failing a black belt test
l.a. dehaan
Hi.
About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, so after
the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
(May) and then quit. I'm only continuing because I didn't pay for it (it
was a gift). Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
doubt I will. I told my karate teacher that I have no intention of trying
again, but he doesn't believe me. He still sees me as the person who loves
karate, but she's gone. Going to the dojo is a chore now and I can't see
how that can change.
Anyway, my point is that no one understands. They all pat me on the head
and tell me it'll be okay when I try again in June. If any one has any
comments, suggestions or just understands, please e-mail me (as I rarely
lurk here anymore).
Thanks for listening (reading) if nothing else.
Les
Michael Chock
l.a. dehaan wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
> suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
> going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
> competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
> division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
> belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
> short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>
> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
> both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
> it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
> quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
>
It happens. You know that even if you don't feel it. You're the
only one who can make the final decision to go back. Think of it
as an object lesson in humility (something very difficult to learn
if you haven't had anything to be humble about). I think sooner
or later every martial artist learns that you can't always be the
best; you can only keep getting better.
I would tend to say it's time to take a break. Going back right
now will only teach you to hate the class more. If/when you're
ready, go back and start taking classes again. I don't think you
would have posted if you didn't want to be talked into going back
at _some_ point.
- Mike
Another blatant plug for:
The Software Zone Games Pages
http://www.softwarezone.com/
Waldo
My firt reaction to your post was to call you an asshole and laugh, but
after furthur reflection, here's my two cents.
You failed your test. Regardless of everything you did up to that
point, you did not pass. Deal with it. If you were in Med school and
you failed a test you would not be able to operate on any paitents.
Your sensei was judging you by HIS standards. If you like what the
school is teaching and respect the instructors, then you must accept
that you fell short of what they call a "black belt".
How dare you assume that you would pass that test. When I tested for
Shodan I was a nervous wreck. If I was told that I failed, I would try
harder the next time, so as not to embarass my sensei. You weren't the
only one who failed out there, your sensei failed to prepare you
(someone who he considered worthy of testing) well enough to meet the
requirements.
Suck it up, stop crying, and try again. What will you do if you "fail"
to block the first punch in a fight? Whine and quit, or keep on trying
to win?
Waldo
LisaM
I agree with Mike. Taking a break may be the answer. I have had to
give up my training for three years due to continuos moves with my
current employer. I have now recently settled back down and find that
there is something missing. What's missing is the sense of fulfillment
that comes with a commitment. It's not that you "failed" your test --
you have already completed alot and you need to respect that. Not
everyone makes the commitment that you have made.
Too many people start studying for the wrong reasons. It's obvious in
you message that you are truly committed. Hang in there, take a break,
then go back when you're ready.
JT
Scott Meeker
why did you fail?
Yes, I'm still here...
Les;
> So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
>(May) and then quit.
If your art and your teacher is worth anything, both are requiring something
from you that you havn't obtained, or won't put out.
I cringed when I read your mail. Comments like;
> Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, so after
>the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
>think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
And;
> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
>both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
>it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
>quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
You need to look inside for the real answer dude, the attitude I read into
the above comments points to something much deeper than whether or not
you can perform physically as well as the others.
In *real* budo (as much as I'm capable of understanding it) there's much
more to acheiving shodan than just being "good". There's spirit, devotion,
*heart*, compassion and the most important, wisdom.
You said;
> I was an avid student,
>going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
>competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
>division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
So allow me to paraphrase what I feel you're saying in your post.
"I made Karate my life, but I wasn't rewarded appropriately for it,
so now I quite"
Les - take my word in this, it really isn't Karate that is your life.
Approval and appreciation, and finally true reward have to come from you
first.
Maybe you need to quit for awhile and try and answer the most important
question, "why am I doing martial arts"?
I'd venture to bet that your Sensei is one wise dude, trust him and learn
to appeciate yourself.
Greg
6th kyu, Budo Taijutsu
Guadalupo Guadelupe
"l.a. dehaan" <lde...@julian.uwo.ca> wrote:
->
-> Hi.
->
-> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
->suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
->going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
->competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
[snip]
->
-> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
->both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
HAHAHAAA!!! HAHAAAAAAA!HAAAAAAAAABWWWWWAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You suck!! You suck!!!!!!!!!!
HAHAAAA!!
No No no!!!! Just kidding!!! Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know the problem is that you are dealing with bureaucracy. It's
bureauCRAZY! That's what it is! How random a thing to have a bunch of old-farts
judge you for how you fight. For god's sakes, you could have easily beaten
those douche-bags into pieces!
Who are they to tell you if you should get a blackbelt or what! It's just those
old pompous impotent old men (and/or women) who called themselves Sensei's and
make up goofy organizations to rip you off your money!!! That's where the
problem is! It's those silly ass denture wearing, depends leaking,
hair-whiting, fart-pumping, social security scrubbing, senior's discount
getting, life-insurance buying, Frank Sinatra liking old sack of bones
bureaucrates that's the problem!!!!!!!
Yo! Who are they to withheld a belt from you and say that 'this belt is all
mighty!' and make you pay thousands and then won't give it to you cause they
just don't feel like it! It's a stupid organization! That's what!!!
So, just remember that Karate and bureaucracies are the problems here. Don't do
Karate, it will get you killed in a real fight anyway. Go do Kung Fu, Tai-Chi,
Shiao Jiao, or hell, even shootfighting or Brazilian Jiujitsu! That will teach
you fighting! Karate ain't worth shit in a fight and Karate old-farts who
deemed the blackbelt so high and won't give it to you are
human-processed-food's-waste!!
So this is good! You can take this perfect opportunity to learn real fighting!
And then! Vengence!!!!!!!!!! Revenge!!! Go back and beat the dung out of those
doof-faces!!!!!!!!!!
Yo! I'm out!
Regards,
Guadalupo Guadelupe (muy pronto aqui en Telemundo)
Guadalupo Guadelupe
And what the hell is your problem!?!!!?? Putting so much on this failure of
this stupidbelt test?
You some kind of immature narcissistic pampered, daddy's little girl, never
failed before in my life, suburban sheltered, always the 'special' child,
malls-hounding, melrose-place watching, family protecting, Gap wearing kind of
brat?
In that case, STOP THE FREAKING WHINNING!!!!
If not, sorry about that. These things happen. The judges are never totally
fair and can be moronically biased, or just asleep. I remember one time judging
a stupid karate tournament, I'd gave points to the guy whose style I liked even
when he was not even close to landing that punch! I tell you judges are biased
and totally chaotic! Hell, even approaching random! either just go finish what
you have started and get that black thing or get out while you can and find
someting better!
Muy Bien,
Guadalupo Guadelupe (estoy es muy pronto!)
mol...@sprynet.com
> "l.a. dehaan" <lde...@julian.uwo.ca> writes:
>
> Hi.
>
> So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
> was a gift). Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
> doubt I will. I told my karate teacher that I have no intention of trying
> again, but he doesn't believe me. He still sees me as the person who loves
> karate, but she's gone. Going to the dojo is a chore now and I can't see
> how that can change.
>
>
I feel your pain, buddy. Feeling like a failure in MA (especially if you've
done well up to that point), is hard to get over. But you CANT QUIT! Good god,
man, get ahold of yourself! Think about every stinking class where you did
a million push-ups. Every class where you were so tired you thought you were
going to puke. Every freaking drop of sweat that the Dojoj floor soaked up.
Did you ever think back then you were going to quit? Imagine explaining to
that past you (ok--its transcendental, but its just a thought exercise) that you're
going to quit. What would he (you) say? I imagine it'd be something like
"All this hard work I'm doing, and you want to quit? Not a chance!"
I think not getting your black belt is something you'll really regret. At least
you have some closure then....you accomplished what you set out to do. After
that, you can do whatever you want. But let me tell you, the first time you walk
into the studio, and see that belt around your waist in the practice mirror,
you feel like you're walking on air. You did it!
And besides, I was passed down three times, yes, THREE TIMES for
my black belt. And had a closet full of forms trophies; I thought 'whats wrong'?
But every time, I'd go to the Sifu, and he'd say "You don't believe in yourself
enough." It took me over a year from my initial test to get the belt.
Talk to your teacher.....he probably has a very good reason why he decided
to pass you up 'till the next test. Instead of deciding to quit, find out your
weaknesses, ask if he'll help you with them (And I'm sure he will). Decide
your next test is going to be THE BEST BLACK BELT TEST THE SCHOOL HAS
EVER SEEN!
Martial arts is succeeding in the face of adversity. Getting through this is your
real black belt test, not the one in the studio.
I'm rooting for you, pal.
-Trip
Richard H. Kim
In the Year of Our Lord 13 Dec 1996 03:37:57 GMT, the Heathen Guadalupo
Guadelupe <Aq...@telemundo.org> wrote:
>And what the hell is your problem!?!!!?? Putting so much on this failure of
>this stupidbelt test?
>You some kind of immature narcissistic pampered, daddy's little girl, never
>failed before in my life, suburban sheltered, always the 'special' child,
>malls-hounding, melrose-place watching, family protecting, Gap wearing kind of
>brat?
>
Whats wrong with Melrose Place?
If at first you don't succeed, call for artillery,
If that doesn't work, call in an air strike.
Murphy's Laws of Combat #21a,b
Weedhopper
Pai Yili
In article <58pk4b$7...@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca>, "l.a. dehaan" <lde...@julian.uwo.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>
>quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
You have now had the weaker side of your character pointed out
to you. The side that whines and quits when the teacher does not live
up to what the student feels is owed to him.
Your teacher did the right thing.
Think. Have you changed at all, on a personal level, since
the test? Has not passing made you less of a martial artist? Has it
depleted you in any way? Or, were you perhaps placing a bit too much
importance on the test?
Best Regards,
Pai Yili
Pai Lum Family Martial Arts
http://www.users.fast.net/~paiyili/
(See the Windows 3.1 Tips and Tweaks Section!)
Cal Beech
l.a. dehaan wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed...
>
>
Les,
I expect that you don't really want to give up on your martial art
otherwise you would have hung your head and silently walked away. I view
your situation as a turning point. You can take the path of least
resistance and quit, in which case your hard work and training will have
taught you little. The harder, but more rewarding path (IMHO) is to
redouble your efforts and achieve the goal you set for yourself as a
white belt. The decision to run from failure or to grow and learn from
it is one than can effect your success or failure in the years to come.
As an instructor, I have failed students taking their black belt tests.
Nine times out of ten the student knew the techniques well but performed
poorly on the test because they choked under pressure. In martial arts,
pressure is the name of the game. In these cases though the student was
given a week or so to regroup, was tested again, and usually passed with
flying colors. In general, instructors don't take failing their students
lightly. It reflects poorly on their teaching methods.
If it were me, I would approach my instructor and discuss my test
results. If you have put in the effort that you say you have, then you
certainly couldn't have flunked every part of your exam. Find those
areas where you are weak and work on them. I would then try to negotiate
a makeup test so I didn't have to wait until June.
As far as being able to face your peers and Sensei is concerned, the
issue is whether you can face yourself. If you run and hide, will your
Sensei and friends think more highly of you?
Failure is a natural part of success. The most powerful and successful
business people have usually tried and failed many times before they
achieve the success they are after. The difference between them and the
millions of losers that surround us is in the way they handle their
setbacks. I believe (others may argue this point) that winning is an
inevitable result of hard work and persistence.
If you face your dissapointment and embarassment, work hard on the
things that need improvement and take your test again, I believe that
you will succeed. Your fellow students will respect you for it as will
your Sensei. Most importantly though, you will be able to respect
yourself.
You will get over this. Time will see to that. The question is how will
it effect you? There is a fork in the road and only you can decide which
path to take.
Good Luck....CB
Don Wagner
In <32b2f96e...@news.iadfw.net> vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
(Richard H. Kim) writes:
>Whats wrong with Melrose Place?
>Weedhopper
It only has half the silicone of Bay Watch...
;-)
--Don--
Props
l.a. dehaan (lde...@julian.uwo.ca) wrote:
:!> Hi.
:!> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
:!>suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
:!>going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
:!>competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
:!>division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
:!>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
:!>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
:!> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
:!>both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
:!>it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
:!>quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
:!> Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, so after
:!>the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
:!>think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
:!> So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
:!>(May) and then quit. I'm only continuing because I didn't pay for it (it
:!>was a gift). Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
:!>doubt I will. I told my karate teacher that I have no intention of trying
:!>again, but he doesn't believe me. He still sees me as the person who loves
:!>karate, but she's gone. Going to the dojo is a chore now and I can't see
:!>how that can change.
:!> Anyway, my point is that no one understands. They all pat me on the head
:!>and tell me it'll be okay when I try again in June. If any one has any
:!>comments, suggestions or just understands, please e-mail me (as I rarely
:!>lurk here anymore).
:!> Thanks for listening (reading) if nothing else.
:!> Les
les,
i want to ask a few questions first. why did you fail? have you asked
your instructor why? i personally will never test soemone until i *know*
that they will pass, and i wonder why your instructor did differently.
another question-does it matter that much? all a belt is is a piece of
cloth used to keep your jacket closed and your pants up. i don't have a
black belt-never have never will. that's okay. i still train and teach
not because of my belt but because of the knowledge i have.
go back to the class. study more. find otu why you didn't pass and
improve. evryone fails on occasion, that doesn't make you a failure.
you shouldn't be ashamed to see everyone, for if you got as far as a brown
belt you obviously have great determination and some skill. don't give
up. failing is a part of life, but don't push martial arts out because
of "one bad night" or that your teacher tested you before you were ready.
email me at my address and we can talk. no matter what happens, don't
ever give up. perseverance is one of the greatest lessons you can ever
learn.
Props
--
Don Langguth, CmpE(why,God,why) I "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu I not the only one. I hope someday
Box 332126 Geogia Tech Station I you'll join us, and the world will
Atlanta, GA 30332 I be as one."-John Lennon, "Imagine"
Jennifer S. Ouellette
Les--
Your email failed to mention WHY you failed your test. Were you nervous
and hence didn't perform to your full capabilities? Or did the sensei who
recommended you take the test not make sure you were fully prepared to
pass it? Also, how old are you?
But the details ultimately aren't not what concerns me about your post;
it's your attitude I find disturbing. I don't want to be overly cruel
here -- it's disappointing to devote so much time and effort into
something and then be told you can't advance, I understand that -- but it
seems to me that you're placing far too much emphasis on getting that
piece of black cloth around your waist. Just because you didn't pass the
first time, does that mean all your training has been a waste of time?? I
doubt that very much, yet this seems to be what you are feeling. Who
cares if your younger brother and "all the other brown belts" passed and
you didn't? The MAs are about being the best YOU can be, not comparing
yourself to everyone else.
Furthermore, there is much more associated with the black belt than
mere mastery of the physical skills (as important as that is). If you are
going to be a sensei, you can't concern yourself with something so petty
as, "What are all the other students going to think?" Who cares? You will
be required to teach and lead them; you can't be worried about your
"image" and teach to your full potential. Being able to fail with grace
and dignity is the mark of true strength of character. Your senseis are
probably watching your reactions pretty closely to see how you will
respond. If you prove your determination and mettle by sucking it up and
approaching your training with renewed vigor, you will have learned one
of the most valuable lessons in life, never mind the MAs. After all, if
everyone quit the first time they failed at something, some of the
greatest inventions and achievements would never have been realized. And
realistically, if you were required to defend yourself from an attack,
would you quit if the first couple of things you tried didn't work, and
let your attacker beat/rape or possibly kill you?
A couple of other people have suggested you take some time off to recover
from "burn out". Given the attitude I picked up in your post, this is the
LAST thing you should do right now. If you quit now, you will NEVER go
back. Now is the time to fight your disappointment and lethargy; training
isn't always fun or enjoyable and it's the times when you don't really
feel like training but do so anyway that show true commitment.
There was a very talented brown belt female student in my dojo who failed
her first-grade brown belt test -- she suffered an asthma attack halfway
through and couldn't finish. She "took some time off" and has never
returned to full training, which is a pity. I would hate to see the same
thing happen to you. I encourage you to be strong and show your senseis
and your school what you are made of....
--Jennifer
Brad Webb
|>
|> Hi.
Hello. :)
|>
|> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
|> suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
|> going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
|> competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
|> division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
|> belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
|> short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
Sounds like you liked it alot.
Were you doing karate because you liked winning, and you liked the
appreciation that you got from others or were you doing karate
because you liked doing karate?? To continue into anything beyond
your current level you will need to think about that.
|>
|> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
|> both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
|> it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
|> quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
Sounds like the fox that said the grapes were sour, just because the
fox couldn't reach them. (An old Aesop's fable).
|>
|> Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, so after
|> the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
|> think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
Can't stand the pressure, eh?
Maybe then you haven't found the inside drive yet?
Or maybe you haven't found the "Courage" to stand up for yourself.
BTW I used "Courage" specificly because it does take courage to
continue a hard road.
|>
|> So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
If that's the only reason you're still there, then you should leave.
If you thought you cared about learning(about karate & yourself) then you
might want to stay. Like Pai said "You are now learning things".
Unlike others, I'm not going to assume anything about your Sensei.
I'm going to say this: "I never, NEVER, give up on anything worthwhile".
If it means something, then I'm going to keep going. Period.
So far in my life, my will and drive have never let me down. While I
have, on occasion, failed or screwed up, I have always been able to
find a way to acheive my goals(maybe later than I wanted, but so what).
Think about yourself, and don't let yourself down.
---BTW, the goal is learning and feeling good about yourself, not Blackbelt.
|> (May) and then quit. I'm only continuing because I didn't pay for it (it
|> was a gift). Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
|> doubt I will. I told my karate teacher that I have no intention of trying
|> again, but he doesn't believe me. He still sees me as the person who loves
|> karate, but she's gone. Going to the dojo is a chore now and I can't see
|> how that can change.
Maybe after a bit feeling down, one of the seniors in your dojo
will beat the snot out of you. It worked for me(one of the times I
started to let myself feel beaten), and I have had the PRIVILEDGE of
helping out several persons who failed their black belts with the same
type of thing. It's actually wonderful to see that persons eyes light
up with anger and desire and the realization that they aren't gonna die.
That's when you're learning and growing.
|>
|> Anyway, my point is that no one understands. They all pat me on the head
|> and tell me it'll be okay when I try again in June. If any one has any
|> comments, suggestions or just understands, please e-mail me (as I rarely
|> lurk here anymore).
Patting ???
That's what my sensei did to get me mad at him after I failed once.
After a few pats(Heh heh heh) he asked me if I was going to quit karate.
My answer was "NO".
His response was: "Then stop feeling sorry for yourself, and start working".
Strange, that's exactly what I asked Tuan after he and I had a
PRIVILEDGED type of session. He failed 4 months before, and was
un-interested in going to his re-test the next month. He survived
our session, and he passed. It's kinda wierd that I realize that now.
Maybe that's what you need to do,
Stop feeling sorry for yourself, and start working.
|>
|> Thanks for listening (reading) if nothing else.
|>
|> Les
No problem.
Good Luck,
Brad.
--
Brad Webb, HEY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS -->> bwe...@airmail.net
or reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (wrchh187 bounces)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Japan Shotokan Karate, Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.
Richard H. Kim
In the Year of Our Lord 13 Dec 1996 15:01:38 GMT, the Heathen
dawa...@ix.netcom.com(Don Wagner ) wrote:
Man, hasn't anyone told you its, STYLE, not substance. The MP women have it all
over Baywatch.
Constantin Aliferis
l.a. dehaan wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed.
Could you clarify for me:
a) Why did you think you failed the test, and what was the
official (teacher's) explanation?
b) How old are you and for how long have you been training?
Constantin
Peter C. Everett
l.a. dehaan (lde...@julian.uwo.ca) wrote:
: About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
: suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
: going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
: competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
: division.
: I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
: belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
: short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
Some questions need to be asked:
1) What were you told was the reason you did not pass?
2) Are those reasons things that you can change?
3) Do you want to change them?
3) Did your instructor tell you beforehand that your regular performance
in class was good enough to pass?
4) Karate can be a wonderful enhancement to your life, but your
statement "karate was my life" seems disproportionate. Isn't the
main benefit of karate that it enhances your life *outside* the dojo?
5) In *your* opinion, did you perform your best at your test?
6) It is not beyond some instructors to fail a student whose
physical performance is up to standards, but who they think is
badly in need of a dose of humility. Is that the case here?
The "real" test may be whether or not you choose to persevere
after this setback.
Keep in mind the difference between unsuccessful and successful people:
Unsuccessful people fail once or twice.
Successful people fail over and over and over again.
Keep us posted.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
Don Wagner
In <32b28d1f...@news.iadfw.net> vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
(Richard H. Kim) writes:
>
>In the Year of Our Lord 13 Dec 1996 15:01:38 GMT, the Heathen
>dawa...@ix.netcom.com(Don Wagner ) wrote:
>
>>In <32b2f96e...@news.iadfw.net> vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>>(Richard H. Kim) writes:
>>
>>>Whats wrong with Melrose Place?
>>>Weedhopper
>>It only has half the silicone of Bay Watch...
>>;-)
>>--Don--
>Man, hasn't anyone told you its, STYLE, not substance. The MP women
>have it all over Baywatch.
>
>Weedhopper
5 words...
Pamela running on the beach
;-)
--Don--
SumDumGuy
l.a. dehaan wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed.
>Which, I
> suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it.
What? You never failed before?
>I was an avid student,
>going to every class I could, always schedualing other things
>around it. I
>competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in
>my
>division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a
>white
>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a
>kata. In
>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the
>test and
>both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my
>hardest because
>it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem
>like
> quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it
>anymore.
Maybe you oughta take a real good look at yourself. You didn't like
failing and feel embarassed to be around your fellow students. Quit
feeling sorry for yourself.
>Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, >so after
>the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I
>don't
>think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
>So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is
>up
>(May) and then quit. I'm only continuing because I didn't pay for
>it (it
> was a gift).
Quitter. Afraid to try again. You gonna break up with boyfriend
because he was mean to you one day?
>Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
>doubt I will.
Because they're your friends.
>I told my karate teacher that I have no intention >of trying
>again, but he doesn't believe me.
He can't believe that you're being a baby.
>He still sees me as the person >who loves
>karate, but she's gone.
She's gone if you let her go.
>Going to the dojo is a chore now and I >can't see
>how that can change.
Only you can change it.
>Anyway, my point is that no one understands. They all pat me on
>the head
> and tell me it'll be okay when I try again in June. If any one
>has any
>comments, suggestions or just understands, please e-mail me (as I rarely
>lurk here anymore).
>
>Thanks for listening (reading) if nothing else.
>
>Les
You ever think that your teacher failed you just to see how you'd
react? Maybe he had a feeling you weren't up to snuff mentally. You
want to prove him right? If I were you I'd get mad and prove him
wrong. Take the damned test!
Guadalupo Guadelupe
vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Richard H. Kim) wrote:
->In the Year of Our Lord 13 Dec 1996 15:01:38 GMT, the Heathen
->dawa...@ix.netcom.com(Don Wagner ) wrote:
->
->>In <32b2f96e...@news.iadfw.net> vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
->>(Richard H. Kim) writes:
->>
->>>Whats wrong with Melrose Place?
->>>Weedhopper
->>
->>It only has half the silicone of Bay Watch...
->>;-)
->>--Don--
->>
->Man, hasn't anyone told you its, STYLE, not substance. The MP women have it
-all
->over Baywatch.
The problem with Melrose Place is that Brendan, Kelly, Brenda and what's their
name are playing High school kids when they are like in their 30's!
And they don't show any nakedness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Baywatch is about class, insight, and the struggle of the human spirit. The
triumph over all odds. The struggle of mankind against the ocean!
Gordon Stoll
In article <58pk4b$7...@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> "l.a. dehaan" <lde...@julian.uwo.ca> writes:
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
>going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
>competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
>division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>
> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
>both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
>it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
>quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
>
>the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
>think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
>
>
> Thanks for listening (reading) if nothing else.
>
> Les
>
Don't you dare quit! Learn to leave your ego and your emotions behind.
Weight training was what did it for me. When you walk into a gym for
the first time at 5'10" and a weak 145#, you just have to deal with it.
You walk right up to a bench and say "can I work in?" to Adonis, who has
just finished a set on it. You ask him to spot for you, and he helps
you pull off three-quarters of the plates. And when you do your set,
you put every ounce of yourself into it. You grunt, strain, bug your
eyes out, and train to failure. Absolute failure. Every set, every
workout, week in and week out you fail in front of anyone who cares to
watch. Every week you are *pathetic*. But every week you are *better*.
In 10 months I have gone from 145 to 168 while *losing* an inch on my waist
and more than doubling my training weight on every exercise I can name. But
none of that holds a candle to what I've learned about training. Ego and
emotion are your most insidious enemies. They keep you from understanding
that failure is your guide and motivation in training. How can you call
anything "success" if you never fail at anything? I cruised through
everything I ever tried for 20+ years (and never tried anything I couldn't
cruise through).
I can't know everything about you and your situation, but my best guess
is that if you don't push yourself past this you will regret it for the
rest of your life.
Gordon Stoll
g...@graphics.stanford.edu
Don Geddis
On 13 Dec 1996 22:50:03 GMT, Guadalupo Guadelupe <Aq...@telemundo.org> wrote:
>The problem with Melrose Place is that Brendan, Kelly, Brenda and what's their
>name
Sorry, you're mixing up your trashy prime-time soaps. "Beverly Hills 90210"
was the original, with Brandon, Kelly, Brenda, etc. "Melrose Place" is a
spinoff with a difference cast of characters (including Heather Locklear).
>are playing High school kids when they are like in their 30's!
>And they don't show any nakedness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When the show started (8 years ago?) they were all playing high school
freshmen. But they've been aging in real time. They're all about to graduate
from college ("California University") now. So they're not too far off their
real ages.
Not that I watch the show, of course...
-- Don
--
Don Geddis ged...@tesserae.com
Tesserae Information Systems http://tesserae.com/
431 Burgess Drive, Menlo Park, CA 94025 (415) 328-4774
Monique Y. Herman
On 13 Dec 1996, Guadalupo Guadelupe wrote:
> The problem with Melrose Place is that Brendan, Kelly, Brenda and what's their
> name are playing High school kids when they are like in their 30's!
> And they don't show any nakedness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know that I want to see either people who are supposed to be hs
kids or people past their 30s naked on tv ........ especially the icky
boys on that show.
> Baywatch is about class, insight, and the struggle of the human spirit. The
> triumph over all odds. The struggle of mankind against the ocean!
The triumph of breasts against gravity?
*********************
Monique Y. Herman
myh...@cs.wm.edu
www.cs.wm.edu/~myherm
*********************
Bruce Gonzalez
First off, what disciplines are accepted here?
Second, my story, I was only about 11.. I was a red/black belt in Tae
Kwon Do. To make a long story short I didn't answer a question
correctly and the judges didn't lik eit very much. SO I trained for
another 6 monthes... And I tried again and past. SO for the post about
the person who flunked and won't continue, I say, keep trying. I did.
It paid off.
Don Wagner
In <58smir$e...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Guadalupo Guadelupe
<Aq...@telemundo.org> writes:
[snip]
>The problem with Melrose Place is that Brendan, Kelly, Brenda and
>what's their name are playing High school kids when they are like in
>their 30's! And they don't show any
>nakedness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats "90210", not MP. MP is about sleeping with the pool guy as often
as possible... ;-)
>Baywatch is about class, insight, and the struggle of the human
>spirit. The triumph over all odds. The struggle of mankind against the
>ocean!
Maybe a constant struggle and truimph over gravity at least...
;-)
--Don--
Sorin Lemnariu
Hey, cheer up! It is not the end of the world! Train harder and learn from
mistakes. Think at this:
At one of his seminars Okazaki sensei told us how he failed at his Shodan
test for bad attitude. Look where he is today!
Sunny
"You have only one chance to die, you have to die proud!"
In article <58pk4b$7...@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca>, lde...@julian.uwo.ca says...
>
>
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
>suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
>going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
>competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
>division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
>belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
>short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>
> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
>both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
>it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
>quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
>
> Every other brown belt, including my younger brother, passed, so after
>the black belt presentation the difference will be marked and I don't
>think I'll be able to face them, the lower kyu belts or Sensei.
>
> So far, I've decided to contine 'til the term that's paid for is up
>(May) and then quit. I'm only continuing because I didn't pay for it (it
>was a gift). Everyone wants/expects me to try for it again in June but I
>doubt I will. I told my karate teacher that I have no intention of trying
>again, but he doesn't believe me. He still sees me as the person who loves
>karate, but she's gone. Going to the dojo is a chore now and I can't see
>how that can change.
>
> Anyway, my point is that no one understands. They all pat me on the head
>and tell me it'll be okay when I try again in June. If any one has any
>comments, suggestions or just understands, please e-mail me (as I rarely
>lurk here anymore).
>
Stephen Horgan
> Hi.
>
> About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed. Which, I
> suppose is normal, but I just can't get over it. I was an avid student,
> going to every class I could, always schedualing other things around it. I
> competed in tournaments, often pulling off a first or second in my
> division. I also taught an awful lot from the first punches of a white
> belt to reminding a fellow brown belts of the next move in a kata. In
> short, karate was my life and I always did my best in it.
>
> Now I don't care about it. I've only been back twice since the test and
> both times I hated it. It was so hollow. I couldn't try my hardest because
> it obviously wasn't good enough and not trying at all would seem like
> quitting. But that's what I'm doing. Quitting. I can't take it anymore.
>
A friend of mine is a professional security man. He holds Dan grades
in Judo and Karate and he has been teaching and training in the
martial arts for 20 years. A few years ago he took his Jujitsu Shodan
exam and failed. Here was a man who had more practical fighting
experience then most of the senior grades examining him and who had
been a black belt instructor for years and now here he was publicly
failing to make the grade.
What did he do?
He knuckled down and trained and then he took the examination again
and passed, that's what he did, and that is what you should do.
Find out why you failed and fix it. You've taken a knock and now you
have a choice; you can either accept defeat or stand and fight. It's
time to find out whether you leaned anything in the dojo.
--
Stephen Horgan, Basildon, Essex, England
"intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence"
Vandit Kalia
While completely naked, Don Wagner (dawa...@ix.netcom.com) mimed:
: Pamela running on the beach
*drool*
Vandit, who wasnt even following this thread
--
========================================================================
Vandit Kalia, now webbed at http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~vkalia/home.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured, the
first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all
irrevocably"
A. J.
> lde...@julian.uwo.ca says...
>
About three weeks ago, I went for my black belt and failed.
> >
That's really rough, and we are sorry. But not knowing what your
school's criteria are, unfortunately simply coming to classes and
training hard does not necessarily always guarantee what his school
envisions a black belt to be. Perhaps there are mental, spiritual,
understanding, attitude, or character requisites they are keeping in
mind about which we on the list don't know, or apparently your club does
not invite people to test only after it is clear you have been qualified
to pass with certainty for a while. Either way, if only one thing
lacking can be gleaned from your letter, it is in how you feel now.
Your present loss of heart is perhaps not surprising, but think how
person eventually worthy of black belt will persevere in a situation
like yours. I hope you soon take a breath, shake your arms and neck a
little, then go back to class where not just the other students and
instructors but you yourself will see that you are doing so and know
that it evidences the kind of character one wants to develop for the
responsibility of black belt ranking. I really wish you good luck, and
courage! (Everybody else chime in, help support) In class, just think
about how what you do can be improved and is improving, and how even if
you planned to do something else after black belt, it's only a beginning
at a new level after you have aquired what you need to proceed from
there.
--A. J.
Michael Chock
Stephen Horgan wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:16:13 -0800, Michael Chock
> <mi...@softwarezone.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi.
No I didn't. But the the person I responded to did.
- Mike
Another blatant plug for:
The Software Zone Games Pages
http://www.softwarezone.com/
kathryn
Dear Les
How much determination and courage has it taken you to get as far as you
have?
A lot I bet.
To go back will be hard. It will take probably more courage and humility
than just about anything there is. It is really the extreme test of
dedication.
You can do it though, if you have got this far.
People don't always pass rank tests the first time they attempt them.
Of these a lot do not come back to class. Some couragously do, and let
me tell you, everyone has the utmost respect for them.
Just before my grading I was talking to a fellow candidate about what we
would do if we did not pass. We both agreed that coming back and
continuing in spite of it all would be the bravest thing of all to do,
and neither of us could say for certain whether we would be able to.
Part of MA is humility. You have to be humble to be a good martial
artist, and you are a good martial artist, so you can go back to class.
You never know, maybe your Sensei even has this in mind! Talk to the
Sensei. Let them know how you feel. To get to be Sensei you would have
to develop a fair amount of awareness and understanding, they will
listen.
Please don't quit. It has cost you so much and has given you so much
back.
You can do it.
Take care (and let us know how you go)
Kathryn
Guadalupo Guadelupe
dawa...@ix.netcom.com(Don Wagner ) wrote:
->In <32b28d1f...@news.iadfw.net> vari...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
->(Richard H. Kim) writes:
->
->>
->>Weedhopper
->
->5 words...
->Pamela running on the beach
She makes a great couple....................huh..huh.
->
->;-)
->--Don--
Chili71298
Get a Century Martial Arts Catalog and buy a black belt for about $8.00.
Then you will have your highly coveted black belt. Or if you think $8.00
is too much, just go get a black piece of cloth and tie it around your
waist... Then you will be a "black belt".
It takes more than a simple piece of cloth or the approval of others to
make you a true martial artist.
If you give up, you were never a martial artist to begin with. The true
mark of a martial artist is to be able to face adversity and turn it to
power.
Guadalupo Guadelupe
chili...@aol.com (Chili71298) wrote:
->Get a Century Martial Arts Catalog and buy a black belt for about $8.00.
->Then you will have your highly coveted black belt. Or if you think $8.00
->is too much, just go get a black piece of cloth and tie it around your
->waist... Then you will be a "black belt".
All this talk on Blackbelt shows that BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR TO WHITE
PEOPLE!!! Now remember that!!!!!!!!!
->
->It takes more than a simple piece of cloth or the approval of others to
->make you a true martial artist.
->
->The true
->mark of a martial artist is to be able to face adversity and turn it to
->power.
->
Got that right!! The true martial artists will never forget his offenders!!!!
Now remember each one of their faces and when you are ready, hunt them down
like animals!!!! Kick the shit out of each and every single one of them!!!
Remember the movie 'Ninja III - the domination?' The ninja remembered every
single one of the cops who shoot and killed him. Upon returning from his death,
he killed every single one of them!!!!!! That's the martial way!!!!!
Here is the best way to do it! First you beat them til they cry. Then you beat
then some more TIL they stop crying and start to wimper!!!!! Then you beat them
some more til the don't even have energy to wimper but just have a painful
blank stare out of their eyes! This is the state you want to achieve!!!!!!!!
Look into their eyes and you can see how frightened they are!!! Look carefully
into those eyes and you can almost see clips and scenes of their whole lifes
flashing back.
That's the state when an animal's physiological state is in so much stress that
neurotransmitters fire off left and right. That's the common perfect state when
a being finally realize it's moments before it's total shut down that every
single chemical is firing off within it's body. And you will know when, even
with the huge amount of perspiration coming and the being not yet dead, the
body is in fact very cold. THAT'S THE STATE YOU WANT YOUR ADVERSARIES TO GET
WHEN YOU REVENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Props
Guadalupo Guadelupe (Aq...@telemundo.org) wrote:
les, i apologize for this person's behavior. don't give up. we're all
telling you that you must go on. some people may be rougher about it than
others, but they are right. if you ever wish to be an artist, let alone a
master, you must persevere and go on.
Props
--
Don Langguth, CmpE(why,God,why) I "It's the end of the world as
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu I we know it, and i feel fine."
Box 332126 Georgia Tech Station I -R.E.M. "End of the World"
Atlanta, GA 30332 I
Kathryn Goldie
Get a life cantelope
NinjaWix
I think that all these replies we've seen are indicative of all the
different sorts of people in the martial arts; the more experienced and
wiser students (and don't say we're not all students) who give their
advice, the people who've been there before, and of course, the pain in
the butt loudmouths that have some interesting things to say but aren't
intelligent enough to say them properly. I've seen a few friends of mine
not pass their black belt tests, and when they come back for the next
session, they always seem a little hollow, less motivated. It comes back
to them eventually, but the initial disappoitment is quite painful for
them.
On the whole, everyone's been saying if you want it enough, you can go
back and damn well do it, and if you're not, then quit and that'll be the
end of it. I suppose it's your decision really, but why did you start
Karate? Was it self-defence, to build confidence, to keep fit? There are
many goals that can be achieved through the martial arts, and you may find
that you have already achieved them.
Good luck
_______________
/\
< o > NinjaWix
\/______________
PSYCHOMOUS
What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
for which the student is ill-prepared?
Richard H. Kim
In the year of Our Lord, 26 Dec 1996 13:32:22 GMT, the Heathen psych...@aol.com
(PSYCHOMOUS) wrote:
>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
>for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
Why call it a test if there is no possibility of failure?
Weedhopper, at home and happy!
The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire
is incoming friendly fire.
- Murphy's Laws of Combat #6
Joseph Isbell
PSYCHOMOUS wrote:
> What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt > > > test for which the student is ill-prepared?
I don't recall which part of the test the gentleman had problems with,
but a test for Black Belt should never be a sure thing.
In the ATA Our Black Belt Test consists of 3 parts:
1. Forms (Current and some lower belt).
2. Sparring Matches.
3. Board Breaking.
I can tell you that at Black Belt Level, if the student does not pass..
99% of the time it's because of the board break. Forms and Sparring are
subjective, at least a little bit. But with boards, either you break or
you do not. In the ATA you get 3 attempts to break your stations. If
you do not, you receive a NO CHANGE (Aka, you do not pass).
Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
of 4 break options. These are the only 4 options that may be used to
Rank Testing for a particular belt. These options are usually 2 or 3
stations.
Joe
PS: In case you wondering, 5th Degree Black Belts and above submit
their break ideas to ATA HQ for approval.
m_peckha@husky1.stmarys.ca@husky1.stmarys.ca
In <19961226133...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, psych...@aol.com (PSYCHOMOUS) writes:
>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
>for which the student is ill-prepared?
There are times when a student is prepared and the fails the test due to the
lack of mental preparation for the test itself. I have failed people for this in
the past and have therefore changed my testing so that they don't know
they are testing, less stress. (i havent tested for black belt level)
Yours In The Martial Arts
Mike Peckham
m_peckha@husky1.stmarys.ca@husky1.stmarys.ca
In <E3145...@nonexistent.com>, Joseph Isbell <ke...@unix.asb.com> writes:
>PSYCHOMOUS wrote:
>
>> What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt > > > test for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
>but a test for Black Belt should never be a sure thing.
>
>In the ATA Our Black Belt Test consists of 3 parts:
>
>1. Forms (Current and some lower belt).
>2. Sparring Matches.
>3. Board Breaking.
>
>I can tell you that at Black Belt Level, if the student does not pass..
>99% of the time it's because of the board break. Forms and Sparring are
>subjective, at least a little bit. But with boards, either you break or
>you do not. In the ATA you get 3 attempts to break your stations. If
>you do not, you receive a NO CHANGE (Aka, you do not pass).
>
>Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
>of 4 break options. These are the only 4 options that may be used to
>Rank Testing for a particular belt. These options are usually 2 or 3
>stations.
>
>Joe
>PS: In case you wondering, 5th Degree Black Belts and above submit
>their break ideas to ATA HQ for approval.
We do not do board breaking in our tests, what function does this serve?
What function does sparring serve, anyone could fluke a win and lose a\
test for someone?
Pablo
PSYCHOMOUS <psych...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19961226133...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
My a*shole ex tae-known-do instructor. I went for a month constantly and
worked my butt off preparing for the test. I did about 6 to 8 rounds in a
row just like I was supposed to in the sparring check. Not only was I
doing good, I was kicking the owner's wife ass in the last round. I hit
her with hard right hands even though I was dead tired. She hit me with a
ridge-hand to the head that jammed her thumb. Then she complained that I
blasted her, that's not what tae-kwon-do is all about. B.S. -- is it about
getting your butt kicked or getting a broken hand. To make a long story
short (too late) I took the pre-test and did preety good. Then the prick
owner told me that I wasn't ready to be a black belt, that I should wait,
that I should be ready mentally. I'm never going back there again, I'll
keep my brown belt. To me a black-belt from some money-hungry owner who
just cares about his business means about as much as no belt at all. In
other words, it's not what belt you are, it's how hard you hit and how many
techniques you have. And that's my two-cents worth of opinion.
Pablo
Pablo
Pablo
m_pe...@husky1.stmarys.ca@husky1.stmarys.ca wrote in article
<5a1stf$cu5$1...@thor.atcon.com>...
> Yours In The Martial Arts
> Mike Peckham
What do you mean by lack of mental preparation? What kind of mental
preparation are you talking about?
Pablo
Douglas H Thamm
i
I come from a system (Chinese) where I have never seen ANYONE fail a
test. Although probably only 1 tests in 20 does a person perform in such
a way as to warrant failure in my book (they are usually excessively
over-prepared so they can go thru the tests in their sleep), I do have a
problem with this aspect of my system. If there is no risk of failure
then what is one's impetus to excel? Furthermore, what message are we
conveying when a sub-standard performance can still end up in promotion?
Sorry, these are just my bellyachings about my own system's
shortcomings...
-Doug
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| A student asked his master, "Master, what is the Way?" |
| The master slapped the student, and the student went away |
| enlightened. |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Douglas H. Thamm, VMD | Resident, Medical Oncology |
| tha...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu | School of Veterinary Medicine |
| dth...@dolphin.upenn.edu | University of Wisconsin-Madison |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jennifer S. Ouellette
Far be it from me to question your version of events -- well, I guess I
AM kind of questioning them, but never mind. Obviously there are many TKD
and other MA schools more interested in making money off of ranks than
promoting, but it seems to me you were PHYSICALLY well prepared to take
the test. But I pick up quite a lot of bitterness and a hint of arrogance
in your message -- along with your strong emphasis on "how hard you hit
and how many techniques you have", and the fact that you quit the minute
you couldn't get your way (i.e., a black belt) -- that kind of makes me
agree with your instructor that perhaps you weren't prepared mentally to
be a black belt. As has been discussed at length in this thread, the
black belt generally means a lot more than whose butt you can kick, how
hard you hit, or how many techniques you know; it also has a lot to do
with attitude, wisdom and maturity. Rather than being a money-grubbing
owner, your instructor strikes me as a rather wise man; he didn't feel
comfortable awarding a black belt rank to someone whose main focus was
on solely on the physical aspects. When he spoke of working on your
mental preparation, it sounds to me like he was talking about your
overall attitude towards the art and/or fellow MAers.
Before you get all ticked off at me, bear in mind that I'm simply
offering a different interpretation of what occurred as food for
thought, based on your own words. Regardless of where the "truth" of the
matter lies, I hope you can put your anger bitterness behind you. Because
you are quite right -- ultimately the black belt is just a piece of
cloth. The man you are is what it represents.
--Jennifer
Heidi Hough
In article <01bbf4d4$1f40b8c0$2da920cc@#danny51.ix.netcom.com>, "Pablo "
<dan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Well, there ARE people who are so nervous that they completely blank out
when asked to do a technique or just called up for the test. Maybe
something like that is what he's referring to.
- HJH
Aikidoka
--
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\
"That man is richest whose pleasures are cheapest"
-Thoreau o
.. o o
$/\$ (o)< o
$$\/$$ (o)<
$$$++$$$ |/ "When choosing between two evils, I always
/()()\_/ like to take the one I've never tried before."
\ )( - Mae West
/(())
\9/ "The Whole earth is in jail and we're
\| _______ plotting this incredible jailbreak."
/ \ |\989898\ -Wavy Gravy
/_^_\ ||~~~~~~|
\|______|
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\
Pablo
>But I pick up quite a lot of bitterness and a hint of arrogance
> in your message -- along with your strong emphasis on "how hard you hit
> and how many techniques you have", and the fact that you quit the minute
> you couldn't get your way (i.e., a black belt) -- that kind of makes me
> agree with your instructor that perhaps you weren't prepared mentally to
> be a black belt. As has been discussed at length in this thread, the
> black belt generally means a lot more than whose butt you can kick, how
> hard you hit, or how many techniques you know; it also has a lot to do
> with attitude, wisdom and maturity.
have to be very important. I saw many people throw up, cry, and try to
quit during their test. They seemed like a bunch of wimps. I still can't
understand why they said that my attitude impaired my ability to get a
black belt. I'm doing a martial arts test, not a psychoanalysis. If I can
do good in sparring and fair well in the rest, I do believe I'm ready. I
also didn't just quit, at least not my first time. I took my first
pre-test and they gave me a whole bunch of BS about how it would be better
to wait. The other guys who tested were wimps. I whooped one of the guys
who passed the test many times with ease. Well, I took a couple of months
off just to see if I could stop my hate toward the owners. Then I went
back. They didn't help me out at all in the things that they said I was
doing wrong. In fact, they ignored me until I confronted them about my
readiness for the test. The owner gave me BS. So I got out of that
whorthless dojo and I never went back. As far as I'm concerned, they can
go to hell. They seem to be prejudice against some people and give them a
whole bunch of BS about promoting them. Other guys with no tecniques and
who only slap in sparring are promoted just for showing up.
>Rather than being a money-grubbing
> owner, your instructor strikes me as a rather wise man; he didn't feel
> comfortable awarding a black belt rank to someone whose main focus was
> on solely on the physical aspects. When he spoke of working on your
> mental preparation, it sounds to me like he was talking about your
> overall attitude towards the art and/or fellow MAers.
He used to be wise before he moved his dojo to a bigger building. Then he
let his BS go into his head. He forgot about teaching and became more
interested in taking money. I know I'll never give him another red cent
again. As far as my attitude, well let's just say that his erraneous
actions didn't help it.
>
> Before you get all ticked off at me, bear in mind that I'm simply
> offering a different interpretation of what occurred as food for
> thought, based on your own words.
Hey I'm not ticked off. It was nice that you took the time to give me your
opinion. It's nice to hear from other people's perspective.
Regardless of where the "truth" of the
> matter lies, I hope you can put your anger bitterness behind you. Because
> you are quite right -- ultimately the black belt is just a piece of
> cloth. The man you are is what it represents.
Well said! Now I'm going to go to a different dojo to practice a different
art, probably jujitsu. As far as I'm concerned, it's what you know -- not
the color of your belt.
> --Jennifer
Pablo
AJL
> We do not do board breaking in our tests, what function does this serve?
> What function does sparring serve, anyone could fluke a win and lose a\
> test for someone?
Well, board breaking can demonstrate how much tkd the student is able to
apply-- a certain amount of power, accuracy, speed etc. is required to
break x number of boards.
A sparring demonstration can also show a lot about the student, even if
it is not win/lose.
Heidi Hough
> > We do not do board breaking in our tests, what function does this serve?
> > What function does sparring serve, anyone could fluke a win and lose a\
> > test for someone?
>
>
> Well, board breaking can demonstrate how much tkd the student is able to
> apply-- a certain amount of power, accuracy, speed etc. is required to
> break x number of boards.
To quote the movie 'The Next Karate Kid': "What did boards do to you?"
>
> A sparring demonstration can also show a lot about the student, even if
> it is not win/lose.
True, definitely.
- Heidi
SumDumGuy
AJL wrote:
>
> > We do not do board breaking in our tests, what function does this serve?
> > What function does sparring serve, anyone could fluke a win and lose a\
> > test for someone?
> Well, board breaking can demonstrate how much tkd the
>student is able to
> apply-- a certain amount of power, accuracy, speed etc. is
>required to
> break x number of boards.
It also tests your fear. It tests your mental fortitude (or is
that intestinal fortitude?).
> A sparring demonstration can also show a lot about the
>student, even if
> it is not win/lose.
They want to see if you will blow it or you will suck it in
and defend yourself. Sometimes they'll tell your opponent
'street fight' which means do anything they want.
AJL
Heidi Hough wrote:
>
> To quote the movie 'The Next Karate Kid': "What did boards do to you?"
>
Nothing at all, trees are nice, but x boards generally can equal what
type of bone in your mugger's body; and if a student does not have
enough accuracy or focus to hit a group of boards in the right place to
break them, he is going to need some luck in a self-defense situation.
Mikoturos
Heidi Hough wrote:
>
> In article <32C8CB...@basistech.com>, a...@basistech.com wrote:
>
> > > We do not do board breaking in our tests, what function does this serve?
> > > What function does sparring serve, anyone could fluke a win and lose a\
> > > test for someone?
> >
> >
> > Well, board breaking can demonstrate how much tkd the student is able to
> > apply-- a certain amount of power, accuracy, speed etc. is required to
> > break x number of boards.
>
>
> >
> > it is not win/lose.
>
>
> - Heidi
If done correctly (or under a certain set of circumstances;
right/wrong-good/evil have little to do with this situation) the
Breaking and the Sparring can be utilized in a test (at any level, but
particularly at the Shodan test because it's considered to be a BIG
transition) to demonstrate the practitioner's range of abilities. At
the shodan level in particular, the practitioner's abilities are
supposed to be particularly
high at both ends (and it is therefor assumed that the whole range in
the middle is correspondingly well-developed).
The Breaking test is a demonstration of power, accuracy, speed (as ajl
noted) and, in particular, FOCUS--how deep you drive a punch through the
surface of an object. Similar to beginning fencers batting at each
other's foils, beginning karateka will often focus their techniques at
the surface of their target or even on the outstretched limbs of their
opponent(s). The ability to drive through a board shows that you can
drive into an opponent's body in order to rupture important organs. The
ability to drive through several boards shows you can drive through an
opponent's rib cage and into the organs--or that you can drive through
the built-up layers of muscle and bone. The problem is that those
boards are very conveniently held stationary for you (how many opponents
of any degree of intelligence will do that?) and, to quote my idol from
Enter the Dragon, "Bo-aaadzz.....don' fie-baaa" (Translation: Boards
don't fight back)
And besides, Ahhhnold can punch through several layers of tile and
assorted masonry with ease--particularly when he's in his Terminator
costume and that titanium alloy skeleton protects his real bones....
More to the point, if you're a tough-boned, muscle-bound brute (like my
sister) you can swing your arm (or leg) and plow through bones, boards,
windows, tile, bricks, ice blocks, and IRS audits without any training
at all (which is why it's so much more impressive when we scrawny Asians
do it and not so amazing when Akebono [19 million timies All-Japan Sumo
Champion] does it on accident). Being able to break a stack of boards
could just possibly be a fluke (or a eugenic augmentation).
Therefore, sparring is often included in the shodan test.
BTW: IMNSHO, If the shodan test is the first time you ever spar,
something is seriously wrong with the school.
Sparring, particularly no-contact or light-contact sparring, shows that
you can interact with an opponent and maintain enough control over your
hands, feet, arms, knees, elbows, torso, head, MIND and EMOTIONS to
leave your opponent un-bruised at the end. If done properly, it also
shows you can recognize and acknowledge a technique that is done well
without an opponent having to "prove it" to you by leaving a bruise (or
worse). Of course we always hope our opponent is as good at recognizing
good techniques as you are--if not better.
Breaking tests show that you can drive through resistance when
necessary. Sparring will demonstrate that the breaking was not just a
fluke or uncontrolled pile-driver, but a well executed technique that
you are able to repeat with complete control.
--
Cobra
Post all replies to the NET!
There's no response that you could send me that I wouldn't
want to share with my closest 19 trillion cyber-friends!
sami...@bix.com
on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
a black belt test:
>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
>for which the student is ill-prepared?
I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
Scott A. Miller
Tang Soo!
sami...@bix.com
time & traffic minimization courtesy of Galahad
sami...@bix.com
on Thu, 26 Dec 1996 Joseph Isbell of wrote this re: failing a black belt test:
>Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
>of 4 break options
Just out of curiosity, how many boards need be broken?
New Sage
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
>
> on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
> a black belt test:
> >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> >for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
> I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
> similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
> ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
> that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
>
Simple.. It is called "making a buck"
New Sage
Props
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
a black belt test:
>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
>for which the student is ill-prepared?
I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
well, why are you testing, to see if they can pass or *prove* that they
can pass. my last studio didi not test until the instructor was sure you
were ready, but you woudl fail if you had a really bad day.
the other reason for waiting is it is very disheartening to fail a belt
test(especially a black or brown), and it is often very expensive. my
instructor only charged $50 fro a black belt test, but i've known schools
to charge in the hundreds. can an instructor ethically test, fail, and
take your money, knowing you would not pass?
Props
--
Don Langguth, CmpE(why,God,why) I "We are such stuff as dreams are
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu I made on; and our little lives are
Box 332126 Georgia Tech Station I but rounded with a sleep."
Atlanta, GA 30332 I -Prospero, "The Tempest"
donna...@email.fpl.com
In article <5b2rpa$l...@news2.delphi.com>,
<sami...@BIX.com> wrote:
>
> on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
> a black belt test:
> >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> >for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
> I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
> similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
> ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
> that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
At our dojo (aikido) there are no competitions, tournaments to demonstrate ones
skills. Our sensei maintains that testing is your time to "show off" since it
is usually held in front of several dojos (like at a seminar). Obviously, he
doesn't want to put anyone up for testing that is going to make him or our dojo
look bad....and in addition, he doesn't want you to look bad. So, if you are
not already working at the rank that you are testing for, he will not put you up
for the rank. Besides, who wants to test until you are sure you are ready? The
best feeling in the world is to have people come up to you after your test and
say "wow, that was a great test"....likewise, it is a bad feeling to pass
knowing that you barely squeeked by (I feel that my first test was like that
and I swore that I would never feel that way again - and I haven't!).
DG
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
AJL
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
>
> on Thu, 26 Dec 1996 Joseph Isbell of wrote this re: failing a black belt test:
> >Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
> >of 4 break options
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many boards need be broken?
>
I'm curious too, to hear this. For the WTA (note, not WTF, not ITA- !
:) ), it goes up for each new dan level-- for first dan, in my home club
it's 3" each with two hand and two foot; in some it's 4" for men 3" for
women; in some western clubs you have to pick the technique out of a
hat; in some it's just 3" one way. I lose track but later tests have
people required to break with both left and right hands and feet,
four/five boards etc. Someone can specify this better than I...
Joseph Isbell
> >Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
> >of 4 break options
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many boards need be broken?
Scott, for adult males, two 12" x 12" x 3/4" pine. AT 3rd dan and above
the side kicks need to be done with 3 boards I believe.
It's a moot point now since the ATA is asking all schools to switch to
rebreakable boards. We will be doing this at our school to comply with
our Grandmasters request.
Joe
Brad Webb
In article <5b37mh$f...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt2...@acmey.gatech.edu (Props) writes:
|> sami...@BIX.com wrote:
|> a black belt test:
|> >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
|> >for which the student is ill-prepared?
|>
|> I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
|> similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
|> ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
|> that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
|>
|> can pass. my last studio didi not test until the instructor was sure you
|> were ready, but you woudl fail if you had a really bad day.
|>
|> the other reason for waiting is it is very disheartening to fail a belt
|> test(especially a black or brown), and it is often very expensive. my
|> instructor only charged $50 fro a black belt test, but i've known schools
|> to charge in the hundreds. can an instructor ethically test, fail, and
|> take your money, knowing you would not pass?
|>
|> Props
|> --
|> Don Langguth, CmpE(why,God,why)
|>
In a word, yes.
In several words, "It depends on the situation".
An Example:
Our instructor(s) very rarely refuse to test someone...
however, each person is told whether they are ready and if
the instructor(s) thinks that the student will pass or not.
If you are told that you aren't ready to test, then YOU
decide to test anyway... it's your money, use it how you wish.
Some students will rise to the challenge and perform
well/pass, most who try this don't(pass).
Students can fail even if the instructor thinks they are
ready, it's just a matter of how they perform at the actual test.
I do agree with the ethical statement above otherwise.
end example:
Sometimes failing is also a good thing,
ie a lesson to learn about overcoming obstacles.
Good Luck,
Brad Webb.
--
Brad Webb, HEY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS -->> bwe...@airmail.net
or reply to:erw...@rwasic33.aud.alcatel.com (wrchh187 bounces)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Japan Shotokan Karate, Dallas,TX. Nortel, Inc. (214)684-1737
(214) 231-4922 Me represent NT? I think not.
Seek perfection of character. Don't make them laugh so hard.
AJL
Joseph Isbell wrote:
>
> > >Also note the ATA gives their Black Belts up through 4th Degree a list
> > >of 4 break options
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, how many boards need be broken?
>
> Scott, for adult males, two 12" x 12" x 3/4" pine. AT 3rd dan and above
> the side kicks need to be done with 3 boards I believe.
>
Man...
Neil Gendzwill
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 donna...@email.fpl.com wrote:
> In article <5b2rpa$l...@news2.delphi.com>,
> <sami...@BIX.com> wrote:
> >
> > on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
> > a black belt test:
> > >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> > >for which the student is ill-prepared?
> >
> > I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
> > similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
> > ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
> > that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
It depends on how the testing is done. If your dojo's sensei is the
only one who is conducting the test, then he knows very well what your
level is and whether he thinks you are there or not. The purpose of
the test then becomes to make the requirements for the level clear to
the student in a formal manner. Or to make some bucks, as others
have pointed out.
If, as in kendo, the testing is done by a committee of judges then it
is your instructor's responsibility to prepare you for the test. In
our case, sensei doesn't let us try unless he thinks we can pass.
Unfortunately, the judging panel doesn't necessarily agree with him
(I can attest to that personally).
Your performance reflects on your sensei. If you are not at least in
the ballpark for the level, you've wasted your time and the judge's time
and you've made your sensei look bad. And in our case, you've blown
the cost of a plane ticket to Vancouver in addition to the testing
fees ($20-$30 for kendo). It's in everyone's best interest to make
sure you're as ready as you can be.
At any rate, the test is more for your edification than anyone else's.
The sensei don't need to sit all in a row and watch you perform. They
can practice with you for 5 minutes and classify you. But if you
go through a formal test and do specific exercises, then they can
tell you some specific things about why you failed. The real reason
is not enough practice but that seems unsatisfactory to the student...
Neil
Bryan P Chu
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
: on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
: a black belt test:
: >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
: >for which the student is ill-prepared?
:
: I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
: similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
: ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
: that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
One thing that I really liked about an old school I was at for a few years
was that they did not test. Every now and then there would be classes that
were a little different in "atmosphere" and I guess these were "test days."
Then one day you got tapped on the shoulder and told that you were ranked.
I've always liked that, unfortunatly most schools don't seem to do things
that way.
Bryan Chu
:
: Scott A. Miller
Peter C. Everett
AJL (a...@basistech.com) wrote:
: For the WTA (note, not WTF, not ITA- !
: :) ), it goes up for each new dan level-- for first dan, in my home club
: it's 3" each with two hand and two foot; in some it's 4" for men 3" for
: women; in some western clubs you have to pick the technique out of a
: hat; in some it's just 3" one way. I lose track but later tests have
: people required to break with both left and right hands and feet,
: four/five boards etc. Someone can specify this better than I...
AJ, are you trying to invoke my spirit with your last sentence? ;-)
The WTA minimum requirement is N+2 boards (#2 common pine, 1X12x10)
N *different* ways for Nth Dan up to 3. There is no *formal* requirement
for 4th Dan, but a breaking demo that is, to quote Woody Allen in
_Play_It_Again_Sam_ "really something special" is traditional. An
allowance of 1 board is sometimes made for women who are not very
large, and juniors. Local dojangs may add to this minimum.
The subject of what the purpose of a test is has been bandied about
many times before in previous threads. For some a test is really
a celebratory demonstration of what has already been achieved. For
others it is a grueling sort of hazing practice. For others it is
a closely evaluated run-through of all or part of the curriculum.
If someone wants to start a new thread on the subject again, I
encourage them to do so, but a quick search of Deja News might be
just as rewarding.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
AJL
Peter C. Everett wrote:
>
> AJL (a...@basistech.com) wrote:
> : For the WTA (note, not WTF, not ITA- !
> : :) ), it goes up for each new dan level-- for first dan, in my home club
> : it's 3" each with two hand and two foot; in some it's 4" for men 3" for
> : women; in some western clubs you have to pick the technique out of a
> : hat; in some it's just 3" one way. I lose track but later tests have
> : people required to break with both left and right hands and feet,
> : four/five boards etc. Someone can specify this better than I...
>
> AJ, are you trying to invoke my spirit with your last sentence? ;-)
>
Yay, thank heavens someone has specified this so that at least people
know we don't mean the baked half-inchers! HI PETER I have been ashamed
that you can see me posting here this week when I wasn't back in class
yet... >;} A.
Eric Iverson
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
> If there is zero chance
> that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
Two purposes I can see; rite of passage, and; the other
students see that the student testing is indeed ready
for the next level.
--Eric
Michael Ozanne
In article <5b2rpa$l...@news2.delphi.com>
sami...@BIX.com "<sami...@BIX.com>
" writes:
*on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
*a black belt test:
*>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
*>for which the student is ill-prepared?
*
*I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
*similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
*ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
*that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
Human culture is littered with rites of passage from the pleasant (In England
being taken for your first pint) to the downright disgusting (Papua New
Guinea warrior initiation). Often being told you have achieved merit is
not as good or satisfying as fighting/testing for it. I have often seen
marked improvements in attitude and application following a succesful grading.
Being told is not the same as knowing.
--
Michael Ozanne
Props
Brad Webb (bw...@wrchh187.rich.nt.com) wrote:
In article <5b37mh$f...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt2...@acmey.gatech.edu (Props) writes:
|> the other reason for waiting is it is very disheartening to fail a belt
|> test(especially a black or brown), and it is often very expensive. my
|> instructor only charged $50 fro a black belt test, but i've known schools
|> to charge in the hundreds. can an instructor ethically test, fail, and
|> take your money, knowing you would not pass?
|>
|> Props
In a word, yes.
In several words, "It depends on the situation".
An Example:
Our instructor(s) very rarely refuse to test someone...
however, each person is told whether they are ready and if
the instructor(s) thinks that the student will pass or not.
If you are told that you aren't ready to test, then YOU
decide to test anyway... it's your money, use it how you wish.
i don't agree.
Some students will rise to the challenge and perform
well/pass, most who try this don't(pass).
exactly. the instructor has been at this a very long time(hopefully), and
so has a better idea and should not let someone who is overestimating or
rushing themselves.
Students can fail even if the instructor thinks they are
ready, it's just a matter of how they perform at the actual test.
yes, no disagreement.
I do agree with the ethical statement above otherwise.
end example:
Sometimes failing is also a good thing,
ie a lesson to learn about overcoming obstacles.
yes, but when we're talking about money, especially hundreds of dollars,
that's an expensive lesson.
Props
--
Brian C. Allen
m_pe...@husky1.stmarys.ca@husky1.stmarys.ca wrote:
>
> Not true, at my dojo we do not charge for _any_ testing including BB. We review
> a student for a few weeks then test them, when i personally test someone they never know it.
> therefore if they fail they don't realize they did.
> Yours In The Martial Arts
> Mike Peckham
*** Note - this is not an accusation about your establishment, just
an alternate view
You do not need testing fees in order to 'make a buck' as the previous
post pointed out and then you defended against with your post as stated
above.
By allowing someone to pass a test who perhaps did not deserve to is
a way of keeping that person enrolled in your school, paying yearly
tuition, uniforms, weapons, etc., and they think they are doing well,
and tell their friends and get them to join which is more $$$.
BCA
m_peckha@husky1.stmarys.ca@husky1.stmarys.ca
In <32D512...@istar.ca>, New Sage <tim...@istar.ca> writes:
>sami...@BIX.com wrote:
>>
>> on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
>> >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
>>
>>
>
>New Sage
Randy Schaub
Michael Ozanne wrote:
>
> In article <5b2rpa$l...@news2.delphi.com>
> sami...@BIX.com "<sami...@BIX.com>
> " writes:
>
> *on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
> *a black belt test:
> *>What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> *>for which the student is ill-prepared?
> *
> *I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
> *similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
> *ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
> *that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
>
> Human culture is littered with rites of passage from the pleasant (In England
> being taken for your first pint) to the downright disgusting (Papua New
> Guinea warrior initiation).
Uuuuuuaaagghhhuuuuugh... Remind me to never enter a secluded shack filled
with older New Guinea warriors...
Randy
> Michael Ozanne
--
Randy Schaub
ra...@meitx.com
/\ /\
/ \_/ \ ____
\_ _/ / / El
/ * * \ /^^^]
\_\O/_/ [ ] ZORRO
/ \ [ /
\ \_ / / BLANCO
[ [ / \/ _/
_[ [ \ /_/
[[[ [[[ [[[
AJL
Eric Iverson wrote:
>
> sami...@BIX.com wrote:
> > If there is zero chance
>
> students see that the student testing is indeed ready
> for the next level.
>
Well, since Nooobody has mentioned it so far, note: no matter how
prepared you are and how much you have worked out before the test, and
how many tests you have had, you STILL feel different physically
demonstrating to the grandmaster and company. Your training should
allow you 'to take the test in stride' but it is a neat little demo just
to show you how much you want to be prepared for these things since
reportedly one's physiology is different during stress. (Here you are
thankful for motor memory among other things.)
If you were mugged, would you want to freak out? You would want to be
able to perform. The test is a minidemonstration of such, although
laboratory controlled, a situation.
--A.
Bryan P Chu
Randy Schaub (ra...@meitx.com) wrote:
: Michael Ozanne wrote:
: >
: > Human culture is littered with rites of passage from the pleasant (In England
: > being taken for your first pint) to the downright disgusting (Papua New
: > Guinea warrior initiation).
:
: Uuuuuuaaagghhhuuuuugh... Remind me to never enter a secluded shack filled
: with older New Guinea warriors...
:
: Randy
Is this New Guinea thing common knowledge or is there something I'm not
seeing here? I figure it is a "bad thing"(tm) to have happen to you
but I'm not really sure what it is.
Bryan Chu
:
:
: > Michael Ozanne
: [[[ [[[ [[[
John C. Leylegian
On 9 Jan 1997, Props wrote:
> sami...@BIX.com wrote:
> on 26 Dec 1996 PSYCHOMOUS of AOL http://www.aol.com wrote this re: failing
> a black belt test:
> >What kind of instructor would permit a student to take a black belt test
> >for which the student is ill-prepared?
>
> I've been biting my tongue on this issue because at my dojang we have a
> similar philosphy of "not testing students until we are sure they are
> ready". However, I now feel compelled to ask: If there is zero chance
> that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
>
> well, why are you testing, to see if they can pass or *prove* that they
> can pass. my last studio didi not test until the instructor was sure you
> were ready, but you woudl fail if you had a really bad day.
>
> the other reason for waiting is it is very disheartening to fail a belt
> test(especially a black or brown), and it is often very expensive. my
> instructor only charged $50 fro a black belt test, but i've known schools
> to charge in the hundreds. can an instructor ethically test, fail, and
> take your money, knowing you would not pass?
I've purposely kept quiet on this, hoping someone in my style would have
fielded this one (Peter, where are you?)...
In the style of TKD I study (Traditional Chung Do Kwan), we only put a
student up for a promotion "test" when we believe that they are ready to
pass. The "test" itself is more of a demonstration to the rest of the
dojang (as well as visitors) what the candidates have accomplished. I
guess that's the best way I can describe it. Naturally, most instructors
don't let the students know this, we still want them to be "souped up" and
put 150% into the techniques during the testing...
And to answer Props' question, I think that taking money from a student
he/she knows will fail is a terrible thing to do. From my (admittedly
limited) experience with other schools, the test fee is one-time; if you
fail you first attempt, you don't need to repay for subsequent tests. Of
course, YMMV.
[\*
John Leylegian
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| John C. Leylegian |
| Princeton University MAE Combustion and Energy Laboratory |
| j...@Princeton.EDU http://www.princeton.edu/~jcl/ |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "I wanna be just like you. I figure all I need is a lobotomy |
| and some tights..." -from "The Breakfast Club" |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Props
yeah, that's pretty much the way it was there, too.
And to answer Props' question, I think that taking money from a student
he/she knows will fail is a terrible thing to do. From my (admittedly
limited) experience with other schools, the test fee is one-time; if you
fail you first attempt, you don't need to repay for subsequent tests. Of
course, YMMV.
i find that true in more respectable studios, but there are some which
charge you each time. the other fact is that even $500 once is quite
expensive.
Peter C. Everett
: > that the student will fail, what purpose is served by testing?
: >
: > well, why are you testing, to see if they can pass or *prove* that they
: > can pass. my last studio didi not test until the instructor was sure you
: > were ready, but you woudl fail if you had a really bad day.
: >
: > the other reason for waiting is it is very disheartening to fail a belt
: > test(especially a black or brown), and it is often very expensive. my
: > instructor only charged $50 fro a black belt test, but i've known schools
: > to charge in the hundreds. can an instructor ethically test, fail, and
: > take your money, knowing you would not pass?
: I've purposely kept quiet on this, hoping someone in my style would have
: fielded this one (Peter, where are you?)...
Right behind you...YAAAAATZZZ! Pretty sneaky, huh?
: In the style of TKD I study (Traditional Chung Do Kwan), we only put a
: student up for a promotion "test" when we believe that they are ready to
: pass. The "test" itself is more of a demonstration to the rest of the
: dojang (as well as visitors) what the candidates have accomplished. I
: guess that's the best way I can describe it.
Yes. But other schools use the "test" for different purposes. Some
schools don't even have ranks or tests per se. If you ask someone for
a school like that what their rank is they will say something like
"I've been practicing for X years." I like our tradition of using
tests more as demonstrations and celebrations of skills that have
already been gained. I very much dislike the "academic" model of
testing where an exhaustive battery from the curriculum is performed,
as if it were the MCATs or SATs. It shifts the focus away from day-to-day
effort in the class, and towards the test event - completely the reverse
of what is good for training. The *real* test is: Can you come to
class consistently and push yourself to work hard and with a positive
attitude for X months or Y years.
: Naturally, most instructors
: don't let the students know this, we still want them to be "souped up" and
: put 150% into the techniques during the testing...
Well, John, you've just let the cat out of the bag, haven't you? There are
10 lurkers in r.m-a for every poster. You can be sure some of them are
the students to whom you just referred. I think the occasion to demonstrate
one's skills is more than enough reason to be "souped up," regardless of
testing. At our demos there are always students who are not eligible for
promotion participating. They always try to show their best.
: And to answer Props' question, I think that taking money from a student
: he/she knows will fail is a terrible thing to do. From my (admittedly
: limited) experience with other schools, the test fee is one-time; if you
: fail you first attempt, you don't need to repay for subsequent tests. Of
: course, YMMV.
I've *never* heard of a student paying twice for a test that was failed
once. Only the Educational Testing Service (of PRINCETON) is that cheesy.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
John C. Leylegian
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Peter C. Everett wrote:
> John C. Leylegian (j...@tucson.princeton.edu) wrote:
> : I've purposely kept quiet on this, hoping someone in my style would have
> : fielded this one (Peter, where are you?)...
> Right behind you...YAAAAATZZZ! Pretty sneaky, huh?
AARRRGGHHHH! Don't do that, especially to a guy the day before his Ph.D.
General Exam! Sheesh, now I need a dry pair of britches... (:
> : In the style of TKD I study (Traditional Chung Do Kwan), we only put a
> : student up for a promotion "test" when we believe that they are ready to
> : pass. The "test" itself is more of a demonstration to the rest of the
> : dojang (as well as visitors) what the candidates have accomplished. I
> : guess that's the best way I can describe it.
> Yes. But other schools use the "test" for different purposes. Some
> schools don't even have ranks or tests per se. If you ask someone for
> a school like that what their rank is they will say something like
> "I've been practicing for X years." I like our tradition of using
> tests more as demonstrations and celebrations of skills that have
> already been gained. I very much dislike the "academic" model of
Agreed. IMO, how long they've been studying (as well as breadth of
experience) is a much better indicator than a belt, since we all know
belts mean different things in different styles (or nothing for that
matter...)
> testing where an exhaustive battery from the curriculum is performed,
> as if it were the MCATs or SATs. It shifts the focus away from day-to-day
> effort in the class, and towards the test event - completely the reverse
> of what is good for training. The *real* test is: Can you come to
> class consistently and push yourself to work hard and with a positive
> attitude for X months or Y years.
From my experience, those are the people junior students will go to for
advice...
> : Naturally, most instructors
> : don't let the students know this, we still want them to be "souped up" and
> : put 150% into the techniques during the testing...
> Well, John, you've just let the cat out of the bag, haven't you? There are
> 10 lurkers in r.m-a for every poster. You can be sure some of them are
> the students to whom you just referred. I think the occasion to demonstrate
> one's skills is more than enough reason to be "souped up," regardless of
> testing. At our demos there are always students who are not eligible for
> promotion participating. They always try to show their best.
Don't think it matters. If you've seen what I've seen (and I'm sure
you've seen even more), very few students fail tests, especially at the
lower levels (less than 6 months of experience), when I think students
would be the most nervous. The "examiners" I've seen are usually quite
sympathetic to those people.
> : And to answer Props' question, I think that taking money from a student
> : he/she knows will fail is a terrible thing to do. From my (admittedly
> : limited) experience with other schools, the test fee is one-time; if you
> : fail you first attempt, you don't need to repay for subsequent tests. Of
> : course, YMMV.
> I've *never* heard of a student paying twice for a test that was failed
> once. Only the Educational Testing Service (of PRINCETON) is that cheesy.
Is that a shot? (:
Please please PLEASE stop confusing me with a "true" Princetonian or, New
Jerseyan for that matter. I'm a New York City boy, born and (sorta)
raised, I almost consider it an insult... I thought I'd been through this
with Vandit enough times (:
Oh, and no offense intended to the likes of Don and Erica (:
John, hoping he doesn't have too much more excitement today...
Randy Schaub
Bryan P Chu wrote:
>
> Randy Schaub (ra...@meitx.com) wrote:
> : Michael Ozanne wrote:
> : >
> : > Human culture is littered with rites of passage from the pleasant (In England
> : > being taken for your first pint) to the downright disgusting (Papua New
> : > Guinea warrior initiation).
> :
> : Uuuuuuaaagghhhuuuuugh... Remind me to never enter a secluded shack filled
> : with older New Guinea warriors...
> :
> : Randy
>
> Is this New Guinea thing common knowledge or is there something I'm not
> seeing here? I figure it is a "bad thing"(tm) to have happen to you
> but I'm not really sure what it is.
>
> Bryan Chu
>
I had to read the ethnography my junior year in Anthro- if i read it my
fish year, I probably would have chosen a different major...:)
Really, it's just a ceremony that is unpleasant to western minds like
ours. It's no big deal, though- I've done worse. It's just that the
people I have performed with at least bathed...:)
By the way, if there are any New Guinea ppl or Papua natives on this NG,
I am just jesting good naturedly. But it's still an unpleasant ceremony
;)
Randyola
--
[[[ [[[ [[[
Ingo Bojak
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Randy Schaub wrote:
> Really, it's just a ceremony that is unpleasant to western minds like
> ours. It's no big deal, though- I've done worse. It's just that the
> people I have performed with at least bathed...:)
>
Oh, come on Randy. The question was: what do they do, exactly?
If you don't know, at leat make something nasty up! :)
Ciao,
Ingo
(6. SG WT)
Angie
In article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.970113...@flagstaff.princeton.edu>, "John
C. Leylegian" <j...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Peter C. Everett wrote:
>
> > John C. Leylegian (j...@tucson.princeton.edu) wrote:
>
> > : I've purposely kept quiet on this, hoping someone in my style would have
> > : fielded this one (Peter, where are you?)...
>
> > Right behind you...YAAAAATZZZ! Pretty sneaky, huh?
>
> AARRRGGHHHH! Don't do that, especially to a guy the day before his Ph.D.
> General Exam! Sheesh, now I need a dry pair of britches... (:
>
Hey--totally off topic, but good luck on the exam. Mine was _SO_ much
fun. Just keep thinking to yourself "it's almost over. . . it's almost
over. . . it's almost over" :-)
Angie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Northwestern University
Chicago, IL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.
-Albert Einstein
Randy Schaub
Oh, I see... I'm not sure this is appropriate for the newsgroup (well,
i'm positive it is NOT, but)- I'll just describe it very briefly:
One boy (the man-to-be...)
Several older men
The boy performs fellatio on all the men.
Well, that wasn't so bad, was it?
No flames, please- this is a real ceremony, and of high cultural value to
the people who do it- don't insult them or me. :)
still, it's kinda...sticky...
Randy
Bryan P Chu
Randy Schaub (ra...@meitx.com) wrote:
: Bryan P Chu wrote:
: > Is this New Guinea thing common knowledge or is there something I'm not
: > seeing here? I figure it is a "bad thing"(tm) to have happen to you
: > but I'm not really sure what it is.
: >
: > Bryan Chu
: >
:
:
: I had to read the ethnography my junior year in Anthro- if i read it my
: fish year, I probably would have chosen a different major...:)
: Really, it's just a ceremony that is unpleasant to western minds like
: people I have performed with at least bathed...:)
: By the way, if there are any New Guinea ppl or Papua natives on this NG,
: ;)
So what's the ceremony? I think I'm going to regret the answer, but
for goodness sake, the suspense is killing me.
Bryan Chu
:
:
:
: Randyola
: --
: [[[ [[[ [[[
Michael Ozanne
In article <32D69C...@meitx.com> ra...@meitx.com "Randy Schaub" writes:
*>
*> Human culture is littered with rites of passage from the pleasant (In England
*> being taken for your first pint) to the downright disgusting (Papua New
*> Guinea warrior initiation).
*
*Uuuuuuaaagghhhuuuuugh... Remind me to never enter a secluded shack filled
*with older New Guinea warriors...
But you would leave the shack full of "warrior spirit"
--
Michael Ozanne
sami...@bix.com
on Thu, 9 Jan 1997 Joseph Isbell of wrote this re: failing a black belt test:
> the ATA is asking all schools to switch to
>rebreakable boards
Yikes! Have you used these? In our school, even higher non-dan students
routinely break 2-3 boards at a strike, and teh clear consensus is that the
rebreakables are _brutal_ (it's not just the fact that rebreakables take
_more_ force, but the breaking characteristics are not the same, with an
apparent need to apply a given force for a longer duration). I think if I
had a choice, I'd try to purchase wooden boards out of my own pocket first.
SHARK®
Randy Schaub <ra...@meitx.com> scribbled with their Crayola:
>Oh, I see... I'm not sure this is appropriate for the newsgroup (well,
>i'm positive it is NOT, but)- I'll just describe it very briefly:
>One boy (the man-to-be...)
>Several older men
>The boy performs fellatio on all the men.
>Well, that wasn't so bad, was it?
>No flames, please- this is a real ceremony, and of high cultural value to
>the people who do it- don't insult them or me. :)
>still, it's kinda...sticky...
>Randy
Remember the slurpee contest? I'll conceed. You win.
Carcharodon Carcharias
Nick Cassimatis
To add my 2 cents worth, when I tested one of my students, I knew that
they had the knowledge, ability, and everything else they needed to pass
the test. The test was to determine their desire for the new rank. I
pre-tested everyone, and that is where I looked at the skills, etc. Now
for a Black Belt test, I was very sure that they were going to pass, and
not one of my students would have shown up without being ready to give
150%. They knew what an insult that would be to me.
--
Nick Cassimatis
My opinions are mine alone.
WIN95 - From the people who brough you EDLIN. (If you don't know, don't
ask)
Peter C. Everett
sami...@BIX.com wrote:
: on Thu, 9 Jan 1997 Joseph Isbell of wrote this re: failing a black belt test:
: > the ATA is asking all schools to switch to
: >rebreakable boards
: Yikes! Have you used these? In our school, even higher non-dan students
: routinely break 2-3 boards at a strike, and the clear consensus is that the
: rebreakables are _brutal_ (it's not just the fact that rebreakables take
: _more_ force, but the breaking characteristics are not the same, with an
: apparent need to apply a given force for a longer duration). I think if I
: had a choice, I'd try to purchase wooden boards out of my own pocket first.
A year or two ago there was a very comprehensive thread on the
virtues and evils of plastic boards. I have extensive experience
with both real and rebreakable boards and have noted the following:
0) I am comparing plastic boards to unbaked 10" boards cut from
1x12 common (#2) pine.
1) One rebreakable board is almost as difficult to break as
two wood boards, but they get easier to break with use and
at warmer temperatures.
2) Scott is correct that the plastic boards need to have the force
applied for more time than wood boards. Force*Time equals impulse,
or momentum transfer. Thus plastic boards are harder on the holders.
3) Related to 2, plastic boards favor big people, both as breakers and
holders. A very small, fast person who can break 6 wood boards might
not break 3 plastic boards, while a big, less skilled person will not
be able to break 6 wood boards, but will break 3 plastic boards.
Plastic boards thus reward size at the expense of speed.
4) Also related to 2, you can forget about unsupported, or "speed"
breaks of plastic boards (except maybe one). I can speed break
4 pine boards. I woudn't even try to do a speed break of 2
plastic boards.
5) Plastic boards only have a single "grain" and thus penalize off-center
strikes more severly than wood boards.
6) Plastic boards, even if broken well, return much more force into
the striker than wood boards that are broken well. They can be
quite injurious to the knuckles when punching. (I'll never make
that mistake again.)
In summary, I don't like the rebreakable boards very much. I don't
think they test the right things, and they are less versatile.
Enjoy,
Peter C. Everett
Hayakko, The Black Tiger
Just tossing my two cents in here... 1987 cents so adjust for inflation.
> : And to answer Props' question, I think that taking money from a student he/she knows will fail is a terrible thing to do.
True enough. But, then again, this assumes Honour on the part of the
millions of half-trained instructors out there who barely know their
system's fighting forms and style. How can we really expect them to do
more than what they know? Especially as most of these folks are in it
for the buck and not for the spirit of the art. IMHO
From my (admittedly limited) experience with other schools, the test
fee is one-time; if you fail you first attempt, you don't need to repay
for subsequent tests. > Of course, YMMV.
Uhm, YMMV???? Dunno this one, please elucidate a bit for my newbie mind
and self.
> I've *never* heard of a student paying twice for a test that was failed
> once. Only the Educational Testing Service (of PRINCETON) is that cheesy.
True enough!!!! Two GRE's and some decent scores later.. *GROAN*
Peace!!
Hayakko,, The Black Tiger
Robert L Campbell
Peter C. Everett (p...@world.std.com) wrote:
<real big snip, agree with all of it>
: 6) Plastic boards, even if broken well, return much more force into
: the striker than wood boards that are broken well. They can be
: quite injurious to the knuckles when punching. (I'll never make
: that mistake again.)
: In summary, I don't like the rebreakable boards very much. I don't
: think they test the right things, and they are less versatile.
This is the essence of it right here. The rebreakable boards are not just
like the real ones. I can relate to this. The first time I punched a
plastic board I was told (by the producer, there was a table set up at a
tournament) that it was the exact same as a regular board. Well I took a
shot at it, I mean it was only one board and then I hopped around. I
though I had broken my hand. Not too mention the two big scrapes and
bruises on my knuckles. I have not punched one since and don't plan too
anytime soon. Give me concrete over those things. They are dangerous.
Well written Peter. It could not be put any more succintly.
Just my thoughts
Robert Campbell
Zeeberex
Virtue of rebreakable boards? They're already broken, no resistance, no
realism, no point
John C. Leylegian
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Angie wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113...@flagstaff.princeton.edu>, "John
> C. Leylegian" <j...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Peter C. Everett wrote:
> >
> > > Right behind you...YAAAAATZZZ! Pretty sneaky, huh?
> >
> > AARRRGGHHHH! Don't do that, especially to a guy the day before his Ph.D.
> > General Exam! Sheesh, now I need a dry pair of britches... (:
> >
>
> Hey--totally off topic, but good luck on the exam. Mine was _SO_ much
> fun. Just keep thinking to yourself "it's almost over. . . it's almost
> over. . . it's almost over" :-)
Hey, thanks. Actually it went well... I passed (by the skin of my teeth,
but who cares? A pass is a pass) (:
John, goin' on vacation!!! (:
AJL
Ouch, I sure was embarrassed to demonstrate for the newbies breaks that
had easily done several wood boards in the past, on a rebreakable board
in the dark without my glasses.
sami...@bix.com
In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970111...@tucson.princeton.edu> on Sun,
12 Jan 1997 16:41:00 -0500 John C. Leylegian of Princeton University wrote
this re Re: failing a black belt test:
> The "test" itself is more of a demonstration to the rest of the
>dojang (as well as visitors) what the candidates have accomplished
I can understand this approach, but IMHO it still may have its downside.
If the main purpose is to instruct and inspire lower-ranking members, what
message is sent if those members witness a poor performance by a candidate
on the test, then see that candidate receive his or her promotion anyway?
In general, perhaps it would better serve us to be candid about the purpose
of such events.
Seikan
How much did the old Korean Chinese and Japanese masters charge for their
tests?
Are you really in it only for the money?
Seikan.
New Sage
The old Japanese masters did not charge for tests. ( talking about
traditional systems ) because it was not a business. They were very
picky about who they taught and the test consisted of one day awarding
the person the certificate without formal testing because they were
ready .
The attitude was that if you taught a person for some time and they
didn't learn the techniques, it was your fault for being a rotten
teacher. ( Not quite like that today is it ?) So, the instructor's
reputation was based on how good his students were as well as how good
he was .
Today, in 99% of systems, the tests are a way to generate funds, as well
as an ego-building facet that produces overconfident students . ( if you
were to judge a teacher by the quality of their students, many
instructors would rate very low...)
Ranks/Grades should really serve but two purposes : to allow instructors
to know at what stage of training the students are at in order to know
what they are ready to be taught, and as an incentive for students to
move on to higher levels of training.
New Sage
Joaquin Torres
Where I study, you pay for your rank tests up until black belt...you
don't pay for that...you earn it.
Joaquin Torres