taiji & Herman Kauz
Brian C. Allen
Herman Kauz teaches pushing hands at my college here in San Diego.
I went to the class a few times and was very disappointed in what
and how things were being taught so I stopped going. The classes are
free (paid for by the college), but it just seemed like a waste of time.
What he was doing there did not seem like taiji at all. What he
taught as being neutralization was this: if an attack comes in,
turn your body quickly to the side, then turn back to counter.
For attacking someone, it was sort of like this: push someone
past the balance limit in their stance and be aware of how much
someone can actually turn in the different stances.
That stuff is pretty much common to many, if not most, martial arts.
According to how I was taught, that stuff just is not what makes
taiji what it is, and to me, it seems quite external and just basic
strategy. The stuff in that class was the kind of crud that I
was doing with my first taiji (used loosely in this case) instructor.
At the time I thought it was right, but then I met another instructor,
Chung-jen Chang, who drastically changed my perspective, and started
me over from the beginning.
Does anyone have experience with or knowledge of Herman Kauz? Does
he have genuine taiji skill? Is he holding back, or is what I
briefly (and incompletely, I suppose) described, the best that he
can do?
BCA
webCOMBO - America's Free Internet Access Provider
http://www.webcombo.net
Brian C. Allen
>
> Herman is the author of many Tai Chi and martial arts books. He was the
> student of zheng manjing in New York and he was an International Judo-Karate
I was aware of of this stuff, but it was not an indicator of skill.
> difficult for you to extrapolate the Tai Chi in his forms practice, however
> if you think his Push hands is bullshit try and push him. he being near 80
> years I'm sure you still wont get him.
I get the point that you think he is good, but without knowing me and
what
my experience is, saying I would not push him is is an odd assertion.
Hung Ga Sifu Pedro Cepero is not a taiji master, but I could not push
him.
This does not mean that what Sifu Cepero does is taiji.
> the principles of yielding, sticking and turning are what make Taijichuan
> unique, and in Herman's lineage relaxation is emphasized. Also his message
This is not true. Yielding, sticking, and turning are found in many
martial
arts that are considered external, such as Wing Chun and Hung Ga.
> of TURNING is the professors way of expressing neutralizing.there may be
Neutralizing is quite different from turning. Herman is just turning.
I
can neutralize without turning my body, just by manipulating my waist as
I
shift forward. This will cause the opponent to be come off balanced by
his
own force.
> better teachers of tai chi in your area for you, try looking to the Taoist
> sanctuary or the White Dragon schools or the Tai Chi Lady Xio Sui Fong Evens
> at Grossmont college. Also in Balboa park on Saturday at 9 am at Quince and
> 6th st on the shuffleboard courts Ted Purpero teaches excellent push hands
> and zheng man-jing forms.
I was not impressed by the Taoist Sanctuary. The lady that you mention,
I think,
is a contemporary wushu player, which is not real taiji. I am not
familiar
with Ted Purpero, so maybe I can check out the park.
> hard. Also the Very Best Tai Chi Teacher in San Diego is Mr. Abraham Liu
> (Liu Chen-huan) Zheng man-jing's student from Taiwan. His students Chris
> Luth teaches in Del Mar, and Richard Griffith teaches in La Jolla at the
> Doyle community center.
I have not seen Abraham Liu, but I am aware of his credentials. I
thought
was was further north in California.
I have seen Chris Luth many times at the Taste of China in Virginia, and
I
was not impressed, though I did applaud him for his discernment as a
judge
in the pushing hands competition. As head judge, he often over-rid
lower
judges decisions on points because Luth thought the techniques were too
muscular (which they were).
I am not try to be difficult here, but I hope you see my point. I
studied
judo for 3.5 years. Then I did informal shotokan practice for 3 years
with
a friend who was a student. Then I did just over 6 years of external
kung
fu (long fist, praying mantis, tiger claw, iron palm). I have been
doing
taiji now for just over 10 years. The first 6 were what I know consider
to be not real taiji. The last 4 years, I have had a genuine master for
an instructor (until I moved to San Diego). About 1.5 years ago, I also
did a few months of Shuaijiao with an instructor under Peter Chema.
I have acquired many skills, am very fast, and very flexible. I can
beat
many taiji people at pushing hands without becoming muscular and without
actually doing taiji. I can turn quickly. I know the inherent
weaknesses
in stances and how to capitalize on them. I can be relaxed. I can be
soft - and I can do all of that without it actually being real taiji.
What I am looking for is very specific and unique to taiji only.
Joseph Brown
"Brian C. Allen" wrote:
> I am not try to be difficult here, but I hope you see my point. I
> studied
> judo for 3.5 years. Then I did informal shotokan practice for 3 years
> with
> a friend who was a student. Then I did just over 6 years of external
> kung
> fu (long fist, praying mantis, tiger claw, iron palm). I have been
> doing
> taiji now for just over 10 years. The first 6 were what I know consider
> to be not real taiji. The last 4 years, I have had a genuine master for
> an instructor (until I moved to San Diego). About 1.5 years ago, I also
> did a few months of Shuaijiao with an instructor under Peter Chema.
>
> I have acquired many skills, am very fast, and very flexible. I can
> beat
> many taiji people at pushing hands without becoming muscular and without
> actually doing taiji. I can turn quickly. I know the inherent
> weaknesses
> in stances and how to capitalize on them. I can be relaxed. I can be
> soft - and I can do all of that without it actually being real taiji.
>
> What I am looking for is very specific and unique to taiji only.
>
Wow,
Another pithy and profound statement on r-ma!! We really gotta be careful about
putting too much useful content here...let's stick more with the personal attacks
and inane questions about why boxing is better than karate, etc. etc. :^)
I am right with you, Brian. Being sensitive and turning at the right time and
being really relaxed ISN'T taijiquan. Yet it characterizes most of what I saw
and was taught over my years of taijiquan instruction.
But I think what characterizes real taijiquan also characterizes xingyi and
baguazhang (and aikido...see a great new book called CENTER: THE POWER OF AIKIDO,
by Ron Meyer and Mark Reeder). It's the use of the center or dantien, the
relaxed alignments that channel force into the ground and direct power up from
the ground when emitting power, that's what internal strength is about. From
Cheng's writing it seems he understood that, but I don't see it in the writings
of Cheng's students (I have not, however, seen any of his students work, so I
can't comment...I can only comment on their writing).
They aren't alone in their ignorance, however. Four or five previous taijiquan
instructors I studied with didn't know the first thing about that and couldn't
demonstrate it and certainly couldn't teach it.
Joseph
Brian C. Allen
>
> I think that what Brian had to say about being interested only in the things
> unique to Taiji should have been the key to what he was trying to say.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Sigman
I hope that I did not give some other impression. By mentioning other
stuff, I was just trying to indicate that I do know stuff that is
useful to me, but that it does not matter because I really need (want)
to learn more and get better at taiji, and thus need a real taiji
instructor.
Herman Kauz is available at my school for free pushing hands
instruction.
It was my view that he did not do real taiji and thus it was of no
value to me.
My original post was to query whether someone had a different experience
or knowledge of Kauz in the case that I was mistaken or missing
something.
Thank you to Jamie and Mike so far for the input.
Brian C. Allen
>
> Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> unreal.
> your right the hug gar and wing chun do stick and yield and turn do not see
> them as relaxed, relaxation really facilitates all of these. the intent of
At least with hung ga, you would have to experience it to know that it
was relaxed. The forms practice is not relaxed and is done that way
intentionally to build the body. When applied, relaxation is necessary.
I do not have intimate knowledge of wing chun, though.
However, I want to make clear to people coming in late to this thread
that
I was not trying to say that wing chun or hung ga were like taiji, I
was trying to say that many of the words or concepts used to explain
strategy in these systems are similar.
Jamie Ruddy
"Brian C. AlleHerman is the author of many Tai Chi and martial arts books.
He was the
student of zheng manjing in New York and he was an International Judo-Karate
difficult for you to extrapolate the Tai Chi in his forms practice, however
if you think his Push hands is bullshit try and push him. he being near 80
years I'm sure you still wont get him.
unique, and in Herman's lineage relaxation is emphasized. Also his message
sanctuary or the White Dragon schools or the Tai Chi Lady Xio Sui Fong Evens
at Grossmont college. Also in Balboa park on Saturday at 9 am at Quince and
6th st on the shuffleboard courts Ted Purpero teaches excellent push hands
and zheng man-jing forms.
hard. Also the Very Best Tai Chi Teacher in San Diego is Mr. Abraham Liu
(Liu Chen-huan) Zheng man-jing's student from Taiwan. His students Chris
Luth teaches in Del Mar, and Richard Griffith teaches in La Jolla at the
Doyle community center.
Helm, the director of the Sanctuary.
Also Pushing Hands is a sensitivity EXERCISE for Taijiquan different styles
have diferent patterns and emphasises however in none of the style is push
hand confused with APPLICATIONS. it sound to me as if your not exactly clear
on the differnciation.
jami...@home.com
Overall in a free class you get what you pay for.
n" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote in message
news:39773ECE...@webcombo.net...
Mike Sigman
"Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
news:yoMd5.88652$T9.7...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> Herman's Tai Chi is real and according to Lao Tsu soft ALWAYS overcomes
> hard.
So if someone attacks you with a bayonet it is a law of nature that you can
defeat them with a pillow? I need to talk to Mr. Tsu about his perception
of reality. Yet Taiji has "both hard and soft" in it.... does this mean
that Taiji should not have this balance of soft and hard because of the
dicta of a certain Mr. Tsu who did not practice Taiji?
> Also Pushing Hands is a sensitivity EXERCISE for Taijiquan different
styles
> have diferent patterns and emphasises however in none of the style is push
> hand confused with APPLICATIONS. it sound to me as if your not exactly
clear
> on the differnciation.
> jami...@home.com
Perhaps so, perhaps not. Anyway, it seems that you are trying to think
about these things, but you are diverted by emotional attachment. Try to
think why some things may NOT be true. Be balanced in your judgement.
Mike Sigman
Jamie Ruddy
I'm not sure all of this matters if it adheres to the principals of the Tai
Chi Classics.
"real" is very subjective and maybe a political distinction more than a
substantive one.
Fake tai Chi that works or is something else may be better in some
situations than real Tai Chi that is yet fully developed.
Well I don't know. If it works and it adheres to the TaiJI classic
principals then I'm not sure if it matters if it is "real" or not maybe the
yielding nature of getting out of the way could be applied to the idea of
grasping this thing considered "real Tai Chi" let it go and forget it. If
your relaxed and adhere to the classics of connected to the root, centered,
unfolding your steps, move from the waist the middle-heart is the commander
and the hands are the flags. The qi is from the root flows through the nine
pearls and is manifested in the fingers. Things like this are vague but when
present make tai Chi "real".
Ben Lo is in San Francisco, Abraham Liu lives in La Jolla.
Sue Evens does do WuShu Tai Chi that is not applicable and she does no push
hands. That does not mean her Tai Chi is not real. It may be unuseful to
kick ass with but does not mean it is un real just useless as a martial art.
This does not mean she does not win lots of medals and even getting her
photo in TAI CHI MAGAZINE for being a grand champion at Tai Chi Legacy in
1999. Maybe she is a WuShu player but she wins at Tai Chi in a way different
then hurting somebody.
Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
unreal.
your right the hug gar and wing chun do stick and yield and turn do not see
them as relaxed, relaxation really facilitates all of these. the intent of
these hard styles seems a bit more confrontive as well.
If tai chi has a distinction from Robert W. Smith's book MARTIAL MUSINGS I
can't find the page that basically Tohie and Tamura could easily defeat
challenges but Zheng manjing was the only one the could do it without
causing any harm to the person.
Maybe this is what is real a true defensive art that has no aspiration to
push somebody off balance when with enough yielding they will usually over
extend themselves and fall will out being pushed..?
Maybe The white dragon Schools could teach your real Tai Chi they are
sometimes hard but have been known to sweep their divisions in Tai Chi
pushing competitions even when there forms were not judged well. I believe
Tai Sifu Ferrera teaches in El Cajon.
Otherwise the Sanctuary has Seminars with Masters from abroad I believe a
Chen style seminar happens this summer.
Your original posting had a tone that gave me the impression that you were
less knowledgeable of Tai Chi then your credentials indicate.
I have been very busy lately yet on rare occasions now I go to the San Diego
Judo Club 4026 30th st. (619) 563-9798 a Sandan named David presides over an
open Randori class on Sat. In the morning a Aikido class happens with a
great instructor named Walter, I do not know how real his Tai Chi is but he
has done some somewhere along the line.
It would be nice to randori and push with you when you have the chance post
a note, check it out and I hope to see you. I do not run the class or have
anything to do with the school but, your experience sounds as if the whole
bunch of us could benefit from your being there.
Jami...@home.com
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote in message
news:397791F0...@webcombo.net...
> Jamie Ruddy wrote:
> >
> > Herman is the author of many Tai Chi and martial arts books. He was the
> > student of zheng manjing in New York and he was an International
Judo-Karate
>
> I was aware of of this stuff, but it was not an indicator of skill.
>
> > difficult for you to extrapolate the Tai Chi in his forms practice,
however
> > if you think his Push hands is bullshit try and push him. he being near
80
> > years I'm sure you still wont get him.
>
> I get the point that you think he is good, but without knowing me and
> what
> my experience is, saying I would not push him is is an odd assertion.
> Hung Ga Sifu Pedro Cepero is not a taiji master, but I could not push
> him.
> This does not mean that what Sifu Cepero does is taiji.
>
> > the principles of yielding, sticking and turning are what make
Taijichuan
> > unique, and in Herman's lineage relaxation is emphasized. Also his
message
>
> This is not true. Yielding, sticking, and turning are found in many
> martial
> arts that are considered external, such as Wing Chun and Hung Ga.
>
> > of TURNING is the professors way of expressing neutralizing.there may be
>
> Neutralizing is quite different from turning. Herman is just turning.
> I
> can neutralize without turning my body, just by manipulating my waist as
> I
> shift forward. This will cause the opponent to be come off balanced by
> his
> own force.
>
> > better teachers of tai chi in your area for you, try looking to the
Taoist
> > sanctuary or the White Dragon schools or the Tai Chi Lady Xio Sui Fong
Evens
> > at Grossmont college. Also in Balboa park on Saturday at 9 am at Quince
and
> > 6th st on the shuffleboard courts Ted Purpero teaches excellent push
hands
> > and zheng man-jing forms.
>
> I was not impressed by the Taoist Sanctuary. The lady that you mention,
> I think,
> is a contemporary wushu player, which is not real taiji. I am not
> familiar
> with Ted Purpero, so maybe I can check out the park.
>
> > hard. Also the Very Best Tai Chi Teacher in San Diego is Mr. Abraham Liu
> > (Liu Chen-huan) Zheng man-jing's student from Taiwan. His students Chris
> > Luth teaches in Del Mar, and Richard Griffith teaches in La Jolla at the
> > Doyle community center.
>
> I have not seen Abraham Liu, but I am aware of his credentials. I
> thought
> was was further north in California.
>
> I have seen Chris Luth many times at the Taste of China in Virginia, and
> I
> was not impressed, though I did applaud him for his discernment as a
> judge
> in the pushing hands competition. As head judge, he often over-rid
> lower
> judges decisions on points because Luth thought the techniques were too
> muscular (which they were).
>
> I am not try to be difficult here, but I hope you see my point. I
> studied
> judo for 3.5 years. Then I did informal shotokan practice for 3 years
> with
> a friend who was a student. Then I did just over 6 years of external
> kung
> fu (long fist, praying mantis, tiger claw, iron palm). I have been
> doing
> taiji now for just over 10 years. The first 6 were what I know consider
> to be not real taiji. The last 4 years, I have had a genuine master for
> an instructor (until I moved to San Diego). About 1.5 years ago, I also
> did a few months of Shuaijiao with an instructor under Peter Chema.
>
> I have acquired many skills, am very fast, and very flexible. I can
> beat
> many taiji people at pushing hands without becoming muscular and without
> actually doing taiji. I can turn quickly. I know the inherent
> weaknesses
> in stances and how to capitalize on them. I can be relaxed. I can be
> soft - and I can do all of that without it actually being real taiji.
>
> What I am looking for is very specific and unique to taiji only.
>
Mike Sigman
> Too real Tai Chi or Not Real Tai Chi???
> I'm not sure all of this matters if it adheres to the principals of the
Tai
> Chi Classics.
>
Who exactly were the principals? I've forgotten. :^) (just a joke,
let it go)
The "principles" of Taiji also stress the jin and qi. Would you agree that
if someone cannot demonstrate the jin and qi of Taiji then they don't do
Taiji?
> Well I don't know. If it works and it adheres to the TaiJI classic
> principals then I'm not sure if it matters if it is "real" or not maybe
the
> yielding nature of getting out of the way could be applied to the idea of
> grasping this thing considered "real Tai Chi" let it go and forget it. If
> your relaxed and adhere to the classics of connected to the root,
centered,
> unfolding your steps, move from the waist the middle-heart is the
commander
> and the hands are the flags. The qi is from the root flows through the
nine
> pearls and is manifested in the fingers. Things like this are vague but
when
> present make tai Chi "real".
Sure. Can you demonstrate them, or are you just speculating out loud?
> Sue Evens does do WuShu Tai Chi that is not applicable and she does no
push
> hands. That does not mean her Tai Chi is not real. It may be unuseful to
> kick ass with but does not mean it is un real just useless as a martial
art.
If she cannot do and manipulate the qi and jin of Taiji, then what she does
is not really Taiji. It doesn't matter if some ignoramus judges at some
popular hangout decided she "looks good to me".
> This does not mean she does not win lots of medals and even getting her
> photo in TAI CHI MAGAZINE for being a grand champion at Tai Chi Legacy in
> 1999. Maybe she is a WuShu player but she wins at Tai Chi in a way
different
> then hurting somebody.
But can she show us the qi and jin of Taiji? If she can't, and she can't
manipulate it with her waist, then she doesn't do Taiji. It's very easy to
show. But it's hard to do correctly.
>
> Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> unreal.
"Health" is related to correctly moving the qi and jin in the Taiji fashion.
That's what "health" means in that context. Doing a low aerobic, low stress
exercise may be healthy in some definition, but that's not what the
definition of "health" means in Taiji. It is all about manipulating the qi
and jin.... free-moving qi leads to health.
> If tai chi has a distinction from Robert W. Smith's book MARTIAL MUSINGS I
> can't find the page that basically Tohie and Tamura could easily defeat
> challenges but Zheng manjing was the only one the could do it without
> causing any harm to the person.
I see what the mean by "Seek and ye shall find", now. :^) I need to
write a book so that anything I say will automatically become indisputable
Truth (tm) to the people who believe in me.
> Your original posting had a tone that gave me the impression that you were
> less knowledgeable of Tai Chi then your credentials indicate.
Heh. Shows how far off I must have been. I read your post and assumed you
knew almost nothing about Taiji.
> I have been very busy lately yet on rare occasions now I go to the San
Diego
> Judo Club 4026 30th st. (619) 563-9798 a Sandan named David presides over
an
> open Randori class on Sat. In the morning a Aikido class happens with a
> great instructor named Walter, I do not know how real his Tai Chi is but
he
> has done some somewhere along the line.
> It would be nice to randori and push with you when you have the chance
post
> a note, check it out and I hope to see you. I do not run the class or have
> anything to do with the school but, your experience sounds as if the whole
> bunch of us could benefit from your being there.
I think that what Brian had to say about being interested only in the things
Jamie Ruddy
the pillow is okay.
I'm not sure what you mean by thinking about these things? sure there is no
dpubt that push hands is a exercise not an application of Tai Chi like
rowing and techniques practices in aikido.
sure if emotional unattachment is a element of being rooted and centered in
the Dan Tian, then a balenced judgement could be from here but I must say
the Mind-Heart is the commander that issues orders to the dan tien to then
move the arms like flags. No where in the classics can I find anything on
emotional unattachment: I'm not sure what you mean.
pushing hands exercise is an exercise that all I'm trying to say no thoughts
or feelings about it.
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:qoNd5.3659$U56.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
Mike Sigman
> Sure a bayonet can easily be defeated with a pillow, after all stabing me
in
> the pillow is okay.
And the next stab? In other words, your statement was that "soft ALWAYS
overcomes hard". Too simplistic.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by thinking about these things? sure there is
no
> dpubt that push hands is a exercise not an application of Tai Chi like
> rowing and techniques practices in aikido.
"Soft overcomes hard" was not meant to apply only to push hands. What I was
pointing out was that no general statement is always true, including this
one.
>
> sure if emotional unattachment is a element of being rooted and centered
in
> the Dan Tian, then a balenced judgement could be from here but I must say
> the Mind-Heart is the commander that issues orders to the dan tien to then
> move the arms like flags. No where in the classics can I find anything on
> emotional unattachment: I'm not sure what you mean.
> pushing hands exercise is an exercise that all I'm trying to say no
thoughts
> or feelings about it.
I agree it is an exercise. I will have to visit Herman Kauz and see how he
does it, sometime. And I mean that in a friendly way.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Jamie Ruddy
turning and yielding but these manifestations are what I believe should
happen with the proper flowing from the root through the meridians. I do not
know what is REALLY relaxed the Professor's Tai Chi was often accused of
being "Noodle" tai chi especially by Guo Lianyin in Taiwan ( Ben Lo kicked
his butt with the noodle Tai Chi) Yet too relaxed is the way Cheng's
Forceful Chi flowed.
In western physics mass x speed = force, the body move much faster when
relaxed, there is not much more than eating like a pig that will change mass
( Zheng Manjing was a slight man) so the best way to influence force is by
speed the most direct way to do this is through relaxation. Chen'g really
emphasized "sung" "loose" Tai Chi not noodle Tai Chi. Being "loose" opens
the channels so the Qi can flow allowing greater Jing.
I agree with you- my eloquence may not be expressing it well.
The western physics of turning and yielding are real places to start. Qi
flow and Jing can be extremely esoteric and an excellent nebulous for
untalented Tai Chi teachers to dwell because, they have no real substance to
teach.
I believe before Qi can be effectively fa jinged the student should develop
a root by developing leg strength and hip flexibility. then substantial
energy will be released. but to somebody that does not stay for the final
reel, all the holding postures and horse stances and application exercises
will seem only external.
The process of Tai Chi and the Structure a quite intertwined and being an
internal art it goes that the process eventually creates the structure. This
is why Taijiquan is difficult to assess from the outside.
The classics I have are no older than Shakespeare but they mention relaxed
"sung" frequently.
with my best intentions Jamie
"Joseph Brown" <jbro...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3977ADF7...@uswest.net...
>
>
> "Brian C. Allen" wrote:
>
> > I am not try to be difficult here, but I hope you see my point. I
> > studied
> > judo for 3.5 years. Then I did informal shotokan practice for 3 years
> > with
> > a friend who was a student. Then I did just over 6 years of external
> > kung
> > fu (long fist, praying mantis, tiger claw, iron palm). I have been
> > doing
> > taiji now for just over 10 years. The first 6 were what I know consider
> > to be not real taiji. The last 4 years, I have had a genuine master for
> > an instructor (until I moved to San Diego). About 1.5 years ago, I also
> > did a few months of Shuaijiao with an instructor under Peter Chema.
> >
> > I have acquired many skills, am very fast, and very flexible. I can
> > beat
> > many taiji people at pushing hands without becoming muscular and without
> > actually doing taiji. I can turn quickly. I know the inherent
> > weaknesses
> > in stances and how to capitalize on them. I can be relaxed. I can be
> > soft - and I can do all of that without it actually being real taiji.
> >
> > What I am looking for is very specific and unique to taiji only.
> >
>
> Wow,
>
> Another pithy and profound statement on r-ma!! We really gotta be careful
about
> putting too much useful content here...let's stick more with the personal
attacks
> and inane questions about why boxing is better than karate, etc. etc. :^)
>
> I am right with you, Brian. Being sensitive and turning at the right time
and
> being really relaxed ISN'T taijiquan. Yet it characterizes most of what I
saw
Jamie Ruddy
"Health" is related to correctly moving the qi and jin in the Taiji fashion.
That's what "health" means in that context. Doing a low aerobic, low stress
exercise may be healthy in some definition, but that's not what the
definition of "health" means in Taiji. It is all about manipulating the qi
and jin.... free-moving qi leads to health.
I believe the distinction here is that the focused Heart-Mind is the
commander of the action and this alert-mindful-relaxed diaphragmatic
breathing meditation is sustained throughout the form. Its not just aerobic
or golf or exercise. It is contained in the second branch of classical
Chinese Taoist healing arts, the same branch as Qigong. Qigong is not
usually a martial art.
I see what the mean by "Seek and ye shall find", now. :^) I need to
write a book so that anything I say will automatically become indisputable
Truth (tm) to the people who believe in me.
Contempt prior to investigation is a PRINCIPLE guaranteed (ALWAYS) to keep
you in everlasting
ignorance.
"Soft overcomes hard" was not meant to apply only to push hands. What I was
pointing out was that no general statement is always true, including this
one.
Are you saying- There are no absolutes?
Absolutely?
Soft over hard like soft water overcoming the hard rocks. The Extremes of
water and Tai Chi are that they are both incredibly soft and incredible
hard or can be. This isn't explained in the mere structure of H2O, it
contains a process unexplainable like light is it a particle or a wave ?
SAY?
> It would be nice to randori and push with you when you have the chance
post
> a note, check it out and I hope to see you. I do not run the class or have
> anything to do with the school but, your experience sounds as if the whole
> bunch of us could benefit from your being there.
I think that what Brian had to say about being interested only in the things
unique to Taiji should have been the key to what he was trying to say.
SAY?
something's are better demonstrated then explained. In my experience for
most when it is all said and done much more gets said then done. my
curiosity is respectful to see Brian walk the walk not just talk the talk. I
want to see "real " Tai Chi. This is meant with good intentions and for the
the betterment of my art- invest in lose.
not a challenge thing if that's what you mean.
best intentions and thank you for you time and patience (with a "C")
Jamie168
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xRNd5.3799$U56.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:UCNd5.88793$T9.7...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> > Too real Tai Chi or Not Real Tai Chi???
> > I'm not sure all of this matters if it adheres to the principals of the
> Tai
> > Chi Classics.
> >
>
> Who exactly were the principals? I've forgotten. :^) (just a joke,
> let it go)
>
> The "principles" of Taiji also stress the jin and qi. Would you agree
that
> if someone cannot demonstrate the jin and qi of Taiji then they don't do
> Taiji?
>
>
> > Well I don't know. If it works and it adheres to the TaiJI classic
> > principals then I'm not sure if it matters if it is "real" or not maybe
> the
> > yielding nature of getting out of the way could be applied to the idea
of
> > grasping this thing considered "real Tai Chi" let it go and forget it.
If
> > your relaxed and adhere to the classics of connected to the root,
> centered,
> > unfolding your steps, move from the waist the middle-heart is the
> commander
> > and the hands are the flags. The qi is from the root flows through the
> nine
> > pearls and is manifested in the fingers. Things like this are vague but
> when
> > present make tai Chi "real".
>
> Sure. Can you demonstrate them, or are you just speculating out loud?
>
> > Sue Evens does do WuShu Tai Chi that is not applicable and she does no
> push
> > hands. That does not mean her Tai Chi is not real. It may be unuseful to
> > kick ass with but does not mean it is un real just useless as a martial
> art.
>
> If she cannot do and manipulate the qi and jin of Taiji, then what she
does
> is not really Taiji. It doesn't matter if some ignoramus judges at some
> popular hangout decided she "looks good to me".
>
> > This does not mean she does not win lots of medals and even getting her
> > photo in TAI CHI MAGAZINE for being a grand champion at Tai Chi Legacy
in
> > 1999. Maybe she is a WuShu player but she wins at Tai Chi in a way
> different
> > then hurting somebody.
>
> But can she show us the qi and jin of Taiji? If she can't, and she can't
> manipulate it with her waist, then she doesn't do Taiji. It's very easy
to
> show. But it's hard to do correctly.
>
> >
> > Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> > unreal.
>
> "Health" is related to correctly moving the qi and jin in the Taiji
fashion.
> That's what "health" means in that context. Doing a low aerobic, low
stress
> exercise may be healthy in some definition, but that's not what the
> definition of "health" means in Taiji. It is all about manipulating the
qi
> and jin.... free-moving qi leads to health.
>
>
> > If tai chi has a distinction from Robert W. Smith's book MARTIAL MUSINGS
I
> > can't find the page that basically Tohie and Tamura could easily defeat
> > challenges but Zheng manjing was the only one the could do it without
> > causing any harm to the person.
>
> I see what the mean by "Seek and ye shall find", now. :^) I need to
> write a book so that anything I say will automatically become indisputable
> Truth (tm) to the people who believe in me.
>
> > Your original posting had a tone that gave me the impression that you
were
> > less knowledgeable of Tai Chi then your credentials indicate.
>
> Heh. Shows how far off I must have been. I read your post and assumed
you
> knew almost nothing about Taiji.
>
>
> > I have been very busy lately yet on rare occasions now I go to the San
> Diego
> > Judo Club 4026 30th st. (619) 563-9798 a Sandan named David presides
over
> an
> > open Randori class on Sat. In the morning a Aikido class happens with a
> > great instructor named Walter, I do not know how real his Tai Chi is but
> he
> > has done some somewhere along the line.
> > It would be nice to randori and push with you when you have the chance
> post
> > a note, check it out and I hope to see you. I do not run the class or
have
> > anything to do with the school but, your experience sounds as if the
whole
> > bunch of us could benefit from your being there.
>
David Williams
"Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
news:UCNd5.88793$T9.7...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> Too real Tai Chi or Not Real Tai Chi???
> I'm not sure all of this matters if it adheres to the principals of the
Tai
> Chi Classics.
>
> "real" is very subjective and maybe a political distinction more than a
> substantive one.
> Fake tai Chi that works or is something else may be better in some
> situations than real Tai Chi that is yet fully developed.
>
> Well I don't know. If it works and it adheres to the TaiJI classic
> principals then I'm not sure if it matters if it is "real" or not maybe
the
> yielding nature of getting out of the way could be applied to the idea of
> grasping this thing considered "real Tai Chi" let it go and forget it. If
> your relaxed and adhere to the classics of connected to the root,
centered,
> unfolding your steps, move from the waist the middle-heart is the
commander
> and the hands are the flags. The qi is from the root flows through the
nine
> pearls and is manifested in the fingers. Things like this are vague but
when
> present make tai Chi "real".
> Ben Lo is in San Francisco, Abraham Liu lives in La Jolla.
Isn't Ben Lo retired from teaching?
> Sue Evens does do WuShu Tai Chi that is not applicable and she does no
push
> hands. That does not mean her Tai Chi is not real. It may be unuseful to
> kick ass with but does not mean it is un real just useless as a martial
art.
That is an oxymoron isn't it?
The whole point of it being martial is to kick ass, otherwise it's not
martial.
Being "real" and being martial are two different things.
> This does not mean she does not win lots of medals and even getting her
> photo in TAI CHI MAGAZINE for being a grand champion at Tai Chi Legacy in
> 1999. Maybe she is a WuShu player but she wins at Tai Chi in a way
different
> then hurting somebody.
Maybe she is good at forms. That is of course not fighting.
>
> Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> unreal.
> your right the hug gar and wing chun do stick and yield and turn do not
see
> them as relaxed, relaxation really facilitates all of these. the intent of
> these hard styles seems a bit more confrontive as well.
While a lot of Wing Chun is incorrectly practiced as "hard" not all is.
Some do use relaxed power.
And yes, Wing Chun is meant to be very aggressive and confrontational.
[snip]
David Williams
I understood where you were coming from.
And I think your observations about Hung Ga and WC were right on the mark.
The key difference I observe is in the use of the dantien in Taiji (from a
WC perspective).
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote in message
news:3977D4E8...@webcombo.net...
> Jamie Ruddy wrote:
> >
>
> > Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> > unreal.
> > your right the hug gar and wing chun do stick and yield and turn do not
see
> > them as relaxed, relaxation really facilitates all of these. the intent
of
>
> At least with hung ga, you would have to experience it to know that it
> was relaxed. The forms practice is not relaxed and is done that way
> intentionally to build the body. When applied, relaxation is necessary.
> I do not have intimate knowledge of wing chun, though.
>
> However, I want to make clear to people coming in late to this thread
> that
> I was not trying to say that wing chun or hung ga were like taiji, I
> was trying to say that many of the words or concepts used to explain
> strategy in these systems are similar.
>
Mike Sigman
> Sure Joseph the Qi is what is being cultivated not the physical act of
> turning and yielding but these manifestations are what I believe should
> happen with the proper flowing from the root through the meridians. I do
not
> know what is REALLY relaxed the Professor's Tai Chi was often accused of
> being "Noodle" tai chi especially by Guo Lianyin in Taiwan ( Ben Lo kicked
> his butt with the noodle Tai Chi) Yet too relaxed is the way Cheng's
> Forceful Chi flowed.
>
Who is Guo Lian Yin? Is this the guy who was challenging Huang Shyan Shin
(sp?). If so, I never heard of any fight between Ben Lo and this person.
Could you elucidate like when, etc.?
> I believe before Qi can be effectively fa jinged the student should
develop
> a root by developing leg strength and hip flexibility. then substantial
> energy will be released. but to somebody that does not stay for the final
> reel, all the holding postures and horse stances and application exercises
> will seem only external.
How about the dan tian? Doesn't that do anything?
Mike
Mike Sigman
>
> I believe the distinction here is that the focused Heart-Mind is the
> commander of the action and this alert-mindful-relaxed diaphragmatic
> breathing meditation is sustained throughout the form. Its not just
aerobic
> or golf or exercise. It is contained in the second branch of classical
> Chinese Taoist healing arts, the same branch as Qigong. Qigong is not
> usually a martial art.
>
But the "heart leads the mind" is just part of the description of how the
qi, which is the precursor to the jin, is manipulated. There is no
intangible esoterica in this. These are physical processes that can be
shown and demonstrated, not just imagined. If you move the qi, you are
exercising it. If your qi is moving freely then it affects your
health...... BUT you can also demonstrate these things. It is not just
talk. The "mind -body" that most people are talking about is just
imagination or something else using the same terms.
> I see what the mean by "Seek and ye shall find", now. :^) I need to
> write a book so that anything I say will automatically become indisputable
> Truth (tm) to the people who believe in me.
> Contempt prior to investigation is a PRINCIPLE guaranteed (ALWAYS) to
keep
> you in everlasting
> ignorance.
Possibly, but that is easy to check, also. It is easy to check skills in qi
and jin. I assume you have fairly good skills in order to be advising
people?
>
> Soft over hard like soft water overcoming the hard rocks. The Extremes of
> water and Tai Chi are that they are both incredibly soft and incredible
> hard or can be. This isn't explained in the mere structure of H2O, it
> contains a process unexplainable like light is it a particle or a wave ?
It is pointless to argue these things. Does water go through a rock or does
it get diverted by a rock. In which case, does the rock win or the water
win? See? Depends on perspective. Is the desert full of water or full
of rocks? Did the water win?
> something's are better demonstrated then explained. In my experience for
> most when it is all said and done much more gets said then done. my
> curiosity is respectful to see Brian walk the walk not just talk the talk.
I
> want to see "real " Tai Chi.
I'm not sure what you mean. For instance, there are now a number of videos,
visiting professors, etc., etc., etc., of Taiji that are available. You can
look at all of these and form a general idea of what Taiji looks like. When
you see somebody do something that is quite different, it is fairly safe to
say, "that doesn't look like Taiji at all" without having someone say, "Oh,
yeah, I want to see you walk the walk", etc. If you see what I mean.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
>
>
> Who is Guo Lian Yin? Is this the guy who was challenging Huang Shyan Shin
> (sp?). If so, I never heard of any fight between Ben Lo and this person.
> Could you elucidate like when, etc.?
>
Oh, wait. You must mean Kuo Lien Ying. Ben Lo never kicked Kuo's butt.
I always feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland trying to figure out CMC
Revised-History. Kuo reportedly kicked CMC's butt. I never heard a story
with Ben Lo in it, but if someone wants to tell it, I'll be glad to repeat
the story to some people I know on Taiwan and get some feedback.
This is like the story which is all over China that Wan Lai Xin embarrassed
Yang Cheng Fu and slapped him in the belly before walking away. The changed
version has several variations where a student like Zhang Qing Ling or even
another "master" like Wu Chyan Chin interceded and so therefore the
embarrassing spectacle never happened. The problem is that it's one thing
to sell revised history over in the West where nobody knows anything and
it's another thing to try and sell it over where everyone knows what really
happened. You should have been in my shoes when I used to try and sell
some of Robert Smith's stories to people who were born and raised on Taiwan
and who were not even really interested in Taiji. I'll never forget one
martial arts teacher spinning around incredulously and asking where I heard
CMC was a great fighter... "He was a painter! He tried to challenge Tu Xin
Wu one time and Tu put him in the hospital for 3 months!" Lots of things
like that which reflect the general idea that history and stories are 2
different things.
Mike Sigman
Jamie Ruddy
I do not know I have never studied with Mr. Lo
"David Williams" <d...@wingchun.com> wrote in message
news:E9Sd5.52812$i5.7...@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com...
> Some comments from a Wing Chun perspective...
>
> "Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:UCNd5.88793$T9.7...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> Isn't Ben Lo retired from teaching?
>
> > Sue Evens does do WuShu Tai Chi that is not applicable and she does no
> push
> > hands. That does not mean her Tai Chi is not real. It may be unuseful to
> > kick ass with but does not mean it is un real just useless as a martial
> art.
>
> That is an oxymoron isn't it?
> The whole point of it being martial is to kick ass, otherwise it's not
> martial.
> Being "real" and being martial are two different things.
>
>
> > This does not mean she does not win lots of medals and even getting her
> > photo in TAI CHI MAGAZINE for being a grand champion at Tai Chi Legacy
in
> > 1999. Maybe she is a WuShu player but she wins at Tai Chi in a way
> different
> > then hurting somebody.
>
> Maybe she is good at forms. That is of course not fighting.
>
> >
> > Some players only do Tai Chi for health it does not make there Tai Chi
> > unreal.
> > your right the hug gar and wing chun do stick and yield and turn do not
> see
> > them as relaxed, relaxation really facilitates all of these. the intent
of
> > these hard styles seems a bit more confrontive as well.
>
Jamie Ruddy
Yes during then STATIC or holding postures the Dan Tian is circulating Qi.
The Holding part is external. but remember to Stand like a mountain and when
moving flow like a river. This mean both externally and internally.
Oh, wait. You must mean Kuo Lien Ying. Ben Lo never kicked Kuo's butt.
I always feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland trying to figure out CMC
I will recheck my source from Taiwan, I am not Bens student so I can not ask
him but somehow I got the impression Gou Yin (Kou Ying) came over to see
what CMC had in the way of Qi and the Professor denied his challenge maybe
even twice then Ben went over to Gou after this to see what he had very
respectful but with a real challenge in his heart. Then Ben Lo kicked his
butt and Gou Lin Ying never public Talked Shit about the Professor's TaJI or
Noodle Taiji again.
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:C_Vd5.7144$Yy3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Jamie Ruddy" <jam...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:EeQd5.89536$T9.7...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> > Sure Joseph the Qi is what is being cultivated not the physical act of
> > turning and yielding but these manifestations are what I believe should
> > happen with the proper flowing from the root through the meridians. I do
> not
> > know what is REALLY relaxed the Professor's Tai Chi was often accused of
> > being "Noodle" tai chi especially by Guo Lianyin in Taiwan ( Ben Lo
kicked
> > his butt with the noodle Tai Chi) Yet too relaxed is the way Cheng's
> > Forceful Chi flowed.
> >
>
> Who is Guo Lian Yin? Is this the guy who was challenging Huang Shyan Shin
> (sp?). If so, I never heard of any fight between Ben Lo and this person.
> Could you elucidate like when, etc.?
>
>
Jamie Ruddy
view. No doubt there are some great teachers in California maybe one or two
in San Diego. Herman may not be one of them., but he does have things to
teach. Even if his do try and control the other person is a way of
controlling the class. He does have a message and it it OKAY not great .
Also he is out there after years of practice and study teaching at whatever
college ( Palomar?) providing classes that end up being free for the
student. This can only help the Taiji community of San Diego.
So if Herman has got something you want go to the class and have fun, if not
look around there are only a few Taiji teachers in San Diego I absolutely
would not study under because they are not nice people, even if their Taiji
was good. Herman a good person and his Taiji may be limited and not for
everybody, but I wouldn't say its not real.
Hope to see ya some day. Jamie
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote in message
news:3977D390...@webcombo.net...
> Mike Sigman wrote:
> >
> > I think that what Brian had to say about being interested only in the
things
> > unique to Taiji should have been the key to what he was trying to say.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike Sigman
>
> I hope that I did not give some other impression. By mentioning other
> stuff, I was just trying to indicate that I do know stuff that is
> useful to me, but that it does not matter because I really need (want)
> to learn more and get better at taiji, and thus need a real taiji
> instructor.
>
> Herman Kauz is available at my school for free pushing hands
> instruction.
> It was my view that he did not do real taiji and thus it was of no
> value to me.
>
> My original post was to query whether someone had a different experience
> or knowledge of Kauz in the case that I was mistaken or missing
> something.
>
> Thank you to Jamie and Mike so far for the input.
>
David Williams
>
> This is like the story which is all over China that Wan Lai Xin
embarrassed
> Yang Cheng Fu and slapped him in the belly before walking away.
So did that version actually happen?
Mike Sigman
> How about the dan tian? Doesn't that do anything?
>
> Yes during then STATIC or holding postures the Dan Tian is circulating Qi.
> The Holding part is external. but remember to Stand like a mountain and
when
> moving flow like a river. This mean both externally and internally.
The "dan tien" physically turns... that's how the jin to the hands is
manipulated. Some peoples' dantien area is so heavily developed that they
have what is called a "qi ball". Only back in the New Age days of Taiji
did everyone think that the dan tien was purely an intangible.
"Stand like a mountain; when in motion like a flowing river" refers to the
internal strength generated by the manipulation of jin. When standing, the
rooting power of jin makes you as "immovable as a mountain". When moving
using jin it feels relaxed but as irresistable as the power of a great
river.
>
> Oh, wait. You must mean Kuo Lien Ying. Ben Lo never kicked Kuo's butt.
> I always feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland trying to figure out CMC
>
> I will recheck my source from Taiwan, I am not Bens student so I can not
ask
> him but somehow I got the impression Gou Yin (Kou Ying) came over to see
> what CMC had in the way of Qi and the Professor denied his challenge maybe
> even twice then Ben went over to Gou after this to see what he had very
> respectful but with a real challenge in his heart. Then Ben Lo kicked his
> butt and Gou Lin Ying never public Talked Shit about the Professor's TaJI
or
> Noodle Taiji again.
Hee hee. CMC reportedly asked Kuo for a re-match when they were in the
States. Kuo turned him down saying something like "that territory has
already been covered". Kuo was a mercenary martial-arts guard during his
lifetime. Neither CMC nor Ben Lo would have been up to that level. In a
lot of ways these revisionist histories only do a disservice to CMC because
as I said, even though westerners may be ignorant at the moment about the
real history, the real history is out there and fairly well known... it can
come back to haunt.
It's very much like the old stories by Yang loyalists in which a mystical
character named "Wang Tsung Yueh" was invented. It got by at the time, but
now research indicates that there was no such person, no original writing
(supposedly found by Wu Yu Xiang) has ever been seen, and many of "Wang's"
quotes turn out to have been said by Zhang Nai Jou... so "Wang Tsung Yueh"
was a fabrication. That does not do anything positive for the Yang style,
it detracts.... so it would have been better to stick to the simple truth.
When the real truth comes out (as it often does), it can be embarrassing.
Incidentally, the inner Yang family does not tell those stories at all in
their history.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
I would guess that it did, based on the widespread of the story among the
entire Chinese martial arts community. There are actually quite a number of
stories *outside of the Taiji community* in China about challenges that Yang
Cheng Fu dodged, so I doubt it is a partisan thing. On the other hand, the
counter-stories seem to be isolated to just a few groups and are not
supported widely even within the Taiji community. A number of Taiji
practitioners of all styles, particularly the Wu Jian Jin style, indicate
that there were problems with Yang Cheng Fu's level. Even stories within
the Yang family indicate that YCF did not apply himself when his father was
alive and that he had to "rediscover" a number of things, etc., etc.
However, the point of these sorts of things is that if you're looking for
good and solid information, you will have to pick your way carefully. No
one is the ultimate authority; some are just better than others. I've found
that regardless of who "was the best", etc., etc., I've gathered bits of
information from all styles and all teachers.
Mike
Jamie Ruddy
maybe I wasn't listening well that day.
You ideas on Qi and Dan Tian are very good, thank you for taking the time to
share them.
I can't say I will be back here often enough to listen to everybody's
wonderful information it is a great diversion from my work and I must get
back to it all now.
but thank you and I will post what I find out with the Ben Lo Gou Yin
STORY. sometimes I ask why they're called STORIES..?
with all my best intentions Jami...@home.com
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:NP_d5.7682$Yy3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
JimS
>
>Taiji people,
>Herman Kauz teaches pushing hands at my college here in San Diego.
>I went to the class a few times and was very disappointed in what
>and how things were being taught so I stopped going. The classes are
>free (paid for by the college), but it just seemed like a waste of time.
>What he was doing there did not seem like taiji at all. What he
>taught as being neutralization was this: if an attack comes in,
>turn your body quickly to the side, then turn back to counter.
>For attacking someone, it was sort of like this: push someone
>past the balance limit in their stance and be aware of how much
>someone can actually turn in the different stances.
Not real surprising. I think I can offer a couple observations, since Kauz is
an old-timer JKA karate guy who turned to taijiquan and also studied the CMC style
(this disturbing pattern has got to stop).
What you see from Kauz's book on the CMC form is what you should expect- it's basically
a karate guy trying to do taijiquan. The pics are a giveaway.
Just like another well-known taiji teacher looks like a white-crane guy trying
to do taijiquan, but I digress... :-))).
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with having another background; heck, many
people come to taijiquan from different prior perspectives.
But when they put out a book and the postures look a little stiff or whatever,
use a little discernment when assessing the situation.
The observation above about turning the waist as an example of "neutralization" is another
example of what I'm talking about (i.e., needing discernment). What it looks like to
me here was that Kauz was told the CMC gospel that Cheng himself put great emphasis on
roll-back (lu) as the "key to taijiquan"; some of us know because we were told the same
gospel :-).
So, somehow, this gets translated into "good neutralization" being "turning the waist"
as force comes in, and viola! You're supposedly doing great neutralization now.
I think there are a lot of gray areas like "neutralization" that weren't really understood
well by the CMC community and students ran off with simplified ideas.
Blame shouldn't probably go back to Cheng himself; you can kinda see what he was trying
to drum in to students but they may have interpreted a bit naively. Hippies, ya know.
JS :-)
Joseph Brown
JimS wrote:
> In article <39773ECE...@webcombo.net>, b...@webcombo.net says...
> >
> >Taiji people,
> >Herman Kauz teaches pushing hands at my college here in San Diego.
> >I went to the class a few times and was very disappointed in what
> >and how things were being taught so I stopped going.
>
> Not real surprising. I think I can offer a couple observations, since Kauz is
> an old-timer JKA karate guy who turned to taijiquan and also studied the CMC style
> (this disturbing pattern has got to stop).
> What you see from Kauz's book on the CMC form is what you should expect- it's basically
> a karate guy trying to do taijiquan. The pics are a giveaway.
>
Yeah...I am very grateful to Kauz and Robert Smith for introducing the neijia to us...but
it's kinda sad that it's taken so long for the US to see really skilled neijia artists.
>
> Just like another well-known taiji teacher looks like a white-crane guy trying
> to do taijiquan, but I digress... :-))).
>
Hey! No fair criticizing one of my former instructors!! :^)
>
> There's nothing intrinsically wrong with having another background; heck, many
> people come to taijiquan from different prior perspectives.
> But when they put out a book and the postures look a little stiff or whatever,
> use a little discernment when assessing the situation.
Here's my question...how would Kauz have felt if a green belt in Shotokan had decided to
write a book on it? I can't help but wonder if these guys, when they decided to move to
taijiquan, also adopted lower
standards.
Joseph
Mike Sigman
> Here's my question...how would Kauz have felt if a green belt in Shotokan
had decided to
> write a book on it? I can't help but wonder if these guys, when they
decided to move to
> taijiquan, also adopted lower
> standards.
That's actually a pretty good question. It reminds me of the fact that most
green-belts feel like they're ready to teach, etc., too. This syndrome is
not just unique to Taiji. And of course since there were few "black belts"
around to tell them that they didn't know anything, you can see why we have
so many novices teaching Taiji in the U.S. who think they are experts.
Mike Sigman
JimS
says...
Well, thats the thing. Kauz probably didn't know he was just a "green belt" in
taiji; he probably thought since he was hooked into Cheng Manching and got some
positive feedback from other ex-hippies, he was at the top of the charts.
He certainly wouldn't get any different idea from talking to somebody like Robert Smith :-).
The whole thing is really a commentary on how taijiquan started in the U.S. and
the repercussions from it.
JS
Mike Sigman
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
news:8lk1q8$k3b$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
> Well, thats the thing. Kauz probably didn't know he was just a "green
belt" in
> taiji; he probably thought since he was hooked into Cheng Manching and got
some
> positive feedback from other ex-hippies, he was at the top of the charts.
> He certainly wouldn't get any different idea from talking to somebody like
Robert Smith :-).
>
> The whole thing is really a commentary on how taijiquan started in the
U.S. and
> the repercussions from it.
True, but Joseph's comparison to karate simply brought home the fact that
what we see in Western versions of Taiji is really no more than the same
psychology afflicting so many other martial arts and endeavors. And the
fact that with no proper leadership egos can really get out of control.
Mike
JimS
says...
>> The whole thing is really a commentary on how taijiquan started in the U.S. and
>> the repercussions from it.
>
>True, but Joseph's comparison to karate simply brought home the fact that
>what we see in Western versions of Taiji is really no more than the same
>psychology afflicting so many other martial arts and endeavors. And the
>fact that with no proper leadership egos can really get out of control.
>Mike
Yip, agreed. And I think there isn't much anyone can do about it even given good
leadership.
Case in point: in the Denver area, a certain Japanese guy, nidan in the JKA,
decides he wants to split off and "do his own school". He takes off and does
just that, promoting himself several ranks and offering "kendo" lessons to boot,
although he's not really a kendoka either, but can put up a good appearance to white
folks.
So what do you do in this situation? The original school is strong; the teacher
(Yaguchi, 7th dan at the time) has impeccable credentials; etc. etc.
Nothing wrong with leadship here. It was just powerless to put a stop to the
developing situation.
JS
Joseph Brown
JimS wrote:
> In article <W54f5.5753$5N1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, mikes...@earthlink.net
> says...
> >
> >That's actually a pretty good question. It reminds me of the fact that most
> >green-belts feel like they're ready to teach, etc., too. This syndrome is
> >not just unique to Taiji. And of course since there were few "black belts"
> >around to tell them that they didn't know anything, you can see why we have
> >so many novices teaching Taiji in the U.S. who think they are experts.
> >Mike Sigman
>
> Well, thats the thing. Kauz probably didn't know he was just a "green belt" in
> taiji; he probably thought since he was hooked into Cheng Manching and got some
> positive feedback from other ex-hippies, he was at the top of the charts.
> He certainly wouldn't get any different idea from talking to somebody like Robert Smith :-).
>
> The whole thing is really a commentary on how taijiquan started in the U.S. and
> the repercussions from it.
> JS
OK, Jim,
as far as I'm concerned, your statement speaks volumes. When you combine that with the
reluctance (apparently) of teachers to teach the real stuff (and the fact that we just didn't
have good taijiquan instructors...usually changquan or wushu stylists who also knew a taijiquan
form or two or three, or, in the case of Cheng Man Ching, a skilled person who wasn't interested
in philosophy than conveying the goods), it explains the confusion of etheric qi with tangible
(physical isn't correct because pengjin involves mind or yi) qi. And it explains why guys like
Kauz and Smith felt like they COULD write books on the art...they were fooled into thinking
their level of understanding was higher than it truly was.
You know, I first encountered the internal arts with Robert Smith's books. I was a Army brat on
Okinawa from '74 to '76, reading everything I could find on martial arts. I found his books on
taijiquan and baguazhang and xingyi; I read about qi and thought 'WOW'. I loved those books.
Given the way Smith wrote about the neijia, they seemed magical and with the way he and others
blended the neijia with Taoist alchemy, the physical part of these arts seemed really secondary.
I distinctly remember (I would spend hours trying to copy the forms in those books) thinking
that if I did
the forms enough (I would barely break a sweat...practicing taijiquan and bagua from books
wasn't anything like the shorin ryu karate I was studying at the time...THAT took work) and
feeling for the subtle sensations of chi, I would get these wild skills that went FAR beyond the
physical. I mean, I was hoping to be a super fighter AND be spiritually enlightened!
I can't help thinking that the early Westerners who brought taijiquan to a wider US audience got
lost in that
same childlike thinking... so we all got sidetracked into 'feeling the qi' rather than going for
observable demonstrable physical results. And we didn't have a lot of instructors who could
help us (I've had four or five previous instructors...only one, I believe, had the goods...but
he couldn't teach it...the others didn't have the goods, and that includes the big one who
publishes all the books).
And the real kick is that when you talk about the demonstrable physical skills, you get pegged
as being obsessed with a lower, less developed level...'we're losing the forests for the trees',
allegedly. When we try to deconstruct what the fundamental core skills of the neijia are, we're
told that we aren't pursuing taijiquan in a 'holistic' way, they say. YIKES!
On the brighter side, the more we get exposed to top neijia masters, the more the game will be
up.
Joseph
Badger
Joseph Brown <jbro...@uswest.net> wrote:
*snip*
> On the brighter side, the more we get exposed to top neijia masters,
the more the game will be
> up.
A student of mine studied Wu-style tai chi for a while. During a
vacation, he managed to meet another Wu-stylist. My student showed his
stuff, the other guy demo'ed, and my student decided that he would wait
until he could find a better instructor before telling anybody that he
had studied Wu Tai Chi. Now if only the 'instructors' could cough up
the same sort of integrity.
Badger
--
Northern Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu
& Filipino Martial Arts
http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chas
> Case in point: in the Denver area, a certain Japanese guy, nidan in the JKA,
> decides he wants to split off and "do his own school". He takes off and does
> just that, promoting himself several ranks and offering "kendo" lessons to boot,
> although he's not really a kendoka either, but can put up a good appearance to white
> folks.
> So what do you do in this situation? The original school is strong; the teacher
> (Yaguchi, 7th dan at the time) has impeccable credentials; etc. etc.
> Nothing wrong with leadship here. It was just powerless to put a stop to the
> developing situation.
If it's who I think it is, and I think it is, he had a *lot* of help
from the old country from some interests that needed to stash some guys
and enter the import/export business.
You'll remember that when he needed 7th and 8th dan visitors, he got
them- his shop always had upper end toys, all that.
Of course, the Koreans did the same thing; so did some breakaways from
breakaways, and that's not even to count the number of 'eclectic'
systems where some dude has had an epiphany that somehow escaped ten
generations of progenitors <g>
Chas
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Angie
> JimS wrote:
> > Case in point: in the Denver area, a certain Japanese guy, nidan in the JKA,
> > decides he wants to split off and "do his own school". He takes off and does
> > just that, promoting himself several ranks and offering "kendo"
lessons to boot,
> > although he's not really a kendoka either, but can put up a good
appearance to white
> > folks.
> > So what do you do in this situation? The original school is strong;
the teacher
> > (Yaguchi, 7th dan at the time) has impeccable credentials; etc. etc.
> > Nothing wrong with leadship here. It was just powerless to put a stop to the
> > developing situation.
>
> If it's who I think it is, and I think it is, he had a *lot* of help
> from the old country from some interests that needed to stash some guys
> and enter the import/export business.
> You'll remember that when he needed 7th and 8th dan visitors, he got
> them- his shop always had upper end toys, all that.
> Of course, the Koreans did the same thing; so did some breakaways from
> breakaways, and that's not even to count the number of 'eclectic'
> systems where some dude has had an epiphany that somehow escaped ten
> generations of progenitors <g>
Oooh! Juicy gossip! Come on Jim, don't leave me hanging! What's the
name? Please? Pretty please? =)
Honestly though, it's not like this is all that uncommon. I can think of
multiple people in this city who went off, self-promoted or were promoted
multiple ranks by the "other" JKA fraction, and now teach tons and tons of
people lots of crap. Then there are the ones that have valid rank, but
have split off and teach tournament style but call it tranditional, since
that's where their roots are at. It's just not where the money's at.
<sigh>
Angie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done.
JimS
>Oooh! Juicy gossip! Come on Jim, don't leave me hanging! What's the
>name? Please? Pretty please? =)
Naw, no purpose. I don't think you'd know him anyway, Angie. Maybe you would.
Chas. knows who I'm talking about :-).
I didn't mention this to gossip, just to illustrate that instructors are usually
helpless if students want to start splinter groups with 1/10th the knowledge.
>Honestly though, it's not like this is all that uncommon. I can think of
>multiple people in this city who went off, self-promoted or were promoted
>multiple ranks by the "other" JKA fraction, and now teach tons and tons of
>people lots of crap. Then there are the ones that have valid rank, but
>have split off and teach tournament style but call it tranditional, since
>that's where their roots are at. It's just not where the money's at.
><sigh>
>Angie
I hear you.
Just goes to support Mike's point earlier about everybody thinking they're able
to teach even though held up to proper standards they're actually pretty low level.
JS
JimS
>JimS wrote:
>> The whole thing is really a commentary on how taijiquan started in the U.S. and
>> the repercussions from it.
>> JS
>
>OK, Jim,
>as far as I'm concerned, your statement speaks volumes.
All the more amazing, Joseph, since it was typed :-)))).
Okay, I'll behave.
>When you combine that with the
>reluctance (apparently) of teachers to teach the real stuff (and the fact that we just didn't
>have good taijiquan instructors...usually changquan or wushu stylists who also knew a taijiquan
>form or two or three, or, in the case of Cheng Man Ching, a skilled person who wasn't interested
>in philosophy than conveying the goods), it explains the confusion of etheric qi with tangible
>(physical isn't correct because pengjin involves mind or yi) qi. And it explains why guys like
>Kauz and Smith felt like they COULD write books on the art...they were fooled into thinking
>their level of understanding was higher than it truly was.
No doubt in my mind. Hell, I was the same way. After I learned the CMC form, I thought that
was about the pinnacle of taiji :-). I didn't know a damn thing about push-hands,
silk-reeling, internal strength (peng skills), anything. It's funny to look back at our naive
assumptions sometimes. I had no idea on earth what a more "complete" taiji curriculum might look
like. What's sad is, many today are in exactly the same boat.
>You know, I first encountered the internal arts with Robert Smith's books. I was a Army brat on
>Okinawa from '74 to '76, reading everything I could find on martial arts. I found his books on
>taijiquan and baguazhang and xingyi; I read about qi and thought 'WOW'. I loved those books.
>Given the way Smith wrote about the neijia, they seemed magical and with the way he and others
>blended the neijia with Taoist alchemy, the physical part of these arts seemed really secondary.
Oh, even the Chinese do that routinely; Smith's stuff reflects the typical Taiwanese
environment of the period, does it not?
But I was the same; still have those original RW Smith books (vs. the remakes).
I remember when this stuff came out I was feeling the same way as
you describe :-). We just didn't know any better.
>I can't help thinking that the early Westerners who brought taijiquan to a wider US audience got
>lost in that same childlike thinking... so we all got sidetracked into 'feeling the qi' rather
than going for observable demonstrable physical results. And we didn't have a lot of instructors
who could help us (I've had four or five previous instructors...only one, I believe, had the
goods...but he couldn't teach it...the others didn't have the goods, and that includes the big
one who publishes all the books).
Well, you said it more eloquently than I would.
>And the real kick is that when you talk about the demonstrable physical skills, you get pegged
>as being obsessed with a lower, less developed level...'we're losing the forests for the trees',
>allegedly. When we try to deconstruct what the fundamental core skills of the neijia are, we're
>told that we aren't pursuing taijiquan in a 'holistic' way, they say. YIKES!
Yikes is right.
Personally, I love that new-agey phrase "mind/body unity". Somebody who talks like this ought
to be shot at dawn.
>On the brighter side, the more we get exposed to top neijia masters, the more the game will be
>up.
CXW was a revelation for many of us, I tell ya what. I'm rather awed at the possibilities of
the human body after paying close attention to his movement. I think watching these top
guys gives you that. And it ain't just the neijia guys. I get the same goose bumps watching a
master technician (in the best sense of the term) in another art. Kanazawa was that type of
level in Shotokan, no doubt in my mind. Poetry in motion.
JS
Brian C. Allen
>
By the way, you previously mentioned an Aikidoka named Walter who
teaches
on 30th Street. Walter happens to be my Biochemistry teacher. I just
thought I'd let you know for what its worth.
Based on what little conversion I've had with him, he seems to know
at least something about neijia. I have been considered going to check
out one of his Aikido classes.
nigel_...@my-deja.com
martial art.
Best Wishes,
Nigel
Jamie Ruddy
what ever reason the asker Brian Allen was a beginner that ran across a FREE
class at hi San Diego College. I was wrong Brian is no beginner.
Well Herman Kauz's Tai Chi is real but is nowhere near the level of CXW, Ben
Lo or Abraham Chen Huan Liu. Kauz is not the worst CMC form teacher in San
Diego, Some Lady in Bonita that teaches in a Tae Kwon Do school on Friday @
9am is so bad its worth going to see. She Butchers the form in creative ways
I could not explain. But her senior citizens love it, they swear by it.
And as for Herman, he is not even a good writer in; his book PUSH HANDS, he
says Compliment when he means complEment pg 15 and on pgs 57&58 he confuses
compose with comprise, on pg 113 he writes " lost his bearings" when it
should read "bearing". However that doesn't mean his book is a total wash.
Even the Grand Master could find something in it. The very last bit of
advice is great-and from CMC-, the secret to Tai Chi is PRACTICE. Well if
your writing so books this must detract from the time that would allow you
to practice. So his Tai Chi is real and so are his books that doesn't mean
they are going to win prizes for journalism or competition. Overall Herman
does the best with what he has and he is willing to give it away for free.
And for a beginner a free introductory class at the college might be what it
takes for the next CXW, or CMC to start their journey.
it may this class that sends them on a pursuit that allows them to
experience SILK REELING, an exercise not taught by CMC or Yang Chen Fu(
although Abraham Chen Huan Liu has a Yang version called circling)or Chen
Wei Ming.
Maybe this green teacher is the impetus that sends a good student on his way
to find the CXW that meets his needs.
After if a great Master could just transmit, all he had in six short lessons
and a book; even if it were the best "REAL" Tai Chi in the world, it
wouldn't be worth having. I like the search, both inside and outside. Its
all a great Journey and if Herman class creats an interest that sends one
college kid to the library to research Tai Chi and write a report that would
not have otherwise have been written: then we all benefit.
Afterall the "real" nature of Tai Chi energy is inexhaustible, not only is
there enough for everybody but the more we cultivate it the more it keeps
getting better.
so why not encourage an old man to teach free Tai Chi to people he is
better than, they may one day find you, and all the past experience will
have at least prepared them to notice what they have been missing.,and what
you have to offer.
and overall the Japanese Martial Arts do much Better at regulating BELTs and
QUALIFICATIONS to Teach than The Chinese Schools, do- overall.
with love and all my best intentions Jamie
<nigel_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8llfkq$kbs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Mark Goldberg
Jamie Ruddy wrote:
> Initially this was a query as to the realness of Kauz Tai Chi, ...Overall
> Herman
> does the best with what he has and he is willing to give it away for free.
> And for a beginner a free introductory class at the college might be what it
> takes for the next CXW, or CMC to start their journey.
> it may this class that sends them on a pursuit that allows them to
> experience SILK REELING, an exercise not taught by CMC or Yang Chen Fu(
> although Abraham Chen Huan Liu has a Yang version called circling)or Chen
> Wei Ming.
> Maybe this green teacher is the impetus that sends a good student on his way
> to find the CXW that meets his needs.
I dunno. I think it's difficult for accomplished practitioners to develop any
skill in a beginning student. And all these people who have no real skill but
do swan lake with feeling simply mislead, mislead and ultimately, misdirect all
beginners.
Proof? How many do we have in the US who have any skills of any sort via the
path you've described?
If this was an experiment to see if what you say was valid- they would have
terminated the experiment since less than .0001% had anything to show for the
effort.
So the attaining of any jing skills ( as well as the panaply of all that
follows ) must be shown, it must be developed- it is a serious change in the
biomechanics- and those who only think that floating slow and soft ( and all
those who think it's applications, done softly and yieldingly ) can only
mislead and probably doom beginners.
Why??
Because virtually all who have spent years doing this stuff, almost never want
to change and then it's too late.
Mark
alle...@my-deja.com
is still more popular. If someone so much as breaks a sweat, the other
side say 'this is not taiji'. CXW and Ren Guangyi are truly the
exception when u look at all the 'limp wrist' wanna beez.
SEA
Cliff P.
"Brian C. Allen" <b...@webcombo.net> wrote:
> Taiji people,
>
> Herman Kauz teaches pushing hands at my college here in San Diego.
> I went to the class a few times and was very disappointed in what
> free (paid for by the college), but it just seemed like a waste of
time.
>
not going to challange any of your feelings or observations about
Herman's teaching or ability. I would just like to say some things
about him. He deserves it. It's more of a human iterest thing if you'll
allow me.
I studied Shotokan Karate with Herman about 30 years ago in Brooklyn,
NY at his dojo on Kings Hwy. when he was still an active member of the
JKA. (Japan Karate Ass.)
What a great man! What a great talent! Because of some of his physical
restrictions he was never one of the prettiest practioners to watch.
And he wasn't very popular among the Japanese JKA members. Why? Because
when he was in Japan (forgive the slang) he virtually kicked the asses
of the best and strongest and stylized players in the organization
without looking and perfoming in an orthodox manner. (HE COULDN'T)
He was held back for years regarding his promotional growth within the
organization. I believe they froze him and 2nd DAN - although he beat
them all! He just couldn't look pretty - couldn't display that perfect
form. BUT! HE COULD FIGHT! Boy oh Boy could he fight! Frustrated the
hell out of them he did. He was also a great Judo Champ.... Hawaiian
Judo Champ. etc. (side note) Married to a Japanese woman and two
beautiful & great kids (girl & boy). They used to train with us.
I was young, tough, cocky, and thank goodness Herman was my first
instructor and not some of the showboats that were around. He had a
quiet way of teaching.... a way of getting his message across - either
with a smile of approval - or knocking u on your butt a couple doz.
times. He always knew which method you needed at the perfect time.
It was an interesting and fasinating experience to spar with him. You
couldn't understand why u forgot how to stand up, how to balance your
self, & why u wound up facing ten different directions except the one
you wanted to face. He was a big, strong, not very graceful man in his
own graceful way (if that makes any sense to you) that you figured
wouldn't take much to get in on him. WRONG! LOL
Even more fun was to watch young, sharp, skilled, strong, pretty black
belts try Herman on for size. Very funny indeed..... Very amusing...
and all along, Herman with that smile in his eyes...... while watching
the frustration of his opponents.
When Herman closed his dojo - he brought in the JKA to take over for
him. I guess he felt a loyalty and that his students would be in good
hands. I'll never forget the day that Sensi Mori and his Ass's. came to
the dojo to be introduced to us. I remember the feeling I had watching
them & Herman - polite tension.... They ran us through some drills...
and had uncomfortable looks on their faces as we performed. I didn't
realize it then, but what they were scowling at was the lack of form we
had... we all looked like and held ourselves like Herman. (our
teacher) :) When they began to straighten our arms & arch our backs
and show us how the techniques should look.... I remember being very
impressed and excited at how fancy they looked and how they kicked in
the air and how I will also learn to do that..... (Herman could only
throw a front kick and his side kick was fair) you never learned side
thrusts, roundhouses or flying kicks from Herman. In fact if anyone
ever went up in the air against Herman (I don't care how skilled the
opponent), they went down twice as fast and hard. As the years passed I
always wondered what was REALLY correct. JKA or JKA HERMAN?
I always felt that if I was able continue training with Herman for
years to come I would have been a much better skilled fighter. (I just
wouldn't look as pretty as I did perform my Katas) LOL Question: which
would have been better? What was my ultimate goal?
Well, now the end of my Herman story. He left his students in the JKA's
hands.... I trained for years with them, became a fairly skilled
practioner. But the warmth, caring & understanding I felt with Herman
dissapeared. I lost track of him until I saw a couple of books on the
shelves of Barnes & Noble over the years on Tai Chi by Herman Kauz.
I apologize if I rattled on a bit about Herman Kauz and I realize you
are be objective about your obsevations on his teaching and not
personal, but I just wanted you and some of the other readers to know
something about him as the teacher and man I knew a little bit about.
Thanks for your time - and if you ever see Herman again, tell him Cliff
from the Kings Highway Dojo say's hi.... and thank you. :)
mn...@my-deja.com
>
Cliff very well said. and the same goes for his Judo and tai chi. as
well. I know of no high ranking Japanese .and American. Judo man in this
country, who
does not respect Herman for his abilities . Real mind you tested, not
make belive, like these great masters of theirs, who have never proved
themselves
anywhere. .except on these pathetic. fools. ..heck any brown belt can do
that..
but here an deja .tai chi. For the mentally challenged . it wont make any
difference at all, what you say, why ? because. when you shut off all the
lights ,the rats
came out of hiding. they never show there face, or skills in the day
light. these tai chi guys wanna be, are all talk and nothing more.. they
will never know,
anything of what a true martial artist Herman was and is.. they are only
interested in bull shit ,but not much else,. not one of these guys has
the brains, or idea,
ofgoing to him directly. or as they say get the fact's from the source, I
know his past his prime late 70s. but i'm sure he can teach these guys a
thing or two.
All they are capable of doing is. Sing the same tired song .and read
there own post, it makes them feel important..
once again Cliff a great job.
.
Mario.
bowman
>
>dissapeared. I lost track of him until I saw a couple of books on the
>shelves of Barnes & Noble over the years on Tai Chi by Herman Kauz.
I certainly am not qualified to judge his taichi skill, but I will say his
book is one of the best presentations I've found. Compared to the cryptic
Authur Murray footprints, blurred photos with cartoon arrows suggesting the
direction of movement, or traditionally garbed practitioners who might as
well be wearing muumuus for all you can see of their posture, his is a
shining example.
And, yes, I know the party line, the tao you learn from a book is not the
true tao and so forth, but if you are going to bother to even try to do a
book, it would be nice to be professional, and Kauz is.
sctca
<mn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8lodqd$pm1> >
> . Real mind you tested, not
> make belive, like these great masters of theirs, who have never proved>
themselves> anywhere.
Well, you have your chance with CXW visiting NY soon.
Or you can go see plenty of other people - try John Conroy on Rhode Island
> came out of hiding. they never show there face, or skills in the day
> light. these tai chi guys wanna be, are all talk and nothing more
Except for the classes and seminars they teach, the various events they
attend, etc, etc, etc
> All they are capable of doing is. Sing the same tired song .
Yes, which is: give us something of susbtance Mario instead of all your
usual waffle.
Rob
Martha Gallagher
> Cliff P. <xinst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >dissapeared. I lost track of him until I saw a couple of books on the
> >shelves of Barnes & Noble over the years on Tai Chi by Herman Kauz.
>
> I certainly am not qualified to judge his taichi skill, but I will say his
> book is one of the best presentations I've found. Compared to the cryptic
> Authur Murray footprints, blurred photos with cartoon arrows suggesting the
> direction of movement, or traditionally garbed practitioners who might as
> well be wearing muumuus for all you can see of their posture, his is a
> shining example.
>
Yeah it's true that the illustrations are clear. Unfortunately, in this
case that may be a disadvantage. If you have a copy of the book, look at
his knee alignment. That's a screwed up knee waiting to happen. I've heard
some people say "yeah, but he did those pictures when he was young, etc.,
etc." But, if my memory serves me correctly (I have a copy of the old
edition around somewhere, but not the new one), he used the same pictures
in the new edition of his book.
I'd stay away from it, especially for someone who is trying to learn from
a book and doesn't have someone to tell them, "the book is a bad example
here."
Martha "knees are your friends" Gallagher
Joseph Brown
Martha Gallagher wrote:
I agree with Martha. I had that book and I remember the photos...Herm's knees
weren't aligned over his
feet correctly and just thinking about that makes me wince.
The knee problem goes beyond the issue of learning from a book...you really
can't learn taiji from a book, but one at least hopes that trying to won't give
you knee problems. That's the problem here.
Joseph
Joseph Brown
sctca wrote:
> <mn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8lodqd$pm1> >
> > . Real mind you tested, not
> > make belive, like these great masters of theirs, who have never proved>
> themselves> anywhere.
>
> Well, you have your chance with CXW visiting NY soon.
> Or you can go see plenty of other people - try John Conroy on Rhode Island
>
> > came out of hiding. they never show there face, or skills in the day
> > light. these tai chi guys wanna be, are all talk and nothing more
>
> Except for the classes and seminars they teach, the various events they
> attend, etc, etc, etc
>
> > All they are capable of doing is. Sing the same tired song .
>
> Yes, which is: give us something of susbtance Mario instead of all your
> usual waffle.
>
> Rob
John Conroy was my first Yang taijiquan instructor. I studied with him for
two years while
in grad school in engineering at that university on Providence's Eastside. I
presume Conroy still has his
school in downtown Providence.
Conroy is really good...I think of all my teachers, including the successful
YJM, Conroy may be the only one with the real goods...problem is he doesn't
know how to teach it...but I guess that's a different
story, huh?
Joseph
Mark Goldberg
mn...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Cliff very well said.
Yes, nicely written homage to a good man.
> ... Real mind you tested, not
> make belive, like these great masters of theirs, who have never proved
> themselves
> anywhere. .except on these pathetic. fools.
Ugh. Here you go.
> .... these tai chi guys wanna be, are all talk and nothing more.. they
> will never know,
> anything of what a true martial artist Herman was and is.. they are only
> interested in bull shit ,but not much else,. not one of these guys has
> the brains, or idea,
> ofgoing to him directly. or as they say get the fact's from the source, I
> know his past his prime late 70s. but i'm sure he can teach these guys a
> thing or two.
> All they are capable of doing is. Sing the same tired song .and read
> there own post, it makes them feel important..
>
> Mario.
>
And so that means your going to see CXW to be frank and forthright and tell
him your misgivings about him?? No?? How come. Oh right. You have no
interest in him or what he may have.
You want your own bullshit. OK. Just say so and stop bothering people. Just
be a randoring judoka
with style like you say he has.
You think you gather the respect this guy ( Kauz ) does???
There are a number of chinese taiji people now coming over. Others here on
this newsgroup will take the opportunity to see, evaluate and consider them.
I suggest you do too- if you want to write silly nonsense like you did here
about people not going out to look at the qualified.
Mark
Cliff P.
100...@adams.patriot.net>,
Martha Gallagher <ma...@patriot.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, bowman wrote:
>
> > Cliff P. <xinst...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
the
> > >shelves of Barnes & Noble over the years on Tai Chi by Herman Kauz.
> >
Martha, Herman could not do some of the absolute correct postures do to
his disability..... I only agree that he could have explained this to
his students & book purchasers....... although.. maybe he felt it
wasn't necessary, if we all could have attained the results the Herman
did - doing it Herman's way...... then hhmmmm may a new form has
developed right under our noses....... "HemKauzChwan" or somethin... :)
Cliff
mansu...@my-deja.com
Was it you that once performed Taiji knife form with Mac the Knife in
the bacground?
Mans
Martha Gallagher
> Martha,
> Was it you that once performed Taiji knife form with Mac the Knife in
> the bacground?
> Mans
>
It wasn't a knife, it was a fan, and it wasn't _Mac the Knife_, it was _Le
Reel De Nez Pique_, but, other than that, no wasn't me.
Sorry, but I hope you find her. :-)
Martha
[snip some stuff about why Herman Kauz' book is not recommened]
Mike Sigman
<mansu...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8lrkeh$54m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Martha,
> Was it you that once performed Taiji knife form with Mac the Knife in
> the bacground?
> Mans
>
That was Jane Hallender. Of "Inside Kung Fu" fame. Figures, don't it?
Mike
Joseph Brown
Mike Sigman wrote:
For great fun, you should check out Hallander's website. I don't mean her
taijiquan website. I mean her
OTHER website, the one in which she and her bird (I'm not kidding!!) claim
to find lost
animals through telepathy.
It takes ALL kinds. See, here's the problem. Lots of us (I'm a great
example) were, as kids, taken with
ESP, UFOs, magical martial arts powers, ancient astronauts, etc. But as
we grew older we grew up (and some of us, like me, turned our interests
from pseudoscience to science).
Other folks...didn't grow up.
Joseph
Mike Sigman
"Joseph Brown" <jbro...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3981D53E...@uswest.net...
>
> For great fun, you should check out Hallander's website. I don't mean her
> taijiquan website. I mean her
> OTHER website, the one in which she and her bird (I'm not kidding!!) claim
> to find lost
> animals through telepathy.
>
> It takes ALL kinds. See, here's the problem. Lots of us (I'm a great
> example) were, as kids, taken with
> ESP, UFOs, magical martial arts powers, ancient astronauts, etc. But as
> we grew older we grew up (and some of us, like me, turned our interests
> from pseudoscience to science).
>
> Other folks...didn't grow up.
They just got into Tai Cheee. :^)
I know a guy that was somewhat of a "name" in American taiji, but as more
and more knowledge has come to light about what Taiji really is, he's moved
more and more into "shamanism", where the light is still murky. :^)
Mike
Jamie Ruddy
Thank You for you endearing account of Herman,you be pleased to know that
Mr.Kauz still smiles with his eyes and teaches a calm UNCOMPETITIVE class
that encourages an environment conducive to learning.
Jamie168
"Cliff P." <xinst...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8lo3ms$imo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> shelves of Barnes & Noble over the years on Tai Chi by Herman Kauz.
>
> are be objective about your obsevations on his teaching and not
> personal, but I just wanted you and some of the other readers to know
> something about him as the teacher and man I knew a little bit about.
>
> Thanks for your time - and if you ever see Herman again, tell him Cliff
> from the Kings Highway Dojo say's hi.... and thank you. :)
>
>
JimS
>
>Cliff :
>Thank You for you endearing account of Herman,you be pleased to know that
>Mr.Kauz still smiles with his eyes and teaches a calm UNCOMPETITIVE class
>that encourages an environment conducive to learning.
Well, that's great and all, but we're really talking about the importance of learning
legit taijiquan skills or not. That's the bottom line. But hold on! Read on:
[snipped for brevity]
I kept most of this passage because it was so nice.
Some things just aren't worth arguing about.
A great tribute. My hat is off to you guys, and Herman Kauz.
Jim S.
Cliff P.
thanks Jamie! - I appreciate your response - nice to hear.
(sigh) Just wish there was some film on Herman doing his thing back
when....... I understand of course all of the purists arguments about
correct, correct, correct..... we all understand about correct postures
etc, and how injuries can occur without them..... I wish they'd let
that go in this particular thread because I explained his physical
limitations... this is about the man... not the stylist....And I'm by
no means saying that his books are 100% BUT....bottom line.... even
their jaws would drop a bit to see Herman in some serious sparring
along with a bit of nervous chuckle watching him work - and then
wondering if they would like to take a crack at him..... ooooo baby,
they have no idea..... LOL. Anyway, once again thanks......I think I
had my say bout Mr. Kauz - wont be posting anymore....
peace......
Mike Sigman
>
> (sigh) Just wish there was some film on Herman doing his thing back
> when....... I understand of course all of the purists arguments about
> correct, correct, correct..... we all understand about correct postures
> etc, and how injuries can occur without them..... I wish they'd let
> that go in this particular thread because I explained his physical
> limitations... this is about the man... not the stylist....And I'm by
> no means saying that his books are 100% BUT....bottom line.... even
> their jaws would drop a bit to see Herman in some serious sparring
> along with a bit of nervous chuckle watching him work - and then
> wondering if they would like to take a crack at him..... ooooo baby,
> they have no idea..... LOL. Anyway, once again thanks......I think I
> had my say bout Mr. Kauz - wont be posting anymore....
>
Unfortunately, these adoring posts of Herman Kauz don't really do a lot for
many people reading them. They are TOO adoring and have as little
persuasive power as too-negative posts. Unless Herman Kauz was the world's
greatest fighter, which I doubt, the stories you're telling simply come
across as worshipping-student stories. When you consider that the original
question at hand was about "good Taiji", then the response seems out of
place. I have an open mind about Herman Kauz and maybe someday I'll meet
him... but this kind of wax and polish from a student is actually offputting
to me and doesn't encourage me to think that I'll find something truly out
of the ordinary.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
JimS
says...
>
>> I wish they'd let
>> that go in this particular thread because I explained his physical
>> limitations... this is about the man... not the stylist....And I'm by
>> no means saying that his books are 100% BUT....bottom line.... even
>> their jaws would drop a bit to see Herman in some serious sparring
>> along with a bit of nervous chuckle watching him work - and then
>> wondering if they would like to take a crack at him..... ooooo baby,
>> they have no idea..... LOL. Anyway, once again thanks......I think I
>> had my say bout Mr. Kauz - wont be posting anymore....
>>
>
>Unfortunately, these adoring posts of Herman Kauz don't really do a lot for
>many people reading them. They are TOO adoring and have as little
>persuasive power as too-negative posts. Unless Herman Kauz was the world's
>greatest fighter, which I doubt, the stories you're telling simply come
>across as worshipping-student stories.
Not entirely. If folks want to complain about Kauz as a taiji teacher, that's
one thing, but remarks that he was quite a fighter is another consideration.
I've personally heard good things about Kauz as a scrapper too, and while this
is anecdotal stuff for me (I've never met him), it doesn't come across exactly as
hero-worship. You get a foreigner to stay as long as he did in the harsh physical
world of JKA headquaters in Japan, and I have little doubt the guy can duke.
And duke on a plane much higher than average.
>When you consider that the original question at hand was about "good Taiji", then
>the response seems out of place.
Yeah, granted. But Cliff wanted to share something about the man himself.
There hasn't been anything positive said about the guy, and if he's the scrapper
I've heard he is and Cliff is telling you about, then folks are getting a
one-sided picture of him as a martial artist, are they not?
>I have an open mind about Herman Kauz and maybe someday I'll meet
>him... but this kind of wax and polish from a student is actually offputting
>to me and doesn't encourage me to think that I'll find something truly out
>of the ordinary.
Taiji-wise? Shoot, those books I can't even take seriously, and I don't know anything.
JS
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike Sigman
>
>
Mike Sigman
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
news:8n8pj6$547$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
> >When you consider that the original question at hand was about "good
Taiji", then
> >the response seems out of place.
>
> Yeah, granted. But Cliff wanted to share something about the man himself.
> There hasn't been anything positive said about the guy, and if he's the
scrapper
> I've heard he is and Cliff is telling you about, then folks are getting a
> one-sided picture of him as a martial artist, are they not?
But the question was NOT about Kauz as a martial artist. The topic had to
do with Kauz and Taiji... look at the title. :^))) All I'm saying is that
too much hype actually doesn't help Kauz's reputation, regardless of what he
could really do.
Mike
mn...@my-deja.com
Hey Mike
Don't be a wuss .go there, play with the man, don't worry he wont hurt
you .But if your nice he might teach you a thing or two. Then make up
your mind . don't
wait until its to late. So you can then start your usual M.O. of telling
lies and seminating false information .
that's how one learns Tai Chi Chuan from doing, not reading
Mario
mna...@netscape.net
mn...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hey Mike
> Don't be a wuss .go there, play with the man, don't worry he wont hurt
> you .But if your nice he might teach you a thing or two. Then make up
> your mind . don't
> wait until its to late. So you can then start your usual M.O. of
telling
> lies and seminating false information .
> that's how one learns Tai Chi Chuan from doing, not reading
Yeah, that's how you learned punctuation, too. Right?
Matt.
Jamie Ruddy
lines of: This guy at my college teaches Tai Chi for free HIs Name is Herman
Kauz does anybody know his credentials and is his Tai Chi REAL?
"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
news:8n8pj6$547$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
Taiji", then
> >the response seems out of place.
>
> Yeah, granted. But Cliff wanted to share something about the man himself.
> There hasn't been anything positive said about the guy, and if he's the
scrapper
> I've heard he is and Cliff is telling you about, then folks are getting a
> one-sided picture of him as a martial artist, are they not?
>
Mike Sigman
<mn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ncm3m$2kr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Don't be a wuss .go there, play with the man, don't worry he wont hurt
> you .
Mario... we keep saying that about Chen Xiao Wang and John Carlo, right
there in NYC. And you won't go. Are you a wussy?????
>But if your nice he might teach you a thing or two. Then make up
> your mind . don't
> wait until its to late. So you can then start your usual M.O. of telling
> lies and seminating false information .
> that's how one learns Tai Chi Chuan from doing, not reading
Mario.... you don't know Taiji. Look at your teachers and your experience.
There are more than valid questions about all of it. You've been told by
many people that you don't do Taiji..... you won't get into that
conversation or tell us why you think you do Taiji or who really says you do
Taiji. You won't go there.
You keep talking about how people should learn Taiji implying that you have.
You haven't. You keep talking about the CMC style like you do it.... most
CMC'ers don't think you do.
Worry about yourself, lardball. Don't let your bulldog mouth overload your
chihuahua brain.
Mike Sigman
JimS
says...
>
>
>"JimS" <Jim.S...@Uchsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:8n8pj6$547$1...@Crestone.UCHSC.edu...
>
>Taiji", then
>> >the response seems out of place.
>>
>> Yeah, granted. But Cliff wanted to share something about the man himself.
>> There hasn't been anything positive said about the guy, and if he's the
>scrapper
>> I've heard he is and Cliff is telling you about, then folks are getting a
>> one-sided picture of him as a martial artist, are they not?
>
>do with Kauz and Taiji... look at the title. :^))) All I'm saying is that
>too much hype actually doesn't help Kauz's reputation, regardless of what he
>could really do.
>Mike
Well, too much negative hype doesn't help it either :-)))).
I just hope people don't automatically leap from "X's taiji sucks" to
"X sucks", that's all. It's an easy leap to make, but perhaps a bit unfair.
JS
Steve Gombosi
>and seminating false information .
Mike hasn't done that since he got married.
Steve
Mike Sigman
"Steve Gombosi" <s...@amaterasu.scd.ucar.edu> wrote in message
news:8nf40b$fm0$1...@amaterasu.scd.ucar.edu...
>
>
That's seed for a thought, indeed.
Mike
ari...@my-deja.com
mna...@netscape.net wrote:
> In article <8ncm3m$2kr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mn...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Hey Mike
> > Don't be a wuss .go there, play with the man, don't worry he wont
hurt
> > you .But if your nice he might teach you a thing or two. Then make
up
> > your mind . don't
> > wait until its to late. So you can then start your usual M.O. of
> telling
> > lies and seminating false information .
> > that's how one learns Tai Chi Chuan from doing, not reading
>
> Yeah, that's how you learned punctuation, too. Right?
>
> Matt.
> Punctuation?? Now there's an intelligent response. Sounds as if many
of you are jealous of Mario because of his high level of skill in taichi
mn...@my-deja.com
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <mn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ncm3m$2kr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
hurt
>
> Mario... we keep saying that about Chen Xiao Wang and John Carlo,
right
> there in NYC. And you won't go. Are you a wussy?????
Hey Mickey, As I've always said to you, you first, and there's a
thousand dollars in it for you if you win; and you still won't come!
What are you a man or a pussy? Pussy??
> Mike Sigman
Mario (still waiting for big bad Sickman).
biugung - OG
Where is Bike "backpedal" Sickman anyways?
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