Chung Moo Quan
JAHSTICKY
Quan school in my area---IL. If anyone has any experience or suggestions,
please EMail Jahs...@aol.com.
Nick Pavlidis
: I am interested in getting into the martial arts. There is a Chung Moo
: Quan school in my area---IL. If anyone has any experience or suggestions,
YES I have heard about Chung Moon Quan. It's called Chund Moon Doe in my area.
From what I've heard it's kinda like a cult. I;ve heard many people got realy
ripped off and that one guy lost his house in order to seek
greater martial truths. They also really try to control you, I know that
in the martial arts there has to be some discipline but these guys are
weird. Maybe it's just in our area but whenever I hear of those schools
no one has anything good to say.
Brad Webb
TIME for a repost:
Someone posted this (Mary Malmros, that was you, wasn't it??? :)
Read and draw your own conclusions.
============================================================================
Source: October 26 issue of the Boston Phoenix
Author: Ric Kahn
Summary: Watch for the classic warning signs of cult extremism in this
well known case study.
----------------------------------------------
CHUNG MOONIES?
Critics call martial-arts club a cult of violence and greed
By Ric Kahn
When John quit the Chung Moo Quan school in Stoneham after six
months, he says, school officials bothered him at home and harangued him
at work. "You have to come back. You have to do it for yourself, for your
mind, for your body. This isn't just a martial art. This is life. You
have to do this. We're not going to let you go. We know your address,
your phone number. we have your license plate."
But big John, a blue collar guy in his thirties who lives north of
Boston, wouldn't be bullied.
He'd signed on in 1987 because he wanted a place to work out
during the day, and the Stoneham storefront was near his home. At the time,
he says, he was emotionally drained. He was working two jobs. His father
had just passed away. According to the profile painted by ex-members of
the national Chung Moo Quan organization, John was perfect bait.
They filled his head with prime talk: "You have to do this for
yourself. This is the most important thing in your life." But everything
seemed to revolve around the prime rate. "They emphasized staying healthy",
says John, "but each class they'd pressure you for money."
When one of the young students didn't have his money, John saw them
jump all over his case. "What's wrong with you?" If you paid your money,
he says, you were heaped with praise, no matter how poorly you performed.
John says he ponied up $1500 during his time there. Cold cash. No
receipts. When he asked for some documentation of payment, he says, he was
told; "It's all trust here."
John says, "In the back of my head, I said 'IRS.'"
So have lots of other people. In fact, the organization -- skilled
enough at the public relations game for its Newton school to cop a citation
for community service from Governor William Weld last spring -- has come
under increasing scrutiny for the way it handles its money and its members.
Consider:
o Chung Moo Doe, a/k/a Chung Moo Quan, has been the target of an
investigation by IRS agents in Chicago and Houston. In the summer
of 1990, agents seized records and other evidence during raids on
seven schools, an apartment, a farm in Illinois, and a ranch in
Texas. Though government officials refused to discuss any aspect
of the probe, sources say in centered on whether Chung Moo
reported its cash transactions. William Rivkin, public-affairs
specialist for the IRS in Chicago, says, "We can't confirm or
deny an ongoing investigation."
o Chung Moo may also be under investigation by another arm of the
feds, the FBI. Echoing Rivkin, Agent Bob Long, spokesman for the
Chicago FBI office, says, "We can neither confirm or deny an active
investigation."
o The Illinois attorney general's office has filed suit against
Master John C Kim and his employees seeking to shut down his
schools, charging consumer fraud and coercion.
o According to a TV report, the Texas attorney general may be
investigating the Chung Moo organization. When contacted by the
Phoenix, a spokesman for the AG would say only, "We're aware of
them."
The Phoenix made repeated, unsuccessful attempts to obtain a
statement from the Chung Moo national organization and to contact lawyers
who've represented John C. Kim.
Ex-members and mind-control experts claim Chung Moo Doe, which
pushes the virtues of a strong body and balanced mind, is in fact a
powerful and destructive cult that employs beatings and thought control
techniques to break their members' will -- and their piggy banks.
Capitalizing on physical fitness faddism, former members say, Chung Moo Doe
sucks newcomers into an upwardly swirling spiral of outrageously expensive
courses and tests that have cost some students as much as $50,000 in
greenbacks. (According to ex-members, Chung Moo Doe traffics in cash only,
please -- supposedly out of respect for Master Kim, as this is how business
is conducted in Asia.) Chung Moo Doe instructors are said to push students
to the point of hypnotic exhaustion through intensive workouts and a
regimen of repetitive movements. Once in this vulnerable state, members
are pressured to sell their prized possessions to pay off their burgeoning
bills and to sign up for the next course on the way up the high-priced
Chung Moo ladder.
But even more than picking their pockets, ex-members say, Chung Moo
Doe had fleeced their souls. The group was so subservient to Master Kim,
they say, that members were forced to converse with higher ups in the
broken English of their Korean superleader. The male dominated martial
arts group, they say, controlled the essence of their lives, everything
from making love -- only once a week per order of Master, lest the evil
spirits of women seep inside you and make you weak -- to making war:
loyalty, says one ex-member, was tested through the challenge "Higher belts
would take a bullet for Master. Would you?"
"you become a robot, brainwashed, "says one ex-member who was in
the group for almost 10 years. "You become a Chung Moonie."
"By providing the means for our citizens to understand the
importance of a strong mind and body, the ultimate goal of ... this
Constitution can be realized," reads the "Provisional Chung Moo Doe
Constitution", the handbook of the movement. "This goal is to see the
others learn and understand right justice. As their minds and bodies
improve with proper training, the right judgment they learn can benefit
their families, businesses, and living conditions. As whole communities
begin to benefit, it will lead to a better standard of living for all, and
ultimately, a stronger United States."
Chung Moo Doe purports to be a 1500 year old royal line of martial
arts, eight different practices rolled into one. In an investigative
series aired in 1989 by the CBS affiliate in Chicago, Pam Zekman reported
the Chung Moo schools were founded in the Windy City in the late 70's by
John C. Kim, whom she identified as a former maintenance worker. The group
reportedly operates in Minnesota, Illinois, Texas, and Massachusetts, among
other states, with Greater Boston storefronts in Arlington, Burlington,
Newton, Dedham, Stoneham, and Braintree. Ex-members say instructors
shuttle back and forth between cities, indoctrinating students with the
message of Master Kim.
"From my experience, it fulfills all the criteria of a destructive
cult," says Steven Hassan, an ex-Moonie from Boston who's an exit counselor
and the author of "Combating Cult Mind Control". He rattles them off: a
pyramid structure, a leader who has complete power and who claims
paranormal abilities, the use of deception and mind control.
"People are induced into altered states of consciousness through a
variety of means," says Hassan, who's talked with ex-members. "sleep
deprivation, dietary manipulation, long repetitive, monotonous exercises
that induce a state of trance. Phobia indoctrination, by painting the
outside world to be even more malevolent than it already is."
"Based on what former members say, I consider them a destructive
cult," says Cynthia Kisser, executive director of the Chicago-based Cult
Awareness Network, who reports receiving at least a dozen complaints about
the organization over the last year.
To me it's a business cult," says Joe Szimhart, a cult-information
specialist and exit counselor from New Mexico who's worked with former
Chung Moo followers and has heard tales of physical, verbal, and
psychological abuse. "Kim has devised a system which uses undue influence
to bring instructors ... and students ... up the ranks at high prices."
"I think they're dangerous because they have a hidden agenda: to
drain people's bank accounts and control their lives," says Szimhart.
In her Chicago TV report, Pam Zekman cited what an unrighteous rip-
off Chung Moo appeared to be: $$10,000 to $15,000 for a black belt course;
$15,000 to $20,000 for an Olympic course; and $20,000 to $30,000 for an
instructors course.
By comparison, Pat Worley, who owns the U.S. Karate schools in the
Minneapolis-St. Paul area, told the Phoenix that a typical black belt
program ought to run between $1500 and $3000. The most he's ever heard
anyone outside Chung Moo Doe charging for a martial-arts deal was about
$5000 for a lifetime membership.
In 1989, after receiving complaints from students, the Illinois
attorney general hit Kim and his Chung Moo minions with a consumer-fraud
action. In her 1991 amended complaint, which is still pending, Assistant
Attorney General Lynn Worley alleged that Chung Moo agents failed to
disclose to students their total financial obligation; refused to provide
copies of contracts; and charged in excess of $2500 per year for services --
all in violation of the state's Physical Fitness Act.
In an interview, Worley said the course prices seemed to vary
depending upon how deep the student's pockets were. "it was just a
question of how much they could get out of you," she said. "One guy paid
off $18,000 for an instructor's course and they still wouldn't give him his
first-degree black belt. They'd given it to him on probation -- they
wanted him to bring in more money."
Furthermore, in her complaint, Worley alleges that "defendants,
their agents and employees used coercion and coercive sale techniques,
including but not limited to, yelling at students, punching and kicking
students."
Chung Moo strong-arming also appears to be a local menace. In May
1988, according to a 1989 civil suit filed in Cambridge District Court,
Will Smith-Vaniz, of Waltham, enrolled in a $5000 "Olympic" course at the
Chung Moo Quan school in Arlington (now Chung Moo Doe). According to his
complaint, Smith-Vaniz ;plunked down $5000 in cash and within a month
another $250 as part of his $250-a-month-for-16-months paymet schedule.
He said he got no receipt. No copy of his contract.
Prior to the Olympic course, he said, he'd already been on track
for the one-half black-belt course, for which he'd put down a $500 deposit
plus $200 a month. But he said the school told him he could slide through
the black belt course and move on to Olympic.
Then, Smith-Vaniz said in his complaint, the school wanted him to
pump up his monthly payments from $250 to $500 and to get them in earlier
than stipulated in his contract. In July 1988, he said he asked the
school's instructor for a copy of his contract. The instructor apparently
didn't gently hand one over. According to Smith-Vaniz, the instructor
responded by grabbing his windpipe and asking: "How would you like to die
right now?"
In court papers, the school denied the charges.
The lawsuit, which sought monies owed and damages, was reportedly
settled out of court last year. Attorneys involved in the case declined to
discuss it when contacted by the Phoenix.
It was more than the flow of money out of his wallet, and the fact
that the school seemed to be waving him on to the next course for a fee,
when he felt he;d hardly mastered the previous one, that was bothering Big
John. "It was terrible," he says now. "Lies. Intimidation. Constant
pressure ... I knew i had to get the hell out of there. It was getting
spooky."
There was the ritualistic passing of the cash, bowing and holding
it between the palms. There was the Pidgin English. "Right to pay money?"
Or, "Right to ask question?"
Steve Hassan calls it loaded language, on of the signs of a cult in
action. "Words are the tools we use to think," he says. "If you can
control the words, you can control the way people think."
John, an ex-Marine, simply calls it "brainwashing."
There were also the banquets, social gatherings for Chung Moo
students, family members, and friends, for which members were expected to
bring to food and fork over an admission fee. With all the hoopla
surrounding Master John C. Kim, Big John was disappointed the guy didn't
even show at his own party.
Some members could be forgiven if they half-expected Kim to fly in --
sans airplane. After all, many said they;d been told of how Master could
jump off a seven-story building and float to the ground, part of the
messianic portrait of Kim promulgated by the Chung Moo movement. Or about
the time he'd walked on water. Or that he was the retired martial arts
champion of all Asia, a title critics doubt even exists. Or that Bruce Lee
had been a Chung Moo member but was assassinated by a Kim minion -- a long-
distance psychic hit, to be precise -- for divulging secrets. Or that Kim
had once died and come back to Earth. That he had a psychic third eye,
could read minds. That he had tremendous healing powers and could even
cure AIDS.
Yet Master Kim apparently never lifted a finger to help out one of
his young followers in Minneapolis, Russell Johnson.
Russell Johnson almost died under the influence of Chung Moo Quan.
He'd joined back in 1980 as a 16 year-old all pumped up after watching a
Chuck Norris movie. He left in 1983, came back in '85. And when he
returned, he says, they successfully sold him a $10,000 black belt course:
$500 down and $200 a month.
Johnson by then had a good factory job and a sweet maroon Trans Am,
with a red crushed-velvet interior and all the options. Johnson says the
Chung Moo Higher belts started working on him, suggesting he sell the car
so he could pay off his contract faster. That one day he'd be an
instructor making so much money he could afford as many Trans Ams as he
wanted.
Johnson had looked up the school's instructor. He could move like
on one he'd ever seen before. And he'd helped him get away from drugs. "I
wanted to be like him," he says now. "Nice clothes. The appearance that
life is totally together."
Johnson owed too much on the Trans Am. So the bank repo'd it and
he shoveled the money back to the school.
Next, he says, he sold off his $1300 stereo to pay for test fees.
Every time you move up in rank, he says, you have to take a test and pay a
fee. The instructor continued to work on his head, he says, telling him
that when they were at his level they didn't have anything but a couple
pairs of jeans.
Like other students, he says, he was fed a variegated diet of praise
and pulverization. There was the carrot: feeding him stories about how one
day he'd run his own show. And the stick: a bamboo one, he says, that an
instructor whacked him with while telling him how weak he was and why
didn't he quit right then and there. After hours of workouts, practicing
the same forms over and over, he says, he'd be brought into the office and
lectured about how he needed to improve himself by bringing more money and
by practicing hard.
Johnson says when he and his Chung Moo roommate were told that
another student whom they both despised was moving in with them, he obliged.
"You didn't question your higher belt," he says.
When Kim's birthday and Christmas rolled around, he says, you were
expected to ante up cash, $100 minimum. Like a sect of superstition freaks,
you were expected to abide by the Chung Moo rituals. Like, he says, "never
walk in front of your higher belt" and "never hand something over a corner
of a desk" and "always sleep east-west" One time, says Johnson, he was
awakened at 3 a.m. by an instructor who told him his bed was facing the
wrong direction and that evil spirits from the north would enter his mind.
Johnson drained his water bed and moved it around.
By 1987, as a first degree assistant instructor, Johnson was
learning how to run a school. He says the head instructor would have him
conduct "sideways conversations" with new students, reporting back to him
on how much money they had in the bank and what kind of car they drove.
On a Friday night in May of 1987, Johnson was left in charge of a
Chung Moo Quan school in Minneapolis. The head instructor had left him a
note of things to do. But the note was facing away from the desk, and
Johnson felt the note was personal and not for his eyes. H believed he was
strictly obeying Chung Moo rules by not going to the instructors side of
the desk.
On Monday, he says, the instructor ordered him to drop down and do
100 circular motion knuckle push-ups and 25 minutes of blocks and attacks.
Then he called him into the office. After hearing his explanation, Johnson
says, he was told he handled things correctly.
But that night, he couldn't sleep. His arms had swelled like hot
dogs. The next day at school, his arms hurt so badly he had to lay his
food out on the table and move his head down to eat it. That night, no
sleep again. His arms grew pale and felt like they were about to explode.
The next day at school, they tried accupressure without luck and told him to
hang in there until a national instructor could see him two days later.
That night, unable to sleep, and with his kidneys aching like a
pounding anvil, he decided to go to the hospital to get some sleeping pills
and muscle-relaxers to hold him over until the national instructor could
see him.
But the doctors wouldn't let him leave. They said so much blood
had been pumped into his arms that it was trapped there and had stopped
flowing. If he waited until Friday he could suffer permanent kidney damage.
If his kidneys shut down completely, he'd die.
The docs wanted to do an emergency operation. But Johnson says he
was so into Chung Moo Quan, which preached the dangers of mainstream
medicine, that he wouldn't sign the release form until his school okayed it.
He figured maybe they'd come and rescue him. But sensing trouble, he says,
the school gave the go-ahead for the medical work.
After 16 days in the hospital, and surgery that left his arms
scarred, Johnson was released on Saturday and returned to school on Monday.
Incredibly, it wasn't to quit -- he wanted to go back to work. Chung Moo,
says Johnson, had for years been breeding within him an inside-versus-
outside mentality. "I was afraid I couldn't handle a normal lifestyle," he
says.
But over the next year, the abnormalities of the Chung Moo movement
began to filter into his consciousness. He heard the stories about the
wuss with the arm problems who went to the hospital for help instead of the
school. He was working two jobs to pay off his courses, which he says had
a cumulative price tag of $15,000 to $20,000. And he's been working at the
school for five, six hours a day without pay. And now some instructor, a
kid he'd grown up with, was jerking him around because he could only post
75 instead of his usual 150 Chung Moo flyers during his regular Saturday
free-labor stint.
After the guy made him do 30 pushups when he'd been led to believe
Master Kim had decreed he'd no longer have to do them, Johnson went home
and boiled over.
The next day, he called the school from work. "Be all right to ask
if there is anything I can do for school?" he inquired in the regulation
Pidgin English. "Be all right to ask if yourself care for anything? Be
all right to step into school right now?"
After the instructor told him it was okay to come in, Johnson
slammed down the phone. In a split second, like a dark shade suddenly
snapping open, he began to see the light. "I can't have the people lead my
life." he said to himself. "They controlled my emotions like a dog."
He never stepped foot in that school again.
Today Russell Johnson's arms still burn from time to time. But his
psyche aches even more when he thinks about the severe case of what he
calls "toxic faith" that manifested itself during his unholy hospital stay.
"I was willing to die for those people," Russell Johnson says now.
"I thought [in the hospital] that if they [Chung Moo instructors] do take
me out of there, and it doesn't work out and I do die ... maybe they'll
bury me in my uniform."
Reference Boston Pheonix, Oct 26, (1992?).
====================================================================
end repost, any spelling/grammer errors are accidental and who cares anyway?
--
B. Webb, Dallas, Tx.|B. Webb, Specialist. |NT doesn't claim my opinions,
Japan Shotokan |Northern Telecom,Inc.|I don't claim their opinions,
(214) 231-4922 |(214) 684-1737. |and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Std disclaimer: Blah Blah Blah!
Seek perfection of character.
Nick Pavlidis
: TIME for a repost:
: CHUNG MOONIES?
: By Ric Kahn
You know what the scary thing is!!! all those schools in MA are still in business. It's beyond belief!
-Nick
ham...@meena.cc.uregina.ca
If it is latter, I say yes try it out.
As for martial arts cults, yeh they exist... but by th elooks o things you guys
are a ways away from each other.... doubtful it would be same group.... not even same name.... ATS, Tae Kwon Do schools that keep to original styles have many
things to offer that one would not find in regular TKD school (sport ma).
Give it a go and let us know what happened and how it wenrt/// or call first andget some info on the school if you are extremely apprehensive.....
Cheer,
James Hamelin
Shiv Swarup Pathak
Nick Pavl...@netope.har
> no one has anything good to say.
>
In my area too. Stay away from them. Teachers are poor in every
respect (except for sales). Students are generally misguided, as as a
result, poor (both financially and in skill).
Shiv
Nick Pavlidis
: |-----------------|Nick Pavlidis wrote:
: NP>
: NP>JAHSTICKY (jahs...@aol.com) wrote:
: NP>: I am interested in getting into the martial arts. There is a Chung Moo
: NP>: Quan school in my area---IL. If anyone has any experience or suggestion
: NP>I
: NP>YES I have heard about Chung Moon Quan. It's called Chund Moon Doe in my
: NP>From what I've heard it's kinda like a cult. I;ve heard many people got r
: NP>ripped off and that one guy lost his house in order to seek
: NP>greater martial truths. They also really try to control you, I know that
: NP>in the martial arts there has to be some discipline but these guys are
: NP>weird. Maybe it's just in our area but whenever I hear of those schools
: NP>no one has anything good to say.
: |-------------------------------------|
: I was originally going to avoid posting on this issue, since
: the only things that I have heard of the Chung Moo Do chain in
: my area (Houston, TX) have been negative. But I can't help
: noticing that the same type of stories have popped up in Nick's
: part of the country. Makes you wonder if there's not some truth
: to the issue, eh?
: Anyone else know anything about Chung Moo Do?
: ... Blessed are the meek, for they are easier to control.
: ---
: * TLX v4.00 *
: ---
: ş SLMR 2.1a ş
Yeah it's interesting that they say each school is independent of each
other. Since one of the schools is nearby my house it's amazing that
there are still open for business with a good amount of students
in that school. Since this discussion has started I'll add in my
2 cents. When I was in junior high I stopped in to inquire about the
school and I was waiting with 3 other kids(they looked like grade school
kids) the instructor came out they bowed to the teacher. Since it was
my first time in a martial arts school I didn;t know I had to bow to
him but hell! I was not even a student of the school. The instuctor asked
how long I was studing there and I told him I was inquiring about the school
and he started yelling at me for not bowing to him. Those other students
just looked at me and smiled. It's very weird. I dunno if he was in
a bad mood but he lost a new student!! My current teacher has been training
in the boston area for some time and knows the martial arts scene of that area
and we were talking about different schools in the area and Chund Moo Do was
mentioned and he said that the school was a cult. We have had some students
come in for introductory lessions scanning for the right school and they were
telling us that they left CMD after a few weeks for various reasons. When
I was in that school it was not right it felt very weird being in there.
I guess I'll say that I made the right decision not to join but from reading
that news post I'm really glad that I didn't join.
-Nick
Mark Urbin
The major complaints about these schools have to do with their business
practices. Cash only, "I want to show you this technique, but you have
not paid for that program", schools opening and closing and reopening under
a slightly different name in a relatively quick fashion, no reciepts given,...
The list goes on.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin DEC VIIS QA
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Brackett
Jeff Brackett
NP>
NP>: NP>: Quan school in my area---IL. If anyone has any experience or sugge
NP>: NP>I
NP>: NP>YES I have heard about Chung Moon Quan. It's called Chund Moon Doe i
NP>: NP>From what I've heard it's kinda like a cult. I;ve heard many people
NP>: NP>ripped off and that one guy lost his house in order to seek
NP>: |-------------------------------------|
NP>
NP>: I was originally going to avoid posting on this issue, since
NP>: the only things that I have heard of the Chung Moo Do chain in
NP>: my area (Houston, TX) have been negative. But I can't help
NP>in that school. Since this discussion has started I'll add in my
NP>2 cents. When I was in junior high I stopped in to inquire about the
NP>school and I was waiting with 3 other kids(they looked like grade school
NP>kids) the instructor came out they bowed to the teacher. Since it was
|-------------------------------------|
Well I'll probably get flamed for posting this, but what
the hell. I will say at the very beginning that this is a
story that I heard second hand from a source that I trust.
Of course that means nothing to the rest of you, and I don't
expect anyone to judge the veracity of the story on that.
Just consider it a rumor. <g>
An old instructor of mine and a fellow BB in another school
went to one of the CMD schools when it first opened in the area.
At that time, it was called Chung Moo Quan. The two of them went
in to see if they could spar with some of the instructors and
exchange techniques. As I understand it, this is a fairly common
occurrance. They were told that they would first have to fill out
a liability release, "since CMD instructors are so skilled". They
thought this a little unusual, as well as a bit vain, but somewhat
understandable considering Houston's sue happy atmosphere. They
agreed and as soon as the signatures were on the paper they were
attacked from behind by four of the onlookers wielding sticks.
My instructor said that he and his partner basically got the crap
beaten out of them before they had a chance to turn around.
Needless to say, my instructor does not tell this story often.
It is part of his lessons in humility, overconfidence, and trust
lesson in the advanced classes. Many people would expect that he
and his friend would turn and soundly thrash the villains. I get
the impression that HE felt that they should have somehow won the
encounter, as many of you reading this probably will. I don't.
Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.
Just wanted to share another CMD tidbit.
jlb
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
ChangMooK
you or anyone else around here of that style? I have been a member since
1972 and practice boths the original and WTF hyungs. Always interested in
developing a discussion of the historical aspects of this art.
Gene
ChangMooK
Master Soo Kim whom is well respected. Chung Moo Doe in Houston is
probably the same as what is up in Altamonte, Florida.
One of my students gave me a huge booklet advertising a master in
Altamonte that is the best in Chung Moo Doe. It sounded very cult-like
because it kept repeating the masters name over and over. It did advertise
a 2 year "Black Belt" program for $5,500.00. When I got to that point, I
trashed it.
Sir Robert Charles
I started studying Chang Moo Kwan in 1970. I'm curious as to what you mean
when you refer to the "original" hyungs. I practiced the WTF hyungs for
a while when I studied under a Chang Moo Kwan who belonged to the WTF, but
after having spent so many years practicing the ITF forms, I found it difficult
to get into them.
As for historical aspects of the art, I know very little other than what I've
read, but I could share that much with you sometime if it would be useful.
Rob
ChangMooK
replace them by order of Lee Nam Suk. These would include the Pyung Ahn,
Chulgi, and Passai style forms.
The history aspect is a brief one. I believe I have read about everything
out there, which isn't much. I'm sure you have read the same. Have you
read the official Chang Moo Kwan history text? Master Lee still has a few
he told me.
Gene
Tom Osborn
One need to distinguish carefully between "Chung Moo Doe" of the Iron Kim
lineage - reputedly a cult, and the Korean Kwan "Chang Moo Kwan" which was
founded in 1946 and is still going strong.
Tom Osborn.
Jeff Brackett
ąŢąFrom: osb...@socs.uts.EDU.AU (Tom Osborn)
ąŢąchan...@aol.com (ChangMooK) writes:
ąŢą
ąŢąOne need to distinguish carefully between "Chung Moo Doe" of the Iron Kim
ąŢąlineage - reputedly a cult, and the Korean Kwan "Chang Moo Kwan" which was
ąŢąfounded in 1946 and is still going strong.
ąŢą
ąŢąTom Osborn.
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Tom,
When the Chung Moo Doe schools here in Houston opened,
I believe they used the name Chung Moo Quan. After only
a short time, they changed the name to Chun Moo Doe. Was
there a legal problem with the name similarities?
jlb
őî á. JEFF.B...@AMEGA.COM
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ţ őî á. ţ Cat (KAT') n. Small mammal with an attitude problem.
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ţ SLMR 2.1a ţ
Shiv Swarup Pathak
Chan...@aol.com
> I agree. My style is the 1946 Chang Moo Kwan. Absolutely nothing to do
> with the other group.
>
That's good. I chuckle everytime I recall my meetings with the students
and teachers from the local and not-so-local Choong Moo Doe. I hoped
the problems with the "art" I experienced was isolated to the local
school right here in Pittsburgh, Until I saw the school in NYC.
Sometimes I wonder how anyone would ever wanted to sign a contract after
talking and discussing technique with *those* teachers. Sheeeesh.
chuckle
Shiv
ChangMooK
enough from me so I don't worry about them.
Later, Gene
SKELM
separate from and I expect that anyone with a similar name will face a
lawsuit.
-not a cult member, but a student of the arts