Martialhub.com - For all your martial arts addresses
Alex
filipino, western martial arts and Capoeira.
Alex
--
For martial arts links see http://www.martialhub.com/
Karate, Taekwondo, Filipino, Indonesian, and Indo-Chinese martial arts
Pukulan, Pencak Silat, Kuntao and Shaolin Kempo: the
biggest linkpage for the Indonesian and Chinese-Indonesian
martial arts on the web
http://www.geocities.com/vandeelen/Pukulan/
Bookmark this page for future reference.
JM
Well who ever put this site together sure doesn't know much about martial
arts. Okinawan karate is not from Japan, it's from China. Okinawa was
invaded by Japan.
Chas
know much about martial
> arts. Okinawan karate is not from Japan, it's from China.
More likely from Sumatra- an easier voyage, and made much earlier than any
influence from China.
Chas
story
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"JM" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:n6keb.379497$2x.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> Well who ever put this site together sure doesn't know much about martial
> arts. Okinawan karate is not from Japan, it's from China. Okinawa was
> invaded by Japan.
>
Hey it's at least in the right part of the world! I've seen it far worse.
............Tom.....................
story
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"Chas" <ch...@chasclements.com> wrote in message
news:XfGdnUcyF5l...@comcast.com...
Sorry Chas but the Chinese connection is even documented in this case. The
current head of Goju ( meibukan lineage ) is even descended from one of the
36 families who came to live in Okinawa as part of a cultural exchange many
many years ago. Miyagi Chogun and his teacher both talked about their
studies in China. Beyond this things get hazy & who knows but when you
examine such things as kata you can find earlier forms of many Goju kata in
China and Shorin Ryu claim Shaolin as their progenitor with Shorin as an
Okinawan version of Shaolin. ( their claim not mine ) Of course the fact
that Shorin ryu also comes from the city of Shuri is another explanation of
the name but they make no bones themselves about the Chinese derivation of
their art. That leaves only the Tomarite (SP?) style of karate. this was
virtually wiped out in WW2 so much knowledge was lost. Most of what remains
is under the auspices of the Shorin Ryu group but as you can imagine there
isn't a whole lot of history left now. All the people that really knew were
killed.
...........................Tom......................
Chas
> > More likely from Sumatra- an easier voyage, and made much earlier than
any
> > influence from China.
> Sorry Chas but the Chinese connection is even documented in this case. The
> current head of Goju ( meibukan lineage ) is even descended from one of
the
> 36 families who came to live in Okinawa as part of a cultural exchange
many
> many years ago.
You're talking decades, I'm talking centuries, if not millennia.
The basis for 'te' is far more likely to be Sumatran art than much of
anything else, just because of the preponderance of malay influence on
Okinawa- as opposed to China. People have been sailing along the island
chain for as much as 8,000 years- far easier that the trip to Mainland China
at that point.
Chas
Richard Carlucci
> Over **1000** martial arts links - japanese, korean, chinese, indonesian,
> filipino, western martial arts and Capoeira.
>
> http://www.martialhub.com/
I was very disappointed by this site. It's outdated links, a poor
setup once you get past the intro page, and not terribly well
organized/presented. It looks like it's nothing more than a re-hash of
all the same links pages many of us have seen time and again. And it's
not even a comprehensive re-hashing; they have 1000 martial arts links
for all of the arts represented... If the site is even half serious,
they should have at LEAST 1000 links for EACH art itself, and all of
them current and up to date, and much better organized. You could get
1000 links overall just by linking to the various governing bodies and
organizations for all of these martial arts, nevermind pages that are
training resources, club homepages, etc...
All in all, martialhub.com is rather disappointing.
tkd7...@hotmail.com
If you want to be a winner, all you have to give is everything you've
got.
Alex
news:n6keb.379497$2x.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Well, whoever is criticizing this page doesn't know much about
martial arts.
Okinawan Karate is not from China, it is, as the name suggests,
from Okinawa. A person with some brains could suggest that
Okinawan Karate has some roots in the Kung Fu of mainland
China or even Taiwan (Ngo Cho Kun, Bai He Quan, etc.), however
Okinawan Karate would still be from Okinawa.
The reason it is grouped under "Japan", is that Okinawa was
occupied by Japan, Okinawan Karate is at the root of Japanese
Karate, and that it didn's make sense to make a separate page
for the martial arts from Okinawa. Not yet anyway, maybe
when there are more links up.
Alex
"Richard Carlucci" <tkd7...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:fba10c69.03093...@posting.google.com...
> "Alex" <avdeele...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:<3f779125$0$28905$1b62...@news.euronet.nl>...
> > Over **1000** martial arts links - japanese, korean, chinese, indonesian,
> > filipino, western martial arts and Capoeira.
> >
> > http://www.martialhub.com/
> If the site is even half serious,
> they should have at LEAST 1000 links for EACH art itself, and all of
> them current and up to date, and much better organized.
Why don't you lead by example and build one yourself. :-)
Even better, maintain one, without giving up your dayjob.
Chas
> Why don't you lead by example and build one yourself. :-)
> Even better, maintain one, without giving up your dayjob.
No shit, Alex.
You do a hell of a job- particularly in the SEAsian arts. Your page is the
one that I most often cite for people to get information on kuntao, silat
and associated arts. Your historical stuff is cited as authoritative,
particularly as regards the Dutch Indonesian community.
Excellent effort, and we thank you for it.
--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/silatknifefighting.htm
Badger South
Speaking of historical info, Chas, are you aware of a
practitioner of silat named John Ritter? (I'm not sure of the
first name)
If so do you have his basic lineage or any info on him. I
searched the 'Net, but don't see anything, but thought you
might know of him.
Thx! ;-)
-B
Chas
> Speaking of historical info, Chas, are you aware of a
> practitioner of silat named John Ritter? (I'm not sure of the
> first name)
Doesn't ring a bell, but that's no indication of anything. I'm familiar with
some people from some lineages, but totally ignorant of others.
Chas
Badger South
OK, thanks. His name was mentioned as the person whom BL
trained with in silat. Given the large number of typos in the
book (Hartsell's JKD Grappling), he may have misspelled it or
something.
Certainly gives more credence to the thought that BL was
familiar with that art. However, back in the late 60s, who
knows what was passed off as silat. I thought if I could verify
the name as a top student of one of the major branches it would
nail that down. ;-)
-B
Chas
> OK, thanks. His name was mentioned as the person whom BL
> trained with in silat.
Oh; William Reeders- sorry.
He was a kuntao and silat expert- very well known and respected. His lineage
student is Arthur Sikes out of Albuquerque. I understand his son takes some
few students, but I don't know more about him than that.
I think that Carl Spitale studied with Reeders, and maybe Guy Savelli too-
some people studied with him and with Willy Wetzel, so it's sometimes hard
to delineate the lineages.
> Certainly gives more credence to the thought that BL was
> familiar with that art. However, back in the late 60s, who
> knows what was passed off as silat. I thought if I could verify
> the name as a top student of one of the major branches it would
> nail that down. ;-)
Reeders is probably the pre-eminent person of his time. He was 'royalty' on
all sides of his heritage from all accounts- Chinese, Indo, European. He is
spoken of with great respect for his 'class/caste' as well as his undoubted
proficiency.
I've heard that Danny Inosanto has BLee's notes from the period and is
considering publishing them- only a rumor at this point, but a common one.
Chas
Badger South
Oh, OK, I've heard you mention Reeders in the past but had
forgotten the precise name. That would be interesting if Guro
Dan published them. I'd doubt that Reeders would pass along
anything but few techniques, so it's not like there'd be big
secrets to hide. ;-)
Hmm, John Ritter vs Bill Reeders? I guess it's possible that
Larry's memory was that far off. His book had quite a few
typos, including the transcription of the Vince Lombardi
misquote I mentioned in another post; obviously the secretary
mis-heard 'Fatigue', as 'The tea'.
Thanks for the clarification.
-B
Chas
>..... I'd doubt that Reeders would pass along
> anything but few techniques, so it's not like there'd be big
> secrets to hide. ;-)
The big thing is the social aspect. Chinese are hated by Indonesians- the
primary conduit for Chinese art is through the 'platerans' (chinese/indo
mixed) and through the Dutch Indonesian community. Chinese are pretty
insular and so are Indonesians.
For BLee to acknowledge Indo art would be a difficulty- as would an
Indonesian teaching a Chinese, or a Eurasian- it's all very complicated, and
the perspectives change hourly <g>
> Hmm, John Ritter vs Bill Reeders? I guess it's possible that
> Larry's memory was that far off.
I've always heard that BLee's exposure was between 1960-63, so it may
predate Hartsell's direct involvement. Paul de Thouars taught him in Oakland
during that period, and Willem de Thouars was a practice partner- they all
knew William Reeders, so the connections aren't hard to follow.
Chas
story
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"Chas" <ch...@chasclements.com> wrote in message
news:gLOdnQwZBM6...@comcast.com...
>
> You're talking decades, I'm talking centuries, if not millennia.
> The basis for 'te' is far more likely to be Sumatran art than much of
> anything else, just because of the preponderance of malay influence on
> Okinawa- as opposed to China. People have been sailing along the island
> chain for as much as 8,000 years- far easier that the trip to Mainland
China
> at that point.
>
I'll try one more time. O.K. point me to any similarities you see in the
arts. I'll start you with a couple. Sam Chen is rather obviously the
ancestor to Sanchin. Shishoshin has it's antecedents in Fukein province as
well. Indeed it is near freaking identical!
.......................Tom.......................
Badger South
Wow, you're saying theat Paul taught BL directly in Oakland?
Wonder how that got arranged? Guro Dan wasn't even able to get
the old FMA masters to come out of the woodwork by 1960. Are we
able to place the de Thouars brothers in Oakland at the time,
or did you hear this directly from them? Sorry to be pressing
you, I don't doubt it, but am just really interested in the
historic angle.
It may be that JKD owes a lot more to silat than one might
think! ;-)
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
Badger North
ba...@node10.unix.Virginia.EDU (Badger South) wrote:
>It may be that JKD owes a lot more to silat than one might
>think! ;-)
It *does* seem to be an underreported influence.
Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm
Chas
> Wow, you're saying theat Paul taught BL directly in Oakland?
And Willem was his practice partner.
> Wonder how that got arranged? Guro Dan wasn't even able to get
> the old FMA masters to come out of the woodwork by 1960.
Bill has always had connections into the Chinese community. He was pretty
good friends with Ark Yuey Wong and those guys.
> Are we
> able to place the de Thouars brothers in Oakland at the time,
> or did you hear this directly from them?
Both; they were in Oakland at the time, and I heard it from them and people
surrounding them. I even have an old time leather focus mitt that is
supposed to come from then, and used by them.
> Sorry to be pressing
> you, I don't doubt it, but am just really interested in the
> historic angle.
Sure. They've always been very reticent to admit it, for social reasons. As
they get older, that is less of a problem than in the past- as I say, notes
and such are coming to light, so there is no reason to hold a secret about
it.
> It may be that JKD owes a lot more to silat than one might
> think! ;-)
Yeah; lots of the basic stuff is an emphasis in silat. Nobody wanted to
sound like whining or claiming some sort of connection, it isn't done. There
is less reserve about it when speaking of our elders than there was amongst
they themselves.
Chas
Chas
> arts. I'll start you with a couple. Sam Chen is rather obviously the
> ancestor to Sanchin. Shishoshin has it's antecedents in Fukein province as
> well. Indeed it is near freaking identical!
The whole thing looks like a sidongkak silat from Sumatra. The resemblance
is so notable as to have come to the attention of Bruce Haines in his
'Karate; It's History and Traditions' (Tuttle, 1968).
The Okinawan lexicon of martial arts terms are primarily of malay roots
rather than either Chinese or Japanese- in fact, the culture is far more
malay than chinese or japanese.
No doubt there were both Japanese influences (the samurai shipwreck theory)
and Chinese (wandering missionary priests theory), but the most logical
theory is the island hopping up the chain from the Malay Archipelago,
Indonesia, Filipines to Okinawa. People have been doing that since neolithic
times.
Chas
Badger South
Chas <ch...@chasclements.com> wrote:
>"Badger South" <ba...@node10.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote
>> Wow, you're saying theat Paul taught BL directly in Oakland?
>
>And Willem was his practice partner.
>
>> It may be that JKD owes a lot more to silat than one might
>> think! ;-)
>
>Yeah; lots of the basic stuff is an emphasis in silat. Nobody wanted to
>sound like whining or claiming some sort of connection, it isn't done. There
>is less reserve about it when speaking of our elders than there was amongst
>they themselves.
>
>Chas
Well maybe when/if Guro Dan comes out with a book of his notes,
they'll finally get the credit they're due. Thanks for the
details.
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
Badger North
wrote:
>> Wonder how that got arranged? Guro Dan wasn't even able to get
>> the old FMA masters to come out of the woodwork by 1960.
>
>Bill has always had connections into the Chinese community. He was pretty
>good friends with Ark Yuey Wong and those guys.
And Inosanto trained under Ark Y Wong.
Chas
> And Inosanto trained under Ark Y Wong.
And if he had been just a smidge prettier, would have left Bruce Lee in his
dust.
Chas
Badger South
Who? Inosanto or Wong? I don't think Dan has the inclination.
The pics I've seen of Wong reminded me of a chinese Joseph
Wiseman...
IMO, Dan has left BL in the dust, literally and figuratively.
He is far beyond where BL was, but of course doesn't quite have
that level of attributes (quickness, mimicry, sizing up the
opponent's next move). Apparently one of BL's talents was
picking up virtually any move and improving the heck out of it,
so the next time he showed you, he was better than the
originator. He also had an uncanny ability to pick up the
opponent's intent, according to Guro Dan.
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu