Why punch from the hip?

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General Fear

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Aug 5, 2006, 10:46:04 PM8/5/06
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In boxing, the boxer keeps his hands up on either side of his face for
protection. Punches are thrown from this position. One hand goes out,
the other stays by the face for protection.

Why does karate require that you put trhow a punch from the hip? What
is gained by this?

..

BURKE THE BOLD

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Aug 5, 2006, 10:52:03 PM8/5/06
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*****************************************************************************************************

I suspect it is done so a person can learn how to get the power from
his hips into his punches.

Bruce Lee's power, for example, was supposed to have come from the
hips.

GreendistantNOSPAMstar

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Aug 5, 2006, 11:29:06 PM8/5/06
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"General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

Nothing. You'll notice also that many karate blocks are blocks to just such
punches. So in essence what you are learning is blocks to punches that only
other karateka will be throwing. You can get mighty good at it, too, but
you'll still be learning something with almost zero application outside
karate.

I had a young kid work for me a couple of years ago; he was a mad keen
karateka. He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life scenarion, as
he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it would all
come together' if he had to use it.

A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma training,
the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response? Learn more
kata. <sigh>

GDS


Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 12:06:44 AM8/6/06
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"General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>

It is an exercise done in horse stance. The stance strength the legs and the
punches are middle punch, high punched, high block, inside block, outside
block and neck chop. It has to do with keeping ones mind working will going
into oxygen debt. There are many more moves that don't translate to
fighting. They require a step forward into long stance with a turn. It is
simpler to marching in the Army It does not translate to fighting, it does
make one instantly and blindly obey orders.

The problem is you are clueless about traditional martial art and love to
roll with sweaty men pertaining to be a bad ass. You will last a few years
then become old and fat.


Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 12:21:02 AM8/6/06
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"GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:6mdBg.7371$rP1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma
> training, the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His
> response? Learn more kata. <sigh>
>
> GDS

I grow weary educating the ignorant. In free sparring the horse stance and
punching from the hips in not use. One uses what ever scores. Why does the
US Army march? Is it to learn to fight? NO. It has a reason that is beyond a
pseudo bad ass's understanding. In ten years you are a crippled old man
sitting on the couch. In TMA I am still hip punching from the horse stance.
This is like trying to explain the string theory to apes.

I used to take this seriously, I now know it is a joke and pseudo bad asses
are not worth the trouble. You are nothing and will be gone in 10 years and
be fat old couch potatoes as you will not learn discipline and self
motivation. You will also have permanent head aches and slur your speech,
enjoy.


ragtag99

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Aug 6, 2006, 12:29:13 AM8/6/06
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>From my understanding the US Army is moving away from the importance of
marching and a lot of drill and ceremony (D&C) because it has no combat
application. Generals are saying [who cares if they can't salute they
need to fire a weapon and stay alive in combat.]
In the platoon leadership developement course (PLDC a form of BASIC for
sergeants-to-be) they don't go into D&C anymore and leave it up to the
platoon level. The only time we really march is during PT to get to
the PT area, or during a change of command ceremony or some other
friviality.

Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 12:49:00 AM8/6/06
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"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154838553....@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>>From my understanding the US Army is moving away from the importance of
> marching and a lot of drill and ceremony (D&C) because it has no combat
> application. Generals are saying [who cares if they can't salute they
> need to fire a weapon and stay alive in combat.]

That shows you have the understand of a turnip. Marching gets civilians used
to instant blind obeisance to orders . Instant blind obeisance to orders it
the corner stone to battle. You cant bull shit because I don't speak form
theory of conjecture.Thank you for showing you don't have a clue. Don't
worry you fit right it with the 99 and 44/100% of the clueless bastards that
post to rec.martial-arts. I get a laugh out of rec.martial-arts now that I
know very few have a clue and most are wannabes that never will. I respect
less then one half of one percent of the posters and you are not one of
them.


Fraser Johnston

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Aug 6, 2006, 1:36:45 AM8/6/06
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"General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>

It is so karate guys are easy to ktfo.

Fraser


ragtag99

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Aug 6, 2006, 5:08:43 AM8/6/06
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Tell that to the Army, because they ARE moving away from it. Wasn't my
idea. The army is changing and a lot of the old theory is being phased
out. Sergeants work with soldiers and soldiers are encouraged more to
think on their own. I know revolutionary right. But other countries
have been training that way for years so maybe america finally caught
on.

Shuurai

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Aug 6, 2006, 10:34:12 AM8/6/06
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GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
> "General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > In boxing, the boxer keeps his hands up on either side of his face for
> > protection. Punches are thrown from this position. One hand goes out,
> > the other stays by the face for protection.
> >
> > Why does karate require that you put trhow a punch from the hip? What
> > is gained by this?
>
> Nothing. You'll notice also that many karate blocks are blocks to just such
> punches. So in essence what you are learning is blocks to punches that only
> other karateka will be throwing. You can get mighty good at it, too, but
> you'll still be learning something with almost zero application outside
> karate.

Actually you're wrong. What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
can actually work pretty well.

> I had a young kid work for me a couple of years ago; he was a mad keen
> karateka.

And how do you define a 'mad keen' karateka? What style did he study?
How did they train?

> He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
> what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life scenarion, as
> he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it would all
> come together' if he had to use it.

Which pretty much answers my "how did they train" question.

> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma training,
> the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response? Learn more
> kata. <sigh>

So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!

Fraser Johnston

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Aug 6, 2006, 10:48:58 AM8/6/06
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"Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154874852.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
> adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!

It was for him.

Fraser


Chas

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Aug 6, 2006, 11:01:57 AM8/6/06
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"Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote

> Actually you're wrong. What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
> strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
> can actually work pretty well.

You carry your hands lower when you can get hit with a foot/leg/knee/elbow,
than you do when you're only targetable from the navel up.
Look at MMA right now- the whole body-carriage has to change when the target
area changesduh.
Go try to be a boxer in mma- you'll get the shit pounded out of you.

> So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
> adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!

You've kinda got two ways to learn to fight; go fight, or study them as
does.
Most people try to learn to fight without having to take that ass-whipping
on the installment plan.
All of you are suffering from training injuries, and only a few have ever
had to actually fight- as opposed to 'rough sparring' or 'limited
competition'.
If you're going to be an office worker, trying to limit your injuries is a
good idea.
If you're going to be a pug, your injuries in training are the price you
have to pay.
My advice to the kid is not to learn more kata-
it's to do the one he already has.
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)


Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 1:07:49 PM8/6/06
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"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154855323.4...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> Tell that to the Army, because they ARE moving away from it. Wasn't my
> idea. The army is changing and a lot of the old theory is being phased
> out. Sergeants work with soldiers and soldiers are encouraged more to
> think on their own. I know revolutionary right. But other countries
> have been training that way for years so maybe america finally caught
> on.

OK let me get this straight. In a fire fight an NCO give orders the enlisted
man does not have to do it instantly, he can think for himself and make his
own decision? What Army are you in and what is your MOS?


Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 1:12:36 PM8/6/06
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"Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154874852.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is


> adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!

Post a picture or video of your last tournament. You can't because you are a
fucking rec.martial-arts homosexual, pencil necked geek living in your
mother's basement. I can smell your fear.


ragtag99

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Aug 6, 2006, 2:41:21 PM8/6/06
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WOW, where are you coming from guy? Lower enlisted are encouraged to
add more to the decission process, like giving their input during
training and recommend modifications. A firefight is a firefight and
you do what the NCO tells you to generally. If machine gun fire is
coming and he yells 'run from behind this vehical to that burm' which
isnt that intelligent both you get drilled, lower enlisted for
listening to him and the NCO gets drilled for making that order. This
is the US Army and like I said its changing. If you dont like it write
to general Shoomaker (sp? dont care), instead of posting on RMA, and
i'm sure he'll take whatever you say into concideration.

Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 3:32:29 PM8/6/06
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"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154889681.3...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>
> WOW, where are you coming from guy? Lower enlisted are encouraged to
> add more to the decission process, like giving their input during
> training and recommend modifications. A firefight is a firefight and
> you do what the NCO tells you to generally. If machine gun fire is
> coming and he yells 'run from behind this vehical to that burm' which
> isnt that intelligent both you get drilled, lower enlisted for
> listening to him and the NCO gets drilled for making that order. This
> is the US Army and like I said its changing. If you dont like it write
> to general Shoomaker (sp? dont care), instead of posting on RMA, and
> i'm sure he'll take whatever you say into concideration

What Army are you in and what is your MOS? How many fire fights have you
been in?

Let me get this straight. The command comes down to move out and attack an
enemy position. The enlisted men would then enter into a discussion with the
commanders about the merits of such a decision and suggest alternate ways to
proceed.

Topo Gigio

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Aug 6, 2006, 4:45:54 PM8/6/06
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"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154889681.3...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> WOW, where are you coming from guy? Lower enlisted are encouraged to
> add more to the decission process, like giving their input during
> training and recommend modifications.


I must know if I am talking to one in the know or the typical
rec.martial-arts poster.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and will exchange ideas with
you. I do this because I hope you know what you are talking about. If you
are the typical rec.martial-arts poster I am pissing into the wind.

What are your credentials? Are you in the Army? What is your MOS.? If you
are 11 Bravo you have my attention.

That said; this is Army Basic Training.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arbasicpol/bldrill.htm

How will a platoon be able to compete in Drill Competition if they don't
drill?

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arbasicpol/bldrill.htm

How can one man control hundreds of people if they do not instantly obey
commands?

I attended a sparring seminar sponsored by a school I never attended. There
were about 20 different schools present. About 100 students attended.

In a civilian population 100 people getting together for the first time
would be a cluster fuck. The Grand Master of the school sponsoring the
seminar gave a few commands and 100 people moved as one. We instantly lined
up and with the command mediation positions all instantly in unison dropped
to our knees, the Army equivalent of parade rest. We were given instructions
and all did as they were told and the seminar went smoothly and safely.

In sparring when the referee says stop one must instantly stop, one can not
think, is this best for me.

OK, I have done some digging and came across this.

*The first day, trainees are issued mock M-16s made of hard rubber that have
the look, feel and weight of an actual rifle.*

A fucking toy gun, you have to be shitting me. In my day they would give
minor criminals a choice, Army or jail. The ones that chose Army were later
sorry but it was too late.

EVERYONE to a man was issues a genuine working M-14. The M-14 was issued
because it had a better balance for marching and close order
drill--Attention, right shoulder arms, present arms, and left shoulder arms.
The M-14 was also used for bayonet practice as it had a better feel and
balance. We qualified on the range in both the M-14 and M-16. We did
everything in combat boots, including the mile run.

Fuck, I'm going to re-up, sounds like the good life to me.

rchrdk...@yahoo.com

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Aug 6, 2006, 6:19:30 PM8/6/06
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If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street, are you going to
have your hands up in a boxers' stance, or are you going to have them
by your sides, closer to your hip?

ragtag99

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Aug 6, 2006, 9:00:24 PM8/6/06
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I am in the US Army, but not an 11B, although its of no concequence
beings we're in a wartime enviornment and every MOS from finance to
medics to mechanics are required to do the same combat drills as
infantry including room clearing, convoy operations, ruckmarches, 4
mile runs and of course weapons. Each company has at minimum m-16 and
SAWs (m249) gunners. Infantry, MPs, etc have more weapon systems of
course.

Things changed a lot. I think that about.com article is a bit outdated.
When i was in basic they recently got rid of D&C competitions. The
drill sergeants were also saying how they agreed with it, and they were
the ones who told me about the generals moving away from D&C in order
to concentrate on more combat oriented skills.
Nobody runs in combat boots or does any PT in them (except
ruckmarches), beings it creates more injuries than its worth. The
entire physical training (PT) regimen has been modified getting rid of
irrelevant albeit trying exercises like reverse pushups, alligator
walks, POW crawls, skull draggers and even the mountain climber. The
new regiment is used to condition muscles used in wartime for a wartime
purpose. If i can find FM 21-20 ill send it to you if youre interested,
it explains it in more detail.

I dont know what there talking about with the plastic weapon. I was
just talking to people who got out of basic and they were saying that
they had to carry their assigne M16 with them whereever they went and
locked it up at the foot of their bed at night.

And another change im sure youll love this judging from your other
posts, the new hand-to-hand combat training is taught by the Gracies.
Its broken into 4 levels level 1 being the 1-2-3's of bjj so its all
top, side, back mounts, chokes etc. Level 2 is more advanced bjj level
3 incorporates striking and level 4 is straight out UFC training. The
honor grad of the level 4 school competes in full contact competitions
on behalf of the army.

People still listen to the NCOs over them, its the training that
soldier have more say in and their part in the grand scheme of things
is now a bit more than animated robots (just a bit). In a firefight if
an orders given and not followed its still insubordination. When
commanders say roll out, you roll out. But they realized that D&C isnt
an important part of discipline and could be phased out in order to
train in more practical needs.

GreendistantNOSPAMstar

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Aug 6, 2006, 10:37:54 PM8/6/06
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"Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154874852.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
>> "General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > In boxing, the boxer keeps his hands up on either side of his face for
>> > protection. Punches are thrown from this position. One hand goes out,
>> > the other stays by the face for protection.
>> >
>> > Why does karate require that you put trhow a punch from the hip? What
>> > is gained by this?
>>
>> Nothing. You'll notice also that many karate blocks are blocks to just
>> such
>> punches. So in essence what you are learning is blocks to punches that
>> only
>> other karateka will be throwing. You can get mighty good at it, too, but
>> you'll still be learning something with almost zero application outside
>> karate.
>
> Actually you're wrong.

You think so? I've been watching karateka for decades and nothing I've seen
has ever changed my opinion...this incident merely confirmed it.

What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
> strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
> can actually work pretty well.

Obviously in this case, they didn't work.

>> I had a young kid work for me a couple of years ago; he was a mad keen
>> karateka.
>
> And how do you define a 'mad keen' karateka?

Trains several times per week at least. Beyond that I'd just be guessing.

What style did he study?
> How did they train?

I'll agree that there are a handful of karate styles that are somewhat
effective, but those are only so because their training is more alive and
their techniques less hopeless.
Kyokushin is one, but that wasn't his style, unfortunately for him.

>> He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
>> what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life scenarion,
>> as
>> he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it would
>> all
>> come together' if he had to use it.
>
> Which pretty much answers my "how did they train" question.

Yeah, pretty much....

>> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma
>> training,
>> the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response? Learn
>> more
>> kata. <sigh>
>
> So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
> adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!

Tell me about it....

GDS

Dame Mavis

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Aug 7, 2006, 1:44:21 AM8/7/06
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It is total nonsense of course to throw from the hip in basics

In most styles (e.g. Kyokushin, Shotokan) they practice basic punches thrown
from the hips , yet in sparring the instructor tells students keep you hands
up (in boxing guard position)

Something of a massive contradiction and reality clash even within their own
style.

training students to throw punches from the hip and then telling them to
spar from a boxers rank in nonsensical


Mavis


"General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>

Topo Gigio

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Aug 7, 2006, 1:39:47 AM8/7/06
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"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154912424....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

> And another change im sure youll love this judging from your other
> posts, the new hand-to-hand combat training is taught by the Gracies.
> Its broken into 4 levels level 1 being the 1-2-3's of bjj so its all
> top, side, back mounts, chokes etc. Level 2 is more advanced bjj level
> 3 incorporates striking and level 4 is straight out UFC training. The
> honor grad of the level 4 school competes in full contact competitions
> on behalf of the army.

Don't blow smoke up my ass. The FM 21-150 Combatives is the cureent manual.
No leg humping bjj. Try again REMF.


Topo Gigio

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Aug 7, 2006, 1:42:05 AM8/7/06
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"GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:6IxBg.7902$rP1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

>> So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
>> adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!
>
> Tell me about it....
>
> GDS

I explained it to you, but it didn't include leg humping so you weren't
interested.


GreendistantNOSPAMstar

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Aug 7, 2006, 2:10:45 AM8/7/06
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"Topo Gigio" <andrew...@1asealsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NoABg.6340$l95.1623@trnddc08...

I wasn't talking to you.

GDS

ps I thought you liked leg-humping?


theoriginaldimi

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Aug 7, 2006, 3:54:40 AM8/7/06
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General Fear schreef:

Boxers have huge gloves, which makes it a lot easier to cover up your
face. And they don't have to worry about takedowns, kicks or knees,
which allows them to bob & weave.

With bare hands and the possibility for kicks, knees and takesdowns you
cannot just keep your clenched fists in front of your face and hope to
be allright.

And additionally many karatekas still believe that one punch will kill
the opponent (or at least render them incapable of attacking) so there
is no need for them to cover up once they have struck the opponent.

Dimitri

PointyShinyBurning

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Aug 7, 2006, 6:28:14 AM8/7/06
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Topo Gigio wrote:
> "ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1154912424....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don't blow smoke up my ass. The FM 21-150 Combatives is the cureent manual.
> No leg humping bjj. Try again REMF.
Not anymore:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html

One of the authors, Matt Larsen, posts quite extensively at
http://www.e-budo.com if you want to argue with him.

ragtag99

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Aug 7, 2006, 9:14:56 AM8/7/06
to

Thanks for the legwork PSB, at least 4 people in my platoon are level 1
and the captian is level 4 so i knew what i was talking about, i just
didnt feel like looking it up.

TopGigilo,
Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?

suds mcduff

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Aug 7, 2006, 9:28:57 AM8/7/06
to

> TopGigilo,
> Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?

----An acronym from the VN war, Rear Eschelon Mother Fucker

Herbert Cannon

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Aug 7, 2006, 10:45:42 AM8/7/06
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"suds mcduff" <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154957337....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

>
>> TopGigilo,
>> Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?
>
> ----An acronym from the VN war, Rear Eschelon Mother Fucker

Yup


Herbert Cannon

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Aug 7, 2006, 10:56:37 AM8/7/06
to

>>
>> *The first day, trainees are issued mock M-16s made of hard rubber that
>> have
>> the look, feel and weight of an actual rifle.*

You gotta be kidding me.


> I am in the US Army, but not an 11B, although its of no concequence
> beings we're in a wartime enviornment and every MOS from finance to
> medics to mechanics are required to do the same combat drills as
> infantry including room clearing, convoy operations, ruckmarches, 4
> mile runs and of course weapons. Each company has at minimum m-16 and
> SAWs (m249) gunners. Infantry, MPs, etc have more weapon systems of
> course.
>
> Things changed a lot. I think that about.com article is a bit outdated.
> When i was in basic they recently got rid of D&C competitions. The
> drill sergeants were also saying how they agreed with it, and they were
> the ones who told me about the generals moving away from D&C in order
> to concentrate on more combat oriented skills.

Ok I know there are computer simulators that will simulate every weapon in
the Divisions and that are used for training.

> Nobody runs in combat boots or does any PT in them (except
> ruckmarches), beings it creates more injuries than its worth.

And in combat? Obviously you cannot change to sneakers. The reason the
Marine Coprs put its recruits in sneakers - is simply it was losing to many
recruits to stress factures. Young people are more likely to sit behind
computers watch TV and ride in cars than the older generation, who ealked a
lot more. USMC toughened the bones up and then moved them over to combat
boots.
I remember the training at Ft Polk in tiger land for Nam. Ambulances
followed behind companies to pick up the heat stroke victims.

The
> entire physical training (PT) regimen has been modified getting rid of
> irrelevant albeit trying exercises like reverse pushups, alligator
> walks, POW crawls, skull draggers and even the mountain climber. The
> new regiment is used to condition muscles used in wartime for a wartime
> purpose. If i can find FM 21-20 ill send it to you if youre interested,
> it explains it in more detail.

I hated calensthentics.


>
> I dont know what there talking about with the plastic weapon. I was
> just talking to people who got out of basic and they were saying that
> they had to carry their assigne M16 with them whereever they went and
> locked it up at the foot of their bed at night.
>
> And another change im sure youll love this judging from your other
> posts, the new hand-to-hand combat training is taught by the Gracies.
> Its broken into 4 levels level 1 being the 1-2-3's of bjj so its all
> top, side, back mounts, chokes etc. Level 2 is more advanced bjj level
> 3 incorporates striking and level 4 is straight out UFC training. The
> honor grad of the level 4 school competes in full contact competitions
> on behalf of the army.

Yup I heard that.


>
> People still listen to the NCOs over them, its the training that
> soldier have more say in and their part in the grand scheme of things
> is now a bit more than animated robots (just a bit). In a firefight if
> an orders given and not followed its still insubordination.

Well I would hope so.

When
> commanders say roll out, you roll out. But they realized that D&C isnt
> an important part of discipline and could be phased out in order to
> train in more practical needs.

Perhaps you need to be reminded of of how Hackworth said he was trained by
WW II NCOs and we got our asses wiped in Korea until the WW II vets were
called back in.


Herbert Cannon

unread,
Aug 7, 2006, 10:59:52 AM8/7/06
to

> If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street, are you going to
> have your hands up in a boxers' stance, or are you going to have them
> by your sides, closer to your hip?

Close to my hip by my holster.


Herbert Cannon

unread,
Aug 7, 2006, 11:03:21 AM8/7/06
to

>
> Boxers have huge gloves, which makes it a lot easier to cover up your
> face.

Are you talking about 16 oz training gloves or 8 oz ring gloves?

And they don't have to worry about takedowns, kicks or knees,
> which allows them to bob & weave.

True.

> With bare hands and the possibility for kicks, knees and takesdowns you
> cannot just keep your clenched fists in front of your face and hope to
> be allright.

I notice in the UFC fights I watch the most often used attacks are with
fists.

> And additionally many karatekas still believe that one punch will kill
> the opponent (or at least render them incapable of attacking) so there
> is no need for them to cover up once they have struck the opponent.

Well one punch can pretty well stun an opponent -sez I as one who has been
stunned and there are KOs. even with boxing gloves.


Wayne Dobson

unread,
Aug 7, 2006, 1:02:01 PM8/7/06
to
"Topo Gigio" <andrew...@1asealsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0xeBg.1864$Lh4.1298@trnddc02...

>
> "ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1154838553....@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>From my understanding the US Army is moving away from the importance of
> > marching and a lot of drill and ceremony (D&C) because it has no combat
> > application. Generals are saying [who cares if they can't salute they
> > need to fire a weapon and stay alive in combat.]
>
> That shows you have the understand of a turnip. Marching gets civilians
used
> to instant blind obeisance to orders.

That's about right. It's a psychological tool. It's gets individuals to
think of themselves as part of a group. It's also a good indicator of
whether or not the conditioning is working.

--
Wayne
AKA "Dobbie the House Elf"


Sam the Bam

unread,
Aug 7, 2006, 8:23:18 PM8/7/06
to
rchrdk...@yahoo.com wrote:
> If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,

Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?

(except of course at bus stations, which, as any
self-defense clinic attendee knows, are the most
dangerous places on earth)

Sam

Chas

unread,
Aug 7, 2006, 10:58:25 PM8/7/06
to
"Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote

>> If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,
> Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
> outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?

Yeah- a number of times, matter of fact.
I've had guys that I had a prior beef with attack me when they saw me; a few
crazy guys; attempted muggings that started with a sunday punch from
surprise- stuff like that.

Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 12:36:35 AM8/8/06
to

"PointyShinyBurning" <PointyShi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154946494....@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

This makes me want to puke.

*Soldiers must be prepared to use different levels of force in an
environment where conflict may change from low intensity to high intensity
over a matter of hours. Many military operations, such as peacekeeping
missions or noncombatant evacuation, may restrict the use of deadly weapons.
Hand-to-hand combatives training will save lives when an unexpected
confrontation occurs.*

The mission of the Infantry is to close with and destroy the enemy not
saving lives. What is the spirit of the bayonet? The spirit of the bayonet
is to kill and to kill again without mercy. This is why Iraq is a cluster
fuck and will be a cluster fuck for a thousand years. The Infantry is not
the police; the Infantry does not go around writing parking tickets. Fuck
the pussafaction of the Army and America.


Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 12:53:07 AM8/8/06
to

"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154956496....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

You are in the Army?? What fucking Army are you in if you don't know REMF is
Rear Echelon Mother Fucker.


Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 12:57:59 AM8/8/06
to

"suds mcduff" <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154957337....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> TopGigilo,
>> Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?
>
> ----An acronym from the VN war, Rear Eschelon Mother Fucker

I ass/u/me everybody is now a REMF in the Army. Oh don't hurt them, they
will be our friends. Next thing you will tell me there are no free fire
zones and recon by fire is not permitted. Vietnam was one fucked up war but
this new Army is beyond my comprehension.


theoriginaldimi

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:26:46 AM8/8/06
to

Herbert Cannon schreef:

> >
> > Boxers have huge gloves, which makes it a lot easier to cover up your
> > face.
>
> Are you talking about 16 oz training gloves or 8 oz ring gloves?

Both. Even 8oz gloves make your fists twice as big (including a part of
your forearms). It makes a static defence in front of your face a lot
easier then when one is barehanded.

> And they don't have to worry about takedowns, kicks or knees,
> > which allows them to bob & weave.
>
> True.
>
> > With bare hands and the possibility for kicks, knees and takesdowns you
> > cannot just keep your clenched fists in front of your face and hope to
> > be allright.
>
> I notice in the UFC fights I watch the most often used attacks are with
> fists.

Yes, because UFC fighters take takedowns and kicks into account. That's
why people sometimes comment that "UFC standup fighting is sloppy". It
looks sloppy because it doesn't look exactly like boxing. The boxing
stance (including hans in front of the face) had to be modified to work
in MMA.

But off course MMA'ers keept there hands a lot higher then the hip
(which I think is a smart thing - I'm not a big believer in the karate
approach of punches chambered at the hips).

> > And additionally many karatekas still believe that one punch will kill
> > the opponent (or at least render them incapable of attacking) so there
> > is no need for them to cover up once they have struck the opponent.
>
> Well one punch can pretty well stun an opponent -sez I as one who has been
> stunned and there are KOs. even with boxing gloves.

Yes, it can. But what is the chance that one punch will stun you?
Personally I would not take the risk to assume that the other guys is a
weakling and idiot. I'd always expect him to at least try and hit me
back, even when I hit him first.

Dimitri

rchrdk...@yahoo.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 4:15:45 AM8/8/06
to

Sam the Bam wrote:
> rchrdk...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,
>
> Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
> outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?

Many times. Ever heard of an "ambush"?

theoriginaldimi

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 4:41:04 AM8/8/06
to

Sam the Bam schreef:

Yes, I personally was on the receiving end of a flying kick (seriously)
to the eyebrow when I was a teenager. It came out of the blue, and
totally unexpected as I didn't know anyone was after me until the split
second I saw the combat boot closing in on my face. (Afterwards I
discovered that the othe guy mistook me for someone else)

Not that any martial art in the world (except the art of wearing a
closed motorcycle helmet perhaps) would have helped me in that
situation off course...

Dimitri

Rich

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 5:21:50 AM8/8/06
to

Sam the Bam schreef:

Yep; I know two people who've been minding their business and the first
thing they knew was someone was hitting them; in the first case, it was
a football 'fan' who'd mistaken him for a rival supporter, in the
second it was just a random attack as far as my mate knew.

It's not the most common self-defence situation, mind you, and besides
paying attention to your surroundings there's not much you can do about
it.

Cheers
Rich

suds mcduff

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 8:11:43 AM8/8/06
to

> >
> > TopGigilo,
> > Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?
>
> You are in the Army?? What fucking Army are you in if you don't know REMF is
> Rear Echelon Mother Fucker.

----He might be a boot, or doesn't recognize 30 yr old military slang.
Nobody used "SNAFU" when I was in.

Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 12:30:25 PM8/8/06
to

"suds mcduff" <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155039103....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

So what do Grunts call REMFs today? Don't tell me Grunts and REMFs all get
together and sing camp fire songs. I know the Army as I knew it still exists
as some level. Two 500 pound bombs were used for recon by fire when they
pacified Al-Zarqawi, smells like victory.


Shuurai

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 12:57:46 PM8/8/06
to

> >> Nothing. You'll notice also that many karate blocks are blocks to just
> >> such punches. So in essence what you are learning is blocks to punches that
> >> only other karateka will be throwing. You can get mighty good at it, too, but
> >> you'll still be learning something with almost zero application outside
> >> karate.
> >
> > Actually you're wrong.
>
> You think so? I've been watching karateka for decades and nothing I've seen
> has ever changed my opinion...this incident merely confirmed it.

Well, yeah I do think so :b

What this incident confirms is that young kids who study at McDojos and
who get taught that kata - in and of itself - will prepare them for
fighting tend to get hurt if they actually end up fighting. The fact
that this kid said, in so many words, that his kata would simply fall
into place and work confirms that he is part of that group.

> > What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
> > strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
> > can actually work pretty well.
>
> Obviously in this case, they didn't work.

Did he use the technique correctly?

> >> I had a young kid work for me a couple of years ago; he was a mad keen
> >> karateka.
> >
> > And how do you define a 'mad keen' karateka?
>
> Trains several times per week at least. Beyond that I'd just be guessing.

Doing something wrong several times a week doesn't make it work any
better. If your school is teaching you to do forms and just assume
that knowing those forms is all you need, then guess what - you'll be
good at forms. Beyond that... good luck.

> > What style did he study?
> > How did they train?
>
> I'll agree that there are a handful of karate styles that are somewhat
> effective, but those are only so because their training is more alive and
> their techniques less hopeless.
> Kyokushin is one, but that wasn't his style, unfortunately for him.

Again, it sounds a lot like the kid does forms and blindly hopes
they'll work.

> >> He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
> >> what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life scenarion,
> >> as he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it would
> >> all come together' if he had to use it.
> >
> > Which pretty much answers my "how did they train" question.
>
> Yeah, pretty much....

Say you took a kid the same age, size, and demeanor and taught him the
movements of judo several times a week... no contact, no partner
training whatsoever, not even so much as demonstrating how real people
have used it in real situations - just have him do the movements by
himself - how good do you suppose he'd do in a fight?

It's not "karate" that failed this kid, it's the fact that he was being
taught to dance by someone who was calling it karate.

> >> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma
> >> training,
> >> the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response? Learn
> >> more kata. <sigh>
> >
> > So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
> > adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!
>
> Tell me about it....

Invite him to train with your group for a while and show him why he's
wrong.

suds mcduff

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 1:04:05 PM8/8/06
to

Topo Gigio wrote:
> "suds mcduff" <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1155039103....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> >
> >> > TopGigilo,
> >> > Whats REMF mean? Something like RTFM?
> >>
> >> You are in the Army?? What fucking Army are you in if you don't know REMF
> >> is
> >> Rear Echelon Mother Fucker.
> >
> > ----He might be a boot, or doesn't recognize 30 yr old military slang.
> > Nobody used "SNAFU" when I was in.
>
> So what do Grunts call REMFs today? Don't tell me Grunts and REMFs all get
> together and sing camp fire songs.

-------Maybe they do in the Army. I was in the Corps.

ragtag99

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 1:11:15 PM8/8/06
to

There is a tirade of correct actions in war, civilians on the
battlefield and plain out honor that errupted through my mind to be
posted here, but then I said wait... This is an old timer stuck in his
old ways of might-makes-right-giant-erection nonsense, god bless
america and anti what-works (aka 'leg humping') mists of time
forgotten.
He posts angry messages everyday on an obscure usenet newsgroup on how
right he is and how everything sucks and that IS the extent of his
influence. Thus, I have no need to tirade and now concider this
subtopic to be blaise and worth no more attention. Thanks for the input
though :)

Sam the Bam

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 2:59:12 PM8/8/06
to
Chas wrote:
> >> If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,
> > Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
> > outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?
>
> Yeah- a number of times, matter of fact.
> I've had guys that I had a prior beef with attack me when they
> saw me; a few crazy guys; attempted muggings that started
> with a sunday punch from surprise- stuff like that.

OK, but in all the cases, there were some warning
signals, your antenna should have been tingling,
right? I mean, someone had a prior grievance, there
was some posturing or dirty look, whatever...

What I'm talking about, is the supposition of the
'scenario' schools, where you are on your way
to meet someone for lunch, minding your own
business, and some stranger tackles you. I've
never heard of that.


Sam

Sam the Bam

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:03:57 PM8/8/06
to
Rich wrote:
> > > If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,
> >
> > Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
> > outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?
>
> Yep; in the first case, it was

> a football 'fan' who'd mistaken him for a rival supporter, in the
> second it was just a random attack as far as my mate knew.

How did this random attack play itself out?

In all the bare knuckle pugging I have ever seen,
it was always by mutual consent. Even when
someone got sucker punched, it wasn't a 'random
attack', but an enemy with a score to settle, where
the victim was sleepwalking.

Sam

ordo...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:09:48 PM8/8/06
to

Topo Gigio wrote:

> That shows you have the understand of a turnip. Marching gets civilians used

> to instant blind obeisance to orders . Instant blind obeisance to orders it
> the corner stone to battle. You cant bull shit because I don't speak form
> theory of conjecture.Thank you for showing you don't have a clue. Don't
> worry you fit right it with the 99 and 44/100% of the clueless bastards that
> post to rec.martial-arts. I get a laugh out of rec.martial-arts now that I
> know very few have a clue and most are wannabes that never will. I respect
> less then one half of one percent of the posters and you are not one of
> them.

I wouldnt go presenting yourself as smart talking about string theory.


ordo...@gmail.com

ordo...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:12:19 PM8/8/06
to

rchrdk...@yahoo.com wrote:

> If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street, are you going to
> have your hands up in a boxers' stance, or are you going to have them
> by your sides, closer to your hip?

He's going to have his hands full with cellphone, keys, groceries, ect
which is why he's being selected for an attack. Cause he's a mark.

ordo...@gmail.com

ordo...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:17:03 PM8/8/06
to

General Fear wrote:
> In boxing, the boxer keeps his hands up on either side of his face for
> protection. Punches are thrown from this position. One hand goes out,
> the other stays by the face for protection.
>
> Why does karate require that you put trhow a punch from the hip? What
> is gained by this?

The point of pulling the fists back is to open the chest. Doing so
during stance changes makes it harder to use the arms for balance. Its
not for punching. Punches done from the hip are just a training
exercise. The japanese simply copyed basic shaolin from the chinese.
Some teachers try and read into rediculous theorys as to why something
is the way it is. Its for qi, its for jing. It trains you to monkey
elbow a guy that puts you in a bear hug from behind, ect. If you start
taking things out of MA that are not combat releveant, your left with
punches and kicks. Knee's and headbutts. The simple answer is its not
martialially oriented. Its just a myth that shaolin monks are/were
"fighting" monks. Thats nonsense. And everyone knows it.

ordo...@gmail.com

ordo...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:38:56 PM8/8/06
to

Topo Gigio wrote:

> It is an exercise done in horse stance. The stance strength the legs and the
> punches are middle punch, high punched, high block, inside block, outside
> block and neck chop. It has to do with keeping ones mind working will going
> into oxygen debt. There are many more moves that don't translate to
> fighting. They require a step forward into long stance with a turn. It is
> simpler to marching in the Army It does not translate to fighting, it does
> make one instantly and blindly obey orders.
>
> The problem is you are clueless about traditional martial art and love to
> roll with sweaty men pertaining to be a bad ass. You will last a few years
> then become old and fat.

If you watch marching exercises in asia you'll see the stances in
martial arts. I was watching stock footage (n. korea?) and they march
shoulder-to-shoulder. Some people ask why they do this and not march
in lines like everyone else. It has to do with the stalinist influence
(dont ask) in how the guys in the towers watch over ALL of the marching
groups. You'll see all the stances of "shaolin". Horse, cat, ect. If
one guy slips, its obvious. The patterns they form when doing this are
much more striking than line marching.

ordo...@gmail.com

ordo...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:46:44 PM8/8/06
to

Topo Gigio wrote:

> pseudo bad ass's understanding. In ten years you are a crippled old man
> sitting on the couch. In TMA I am still hip punching from the horse stance.
> This is like trying to explain the string theory to apes.

If you explain string theory by using a visual and you tie that visual
in with music and the premise is "music is math". Then i'd put the ape
over the egghead who think's this latest bit of trend science is
nothing more than a clever way of justifying stupid visuals with
mathematical computations. Music is NOT math. Math is NOT music.
Music isnt done in isolation. You cant have a guy on his own making a
theory and saying "this is rhythm and harmony". No its one guy
marching to the beat of an invisible drummer. Thats not music.

ordo...@gmail.com

Philippe

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 3:52:54 PM8/8/06
to
see, *this* is why TKD is so vital to SD.. You just can't carry
groceries with your feet..

;)
P.

--
Unless otherwise indicated, anything I write is either garnered from
experience or pulled out of my ass, depending on situational needs..

Chas

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 4:29:55 PM8/8/06
to
"Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote
>> Yeah- a number of times, matter of fact.
>> I've had guys that I had a prior beef with attack me when they
>> saw me; a few crazy guys; attempted muggings that started
>> with a sunday punch from surprise- stuff like that.
> OK, but in all the cases, there were some warning
> signals, your antenna should have been tingling,
> right? I mean, someone had a prior grievance, there
> was some posturing or dirty look, whatever...

Sometimes, sometimes not.
I had a lot of fights in clubs, set parties, event parties and stuff like
that (as a bouncer)- I generally didn't remember them, and they always
remembered me.
I've had them circle to my back and gang me- lotsa trouble when I first
squared up after my elder son was born.
Sometimes they want to talk- I've had black racists, crazy people, would-be
robbers, all that. When they finally get going, they're three steps behind.

> What I'm talking about, is the supposition of the
> 'scenario' schools, where you are on your way
> to meet someone for lunch, minding your own
> business, and some stranger tackles you. I've
> never heard of that.

In Denver, it's common for such things to happen to people getting out of
the LoDo bars at 2AM. There were even some guys videoing themselves doing
it- the video made the news, I remember; and the perps went to jail, but
they were only ones amongst many. No further agenda; just a sunday-punch and
beat-down; usually blacks on a white guy/couple.

Chas

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 4:42:37 PM8/8/06
to
"Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote
> In all the bare knuckle pugging I have ever seen,
> it was always by mutual consent. Even when
> someone got sucker punched, it wasn't a 'random
> attack', but an enemy with a score to settle, where
> the victim was sleepwalking.

That's 'cock of the walk' stuff, mostly amongst white people.
Indians will come at you instantly, and you maybe don't know why- they're
notional. Mexicans will jump you in a heartbeat- no warning, no words, bring
their cousins. Cowboys don't fuck around- if you have words, they get right
to it; sheepherders are crazy- and tough; fucking hardrock miners- beef
luggers- truck lumpers......
Toughest fights I ever saw were in jail- no quarter; all hands. If there's
any possibility you'll end up there, or deal with someone who has, learn to
fight seriously.

Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 6:37:22 PM8/8/06
to

"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155057075.5...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> There is a tirade of correct actions in war, civilians on the
> battlefield and plain out honor that errupted through my mind to be
> posted here, but then I said wait... This is an old timer stuck in his
> old ways of might-makes-right-giant-erection nonsense, god bless
> america

We have an anniversary coming up August 9 VJ Day. We should all raise a
glass and toast Truman for not being a pussy and saving hundreds of
thousands of American lives.

The death toll from two bombings around 214,000 people in both cities, most
of the casualties were civilians.

I you don't have the stomach for war don't start one.


Topo Gigio

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Aug 8, 2006, 6:59:49 PM8/8/06
to

<ordo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155066404....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Topo Gigio wrote:
>
>> pseudo bad ass's understanding. In ten years you are a crippled old man
>> sitting on the couch. In TMA I am still hip punching from the horse
>> stance.
>> This is like trying to explain the string theory to apes.
>
> If you explain string theory by using a visual and you tie that visual
> in with music and the premise is "music is math".

Music, math, what are you talking about? OIC you ass/u/me.
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php


ragtag99

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 8:25:16 PM8/8/06
to

HAHAAHA I mistook, you have no basis in real life at all, and your
influence is nil anywhere including an obscure usenet newsgroup. You
are lost, lost in time, lost in life, lost in the ability to make
logical thoughts. I can only laugh that i wasted so much time bantering
with you as if you were a viable source of debate.

My last post stands more affirmed then before. So sit there do horse
stances, quote web pages and pride yourself on intelligence and whine
over your keyboard cursing everyone for not living up to your obsolete
views of the world.

You are obsolete and may your last days end peacefully in bed holding
your erection as you remember back to the days when 'men where men'.

Otherwise this was an interesting thread on punching theory, sorry to
everyone to have taken part in diverting from it.

GreendistantNOSPAMstar

unread,
Aug 8, 2006, 9:20:09 PM8/8/06
to

"Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155056266.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>
>> >> Nothing. You'll notice also that many karate blocks are blocks to just
>> >> such punches. So in essence what you are learning is blocks to punches
>> >> that
>> >> only other karateka will be throwing. You can get mighty good at it,
>> >> too, but
>> >> you'll still be learning something with almost zero application
>> >> outside
>> >> karate.
>> >
>> > Actually you're wrong.
>>
>> You think so? I've been watching karateka for decades and nothing I've
>> seen
>> has ever changed my opinion...this incident merely confirmed it.
>
> Well, yeah I do think so :b

Fair enough.

> What this incident confirms is that young kids who study at McDojos and
> who get taught that kata - in and of itself - will prepare them for
> fighting tend to get hurt if they actually end up fighting. The fact
> that this kid said, in so many words, that his kata would simply fall
> into place and work confirms that he is part of that group.

Would this group form the majority of karateka? My guess is yes.....

>
>> > What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
>> > strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
>> > can actually work pretty well.
>>
>> Obviously in this case, they didn't work.
>
> Did he use the technique correctly?

How does one define 'correctly'. If we mean 'and it worked' then I suppose
not. My point is that many/most of these techniques simply don't work, even
if used according to the instructions on the box they came in.

>
>> >> I had a young kid work for me a couple of years ago; he was a mad keen
>> >> karateka.
>> >
>> > And how do you define a 'mad keen' karateka?
>>
>> Trains several times per week at least. Beyond that I'd just be guessing.
>
> Doing something wrong several times a week doesn't make it work any
> better.

Slam dunk!

If your school is teaching you to do forms and just assume
> that knowing those forms is all you need, then guess what - you'll be
> good at forms. Beyond that... good luck.

So these forms must be used in what manner? Against resisting opponents? Of
course, but how often does one see this?

>> > What style did he study?
>> > How did they train?
>>
>> I'll agree that there are a handful of karate styles that are somewhat
>> effective, but those are only so because their training is more alive and
>> their techniques less hopeless.
>> Kyokushin is one, but that wasn't his style, unfortunately for him.
>
> Again, it sounds a lot like the kid does forms and blindly hopes
> they'll work.

So shame on his instructors for giving him a false sense of security.

>> >> He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
>> >> what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life
>> >> scenarion,
>> >> as he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it
>> >> would
>> >> all come together' if he had to use it.
>> >
>> > Which pretty much answers my "how did they train" question.
>>
>> Yeah, pretty much....
>
> Say you took a kid the same age, size, and demeanor and taught him the
> movements of judo several times a week... no contact, no partner
> training whatsoever, not even so much as demonstrating how real people
> have used it in real situations - just have him do the movements by
> himself - how good do you suppose he'd do in a fight?

He'd fail miserably...but the problem with that scenario is judo is not (and
perhaps cannot) be learned effectively by executing forms solo. How can you
teach and learn judo solo? You can't, any more than you can teach Bjj, sambo
or wrestling solo.

>
> It's not "karate" that failed this kid, it's the fact that he was being
> taught to dance by someone who was calling it karate.

Depends on what type of dancing it is. You can't learn to waltz, tango,
foxtrot etc solo.

>> >> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma
>> >> training,
>> >> the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response?
>> >> Learn
>> >> more kata. <sigh>
>> >
>> > So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
>> > adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!
>>
>> Tell me about it....
>
> Invite him to train with your group for a while and show him why he's
> wrong.

Oh, I did try, but he was stuck in 'karate rules' mindset. I did do a little
'challenge' on him one time, just for fun. After being taken down and pimped
several times all he could say was "Yeah, but this wouldn't happen in real
life". At that point I just gave up and wished him well.

GDS

buck

unread,
Aug 9, 2006, 12:10:26 AM8/9/06
to
nothing......


"General Fear" <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154832364....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


>
>
> In boxing, the boxer keeps his hands up on either side of his face for
> protection. Punches are thrown from this position. One hand goes out,
> the other stays by the face for protection.
>
> Why does karate require that you put trhow a punch from the hip? What
> is gained by this?
>

> ..
>


Shuurai

unread,
Aug 9, 2006, 12:51:20 AM8/9/06
to

> > What this incident confirms is that young kids who study at McDojos and
> > who get taught that kata - in and of itself - will prepare them for
> > fighting tend to get hurt if they actually end up fighting. The fact
> > that this kid said, in so many words, that his kata would simply fall
> > into place and work confirms that he is part of that group.
>
> Would this group form the majority of karateka? My guess is yes.....

I agree. I've been saying so for a long time now.

> >> > What you're seeing as 'blocks' are typically
> >> > strikes; the block is done with the rear hand. Done correctly, they
> >> > can actually work pretty well.
> >>
> >> Obviously in this case, they didn't work.
> >
> > Did he use the technique correctly?
>
> How does one define 'correctly'. If we mean 'and it worked' then I suppose
> not. My point is that many/most of these techniques simply don't work, even
> if used according to the instructions on the box they came in.

Static blocking would be the prime example of a technique being used
incorrectly.

> > If your school is teaching you to do forms and just assume
> > that knowing those forms is all you need, then guess what - you'll be
> > good at forms. Beyond that... good luck.
>
> So these forms must be used in what manner? Against resisting opponents? Of
> course, but how often does one see this?

Well, not so much the form in it's entirety, but a good karate class
will take the forms apart and practice different parts against live,
resisting opponents. That is a huge part of what kata training should
be - and if you're not doing it you're not really doing kata. The form
by itself is just step one.

> >> > What style did he study?
> >> > How did they train?
> >>
> >> I'll agree that there are a handful of karate styles that are somewhat
> >> effective, but those are only so because their training is more alive and
> >> their techniques less hopeless.
> >> Kyokushin is one, but that wasn't his style, unfortunately for him.
> >
> > Again, it sounds a lot like the kid does forms and blindly hopes
> > they'll work.
>
> So shame on his instructors for giving him a false sense of security.

Exactly.

> >> >> He'd often pull me aside to show me his latest kata. I'd ask him
> >> >> what would happen if he tried to use his kata in a real-life
> >> >> scenarion,
> >> >> as he never trained against resisting opponents. He stated that 'it
> >> >> would
> >> >> all come together' if he had to use it.
> >> >
> >> > Which pretty much answers my "how did they train" question.
> >>
> >> Yeah, pretty much....
> >
> > Say you took a kid the same age, size, and demeanor and taught him the
> > movements of judo several times a week... no contact, no partner
> > training whatsoever, not even so much as demonstrating how real people
> > have used it in real situations - just have him do the movements by
> > himself - how good do you suppose he'd do in a fight?
>
> He'd fail miserably...but the problem with that scenario is judo is not (and
> perhaps cannot) be learned effectively by executing forms solo. How can you
> teach and learn judo solo? You can't, any more than you can teach Bjj, sambo
> or wrestling solo.

You can't learn karate effectively by practicing forms solo either ;)

You can practice by doing forms solo and refine what you've learned,
and use the forms as a learning aid - but if it's all you're doing then
you're not doing karate. You're doing a small part of karate at best.


> > It's not "karate" that failed this kid, it's the fact that he was being
> > taught to dance by someone who was calling it karate.
>
> Depends on what type of dancing it is. You can't learn to waltz, tango,
> foxtrot etc solo.

You can but it looks silly.

> >> >> A few weeks later he got beat up in a car-park by a guy with no ma
> >> >> training,
> >> >> the guy was apparently 20lbs lighter than him, too. His response?
> >> >> Learn
> >> >> more kata. <sigh>
> >> >
> >> > So a young kid who trains at a McDojo and thinks that kata alone is
> >> > adequate for fighting got beat up... gee, whata shocker!
> >>
> >> Tell me about it....
> >
> > Invite him to train with your group for a while and show him why he's
> > wrong.
>
> Oh, I did try, but he was stuck in 'karate rules' mindset. I did do a little
> 'challenge' on him one time, just for fun. After being taken down and pimped
> several times all he could say was "Yeah, but this wouldn't happen in real
> life". At that point I just gave up and wished him well.

Hopefully he never has to find out how wrong he is. *shrug*

Topo Gigio

unread,
Aug 9, 2006, 1:06:10 AM8/9/06
to

"ragtag99" <garbag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155083116....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

> Otherwise this was an interesting thread on punching theory, sorry to
> everyone to have taken part in diverting from it.

Interesting, theory in rec.martial-arts?? No fucking way. Diverting in
rec.martial-arts fucking A. Do you really think I give a flying fuck what
anyone says in rec.martial-arts? Do you think I give a flying fuck what a
REMF says? Ask me if I give a fuck. Do you give a fuck? FUCK NO. The only
thing lower then a REMF is a Hal. REMF/Hal/rec.martial-arts, perfect
together.


Rich

unread,
Aug 9, 2006, 4:57:34 AM8/9/06
to

Sam the Bam schreef:

> Rich wrote:
> > > > If a guy attacks you out of the blue on the street,
> > >
> > > Has this ever happened, in the history of the cosmos,
> > > outside the fevered imaginations of so-called 'martial artists'?
> >
> > Yep; in the first case, it was
> > a football 'fan' who'd mistaken him for a rival supporter, in the
> > second it was just a random attack as far as my mate knew.
>
> How did this random attack play itself out?

I wasn't there, but from what my friend said he grabbed the guy, hit
him a couple of times and pushed him against a wall, then the bloke
looked at him and ran off. Freaked him out, of course.

> In all the bare knuckle pugging I have ever seen,
> it was always by mutual consent. Even when
> someone got sucker punched, it wasn't a 'random
> attack', but an enemy with a score to settle, where
> the victim was sleepwalking.

The majority of cases, I agree it is; even the soccer fights are mostly
arranged beforehand between 'firms'. Fisticuffs is pretty much male
dominance fighting, and there's no point doing that if your opponent
doesn't know you're making a challenge.

But if you're ever over in the UK, go out in Newcastle on a Saturday
night. It's... special. :) And you get to see plenty of fights, and
some unprovoked.

Cheers
Rich