Kun Tao Silat and Historical Revisionism
gu...@odyssee.net
I practice Willem de Thouars' Kun Tao Silat. The Kun Tao is quite
different than the Silat. The forms, names and motions differ. The Kun
Tao we do is a group of systems, and the Silat is another group of
systems. These systems within are also distinct. Each has it's own
names and forms. There are roughly a hundred forms all together. The
first use of the term Kun Tao Silat that I personally witnessed was in
the mid to late 70's this was what Uncle called his system then.
Because of the variety of systems within his experience and his high
level of skill in several of these, he wanted to honor all of his
teachers by combining the use of these different meaning words.
Besides, all of us beginners were getting confused. At the time Uncle
had four regular students. These are Phillip Sailas, George Morin,
Steve Gartin and myself, Randall Goodwin, in order of seniority ( I
think?!.)
He later called his system Kun Lun Pai, which is a group of formsets
in one of the Kuntao systems. Naturally none of his students approach
his level, we only aspire to.
Uncle has told me that he first used the name Kuntao Silat in 1965 or
so. I believe him. Before that, there was no conjunction of these
words in use. The Kuntao is Chinese and the Silat is Indonesian.
Victor de Thouars, a lifelong Serak Silat practitioner and master,
Bapak of Pukulan Tongkat, has often argued against any touching of
these different cultures in the martial arts. And truly most of the
touching was in combat. Even that influenced the Kuntao because the
close knife work of Silat made many of the longer moves and
techniques very dangerous. The Kuntao forms shortened. Systems
condensed into a more immediate and primitive expression. They also
combined. These were days of innovation and tradition combining to
produce an art intended for survival in a wartime environment.
Willem de Thouars is of the belief that he is the originator of the
word conjunction Kun Tao Silat (Kuntao Silat) and I believe that he
is. He was put in a Japanese concentration camp as a child of five,
during WWII. When he was released three years later he was
reincarcerated in the Indonesian camps for the Dutch Indos, then I
believe there was a relocation camp in Singapore. He credits the
Chinese with helping him to survive with food in these camps. He
learned the Chinese Kun Tao because he was a half-breed (a "Heinze 57"
as his daughter says).
Later, as a minority in Holland his struggles were not over. He
reflects on the perversity of mankind to inflict suffering on those
who are different, as we all finally are. Finally in the United States
he brought Kun Tao, and with his brothers he brought Silat. He settled
in Colorado, where I was born. I met him about 19 or 20 years ago.
Now several people are using the name Kuntao and trying to rewrite
it's historical origins and meaning. It's conjuction with Silat has
been placed and dated to validate their "lineages". They call Kuntao
Silat the art of the Phillipines and say it is Indonesian Silat.
Well the Silat is much easier to learn, there are relatively many
Silat practitioners and Guro Danny Inosanto has introduced many terms
and systems to the public in seminars, and Herman Suwanda and Eddie
Jaffri have promoted the Silat. There are students of Willem Reeders,
and descendants of the Willy Wetzel group. I believe Willem Reeders
did Kuntao too. I have an article in Dutch with photos of him from the
fifties. He was a friend of Uncle. Then there is Otto van der Gruen,
he has descendants in Argentina in Ilmua Shantung Kuntao.
The Serak and Bhukti Negara have become well known through tapes and
seminars. But I see people saying they do these systems and they have
only seen tapes and done seminars. I studied with Pendekar Paul de
Thouars for seven years and became a Guru Muda in Serak. Yet now
people claim these systems when they haven't met Paul or Bill or
Victor, when they don't know a qualified instructor, and have little
in the way of a clue as to what's what and who's who.
For people claiming the Sulu area of the Phillipines as a source of
this word, I would like to know their sources. I would like some dates
and names. I do not mean for the independant use of these words, I
mean for the conjuction of these words.
Among people whose information is false we have those who are mistaken
and those who are liars. To mistakenly have a belief is ok it the
sources are respectable. But to lie for profit and pride is
reprehensible. Unfortunately, due the nature of scholarly research
this is difficult to establish absolutely. I recognize that I am not
able to verify all of these claims. But, I can verify that there is a
lot of B.S. flying around.
So rather than repeating as true something which is in question, look
to the source of the information. I can document with photos of a
tournament where I wore a shirt with Kuntao Silat on it, a 1970's
origin at latest. I challenge anyone to provide earlier tangible
evidence of this name. Also because I believe my teacher, Uncle Bill,
i.e., Willem de Thouars; I must assume the use predates my
documentation. The word to the best of our knowledge came into use by
Uncle in 1965. If anyone has a magazine article using this name/word
please let me know it's publication, date and title, and send me a
copy if possible.
Thank You!
Guru Randall Goodwin
Kun Lun Pai Kuntao Silat de Thouars
gu...@odyssee.net
Willem de Thouars is of the belief that he is the originator of the
word conjunction Kun Tao Silat (Kuntao Silat) and I believe that he
is. He was put in a Japanese concentration camp as a child of five,
during WWII. When he was released three years later he was
reincarcerated in the Indonesian camps for the Dutch Indos, then I
believe there was a relocation camp in Singapore. He credits the
Chinese with helping him to survive with food in these camps. He
learned the Chinese Kun Tao because he was a half-breed (a "Heinze 57"
as his daughter says).
Uncle has told me that he first used the name Kuntao Silat in 1965 or
so. I believe him. Before that, there was no conjunction of these
words in use. The Kuntao is Chinese and the Silat is Indonesian.
I practice Willem de Thouars' Kun Tao Silat. The Kun Tao is quite
different than the Silat. The forms, names and motions differ. The Kun
Tao we do is a group of systems, and the Silat is another group of
systems. These systems within are also distinct. Each has it's own
names and forms. There are roughly a hundred forms all together. The
first use of the term Kun Tao Silat that I personally witnessed was in
the mid to late 70's this was what Uncle called his system then.
Because of the variety of systems within his experience and his high
level of skill in several of these, he wanted to honor all of his
teachers by combining the use of these different meaning words.
Victor de Thouars, a lifelong Serak Silat practitioner and master,
Bapak of Pukulan Tongkat, has often argued against any previous
touching of these different cultures in the martial arts. And truly
most of the touching was in combat.
For people claiming the Sulu area of the Phillipines as a source of
this word, I would like to know their sources. I would like some dates
and names. I do not mean for the independant use of these words, I
mean for the conjuction of these words.
-----------------------------------
Chas Clements wrote:
>
> Why don't they call it Yang TaiChi or Kyokushinkai Karate, Kempo
> or JeetKuneDo? As long as they are going to choose someone
> elses' name, pick a well known one. The Filipinos', part of
> greater Malaysia, utilize the same generic name for Chinese arts
> (kuntao,kuntau,kuntaw, etc.) they do not utilize the name in
> conjunction with the word, Silat. They are mutually exclusive in
> the cultures.
> Generally, the Dutch-Indonesian(s) were the only people who had
> access to both the arts and Uncle Willem de Thouars the only man
> who combined them. Even the lineages of Guru Willem Reeders, Guru
> Willy Wetzel and the rest of the DeThouars don't use the words in
> combination.
> As the art takes its' place as the most devastating martial
> system to come public in the last ten years, people have usurped
> the name, the ranks, the discriptive words and phrases. You must
> see and feel the art to know the difference! They should do what
> they learned and honor their teachers, not steal from better men
> than themselves.
> Persons should not infringe upon our purvue.
> Chas Clements for the KunTao Silat Association, International.
>
> --
> Chas Clements |"It's fighting,
> 1741 Dallas Street |not folkdancing!"
> Aurora CO 80010-2018 |Internet: Compuserve
> Phone (303)364-0403 Fax: 303-739-9824
BOB TORRES wrote:
>Unfortunately Chas this is not correct information. In the Philippines
>(Sulu araea) the art of the Tausug people is called Kun Tao Silat. It
>can also be referred to as Bersilat. It is in Indonesia where these
>terms are not used. This is basic information and can be found and
>verified very easily. Remember that in Indonesia, Chinese was illegal
>and therefore forbidden to speak, write, or have a Chinese name. Much
>less a Chinese art, as Kun Tao. This is why many Chinese Kun Tao
>masters started to call their art Silat. This can all be verified
>through some simple research.
> Bob Torres
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob,
When did this come to be ??? I would Love to find out about this
research. Tell me when and where this started? Who started that? If it
is so basic then show us how easy it is to find and verify. Give us
verifiable source.
To mistakenly have a belief is ok if the sources are respectable.
Unfortunately, due the nature of scholarly research this is difficult
to establish absolutely. I recognize that I am not able to verify all
of these claims. But, I can verify that there is a lot of B.S. flying
around.
So rather than repeating as true something which is in question, look
to the source of the information. I can document with photos of a
tournament where I wore a shirt with Kuntao Silat on it, a 1970's
origin at latest. I challenge anyone to provide earlier tangible
evidence of this name. I believe my teacher, Bapak Uncle Bill de
Thouars, i.e., Willem de Thouars, the documented originator of this
usage. To the best of our knowledge Kuntao Silat (Kun Tao Silat) came
into use by Uncle in 1965. If anyone has a magazine article using this
name/word that can be placed withing ten years of this date or before
Ray Terry
> Now several people are using the name Kuntao and trying to rewrite
> it's historical origins and meaning. It's conjuction with Silat has
> been placed and dated to validate their "lineages". They call Kuntao
> Silat the art of the Phillipines and say it is Indonesian Silat.
Contact Cecil Quirino. Cecil is perhaps the foremost authority on weaponry
from the Sulu area. He is also son of the famous author and historian Carlos
Quirino. Cecil can be reached in Pinole, California.
Cecil is not a martial artist and so has no agenda in this area. His research
has shown that KunTao Silat is the martial art of the Sulu area, and that
it is the term used thru history. To be more precise, his research shows that
KunTao Silat (not Kuntaw Silat) is -one- of the terms used for their local
martial art.
When I pointed this out to Chas C., he agreed (as I recall) that it was
accurate. Chas is well acquainted with Cecil and his knowledge in this area.
Uncle seems to have started using a name that was already in use and probably
w/o his knowledge as few are familiar with the history of the Sulu area. No
problem with that. The only problem is if one continues to claim that they
-invented- the name.
Ray
Ray Terry
> Uncle seems to have started using a name that was already in use and probably
> w/o his knowledge as few are familiar with the history of the Sulu area. No
> problem with that. The only problem is if one continues to claim that they
> -invented- the name.
Allow me to follow up with the clarificaton offered by Chas C. KunTao Silat
is a generic term in use in the Sulu area prior to Uncle's use of the term.
Uncle's art is "KunTao Silat de Thouars" which is no doubt very different
from the KunTao Silat of the Sulu area. From what I've heard of Uncle over
the years, I suspect that his art of KTS de Thouars is superior to generic KTS.
Ray
Majapahit
>
> gu...@odyssee.net wrote:
>
> > Now several people are using the name Kuntao and trying to rewrite
> > it's historical origins and meaning. It's conjuction with Silat has
> > been placed and dated to validate their "lineages". They call Kuntao
> > Silat the art of the Phillipines and say it is Indonesian Silat.
>
> from the Sulu area. He is also son of the famous author and historian Carlos
> Quirino. Cecil can be reached in Pinole, California.
>
> Cecil is not a martial artist and so has no agenda in this area. His research
> has shown that KunTao Silat is the martial art of the Sulu area, and that
> it is the term used thru history. To be more precise, his research shows that
> KunTao Silat (not Kuntaw Silat) is -one- of the terms used for their local
> martial art.
>
> When I pointed this out to Chas C., he agreed (as I recall) that it was
> accurate. Chas is well acquainted with Cecil and his knowledge in this area.
>
> w/o his knowledge as few are familiar with the history of the Sulu area. No
> problem with that. The only problem is if one continues to claim that they
> -invented- the name.
>
Ray, I would like to personally thank you for posting this thread. I have spoken with Willem de
Thouars about this many a time and he was in complete agreement to it. The Tausugs have been
using this term for centuries. There are some old magazines that do speak of the people who
brought Silat and Kun Tao to the Philippines. Perhaps those who are into scholarly research can
enlighten us. It is truly a pleasure to see a martial artist educated in the various areas of his
martial arts and not believing old wives' tales.
Hormat,
Bob Torres
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
"Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
Proverbs 27:17
Dakin Burdick
did see an article on Kuntao in Black Belt in the early 70s (I
think), which described it as the Hokkien dialect term for
Quanfa (aka. kempo, kwonbop, ch'uan fa, etc.) or "fist way".
The article was about Kuntao in Malaysia, where Chinese martial arts
were illegal because of a Chinese insurgency group. The Chinese
origins of the art became obscured as a result.
Dakin Burdick
Ray Terry
> Nice post! No, I have not seen Kuntao-Silat before the 1980s. I
> did see an article on Kuntao in Black Belt in the early 70s (I
Hi Dakin,
For those researching the martial arts of the Filipinos, the Sulu area is the
'best' place to do that. It has been impacted the least by the influence of
the West. However, relatively few have attempted to venture into this area
given the danger. Many native Filipinos I know, researchers, are now unwilling
to visit the Sulu area given the extreme danger. That is -probably- why
we know little about the martial art of the Sule area, KunTao Silat, the name
or the art.
Ray
Majapahit
Subject:
Re: Kun Tao Silat and Historical Revisionism
Date:
Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:03:17 -0500
From:
Majapahit <mat...@nyiq.net>
To:
Ray Terry <rte...@cup.hp.com>
References:
1 , 2 , 3
Ray,
You are totally correct, in your statement. My knowlege of this art
and its people comes from my teachers. I would love to go into this
area one day but it is quite dangerous. I have a friend in the
Philippines from this area, who lives in Manila, and I spoke with him
and compared many things my, teachers have told me about this area, the
culture and the arts, even the sanskrit writtings. However, when I
expressed a desire to travel there. he told me it would be way to
dangerous for me. This is interesting, since not to long ago an American
who now has a tape on the market, told me how he spent three months
living with the Tausugs and three months living with the Minangkabau
tribe of Indonesai. Interesting that he lived with two of the most
fierce tribes in the world. To, the Tausugs if you are not Tausug you
are not it is very difficult to trust you.
Hormat,
Bob Torres
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
"Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17
"Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia
belajar dari sesamanya." Amsal 27:17
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
"Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17
"Sebagaimana baja mengasah baja, begitu pula manusia
belajar dari sesamanya." Amsal 27:17
Paolo Valladolid
: Dakin Burdick (burd...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: > Nice post! No, I have not seen Kuntao-Silat before the 1980s. I
: > did see an article on Kuntao in Black Belt in the early 70s (I
: Hi Dakin,
: For those researching the martial arts of the Filipinos, the Sulu area is the
: 'best' place to do that. It has been impacted the least by the influence of
: the West. However, relatively few have attempted to venture into this area
: given the danger. Many native Filipinos I know, researchers, are now unwilling
: to visit the Sulu area given the extreme danger. That is -probably- why
: we know little about the martial art of the Sule area, KunTao Silat, the name
: or the art.
: Ray
There's a pretty good book called _Pangalay_ by Ligaya A. (can't remember
the last name) that I borrowed from the director of a Philippine dance
troupe. While not about martial arts per se, it does discuss various
dance forms practiced in the region as well as certain "martial dances"
of the Tausug, Badjaw, and other peoples of the Sulus which have fighting
applications. I remember reading about a martial dance form called
"langka kuntaw" and "langka silat" (with photos) but not a
"langka kuntaw silat".
Paolo
Majapahit
A Filipino author for Black Belt magazine many years ago wrote of this
Silat you speak of, his name was Antonio V. Mendoza. This is what he
wrote and I quote: " I was shown Silat, at least the Silat the tourist
men wanted me to see. It was a dance which one of the journalist called
"quiant" but it is not real Silat, true Silat. Langka, the
modification, has as much terror connected to it as Red Riding Hood
against the Big Bad Wolf."
Majapahit
>
> The words "kuntao" and "silat" are used all over the SEAsian area by
> people of Malaysian ethnicity (Orang Melayu). The Sulu peoples are made
> up of Sundanese Sumatran tribes; sometimes Bugis, sometimes other
> Menangkebau, sometimes others. They share a common silat, a common
> pentjak, kuntao is known and etc. It is the same with Okinawate which
> contains much of the Menangkebau influence from immigrants to the
> Ryukus'.
> Uncle Bill de Thouars is the first, in this culture, to use the words in
> combination; presenting before assembled GrandMasters, as a new and
> unique art, submitting to examination, presenting his body and those of
> his students. He is HaiTeng Sifu Guru Besar Bapak Agung Raden Mas Tuan of
> KunTao Silat KunLunPai Ratu Duri de Thouars.
> He has an accredited group of students right here in the US. Not in
> Tausug Menangkebau Sulu Surabaya, FPO, Southern Phillipines, citing some
> sort of etymological similarity in homonymic sonance.
> Mr. Cecil Querino is a fine man of great integrity and knowlege in the
> areas of the cultures of the Southern Islands and I bow to him in his
> speciality. His instruction is sought in learning about those peoples and
> I appreciate him greatly. The same is said of Mr. Ray Terry, a gentleman
> and afficionado of things martial, publisher and practitioner.
> I'm not sure where Mr. Torres gets his information, his grammar, his
> spelling, his credentials, his friend, his name, etc. It was asked that
> he present them, as was it asked of Gitlin.
> I have a statement of the lineage of Willem de Thouars, written in 1978.
> I am happy to provide it to any interested inquiry by e-mail.
Chas,
Since you claim you do not know where I get my information from let me
help you.
Florendo Visitacion, 76 years of martial arts practice.
Willem de Thouars, over 50 years of Kun Tao and Silat practice.
Chris Sayoc, whos family has travelled all over the Philippines
reaserching these arts and have most of it on film.
Edgar Sulite who has also travelled through out the Philippines doing
extensive research into these arts.
Antonio Illustrisimo who learned his art from the Tausug people. He is
now approx. 96 years old.
Yoli Romo who does a Muslim Filipino art called Tat Kun Tao, he is from
the Souhtern Philippines.
Amante P. Marinas who has done extensive research into these arts and is
probaly the most published Filipino martial arts author.
Porferio Lanada who also has travelled throught out the Philippines
sinced the age of thirteen fighting and researching these arts.
Halford Jones a well known published author of Filipino martial arts
articles and a respected scholar in this area. He lived in the
Philippiners for over 15 years.
Pendekar Jim Ingram of the Mustika Kwitang who has over fifty years of
practice in the Indonesian arts.
Guru Yana Sastranegara of Perisai Diri Silat who has over twenty five
years of practice in his native Indonesia.
Guru Roedy Wiranataksumah of Pencak Silat Jati Wisesa who has over 20
years of practice in his native Indonesia. These are the people I have
associated with and there are others who have all had a part in my
growth as a martial artist. Salam and Hormat to all these gentlemen.
Bob Torres
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (A system recognized and certified by Guru
Besar Willem de Thouars)
gu...@odyssee.net
responses. I also add some commentary to my original post at the end.
gurug
gu...@odyssee.net wrote:
>Kun Tao Silat and Historical Revisionism
> I practice Willem de Thouars' Kun Tao Silat. The Kun Tao is quite
>different than the Silat. The forms, names and motions differ. The Kun
>Tao we do is a group of systems, and the Silat is another group of
>systems. These systems within are also distinct. Each has it's own
>names and forms. There are roughly a hundred forms all together. The
>first use of the term Kun Tao Silat that I personally witnessed was in
>the mid to late 70's this was what Uncle called his system then.
> Uncle has told me that he first used the name Kuntao Silat in 1965 or
>so. I believe him. Before that, there was no conjunction of these
>words in use. The Kuntao is Chinese and the Silat is Indonesian.
> Willem de Thouars is of the belief that he is the originator of the
>word conjunction Kun Tao Silat (Kuntao Silat) and I believe that he
>is.
> Now several people are using the name Kuntao and trying to rewrite
>it's historical origins and meaning. It's conjuction with Silat has
>been placed and dated to validate their "lineages". They call Kuntao
>Silat the art of the Phillipines and say it is Indonesian Silat.
> For people claiming the Sulu area of the Phillipines as a source of
>this word, I would like to know their sources. I would like some dates
>and names. I do not mean for the independant use of these words, I
>mean for the conjuction of these words.
--------------------Ray Terry kindly answers-------------------------
Contact Cecil Quirino. Cecil is perhaps the foremost authority on
weaponry from the Sulu area. He is also son of the famous author and
historian Carlos Quirino. Cecil can be reached in Pinole, California.
Cecil is not a martial artist and so has no agenda in this area. His
research has shown that KunTao Silat is the martial art of the Sulu
area, and that it is the term used thru history. To be more precise,
his research shows that KunTao Silat (not Kuntaw Silat) is -one- of
the terms used for their local martial art.
When I pointed this out to Chas C., he agreed (as I recall) that it
was accurate. Chas is well acquainted with Cecil and his knowledge in
this area.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> So rather than repeating as true something which is in question, look
>to the source of the information. I can document with photos of a
>tournament where I wore a shirt with Kuntao Silat on it, a 1970's
>origin at latest. I challenge anyone to provide earlier tangible
>evidence of this name. Also because I believe my teacher, Uncle Bill,
>i.e., Willem de Thouars; I must assume the use predates my
>documentation. The word to the best of our knowledge came into use by
>Uncle in 1965. If anyone has a magazine article using this name/word
>please let me know it's publication, date and title, and send me a
>copy if possible.
> Thank You!
>Guru Randall Goodwin
>Kun Lun Pai Kuntao Silat de Thouars
--------NEW--------NEW--------NEW--------NEW--------
So, I am in the process of tring to verify these claims. Thank you
Ray. But until the verification is made, I will maintain my question,
this is in the knowledge that I am posing a question and not yet ready
to provide an answer. For the other "it is well known" postings. Well,
I don't know it yet and my sources, to the present, have not confirmed
another origin. I have looked at books on Southeast Asian history and
of course Draeger's book, and have a magazine review scheduled. Noner
of these indicate anything to change my opinion yet. I will continue
to look in the areas indicated.
Now I must pose a continuation of my questions and comments. If the
use of the term in the Sule area is true. Who does these arts here and
now. Even granting the truth of this assertion for the sake of
argument, I must pose a few questions. Now some of the material
references posts that I have read and not yet responded to. So I hope
that the reader looks at all posts concerning Kuntao (Kun Tao) and
Silat.
1) If Kelly Worden does something he calls Kuntao and it was
recognized by Jesse Glover, so what? Is Jesse Glover a Kuntao
authority? Did he recognize the art, or that the art was Kuntao?
I know many people who are good at their arts, that does not mean
that they are doing Kuntao. Uncle has mentioned that he has seen
people mixing TKD, aikido and kung fu and calling it Kun Tao. Kun Tao
refers to a group of forms, training and combat methods, and
philosophy. So ask the Kuntaoer what are the forms, where did they
come from and how far back can they trace them.
2) Do those doing the "Kun Tao" trace their art to a Kuntaoer? If
not where is the Kuntao? Do those doing Kuntao Silat trace their art
to a Kuntao Silat practitioner? If so who?
3) If the art exists in the Phillipines, and it might, does
someone saying that they do it, make it true? The existence of the
terms elsewhere does not by itself validate any of the lineages people
claim.
4) With all of this talk of "lineage", is it not true that a
"lineage" is a line that goes through our teachers. It is by honoring
our teachers that we maintain this relation. So for all the Kuntao and
Silat people with a past: who, where, and how long? How far back
does this line go?
5) For those with ongoing relations with your teachers, I honor
you.
6) And how about those who can't even face the question of their
training? I asked Art Gitlan who his teachers were, and I was quite
polite. All I got was kicked out of Roberto Torres' censored majapahit
news group for that question! Mr. fistart Gitlan, who gave you the
rank of Josi? Where did you get your professorship?
"Any fool can ask an unanswerable question!" --- Benjamin Franklin
--
Gurug
a pal
in drome
!?
Guru Tua Randall Goodwin
email: gu...@odyssee.net
visit: http://www.odyssee.net/~gurug
(An Official Internet site for Kun Lun Pai, Kun Tao Silat de Thouars)
Chas Clements
Sundanese Sumatrans; Bugis, Menangkebau, during the Majapahit and other
migrations. The words are similar in sound, nothing more..they share a
certain etymological genesis.
Further, is Bob Torres of the dreaded Tausug people? Is this group,
incommunicado as they are, going to certify using their name? Is there
another Grandfather in the wings? Perhaps a secret teacher; met in the
dead of night, arriving in a rustle of silks and gone with the morning
light? Stay tuned kids.
HaiTeng Sifu Guru Besar presented before Grandmasters assembled; tendered
his lineage and his body, his students fought and won. He is
here...now...doing this...not somewhere else...doing something
else...right here.
If you keep renaming your art, Bob, you will perhaps generate something
that sounds like a lineage..Art will help. Best Wishes. Chas
Chas Clements
statement of his lineage. While his accent is delightful and some of his
grammatical constructions are interesting, I'm not sure I ever heard him
stutter when he said the name of his art.
What "hormat" might you have been discribing, Bob?
Chas Clements
Chas Clements
Bugis Menangkebau Orang Menang Sumatrans of the Kraton'aa? Is this
KunTao Silat of the same etymological genesis as the rest of Greater
Malaysia, Duhhh...
Did one of the Tausugs sign a piece of paper for you, on video, infront
of witnesses, in blood, with the secret symbol, conveying the lineage,
the coveted golden sash, fingerprinted, notarized, sealed in the Blood,
certified by the Jesuits, Mr. Professor?
Can we see it?
By the way, Randalls' statement of my credentials is essentially correct.
Best Wishes, backacha, Chas
Majapahit
Chas,
Are you jealous of my record keeping? I would be more than happy to
show you all of my paperwork and whatever I have on video. Seriously I
would. When are you coming to New York? I will play for your flight and
put you up, so it should really cost you nothting except some time.
As, for your credidentials I have a letter written here by Uncle that
tells me what your credentials are. It is very interesting.
Bob Torres,
E.Tsoi
>
>
>Yoli Romo who does a Muslim Filipino art called Tat Kun Tao, he is from
>the Souhtern Philippines.
>
Can you tell me more about Tat Kun Tao?
Ray Terry
> So, I am in the process of tring to verify these claims. Thank you
> Ray. But until the verification is made, I will maintain my question,
> this is in the knowledge that I am posing a question and not yet ready
Allow me to add that Cecil clearly pointed out that terms and terminology is
used rather loosely in 'close to the bone' cultures like that of the Sulu
area. By that I mean that those just trying to survive don't care much for
the precise name of the techniques that they use to live from one day to
the next. If you ask them if it is 'boxing' they may say, 'yes, it is boxing'.
Or if you ask them if the art is 'karate' they may say, 'yes, it is karate'.
They see boxing, karate, silat, kuntao, kuntao silat, etc as self defense.
What ever name you may choose to call it is fine by them.
Perhaps we should return to that simplicity. It is about fighting and staying
alive. The name doesn't matter a whole lot...
Ray
Majapahit
Randall, continue searching and you will find out the truth. As for me my Filipino Kun Tao
lineage, it is from Grandmaster Florendo Visitacion, from his brother Marcos Visitacion and from
their Uncle Cacal (Who is from the Sulu area). There are many areas where you can look at to
find out about Kun Tao Silat. Now, according to Grandmaster Visitacion the only time that it is
referred to as Kun Tao Silat is when the empty hand movments are being done with a blade. Either
through your Bunga or some other phase of practice. This art is really two arts, Kun Tao being
the empty hand phase and Silat being the blade phase. Now, Kun Tao is not considered Chinese in
the Sulu/Mindinao area it is considered a Royal Filipino Muslim art. In fact many of the
teachers do not say it means fist way but they have other meanings. Many of the Filipino Silat
teachers believe that the orignators of Silat where Tuba, Suhudah, and Wabulongs. These are also
the same people who are credited with bringing Kuntao to this area. In a book titled Philippines
Handbook by Peter Harper and Evelyn Peplow on page 90 they speak about the Filipino martial
arts. They go on to mention the following and I quote: "The Tausug of Sulu are legendary
fighters whose martial arts include Kuntao and Silat. Kuntao a weaponless martial art of Malay
origin (in Malay Kuntau means fist), requires years of rigid training and sometimes uses
extrasensory power to render the emenmy helpless. Silat involves bladed weapons. Both these
disciplines aim to confuse the opponent with complicated unpredictable footwork." Now this is
all very intersting since both Willem de Thouars and Jim Ingram have both told me when they first
started to learn Silat it was with a blade in thier hands. Now, Randall this is only scratching
the surface. If you truly do research instead of trying to tain my reputation you would find
what you are looking for. Use the right motives and you will find your answers. Unfortunatley a
lot of this stuff is not written out in books. I have travelled all over and have called many
people to find out the roots of my arts. This is how I became a student of Willem de Thouars.
Now I am not a Tausug, nor have I ever been there. But I have spoken with people from these
areas like master Yuli Romo, a Muslim Filipino from this area and Grandmaster Carlito Lanada of
Kun Taw whose father and grandfather came from this area. By the way Randall I did not remove
you from the list because of your questions to Professor Art Gitlin, but because I had requested
this rank nonsense be stopped and you continues. As list administrator I have to keep some kind
of order on the list. You want to do research into Kuntao Silat?
Bob Torres
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia
Majapahit
> > Ray. But until the verification is made, I will maintain my question,
> > this is in the knowledge that I am posing a question and not yet ready
>
> Allow me to add that Cecil clearly pointed out that terms and terminology is
> used rather loosely in 'close to the bone' cultures like that of the Sulu
> area. By that I mean that those just trying to survive don't care much for
> the precise name of the techniques that they use to live from one day to
> the next. If you ask them if it is 'boxing' they may say, 'yes, it is boxing'.
> Or if you ask them if the art is 'karate' they may say, 'yes, it is karate'.
> They see boxing, karate, silat, kuntao, kuntao silat, etc as self defense.
> What ever name you may choose to call it is fine by them.
>
> Perhaps we should return to that simplicity. It is about fighting and staying
> alive. The name doesn't matter a whole lot...
>
> Ray
Ray, this is so true. This is common through out the Philippines and Indonesia. For example in
the art of Visitacion it is I who gave names to the techniques, in order to make teaching easier.
In one of the movemnts of Willem de Thouars he say "Oh, we call this Aikido Bounus." what that
means I do not know, but he tells me his teachers did not teach Aikido. Prof. Vee will do a
circular side step and say, "see you do Bagua", you throw "oh Jujitsu". Thank you for posting
this Ray, I have tried to tell this to people for years and they think that I am out of my mind.
This is part of the reason that Prof. Vee's art became known as Jujitsu. The ohter reason was
when he prsented his art for recognition to the American Judo Jujitsu Federation through his
relationship with Prof. Wally Jay. When they looked at Visitacions art they did not know what to
call it and it became known as VeeJitsu (The Art of Vee). Thanks again Ray. Do you think it
would be possible for me to speak with Mr. Quirino?
Selamat,
gar...@rmi.net
How wonderful it is to see in a global sense! When I met Willem de Thouars in 1976 I had never
heard of KunTao Silat. Since I didn't have much to do in those days but train, and I had the good
fortune of having several martial brothers like Phillip Sailas, George Morin and Randall Goodwin to
train with, and having some background in martial arts, I progressed rapidly in Uncle's System.
In 1978 Uncle awarded me the rank of Guru Muda (Young Teacher) in the martial art named
KunTao Silat. So far as I know, the above mentioned Brothers and myself have the earliest
verifiable rank in KunTao Silat. If there were others, we would love to learn of them.
Uncle does make the distinction of KunTao Silat de Thouars on his later certificates to distinguish
from several "jonny-come-latelys" who are teaching a Kun tao Silat that doesn't bear any
resemblance to Uncle's KunTao Silat. Would love to tell you more about Uncle's unique system
of many systems, but time is short today.
Have a most enjoyable day. I'll be in touch.
B C N U
sg
gar...@rmi.net
I noticed in a post by Randall Goodwim that he had lost some video tapes of Serak to
Bob Torres. Interestingly, I also lost the personal gifts of the Bukti Negara series by
Paul de Thouars to Bob Torres. I've asked him several times to send them back, but
maybe he is studying to be a Gold Sash in the Pendekar's System as well. Some folks
are incredibly quick learners. At one time, Bob was claiming to learn an entire system
from Uncle Bill everytime he attended a class. I and all the Brothers I've been training
with have been trying to understand Uncle's System for 20 years.
Couldn't imagine trying to learn it by video.
gar...@rmi.net
martial system of Willem de Thouars, called KunTao Silat. I have known of this
art since the mid-seventies. No others appeared until recently.
Steve Gartin, Guru
KunTao Silat de Thouars
gar...@rmi.net
Chas Clements
amazement and awe to me for many years. I have seen men of great skill
and discipline, conversant with other arts, physically gifted, give YEARS
of their lives to beginning to understand a single aspect of a system.
There has never been rank (in a militaristic sense), this is the gift of
survival shared between neighbors and family members. Before, in the
good old days, we knew everyone presenting the art in far cities- now
they spring up like toadstools, God love'em.
After forty-two years in martial endeavor, I have only a minimal
understanding of the arts presented by the Brothers- and I have been
paying attention. Chas
Majapahit
You know I am really tired of you talk warriors. Shiapa Brani! First the tape Randall was
speaking of was a gift from Randall. He also gave a copy of the same tape to my one of my
students, who drove Randall to the airport, when Randall was coming to take classes from me. I
still have his registration form here. Second the three tapes you lent me to view I told you I
will return them to you when you give me my money for the seminar I did in Texas. I did not get
paid, according to the host Mr. Tom Johnston you were given the seminars fee for my self and
Bapak Willem de Thouars. we never saw money. Why don't you talk about that? WHy don't you
speak about how you made a racial comment to Prof. Art Gitlin about Jews and he stepped forward
to take your head off and you backed down. Then you cried to me all weekend "Oh, I should have
not back down" I told you well go kick his butt. Why don't you talk about how when that happend
and I had my blade drawn one of your mighty warriors jumped over a fence? Why, don't you speak
about how you filmed me all weekend at the family gathering? Why do't you talk about when I
first met Uncle and you discussed it in your newsletter at how you folks were amazed at how
similar our arts were? There is a picture of my self, Willem de Thouars, and Florendo M.
Visitacion. By the way I am not working towards a gold sash, Guru Besar Willem de Thouars
promoted Art Gitlin and my self to the highest rank possible (Gold Sash) in Kun Lun Pai on June
24th, 1994. Why don't you talk about how you called me not to long ago about three in the
morning drunk talking about how you were going to kill me. You also threatened to kill Prof. Art
Gitlin also simply because he is a Jew. The next day Ibu Joyce de Thouars called me to apologies
for you. I also spoke with Chas that same day, he also had a change of heart. I can proff these
conversations. I am waiting for one of you bad boys to come and get me. I will even pay for
your plane fare.
Bob Torres
--
Pencak Silat Perisai Setia (A system fully certified and recognized by Guru Besar Willem de
Thouars)
gar...@rmi.net
Agreed! I have watched many "Masters" stand in awe of Uncle over the years. It is always
a source of amazement and pride as I observe Uncle's talent in leading masters to greater
understanding of their own art. All of the de Thouars Brothers are awe-worthy.
Folks can come to Colorado to study with Uncle. Email for details.
Have a great day!
sg
Steve Gartin
Bob,
You have been a cop too long. Do you think the truth changes just
because you "file a complaint?" Even though you were an integral
part of the assault of last summer, you seem to have not read the
posts. All of the silly issues you just brought up were addressed
in greater detail last summer. Giltin's lies, your false claims,
all that stuff - want to dredge it up again?
My problems with Gitlin are personal - not because he is an inept
martial artist with an arrogant attitude - certainly not because he
is some part of a Jew. He is simply NOT a nice man - and I don't
care to have any association with him other than litigation in
Federal District Court. Want to join him Roberto?
For some reason you have missed the whole reason that you did not pass
your probationary period. You can't be challenging people and acting
arrogantly and be a student of Uncle's. I realize that the fact that
you are a cop has warped your thinking, but you are still a young man
with a lot of talent. Let's not fight Roberto.
God Bless you,
Steve Gartin, Guru Kun Lun Pai and
KunTao Silat de Thouars
clem...@rmi.net
social forebearance. He was a joke, a bad joke. No one cares about his race, religion, creed, colour or condition of previous
servidude. We are a diverse enough group to find that particulat allegation to be insupportable, expecially with Steve. Noone
jumped any walls away from Bob. People might have left the presence of people found offensive, Whatcha gonna do, in
public, slice him? Besides you minion of the law, you- what were you doing threatening someone with a knife (even if
they didn't notice?)
Noone stole any money or promised any money to either of them. They walked away with gifts of hormat and made none in
return, no class nickle snatchers. They were there to learn, to be introduced, to see real martial art; pearls before non-pearl
appreciators.
Bob, Uncle said that you shouldn't wear the sarong when teaching; jeans are more appropriate. Tie your golden sash on that.
Yeah, Right- go to the tender ministrations of a NY cop, on his ground, in the midst of his people. Since our second choice is
rolling on the ground, getting dirty and pulling hair. I think I'll stick with what I know- responding to attack from ambush by multiple
attackers- armed as they may come, Kitai Brani!
Chas