templars...:)
>The fish symbol is _much_ older than that. It was used by the cults
>of Ishtar in Babylon, but with a _vertical_ orientation, since the
>symbol was a glyph of the vagina, appropriate to Goddess worship, and
>as such, the first thing a patriarchic cult needed to steal and
>rehabilitate as they re-wrote the cosmological story of creation to
>make it pro-male. (Beggar the question of how a male god gives
>birth...it's a Mystery, we don't question it, and Cardinal Fang will
>deal with dissent.)
A "male" god? I believe that depends how much one decides to misread the
existance of one particular sex into spiritual beings (which is a fault of
both patriachal religions and feminist revisionism :)
>(The only scientists around in days following (as Christianity began
>to consolidate its political base), the Muslims, ignored the whole
>ignorant, syphilitic gaggle. We burned their books and cities, halted
>the development of _their_ civilization, and converted Islam from the
>most open, cosmopolitain, and accepting of faiths into an intolerant
>and militant religion. Had they not needed to get tough in self
>defense, we'd probably be dealing with Muslim hippies today. In any
>event, the viciousness of the Christians' need to re-write the story
>of their origins manifested as suppression of knowledge from the
>outset, masked as "encouraging concern for salvation, and disregard
>for the sinful material world", and plunged the world into centuries
>of darkness and disease, all in the name of Christ.)
An interesting piece of new-age, politically correct revisionism... Islam
has its own reactionary branches which are not simply a product of the
Christian Crusades (not that this would justify either) - they would have
not survived the crusades without them.
Otherwise an informative post.
Again, however, we are leaving the boundaries of rec.ma with alot of
superfluous detail (much of which I was addressing ;)
Regards,
Raph.
(any problems, tough... it's early, I'm tired)
JKDConcept
newsgroup.
>Sorry, Shito-ryu is from the devil. So is choy li fut, back when
>Satan liked Chinese food. I guess we could say since all the martial
arts
>are from the devil, he's running quite a dojo down there...
>
>I'm a little worried too that this damn eastern philosophy
>is undermining our fine American Judaeo-Christian moral base, and it's
high
>time we recognize the founding fathers of this country all practised
>Christian judo and karate...
>
>Q.
Who is the idiot that wrote this reply? Where did the poster of that reply
learn about religion and the martial arts? As a point I thought Judo and
Karate(implying Japanese art) was a 20th century invention. How could the
USA founding fathers from 18th century(1700's) practice 20th century arts?
Brad Webb
It was a sarcastic response, not the the original post but to a followup.
bad jap movie accent on:
Please to understand sarcasm when heard.
bad jap movie accent off.
PS I didn't do it but I know who did :).
You ferengi you.
--
Brad Webb, reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (mine bounces)
Japan Shotokan Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.
Monty the Python
: Who is the idiot that wrote this reply? Where did the poster of that reply
: learn about religion and the martial arts? As a point I thought Judo and
: Karate(implying Japanese art) was a 20th century invention. How could the
: USA founding fathers from 18th century(1700's) practice 20th century arts?
It was sarcasm, dude....
Oz
--
******************************************************************************
Vandit Kalia | "Any fool can make a painting or sculpture.
503 HRE | But it takes a wise man to sell it"
(215) 417-7784 | - Wharton: The Fine Art of Business
Sys. Engg/Mgmt |--------------------------------------------------------
http://eniac.seas.upenn.edu/~vkalia/home.html
******************************************************************************
Katherine Jean Roberts
interesting threads, but this?
kara kj...@ra.msstate.edu
Katherine Jean Roberts
me pc has hit you.
kara
On 23 Aug 1995, Krystal Locke wrote:
> cra...@conan.ids.net (me) wrote:
> > What about if a womyn takes a swing at you? Damn christianity is sexist!
Katherine Jean Roberts
what?
kara kj...@ra.msstate.edu
Andrew F. Maddox
: Could someone enlighten me, what exactly is jodo? Is it like judo or
: what?
Nope, not judo. A Jo is, in Japanese, a short staff (about 4 feet? Is that
right?) So jo-do is, simply, enough, the art of using said weapon. More
than that, I don't really know (I play silat, and kali, mostly).
Mabuhay!
Andy
-----
"Fighting *is* cheating." -- Herman Suwanda
A missive from Andy Maddox, mad...@vetsclub.umd.edu
(Still webbed at <http://www.clark.net/pub/madsox>)
Frank E. Dang
>Could someone enlighten me, what exactly is jodo? Is it like judo or
>what?
>
Jodo...the way of the Jo...which is a short staff. In Aikido, the lenght is measured
from the ground to nipple...arm pit height,.
Julian M. Frost
>
> Could someone enlighten me, what exactly is jodo? Is it like judo or
> what?
It's a classical system using a staff (usually about 5 feet in
length) against a sword... so it's not really like judo or karate
at all!
Julian
--
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( | ARPA: crash!odaiko!jfr...@nosc.mil
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/ | PACKET: KC6NSE @ WA6BGS.#SOCA.CA.USA.NOAM
(____/ . Public Key for Encrypted Mail available on request.
QUARK
>From: jkdco...@aol.com (JKDConcept)
>Subject: Re: Christian martial artists
>The following was a reply someone made when a lady posted a note in the
>newsgroup.
>>Sorry, Shito-ryu is from the devil. So is choy li fut, back when
>>Satan liked Chinese food. I guess we could say since all the martial
>arts
>>are from the devil, he's running quite a dojo down there...
>>
>>I'm a little worried too that this damn eastern philosophy
>>is undermining our fine American Judaeo-Christian moral base, and it's
>high
>>time we recognize the founding fathers of this country all practised
>>Christian judo and karate...
>>
>>Q.
>Who is the idiot that wrote this reply? Where did the poster of that reply
>learn about religion and the martial arts? As a point I thought Judo and
>Karate(implying Japanese art) was a 20th century invention. How could the
>USA founding fathers from 18th century(1700's) practice 20th century arts?
>
That idiot is me. And after reading your reply to my post, sounds like you've
been in Idiotsville longer than I have.
Cheers,
Q.
THOMAS SHERMAN LALUMIERE
What I would like to know is where anybody would get the idea that Martial
Arts Philosophies and Judeo-Christian Ethics are incompatible. Meditating
on the Tao is not very different from reading Genesis or reading the
parables of Jesus and no different from reading the book of Proverbs. MA
philosophies do more to bolster the Judeo-Christian ethic than do most
Christian Churches in this country.
--
**********************************************************************
*-Thomas S. La Lumiere- |"I was born in the sign of water *
* Univ. of MD (Terps) | and it's there that I feel my best. *
* | The albatross and the whale *
* | they are my brothers." -Little River Band- *
**********************************************************************
nsco...@alpha.nsula.edu
there and enjoy it, but then i'm probably just another sexist christian. Of
course, if the woman happens to be my sensei, then i treat her just like a man,
I guess my competitive nature overrides my sexist nature sometimes.
-Jeff
-A born again bible thumping christian...and proud of it!
>
Frenchy
> You see, Thomas,
> The problem with all those evil Eastern philosophies, like Tao, and
> Shinto, etc., is that they weren't written in English, like our good ole
> bible was. How can any of us trust or argee with a furiner, specially a
> nip/chink/gook one? Do ya see our problem here?
> In many many cases, religious intolerance is a byproduct of racial
> intolerance, remember the white people quoting bible passages to justify
> oppression of black people? Is it really about their god's wishes, or
> their own discomfort with someone who seems to be radically different?
> Hmmm...
>
> Krystal
While this is true, it must be remembered that the Bible was not written
in English either. First it was Hebrew and then in Latin. When I
meditate on the Tao, I read it in English and then think it in English. A
true Martial Artist, and indeed a true Christian, couldn't care less what
language these things are in so long as the messages and lessons are
positive. Make sense?
Frenchy
-Thomas S. La lumiere
David Hanley
: What I would like to know is where anybody would get the idea that Martial
: Arts Philosophies and Judeo-Christian Ethics are incompatible. Meditating
: on the Tao is not very different from reading Genesis or reading the
: parables of Jesus and no different from reading the book of Proverbs. MA
: philosophies do more to bolster the Judeo-Christian ethic than do most
: Christian Churches in this country.
Eastern phiosophies usually look inward for improvement /
salvation, while western ones uaually look outward, to a king / god /
whatever. They are quite different, and I, personally, much prefer
the latter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Peter Robert Peterson
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.95090...@Ra.MsState.Edu>, Katherine Jean Roberts <kj...@ra.msstate.edu> writes:
|> what?
|>
|>
Not like judo at all. Jo is the Japanese word for an approximately
(depending on the style) 4 foot stick. Jodo is the "way" of the jo and
is a MA. The jo is also used very often in most Aiki. Kendo clubs are
another place where jodo can sometimes be found.
--
--Pete
prpe...@eos.ncsu.edu
Krystal Locke
>
>What I would like to know is where anybody would get the idea that Martial
>Arts Philosophies and Judeo-Christian Ethics are incompatible. Meditating
>on the Tao is not very different from reading Genesis or reading the
>parables of Jesus and no different from reading the book of Proverbs.
>-Thomas S. La Lumiere-
David Hanley
: While this is true, it must be remembered that the Bible was not written
: in English either.
Mediatate longer on the post you answered, porcupine.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David James Hanley, KSC--d...@lac.eecs.uic.edu -- C++, OOD, martial arts|
| Laboratory for advanced computing | My employer barely KNOWS me. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have to discreetely dispose of the body of christ.
Chad J. Landry
> Could someone enlighten me, what exactly is jodo? Is it like judo or
> what?
As previously mentioned, the jo is a short staff of approximately
four feet in length.
We practice Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo at our school. We also use the jo
for Aikido practice.
Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo is an art which originated during the time of
Miyamoto Musashi. (Legend has it that Musashi is the greatest swordsman
that ever lived.)
The story of the origin goes something like this:
Muso Gonosuke was a master of the bo staff. He sought out
Musashi for a duel, and Musashi, with his two swords, defeated
Gonosuke. Since Gonosuke fought so well with his bo, Musashi spared his
life and told him the equivalent of "Leave, and don't let me catch you
around here again!"
Gonosuke then went up into the mountains to meditate. During his
period of solitude a deity paid him a visit and told him that his stick
was too long. The deity then gave him the proper dimensions for the jo
and told him to go make one. When this weapon was made, the deity then
proceeded to teach Muso how to use it.
When he had received ample education in Jojutsu, Gonosuke found and
challenged Musashi to a rematch. Musashi was defeated in this duel, but
Gonosuke spared his life and they became friends.
Of course, this is a condensed version of the story, and I'm sure
that I don't have every detail of the story perfect. If anyone else has
anything to add or whatever, feel free to do so.
The modern martial art of Jodo, is a few select strikes, blocks,
and kata from the original Jojutsu.
Chad J Landry
Kim A Taylor
: The Jo is also studied by Iaido (sword drawing) practitioners; I know
: this is part of Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido.
It's not technically part of Muso Shinden Ryu, but the founder of MSR,
Nakayama Hakudo was an 8 dan in Iaido, Jodo and Kendo. As a result many
of the older MSR instructors also teach Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo. This jo is
an inch wide and just over 50 inches long (128 cm).
--
============================================================================
Kim Taylor Ask me about the U.G. Sword Arts School
kata...@uoguelph.ca July 15 to 26, 1996
alt email kta...@aps.uoguelph.ca Crafts, Martial Arts, Academics
Dept. Animal Science Join iai...@uoguelph.ca
U. of Guelph, Guelph Ontario Send to: LIST...@UOGUELPH.CA
Canada N1G 2W1 Command: SUBSCRIBE IAIDO-L yourname
============================================================================
Jeff Frane
Years ago, while living in Berkeley, I worked in a typesetting shop
that had some very interesting accounts. For some reason, we did a
lot of work for groups like Feminist Evangelicals (who spent all their
time arguing about Paul) and cult bashers. The latter group did some
very good investigative journalism on various cults, but their central
tenet was this: the only true path for human improvement is through
Jesus Christ. Period. Anything that promised improvement through
another path was bad. Period.
Martial arts were included in their list of cult groups. (So were the
Mormons, but only in the draft copies; in the finished, typeset list,
the Mormons were left off -- way too powerful to mess with,
apparently.)
Fundamentalists also have a big thing about something called Monism --
the idea that the Universe is all One. This is antithetical to their
belief in the separation of God from his Creation. So they have no
tolerance for monist beliefs such as Taoism.
--Jeff Frane
--Jeff Frane
"I am free only in so far as I recognize the humanity and respect the liberty of all the men surrond me."
--Bakunin
Jeff Frane
>While this is true, it must be remembered that the Bible was not written
>in English either. First it was Hebrew and then in Latin. When I
>meditate on the Tao, I read it in English and then think it in English. A
>true Martial Artist, and indeed a true Christian, couldn't care less what
>language these things are in so long as the messages and lessons are
>positive. Make sense?
Krystal was being ironic, I think. At any rate, much of the Bible
(such as the New Testament) was written in Greek, not Hebrew or Latin.
I *believe* the earlier portions were largely in Aramaic.
gerard....@nist.gov
(Frenchy) writes:
>While this is true, it must be remembered that the Bible was not written
>in English either. First it was Hebrew and then in Latin. When I
>meditate on the Tao, I read it in English and then think it in English. A
>true Martial Artist, and indeed a true Christian, couldn't care less what
>language these things are in so long as the messages and lessons are
>positive. Make sense?
Not all of it was written in Hebrew. There was a lot of Greek, as well. The
Latin bible came fairly late, if I remember correctly.
Gerry
Kim A Taylor
: Katherine Jean Roberts <kj...@ra.msstate.edu> writes:
: > Could someone enlighten me, what exactly is jodo? Is it like judo or
: > what?
OK I'll add a couple of things.
: As previously mentioned, the jo is a short staff of approximately
: four feet in length.
: We practice Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo at our school. We also use the jo
: for Aikido practice.
: Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo is an art which originated during the time of
: Miyamoto Musashi. (Legend has it that Musashi is the greatest swordsman
: that ever lived.)
He was pretty good, and is certainly the most well-known but as for being
the best that ever lived... we don't make those claims on r-m-a.
He was also pretty big.
: The story of the origin goes something like this:
: Muso Gonosuke was a master of the bo staff. He sought out
: Musashi for a duel, and Musashi, with his two swords, defeated
: Gonosuke.
It is usually assumed that Musashi used two swords in whatever story he
appears in. In fact he trained with two but used one most of the time,
I've only run into one story where he used two in a duel, and one where
he faced several opponents and pulled the second one out of desperation.
The Niten Ki, a biography, says Musashi used a stick to whack Muso over
the head in this confrontation.
There's also a reference somewhere to Muso going around with a coat
embroidered with the words "greatest martial artist alive" or some
such... some things never change ;-).
Since Gonosuke fought so well with his bo, Musashi spared his
: life and told him the equivalent of "Leave, and don't let me catch you
: around here again!"
: Gonosuke then went up into the mountains to meditate. During his
: period of solitude a deity paid him a visit and told him that his stick
: was too long. The deity then gave him the proper dimensions for the jo
: and told him to go make one. When this weapon was made, the deity then
: proceeded to teach Muso how to use it.
: When he had received ample education in Jojutsu, Gonosuke found and
: challenged Musashi to a rematch. Musashi was defeated in this duel, but
: Gonosuke spared his life and they became friends.
They were likely friends, I seem to recall being told that one got the
other a job at some point. There is also some dispute over whether the
second fight ever happened. We'll likely never know for sure unless we
can track down the first reference to the second fight and it goes
something like "if they had ever fought again, Muso would have won" with
the second reference then saying "they fought again and Muso won".
:
: Of course, this is a condensed version of the story, and I'm sure
: that I don't have every detail of the story perfect. If anyone else has
: anything to add or whatever, feel free to do so.
: The modern martial art of Jodo, is a few select strikes, blocks,
: and kata from the original Jojutsu.
: Chad J Landry
The Seitei Gata Jo which is the "representative forms of jo" that were
developed for the All Japan Kendo Federation is a set of forms from the
Shindo Muso Ryu. This could be called a modern art I suppose but the
forms are not different from the old school (koryu). The Shindo Muso Ryu
is still around and being taught in it's whole. You've just got to hunt
around a bit to find an instructor.
Those who are interested should contact their local Kendo federation and
ask them to organize a class. While you are at it ask them to organize an
iaido class too, point out that with all the extra students the
organization will get, they can afford to bring in an instructor to
teach. (Don't! tell them I told you to do this ;-), I'm usually in
enough trouble as it is.)
Kim
Krystal Locke
>
>While this is true, it must be remembered that the Bible was not written
>in English either. First it was Hebrew and then in Latin. When I
>meditate on the Tao, I read it in English and then think it in English. A
>true Martial Artist, and indeed a true Christian, couldn't care less what
>language these things are in so long as the messages and lessons are
>positive. Make sense?
>
>
>--
>-Thomas S. La Lumiere-
Umm, maybe originally Aramaic? I know their book wasn't written in
English, I was trying to make a point, using humor and sarcasm.
I was trying to make the exact same point you are trying to make, but in
a more round about fashion, and from an apparently different perspective.
That's all... :-)
Krystal
Krystal Locke
>
> Eastern phiosophies usually look inward for improvement /
>salvation, while western ones uaually look outward, to a king / god /
>whatever. They are quite different, and I, personally, much prefer
>the latter.
>
Hmm, that's a surprise, considering our previous convos... Care to
enlighten me in Email? I'm curious.
Krystal