Four Questions That Scares Mike Sigman!
Ben Holmes
chance.
>mike sigman:
>>>> there is an old saying in Chinese martial arts that you
>>>> don't fool with a shuai jiao player who has a "black" belt (meaning
>>>> that it is never washed and it turns black after years of practice)
>>>> and you don't mess with a spear-user who has a "black" spear (the
>>>> white waxwood turns black from the constant usage where the hands grip
>>>> and slide).
#1: How can an "old saying" about the color of a belt demonstrating the length
of time someone has practiced a martial art - develop in a society that has
never used the color of a belt to indicate *ANYTHING AT ALL*?
#2: Do you suppose that Chinese martial artist's have some mystical connection
with belts?
#3: They wash their clothes, but mysteriously refuse to wash the belt?
#4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious behavior?
Mike Sigman
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Mike has had several opportunities to answer these questions... here's
another
> chance.
>
>
>
> #1: How can an "old saying" about the color of a belt demonstrating the
length
> of time someone has practiced a martial art - develop in a society that
has
> never used the color of a belt to indicate *ANYTHING AT ALL*?
>
A pair of worn-out denim jeans can mean a number of things, one of which is
that the wearer is "cool". Is that a ranking or simply a comment that has
nothing to do with ranking? Is it somehow different from "you cannot wear
a worn-out pair of jeans unless you have met the criteria for roping at one
the professional rodeo circuit"?
> #2: Do you suppose that Chinese martial artist's have some mystical
connection
> with belts?
No. That is your own invention and contribution to a topic that you don't
like and are trying to disparage.
>
> #3: They wash their clothes, but mysteriously refuse to wash the belt?
And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted spear,
but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is the
point of a stupid question like this?
>
> #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
behavior?
>
This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did the
American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?), yet other people are slow
to mention your name as representative of good judo. Can you cite a reason
for this behaviour?
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> Mike has had several opportunities to answer these questions... here's
>> another chance.
Mike also snipped his original words again... here they are, put back
in:
>mike sigman:
>>>> there is an old saying in Chinese martial arts that you
>>>> don't fool with a shuai jiao player who has a "black" belt (meaning
>>>> that it is never washed and it turns black after years of practice)
>>>> and you don't mess with a spear-user who has a "black" spear (the
>>>> white waxwood turns black from the constant usage where the hands grip
>>>> and slide).
>
>> #1: How can an "old saying" about the color of a belt demonstrating the
>> length of time someone has practiced a martial art - develop in a society that
>> has never used the color of a belt to indicate *ANYTHING AT ALL*?
>
>A pair of worn-out denim jeans can mean a number of things, one of which is
>that the wearer is "cool".
Not an answer to the question... please review the question again.
>Is that a ranking or simply a comment that has
>nothing to do with ranking?
There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER in my question that referred in any way to
"rank".
Please answer the question, not your strawmen...
>Is it somehow different from "you cannot wear
>a worn-out pair of jeans unless you have met the criteria for roping at one
>the professional rodeo circuit"?
Why can't you *answer* the question? Giving analogies that don't
correspond with the question being asked is just a way to avoid the
question again...
>> #2: Do you suppose that Chinese martial artist's have some mystical
>> connection with belts?
>
>No. That is your own invention and contribution to a topic that you don't
>like and are trying to disparage.
Thankyou... you actually *answered* a question. If the Chinese
martial artist's have no "mystical connection" with their belts, then
YOU are going to have to locate some other reason for the strange
failure to wash their belts...
>> #3: They wash their clothes, but mysteriously refuse to wash the belt?
>
>And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted spear,
>but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is the
>point of a stupid question like this?
You've already answered above that the Chinese have no "mystical
connection" to their belts. Now you'd like to claim that they do?
Just what impels them to refuse to wash their belts? Why won't you
answer this question? Does it scare you?
>> #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
>behavior?
No answer?? Does this question scare you, Mike? How about this...
change the question to:
"Can you cite ANY WRITTEN SOURCE WHATSOEVER to this behavior by
Chinese martial artists?"
Perhaps that will be less frightening...
>This is what I mean. You need some professional help.
Ah! So anyone who asks for a source or citation needs "professional
help".
Presumably, this would indicate that WCC Hu is currently incarcerated
in a sanitarium... he dealt *far* more with citations than I'm asking
for here...
But in reality... you have just avoided answering a question. You
make an assertion that you can't cite, source, or back up. One that
doesn't even make sense.
>You are self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo"
What does a comment like this have to do with YOUR assertion?
>(where did the American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?),
You claim to be a black belt in Judo, yet you don't know how to locate
this information?
>yet other people are slow to mention your name as representative
>of good judo.
Ad hominem...
>Can you cite a reason for this behaviour?
Sure... you don't know any Judoka. Other than the cowards you assert
have been in email contact with you.
>Mike Sigman
Anyway, nice to see you "answer" these questions... you actually
provided an answer to *one* of them.
Peter Claussen
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted spear,
> but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is the
> point of a stupid question like this?
>
Are you sure the black-hafted spear reference comes from China? I did a
quick search on Google, and the only hits for "black-hafted spear" come
from D&D, Lord of the Rings type sites.
For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
> >
> > #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
> behavior?
> >
>
> This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
> self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did the
> American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?),
And what does that matter? Just a gratuitous dig at judo? The placing
of the National Team is really only as important as your preference on
the sport-vs-martial-art debate. It's not surprising, really, that the
U.S. does not place well in international competition - there are
relatively few elite level competitions in the U.S. compared to Europe
and Asia.
FWIW (Since E. Amdur, elsewhere, suggested a fourth place finish for
the Chinese) - if you bother to look at the 2000 Olympics results, the
Chinese team placed in the total medal count, behind Japan (8), France
(6), Korea and Cuba (5) and tied with Italy for 4 (Brazil took 2
medals).
However, all four medals were won by the women's team. The men's team
did worse than the U.S. with 1 seventh place finish, vs 1 fifth and 2
seventh finishes.
Peter Claussen
Mike Sigman
"Peter Claussen" <bo...@itctel.com> wrote in message
news:140620030744036967%bo...@itctel.com...
> In article <vekqffk...@corp.supernews.com>, Mike Sigman
> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > "Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> > news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> > And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted
spear,
> > but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is
the
> > point of a stupid question like this?
> >
>
> Are you sure the black-hafted spear reference comes from China? I did a
> quick search on Google, and the only hits for "black-hafted spear" come
> from D&D, Lord of the Rings type sites.
>
> For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is. You can
choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known... if you
want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
place.
>
> > >
> > > #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
> > behavior?
> > >
> >
> > This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
> > self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did
the
> > American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?),
>
> And what does that matter? Just a gratuitous dig at judo?
I've asked the question before with no response.
The placing
> of the National Team is really only as important as your preference on
> the sport-vs-martial-art debate. It's not surprising, really, that the
> U.S. does not place well in international competition - there are
> relatively few elite level competitions in the U.S. compared to Europe
> and Asia.
>
Maybe the American "teachers" aren't as expert as they think they are.
Looking at the level of discourse I'm getting from some who have bragged
about their "qualifications", I'm getting a picture that isn't too bright.
> FWIW (Since E. Amdur, elsewhere, suggested a fourth place finish for
> the Chinese) - if you bother to look at the 2000 Olympics results, the
> Chinese team placed in the total medal count, behind Japan (8), France
> (6), Korea and Cuba (5) and tied with Italy for 4 (Brazil took 2
> medals).
>
> However, all four medals were won by the women's team. The men's team
> did worse than the U.S. with 1 seventh place finish, vs 1 fifth and 2
> seventh finishes.
Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing under
those rules. In respect to the Chinese and international competitions, I
don't particularly pull for them, but I am disturbed by their level of focus
and work to get what they want. I'm too well aware that the Chinese once
considered themselves rulers of all lesser people... and I don't think that
attitude has ever gone away.
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Peter Claussen" <bo...@itctel.com> wrote in message
>news:140620030744036967%bo...@itctel.com...
>> In article <vekqffk...@corp.supernews.com>, Mike Sigman
>> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > "Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>> > news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>> > And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted
>spear,
>> > but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is
>the
>> > point of a stupid question like this?
>> >
>>
>> Are you sure the black-hafted spear reference comes from China? I did a
>> quick search on Google, and the only hits for "black-hafted spear" come
>> from D&D, Lord of the Rings type sites.
>>
>> For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
>> support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
>> black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
>> don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>
>I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is. You can
>choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
>with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known...
Not, however, something that Mike can cite a reference for.
>if you
>want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
>common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
>place.
>
>> > > #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
>> > behavior?
>> > >
>> >
>> > This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
>> > self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did
>the
>> > American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?),
>>
>> And what does that matter? Just a gratuitous dig at judo?
>
>I've asked the question before with no response.
>
>> The placing
>> of the National Team is really only as important as your preference on
>> the sport-vs-martial-art debate. It's not surprising, really, that the
>> U.S. does not place well in international competition - there are
>> relatively few elite level competitions in the U.S. compared to Europe
>> and Asia.
>
>Maybe the American "teachers" aren't as expert as they think they are.
>Looking at the level of discourse I'm getting from some who have bragged
>about their "qualifications", I'm getting a picture that isn't too bright.
Another *excellent* demonstration of Mike's ignorance on Judo.
There are reasons for the level of American Judo... the competence of
Judo instruction is *not* one of them.
As for the level of discourse... when you're talking to someone who
couldn't describe the difference between Osotogari and Osotogake, and
when to use each technique, you're obviously not going to end up with
a high level of "discourse".
>> FWIW (Since E. Amdur, elsewhere, suggested a fourth place finish for
>> the Chinese) - if you bother to look at the 2000 Olympics results, the
>> Chinese team placed in the total medal count, behind Japan (8), France
>> (6), Korea and Cuba (5) and tied with Italy for 4 (Brazil took 2
>> medals).
>>
>> However, all four medals were won by the women's team. The men's team
>> did worse than the U.S. with 1 seventh place finish, vs 1 fifth and 2
>> seventh finishes.
>
>Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing under
>those rules.
Why not? Did China not have any Judo when other countries did? Or
are they just slower to catch on?
>In respect to the Chinese and international competitions, I
>don't particularly pull for them, but I am disturbed by their level of focus
>and work to get what they want. I'm too well aware that the Chinese once
>considered themselves rulers of all lesser people...
Something to keep in mind as we note of how well you've embraced
Chinese culture...
>and I don't think that attitude has ever gone away.
No, it hasn't.
>Mike Sigman
Teabag
> >>
> >> For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> >> support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> >> black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> >> don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
> >
> >I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is.
and the distinction is??
> >You can
> >choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
> >with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known...
>
> Not, however, something that Mike can cite a reference for.
>
Let's look at this in slow motion instant replay:
"I'm not sharing any useful information with your lot, if I can help
it."
Ben, I'm surprised you missed this.
> >if you
> >want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
> >common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
> >place.
Does someone want to ask Mike, who gives the impression to a
reasonable person of a non-Chinese reader, WHICH Chinese websites? I
don't. I wouldn't even try to ask him for even one Chinese language
website which would back up this explanation.
> >Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing under
> >those rules.
So were they practicing some sort of "combat judo"? or "aerobic
judocize"? How do you practice a sport without following the rules?
Arr velly creal now, honolaber Mr. Sigman.
The Japanese send their pistol team to other countries to practice
shooting, so the Chinese should be able to send their judo team to
other countries to practice judo. Your argument doesn't hold up. The
Chinese just haven't done as well as they would have liked (and I
haven't even researched that, just assumed that it's true since Mike
and Ben seem to agree on it).
> >In respect to the Chinese and international competitions, I
> >don't particularly pull for them, but I am disturbed by their level of focus
> >and work to get what they want. I'm too well aware that the Chinese once
> >considered themselves rulers of all lesser people...
Are you suggesting that they are, will, or might use banned
substances such as some steroids? Like other Communist countries'
Olympic programs? Is that what "disturbs" you? Or is it something
darker?
Mario
Teabag wrote:
> Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message news:<8nvmevo41p6n17j7d...@4ax.com>...
>
>>On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:20:52 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
>
>
>>>In respect to the Chinese and international competitions, I
>>>don't particularly pull for them, but I am disturbed by their level of focus
>>>and work to get what they want. I'm too well aware that the Chinese once
>>>considered themselves rulers of all lesser people...
>>
>
> Are you suggesting that they are, will, or might use banned
> substances such as some steroids? Like other Communist countries'
> Olympic programs? Is that what "disturbs" you? Or is it something
> darker?
The Chinese diving team and gymnastic olympic programs, are in the
hot seat these days, regarding their belated over use of steroids!
M.
>
>
>
Ben Holmes
>Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message news:<8nvmevo41p6n17j7d...@4ax.com>...
>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:20:52 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
>> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >> For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
>> >> support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
>> >> black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
>> >> don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>> >
>> >I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is.
>
> and the distinction is??
>
>> >You can
>> >choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
>> >with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known...
>>
>> Not, however, something that Mike can cite a reference for.
>>
>
>Let's look at this in slow motion instant replay:
>
>"I'm not sharing any useful information with your lot, if I can help
>it."
>
> Ben, I'm surprised you missed this.
I have hung my head in shame, and have lightly rapped the back of my
left hand twice in penance.
I suppose that it's nice to see Mike Sigman being honest.
>> >if you
>> >want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
>> >common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
>> >place.
>
> Does someone want to ask Mike, who gives the impression to a
>reasonable person of a non-Chinese reader, WHICH Chinese websites? I
>don't. I wouldn't even try to ask him for even one Chinese language
>website which would back up this explanation.
Common sense would tell you that if Mike *really* wanted to make his
point, he would have *listed* the website URL. Sorta like this:
http://www.bestjudo.com/article25.shtml
>> >Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing under
>> >those rules.
>
> So were they practicing some sort of "combat judo"? or "aerobic
>judocize"? How do you practice a sport without following the rules?
>Arr velly creal now, honolaber Mr. Sigman.
>
> The Japanese send their pistol team to other countries to practice
>shooting, so the Chinese should be able to send their judo team to
>other countries to practice judo. Your argument doesn't hold up. The
>Chinese just haven't done as well as they would have liked (and I
>haven't even researched that, just assumed that it's true since Mike
>and Ben seem to agree on it).
I doubt that you could honestly claim that *any* country has done as
well in international Judo competition as they would have wished... :)
Mike Sigman
"Teabag" <teab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:31900951.0306...@posting.google.com...
>
> The Japanese send their pistol team to other countries to practice
> shooting, so the Chinese should be able to send their judo team to
> other countries to practice judo. Your argument doesn't hold up. The
> Chinese just haven't done as well as they would have liked (and I
> haven't even researched that, just assumed that it's true since Mike
> and Ben seem to agree on it).
I equivalent to why the U.S. was so slow to do anything internationally at
soccer... it just wasn't the game that most Americans played, for
generations.
>
> > >In respect to the Chinese and international competitions, I
> > >don't particularly pull for them, but I am disturbed by their level of
focus
> > >and work to get what they want. I'm too well aware that the Chinese
once
> > >considered themselves rulers of all lesser people...
>
> Are you suggesting that they are, will, or might use banned
> substances such as some steroids? Like other Communist countries'
> Olympic programs? Is that what "disturbs" you? Or is it something
> darker?
Have you been taking logic lessons from Ben and Tom Story?????????????
Mike
ordosclan
> A pair of worn-out denim jeans can mean a number of things, one of which is
> that the wearer is "cool". Is that a ranking or simply a comment that has
> nothing to do with ranking? Is it somehow different from "you cannot wear
> a worn-out pair of jeans unless you have met the criteria for roping at one
> the professional rodeo circuit"?
White is the "holy" color because priests peform works ie: Bloody
sacrifice. The lack of "inner seriousness" while practicing rituals
(Ref: Li hexagram). Introduce yourself to the concept of a metafor.
The superficial is what you "see" which shows you a structure/system
underneath. Other so called religons like catholicism replace blood
with wine.
But it still stands true. A priest with red stains all over his white
clothing..... Kind of like the home team/away team deal. Away team
wears black, and the home team wear white because the white uniforms
would be dirtyed through traveling. Its "tradition" and knowing it
prevents you from being ridiculed as a PEASANT.
This idea has been perverted all throughout history (by those that
dont know the sacred tradition reserved only for the noble
priesthood). "White is superior". "People with dark skin are evil".
The vedic caste system is more than just COLOR. These misconceptions
are called dogma. Common people are not supposed to understand them.
Thats why they have to rely on priests/shaman to perform the works.
> > #2: Do you suppose that Chinese martial artist's have some mystical
> connection
> > with belts?
>
> No. That is your own invention and contribution to a topic that you don't
> like and are trying to disparage.
A simple no answer wasnt enough? He asked clearly: "Are we to
understand your presupposition that chinese have mystical connection
to belts?" I think along with.. ahem.. other bodily functions, vision
and memory are things your losing with old age....
> > #3: They wash their clothes, but mysteriously refuse to wash the belt?
>
> And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted spear,
> but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is the
> point of a stupid question like this?
Have you ever seen anyone with a "black shafted spear"? How exactly
does it get black shafted? And this blackness spreads over the entire
spear from base to tip? Was the protective coating removed? Was the
process of treating in tung oil omitted? Are we talking about a spear
or lance? There is this great character in chinese which proceeds an
utterance to denote a RHETORICAL question. I'm hope your smart enough
here to figure this out without needing a semiphore to point out the
obvious.
> > #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
> behavior?
> >
>
> This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
> self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did the
> American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?), yet other people are slow
> to mention your name as representative of good judo. Can you cite a reason
> for this behaviour?
>
>
> Mike Sigman
Doesnt answer his question. Where have they found spears with
mysterious black shafts? Oh, I suppose those soilders werent training
as hard as the peerless kung fu fighters were. Makes sense.
You may recall that Shuai jiao has BELT EXERCISES (i'm hoping you know
this). The belt is used in different ways for training the arms and
body. How does this "black belt" deal change when the person
graduates to leather straps and chains?
Your familiar with the term "belt cracking"? To "prove" the criteria
for your comments, explain your knowlege of belt exercises in chinese
wrestling.
ordosclan
> >Is that a ranking or simply a comment that has
> >nothing to do with ranking?
>
> There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER in my question that referred in any way to
> "rank".
This is funny. Belts were used neither for ranking nor for "holding
your trousers up". The belt exercises are done using ones own belt.
If they were holding up your pants they would simply fall off. Judoka
dont put on their gi's and play with their belts before class. The
belt in the modern shuai jiao uniform is not really a belt. Its a
"button" that holds the two flaps in front closed. Paoting uses a
tigher uniform so its more important here to have flaps that arent
hanging out too much...
If they were for rank, why would the styles that dont WEAR belts use
belt exercises for? Within the classification of "chinese wrestling"
each style uses its own uniform, its not like japanese martial arts.
The belt exercises predate the use of the shuai jiao uniform. They
also mark evolution of the style. Steel or iron for chains wasnt
available before the bronze age, cloth or leather was used....
Caterbro
> This is funny. Belts were used neither for ranking nor for "holding
> your trousers up". The belt exercises are done using ones own belt.
> If they were holding up your pants they would simply fall off. Judoka
are these belt exercises distaff cousins to ribbon dances?
ordosclan
> I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is. You can
> choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
> with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known... if you
> want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
> common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
> place.
A nessessity to using "chinese language" sites is to use some kind of
encoding. A chinese os is not 100% cross-compatable. For example,
Winmx is popular in japan, but you cant download any of their files
because your OS will not allow the special characters on your hard
drive. Because the japanese OS is different than windows with chinese
support. Just one of those things. However, i've found it impossible
to download a mp3 with chinese encoding and transfer it across the
network without first deleting the encoding first. You cant even
rename over the network. Copy and move does not work eaither. And
this of course is assuming there is at least some ASCII in the
filename.
They are more screwed than us because the japanese cannot download
ANYTHING with ascii in it. Their OS does not support it.
There is a chinese ICQ= OICQ. Most of the overseas chinese I know are
using a MSN messenger that can use chinese characters in their MSN
messenger/MSN profile but the characters show up in mine as ??. I
tryed pasting the encoding and it didnt work on my computer. It
doesnt work peer-to-peer eaither. And the characters MSN can display
in the chat window dont effing save in the chat log (chats log with a
plugin). Its just a bunch of ??????????. You know why that is? You
should...
And none of the frontends like NJWIN work for that kind of thing. So
dont even bother mentioning them.
Pinyin? What widely used "chinese language" website uses pinyin as
its primary language? Oh and please do give us that chinese proverb
in chinese encoding. Is this going to be BIG5 or GB or Unicode (god i
hate unicode).
This kind of things come up before and its rather silly. In order to
use a chinese search engine you have to:
1) Be able to display chinese characters
You can display chinese characters in Big5 and GB on your computer,
most of the time using a decoder which changes those funny characters
to chinese characters on your screen.
2) Be able to READ chinese
3) Be able to TYPE in chinese and INPUT chinese with your keyboard
This is a big one guys so take notes. You see when you type on a
regular keyboard these words come out like this: "dont you feel
stupid"
Not like this:
中国名将评述
How your able to use a chinese search engine and enter in chinese a
search and come across a proverb or dit da jow formula in chinese
characters without the plugins and software and fonts and requisite
knowlege.....
Puzzling..
Anyways, on to this chinese common saying from "chinese language
website" that warns the general public to fear a shuai jiao guy with a
black belt.....
Tee hee hee hee hee hee
ordosclan
> > >You can
> > >choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
> > >with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known...
> >
> > Not, however, something that Mike can cite a reference for.
> >
>
> Let's look at this in slow motion instant replay:
>
> "I'm not sharing any useful information with your lot, if I can help
> it."
>
> Ben, I'm surprised you missed this.
Maybe, maybe not. Its just another sickman cliche. "I have so much
wisdom, I just dont feel like putting out the mental and physical
effort in telling anyone about any of it"
Or he's protecting his commercial interests from the dreaded
"information pump" which is him really mistaking a question/statement
as someone trying to call him on his bullshit.
He's used the classic "burden of proof" argument only when its
convienent of him to do so. This reminds me of a classic
atheist/theist argument:
Atheist: "God doesnt exist" Theist: "Yes he does..." Atheist: "I've
seen no evidence..." Theist: "He exists and thats why we believe in
him" Atheist: "Well the burden of proof lies on the person making the
assertion" Theist: "Yes, the burden of proof lies on you because you
made the assertion"
Extreme example because there really cant be a right or wrong. But
its classic. Sit there all passive and all-knowing and wait for
someone to "bring up" an issue. Then say: "Oh, well its up to you to
prove X and X and X" Is the "burden of proof" an idea that rests
soley on the priority of inquiry? "Who asked first"?
I think not. That is why we have this other great idea (amongst
others) called the VERIFICATION OF ADHERENCE. Its voluntary and
should not have to be pulled out or beat out of someone... Very
simple concept.
The question is no longer if god exists or not but who is a good
christian? You think that the world of non-christians (and other
faiths) are so blind to see that most protestants commit 6 days of sin
and one holy day of rest prepares them for a seat in heaven? By faith
alone?
Its not just an atheist attack. Its a valid theistic issue amongst
denominations. "Verify that your adhering" to the conventions of what
your using to show to the world as a form of "credibility"
This in essence is a contradiction because verity(noun) is
diametrically opposed to credibility. The harder you push Credibility
the more it undermines Verity.
You want to talk about chinese proverbs siggie (yes, lots of people
call you siggie behind your back, thats why I use it):
"The more you try to impress with your hard work, the less impressive
you become"
That sums up my last few sentences pretty well. He who laughs last
didnt get the joke.
Mike Sigman
"ordosclan" <ordo...@mail.china.com> wrote in message
news:2f7acb78.0306...@posting.google.com...
>
> Doesnt answer his question. Where have they found spears with
> mysterious black shafts? Oh, I suppose those soilders werent training
> as hard as the peerless kung fu fighters were. Makes sense.
>
> You may recall that Shuai jiao has BELT EXERCISES (i'm hoping you know
> this). The belt is used in different ways for training the arms and
> body. How does this "black belt" deal change when the person
> graduates to leather straps and chains?
>
> Your familiar with the term "belt cracking"? To "prove" the criteria
> for your comments, explain your knowlege of belt exercises in chinese
> wrestling.
Interesting. I thought about mentioning the belt-snapping (it could be
called "belt cracking", too, so I'm not arguing your terms) exercises
earlier on, but I've only seen a few Japanese judoka do them in my life so I
thought I would be wasting my time talking to these people. I think
anyone who has been around shuai jiao the least bit is familiar with these
sorts of exercises, to some degree. I was going to comment on the
usefulness of training with an obi in this fashion but I decided not to.
However, shuai jiao is easy to come across... really good spear play is
not... but still you should be aware of the black haft of a spear that has
gotten a lot of usage. Even some of my spears and poles pick up the
blackened haft, and I don't consider myself an expert.
Mike
Mike Sigman
>
> Maybe, maybe not. Its just another sickman cliche. "I have so much
> wisdom, I just dont feel like putting out the mental and physical
> effort in telling anyone about any of it"
If you tell someone that "green belt" signifies a lower ranking in many
martial arts and they ask you to support that with cites, sources, and
bibliography it gets a little old and a waste of time, right? If you're at
the point in a discussion where generally *basic* knowledge is always being
discussed and questioned minutely, it's a waste of time. If I don't want
to waste time with fairly obvious stuff and you call it "wisdom", etc., what
does that say about you, O Oracle?
So why were you unaware of something basic like the blackened haft of a
well-used spear?
Mike Sigman
ordosclan
> > Are you suggesting that they are, will, or might use banned
> > substances such as some steroids? Like other Communist countries'
> > Olympic programs? Is that what "disturbs" you? Or is it something
> > darker?
>
> The Chinese diving team and gymnastic olympic programs, are in the
> hot seat these days, regarding their belated over use of steroids!
>
> M.
With little proof. The swim team because the girls "look" odd...
Thats proof they take steroids. Right.
Mike Sigman
"Caterbro" <cate...@fingol.com> wrote in message
news:0sQ7+$M...@netnews.attbi.com...
Grab an obi that fits you personally (you don't want one that's too short),
fold it in half with one hand holding close to the fold and the other hand
holding close to the 2 ends. The "2-ends" end will stick out an inch or two
from one hand and the "fold" end will stick out from the other hand. Bring
the hands somewhat together so a gap forms between the 2 strands of the belt
and snap them by jerking the hands apart. This will give you a rudimentary
idea of one exercise. There are a number that involve, in different
positions, etc., "snapping" the obi like this. It is a common shuai jiao
exercise. I've seen some judoka in Japan and Okinawa do them, also.
FWIW
Mike
Mario
i don't know what you mean by little proof. when a hand full girls
( champions), from the swim team and diving team , were tested and
failed miserably is called little proof! the i'm with you it was just a
little proof!:-))
M.
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Teabag" <teab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:31900951.0306...@posting.google.com...
>
>> The Japanese send their pistol team to other countries to practice
>> shooting, so the Chinese should be able to send their judo team to
>> other countries to practice judo. Your argument doesn't hold up. The
>> Chinese just haven't done as well as they would have liked (and I
>> haven't even researched that, just assumed that it's true since Mike
>> and Ben seem to agree on it).
>
>I equivalent to why the U.S. was so slow to do anything internationally at
>soccer... it just wasn't the game that most Americans played, for
>generations.
That has *nothing* to do with it.
Soccer ability, just as Taiji ability, is not passed genetically.
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"ordosclan" <ordo...@mail.china.com> wrote in message
>news:2f7acb78.03061...@posting.google.com...
>> teab...@hotmail.com (Teabag) wrote in message
>news:<31900951.0306...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not. Its just another sickman cliche. "I have so much
>> wisdom, I just dont feel like putting out the mental and physical
>> effort in telling anyone about any of it"
>
>If you tell someone that "green belt" signifies a lower ranking in many
>martial arts and they ask you to support that with cites, sources, and
>bibliography it gets a little old and a waste of time, right?
When you try to imply that you're merely refusing to supply cites
because it's a waste of your time, then you're merely lying. You
can't supply cites, because THERE ARE NONE.
But, on to your "green belt" example:
http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm
http://www.gojukai.com/rank.htm
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/07_coloranks.html
http://www.redshift.com/~mjacobi/belts.html
http://filebox.vt.edu/org/ikc/rankreq.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/senso_ryu/
http://www.itatkd.com/ihfmintime.html
http://www.renshinkan-usa.com/rankreqs.html
Okay, Mike... your turn. Kindly supply a cite for your allegation
that there was an "old saying" about dirty belts indicating length of
training, and do your best to put the cite before 1882.
Or, if that one is too difficult for you... try finding a single
martial arts scholar or Japanese historian who agrees with you that
Judo is derived from Shuai Chiao, or from CYY's teachings.
>If you're at
>the point in a discussion where generally *basic* knowledge is always being
>discussed and questioned minutely, it's a waste of time.
Discussing who first formulated the belt system of ranking, or
asserting that jujutsu derived from CYY's teaching - are *not* the
'basic' knowledge you seem to think it is. Perhaps this is why you
can't *cite* for it.
>If I don't want to waste time with fairly obvious stuff
Yep... everyone here is well-aware of how you don't want to "waste
your time" on these 'discussions'.
Zolly Skocic
> Grab an obi that fits you personally (you don't want one that's too
short),
> fold it in half with one hand holding close to the fold and the other hand
> holding close to the 2 ends. The "2-ends" end will stick out an inch or
two
> from one hand and the "fold" end will stick out from the other hand.
Bring
> the hands somewhat together so a gap forms between the 2 strands of the
belt
> and snap them by jerking the hands apart. This will give you a
rudimentary
> idea of one exercise. There are a number that involve, in different
> positions, etc., "snapping" the obi like this. It is a common shuai jiao
> exercise. I've seen some judoka in Japan and Okinawa do them, also.
What is that exercise for?
Zolly
Mike Sigman
> >
> >I think it's equivalent to why the U.S. was so slow to do anything
internationally at
> >soccer... it just wasn't the game that most Americans played, for
> >generations.
>
> That has *nothing* to do with it.
>
> Soccer ability, just as Taiji ability, is not passed genetically.
You really have some sort of reading/thinking disorder, don't you? If you
didn't grow up playing a sport and few people play the sport, the pool of
good candidates is limited.
Mike
Mike Sigman
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 16:29:28 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
>
> When you try to imply that you're merely refusing to supply cites
> because it's a waste of your time, then you're merely lying. You
> can't supply cites, because THERE ARE NONE.
>
> But, on to your "green belt" example:
[[snip cites]]
That's the difference between you and me, Holmes. I know things; you don't
know much but you have a bunch of cites handy. I can find you cites that
tell us the earth is flat... quite a few, actually.... however I KNOW the
earth is not flat.
>
> Okay, Mike... your turn. Kindly supply a cite for your allegation
> that there was an "old saying" about dirty belts indicating length of
> training, and do your best to put the cite before 1882.
You missed the point of all the above, didn't you? Back to repeating the
same stuff ad nauseum.
>
> Or, if that one is too difficult for you... try finding a single
> martial arts scholar or Japanese historian who agrees with you that
> Judo is derived from Shuai Chiao, or from CYY's teachings.
>
You really don't learn.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
"Zolly Skocic" <zsk...@shawrmthis.ca> wrote in message
news:EVcHa.208368$3C2.6...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Well, let's just take the example where the snapping is done in front of the
body. It will strengthen the arms all around to the midpoint of the back.
There are a number of variations and they will increase your sudden-strength
in a number of ranges, among other things.
Mike
Badger North
wrote:
>For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
>support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
>black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
>don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
enamoured with spear work.
Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
news:3eedd2de...@news21.bellnet.ca...
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:44:03 -0500, Peter Claussen <bo...@itctel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> >support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> >black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> >don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>
> Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
> on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
> With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
> which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
>
> Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
> where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
> enamoured with spear work.
And since real spear-practice involves a lot of twisting and sliding with
both hands, the shaft becomes blackened. But, I dunno.... some of this
stuff is too obvious to waste time talking about, IMO.
Mike
Badger North
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
>> >support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
>> >black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
>> >don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>>
>> Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
>> on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
>> With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
>> which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
>>
>> Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
>> where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
>> enamoured with spear work.
>
>And since real spear-practice involves a lot of twisting and sliding with
>both hands, the shaft becomes blackened. But, I dunno.... some of this
>stuff is too obvious to waste time talking about, IMO.
Well, for those who have never been exposed to Chinese spear work,
I'll fill in the gap as best I can.
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
And I appreciate it, Badger. However, someone could have just asked
instead of starting off with an "attitude" about proving the existence of
blackened spears. :^)))
Mike
Ben Holmes
Particularly when you can't back it up when challenged...
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:0jeqevkqg017l8ep8...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 16:29:28 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
>
>> When you try to imply that you're merely refusing to supply cites
>> because it's a waste of your time, then you're merely lying. You
>> can't supply cites, because THERE ARE NONE.
>>
>> But, on to your "green belt" example:
>
>[[snip cites]]
>
>That's the difference between you and me, Holmes. I know things;
Apparently not... at least, not things that *other* people "know".
>you don't know much but you have a bunch of cites handy.
Or perhaps things I state are not *unknown* to other people. I make an effort
to differentiate between my opinion, and what is considered mainstream fact by
the Judo community.
And point out that you *can't* do the same.
>I can find you cites that tell us the earth is flat... quite a few,
>actually.... however I KNOW the earth is not flat.
Implying that cites are available, but you just don't want to take the time to
*give* them, is your purpose here.
I'm just pointing out that it's untrue.
The discussion is *not* on the flatness of the earth, but rather YOUR
assertions.
>> Okay, Mike... your turn. Kindly supply a cite for your allegation
>> that there was an "old saying" about dirty belts indicating length of
>> training, and do your best to put the cite before 1882.
>
>You missed the point of all the above, didn't you? Back to repeating the
>same stuff ad nauseum.
Nah... that's your problem Mike, I didn't miss the point you were making at all.
That's why I took the time to give cites that don't interest anyone. Just to
demonstrate that YOU can't do the same with your assertions.
>> Or, if that one is too difficult for you... try finding a single
>> martial arts scholar or Japanese historian who agrees with you that
>> Judo is derived from Shuai Chiao, or from CYY's teachings.
>
>You really don't learn.
It's not a *point* of "learning". I already KNOW that you can't supply such a
cite. I'm merely driving the point home to any and all lurkers... so that they
know that your assertions are unsupportable.
As I will continue to do...
>Mike Sigman
Badger North
>>> >For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
>>> >support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
>>> >black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
>>> >don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>>>
>>> Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
>>> on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
>>> With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
>>> which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
>>>
>>> Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
>>> where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
>>> enamoured with spear work.
>>
>>And since real spear-practice involves a lot of twisting and sliding with
>>both hands, the shaft becomes blackened. But, I dunno.... some of this
>>stuff is too obvious to waste time talking about, IMO.
>
>Particularly when you can't back it up when challenged...
Well, the blackened spear shaft is pretty obscure, I'll grant that,
but it isn't so far fetched as to be unbelievable. Plenty of CMA
aphorisms that I'd have a hell of a time finding an online cite for.
"Keep your spear bent and your whip chain straight" comes to mind.
Mike Sigman
>
> >> Or, if that one is too difficult for you... try finding a single
> >> martial arts scholar or Japanese historian who agrees with you that
> >> Judo is derived from Shuai Chiao, or from CYY's teachings.
> >
> >You really don't learn.
>
> It's not a *point* of "learning". I already KNOW that you can't supply
such a
> cite. I'm merely driving the point home to any and all lurkers... so that
they
> know that your assertions are unsupportable.
>
> As I will continue to do...
The only thing you're driving home is that you're a moron. You now have
numerous cites from respected Japanese documents saying exactly what I've
told you. We've been through this. You are so dumb that you keep asking
for the names of historians that use those cites, rather than countering the
cites themselves. So far you have not countered a single cite with anything
other than the feeble *opinion* of some western martial artists who are
trying to double as historians. In other words, you're too dumb to know
when you're beat. And that's all you're reinforcing to any "lurkers".
You are one of those morons that thinks if you say something enough times it
will somehow be accepted as correct.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
Or "Keep your pecker up and your dobber down". Fine old sayings like that.
:^)
Frankly, I wouldn't bother explaining a statement about the blackened shaft
of a spear. It's sort of like the ante to a poker game... if you ain't got
that minimum, you don't belong in the game. And to people with real spear
experience, this whole conversation is not about an "obscure saying", it's
about the obvious that a lot of people already know as ho-hum basic data.
It falls into the "white guy" category of discussions that are so
reminiscent of 13-year-olds sitting around impressing each other with how
much they know about "sex".
Mike
Ben Holmes
Yes... perhaps this explains why everyone is laughing at your suggestion that
the idea for belt ranks derived from an "old saying" of the Chinese...
Ben Holmes
young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom says...
But surely you'd think that the origin of belt rank systems is a tad more
documented than that, wouldn't you? Nor do I restrict things to online cites...
they are actually not nearly as good as the available literature. (Nor, in many
cases, as believable)
And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black belt
came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented *somewhere*.
Mike Sigman
>
> And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black
belt
> came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented
*somewhere*.
Why don't we put this on Ben Holmes to explain *why* getting an idea from
somewhere must be "documented", since the crux of your whole ill-founded
argument seems to be that Kano could not have "borrowed" the old idea with
"documenting" it. Since all of us can probably think of a number of things
that have happened or been borrowed in real life without "attribution" or
"documentation", it will be interesting to hear from you why all things MUST
be documented. It may well be documented that Kano borrowed the idea... I
don't know. I do know that the old saying is quite common, but our access
to Chinese language documentation is limited because few of us read and
speak Chinese. However, that's been obvious to a lot of us since the
beginning.... the question is why you can't see the obvious or why you want
to pretend it's not obvious and move on with the conversation like a
rational human being. I honestly have come to suspect that you have some
sort of learning disability and you actually *don't* see obvious things.
Couple that with an ego-centric personality and voila', we have Ben Holmes.
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bclav...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>> And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black
>> belt came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented
>> *somewhere*.
>
>Why don't we put this on Ben Holmes to explain *why* getting an idea from
>somewhere must be "documented", since the crux of your whole ill-founded
>argument seems to be that Kano could not have "borrowed" the old idea with
>"documenting" it.
Things can certainly happen with no particular notice, that's true. However,
YOU are asserting that this is a common saying... It's rather amazing that an
"old saying" that must be over 100 years old was never written down anywhere, or
mentioned/discussed by martial art scholars. Nor have you been able to explain
how such a saying could come about in a culture that doesn't use belt rank.
But this is what you're asking everyone to accept.
>Since all of us can probably think of a number of things
>that have happened or been borrowed in real life without "attribution" or
>"documentation", it will be interesting to hear from you why all things MUST
>be documented. It may well be documented that Kano borrowed the idea... I
>don't know. I do know that the old saying is quite common,
Just not written down anywhere! lol!!
>but our access
>to Chinese language documentation is limited because few of us read and
>speak Chinese. However, that's been obvious to a lot of us since the
>beginning.... the question is why you can't see the obvious or why you want
>to pretend it's not obvious and move on with the conversation like a
>rational human being. I honestly have come to suspect that you have some
>sort of learning disability and you actually *don't* see obvious things.
>Couple that with an ego-centric personality and voila', we have Ben Holmes.
And the de rigueur personal insult...
>Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
>
> Things can certainly happen with no particular notice, that's true.
However,
> YOU are asserting that this is a common saying... It's rather amazing that
an
> "old saying" that must be over 100 years old was never written down
anywhere, or
> mentioned/discussed by martial art scholars. Nor have you been able to
explain
> how such a saying could come about in a culture that doesn't use belt
rank.
> But this is what you're asking everyone to accept.
No, dumbass, let me re-write your sentence for you: "It's rather amazing
that an "old saying" *written in Chinese* that must be over 100 years old
(much older than that) was never written down *in English* anywhere, or
mentioned/discussed by *English-speaking* martial art scholars."
Gee, Holmes.... can you see why you appear dumb not to see the obvious and
mention it?????????????????/
>
> >Since all of us can probably think of a number of things
> >that have happened or been borrowed in real life without "attribution" or
> >"documentation", it will be interesting to hear from you why all things
MUST
> >be documented. It may well be documented that Kano borrowed the idea...
I
> >don't know. I do know that the old saying is quite common,
>
> Just not written down anywhere! lol!!
LOL?????!!!! Is that like the "LOL" where you realize there is indeed a
corpus of official Japanese writings giving credit to Chen Yuan Yun and you
don't know how to deal with it other than to parrot western martial artists
playing at being historians when they don't even read old-character
writings??????? What get "LOL" is your conceit.
>
> >but our access
> >to Chinese language documentation is limited because few of us read and
> >speak Chinese. However, that's been obvious to a lot of us since the
> >beginning.... the question is why you can't see the obvious or why you
want
> >to pretend it's not obvious and move on with the conversation like a
> >rational human being. I honestly have come to suspect that you have
some
> >sort of learning disability and you actually *don't* see obvious things.
> >Couple that with an ego-centric personality and voila', we have Ben
Holmes.
>
> And the de rigueur personal insult...
Why don't you learn to spell French if you're going to be a poseur and try
to insert it into you dumbass comments???????????
Mike Sigman
Mark Goldberg
>
>
>Yes... perhaps this explains why everyone is laughing at your suggestion that
>the idea for belt ranks derived from an "old saying" of the Chinese...
>
>
>
ben, I don't know anything about the spear.
But I know something about wood, and some of the problems attendent to
it's use.
The constant use of sweaty hands, sliding along a waxed or bare
exterior, will undoubtedly blacken, or darkent the wood.
It is the purpose of finishing woods, to prevent such changes and
'damages' for the most part.
So the darkening, and patina sheen added, I would take as common fact.
Mark
Mike Sigman
"Mark Goldberg" <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:bcllse$mhs$1...@news.monmouth.com...
No, no, Mark.... "common fact" things like "gasoline will burn in the
presence of a match" must be documented and corroborated with sources if
you're from another planet like Ben is.
Mike
Mike Sigman
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:bcllp...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >not solely
> >due to Kano's Judo teaching. Stories of him appear in Daito-Ryu
histories
>
> Nope... not quite. They appear in RECENT histories... you *cannot* locate
him
> in contemporary records doing what Daito Ryu believes he did.
>
Gee, Holmes.... here's a classic example of you arguing against modern
histories in favor of older histories (by western martial artists trying to
be "history scholars") and yet you argue the other side about Chen Yuan Yun,
poo-pooing old recorded and recognized history in favor of what suits your
personal belief. In other words, once again you out yourself as a complete
egocentric hypocrite.
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
**************************************************
Does everybody take the material on board to the same extent?
"In my experience, the people who do best have actually been Chinese,
and/or Chinese-Americans, who have enough of a background in the
vernacular of the martial arts and the histories of the stories that
they are not confused and lost with the peripheral issues." - Mike
Sigman.
**************************************************
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bcl3l...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>> >> Or, if that one is too difficult for you... try finding a single
>> >> martial arts scholar or Japanese historian who agrees with you that
>> >> Judo is derived from Shuai Chiao, or from CYY's teachings.
>> >
>> >You really don't learn.
>>
>> It's not a *point* of "learning". I already KNOW that you can't supply
>> such a cite. I'm merely driving the point home to any and all lurkers...
>> so that they know that your assertions are unsupportable.
>>
>> As I will continue to do...
>
>
>The only thing you're driving home is that you're a moron. You now have
>numerous cites from respected Japanese documents saying exactly what I've
>told you. We've been through this.
Yes... we have... as we've *also* been through pointing out that even
one of the SAME Japanese documents you keep citing *proves* that CYY
was not the originator of jujutsu. Did you forget this?
Are you supposing that *no* martial arts scholar have ever come across
these same sources? And made judgements concerning them?
>You are so dumb that you keep asking
>for the names of historians that use those cites,
Absolutely. If this is the definition of "dumb", then I certainly am.
Historians and scholars are *used* to dealing with true, false, and
contradictory sources, putting them together, judging the credibility
of each source, and coming up with a reasonable hypothesis that best
explains everything.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, using *only* a National Archive
source, YOU, Mike, are forced by your own argument to admit that JFK
was assassinated by a "colored man with a gun".
Why won't you admit this?
>rather than countering the cites themselves.
As I've previously pointed out, and do so again below, some of these
cites *COUNTER THEMSELVES*.
>So far you have not countered a single cite with anything
>other than the feeble *opinion* of some western martial artists who are
>trying to double as historians.
As I've demonstrated just above, this is not true. I've already
pointed out that the Honcho Bugei Shoden, the same source you use to
argue that CYY originated jujutsu, *ALSO* lists and records various
jujutsu styles that existed long before the time of CYY. This is
*not* the first time I've pointed this out... have you forgotten?
>In other words, you're too dumb to know when you're beat.
Was it Freud who called this "projection"?
>And that's all you're reinforcing to any "lurkers".
>You are one of those morons that thinks if you say something enough times it
>will somehow be accepted as correct.
Yep... I well understand your theory... this is why I continue to
correct you with the facts each time.
>Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>Ben Holmes wrote:
>
>>Yes... perhaps this explains why everyone is laughing at your suggestion that
>>the idea for belt ranks derived from an "old saying" of the Chinese...
>>
>ben, I don't know anything about the spear.
Neither do I... that's why my statement above was concerning Mike's
assertion that Jigoro Kano's idea to use belt color to indicate
relative skill derived from an "old saying" of the Chinese.
Mike Sigman
Same idea, dumbass. If you grew up around a certain sport, know the terms,
etc., etc., you are not thrown by it nor do you have to adopt and learn
strange ideas. You really don't get things, do you?????
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
http://www.rotteneggs.com/re_egg_display.php3?eggid=6842
Now... why do you keep implying that *your* assertions have citations,
but you just don't want to take the time to list them?
>with sources if you're from another planet like Ben is.
>
>Mike
Mike said it, so it must be true. Don't bother with minor details,
such as the fact that no-one else seems to know these "facts".
Mike Sigman
> >
> >The only thing you're driving home is that you're a moron. You now have
> >numerous cites from respected Japanese documents saying exactly what I've
> >told you. We've been through this.
>
> Yes... we have... as we've *also* been through pointing out that even
> one of the SAME Japanese documents you keep citing *proves* that CYY
> was not the originator of jujutsu. Did you forget this?
Notice the plural. You admit there are more than one document. 9 - 12 at
least.
>
> Are you supposing that *no* martial arts scholar have ever come across
> these same sources? And made judgements concerning them?
Judgements.... as in opinions about the documents? In other words, are you
saying you don't know for sure?
> >You are so dumb that you keep asking
> >for the names of historians that use those cites,
>
> Absolutely. If this is the definition of "dumb", then I certainly am.
Bingo. You *are* dumb. Question the documents, not potential citers. If
you have a credible someone who is skilled in ancient Japanese history and
who says the documents are false, or are forgeries (all of them), then you
can carry on with the debate. Otherwise, you're just some dyslexic moron
that can't understand where an argument really is.
>
> As I've repeatedly pointed out, using *only* a National Archive
> source, YOU, Mike, are forced by your own argument to admit that JFK
> was assassinated by a "colored man with a gun".
>
Now you're back to saying that I'm only talking about *one* source. See the
problem, dummy? You'll lie as it suits you.
> As I've previously pointed out, and do so again below, some of these
> cites *COUNTER THEMSELVES*.
According to whom??? Who says they counter themselves, Holmes? Give me
the name, but be sure it's someone who is known to be skilled in
old-language. You just are too dumb to mention facts, even when they're
obvious, that might counter your own argument and make you think.
>
> >So far you have not countered a single cite with anything
> >other than the feeble *opinion* of some western martial artists who are
> >trying to double as historians.
>
> As I've demonstrated just above, this is not true. I've already
> pointed out that the Honcho Bugei Shoden, the same source you use to
> argue that CYY originated jujutsu, *ALSO* lists and records various
> jujutsu styles that existed long before the time of CYY. This is
> *not* the first time I've pointed this out... have you forgotten?
And I asked long ago.... does Honcho Bugei Shoden call those arts "jujitsu"?
You never answered. And how about the *other* sources, Holmes?
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bclip...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>>
>> Things can certainly happen with no particular notice, that's true.
>> However, YOU are asserting that this is a common saying... It's rather
>> amazing that an "old saying" that must be over 100 years old was never
>> written down anywhere, or mentioned/discussed by martial art scholars.
>> Nor have you been able to explain how such a saying could come about
>> in a culture that doesn't use belt rank.
>>
>> But this is what you're asking everyone to accept.
>
>No, dumbass, let me re-write your sentence for you: "It's rather amazing
>that an "old saying" *written in Chinese* that must be over 100 years old
>(much older than that) was never written down *in English* anywhere, or
>mentioned/discussed by *English-speaking* martial art scholars."
>
>Gee, Holmes.... can you see why you appear dumb not to see the obvious and
>mention it?????????????????/
You mean the obvious fact that you are English speaking?
>> >Since all of us can probably think of a number of things
>> >that have happened or been borrowed in real life without "attribution" or
>> >"documentation", it will be interesting to hear from you why all things
>MUST
>> >be documented. It may well be documented that Kano borrowed the idea...
>I
>> >don't know. I do know that the old saying is quite common,
>>
>> Just not written down anywhere! lol!!
>
>LOL?????!!!! Is that like the "LOL" where you realize there is indeed a
>corpus of official Japanese writings giving credit to Chen Yuan Yun
And yet, there is also Japanese sources that *dispute* your theory?
Why do you never deal with *those* sources? One of which is
*identical* with one of yours... :)
>and you
>don't know how to deal with it other than to parrot western martial artists
>playing at being historians when they don't even read old-character
>writings???????
Confused, aren't you? Most people who deal with another language are
either fluent in it, or employ native-speaking researchers... usually
both. This has already been mentioned a number of times... have you
forgotten?
>What get "LOL" is your conceit.
Ditto with your memory...
>> >but our access
>> >to Chinese language documentation is limited because few of us read and
>> >speak Chinese. However, that's been obvious to a lot of us since the
>> >beginning.... the question is why you can't see the obvious or why you
>want
>> >to pretend it's not obvious and move on with the conversation like a
>> >rational human being. I honestly have come to suspect that you have
>some
>> >sort of learning disability and you actually *don't* see obvious things.
>> >Couple that with an ego-centric personality and voila', we have Ben
>Holmes.
>>
>> And the de rigueur personal insult...
>
>Why don't you learn to spell French if you're going to be a poseur and try
>to insert it into you dumbass comments???????????
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth
Edition. 2000:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/5/D0150500.html
From the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0004470.html
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?de%20rigueur
French terms and expressions commonly used in English:
http://french.about.com/library/bl-frenchinenglish-list.htm
Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=19812&dict=CALD
And how do *you* spell it?
>Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:54:34 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >No, dumbass, let me re-write your sentence for you: "It's rather amazing
> >that an "old saying" *written in Chinese* that must be over 100 years old
> >(much older than that) was never written down *in English* anywhere, or
> >mentioned/discussed by *English-speaking* martial art scholars."
> >
> >Gee, Holmes.... can you see why you appear dumb not to see the obvious
and
> >mention it?????????????????/
>
> You mean the obvious fact that you are English speaking?
>
And we're talking about Japanese language..... and you keep referring to
westerners making superficial interpretations as being "historians" while
you have a *number * Japanese and Chinese sources telling you differently.
And you want English sources. How many truly in-depth English sources are
there of Japanese history? Not many. How many of those in-depth English
sources are focused on martial arts with the writer also being a very
knowledgeable martial artist. There is no such thing currently available.
There *are* however a *number* of Japanese sources that say very clearly
that Chen Yuan Yun is the initiate source of "ju" techniques in Japan.
You have not answered me on your claim that the exact term "jujitsu" was
used before Chen Yuan Yun. Not a word that "means the same thing".... that
doesn't count.
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Taken from "Getting Frustrated with School" thread:
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bcllp...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>> >not solely due to Kano's Judo teaching. Stories of him appear in Daito-Ryu
>> >histories
>>
>> Nope... not quite. They appear in RECENT histories... you *cannot* locate
>> him in contemporary records doing what Daito Ryu believes he did.
>
>Gee, Holmes.... here's a classic example of you arguing against modern
>histories in favor of older histories
Now see? Here's the trouble you can get into when you try to jump
into something you know nothing of.
When I used the term "recent histories", I'm referring to the
"history" sections in martial art's books. *REAL* 'histories' on this
topic don't have contradictions like this.
Martial scholars who've studied all the citations come to the same
conclusion that I did. Or, rather more accurately, I *believe* the
conclusions that scholars have come to.
>(by western martial artists trying to be "history scholars")
Japanese, too!
But why would you care? You don't recognize *any* scholar or
historian as being credible. You can't... since it would be a
yard-stick against which your own assertions could be measured.
>and yet you argue the other side about Chen Yuan Yun,
>poo-pooing old recorded and recognized history in favor of what suits your
>personal belief.
Are you getting confused? In *both* cases, I prefer the earliest
records over those much later.
>In other words, once again you out yourself as a complete
>egocentric hypocrite.
Come on, Mike, you can admit it... go ahead, admit that the Japanese
record itself is contradictory... come on Mike, you can do it!!
Admit that one of your *own* sources contradicts your theory... come
on, Mike, you can do it!
>Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
>
> Admit that one of your *own* sources contradicts your theory... come
> on, Mike, you can do it!
>
I know there are contradictions, but *some* contradictions are not
contradictions at all.... just screw-ups by the guy who did the translating.
Which is why I want you to give me a name.............................
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I think I'll let your words speak for you. They do so much better
than any argument I could make.
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:6aqsev04cc8gcb2tc...@4ax.com...
>
>> >The only thing you're driving home is that you're a moron. You now have
>> >numerous cites from respected Japanese documents saying exactly what I've
>> >told you. We've been through this.
>>
>> Yes... we have... as we've *also* been through pointing out that even
>> one of the SAME Japanese documents you keep citing *proves* that CYY
>> was not the originator of jujutsu. Did you forget this?
>
>Notice the plural. You admit there are more than one document. 9 - 12 at
>least.
Of *course* there are more than one Japanese source document that
deals with this issue. You'd be a liar if you tried to say that I've
ever said otherwise.
There are a number of documents that assert that CYY founded jujutsu.
There are *ALSO* a number of documents that list or document jujutsu
styles that predate CYY.
As well as the never rebutted problem you have with a primarily P/K
art founding a primarily grappling one.
>> Are you supposing that *no* martial arts scholar have ever come across
>> these same sources? And made judgements concerning them?
>
>Judgements.... as in opinions about the documents?
Yep... that's what people do. Particularly scholars and historians.
>In other words, are you saying you don't know for sure?
Nope. As I said, that's what scholars do. They make judgements of
the sources they deal with.
>> >You are so dumb that you keep asking
>> >for the names of historians that use those cites,
>>
>> Absolutely. If this is the definition of "dumb", then I certainly am.
>
>Bingo. You *are* dumb.
Nah... only if your definition were correct. It's not.
>Question the documents, not potential citers.
The *documents* contradict the documents. That's quite clear. This
is why scholars try to make sense out of it all.
>If you have a credible someone who is skilled in ancient Japanese history
Yep... try Karl Friday, Associate Professor of Japanese History at the
University of Georgia. I've previously quoted his comments...
>and who says the documents are false, or are forgeries (all of them), then you
>can carry on with the debate. Otherwise, you're just some dyslexic moron
>that can't understand where an argument really is.
Another perfect strawman argument.
I have no need to prove that particular documents are forgeries or
false. I don't have the initial assumption that they are accurate.
And actually, I've already listed one document that CONTRADICTS
itself. The proof is internal in that case.
>> As I've repeatedly pointed out, using *only* a National Archive
>> source, YOU, Mike, are forced by your own argument to admit that JFK
>> was assassinated by a "colored man with a gun".
>
>Now you're back to saying that I'm only talking about *one* source.
And you're a liar, Mike. At no point have I *ever* stated or implied
that you were only using one source.
You wish to argue the accuracy of "National Archive" sources, I've
given a counter argument which proves your argument worthless.
>See the problem, dummy? You'll lie as it suits you.
Examples can be found with multiple sources. Your assumption is that
all sources are accurate. I'm not burdened with that mistake.
>> As I've previously pointed out, and do so again below, some of these
>> cites *COUNTER THEMSELVES*.
>
>According to whom???
Those who read them in their original Japanese. I have no reason to
disbelieve them - as it fits with what *other* sources say.
>Who says they counter themselves, Holmes? Give me
>the name, but be sure it's someone who is known to be skilled in
>old-language. You just are too dumb to mention facts, even when they're
>obvious, that might counter your own argument and make you think.
See immediately below...
>> >So far you have not countered a single cite with anything
>> >other than the feeble *opinion* of some western martial artists who are
>> >trying to double as historians.
>>
>> As I've demonstrated just above, this is not true. I've already
>> pointed out that the Honcho Bugei Shoden, the same source you use to
>> argue that CYY originated jujutsu, *ALSO* lists and records various
>> jujutsu styles that existed long before the time of CYY. This is
>> *not* the first time I've pointed this out... have you forgotten?
>
>And I asked long ago.... does Honcho Bugei Shoden call those arts "jujitsu"?
It certainly uses the term...
Of course, even a careful reading of this source doesn't credit CYY
with jujutsu, but the reconstruction performed by the three ronin.
Yet it can't be right, as it also lists jujutsu styles that predated
this time period.
>You never answered. And how about the *other* sources, Holmes?
How many sources do you need to understand that jujutsu predated CYY?
How many times must it be pointed out that you can't locate any
martial art scholars, or Japanese historians that agree with you?
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Snipping again, I see...
Mike Sigman
> >Notice the plural. You admit there are more than one document. 9 - 12
at
> >least.
>
> Of *course* there are more than one Japanese source document that
> deals with this issue. You'd be a liar if you tried to say that I've
> ever said otherwise.
>
> There are a number of documents that assert that CYY founded jujutsu.
> There are *ALSO* a number of documents that list or document jujutsu
> styles that predate CYY.
I've asked for the documents and the precise word they use. "Jujutsu".
Because different words have been translated as "jujutsu" that were not
originally "jujutsu" (like "yawara").
>
> As well as the never rebutted problem you have with a primarily P/K
> art founding a primarily grappling one.
It's been rebutted about 6 times. You and some of your westerners are
translating "chuan fa" to mean a punch/kick art and it's not, except to a
complete moron; it's a generic term in that context. Anyone who says that
"chuan fa" means a punch-kick art ... his other translations are immediately
suspect and useless. That's been brought up a number of times.
Tell you what, Holmes. I'm sick and tired of this personal problem of yours
that you keep falling back on with repeating facts that have been laid to
rest in the past. You just go on and pretend that you're knowledgeable
about judo. It's actually impossible that you know much about anything,
other than the superficial, with whatever this personality problem of yours
is. I'm not going to rehash "chuan fa" and the other BS for the rest of my
life with you until you can wear me out. Life's too short.
Mike Sigman
Badger North
>>Well, the blackened spear shaft is pretty obscure, I'll grant that,
>>but it isn't so far fetched as to be unbelievable. Plenty of CMA
>>aphorisms that I'd have a hell of a time finding an online cite for.
>>"Keep your spear bent and your whip chain straight" comes to mind.
>
>But surely you'd think that the origin of belt rank systems is a tad more
>documented than that, wouldn't you? Nor do I restrict things to online cites...
>they are actually not nearly as good as the available literature. (Nor, in many
>cases, as believable)
Why should the origin of belt ranks be documented? Plenty of Japanese
arts originated with forest goblins, according to their documents...
>And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black belt
>came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented *somewhere*.
Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
must be documented somewhere. Certainly this discussion of spear
shafts illustrates that - a major weapon in the Chinese arsenal, and
there are plenty of common sayings associated with the weapon that you
would have major problems finding a reference for.
I hadn't heard the blackened shaft reference before, but as someone
with some mild acquaintance with the spear, I understand the basis of
it. Likewise the "keep your spear bent, and your whip-chain straight"
will be understood by those conversant with the weapons.
Weirdwolf
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
> On 16 Jun 2003 13:57:23 -0700, Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote:
>
> >>Well, the blackened spear shaft is pretty obscure, I'll grant that,
> >>but it isn't so far fetched as to be unbelievable. Plenty of CMA
> >>aphorisms that I'd have a hell of a time finding an online cite for.
> >>"Keep your spear bent and your whip chain straight" comes to mind.
> >
> >But surely you'd think that the origin of belt rank systems is a tad more
> >documented than that, wouldn't you? Nor do I restrict things to online
cites...
> >they are actually not nearly as good as the available literature. (Nor,
in many
> >cases, as believable)
>
> Why should the origin of belt ranks be documented? Plenty of Japanese
> arts originated with forest goblins, according to their documents...
>
home after a night on the saki and he came upon some really weird arsed
buggers in the mountains. Not once did he say "holy shit am I wasted" or
"verily what the fuck are you" but he did ask of them "can you teach me how
to use a sword, because anything that ugly has to be good at defending
itself!" >;-Þ
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Badger North
<weirdwolf@ntl(hatespam)world.com> wrote:
> And lo it is written in the tengu geijutsu ron the Chosen Shisai was going
>home after a night on the saki and he came upon some really weird arsed
>buggers in the mountains. Not once did he say "holy shit am I wasted" or
>"verily what the fuck are you" but he did ask of them "can you teach me how
>to use a sword, because anything that ugly has to be good at defending
>itself!" >;-Ş
"Honest, honey! Sure, I was up at that shack at the mountains all
weekend, but it was because I was training with tengu! Who? Oh, come
on, dear, she meant nothing to me!"
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
news:3eef182d...@news21.bellnet.ca...
>
> I hadn't heard the blackened shaft reference before, but as someone
> with some mild acquaintance with the spear, I understand the basis of
> it. Likewise the "keep your spear bent, and your whip-chain straight"
> will be understood by those conversant with the weapons.
I think that Asian martial arts fall into roughly 2 categories: (1.)the
obvious/superficial with occasional subtleties that make you think you're
into some deep stuff(still takes training, of course) and (2.) the really
deep stuff that has lots of adherents doing superficial mimicry. Lots of
shades of gray, of course. For instance, take the "blackened spear shaft"
quote.... it's no big deal and it's fairly well known, yet few people in the
West (and even in China, if they have limited-view martial exposure) have
heard of it. If it becomes anything like the "blackened belt" of shuai
jiao (which was first mentioned on RMA by some of us probably around 10
years ago), knowledge of it will spread with various westerners finally
affixing an "urban legend" tag to it. But the point is that most
westerners are barely plumbing the obvious/superficial arts or parts of arts
and the giveaway is when you see fairly routine stuff debated as "new and
unproven, give me a cite" stuff.
There are people who do "Taiji" and "Aikido" and "Karoddy", etc., and they
know "forms" and "kata" and "applications" and they know how to dress the
part and talk the talk (at least on a level that impresses their peers)...
but it will take another generation or two before there are very many people
that really begin to plumb the depths of some of these arts. I know that
MMA is a big trend right now and I actually appreciate the stuff... but I
don't think it's been tried against some of the bodyguard-level Asians and I
don't think it will hold up. But it's something I just have to wait and see
about. :^)
The point is that if we're having to keep these debates on the superficial
levels (not you, Badger... I was thinking of others) and the pissing
contests, it doesn't say much about the level we're dealing with. To make
it plainer, most of the "experts" of the West (and Asia, too) are in denial
about the fact that a number of years of the obvious/superficial can still
leave them as "not experts".
Mike
Ben Holmes
Nah... you argue just from the source citation itself... *deal* with the source
citation itself.
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:oovsev4q6g0f02tvu...@4ax.com...
>
>> >Notice the plural. You admit there are more than one document. 9 - 12
>at
>> >least.
>>
>> Of *course* there are more than one Japanese source document that
>> deals with this issue. You'd be a liar if you tried to say that I've
>> ever said otherwise.
>>
>> There are a number of documents that assert that CYY founded jujutsu.
>> There are *ALSO* a number of documents that list or document jujutsu
>> styles that predate CYY.
>I've asked for the documents and the precise word they use. "Jujutsu".
>Because different words have been translated as "jujutsu" that were not
>originally "jujutsu" (like "yawara").
LOL!!
Anyone else getting a laugh here?
>> As well as the never rebutted problem you have with a primarily P/K
>> art founding a primarily grappling one.
>
>It's been rebutted about 6 times. You and some of your westerners are
>translating "chuan fa" to mean a punch/kick art and it's not, except to a
>complete moron; it's a generic term in that context. Anyone who says that
>"chuan fa" means a punch-kick art ... his other translations are immediately
>suspect and useless. That's been brought up a number of times.
Sorry Mike, you aren't paying very much attention. I don't even recall *using*
the term.
Are you going to deny that Chinese martial arts are primarily P/K?
Are you going to deny that Japanese martial arts are primarily grappling?
>Tell you what, Holmes. I'm sick and tired of this personal problem of yours
>that you keep falling back on with repeating facts that have been laid to
>rest in the past.
As in the two examples above?
>You just go on and pretend that you're knowledgeable
>about judo.
Ah, but I am. This is part of your problem. You pretend what I *know*.
>It's actually impossible that you know much about anything,
>other than the superficial, with whatever this personality problem of yours
>is. I'm not going to rehash "chuan fa"
How can you rehash what you never hashed?
As I stated, I've never even discussed this term.
>and the other BS for the rest of my
>life with you until you can wear me out. Life's too short.
Yep... it is. One could therefore wonder why *you* are spending it on arguing
things you don't know.
>Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom says...
>
>On 16 Jun 2003 13:57:23 -0700, Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote:
>
>>>Well, the blackened spear shaft is pretty obscure, I'll grant that,
>>>but it isn't so far fetched as to be unbelievable. Plenty of CMA
>>>aphorisms that I'd have a hell of a time finding an online cite for.
>>>"Keep your spear bent and your whip chain straight" comes to mind.
>>
>>But surely you'd think that the origin of belt rank systems is a tad more
>>documented than that, wouldn't you? Nor do I restrict things to online cites...
>>they are actually not nearly as good as the available literature. (Nor, in many
>>cases, as believable)
>
>Why should the origin of belt ranks be documented?
Actually, it is. The *actual* origin, that is.
>Plenty of Japanese
>arts originated with forest goblins, according to their documents...
True.
>>And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black belt
>>came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented *somewhere*.
>
>Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
>the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
>must be documented somewhere.
A "common" saying? An "old saying"?? One that 'everyone knows'?
If Mike wants to assert this, then I'm going to take the time to point out how
silly it is.
Mike Sigman
> In article <3eef182d...@news21.bellnet.ca>,
> A "common" saying? An "old saying"?? One that 'everyone knows'?
>
> If Mike wants to assert this, then I'm going to take the time to point out
how
> silly it is.
>
Holmes, you can play to whatever portion of the "judo community" you think
you're playing to, but you're a moron and just about everyone has spotted
it, starting with the bullshit pratfall you did about "ukemi". Your
grammar school approach to repeating dumb questions after they've been
answered might make a point with your fellow low-IQ types that you hang
with, but it doesn't do a lot for anyone with intelligence... which is
unfortunately a bit higher than yours on average, even on RMA.
You need to quit with the high-emotional index crap about how qualified you
are and how "unqualified" everyone else is.... you've run it into the
ground. Now you're simply an asshole trying to dig your way out of the hole
you dug for yourself.
Mike Sigman
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:bco7l...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> In article <3eef182d...@news21.bellnet.ca>,
>
>> A "common" saying? An "old saying"?? One that 'everyone knows'?
>>
>> If Mike wants to assert this, then I'm going to take the time to point out
>> how silly it is.
>
>Holmes, you can play to whatever portion of the "judo community" you think
>you're playing to, but you're a moron and just about everyone has spotted
>it, starting with the bullshit pratfall you did about "ukemi".
As I've pointed out several times now... I stand by my statements
regarding ukemi. And, silly to continue pointing out, I know, but
your *initial* statement *STILL* hasn't found any support, has it?
>Your grammar school approach to repeating dumb questions after
>they've been answered
Perhaps this is why I continue to point them out? Because you
*haven't* answered them. Take, for example, your non-answer about why
a largely P/K Chinese martial art community can be the founder of a
largely grappling Japanese martial art community.
>might make a point with your fellow low-IQ types that you hang
>with, but it doesn't do a lot for anyone with intelligence... which is
>unfortunately a bit higher than yours on average, even on RMA.
>
>You need to quit with the high-emotional index crap about how qualified you
>are and how "unqualified" everyone else is....
Nah, just you, Mike... on Judo you don't appear to know very much.
>you've run it into the ground.
You can stop anytime you feel like it, Mike.
>Now you're simply an asshole trying to dig your way out of the hole
>you dug for yourself.
How do you spell "de rigueur"?
>Mike Sigman
Steve Williams
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:43:06 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Taken from "Getting Frustrated with School" thread:
> >
> >"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> >news:bcllp...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >
> >> >not solely due to Kano's Judo teaching. Stories of him appear in Daito-Ryu
> >> >histories
> >>
> >> Nope... not quite. They appear in RECENT histories... you *cannot* locate
> >> him in contemporary records doing what Daito Ryu believes he did.
> >
> >Gee, Holmes.... here's a classic example of you arguing against modern
> >histories in favor of older histories
I agree to that!
> Now see? Here's the trouble you can get into when you try to jump
> into something you know nothing of.
>
Now Ben, that is what I have been telling for weeks. This is a part of
your M.O.
> When I used the term "recent histories", I'm referring to the
> "history" sections in martial art's books. *REAL* 'histories' on this
> topic don't have contradictions like this.
Ben nice CYA (Covering your own ass), and back-peddling. Let me tell
you that is Olympic material.
>
> Martial scholars who've studied all the citations come to the same
> conclusion that I did. Or, rather more accurately, I *believe* the
> conclusions that scholars have come to.
Damn, I got to give you a hand for trying to come clean and sober.
Here let me help some more, kill the first sentence, and re-write the
second sentence as "I am not sure but I am guessing that maybe
Scholars might agree with me, after I believe that Huggies shouldn't
be used when you run out of Depends. Huggies only crawl up your butt
crack and become a irratating diaper thong on anyone 65 and older.
> >(by western martial artists trying to be "history scholars")
>
> Japanese, too!
Yeah, the Japanese had the thong long before the west did. We just
improved it and put it on woman.
> But why would you care? You don't recognize *any* scholar or
> historian as being credible. You can't... since it would be a
> yard-stick against which your own assertions could be measured.
Yeah, I go for the hack writters who call themselves Judo scholars.
> >and yet you argue the other side about Chen Yuan Yun,
> >poo-pooing old recorded and recognized history in favor of what suits your
> >personal belief.
>
> Are you getting confused? In *both* cases, I prefer the earliest
> records over those much later.
Of course, you would Ben. It fits your agenda. In your case, I think
you just over look the facts and say screw it, I will work what ever
fits my agenda, earlier records are not as easy to prove in some cases
where information in not accurately document. Hell, if I think like
you Ben, then the war of 1812 war a tea party, and American Slavery
never existed.
> >In other words, once again you out yourself as a complete
> >egocentric hypocrite.
You noticed that too huh? I would throw in senile old coot.
> Come on, Mike, you can admit it... go ahead, admit that the Japanese
> record itself is contradictory... come on Mike, you can do it!!
Yea, coming for a man who doesn't read or speak Japanese beyond "I am
an American Judoka so kiss my ass..." (refering to Ben posting
Japanese Judo is inferior to American Judo).
>
> Admit that one of your *own* sources contradicts your theory... come
> on, Mike, you can do it!
Shit if he did and it was true, he would be a long way behind you.
Dude and I thought you were on crack, but it's looks like your in need
of Viagra and Preparation H.
Mike Sigman
> >
> >Holmes, you can play to whatever portion of the "judo community" you
think
> >you're playing to, but you're a moron and just about everyone has spotted
> >it, starting with the bullshit pratfall you did about "ukemi".
>
> As I've pointed out several times now... I stand by my statements
> regarding ukemi.
I think we're all painfully aware that your "standing by your statements" is
not really an accidental oversight on your part, Holmes. It's deliberate.
And it marks you. And you will continue to argue, thinking you're making
some sort of point. As I've said before.... it's embarrassing that you
claim to be a representative of U.S. judo, with that sort of personality and
reasoning ability.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
"Teabag" <teab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:31900951.03061...@posting.google.com...
>
> > For instance, take the "blackened spear shaft"
> > quote.... it's no big deal and it's fairly well known, yet few people in
the
> > West (and even in China, if they have limited-view martial exposure)
have
> > heard of it.
>
> It's "fairly well know", but "few people... have heard of it"?
>
> Care to explain that boner, Mike?
See those 3 dots where you left out "in the West"? See if you can figure
it out, boner.
>
> > If it becomes anything like the "blackened belt" of shuai
> > jiao (which was first mentioned on RMA by some of us probably around 10
> > years ago), knowledge of it will spread with various westerners finally
> > affixing an "urban legend" tag to it.
>
> I just spent five minutes researching the above. Why don't you back
> it up?
Back what up????.... that you spent five minutes researching????
Hmmmmmmmmmmm..... when did DejaNews begin archiving RMA?????
>
>
> > There are people who do "Taiji" and "Aikido" and "Karoddy", etc., and
they
> > know "forms" and "kata" and "applications" and they know how to dress
the
> > part and talk the talk
>
> I've recently reviewed your initial set of tapes and I was very
> impressed by the footage of you in your yellow bathrobe or whatever it
> was, doing some sort of tye-jee form. You certainly knew how to dress
> the part. I was less impressed by the constant audible intake of
> breath every time you finished saying something. Speaks to
> production, for one thing, and you might want to raise it with your
> doctor, for another.
It speaks to not having a script, being nervous, and ad-libbing like mad
because I was too lackadaisical to put forth a lot of effort. That was the
first set of tapes, not the second set. Mail them to me and I'll autograph
them... or maybe not mail them back to you. :^))))
Mike
Ben Holmes
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:5devev8kkt6p49e1h...@4ax.com...
>
>>>Holmes, you can play to whatever portion of the "judo community" you
>>>think you're playing to, but you're a moron and just about everyone has
>>>spotted it, starting with the bullshit pratfall you did about "ukemi".
>>
>> As I've pointed out several times now... I stand by my statements
>> regarding ukemi.
>
>I think we're all painfully aware that your "standing by your statements" is
>not really an accidental oversight on your part, Holmes. It's deliberate.
Of course it is. Why would I want to disavow something that I've said
that I believe is quite accurate?
Something, it should be noted, that you didn't find any Judoka to jump
to your side...
And while there are probably Judoka who wouldn't agree with me 100%,
(In fact, I can *name* a few - unfortunately for you, they're not on
RMA... they *are* however, on the Judo List, where I invited you to
publish your remarks...) neither are you going to find Judoka who
consider my remarks completely out of line, as you do.
>And it marks you. And you will continue to argue, thinking you're making
>some sort of point. As I've said before.... it's embarrassing that you
>claim to be a representative of U.S. judo, with that sort of personality and
>reasoning ability.
Embarrassing to you, perhaps. Particularly when you tried to assert
that you were a member of "a Marine Corps judo team" to a person who
*has* made the team a number of times.
And when it becomes clear that you can't discuss Judo technique with
someone who knows the topic.
>Mike Sigman
I added back in the stuff you snipped...
>>Your grammar school approach to repeating dumb questions after
>>they've been answered
>
>Perhaps this is why I continue to point them out? Because you
>*haven't* answered them. Take, for example, your non-answer about why
>a largely P/K Chinese martial art community can be the founder of a
>largely grappling Japanese martial art community.
And once again, we see no answer to this.
>>might make a point with your fellow low-IQ types that you hang
>>with, but it doesn't do a lot for anyone with intelligence... which is
>>unfortunately a bit higher than yours on average, even on RMA.
>>
>>You need to quit with the high-emotional index crap about how qualified you
>>are and how "unqualified" everyone else is....
>
>Nah, just you, Mike... on Judo you don't appear to know very much.
>
>>you've run it into the ground.
>
>You can stop anytime you feel like it, Mike.
>
>>Now you're simply an asshole trying to dig your way out of the hole
>>you dug for yourself.
>
>How do you spell "de rigueur"?
And for some strange reason, Mike refuses to answer this question!! I
wonder why?
>>Mike Sigman
Peter Claussen
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Peter Claussen" <bo...@itctel.com> wrote in message
> news:140620030744036967%bo...@itctel.com...
> > In article <vekqffk...@corp.supernews.com>, Mike Sigman
> > <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > "Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> > > news:bcdm6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >
> > > And? The guy who practices often with the spear has a black-hafted
> spear,
> > > but he also is from a culture that practices normal hygiene. What is
> the
> > > point of a stupid question like this?
> > >
> >
> > Are you sure the black-hafted spear reference comes from China? I did a
> > quick search on Google, and the only hits for "black-hafted spear" come
> > from D&D, Lord of the Rings type sites.
> >
> > For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> > support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> > black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> > don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>
> I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is. You can
> choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
> with your lot, if I can help it.
Real mature. Won't, or can't?
I don't believe it, because there has been no evidence to support that
belief. Simple.
I'm reminded of a passage in the book "A Season on the Mat", where a
journalist travelled with the U of Iowa wrestling team. In this
passage, a UI wrestler had beaten a Greco-Roman specialist, with a
throw. The author used the phrase (and I paraphrase - I loaned the book
out and it never came back) "greco'd a greco".
I've spend a lot of time with collegiate wrestlers, and I've not heard
phrases like that. It sounds more like a something picked up by the
writer to give his book more credibility - kind of like when suburban
gangsta wannabes pick up the slang - using the patois attempting to
sound authentic.
So, without further evidence, I'll believe you've used the phrase to
make yourself sound more experienced than you are.
> The story is very widely known... if you
> want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
> common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
> place.
>
If it's widely known, then it should be easily found. If it's not
easily found, it's not widely known.
So who did you first hear this from?
> >
> > > >
> > > > #4: Can you cite any anthropological study that shows this mysterious
> > > behavior?
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is what I mean. You need some professional help. You are
> > > self-proclaimed as an important personage in "American Judo" (where did
> the
> > > American Judo Team place internationally, BTW?),
> >
> > And what does that matter? Just a gratuitous dig at judo?
>
> I've asked the question before with no response.
>
> The placing
> > of the National Team is really only as important as your preference on
> > the sport-vs-martial-art debate. It's not surprising, really, that the
> > U.S. does not place well in international competition - there are
> > relatively few elite level competitions in the U.S. compared to Europe
> > and Asia.
> >
>
> Maybe the American "teachers" aren't as expert as they think they are.
If you spend much time in judo (or any other competitive style) you
would quickly find there is a big difference between teaching
techniques and coaching competitors. There are many expert teachers,
few expert coaches.
It's the same misconception that have led traditional martial artists
into competitive arenas where they are woefully unprepared. Knowing the
techniques is not the same as being able to pull them off against
highly trained opponents.
The best way to become an elite athlete is to train with, and compete
against, other elite athletes - and there aren't many opportunities for
this in the U.S.
> > FWIW (Since E. Amdur, elsewhere, suggested a fourth place finish for
> > the Chinese) - if you bother to look at the 2000 Olympics results, the
> > Chinese team placed in the total medal count, behind Japan (8), France
> > (6), Korea and Cuba (5) and tied with Italy for 4 (Brazil took 2
> > medals).
> >
> > However, all four medals were won by the women's team. The men's team
> > did worse than the U.S. with 1 seventh place finish, vs 1 fifth and 2
> > seventh finishes.
>
> Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing under
> those rules.
China has women placing in the world champioships since '84, and men at
the Olympics since '88.
Peter Claussen
Peter Claussen
<young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote:
> On 16 Jun 2003 13:57:23 -0700, Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote:
> Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
> the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
> must be documented somewhere.
Common sayings do get documented - many times in interviews with
experts (like the Conversations with Ancestors), collections of
letters, newspapers. That's one of the archivists keep old books around
- to save the history of the language itself, not just the topics of
the books.
And to also save the context of the phrase. Given that, if you poke
around with Zen, you do run across the legend of the black belt. For
example, consider this short parable (from
http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/world-religions/buddhism/zen/philosop
hy.asp )
"When a novice starts learning martial arts, he wears a white belt,
symbolic of innocence. After months of practice, the white belt gets
dirty and turns brown, symbolic of the first degree of attainment.
After more practice, the belt gets soiled and eventually turns black,
symbolic of full attainment.
If the practitioner does not stop learning even after full attainment,
the black belt starts getting frayed, turning almost white, symbolic of
return to innocence. The frayed white belt represents technical
competence of an experienced martial artist, combined with the
innocence and receptivity of a beginner. It signifies going beyond
technique and embracing no-technique議oming full circle. "
This makes the myth of the black belt sound more like a lesson to
introduce philosophy to Westerners, but many Westerners accepted this
parable as fact. Kind of like Herrigel's Zen Archery.
> Certainly this discussion of spear
> shafts illustrates that - a major weapon in the Chinese arsenal, and
> there are plenty of common sayings associated with the weapon that you
> would have major problems finding a reference for.
I've run across quite a few aphorisms regarding the spear, just not
this specific one.
>
> I hadn't heard the blackened shaft reference before, but as someone
> with some mild acquaintance with the spear, I understand the basis of
> it.
You hadn't heard it, either? I was under the impression you had. That
changes things, a little. If you'd heard it from some other source,
that would lend to authenticity of the phrase. Without that, it's just
something Mike says.
It may, or may not be true, but is it really a commonly used phrase
among weapons experts; or just something Mike made up to bolster his
claims?
Peter Claussen
Peter Claussen
<young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:44:03 -0500, Peter Claussen <bo...@itctel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> >support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> >black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> >don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
>
> Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
> on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
> With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
> which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
>
I grew up on a farm, working with a lot of long-used tools. Shovels,
pitchforks, hoes, rakes, sickles, hammers, you name it. I don't
remember the wood becoming darkened - it may actually lighten,
depending on the wood and original stain. But the next time I visit the
folks I'll take a look.
And if the weapon is repeatedly waxed, why isn't it also cleaned? What
kind of wax?
I can think of long-played guitar,where the lighter, unstained wood
shows through where the finish has been rubbed away, and of old pool
cues, where the finish is rubbed from the shaft.
If anything, a blackened shaft wouldn't so much represent expertise as
sloth - kind of like letting your blade become rusty. If it's important
you tend to take better care.
Kind of like going around with an old, frayed, black belt. It may make
you look like an expert, but it doesn't last too long if you wear it in
competition.
So, no, the story just doesn't ring true.
> Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
> where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
> enamoured with spear work.
>
Discolored, yeah. But if the myth were about grey belts there wouldn't
be a problem with it not making sense.
Peter Claussen
Peter Claussen
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> news:6aqsev04cc8gcb2tc...@4ax.com...
>
> > >
> > >The only thing you're driving home is that you're a moron. You now have
> > >numerous cites from respected Japanese documents saying exactly what I've
> > >told you. We've been through this.
> >
> > Yes... we have... as we've *also* been through pointing out that even
> > one of the SAME Japanese documents you keep citing *proves* that CYY
> > was not the originator of jujutsu. Did you forget this?
>
> Notice the plural. You admit there are more than one document. 9 - 12 at
> least.
>
>
9-12? I only remember 1-2. Why don't you simply post the complete list,
then. Good scholars have no problems repeating their sources.
Peter Claussen
Peter Claussen
<ordo...@mail.china.com> wrote:
> "Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<vembq61...@corp.supernews.com>...
>
> > I'm not "making an assertion", I'm telling you something that is. You can
> > choose to believe it or not because I'm not sharing any useful information
> > with your lot, if I can help it. The story is very widely known... if you
> > want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
> > common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
> > place.
>
> A nessessity to using "chinese language" sites is to use some kind of
> encoding. A chinese os is not 100% cross-compatable. For example,
> Winmx is popular in japan, but you cant download any of their files
> because your OS will not allow the special characters on your hard
> drive. Because the japanese OS is different than windows with chinese
> support. Just one of those things. However, i've found it impossible
> to download a mp3 with chinese encoding and transfer it across the
> network without first deleting the encoding first. You cant even
> rename over the network. Copy and move does not work eaither. And
> this of course is assuming there is at least some ASCII in the
> filename.
>
> They are more screwed than us because the japanese cannot download
> ANYTHING with ascii in it. Their OS does not support it.
>
I was under the impression that all new OS's support Unicode - I've got
Mac OS X and it's supported Japanese text input, without any extras,
since 2001. I don't generally have problems with Japanese sites.
Peter Claussen
Badger North
>> For instance, take the "blackened spear shaft"
>> quote.... it's no big deal and it's fairly well known, yet few people in the
>> West (and even in China, if they have limited-view martial exposure) have
>> heard of it.
>
>It's "fairly well know", but "few people... have heard of it"?
>
>Care to explain that boner, Mike?
Makes sense to me - if you're not part of that culture, it isn't a
common phrase. It's like hearing "red, right, returning" but not
knowing anything about boats.
Badger North
>>Why should the origin of belt ranks be documented?
>
>Actually, it is. The *actual* origin, that is.
I'm betting on forest goblins myself.
Well, we've got BB's starting with Kano. Cool, that's been documented
out the yin-yang. Now, you'll have to forgive me because a) I only
have one judo book in my collection, and b) I gave up reading the
posts between you and Mike around the same time that google reserved a
server soley for the "Sigman/Holmes Archive". Anyhoo... does Kano
*specifically* state that he invented it sui generis?
>>>And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black belt
>>>came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented *somewhere*.
>>
>>Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
>>the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
>>must be documented somewhere.
>
>A "common" saying? An "old saying"?? One that 'everyone knows'?
>
>If Mike wants to assert this, then I'm going to take the time to point out how
>silly it is.
A common saying in CMA is "all kung fu descends from Shaolin" which
ain't true, but it's everywhere. Frankly, there really is very little
informative writing available in English from CMA. I respect Yang
Jwing-Ming for making an effort to translate stuff, like his book on
hsing-i for instance, because he tried to make it as "cultural" a book
as possible.
Mike Sigman
>
> So, without further evidence, I'll believe you've used the phrase to
> make yourself sound more experienced than you are.
>
Fair enough. Do what you want. Frankly, I don't see that showing the
phrase is legit is going to particularly change anything with you judo boys.
What will you do with the information when you find out that it's as
presented? Nothing. In actuality you're only looking for some other way
to discredit, not learn and not settle an issue.
> > The story is very widely known... if you
> > want to check it out, go run a search on Chinese language sites, which
> > common sense should have told you is going to be necessary in the first
> > place.
> >
>
> If it's widely known, then it should be easily found. If it's not
> easily found, it's not widely known.
It's widely known. I've been in conversations at least 3 times where I've
seen it briefly mentioned among Chinese. The problem is not the saying, the
problem is that it's common knowledge (or common enough in martial arts
circles, to be precise) ***in a language you don't speak or read***. One
of the points I've been trying to make is that your "Judo" is similarly
affected by information which is available but which you miss because it's
***in a language you don't really speak or read*** well enough. And this
same thing also affects the so-called "histories" you guys depend on.
There's too much that got by the writers because they missed things in
reading and conversation to catch all the subtleties, etc. Even a
moment's thought will support the obviousness of what I just said.
>
> So who did you first hear this from?
Bill Chen (Chen Tsu Yu), later Liang Shou Yu, later in conversations at
tournaments involving invited mainland Chinese "names" in CMA.
>
> If you spend much time in judo (or any other competitive style) you
> would quickly find there is a big difference between teaching
> techniques and coaching competitors. There are many expert teachers,
> few expert coaches.
>
> It's the same misconception that have led traditional martial artists
> into competitive arenas where they are woefully unprepared. Knowing the
> techniques is not the same as being able to pull them off against
> highly trained opponents.
>
> The best way to become an elite athlete is to train with, and compete
> against, other elite athletes - and there aren't many opportunities for
> this in the U.S.
I don't disagree with any of that. What I disagree with is the attitude of
some of the supposed "judoka" I'm running into. I've often seen that
"attitudes" and "not so great performances" seem to go hand in hand. If
someone already knows everything, they seldom learn much more and the level
stagnates.
>
>
> > > FWIW (Since E. Amdur, elsewhere, suggested a fourth place finish for
> > > the Chinese) - if you bother to look at the 2000 Olympics results, the
> > > Chinese team placed in the total medal count, behind Japan (8), France
> > > (6), Korea and Cuba (5) and tied with Italy for 4 (Brazil took 2
> > > medals).
> > >
> > > However, all four medals were won by the women's team. The men's team
> > > did worse than the U.S. with 1 seventh place finish, vs 1 fifth and 2
> > > seventh finishes.
> >
> > Give it a couple of years. They don't have a history of practicing
under
> > those rules.
>
> China has women placing in the world champioships since '84, and men at
> the Olympics since '88.
Do you know when mainland China opened back up to the world and how short of
a time it's been?
Mike
Mike Sigman
> introduce philosophy to Westerners, but many Westerners accepted this
> parable as fact. Kind of like Herrigel's Zen Archery.
I don't like the sound of that particular "parable". It sounds like someone
has heard the story and back-incorporated it to reinforce his own smarm.
(Don't tell me D.T. Suzuki wrote it 60 years ago... it sounds too smarmy).
Insofar as "accepting a parable as fact"... "kind of like Herrigel's Zen
Archery", I don't think the book was "parable", just more of a "story"
(although I haven't read it for decades).
>
> It may, or may not be true, but is it really a commonly used phrase
> among weapons experts; or just something Mike made up to bolster his
> claims?
>
Couldn't miss the little dig, could we? :^)
Mike
Badger North
wrote:
>> Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
>> the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
>> must be documented somewhere.
>
>Common sayings do get documented - many times in interviews with
>experts (like the Conversations with Ancestors), collections of
>letters, newspapers. That's one of the archivists keep old books around
>- to save the history of the language itself, not just the topics of
>the books.
Sure, a given. Problem is that fighters aren't usually archivists.
Chinese are also big on accepting rewrites of history.
>> I hadn't heard the blackened shaft reference before, but as someone
>> with some mild acquaintance with the spear, I understand the basis of
>> it.
>
>You hadn't heard it, either? I was under the impression you had. That
>changes things, a little. If you'd heard it from some other source,
>that would lend to authenticity of the phrase. Without that, it's just
>something Mike says.
Nah, hadn't heard it, but it rung true with me. Doesn't matter if
you've heard it before, if you've got some experience in that venue,
you might see the validity of it.
>It may, or may not be true, but is it really a commonly used phrase
>among weapons experts; or just something Mike made up to bolster his
>claims?
Dunno, but there's plenty of stuff still only being passed orally.
Probably 1 in 500 people in North America who practice Chinese spear
who can tell you the very easy method to avoid getting their hands
blistered by the shaft, f'rinstance.
Mike Sigman
I love these almost endless speculations about something of which you know
nothing... always ending with the negative assumption. :^)
Why don't you and I make a little wager about the "blackened spear shaft"
saying? If you want to continue smearing me and you feel sure you're
right, then let's make a bet.... any amount you want. If you're not sure,
then the constant negativity is part of that "attitude" I've been talking
about and you can picture why I consider the attitude and insult. But I
suggest we make the bet so that you begin to understand that when you
approach someone with an "attitude", as I saw you judo boys doing at the
start of these threads, it appears to be an insult that shouldn't go
unremarked.
>
> > Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
> > where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
> > enamoured with spear work.
>
Incidentally, Badger and I are talking about a particular "white wax wood"
that only comes from China. However, it's pretty easy to picture a very
light-colored dowel, fresh from the hardware store, that gets handled
everyday at some sort of work. It obviously gets darker and darker.
That's the simple mechanism behind all of this.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
> then. Good scholars have no problems repeating their sources.
Good scholars don't mind doing their own research, either. Look up the Hu
article and the reference book sources supporting what has been said and
then look up my other sources in past messages.
Mike Sigman
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
I like the old saying "All roads lead to Rome". We can laugh at how silly
that is if we don't know much history and we have atlases and maps going
back 500 years showing it's not true.... but it also shows that we don't
really know the day-to-day history of the Roman Empire. Personally, I
never heard the common saying that "all kung fu descends from Shaolin", but
I'm willing to bet there is such a saying or something close to it, based on
my experience in listening to martial artists over many years.
Mike
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
>
> Dunno, but there's plenty of stuff still only being passed orally.
> Probably 1 in 500 people in North America who practice Chinese spear
> who can tell you the very easy method to avoid getting their hands
> blistered by the shaft, f'rinstance.
OK, I'll bite. What's the "very easy method"? My hands don't blister
because they're toughened from a lot of work. I would assume that someone
whose hands blister just needed to approach it slower. :^)
Besides, I only spend a certain amount of time in spear/pole drills where
there is sliding. Most of my time is spent shaking the damned thing. :^)
Mike
Badger North
wrote:
>And if the weapon is repeatedly waxed, why isn't it also cleaned? What
>kind of wax?
Bees wax. It helps the hand do the requisite sliding as well as
retain impact resistance and flexibility in the wood.
>I can think of long-played guitar,where the lighter, unstained wood
>shows through where the finish has been rubbed away, and of old pool
>cues, where the finish is rubbed from the shaft.
Wax wood is left unfinished - no stain, no shellac. I have a sword
with a hilt made of some Chinese wood - same deal, no finish. It has
turned a much darker shade of brown through years of use.
>If anything, a blackened shaft wouldn't so much represent expertise as
>sloth - kind of like letting your blade become rusty. If it's important
>you tend to take better care.
Wax wood gets more pale if you leave it alone.
>> Although my spears aren't blackened along the shaft, the butt end
>> where the rear hand grips is discoloured. Then again, I'm not really
>> enamoured with spear work.
>
>Discolored, yeah. But if the myth were about grey belts there wouldn't
>be a problem with it not making sense.
Yeah, but "beware the grey, fuzzy-belted shuai jiao practitioner" just
doesn't have that je ne sais quoi.
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
>
> Yeah, but "beware the grey, fuzzy-belted shuai jiao practitioner" just
> doesn't have that je ne sais quoi.
>
I dunno.... it sent chills down my back, just reading it.
Mike
Weirdwolf
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
news:3ef07e4d...@news21.bellnet.ca...
>> >Discolored, yeah. But if the myth were about grey belts there wouldn't
> >be a problem with it not making sense.
>
> Yeah, but "beware the grey, fuzzy-belted shuai jiao practitioner" just
> doesn't have that je ne sais quoi.
>
Damn belly button fluff!!
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Ben Holmes
young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom says...
>
>On 17 Jun 2003 16:19:07 -0700, Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote:
>
>>>Why should the origin of belt ranks be documented?
>>
>>Actually, it is. The *actual* origin, that is.
>
>I'm betting on forest goblins myself.
>
>Well, we've got BB's starting with Kano. Cool, that's been documented
>out the yin-yang. Now, you'll have to forgive me because a) I only
>have one judo book in my collection, and b) I gave up reading the
>posts between you and Mike around the same time that google reserved a
>server soley for the "Sigman/Holmes Archive". Anyhoo... does Kano
>*specifically* state that he invented it sui generis?
*That* I don't know the answer to. I'd suspect that he must have, since so many
sources list Kano as the first one to use belt rank. There's a tremendous body
of information that is still locked up in Japanese.
>>>>And if someone is trying to assert, as Mike is, that the idea for black belt
>>>>came from a Chinese "old saying", then it should be documented *somewhere*.
>>>
>>>Well, I personally don't put much stock as that being the origin of
>>>the black belt. However, even if it were, it doesn't equate that it
>>>must be documented somewhere.
>>
>>A "common" saying? An "old saying"?? One that 'everyone knows'?
>>
>>If Mike wants to assert this, then I'm going to take the time to point out
>>how silly it is.
>
>A common saying in CMA is "all kung fu descends from Shaolin" which
>ain't true, but it's everywhere.
Yep... that's the point. If Mike's revision of history were actually *true*,
you *would* be able to find it everywhere.
Ben Holmes
I thought... for the fun of it... that I'd snip all personal insults and
untruths, and respond to any factual statements or questions:
In article <5851796.03061...@posting.google.com>,
sylen...@yahoo.com says...
>
>Ben Holmes <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:<4ptsevkq94n9nf5k0...@4ax.com>...
>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:43:06 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
>> <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Taken from "Getting Frustrated with School" thread:
>>>
>>>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>>>news:bcllp...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>>>>not solely due to Kano's Judo teaching. Stories of him appear in Daito-
>>>>>Ryu histories
>>>>
>>>> Nope... not quite. They appear in RECENT histories... you *cannot* locate
>>>> him in contemporary records doing what Daito Ryu believes he did.
>>>
>>>Gee, Holmes.... here's a classic example of you arguing against modern
>>>histories in favor of older histories
>
>I agree to that!
And just below, I show why this is untrue. I'll restate, however... there
*aren't* any *true* modern histories that are NOT in line with older ones. Take
a look, for example, at Pranin's interviews with Daito Ryu masters... this is,
in any way you care to look at it, a modern "history". And it doesn't
contradict older source material at *all*. When I used the term "RECENT"
histories, I'm referring mainly to websites that are spreading the new urban
legends about Shiro Saigo. Had you read my article, this might have been
obvious to you.
>> Now see? Here's the trouble you can get into when you try to jump
>> into something you know nothing of.
<snipped>
>> When I used the term "recent histories", I'm referring to the
>> "history" sections in martial art's books. *REAL* 'histories' on this
>> topic don't have contradictions like this.
<snipped>
>> Martial scholars who've studied all the citations come to the same
>> conclusion that I did. Or, rather more accurately, I *believe* the
>> conclusions that scholars have come to.
<snipped>
>> >(by western martial artists trying to be "history scholars")
>>
>> Japanese, too!
<snipped>
>> But why would you care? You don't recognize *any* scholar or
>> historian as being credible. You can't... since it would be a
>> yard-stick against which your own assertions could be measured.
<snipped>
>> >and yet you argue the other side about Chen Yuan Yun,
>> >poo-pooing old recorded and recognized history in favor of what suits your
>> >personal belief.
>>
>> Are you getting confused? In *both* cases, I prefer the earliest
>> records over those much later.
>
>Of course, you would Ben.
This attitude is not exactly unknown in academic circles. In fact, it would be
hard to come up with a field of study in which the thing being studied was many
years ago, in which ancient records are *not* preferred. Can you give us an
example? Why would you prefer records from years, decades, or generations
later?
<snipped>
>...earlier records are not as easy to prove in some cases
>where information in not accurately document.
This is not a reason to discard earlier records in place of later ones. When
you have a situation such as Shiro Saigo, and *no* written sources prior to the
1970's (Off the top of my head, here...) list him as having studied Daito Ryu,
then there's reason to doubt. *Particularly* when all of the highest ranking,
and longest training Daito Ryu Jujutsuka all state the same thing.
In any case, he certainly never studied something *called* Daito Ryu, since it
didn't have that name until much later. In fact, there's a good deal of
evidence (from silence) that Daito Ryu *never* predated Sokaku Takeda. There is
*no* documentation of such an art predating Takeda. I suspect that the majority
of martial art scholars that have researched this have come to the conclusion
that Daito Ryu, as a separate art, was the invention of Sokaku Takeda. If that
conclusion is correct, then it would have been *physically* impossible for Shiro
Saigo to have studied Daito Ryu, under *any* name.
<snipped>
>>>In other words, once again you out yourself as a complete
>>>egocentric hypocrite.
<snipped>
>> Come on, Mike, you can admit it... go ahead, admit that the Japanese
>> record itself is contradictory... come on Mike, you can do it!!
<snipped>
>> Admit that one of your *own* sources contradicts your theory... come
>> on, Mike, you can do it!
<snipped>
Badger North
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Dunno, but there's plenty of stuff still only being passed orally.
>> Probably 1 in 500 people in North America who practice Chinese spear
>> who can tell you the very easy method to avoid getting their hands
>> blistered by the shaft, f'rinstance.
>
>OK, I'll bite. What's the "very easy method"? My hands don't blister
>because they're toughened from a lot of work. I would assume that someone
>whose hands blister just needed to approach it slower. :^)
Most waxwood shafts are sanded not just smooth, but flat. If the
bumps where the branches were removed are smoothed out but not
leveled, it keeps the wood from providing continuous friction on any
single area of the palm.
Damn you, Sigman, now it's on the Internet for all to read!
>Besides, I only spend a certain amount of time in spear/pole drills where
>there is sliding. Most of my time is spent shaking the damned thing. :^)
Does Chen-style do any double-ended staff work?
Badger North
<weirdwolf@ntl(hatespam)world.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, but "beware the grey, fuzzy-belted shuai jiao practitioner" just
>> doesn't have that je ne sais quoi.
>>
> Besides if that were true I'd have the worlds deadliest navel.
>Damn belly button fluff!!
Heh - true story:
One of the reasons Kevin came to train with us was because I got bored
manning the table, so kept making little signs to add to the display -
"Learn the fearsome flying finger OF DEATH!"
"Learn the terrible tapping toe OF DEATH!"
"Learn the baleful bouncing bellybutton OF DEATH!"
Kevin figured that at least he'd get a laugh out of class.
Mike Sigman
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
>
> Most waxwood shafts are sanded not just smooth, but flat. If the
> bumps where the branches were removed are smoothed out but not
> leveled, it keeps the wood from providing continuous friction on any
> single area of the palm.
Hmmmmm. I don't have any spears that are smooth and flat. All of them
have a reasonable amount of bumps here and there from where small branches
were cut off and I don't think any of them were ever sanded except where the
branches were cut off. I practice mainly with 10-12 foot poles. I have a
couple of good spears, but I tend to do spear drills with 1-inch solid steel
rods about 7-feet long.
>
> Damn you, Sigman, now it's on the Internet for all to read!
Omigod.... half the people who read that will start "teaching" within the
next week, probably..
>
> >Besides, I only spend a certain amount of time in spear/pole drills where
> >there is sliding. Most of my time is spent shaking the damned thing.
:^)
>
> Does Chen-style do any double-ended staff work?
A little bit is in the practice, but there is no emphasis on it. There are
2 basic forms in use, one of which uses the long pole (10-15 feet long) and
the other is called "Pear Blossom Spear/White Ape Staff" meaning that it can
be used either way. My interest is almost always on the body-training
focuses of various moves, rather than the martial application.... if you
don't have certain strengths, the "applications" don't work too well anyway.
FWIW
Mike
Mike Sigman
> > > > jiao (which was first mentioned on RMA by some of us probably around
10
> > > > years ago), knowledge of it will spread with various westerners
finally
> > > > affixing an "urban legend" tag to it.
> > >
> > > I just spent five minutes researching the above. Why don't you back
> > > it up?
> >
> > Back what up????.... that you spent five minutes researching????
> > Hmmmmmmmmmmm..... when did DejaNews begin archiving RMA?????
>
> back more than ten years.
>
I don't know what to tell you and I don't care very much.... you're still
anonymous. It was discussed. Ask Gombosi or one of the others that was
around in earlier days.... the "blackened belt" is no new topic to RMA.
>> > > I've recently reviewed your initial set of tapes and I was very
> > > impressed by the footage of you in your yellow bathrobe or whatever it
> > > was, doing some sort of tye-jee form. You certainly knew how to dress
> > > the part. I was less impressed by the constant audible intake of
> > > breath every time you finished saying something. Speaks to
> > > production, for one thing, and you might want to raise it with your
> > > doctor, for another.
> >
> > It speaks to not having a script, being nervous, and ad-libbing like mad
> > because I was too lackadaisical to put forth a lot of effort. That was
the
> > first set of tapes, not the second set. Mail them to me and I'll
autograph
> > them... or maybe not mail them back to you. :^))))
>
> Well, you certainly dressed the part. I've asked some
> bodyguard-level Chinese speaking Asians who read this forum and know
> Chen Xiaowang to evaluate your form and email me privately.
And you still think that your anonymous messages are carrying a lot of
concern and weight and credibility? Try signing your name if you want to
get into the conversation.
Mike Sigman
John
> In article <3eedd2de...@news21.bellnet.ca>, Badger North
> <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:44:03 -0500, Peter Claussen <bo...@itctel.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >For a logical perspective, you can't use a black-hafted spear to
> > >support the black-belt assertion, without first demonstrating that the
> > >black-spear exists. It has the same problem as the black belt myth -
> > >don't these people wipe down their weapons occasionally?
> >
> > Has nothing to do with wiping the weapon down. Take a look at a grip
> > on a long-used tool, and you'll see the wood darkened and burnished.
> > With a Chinese-style wax wood spear, the shaft is occasionally waxed,
> > which would contribute to the discolouring over time.
> >
>
> I grew up on a farm, working with a lot of long-used tools. Shovels,
> pitchforks, hoes, rakes, sickles, hammers, you name it. I don't
> remember the wood becoming darkened - it may actually lighten,
> depending on the wood and original stain. But the next time I visit the
> folks I'll take a look.
I used to work on a farm, and the problem is your example doesn't
carry over well to spear use.
You use shovels, hoes, etc., put them on the ground, pick them back
up, etc. and let the grime cake all over the stick. And unless the
tool fell in manure, there's little reason to try and clean it.
But suppose you have a new tool. At first, the stick will probably
get dark where hands hold them, but eventually, the grime will cake
all over and the hands will actually clean off some of the grime where
the it is being held.
Hence the "lightening" you're talking about.
But try and wipe off all of the grime using whatever oils and
chemicals, and see where the stick is darkest.
> And if the weapon is repeatedly waxed, why isn't it also cleaned? What
> kind of wax?
>
> I can think of long-played guitar,where the lighter, unstained wood
> shows through where the finish has been rubbed away, and of old pool
> cues, where the finish is rubbed from the shaft.
Umm, bullshit or apples-and-oranges? Take your pick.
He said "..Take a look at a grip..."
I own a nice beginner Martin and as I'm a piss-poor guitar player, I
tend to stay within the first 5 frets when strumming chords and/or
finger picking.
The face side of the neck is noticeably darker within the first five
frets because of all of the oil and dirt from the fingers that have
accumulated over the years, and this is only from occasional use.
Why? Because the wood on the fret side of the neck is sanded down and
probably stained but not finished, so this sort of darkening is only
natural and it's probably difficult to remove as it's more or less
stained.
Now that said...I don't know if you've seen waxwood poles, but they
generally don't put a shiny finish on it that you;d see on guitars.
Chinese spears tend to be springy and flexible, so any sort of finish
would simply crack and peel off.
> If anything, a blackened shaft wouldn't so much represent expertise as
> sloth - kind of like letting your blade become rusty. If it's important
> you tend to take better care.
>
> Kind of like going around with an old, frayed, black belt. It may make
> you look like an expert, but it doesn't last too long if you wear it in
> competition.
>
> So, no, the story just doesn't ring true.
Because your knowledge on the subject is missing some key information.
Badger North
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Damn you, Sigman, now it's on the Internet for all to read!
>
>Omigod.... half the people who read that will start "teaching" within the
>next week, probably..
Heh... One of my KF brothers came up with a little sequence of hits
he called "walk in smiling, walk out smiling." Imagine his surprise
the first time someone showed them this "ancient" technique they had
learned called... you know the rest of the story.
story
--
To reply direct it is STORYS @ EXECULINK DOT COM ALL LOWER CASE LETTERS
"Peter Claussen" <bo...@itctel.com> wrote in message
news:180620030900237275%bo...@itctel.com...
> This makes the myth of the black belt sound more like a lesson to
> introduce philosophy to Westerners, but many Westerners accepted this
> parable as fact. Kind of like Herrigel's Zen Archery.
>
Sounds more to me like someone trying to inject some mysticism into
something that doesn't really have it. I replace my belt as it grows shabby.
Maybe it's just me or the way I was brought up but I like to look neat when
I am in what amounts to a uniform. I would feel messy if I wore a frayed
belt. One thing that really confirmed me in this view was a bunch of people
I know when out and bought very expensive belts that were guaranteed to fray
quickly. Kinda negates the seniority thing doesn't it.
....................Tom..................
Ben Holmes
Watch out! Mike gets irritated when you toss around French phrases.
He doesn't know how to spell them...
Steve Williams
I am really glad that your are such a well trained ( NOT ) scholar (
NOT ). Ben you clearly demonstrate the lack of research and
arguementation skills. This is probably why you get silence from the
Daito Ryu group and lack of evidence which you pawn off as silence
which you intend for us to take as fact. I bet your an X-Files
groupie. The kind that think the Gov. is hidding information about
aliens from the general public. That these aliens are amoung us now as
we speak. Ever consider a career as a tabliod hack writer, cause you
have the gift.