My dissection of marc macyoung's article on grappling
Posthumandude
the top and brackets on the bottom of each section I dissect.
Quote:
I have taken extreme flak from people about my views on grappling. Usually
these people are grappling proponents and believe that my answers to grappling
challenges are re too simplistic. >>>
That and they're just plain wrong.
Quote:
Well, as long as we are talking about simple, I have three basic standards:
1) If you end up on the ground against someone trying to seriously hurt you,
you ****ed up
2) Get up immediately
3) Submission fighting is to be used only on people who you want to control,
*not* hurt (e.g. a drunk friend) >>>
All wrong.
Quote:
Does this mean I am "against" grappling? Does it mean I don't think it's worth
learning? Does this mean I am inexperienced on the ground? >>>
Yes. Yes. Name the groundfighting school you learned at, please.
Quote:
No.
What it does mean, however, is that I have experience with issues that
grappling's "true believers" don't like to look at. Those experiences --
including watching a guy get "stomped" by upwards of twenty people while on the
ground (he spent six months in the hospital) -- makes me a little leery about
the universal applicability of groundfighting in so-called "real fights." >>>
Of course whatever it is "the animal" teaches will get you out of trouble when
20 guys want to stomp your head in.
Quote:
In fact, my experiences with being on the ground, tend to make me far, more of
a savage than most people feel comfortable with.>>>
Oooohhh, spoooky...
Quote:
But that isn't what this page is about, what it is about is should you cross
train? >>>
It's about me not wanting to lose students to MMA gyms.
Quote:
Why is grappling effective?
In his book The High Crusade Poul Anderson speculated on what would happen if
an advanced alien species attempted to conquer earth immediately after the
Crusades. The premise of the book was that these aliens had become extremely
adept at long-range, artillery-type warfare. They were shocked and confused
when the knights, instead of hanging back and attempting to do battle at a
distance, charged them and overwhelmed their positions. This simple, savage
strategy worked only because the aliens had lost the ability to effectively
fight at close quarters.>>>
He talks about "REAL STR33TFIGHTING" and his main arguement comes from a SCIFI
BOOK? OMG! WTF! BBQ!
Quote:
The success of grappling is due, in a large part, to the failure of
sports-based martial arts in the West. >>>
Actually it's due to the success of sports based martial arts in brazil.
Quote:
Ever since the introduction of gloved boxing, sport fighting has moved away
from the old "bare knuckle/London rules" form. That kind of pugilism was
designed to prevent clinches, headbutts, purring and a whole host of other
vicious in-close tricks associated with their version of grappling. >>>
So you're telling me bare knuckle boxers didn't grapple? Despite the fact that
we've seen plenty of pictures of it? Despite the existence of throws in BKB?
Despite the fact that groundfighting was illegal in many BKB matches? Have you
even read the history of wrestling and jiujitsu vs boxing challenge matches?
They go back to the turn of the century. Read those.
Quote:
The addition of padded gloves prevented many of these moves. And in time, sport
fighting became a "sniping" game. Opponents do not rush each other, but hang
back and exchanged blows and kicks from a distance. >>>
Except for the thais.
Quote:
And in doing so, they forgot that an opponent could charge in and take them
down.
Wrestling and grappling are very popular sporting events in South America,
however. "Brazilian" Jujitsu matches are events. These fighters hadn't
forgotten about charging in -- but it was still a sport. And that means it had
events, rules, weight division, safety equipment and organizations to give
ranks, belts and titles. >>>
Why yes. That's why they're called sport jiujitsu matches. However, a sport
jiujitsu competitor will still kick your ass, macyoung.
Quote:
In the first Ultimate Fighting Championship, Northern Hemisphere fighters were
just run over. Like the aliens in Anderson's book, they had forgotten that this
kind of fighting even existed, much less had the vaguest idea how to counter
it. >>>
There's that scifi metaphor again.
Quote:
People flocked to the Gracie Jujitsu Academy(s), other so-called "Brazilian"
Jujitsu schools and Val Tudo institutes to fill this hole in their training.
>>>
It's spelled ValE tudo. And thanks for the patronising quotes.
Quote:
You will notice, however, their reputation made, the Gracies withdrew from the
later UFC events. >>>
...To go fight in pride, a more prestigous event with more skilled opponents,
which they are still doing. They may not be undefeated but they are still a
huge force to be reckoned with in NHB.
Quote:
We can safely assume that by that time, Northern Hemisphere fighters had begun
to watch tapes, study their moves to discover ways to counter what had at first
flummoxed them. >>>>
Translation: You either learn how to grapple, or you get the hell out of the
cage.
Quote:
A point proven by the fact that later UFC champs had names like Shamrock and
Severson.>>>
First of all it's dan SEVERN. Not SEVERSON.
Second, they are both experienced grapplers.
Third, neither has ever beaten a gracie.
Quote:
In short, both the shock -- and the new -- had worn off and people once again
remembered that grappling was an issue to be dealt with. >>>
Damn straight. "Dealt with" as in "Learned how to do".
Quote:
This is not to disparage the Gracies, they are fine athletes and, in their
time, they ruled the ring. >>>
They still fight NHB. And I bet helio's great grandsons could kick your ass.
Quote:
But, as they introduced a new and evolutionary change to sports fighting, other
people have continued to evolve and introduce new developments -- including
ways to counter their changes. Thus is the cycle of the martial arts, they is
always changing and evolving to meet "new" influences. >>>
Translation: They learned how to grapple and groundfight.
Quote:
It is never static, it is always changing. And sometimes what is "new" is
something that is actually old, but left behind because people had found a
counter way back then. Often until the counter is "rediscovered" this will
create the latest fad in martial arts training. >>>
Translation: I know nothing about taoism, but let me try to sound like bruce
lee for a second here.
Quote:
Where doesn't submission fighting work?
While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground,
let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies
would lie down when they fought. >>>
This has got to be one of the most assinine statements ever published.
First of all a STR33TFIGHT is not a BATTLEFIELD. Soldiers SHOOT EACH OTHER.
They don't slug it out. THEY USE GUNS.
Second of all, any grunt or jarhead can tell you they spend plenty of time
crawling on their bellies.
Quote:
As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission
holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers. >>>
I take it back. THIS is the most assinine statement ever.
Quote:
Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally
effective as its proponents would claim.*
>>>
So, because it's easier to shoot the enemy than to figh him hand to hand that
makes grappling innefective? Wouldn't that apply to ALL unarmed martial arts
then? Including yours?
Quote:
To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand
where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).
1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other
>>>
All wrong.
Quote:
In otherwords, in a sporting event.
We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a so-called
'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation. In fact,
it could be termed "a friendly" fight. But you can't rely on an altercation
being of this self-limiting, non-destructive type. >>>
Jargon.
Quote:
So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will*
undermine submission fighting's effectiveness.
>>>
Yes, let's.
Quote:
Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to
face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom
will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token
effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous
mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a
bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest
with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second
attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of
spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.>>>
First of all macyoung makes the false assumption that "grappling" always means
"groundfighting".
Second of all, if onlookers or friends are going to join in, how is striking
any more usefull than grappling? You're gonna get stomped either way.
Third, he doesn't address the knee on stomach position, ideal for keeping a
lookout for friends while eliminating the fighting ability of one opponent
(which striking doesn't do!)
Fourth he doesn't address another advantage of grappling when you're being
jumped: Hostage taking.
Fifth he assumes that all grapplers will immediately go to the ground, rather
than asess the situation and determine wether it's appropriate
Sixth, He doesn't address the fact that a joint lock will put an opponent
IMMEDIATELY and permanently out of commision.
Seventh he doesn't address the issue of standing submissions.
Quote:
In a not so open space, e.g. furniture, curbs and other people - While the
floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects
such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you
fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you
there. >>>
Wrong. Furniture and closed in space is good for grappling. See we're not gonna
be the ones falling. With grappling you can drive your opponent INTO the
obstacles.
Striking, however (besides elbows and knees), is much harder to do in an
enclosed space.
Quote:
In a truly open space - Since "grappling" made it's name in the UFC, we need to
look at the circumstances of that event. You will see in many of the take downs
that the "victim" had run out of room when it came to backing up. He was
trapped against the "ropes." It's amazing how hard it is to catch someone, much
less take them down, who has lots of room to backpedal or dodge.
>>>
So which is it, macyoung? Closed space or open space? Is there furniture and
obstacles there or not?
Quote:
Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are
designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions
exist outside the dojo. >>>
We WANT asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc.
Because when we shoot a double leg it's our OPPONENT who has his face in it.
Quote:
A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a
shattered bones.
>>>
I'll leave this to the judoka.
Quote:
Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful --
often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but
that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not
let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. >>>
I don't care if he's a "cagey fighter". If he can't grapple, he goes down.
Quote:
Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While
you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor
of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you
run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be
knocked to the ground at the same speed as you. >>>
See my closed in space commentary.
Quote:
Without weapons - This is even more dangerous misconception than assuming that
you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it
is no longer fighting, it's combat. >>>
More sppppoooooookiiiineeeessss.
Quote:
The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent.
Under those circumstances, all your so-called "advantage" turns against you
because you cannot escape or avoid a weapon attack fast enough when you are on
the ground. >>>
Actually a high top mount, with your knees in his pits, is the best place to be
with an armed opponent (assuming you can't run). From there you have his arms
totally controlled, making it very hard for him to pull a weapon.
Secondly any weapon defense worth it's salt relies on some grappling, seeing as
you must CONTROL THE WEAPON HAND.
Thirdly for an example of grappling's effectiveness when both sticks and knives
are employed, one need only look to the dog brothers.
Quote:
Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no
holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. >>>
Wrong. For the first few UFCs there truly were no rules (although you could be
fined for one or two things), and there are still competitions that ban two,
one or no techniques. The later introduction of rules is the fault of ignorant
congressmen.
Quote:
Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough
them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so
savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore
unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many
grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!" >>>
We can. We can do them better than you. The man in the SUPERIOR position has
the option to bite or not.
Not the guy getting his face pounded from under knee on belly.
Quote:
It isn't a matter of doing it "too" it is a matter of who does it first -- as
many of these moves are fight stoppers. >>>
I have scads of video evidence of people trying to use such "deadly" moves
which proves you very wrong.
Quote:
Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as
"dominating" your opponent. >>>
Also "humiliating", "putting into a position of total helplessness" and
occasionally "making you my prison wife".
Quote:
It is used to subdue and force him to submit. In terms of "fighting" hat is a
social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to
prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill
him before he kills you. >>>
Macyoung seems entirely ignorant of the fact that a submission taken all the
way will break a bone or put you to sleep.
Quote:
There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally
differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or
prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil ******* coming at you
with intent to kill you. The same standards apply to the difference between
fighting and self-defense. >>>
What this has to do with grappling, i'm not sure
Quote:
If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it
isn't safe -- and why. >>>
Go fight a grappler, macyoung.
Return to top of page
Quote:
Don't fight his fight
Staying in a ground fight with a grappler is guaranteed to get your ass kicked.
>>>
Finally, he gets SOMETHING right. But remove "ground".
Quote:
It is where his fighting style is designed to work best. He has the home field
advantage, and all the moves that will trap you. On top of that most
"grapplers" are in mighty fine physical condition. >>>
You know it.
Quote:
The longer you stay on the ground with a grappler, the more chances you give
him to use these tactical advantage against you.
This is where my first two rules regarding grappling come into effect.
If you couldn't stop or avoid the rush, you weren't in control of your
long-range weapons. Lack of control can be directly traced to a lack of
understanding about those very tools. You didn't control the range, nor did you
understand those things that could have saved you from being taken down
(structure and mobility). These elements while critical in a real fight, are
not needed or understood in sport fighting -- where a ref will separate you if
you clinch. >>>
Translation: I can suggest some vague "principles" but no actual counters to a
double leg, seeing as I don't know any.
Quote:
But those issues are a massive can of worms and is beyond the scope of this Web
site. What I can say is, most often, the error wasn't in what you did per se,
but rather in your training. If your instructor doesn't know it, there is no
way he could teach you. >>>
More specifically in your training under a charlatan like marc macyoung.
Quote:
What I can tell you, is that the second rule applies in spades. You need to get
out of the grappler's preferred range. Even if the person you are fighting is
not a grappler, the "get-up" rule still applies due to danger from his friends
and vicious on-lookers. >>>
So marc, tell us how to escape mount.
Quote:
To this end, I heartily recommend you inflict some kind of intense and savage
pain. While he is reeling from it, you use the opportunity to scramble back up
to your feet. That is going to be your only window of opportunity. >>>
And you do this from under mount...how? Magically grow arms that are six feet
long and can't be armbarred?
Again, every time we've seen a "deadly streetfighter" fight a grappler, we find
the tactics that macyoung suggests DO NOT WORK.
Quote:
This is significantly different than trying to fight your way out of the
situation. If you attempt to fight through his tactics, you will be defeated.
Remember, these are his strengths, contesting them is not going to work unless
you are a superior grappler. Your safest strategy is *not* to play his game.
Get back to where your strengths are. >>>
Like writing horrible essays on the internet.
<snipped section, where he points out that grappling is good for subduing
people without harming them>
Quote:
However, when you have several sociopathic gangbangers coming at you, a
knife-wielding mugger threatening your life or are in a large, unruly crowd,
you *don't* want to try to grapple. >>>
You want to try to *run*. Not use whatever it is macyoung teaches you.
Quote:
In fact, you don't even want to try to fight. Escape should be your number one
priority. Charging in and wrestling him to the ground, doesn't conform to the
definition of escape. >>>
Nor does slugging it out.
Return to top of page
Quote:
When not to use grappling
Basically don't use it in a "self-defense" situation.
You are not there to engage an opponent. You are not there to fight an
opponent. In a self-defense situation you are seeking to protect your life or
prevent "grievous bodily injury" to yourself. That is not time to be thinking
about fighting, you need to concern yourself more with getting the hell out of
there and to safety. Most legitimate self-defense situations are not single
adversary or without weapons. >>>
I think I can figure out how to be a complete wuss by myself, thanks.
Quote:
Even if it is a one-on-one situation, a basic problem arises if you are
attempting to subdue someone in a self-defense situation: After you have him in
a nice submission hold, how are you going to get to the phone to call the
police? >>>
Well first of all I don't screw around with 5-0.
But if I wanted to, I would get up, watching him clutch his shattered joint as
he screams in pain (HURF, SO MACHO). Then I would go make the call.
Quote:
This is just one of the problems that arises out of not knowing the difference
between self-defense and fighting, much less the difference between martial
arts and fighting.. >>>
This is also one of the problems with not knowing what the hell you're talking
about.
Quote:
And while we are on the subject, it's probably not the best idea to use it in a
fight either.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but there are serious legal consequences
about fighting. What's worse is, even if the other guy "started it ," if your
actions "go over the top" abpit what a "reasonable" person would consider
"self-defense" you are in deep trouble. While it may be acceptable to do a knee
mount and strike a downed opponent in the ring, sitting on someone's chest and
jack-hammering his head off off the concrete isn't going to pass for anybody's
definition of "self-defense." In many states, a choke hold is considered use of
lethal force.
>>>
So in essence you're saying "don't fight him, you might get in trouble".
Wouldn't this apply just as much to standup striking?
Quote:
You're going to be in some deep legal trouble if you use your hardcore,
kick-ass grappling techniques on someone and they suffer serious injury. Which
is really likely if you are sitting on his chest punching him. >>>
I'm confused. Didn't you say grappling isn't lethal at all?
Return to top of page
<snip macyoung covering his ass>
Lynn Seiser
IMHO, having been raised in Detroit, a tour in Nam, 35 years in martial arts,
read his books, seen his videos, and particpating on his mailing list, I
respect MacYoung's opinions. Agree with a lot of them too.
I don't have to dissert his or yours (given without a real name or e-mail) just
because I have a difference of opinion.
But, thanks for the food for thought. You obvious spent a great deal of your
training time thinking about what he said.
Until again,
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations.
We fall to the level of our training."
Train well. KWATZ!
Lynn Seiser, Ph.D., MFT
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD
www.AikiSolutions.com
Badger_South
>Everyone has a right to their opinion, both you and MacYoung.
>
>IMHO, having been raised in Detroit, a tour in Nam, 35 years in martial arts,
>read his books, seen his videos, and particpating on his mailing list, I
>respect MacYoung's opinions. Agree with a lot of them too.
>
>I don't have to dissert his or yours (given without a real name or e-mail) just
>because I have a difference of opinion.
>
>But, thanks for the food for thought. You obvious spent a great deal of your
>training time thinking about what he said.
Just remember, if you are not in the kinds of situations that Marc was in
on a regular basis, don't actively train the moves or defenses to make them
internalized, it's of minimal value to read about them. You may -think- you
have the knowledge but are unlikely to be able to apply all but the most
basic; i.e., little tips, such as palming your knife, or walking around
corners taking the wide route. In a surprise sitch, you will revert to your
most basic instinct, and if you've never been in such danger, it may be to
duck and cover! Over half of the weapons taken ashore on D-Day were not
fired! ;-)
Even if you go to seminars and train the moves it still will not be of
sufficient second-nature to use in a pinch.
You (the plural you) -must- train alive, functionalize and have the flow.
-B
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
(Posthumandude) wrote:
>Quote:
>A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a
>shattered bones.
>>>>
>
>I'll leave this to the judoka.
*shrug* A fall from a big throw on concrete is no joke, but I'd rather
take it after learning how to fall than not.
In any case, unless I'm going to be getting into a brawl with another
Judoka (something that has never happened to me), my suspicion is that
it's the other guy who has to worry about the fall.
Me being the throwing specialist, and all.
Ben Holmes
We've been through this before... people think that slapping actually *does*
prevent injury on a mat, but if it's concrete, suddenly that same slap is going
to do the opposite.
I really like Eric's point of view... it's not going to be the Judoka
slapping...
Grappler240
>slapping...
>
unless they're fighting a wrestler......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002
Fraser Johnston
"Eric D. Berge" <eric _ berge @ hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:lfjca0hqci832f2m3...@4ax.com...
I've slapped off on falls on concrete and I'd say it saved me from broken
bones. Your hand stings but thats about it.
Fraser
Bill
I have had more than one instant where good falling skills
saved myself,students and friends from possible injury.
A friend and student fell backwards as she was going into her attic
from the pull down ladder in her garage. She landed in the traditional
side break fall and walked away. About 8 feet backwards onto a
concrete slab.
Several forward falls and rolls have aided others. Falls and Rolls
are not a bad thing to know.
Perk
BillMahoney68
>
>Everyone has a right to their opinion, both you and MacYoung.
>
>IMHO, having been raised in Detroit, a tour in Nam, 35 years in martial arts,
>read his books, seen his videos, and particpating on his mailing list, I
>respect MacYoung's opinions. Agree with a lot of them too.
>
>I don't have to dissert his or yours (given without a real name or e-mail)
>just
>because I have a difference of opinion.
Why do you respect someone who is clearly an idiot?
Surely you could not dispute the stupidity of his asinine article on grappling?
Gi
Posthumandude
>Why do you respect someone who is clearly an idiot?
>
>Surely you could not dispute the stupidity of his asinine article on
>grappling?
There are people who will do that.
That's why I wrote that.
GreenDistantStar
"Bill" <perk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gokda0t4g2d2j6q36...@4ax.com...
I fell off a motorcycle when I was a kid and forward rolled to
safety.........rolled and landed upright in front of some guys about to tee
off on a golf course.
We were all stunned...it was like some crazy circus trick.
To this day, I dunno how I did it.
GDS
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> >Quote:
>> >A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result
>> >in a shattered bones.
>> >
>> >I'll leave this to the judoka.
>>
>> *shrug* A fall from a big throw on concrete is no joke, but I'd rather
>> take it after learning how to fall than not.
>>
>> In any case, unless I'm going to be getting into a brawl with another
>> Judoka (something that has never happened to me), my suspicion is that
>> it's the other guy who has to worry about the fall.
>
>bones. Your hand stings but thats about it.
I think that nearly everyone that's studied judo can talk about a time
when they fell and used judo to land safely. The first time for me was
when I was on my bike and another bike hit me. I went over the
handlebars, rolled and stood up. Surprised the hell out me! My hand
forearm did hurt (about 2-3min latter, slight sting) but I protected my
head and rolled with it absorbing the impact.
Read any judo forum and there are tons of other examples of this.
Once again the pads are there to protect your partner and for practice.
The assumation is that there will be NO pads in the real world, and that's
why you first learn how to fall/roll in judo, then learn how to throw.
Because you NEED TO KNOW how to fall.
Earl Camembert
wrote:
> Several forward falls and rolls have aided others. Falls and Rolls
>are not a bad thing to know.
>
Any one that Mountain Bikes in even a moderate gonzo way knows that a
tuck and role is mandatory when one go over the handle bars; rolling
if far superior to sliding.
kirks...@yourclothesoperamail.com
wrote:
>
>> Several forward falls and rolls have aided others. Falls and Rolls
>>are not a bad thing to know.
When I was in 11th grade, a had a "friend" who was a bit of a
dickhead. He tried to trip me as we were running the 100m for the
school carnival. Down I went, straight into a roll. Popped back, kept
running. Ended up in 3rd or 4th place, but still ahead of him.
*****************************************
Remove "your clothes" to email me
*****************************************
phauna
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:c861i...@drn.newsguy.com...
I'd have to say it's the rolling and tucked chin that's important, far more
so than the slapping hand. And you could just slap lighter or not at all.
The slap is at the end of the technique, so it's conceivable that you could
think about not doing it as you are finishing the roll and are about to
slap.
phauna
"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:c874dk$nfo$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
> In article <2gnu3eF...@uni-berlin.de>,
> The assumation
The assumption??
Fraser Johnston
"GreenDistantStar" <GreenDis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:y8Cpc.40939$TT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I fell off a motorcycle when I was a kid and forward rolled to
> safety.........rolled and landed upright in front of some guys about to
tee
> off on a golf course.
>
> We were all stunned...it was like some crazy circus trick.
>
> To this day, I dunno how I did it.
>
> GDS
More importantly does it explain your love of golf?
Fraser
Fraser Johnston
"Earl Camembert" <nos...@forme.org> wrote in message
news:1qbea0pbihtb1bba3...@4ax.com...
Expecially on gravel.
Fraser
GreenDistantStar
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:2gp57aF...@uni-berlin.de...
lol! No. At the time, I thought golf was for wusses. I know better now. But
that's a different circus trick!
And btw, how was the Randy C seminar? If I get any sleep tonight, I'll see
you on the mat in the morning and you can bust me up with some new stuff,
eh?
GDS
P&M
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>
>The assumption??
Right assumption, sorry. You have to understand that I'm a medical
student doing my surgery rotation, I got up Fri at 04:30 and went to sleep
Sat at 14:00. I'd been up for 30+hrs when I wrote that. I'm lucky I got
my name right :)
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
I've taken falls on concrete and asphalt (went over the handlebars of
my bike), and, for that matter, gravel (tripped over a tree root and
did a zempo kaiten; my gf spent ten minutes picking chunks of rock out
of my back and arms). Lots of people do this without serious injury.
I don't know anyone who has taken a hard throw like haraigoshi or
uchimata-makikomi onto a sidewalk; it's not an experiment that I
propose to try, but I suspect that this is qualitatively different
than saving your neck in an accident with a timely breakfall.
Mike Sigman
"Eric D. Berge" <eric _ berge @ hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
The problem with all these comments about "breakfalls on concrete" is that
some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some, including the
article, are talking about straight into the ground without rolling.
Mike
bob
you can do both, difference is breakfall verses roll, but channeling the
impact is the same goal. Half the time you do a breakfall in sparring or
otherwise, you use your hips to kinda roll or reposition to get to your
feet again anyway.
Earl Camembert
I spent six months picking gravel out of my body one year. the bike
got tangled in my legs and made it difficult to complete the tuck and
role.
Earl Camembert
Cousin) wrote:
I want you to do brain surgery on me.
Mike Sigman
"bob" <b...@nekry.net> wrote in message
news:c88laa$2fit$3...@news.f.de.plusline.net...
> >
> > The problem with all these comments about "breakfalls on concrete" is
that
> > some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some, including the
> > article, are talking about straight into the ground without rolling.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
> you can do both, difference is breakfall verses roll, but channeling the
> impact is the same goal. Half the time you do a breakfall in sparring or
> otherwise, you use your hips to kinda roll or reposition to get to your
> feet again anyway.
Yeah, but the discussion was about hurting your hand, etc. I can't imagine
anyone with even minimal skills hurting their hand on a rolling breakfall.
On a rolling breakfall I seldom even bother with hand or arm.
Mike
bob
true enough, once you have the basics down they just get in the way.
Fraser Johnston
It was awesome. Ending going 5 hours + each day. Missed out on seeing Soa
roll with Randy. : ( I'll give you a call later about it.
Fraser
ordosclan
> On 15 May 2004 04:18:52 GMT, posthu...@aol.comremove
> (Posthumandude) wrote:
>
> >Quote:
> >A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a
> >shattered bones.
> >>>>
> >
> >I'll leave this to the judoka.
>
> *shrug* A fall from a big throw on concrete is no joke, but I'd rather
> take it after learning how to fall than not.
I've fallen and hit the ground and other objects many times. Never a
broken bone. Or a bruise if I could remember. Twisted ankle is the
worst injury. And I walked on that for hours till I got home. Now,
if I image someone, say david letterman going through the same
situations I have. Different story.
> In any case, unless I'm going to be getting into a brawl with another
> Judoka (something that has never happened to me), my suspicion is that
> it's the other guy who has to worry about the fall.
>
> Me being the throwing specialist, and all.
I dont think its a valid point. Unless you have no skill at throwing
or being thrown. Or falling. MacYoung seems to write for people that
hang out in bars and cant figure out how to act with purpose and
direction in moving and orienting in the real world to avoid
situations like being pulled off a barstool. If you want a good
barstool pulling defense. Dont sit in them.
ordosclan
> I fell off a motorcycle when I was a kid and forward rolled to
> safety.........rolled and landed upright in front of some guys about to tee
> off on a golf course.
>
> We were all stunned...it was like some crazy circus trick.
>
> To this day, I dunno how I did it.
>
> GDS
I did about the same thing only I was flying for a bit and did not
have the benefit of sight. I was literally blindfolded. Its amazing.
You think your going in a straight line and BAM.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>>>The assumption??
>>
>> Right assumption, sorry. You have to understand that I'm a medical
>>student doing my surgery rotation, I got up Fri at 04:30 and went to sleep
>>Sat at 14:00. I'd been up for 30+hrs when I wrote that. I'm lucky I got
>>my name right :)
>
>I want you to do brain surgery on me.
OT rant can delte:
Don't even get me started on the medical training system. We are in
SERIOUS need of reform. The system just does not do certain things
'correctly' IMHO. Keeping people up for 30+ hrs MIGHT be about 'breaking
them down, then building them up.' But it's not. Why?! Because A) there
should be a plan in place to do so, and B) you actually get around to
building them up!
We've got students and residents reporting for shifts at 06:00 (which
means that if you want to eat/drive/etc you're up at 04:30 or so) and
basically awake and on duty until 12:00 the following day. You don't have
to be all that educated to conclude that if you are tired and hungry you
can not perform at your best. And when you job is to take care of the
sick/injuried you should be able to perform at your best (or at least a
close approximation ^_^).
To be fair surgery is the worst about this. There are some true
a&&holes here (one guy, that I'm forced to work with for 5 more wks).
Everyone knows it, but no one does anything about it. There are no real
checks in balances in place to dismiss people for stuff like this. In ANY
OTHER busniess these people would be fired. They can do the job, but
personality wise...
I really can not talk about everything that I've seen. But it just
makes me want to get involved in education/medial reform. I've spent 1wk
on this rotation so far and it's changed my entire outlook on medicine.
It's one thing to be a jerk but get teh job done, it's another if you're a
jerk and only so-so at work (that is they aren't going to kill anyone but
they are not the best; if you are the best you can get away with a lot.
If you're not at the top thou...).
I've serious come pretty close to physically striking this one guy.
He's done stuff that outside of the medical hierarchy I would have either
1) Ignored/walked away from, or 2) Hurt the guy. This eg I can talk
about. I was writing a note with your 'standard issue $0.25 papermate
black pen.' The pin was dying, so I made one of those circles on the
bottom of the page and kept writing. My superior walks over and says
"this pen is shit, it's slowing you down" grabs it out of my hand and
thorws it away then states "you need to get a new pin." Putting aside
that he just threw away my personal property (cost isn't the issue) no way
would someone get away with crap like that (and that's just a mild
example) in the 'real world'/workplace. But here it's not only tolerated
but even somewhat expected.
I find myself hoping that he'll actually physically assult me so I
can 'defend' myself and do something really quick; like ashi barai that
looks like an accident right.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> I've taken falls on concrete and asphalt (went over the handlebars of
>> my bike), and, for that matter, gravel (tripped over a tree root and
>> did a zempo kaiten; my gf spent ten minutes picking chunks of rock out
>> of my back and arms). Lots of people do this without serious injury.
>
>some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some, including the
>article, are talking about straight into the ground without rolling.
We've done both! And again who is most likely to take that fall? The
grappler or the untrained guy. Let's say it is the grappler. Who has
more experience with falls? Who has more experience being thrown and
having a guy land ontop of them? etc. etc.
Point is that the ground is the grapplers friend. And not all
grappling is rolling on the ground. The mats are sort of like boxing
gloves. Many people THINK they are there to protect the guy getting hit.
Not true, the gloves are there to protect the guy doing the hitting.
Without gloves boxers would break their knuckles/hands. Mats are the
same, the mats are there to allow you to learn how to fall in a safe
environment. Getting pile drived into the ground hurts, but it hurts a
lot more if you don't know how to land.
Further what in the world makes you think that a untrained guy is
going to take down a grappler, but some how a non-grappler will be able to
avoid it? That is if this 'punchy street thug' can trip/rush/takedown a
wrestler WTF is he going to do to a non-grappler?
It's sort of like multiples. Everyone says don't grapple run. No
s&it. The question is what happens when you can't run (or need to create
space/distance to run). Fact is with multiples grappling becomes MORE not
less likely. Because standard 2 on 1 is for A to grab you while B hits
you. Remember, grappling is not solely about rolling around on the
ground. And as always, this idea that 1 on 1 you lose, but give me 3-4
guys and I win is just not logical.
The idea that grapplers can only control and not hurt/kill is
laughable. First (as noted) getting slammed on the ground takes the fight
out of most people (again we ARE NOT saying that grapplers are immune to
this, just better trained to deal with it). And beleive me if dislocate
or break something that hurts a lot. Choking is also great. 6secs on
average to put a guy to sleep.
What if you're a small guy or women, that will NEVER delevop one
punch KO power? Grappling + weapon (knife or gun, whatever you can carry
your state) is going to be the only choice they've got (rememebr that
weapons were invented for the sole purpose of allowing the physically weak
to overcome the physically strong).
I know this is a long ramble (I'm pretty tired), but bottomline. The
ground is the grapplers friend. On top or on bottom, we don't care. We
train closing the distance and hurting people. Want to avoid grappling
keep running, we hate that. What to get serious f&cked up, rush us. Yes
please rush us! Cause we won't be expecting that :) It's like small
joint manipulation, s&it don't work. Had it done to me (broke fingers).
People talk about a lot of stuff without every having done it. Do you
really think that eye gouges and groin attacks are the sole domain of the
'reality self defense' guys. Grapplers/Boxers/MMA/etc. guys can do them
to and BETTER. Because we'll be in a superior position to actually use
it.
Semi funny story. This guy wanted to fight me in a 'truely no
rules' match. I think he was fronting because he said "we allow biting,
eye gouging, groin attacks, man you up for that' and I responded with 'I
can bite you, poke out your eyes or beat the crap out of your nuts. got it
lots go!' Idea that I would attack back just never seemed to enter his
head (to be fair I think he was fronting and had no real desire to fight).
Nothing you learn in the 'reality based systems' is copyrighted. The MMA
guys can do that to, but they also have much better training at how to
actually use these techniques.
Paul Erickson
>Everyone has a right to their opinion, both you and MacYoung.
>
>IMHO, having been raised in Detroit, a tour in Nam, 35 years in martial arts,
>read his books, seen his videos, and particpating on his mailing list, I
>respect MacYoung's opinions. Agree with a lot of them too.
Oh horse puckey. MacYoung makes a living off of selling techniques
and merchandise focused around teaching people supposedly about
fighting in the real world.
Thus it is not just opinion, but more or less theories that are
expected to be applied in the real world - but without any
substantiation.
I've seen plenty of martial "experts" with their loyal followings,
that even with a disclaimer and the added onus of being in front of
their own students, get worked over by a blue or purple belt.
If MacYoung were some knucklehead from the peanut gallery, fine.
However this is a guy that is an "expert" and is paid for the supposed
veracity of his theories on fighting. He does not have the benefit of
being allowed to have just an opinion - he is paid to distill reality
even from his own bullshit if needed.
As such the "Animal" has had ample opportunity, even right now, to
walk into the nearly dozen Gracie and Machado schools in his area,
sign a disclaimer, and make an even bigger name for himself. The Kung
Fu San Soo "expert" who made his living as a "CQB" instructor that got
completely worked over like a small child despite a blanket disclaimer
that allowed him to be as "deadly" as he wanted, by C-level MMA
fighter John Marsh AT LEAST had the balls to test out his theories AND
publicly post the results and what he learned. To that guy, I give
him credit as he has more balls than 99% of the non-MMA martial arts
community put together.. including MacYoung.
Dont expect MacYoung to ever attempt anything close to testing out his
rabidly uninformed theories at any Gracie school, and as such he will
remain more self-aggrandizing legend than anything else.
It doesnt matter if Marc eats broken glass and pisses fire, the man
writes a piece on grappling when it is glaringly obvious to all except
the uninformed who are sympathetic to his traditional "we dont need no
grappling" stance, that the man has neither trained nor gone up
against the very arts/style/techniques that he is caterwauling on
about.
And, sure enough, Marc's training background has zero true
groundfighting and grappling in it.....
Badger_South
wrote:
> Semi funny story. This guy wanted to fight me in a 'truely no
>rules' match. I think he was fronting because he said "we allow biting,
>eye gouging, groin attacks, man you up for that' and I responded with 'I
>can bite you, poke out your eyes or beat the crap out of your nuts. got it
>lots go!' Idea that I would attack back just never seemed to enter his
>head (to be fair I think he was fronting and had no real desire to fight).
>Nothing you learn in the 'reality based systems' is copyrighted. The MMA
>guys can do that to, but they also have much better training at how to
>actually use these techniques.
ROFLMAO!
BTW, give it up man. The 'anti-grapplers' will -never- get it. "I'm not
gonna go roll around on the ground". Yeah, right, until they're suddenly
and unexpectedly -on- the ground.
So did you ever fight this guy?
-B
Mike Sigman
> In article <BLCdncYLuKZ...@bresnan.com>,
> >> I've taken falls on concrete and asphalt (went over the handlebars of
> >> my bike), and, for that matter, gravel (tripped over a tree root and
> >> did a zempo kaiten; my gf spent ten minutes picking chunks of rock out
> >> of my back and arms). Lots of people do this without serious injury.
> >
> >The problem with all these comments about "breakfalls on concrete" is
that
> >some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some, including the
> >article, are talking about straight into the ground without rolling.
>
> We've done both! And again who is most likely to take that fall?
ANYTHING!!"]]
Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite a few people
going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on concrete, slapped the ground
hard everytime, and it's impossible to hurt my hand", slapping your hand and
arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original article, damage your hand.
Over the years I've known a lot of people who have gotten away with a
stinging hand, but I've also known too many who hurt their hand, to varying
degrees. As a med student, you should at least be aware of that
possibility.... it'll help when you go into residency and get assigned the
emergency room on raucous weekends.
Let's get a little more clinical with these comments, doc-to-be, and get
onto some other rotation that allows you to catch some sleep. :^)
Mike
T
> "'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
> news:c89pgj$vag$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>> In article <BLCdncYLuKZ...@bresnan.com>,
>>>> I've taken falls on concrete and asphalt (went over the handlebars
>>>> of my bike), and, for that matter, gravel (tripped over a tree
>>>> root and did a zempo kaiten; my gf spent ten minutes picking
>>>> chunks of rock out of my back and arms). Lots of people do this
>>>> without serious injury.
>>>
>>> The problem with all these comments about "breakfalls on concrete"
>>> is that some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some,
>>> including the article, are talking about straight into the ground
>>> without rolling.
>>
>> We've done both! And again who is most likely to take that fall?
> [[snip LONG rambling "grapplers are the greatest and can handle
> ANYTHING!!"]]
Here are some basic observations about bjj vs. Parker kenpo:
In kenpo class I didn't necessarily even break a sweat. In bjj my gi jacket is
wet by the end of class. [condition]
In kenpo we stayed on our feet in the free movement phase. In bjj class we
start on our knees and stay on the ground. [position]
In kenpo we rarely sparred. In bjj class we roll at least half an hour after
technical practice every class.
In kenpo sparring we played tag, in bjj we roll to the tap. [submission].
Going forward is faster than going backward or sideways, so if you want to
close the gap, you can.
Pulling guard is dead easy.
Trading punches with someone a hundred pounds heavier than me assures a quick
loss, but I can (maybe) tap him.
If you're in free movement phase... why not run? Preferably while screaming and
clearing leather.
Lynn Seiser
within its range and context (I have a lot of respect for grapplers on the
ground and many of them are the toughest people I have met on the mat, though
granted I am not a grappler), I find it interesting that the original post was
a major dissection/slam at Marc MacYoung's article and the only discussion is
whether you can get hurt by slapping-out on concrete.
Until again,
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations.
We fall to the level of our training."
Train well. KWATZ!
Lynn Seiser, Ph.D., MFT
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD
www.AikiSolutions.com
Badger North
Cousin) wrote:
> We've got students and residents reporting for shifts at 06:00 (which
>means that if you want to eat/drive/etc you're up at 04:30 or so) and
>basically awake and on duty until 12:00 the following day. You don't have
>to be all that educated to conclude that if you are tired and hungry you
>can not perform at your best. And when you job is to take care of the
>sick/injuried you should be able to perform at your best (or at least a
>close approximation ^_^).
I've always thought this was idiotic. Do I really want some guy who
hasn't slept for 24 hours to suture a cut, when he can barely see
straight?
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Badger_South
>IMHO, an observation qualified with the thought that every martial art is great
>within its range and context (I have a lot of respect for grapplers on the
>ground and many of them are the toughest people I have met on the mat, though
>granted I am not a grappler), I find it interesting that the original post was
>a major dissection/slam at Marc MacYoung's article and the only discussion is
>whether you can get hurt by slapping-out on concrete.
>Until again,
Correction. They -think- they are great within their range. In addition,
you use the range against them, especially if you can shoot and
clinchfight.
Without the grappling range, you have a huge hole right in the center of
your ranges...or at the end of the ranges, actually.
How many grapplers have you met on the mats and what was/were the
outcome(s)?
Just asking.
-B
Robert Low
Badger North <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've always thought this was idiotic. Do I really want some guy who
>hasn't slept for 24 hours to suture a cut, when he can barely see
>straight?
It isn't the suturing that worries me so much as the idea
that this sleep-deprived wreck is going to be diagnosing
people in need of rapid accurate treatment, or quite possibly
performing major surgery on them.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Mike Sigman
"Robert Low" <mtx...@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:c8ai0m$ocq$1...@sunbeam.coventry.ac.uk...
>
> Badger North <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I've always thought this was idiotic. Do I really want some guy who
> >hasn't slept for 24 hours to suture a cut, when he can barely see
> >straight?
>
> It isn't the suturing that worries me so much as the idea
> that this sleep-deprived wreck is going to be diagnosing
> people in need of rapid accurate treatment, or quite possibly
> performing major surgery on them.
It's a primitive system. However, recent rulings, lawsuits, etc., are
causing many medical programs to reduce the hours that interns, residents,
etc., work. You need to bear in mind that doctors tend to take call on a
rotating basis when they go into regular practice and the experience of
learning to work when you're tired, sleepy, etc., is a needed training
device.
FWIW
Mike
Katana
Breakfalls come in all forms. I've been in several bike wrecks where I
too launched over the handlebars. I simply rolled back to my feet and
got back on the bike with no damage. Then I've also fallen on icy
sidewalks where I did a hard back breakfall. Did it sting my hand?
Yes, but the training in the breakfall which teaches you to tuck your
chin so your head doesn't bounce like a basketball on concrete worked
out very well.
Despite all of MacYoung's straw man arguments he doesn't say a single
thing about how HE would do things differently. How would MacYoung go
to the ground if he didn't have a choice? How does he breakfall so it
feels like a big comfy pillow when going onto concrete? He has no
answer. So his constant ramblings about would, could, or should ring
absolutely hollow.
Katana
Breakfalls come in all forms. I've been in several bike wrecks where I
coldblood
"Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040515184325...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >I really like Eric's point of view... it's not going to be the Judoka
> >slapping...
> >
>
> unless they're fighting a wrestler......
>
even then they wont be slapping. i dont slap when i get double legged, do
you?
andrew
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
> "You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
> -Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002
>
Badger_South
Low) wrote:
>
>Badger North <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I've always thought this was idiotic. Do I really want some guy who
>>hasn't slept for 24 hours to suture a cut, when he can barely see
>>straight?
>
>It isn't the suturing that worries me so much as the idea
>that this sleep-deprived wreck is going to be diagnosing
>people in need of rapid accurate treatment, or quite possibly
>performing major surgery on them.
When you ask, it's b/c they've always done it that way. It's a type of
internal MD hazing they all go through.
Did I mention that most doctors are complete buttheads? Well, most
Orthopeds, are, and even my PCP doc doesn't listen to me when I tell him
what's going on. They're all into following the system, getting their
little prospective payments, which don't happen if they refer you.
Orthopods all want to cut into you so they can buy a big screen TV.
-B
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
news:vdrha0p9cbk2jv4p3...@4ax.com...
>
> Did I mention that most doctors are complete buttheads? Well, most
> Orthopeds, are, and even my PCP doc doesn't listen to me when I tell him
> what's going on. They're all into following the system, getting their
> little prospective payments, which don't happen if they refer you.
> Orthopods all want to cut into you so they can buy a big screen TV.
Not ALL of them. Some of them are very conservative and will try to exhaust
alternative healing methods before cutting. And guess what? A lot of
people will leave those orthopods and go to one that will quit
shilly-shallying around and cut them. You can't win.
Mike
Grappler240
>you?
to busy sprawling and trying to save myself the trouble.
-g
Badger_South
wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm being reactionary. You probably know my story, but I went
in for a problem with my hip, which turned out to be a pinched nerve in my
lower spine, and some piriformis syndrome, but because the x-ray showed
thinning in my hip cartilage, he diagnosed me as having arthritis (which I
don't have) and wanted to do a hip replacement. While it's true that
thinning cartilage suggests arthritis by definition, you must have two
xrays to compare, b/c it might be that thickness is just fine for that
individual.
Well as they don't tell you, a hip replacement is not guaranteed to solve
your problem, and in my case, since that was -not- the problem, guess what,
it was guaranteed -not- to solve it.
Since I'm in the medical field I happen to know that you can't diagnose
arthritis based on -one- xray. But he didn't know I knew that. When I
mentioned it he got snippy.
Plus he wanted to do a dye-injection MRI. I balked at this and he didn't
give me any options. I came to find out later that a non-dye injection MRI,
while not optimal in -some- cases, will tell you a -whole- lot.
The next guy I went to wouldn't even feel my lower back hip area, as though
it was beneath him to touch me. I said 'to me it feels like the left side
is slightly swollen or something. He said 'I reviewed your xrays and all we
can do is change your pain meds.' (!)
The last guy told me to drop trow, and then 'take your wallet out of your
pocket'. Came to find out he thought I was sitting on it. What? My 'wallet'
has a driver's license and one credit card and a library card. In addition
my pocket is high up on my hip and nowhere near to where I sit.
It took a sports med therapist to accurately diagnose my problem
(piriformis syndrome), but the doc didn't even want to hear an alternative
suggestion, even from his own therapist! When I tried to relate this he
started talking over top of me!
I asked my PCP to -please- send me to a deep massage therapist in town who
does chinese pressure therapy about 3 years ago and he will NOT do it. I
have no idea why, b/c this lady has solved a number of my friends' problems
and fixed them even when nothing else would work. I felt it was worth a
shot, especially given that all the other referrals were crap.
How can one diagnose arthritis needing hip-replacement in a person that
bikes 100 miles a week and does 20 rep squats with 225 lbs? It defies logic
until you realize they aren't even listening to you, because visions of new
cars and big screen tvs are dancing in their heads. ;-p
-B
Sucka
>Any one that Mountain Bikes in even a moderate gonzo way knows that a
>tuck and role is mandatory when one go over the handle bars; rolling
>if far superior to sliding.
hah. yehright. You don't have clipless pedals?
Rolling would be nice if you could do it.
Trav
Lynn Seiser
ranges...or at the end of the ranges, actually.
>
>How many grapplers have you met on the mats and what was/were the outcome(s)?
>
>Just asking.
Agreed, without some skill set at each range there is a huge hole in both
offense and defense. IMHO, many arts miss the need to train at all ranges, in
different scenarios, and with different arsenals of weapons
Must admit, I am an old man who doesn't go to the mat often, so I have no
numbers. But once on the mats, admittedly, it is their win. No problem.
Just don't underestimate a treacherous old man with a weapon. ;-)
Sucka
>> tuck and role is mandatory when one go over the handle bars; rolling
>> if far superior to sliding.
>>
>
>
>Fraser
Gravel slides real easy.
Trav
Sucka
>
>I spent six months picking gravel out of my body one year. the bike
>got tangled in my legs and made it difficult to complete the tuck and
>role.
I don't know how you *could* roll out of an endo crash.
The last endo I did, I brought the bike all the way around with me...I mean, my
feet are essentially bolted to it. If you don't have toe clips or clipless
pedals, you ain't really riding. Every endo I've had, I've brought the bike
around with me, except for one, IIRC. Only the really vicious crashes can
cause the bindings to release.
Trav
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>
went
> in for a problem with my hip, which turned out to be a pinched nerve in my
> lower spine, and some piriformis syndrome, but because the x-ray showed
> thinning in my hip cartilage, he diagnosed me as having arthritis (which I
> don't have) and wanted to do a hip replacement. While it's true that
> thinning cartilage suggests arthritis by definition, you must have two
> xrays to compare, b/c it might be that thickness is just fine for that
> individual.
Well, in some cases of deterioration, there's no question it's arthritis
even from one x-ray.
>
> How can one diagnose arthritis needing hip-replacement in a person that
> bikes 100 miles a week and does 20 rep squats with 225 lbs? It defies
logic
> until you realize they aren't even listening to you, because visions of
new
> cars and big screen tvs are dancing in their heads. ;-p
Each person is different. Some people are essentially asymptomatic right up
to the sudden onset of crippling bone-on-bone joint degeneration. The
biking 100 miles a week isn't that bad because the load-bearing on the hips
isn't all that bad (although why anyone would bike 100 miles when there's
good motorcycles to be ridden....), but I'd be leary of the extra load
bearing you're incurring with the squats. You may need to get smarter about
your routine. Remember, you're only young once, but you can be immature
forever.
Mike
Badger_South
wrote:
>> How can one diagnose arthritis needing hip-replacement in a person that
>> bikes 100 miles a week and does 20 rep squats with 225 lbs? It defies
>logic
>> until you realize they aren't even listening to you, because visions of
>new
>> cars and big screen tvs are dancing in their heads. ;-p
>
>
>Each person is different. Some people are essentially asymptomatic right up
>to the sudden onset of crippling bone-on-bone joint degeneration. The
>biking 100 miles a week isn't that bad because the load-bearing on the hips
>isn't all that bad (although why anyone would bike 100 miles when there's
>good motorcycles to be ridden....), but I'd be leary of the extra load
>bearing you're incurring with the squats. You may need to get smarter about
>your routine. Remember, you're only young once, but you can be immature
>forever.
This is true, concerning the sudden onset, but I'm doing what I can
including supplementation with G-C, and soforth. But would it make a
difference if I told you that the original xray was taken in 2000? Since
then the condition has gotten slightly better every year, to where I'm
doing pretty well now, rarely any pain?
In addition, I've been doing squats and leg extensions and leg presses with
no problem for many years, and certainly since 2000, and have no ill
effects during the weight training? All of this leads me to believe the
problem is not arthritis, but I could be wrong.
I may be stubborn, but I don't see how you get 'immature' out of that
unless it was just a chance for you to offer a boilerplate plattitude. ;-)
I do appreciate your comments though.
Best,
-B
>Mike
>
Grappler240
>even from one x-ray.
how do you know if you didn't know how much cartilage this person had before??
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>
> This is true, concerning the sudden onset, but I'm doing what I can
> including supplementation with G-C, and soforth. But would it make a
> difference if I told you that the original xray was taken in 2000? Since
> then the condition has gotten slightly better every year, to where I'm
> doing pretty well now, rarely any pain?
Maybe you're getting younger and you'll die as healthy as a 5-year-old.
>
> In addition, I've been doing squats and leg extensions and leg presses
with
> no problem for many years, and certainly since 2000, and have no ill
> effects during the weight training? All of this leads me to believe the
> problem is not arthritis, but I could be wrong.
The point being, why not back off a bit, just in case?
>
> I may be stubborn, but I don't see how you get 'immature' out of that
> unless it was just a chance for you to offer a boilerplate plattitude. ;-)
If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
Mike
Mike Sigman
"Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> >Well, in some cases of deterioration, there's no question it's arthritis
> >even from one x-ray.
>
> how do you know if you didn't know how much cartilage this person had
before??
In some cases (obviously not all), there are onset symptoms and x-rays that
show obvious deterioration of the joint. I.e., if somehow you're under the
impression that arthritis can't be diagnosed unless you have 2 x-rays taken
at different time periods, you're wrong. And as you get older things don't
get better with your joint problems, they always get worse. Despite any
lulls of feeling good. :^)
Remember that old Russian maxim: "Life is hard and then you die".
Mike
Badger_South
wrote:
>(although why anyone would bike 100 miles when there's
>good motorcycles to be ridden....),
Well, I can't jog, and swimming is problematic, so all that's left as far
as roadwork is biking. I've been slowly improving my biking since last
August and just totalled 400 miles in the last 4 weeks.
Believe me it takes determination and fortitude to be able to ride everyday
and to cover that many per month on an old beater MTN bike, weighing 45lbs!
The longest ride last week was 20 miles and when I weighed myself I was
4.5lbs lighter just due to that ride - that's more perspiration than
inspiration! <g>
I rode a motorcycle for many years, but that's just a bit too daredevil for
my ancient self. As you know, we used to call them 'donorcycles' over in
the liver transplant department! ;-)
(My brother and I are in training to ride the CBBT in October
(http://www.cbbt.com/cbbtevent.html), and we're gonna do a double (34
miles). He's got youth and body type on his side, but I've been training
longer. He's 155lbs and 48y.o. I plan to seriously smoke him in the last 10
miles, but he says no. I say nothing, but secretly smile, knowing I'm
putting in at least double the mileage he is, plus, I got the 'animal'
gene. He got the 'fussy' gene, although I'm wearing spandex and he's
wearing t-shirt and cutoffs.. ;-p)
-B
Badger_South
wrote:
>
>"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>news:g64ia054v57b3atqe...@4ax.com...
>> But would it make a
>> difference if I told you that the original xray was taken in 2000? Since
>> then the condition has gotten slightly better every year, to where I'm
>> doing pretty well now, rarely any pain?
>
>Maybe you're getting younger and you'll die as healthy as a 5-year-old.
That's my goal, except for the 'die' part. My wife says 'since you retired,
you look 10 years younger and you act like a ten year old'. I'm not sure
which of these comments are compliments. I think the ten year old comment
came after I asked her how to streak my hair blue. All the rad biker dudes
are doing it, I sez.
>>
>> In addition, I've been doing squats and leg extensions and leg presses
>> with no problem for many years, and certainly since 2000, and have no ill
>> effects during the weight training? All of this leads me to believe the
>> problem is not arthritis, but I could be wrong.
>
>The point being, why not back off a bit, just in case?
Uh, never retreat, never surrender? Besides, who would recover better from
emergency THR, a guy that can squat 300 and rides 100 miles a week, or
someone that lifts pink dumbells? The point being, the better shape you're
in physically, the better your recovery, if, in fact, we're talking hip
problems.
>> I may be stubborn, but I don't see how you get 'immature' out of that
>> unless it was just a chance for you to offer a boilerplate plattitude. ;-)
>
>If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
>
>Mike
Well, I'm in good company.
-B
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>
> (My brother and I are in training to ride the CBBT in October
> (http://www.cbbt.com/cbbtevent.html), and we're gonna do a double (34
> miles). He's got youth and body type on his side, but I've been training
> longer. He's 155lbs and 48y.o. I plan to seriously smoke him in the last
10
> miles, but he says no. I say nothing, but secretly smile, knowing I'm
> putting in at least double the mileage he is, plus, I got the 'animal'
> gene. He got the 'fussy' gene, although I'm wearing spandex and he's
> wearing t-shirt and cutoffs.. ;-p)
Luckily I was able to wear out my competition genes and get out of the
marathons and triathlons game. All that stuff does is sap your strength,
energy, and give you cramps in the sports bars, forcing you to drink more in
order to kill the pain. :^)
Mike
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>
> That's my goal, except for the 'die' part. My wife says 'since you
retired,
> you look 10 years younger and you act like a ten year old'. I'm not sure
> which of these comments are compliments. I think the ten year old comment
> came after I asked her how to streak my hair blue. All the rad biker dudes
> are doing it, I sez.
>
Hence my "you can be immature forever" comment. Ipso facto.
> >>
> >> In addition, I've been doing squats and leg extensions and leg presses
> >> with no problem for many years, and certainly since 2000, and have no
ill
> >> effects during the weight training? All of this leads me to believe the
> >> problem is not arthritis, but I could be wrong.
> >
> >The point being, why not back off a bit, just in case?
>
> Uh, never retreat, never surrender? Besides, who would recover better from
> emergency THR, a guy that can squat 300 and rides 100 miles a week, or
> someone that lifts pink dumbells? The point being, the better shape you're
> in physically, the better your recovery, if, in fact, we're talking hip
> problems.
Er, the guy who recovers best from THR is the guy who doesn't have to get
it. Besides, keeping the area tonified and healthy isn't that hard to do.
If it ever gets to a THR, email me privately and I'll tell you the secret
method of conditioning joints that doesn't involve wearing them out. :^)
>
> >> I may be stubborn, but I don't see how you get 'immature' out of that
> >> unless it was just a chance for you to offer a boilerplate plattitude.
;-)
> >
> >If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
> >
> >Mike
>
> Well, I'm in good company.
You know it. What do you plan on being when you grow up??? :^)
Mike
Badger_South
wrote:
>
>Luckily I was able to wear out my competition genes and get out of the
>marathons and triathlons game. All that stuff does is sap your strength,
>energy, and give you cramps in the sports bars, forcing you to drink more in
>order to kill the pain. :^)
>
>Mike
I have a hard time picturing you jogging, let alone swimming or biking. Are
you saying you -used- to do that? Come to think of it, I believe Carl told
me that you are a good runner, though, exhibiting your training in the
Steven Seagal style of sprinting. <eg>
At the one hour mark in jogging and the two hour mark in biking there's a
definite change in consciousness that makes it all worthwhile.
Plus in biking, you get to wear neat lycra and spandex garments, and dye
your hair nifty colors.
-B
Kirk Lawson
> I rode a motorcycle for many years, but that's just a bit too daredevil for
> my ancient self. As you know, we used to call them 'donorcycles' over in
> the liver transplant department! ;-)
It's a common MD name. I've heard all of my MD friends call it that.
Particularly the two that work e-rooms.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Mike Sigman
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
> On Mon, 17 May 2004 14:02:15 -0600, "Mike Sigman" <mikes...@bresnan.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Luckily I was able to wear out my competition genes and get out of the
> >marathons and triathlons game. All that stuff does is sap your strength,
> >energy, and give you cramps in the sports bars, forcing you to drink more
in
> >order to kill the pain. :^)
> >
> >Mike
>
> I have a hard time picturing you jogging, let alone swimming or biking.
Are
> you saying you -used- to do that? Come to think of it, I believe Carl told
> me that you are a good runner, though, exhibiting your training in the
> Steven Seagal style of sprinting. <eg>
I have a 4th degree black-belt in Track. Won my last fight by 2 blocks.
:^)
Nowadays, I don't do endurance sports since they take too much training
time. I whitewater kayak in the rapids and I spend a lot of time up in the
high mountains on my Observed Trials motorcycle leaping from boulder to
boulder. :^)
>
> At the one hour mark in jogging and the two hour mark in biking there's a
> definite change in consciousness that makes it all worthwhile.
>
> Plus in biking, you get to wear neat lycra and spandex garments, and dye
> your hair nifty colors.
Hmmmmm. I see. Sounds sort of like a lot of these Harley riders I see on
the road that appear to motorcycle mainly for the boutique aspects of it.
:^)
Mike
Badger_South
wrote:
>
>"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
>news:126ia0h391idjld5h...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 17 May 2004 13:41:18 -0600, "Mike Sigman" <mikes...@bresnan.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That's my goal, except for the 'die' part. My wife says 'since you
>retired,
>> you look 10 years younger and you act like a ten year old'. I'm not sure
>> which of these comments are compliments. I think the ten year old comment
>> came after I asked her how to streak my hair blue. All the rad biker dudes
>> are doing it, I sez.
>>
>
>Hence my "you can be immature forever" comment. Ipso facto.
Oh. OK, I thought you were giving 'immature' as a negative connotation. As
you know, being a fellow retiree, this -is- the time for blatant and
copious immaturity, Mr G-string and bunny slippers. ;-p
>> >> In addition, I've been doing squats and leg extensions and leg presses
>> >> with no problem for many years, and certainly since 2000, and have no
>> >> effects during the weight training? All of this leads me to believe the
>> >> problem is not arthritis, but I could be wrong.
>> >
>> >The point being, why not back off a bit, just in case?
>>
>> Uh, never retreat, never surrender? Besides, who would recover better from
>> emergency THR, a guy that can squat 300 and rides 100 miles a week, or
>> someone that lifts pink dumbells? The point being, the better shape you're
>> in physically, the better your recovery, if, in fact, we're talking hip
>> problems.
>
>Er, the guy who recovers best from THR is the guy who doesn't have to get
>it. Besides, keeping the area tonified and healthy isn't that hard to do.
>If it ever gets to a THR, email me privately and I'll tell you the secret
>method of conditioning joints that doesn't involve wearing them out. :^)
Yeah, yeah. If that's anything like your special method of keeping all your
hair, I'll pass. Making all that guacamole every night isn't any fun.
>> >> I may be stubborn, but I don't see how you get 'immature' out of that
>> >> unless it was just a chance for you to offer a boilerplate plattitude.
>;-)
>> >
>> >If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
>> >
>> >Mike
>>
>> Well, I'm in good company.
>
>You know it. What do you plan on being when you grow up??? :^)
I've been through the 'grown up' stage, and it did not live up to the
billing. Being able to drive, buy beer and watch porno? Hah. Now I have my
wife or daughter drive me everywhere, have no use for beer since oxygen
debt gives me all the high I need. Plus, I've completely forgotten what
porno is for.
(By the way did you catch last night's Jimmy Neutron episode where they go
to Eqypt? Wasn't that a riot!? Which one is your favorite?)
-B
>
>Mike
>
T
> If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
Oh, that's sig* material for sure. ;-)
If you post on RMA you are immature by definition. :^)
--Mike Sigman
T
*Sig, get it?
Paul Tanenbaum
> ... my suspicion is that
> it's the other guy who has to worry about the fall.
> Me being the throwing specialist, and all.
Can we assume then that sutemi waza is not your specialty?
---
Paul T.
Badger_South
wrote:
>Nowadays, I don't do endurance sports since they take too much training
>time. I whitewater kayak in the rapids and I spend a lot of time up in the
>high mountains on my Observed Trials motorcycle leaping from boulder to
>boulder. :^)
That's gotta be a rush. I've been thinking of getting a kayak, b/c there's
a river (Rivanna) right in my backyard, and maybe (someday) planning a
sea-kayak adventure, but not sure where.
But seriousness aside, how many boulders does that kind of motorcycling
require? I guess you could use the same two over and over again. Do chicks
dig that kind of thing?
>>
>> At the one hour mark in jogging and the two hour mark in biking there's a
>> definite change in consciousness that makes it all worthwhile.
>>
>> Plus in biking, you get to wear neat lycra and spandex garments, and dye
>> your hair nifty colors.
>
>Hmmmmm. I see. Sounds sort of like a lot of these Harley riders I see on
>the road that appear to motorcycle mainly for the boutique aspects of it.
>:^)
Hey, accessories are everything. Just ask Paris Hilton. She's made
immaturity an art form. If my biking shorts don't match my jersey, well,
I'm just miffed for hours, at least until the laundry comes back.
-B
>Mike
Mike Sigman
"T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote in message
news:10ai8ij...@corp.supernews.com...
No, I don't. Could you explain it for me???? :^)
Badger North
wrote:
>Plus in biking, you get to wear neat lycra and spandex garments, and dye
>your hair nifty colors.
John Wayne didn't wear no goddamn lycra.
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Badger_South
wrote:
Hah, why do you think he walked funny like that?
-B
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
>news:c89pgj$vag$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>> In article <BLCdncYLuKZ...@bresnan.com>,
>> >> I've taken falls on concrete and asphalt (went over the handlebars of
>> >> my bike), and, for that matter, gravel (tripped over a tree root and
>> >> did a zempo kaiten; my gf spent ten minutes picking chunks of rock out
>> >> of my back and arms). Lots of people do this without serious injury.
>> >
>> >The problem with all these comments about "breakfalls on concrete" is
>that
>> >some people are talking about rolling breakfalls and some, including the
>> >article, are talking about straight into the ground without rolling.
>>
>> We've done both! And again who is most likely to take that fall?
>[[snip LONG rambling "grapplers are the greatest and can handle
>ANYTHING!!"]]
>
>Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite a few people
>going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on concrete, slapped the ground
>hard everytime, and it's impossible to hurt my hand",
Actually, and I'm sure Mike knows this, NO-ONE has ever come close to claiming
this.
It's known as a "Strawman argument"... and it seems interesting that Mike is
forced to argue this, rather than the factual statements that many Judoka have
made.
>slapping your hand and
>arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original article, damage your hand.
Absolutely! No Judoka has EVER said otherwise. I defy Mike to produce a quote
from anyone who did.
What Mike keeps ignoring is that "slapping" is one of the several methods by
which you can prevent serious injury when falling. Simply because the surface
you're falling on is hard and rocky, rather than smooth and soft, doesn't change
the physics of falling.
But, rather than get into this over again, I invite anyone interested to locate
the original debate on this topic.
>Over the years I've known a lot of people who have gotten away with a
>stinging hand, but I've also known too many who hurt their hand, to varying
>degrees. As a med student, you should at least be aware of that
>possibility.... it'll help when you go into residency and get assigned the
>emergency room on raucous weekends.
>
>Let's get a little more clinical with these comments, doc-to-be, and get
>onto some other rotation that allows you to catch some sleep. :^)
>
>Mike
Badger North
wrote:
>>John Wayne didn't wear no goddamn lycra.
>
>Hah, why do you think he walked funny like that?
'Cuz he liked to ride without the bike seat attached?
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Mike Sigman
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:c8b8a...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> >
> >Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite a few people
> >going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on concrete, slapped the
ground
> >hard everytime, and it's impossible to hurt my hand",
>
> Actually, and I'm sure Mike knows this, NO-ONE has ever come close to
claiming
> this.
>
Well, all the people that have IQ's over the double-digits know what I'm
talking about, Ben, and they've seen the posts, too. In other words, only a
simpleton would try to make a counter-argument, but hey.....
> It's known as a "Strawman argument"... and it seems interesting that Mike
is
> forced to argue this, rather than the factual statements that many Judoka
have
> made.
>
> >slapping your hand and
> >arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original article, damage your
hand.
>
> Absolutely! No Judoka has EVER said otherwise. I defy Mike to produce a
quote
> from anyone who did.
Now that you've come in and contributed absolutely nothing to the
discussion, maybe it's time to leave again?
>
> What Mike keeps ignoring is that "slapping" is one of the several methods
by
> which you can prevent serious injury when falling. Simply because the
surface
> you're falling on is hard and rocky, rather than smooth and soft, doesn't
change
> the physics of falling.
>
> But, rather than get into this over again, I invite anyone interested to
locate
> the original debate on this topic.
What? You want everyone to see proof that you're a dummy and don't know
anything about physics? Well, it's up to you. Remember again that we need
to clarify about rolling versus vertical ukemi and you may want to jizz up a
little bit on force dynamics, rotational momentum, impulse, and the like.
Do like you did last time and pull out the Robert Smith quote to prove that
you can ukemi on concrete ... you know, the one where he admits he broke his
elbow but says he'd have broken so much more if he hadn't absorbed the fall
with his arm. :^)))))
Mike
Bill
>Just don't underestimate a treacherous old man with a weapon. ;-)
>
>
Is there any other range?
<G>
Perk
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:c8b8a...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>> >
>> >Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite a few people
>> >going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on concrete, slapped the
>ground
>> >hard everytime, and it's impossible to hurt my hand",
>>
>> Actually, and I'm sure Mike knows this, NO-ONE has ever come close to
>> claiming this.
>
>Well, all the people that have IQ's over the double-digits know what I'm
>talking about, Ben, and they've seen the posts, too.
And yet, you can't seem to produce a quote.
Demonstrating the truth of my point, that you are forced to make up arguments to
debate against, since you can't deal with the facts presented.
And no, I don't think anyone else has seen these mythical posts either.
>In other words, only a simpleton would try to make a counter-argument,
>but hey.....
Got confused, I see. It's not a "counter-argument", it's merely pointing out
that you are creating mythical statements...
Or, to put it more bluntly, you lie about what others say...
>> It's known as a "Strawman argument"... and it seems interesting
>> that Mike is forced to argue this, rather than the factual statements
>> that many Judoka have made.
Notice that Mike has *NOT* produced any examples...
>> >slapping your hand and
>> >arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original article, damage your
>> >hand.
>>
>> Absolutely! No Judoka has EVER said otherwise. I defy Mike to
>> produce a quote from anyone who did.
>
>Now that you've come in and contributed absolutely nothing to the
>discussion, maybe it's time to leave again?
Actually, I *have* contributed... I'm pointing out that you lied, and rather
broadly at that.
>> What Mike keeps ignoring is that "slapping" is one of the several
>> methods by which you can prevent serious injury when falling. Simply
>> because the surface you're falling on is hard and rocky, rather than
>> smooth and soft, doesn't change the physics of falling.
Mike has no answer to this conundrum... other than to attempt to quote
"experienced Judoka". It's unfortunate that he can't find any...
>> But, rather than get into this over again, I invite anyone interested
>> to locate the original debate on this topic.
>
>What? You want everyone to see proof that you're a dummy and don't know
>anything about physics? Well, it's up to you.
I well remember that you kept asserting that my information about ukemi was
wrong. I *also* well remember that you couldn't find any "experienced Judoka"
to back you up.
Unlike some, I'm never afraid of people going back and re-reading old posts by
myself.
>Remember again that we need
>to clarify about rolling versus vertical ukemi and you may want to jizz up a
>little bit on force dynamics, rotational momentum, impulse, and the like.
Nah... you see, *I'm* the "experienced Judoka" that you tried to make claims
about.
>Do like you did last time and pull out the Robert Smith quote to prove that
>you can ukemi on concrete ... you know, the one where he admits he broke his
>elbow but says he'd have broken so much more if he hadn't absorbed the fall
>with his arm. :^)))))
Yep... in direct contradiction to YOUR statements... proved you wrong, and you
*still* don't see it.
>Mike
I see you're still as much a liar as ever, though...
Mike Sigman
> In article <8NmdnftHfph...@bresnan.com>, Mike Sigman says...
> >
> >
> >"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
> >news:c8b8a...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite a few
people
> >> >going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on concrete, slapped the
> >ground
> >> >hard everytime, and it's impossible to hurt my hand",
> >>
> >> Actually, and I'm sure Mike knows this, NO-ONE has ever come close to
> >> claiming this.
> >
> >Well, all the people that have IQ's over the double-digits know what I'm
> >talking about, Ben, and they've seen the posts, too.
>
> And yet, you can't seem to produce a quote.
You're just about the only fool on RMA that would take an obviously acerbic
comment about "millions of falls" and ask for a quote, Ben. That's how dumb
you are. You just don't understand life, do you? You had several people,
including ex-judoka, tell you that you were wrong about the "physics" you
were dumb enough to bring into the previous topic, but now you're back to
saying no experienced judoka agree with me. You're a fool, a liar, and a
dumb fuck, Holmes.
Mike Sigman
Fraser Johnston
"coldblood" <coldblo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:c15qc.512190$Ig.405981@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> > >I really like Eric's point of view... it's not going to be the Judoka
> > >slapping...
> > >
> >
> > unless they're fighting a wrestler......
> >
>
>
> even then they wont be slapping. i dont slap when i get double legged, do
> you?
>
>
I did on the weekend. But that was drilling. In sparring I don't.
Fraser
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> >I've always thought this was idiotic. Do I really want some guy who
>> >hasn't slept for 24 hours to suture a cut, when he can barely see
>> >straight?
>>
>> It isn't the suturing that worries me so much as the idea
>> that this sleep-deprived wreck is going to be diagnosing
>> people in need of rapid accurate treatment, or quite possibly
>> performing major surgery on them.
>
>It's a primitive system. However, recent rulings, lawsuits, etc., are
>causing many medical programs to reduce the hours that interns, residents,
>etc., work. You need to bear in mind that doctors tend to take call on a
>rotating basis when they go into regular practice and the experience of
>learning to work when you're tired, sleepy, etc., is a needed training
>device.
Pure BS! While many programs are trying/attempting the enforce the
80hr work week, the standard call is Q4 (ie. every 4th night). So every
4th night I stay at the hospital.
This week that's Tues and Sat. So I go in Tues 06:00 ~ Wed 12:00, and
Sat 06:00 ~ Sun 12:00! I will be awake the entire time. "It's a needed
training device?" For what? What is this training me to do? Do learn
not to give a damn about my patients, to learn how to not ask questions
because I don't want to hear the answer, to focus more on going home and
going to sleep than the care of patients, etc. Does it increase the
safety of students/residents as the drive home after being up for
33-36hrs?
There is nothing about the system that's of any real benifit. It's
not an evidence tested model, it's based on tradiation and economics
(taking in more residents would cost more money).
Don't misunderstand, I signed up for the program. But I was somewhat
blinding not to the hours themselves but the total BS that goes on with
scheduling. There is NO LOGICALLY debate that can state that keeping
anyone awake for 30hrs+ improves outcomes :) This is esp true for
medicine. If you did nothing my stamp letters all day you're not going to
'right' after a 36hr shift.
It's illegal for non-professionals to even work these hours. Build
them down and build them back up? Nope, first there's no building back up
phase :) And second there's no plan. The army has a plan when they force
peopke to do similar activities, medicine does not. We do it because it's
always been done that way. And IMHO that's an 'inane/stupid' reason to
carry out policy in a disciple that is suppose to be evidence/science
based.
Ask youself if you would be a better <insert job here> if you were not
allowed to sleep every 3rd or 4th night?!?
'Vejita' S. Cousin
[SNIP]
>How can one diagnose arthritis needing hip-replacement in a person that
>bikes 100 miles a week and does 20 rep squats with 225 lbs? It defies logic
>until you realize they aren't even listening to you, because visions of new
>cars and big screen tvs are dancing in their heads. ;-p
Believe it or not that's not what they are (most likely) thining about.
Despite the public opinion, MDs are not rich (yes they make a lot more
than most). What the system actually does is crush your desire to help
your patients. Not all MDs end up like that, but a lot do.
Again it's not about breaking you down and building you up, the whole
process is actually about hurting you for 5-8yrs. When you graduate after
all that you just don't care any more. Patients (pt) are an annoyance.
Yeah you want to care, but you just can't take the whining from them (when
you're sick or hurt people whine), if they have a problem you can't help
with you just don't want to deal with them because it's a 'waste of time',
etc.
THAT'S the end result of the current system. I kind of always knew
this, but didn't realize how bad it was (ratio wise) until I got in it.
And the whole system is setup to reward you for giving up (not selling out
mind you, but just giving up). I'm into my 14wk of 'real medicine' as it
were and already I have to catch/stop myself from doing some of these
things:
"Don't ask the pt that, because if they answer yes it's more work
for me"
"Don't correct the higher ups when they make mistakes, cause it'll
only bite you in the ass"
etc. etc.
I'm still winning out, and actually now plan to start doing a lot more to
reform the process (mind you that'll be after I finish in 2012 ^_^). It's
not an active system either, it's a passive one. Which in a way is worst,
because it it was a few people at the top causing all the problems you
could just get rid of/replace them. But it's not, it's an institutional
problem.
Here's the basic break down:
06:00 - 12:00 kind of tried but ready to go, let's help/cure some people
12:00 - 18:00 kind of hungry, got a lot of paper work to get done. Where
is that pt anyway (they move in the hospital between floors, Xray, etc).
18:00-0:00 Really hungry, more paperwork to finish. That guy looks
'stable' his Hct is constant, UA was negative, and BP is > 90 (don't worry
about what that means). Man I hope no new pts arrive, or that nothing
major comes into the ER I've got a lot of crap to get done.
~02:00 Very tired, sometimes space out, yawn or forget what I was doing.
Head might drop for a sec, really thinking about what paperwork I need to
do to go home. F&CK GSW (gun shot wound) just came through the door,
there goes _MY_ whole night
06:00 Rounds again, I just say these people they're the same. Why are you
yelling at me (pts, staff, superiors)
11:45 time to go, let's go, come on hurry up I need to get out of here.
etc. etc. It's not a benign process :) But believe me most MDs don't
dismiss you because they are thinking about that new car. They dismiss
you because (IMHO) they've come to dislike 'certain' patients. Patients
are what makes their life/work hard (yeah it's hard to explain, but you
get the idea). When you show up with 'problems' it just makes many of
them withdrawl.
That's a result of the system (sort of like forcing kids to eat vegs,
it might be good for you but then they go to college and rebel against it.
Basically the system indirectly encourges you to come to dislike patients
that can not be instantly cured).
Mike Sigman
> >
> >It's a primitive system. However, recent rulings, lawsuits, etc., are
> >causing many medical programs to reduce the hours that interns,
residents,
> >etc., work. You need to bear in mind that doctors tend to take call on a
> >rotating basis when they go into regular practice and the experience of
> >learning to work when you're tired, sleepy, etc., is a needed training
> >device.
>
> Pure BS! While many programs are trying/attempting the enforce the
> 80hr work week, the standard call is Q4 (ie. every 4th night). So every
> 4th night I stay at the hospital.
> This week that's Tues and Sat. So I go in Tues 06:00 ~ Wed 12:00, and
> Sat 06:00 ~ Sun 12:00! I will be awake the entire time. "It's a needed
> training device?" For what? What is this training me to do? Do learn
> not to give a damn about my patients, to learn how to not ask questions
> because I don't want to hear the answer, to focus more on going home and
> going to sleep than the care of patients, etc. Does it increase the
> safety of students/residents as the drive home after being up for
> 33-36hrs?
> There is nothing about the system that's of any real benifit.
Whoa! Dude! Lighten up. Remember.... you're a gggrrappppplerrrr!!!!
Yeah, I think it's tough and medieval, but every time my wife has to go in
for an emergency at 3am when she's on call, I think to my self, I say,
"Self... it's OK 'cause she practiced doing this in residency". See? Makes
me feel a lot better so I can roll over and go back to sleep knowing that
all is well. :^)
> Don't misunderstand, I signed up for the program. But I was somewhat
> blinding not to the hours themselves but the total BS that goes on with
> scheduling. There is NO LOGICALLY debate that can state that keeping
> anyone awake for 30hrs+ improves outcomes :) This is esp true for
> medicine. If you did nothing my stamp letters all day you're not going to
> 'right' after a 36hr shift.
> It's illegal for non-professionals to even work these hours. Build
> them down and build them back up? Nope, first there's no building back up
> phase :) And second there's no plan. The army has a plan when they force
> peopke to do similar activities, medicine does not. We do it because it's
> always been done that way. And IMHO that's an 'inane/stupid' reason to
> carry out policy in a disciple that is suppose to be evidence/science
> based.
> Ask youself if you would be a better <insert job here> if you were not
> allowed to sleep every 3rd or 4th night?!?
Hey. I know it ain't fun. Hang in there.
Mike
Badger_South
wrote:
>In article <imsha01m4vitp3cba...@4ax.com>,
>[SNIP]
>>How can one diagnose arthritis needing hip-replacement in a person that
>>bikes 100 miles a week and does 20 rep squats with 225 lbs? It defies logic
>>until you realize they aren't even listening to you, because visions of new
>>cars and big screen tvs are dancing in their heads. ;-p
>
> Believe it or not that's not what they are (most likely) thining about.
>Despite the public opinion, MDs are not rich (yes they make a lot more
>than most). What the system actually does is crush your desire to help
>your patients. Not all MDs end up like that, but a lot do.
> Again it's not about breaking you down and building you up, the whole
>process is actually about hurting you for 5-8yrs. When you graduate after
>all that you just don't care any more. Patients (pt) are an annoyance.
>Yeah you want to care, but you just can't take the whining from them (when
>you're sick or hurt people whine), if they have a problem you can't help
>with you just don't want to deal with them because it's a 'waste of time',
>etc.
That makes a lot of sense, but this particular Ortho guy was top guy at the
sports med section and I don't think he sees a lot of gomers. He knew I was
a hospital employee, and had a medical background, and should have been
-worth- his time. You're right, it probably wasn't visions of $$, but
supreme arrogance and disbelief that someone would question his diagnosis.
In addition I was a worker's comp injury, so maybe those cases are the kind
they like to wrap up and sign off on. I don't know.
I do know that the pain and spasm was on the -outer- part of the hip near
the piriformis, and not inguinal, where the head of the trochanter enters
the hip joint. Typically, the saying goes 'if it's in the groin fold, it
probably the joint. If it's on the outer or lateral hip, it's probably a
spinal/lower back problem.'
In addition I had a leg length discrepancy. If the problem is the hip then
the affected side is -shorter- since the head of the femur will have sunken
into the socket. My affected leg was longer. Examination showed that my
sacrum was slightly 'twisted', and when PT corrected this twist, the pain
and limp went away.
I think the doc realized the PT guy got it right and that -I- was right as
I relayed this to him and his ego couldn't take it. He got pissy and then
proceeded to display this by trying to get a knee jerk reflex. He tried to
tap me with the hammer, but wasn't centered on the knee. Since he was
sitting off to the side he couldn't hit the right location. Did he get up
and move? No he kept tapping it and then started tapping it harder. I
finally said 'OW'!
I said 'is there something else we can do? I feel I'm almost completely
healed, but there still seems to be spasming. Can we use a short course of
cortisone?' He got pissier, and said, 'well we can cut into your hip'.
At this point I was really getting angry. He left the room after putting
the metal hammer on the desk. I got up, got dressed and left. Oh, on the
way out I snapped his hammer in two.
I called back to cancel the follow up and the nurse asked why. I said 'well
the doctor displayed a "hostile attitude" and I don't want to see him
again' He didn't like that one bit but wouldn't come to the phone to talk
to me. He probably rationalized and thought -I- was the one with a hostile
attitude.
-B
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
Tanenbaum) wrote:
Heh.
1) Actually, sutemi is my bread and butter.
2) As you know, Bob, <sacrifice> != <being thrown>. Unless the referee
is an idiot, that is.
king abiu
> > >slapping your hand and arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original
> > >article, damage your hand ...
>
> ...the one where he admits he broke his elbow but says he'd have broken so
> much more if he hadn't absorbed the fall with his arm. :^)))))
I think this discussion wouldn't be complete without citing the
opinion of recognized Shuai Jiao authority Liang Shou-Yu. His method
of breakfalling, as found in his book "Chinese Fast Wrestling for
Fighting (san shou kuai jiao)" frequently mentions arms & slapping.
specifically, he -recommends- them. quoted here, his methods for:
falling sideways:
"... keep your right arm bent with fingers pointing inward and use the
arm to absorb the shock."
coiling leg and falling sideways:
"... Also use both palms and the inside right forearm to absorb the
shock."
falling backward from standing:
"... extend both arms to sides as you begin to fall backward. keep
chin tucked in. just as the upper part of your back touches the
ground, slap the ground with he insides of both arms and thrust your
stomach forward. hold your breath and tense your muscles to help
prevent injury."
cheers,
charlie
Earl Camembert
>>>
>>Any one that Mountain Bikes in even a moderate gonzo way knows that a
>>tuck and role is mandatory when one go over the handle bars; rolling
>>if far superior to sliding.
>
>hah. yehright. You don't have clipless pedals?
>
>Rolling would be nice if you could do it.
>
>Trav
Yes I do Shimano PD-M959 Clipless Pedals. I do not make a practice of
going over the high side but a slight outward twist and out I come.
Kirk Lawson
> When you show up with 'problems' it just makes many of
> them withdrawl.
> That's a result of the system (sort of like forcing kids to eat vegs,
> it might be good for you but then they go to college and rebel against it.
> Basically the system indirectly encourges you to come to dislike patients
> that can not be instantly cured).
I go to church & am friends with a number of Drs. and Nurses. From what
I can tell, you've got to have *something* else in your life besides
Medicine to keep you sympathetic and caring. It also seems to take a
certain personality type.
And no, they ain't "rich." As far as I can tell, Middle Management at
most companies makes as much as or more than most Drs.
Kirk Lawson
> You're right, it probably wasn't visions of $$, but
> supreme arrogance and disbelief that someone would question his diagnosis.
> ... his ego couldn't take it. He got pissy a ...
> ... He got pissier, and said, 'well we can cut into your hip'.
> I said 'well the doctor displayed a "hostile attitude" and I don't
> want to see him
> again' He didn't like that one bit but wouldn't come to the phone to talk
> to me. He probably rationalized and thought -I- was the one with a hostile
> attitude.
This is fairly common to pretty much any profession in which "knowledge
work" is a high requirement.
WebMD just had a brief article "Too Many People Ignore Chronic Pain" but
it didn't go into *why* people don't seek help outside of one sentence
in the first paragraph suggesting it's because they're in denial. I
wonder if this sort of "institutionalized aggression toward patients"
might have something to do with it?
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/86/99137.htm
> Oh, on the way out I snapped his hammer in two.
hahahaha Good fer you! :-)
Pierre Honeyman
You don't always get a choice. I've had my bike come with me with plain old straps.
Pierre
Badger_South
You guys are confusing me. The two groups I now frequent are the
rec.biking.* and RMA, and now I have to keep checking which group I'm on.
;-p
-B
Sucka
>Believe me it takes determination and fortitude to be able to ride everyday
>and to cover that many per month on an old beater MTN bike, weighing 45lbs!
WTF are you doing riding a piece of crap like that?
That's probably causing the arthritis. The rest of your body wants off that
embarassing clunker.
>last 10
>miles, but he says no. I say nothing, but secretly smile, knowing I'm
>putting in at least double the mileage he is, plus, I got the 'animal'
>gene. He got the 'fussy' gene, although I'm wearing spandex and he's
>wearing t-shirt and cutoffs.. ;-p)
>
>-B
Get a time trial bike.
Trav
Sucka
>At the one hour mark in jogging and the two hour mark in biking there's a
>definite change in consciousness that makes it all worthwhile.
I never noted such a mark, unless you mean the bonk onset at about 2:30.
>Plus in biking, you get to wear neat lycra and spandex garments, and dye
>your hair nifty colors.
>
>-B
>
I used to get hollered at by loggers for this.
Trav
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
wrote:
>"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@bresnan.net> wrote in message news:<8NmdnftHfph...@bresnan.com>...
>
>> > >slapping your hand and arm on concrete CAN, as was said in the original
>> > >article, damage your hand ...
>>
>> ...the one where he admits he broke his elbow but says he'd have broken so
>> much more if he hadn't absorbed the fall with his arm. :^)))))
>
>I think this discussion wouldn't be complete without citing the
>opinion of recognized Shuai Jiao authority Liang Shou-Yu.
LMAO.
Neatly done.
Sucka
>going over the high side but a slight outward twist and out I come.
>
An endo is not a high side fall.
I use Look pedals and I have endoed with the bike many, many times. You end up
flat on your back with a bike attached to you.
Tarv
Sucka
>>You don't always get a choice. I've had my bike come with me with plain old
>straps.
>>
>>Pierre
>
>You guys are confusing me. The two groups I now frequent are the
>rec.biking.* and RMA, and now I have to keep checking which group I'm on.
> ;-p
>
>-B
Hey, you want bike advise, I can give it to ya. I used to do that every day.
I used to put in a couple hundred miles a week, combined with intervals, hill
work, sprints.
Trav
Mike Sigman
"Eric D. Berge" <eric_berge @ hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ukbka05dm5anneuhg...@4ax.com...
What? Did you miss out on reading comprehension? What Charlie was talking
about was NOT the vertical falls under discussion. I know exactly what the
*training* stuff is that Liang emphasizes, you idiot.
Mike
Adam
miles a week on the road - usually with a century ride each week. raced a
little, sucked at it. Then I moved to the mountains of california and
traded it for a mountain bike and job as head mechanic in a local shop.
The whole phase lasted about 5 years.
Chucked all that for climbing (10 year phase), which was subsequently
chucked for BJJ (coming up on 1 year).
Ben Holmes
Actually, in the *original* discussion, vertical vs rolling falls was NOT
discussed. That Mike has figured this out - and is now attempting to muddy the
waters, is amusing! :)
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>news:c8bg9...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> In article <8NmdnftHfph...@bresnan.com>, Mike Sigman says...
>> >
>> >
>> >"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
>> >news:c8b8a...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Er, back to the subject at hand. The point is that despite
>> >> >a few people going onto the "I've taken millions of falls on
>> >> >concrete, slapped the ground hard everytime, and it's impossible
>> >> >to hurt my hand",
>> >>
>> >> Actually, and I'm sure Mike knows this, NO-ONE has ever come close to
>> >> claiming this.
>> >
>> >Well, all the people that have IQ's over the double-digits know what I'm
>> >talking about, Ben, and they've seen the posts, too.
>>
>> And yet, you can't seem to produce a quote.
>
>You're just about the only fool on RMA that would take an obviously acerbic
>comment about "millions of falls" and ask for a quote, Ben.
Actually, I was looking for a quote from *anyone* who claims the impossibility
of hurting one's hand while slapping on concrete.
That's *never* been claimed by anyone.
That you are forced to make such wild claims demonstrates the weakness of your
argument.
You see, I can recognize hyperbole, but when you flat out start lying about what
people have said, I merely point it out.
I'm sure others noticed... but it's fun pointing out your lies... :)
>That's how dumb
>you are. You just don't understand life, do you? You had several people,
>including ex-judoka, tell you that you were wrong about the "physics" you
>were dumb enough to bring into the previous topic, but now you're back to
>saying no experienced judoka agree with me.
Your memory is poor, or you're merely a liar. You attempted to make a claim
that "experienced Judoka" would agree with, yet couldn't find a single one to
step forward and agree with you.
And I invite anyone to go back at take a look at my "physics"... there's nothing
wrong with what little I posted on the topic.
>You're a fool, a liar, and a
>dumb fuck, Holmes.
>
>Mike Sigman
Noticed that you felt it necessary to snip the rest of my reply without comment
or notice.
Everyone, be sure to look back on the reply that Mike was too cowardly to leave
unsnipped.
Mike Sigman
acerbic
> >comment about "millions of falls" and ask for a quote, Ben.
>
> Actually, I was looking for a quote from *anyone* who claims the
impossibility
> of hurting one's hand while slapping on concrete.
>
> That's *never* been claimed by anyone.
>
> That you are forced to make such wild claims demonstrates the weakness of
your
> argument.
>
> You see, I can recognize hyperbole,
Well look above where you STILL are looking for an actual claim backing up
my obviously acerbic comment. Tell us sincerely that you "can recognize
hyperbole", but not in the very case we're talking about. Do you now see
why I consider you a dumbass? You're simply stupid.
>
> Your memory is poor, or you're merely a liar. You attempted to make a
claim
> that "experienced Judoka" would agree with, yet couldn't find a single one
to
> step forward and agree with you.
>
Ben, go back to the top of this message and re-read about how you can
recognize hyperbole, etc. Then notice how even though you claim you can
recognize hyperbole, you still want a fucking quote to back it up. Now
apply exactly the same circumstances to that first post on breakfalls and
you'll understand why I immediately recognized you for a fool. And you're
still a fool.
> And I invite anyone to go back at take a look at my "physics"... there's
nothing
> wrong with what little I posted on the topic.
Yes, there was, dummy. You were told so by others. But you conveniently
forget when you've been publicly stupid, don't you? You have selective
memory.
>
> >You're a fool, a liar, and a
> >dumb fuck, Holmes.
> >
> >Mike Sigman
>
> Noticed that you felt it necessary to snip the rest of my reply without
comment
> or notice.
It's been covered before, Ben. I try to shorten posts to what I've got the
time and inclination to answer. That's been pointed out before to you, but
you "forgot", didn't you?
Mike
Mike Sigman
> >
> >What? Did you miss out on reading comprehension? What Charlie was
talking
> >about was NOT the vertical falls under discussion. I know exactly what
the
> >*training* stuff is that Liang emphasizes, you idiot.
> >
> >Mike
>
> Actually, in the *original* discussion, vertical vs rolling falls was NOT
> discussed. That Mike has figured this out - and is now attempting to
muddy the
> waters, is amusing! :)
>
Yeah, well we're not talking about the *original* discussion, dummy. Notice
I said "under discussion", because I've mentioned it for several posts
subsequent to that. Reading comprehension, Ben... get some. Besides.... do
you slap the ground with your hand in a rolling ukemi? Do you? Can I get
a picture of it? I don't think I could slap the ground if I tried on a
rolling ukemi, yet you seem to imply it's a valid way of rolling.
Mike