Chinese version of Aikido?
Doug McKay
Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
looks like aerobics for old people.
There's a wonderful book on Aikido I'm going to get just because it's such
an incredible book. I don't remember the authors, but they're two guys,
American's, and one of them created many many drawings for the book. It's
published by Tuttle. These two also wrote a book on the martial arts of
Feudal Japan. Another incredible book. Scholarly. It's very high up on my
wish list.
I'm asking about Chinese versions of this kind of MA because I'd like to
focus on Chinese styles for a while. This is for personal reasons, and is
therefore naturally not completely rational.
Doug McKay
"Just get the root, don't worry about the branches, for someday you will
come to have them naturally. If you have not attained the basis, even if
you consciously study you cannot attain the outgrowths either."
-- Zen Master Yangshan --
Roger Krueger
>There's a wonderful book on Aikido I'm going to get ...
A. Westbrook and O. Ratti, _Aikido_and_the Dynamic Sphere_ ?
>I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>looks like aerobics for old people.
>This is ... not completely rational.
We understand. :-)
Roger Krueger rkru...@delphi.com
jtnichol
> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
You won't find a single Chinese MA comparable to Aikido, nor vice versa.
Chin na is not a separate art, but refers to particular applications
found in several arts including taijiquan. Taiji is most certainly a
martial art, but is not always taught and practiced as one although the
health benefits are reduced if the martial potential is ignored. Of
course Aikido sometimes looks like some sort of acrobatics. I have seen
some suggestions that O'Sensei had been exposed to bagua while in
Manchuria. Bagua is another Chinese internal art.
I practice taiji with some aikido and hapkidoists. You will find some
familiar concepts in taiji: circular,turning movements; yielding to and
neutralizing the opponents energy; listening to the opponent's energy
and movement, etc. The practice will seem much different: alot of
forms practice, energy work from the beginning, and push hands in which
throws locks punches and pushes might be introduced as secondary to
strategy. Even in free push hands, players only rarely actually fall on
the floor. We don't even practice falls.
Chino
>
> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
> looks like aerobics for old people.
>
side of it, but it does exist. Check out Chen Taichi.
Chin Na means "seize and control". It includes grabs, jointlocks, throws,
chokes, and pressure point attacks. It is part of every style of Chinese
martial arts. In most arts it is considered advanced techniques and is
not introduced until one have reached an advanced level. Some styles
however, are emphasize on Chin Na. These include Ying Jow Pai, White Crane,
8 Step Praying Mantis, and many internal styles.
Kevin R. Craig
>Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
For my money, Baguazhang (one of the three Chinese internal arts trio:
Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi) has much the same "feel" or "energy" as aikido.
This is especially true of the Cheng Ting Hua branch of Bagua. It is
hypothesized that this branch of Bagua has a great deal of throwing in it
because Cheng was very accomplished in Shuai Chiao (sp? i.e. "Chinese
wrestling") before studying Bagua with Dong Hai Kwan. Dong only accepted
students accomplished in other MA's and tended, it is said, to build on
their previous training.
Gao style Bagua is one of the major systems in the Cheng Ting Hua branch.
Unfortunately, it is still somewhat rare in the U.S. Marc Brinkman
(senior student of Gao-style expert Luo De Xiu) lives and teaches in
Denver. Tim Cartmell (sp?) teaches Gao somewhere in California (I
think). There's another guy in the U.S. who studied with Luo as well
who's name and location escape me at the moment (anyone else know?).
There is another branch of the Gao style represented by Zhou Qinsai (sp?)
of Sante Fe and his students as well.
>Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all.
Oh yes it is!!!! I (and others) can point you to a number of people who
are able to demonstrate this to your (or anyone else's) satisfaction;
though you may be sorry afterward ;^) What you and most people think of
as Taiji is Yang style (often Cheng Man Ching's version) which is most
often *practiced* very slowly and upright. Also, many people practice it
solely "for health" so it's gotten something of a bad rep.
application-wise. Not all Taiji is thus however, and you should NEVER
underestimate any of it.
Let me point out though that Bagua (and Xingyi for that matter) are much
more vigorous in their practice than most Taiji, so you can rest easy on
that score.
Just my $0.02. Hope this helps.
--
Kevin
- All opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and sometimes
they aren't even his -
Bigbird
>Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
>looks like aerobics for old people.
Oh man!!!!!! Tai Chi is as Martial as can be. It's just that in the West, it's
mostly newage weirdos that got interested in the excercise part of Tai Chi.
Back when Tai Chi first came out in China, they claim that they can beat anyone
and indeed, they beat all of their challengers. Tai Chi interestingly, tough,
are picked up mostly by people who are not really learning it for combat here
in the West. Most internal styles, I suppose, you can say in close to Aikido in
Japan. I personally have heard and feel that Tai Chi, Hsing I, Pakua and Lu Ho
Ba Fa are much more developed as an Martial Art than the Aikido I have seen.
terrell gibbs
> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
> looks like aerobics for old people.
There is no single Chinese martial art that is comparable to aikido,
although you can find bits and pieces in various martial arts. Chin na
includes all of the aikido joint locks (and many more) but it's really
closer to Ju Jitsu in application. Bagua has entering moves that resemble
those of aikido, and some similar throws, but it is quite different in
many other respects. Tai Chi (which is, by the way, an extraordinarily
effective martial art in the hands of a master) shares with aikido the
emphasis on ki/chi, and the strategy of blending with the opponent's power
to unbalance him, but there not that much overlap in actual techniques.
Also, Tai Chi tends to emphasize evading the opponent's power with subtle
shifts and turns of the body, whereas aikido emphasizes footwork. As a
result, Tai Chi "feels" a lot like aikido, but doesn't look much like it.
Steve Weigand
Doug McKay <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
>Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>looks like aerobics for old people.
Well, live 'n learn. Some tai chi people I've seen are the most deadliest
people on the planet with their hands. The techniques contained in tai chi
forms are often pretty nasty when you are explained how to use them. An
analysis of their forms will show that they contain stuff like grappling,
pressure point work (dim-mak), bone-breaking, throwing, kicking/punching,
etc. I know Erle Montaigue, for example, can show how each movement in
his tai chi patterns can be used to KO or kill a person. When you train
under a good tai chi teacher (one who knows both the health and martial
aspects), then you'll usually be able to use the form you're learning for
self-defense almost immediately. The problem is, though, like so many
martial arts, it's tough finding one of those good teachers, since there
are a lot of McDojo's around with self-proclaimed grand-masters.
>I'm asking about Chinese versions of this kind of MA because I'd like to
>focus on Chinese styles for a while. This is for personal reasons, and is
>therefore naturally not completely rational.
I'm not sure why you want to limit yourself to only Chinese martial
arts. If what you're looking for is Aikido, why not join an Aikido
school? Duh! :-)
But, okay, on the supposition that you can't live without being in a
Chinese martial art, you can try Tai Chi Chuan (Wu, Yang, Chen, etc.).
You can maybe do Pa Kua or Hsing Yi, too. I recommend maybe a combo of
Tai Chi and Pa Kua. Chin-na is the grappling (small-circle and otherwise)
contained in every Chinese martial art. So "chin-na" is really not a
martial art by itself, but rather a category of techniques that exists
in every martial art. Similarly, "dim-mak" is not a particular martial
art by itself, but rather, a category of techniques/style contained
in every martial art.
Ciao for now,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@marlin.ssnet.com)
Jeff Frane
>There's a wonderful book on Aikido I'm going to get just because it's such
>an incredible book. I don't remember the authors, but they're two guys,
>American's, and one of them created many many drawings for the book. It's
>published by Tuttle. These two also wrote a book on the martial arts of
>Feudal Japan. Another incredible book. Scholarly. It's very high up on my
>wish list.
The book is called Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, by Westbrook and
Ratti. As I recall, however, Westbrook and Ratti were married, and
one of them (Westbrook) wasn't a "guy."
--Jeff Frane
George Meno
MCºIs there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
ºOr is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
ºlooks like aerobics for old people.
Doug, There is an art called Shuai Chiao (sp), which is a combo of
locks with many Judo and Jujuitsu like throws. It appears as if more
strength is used to execute the moves than with Aikido. The late
Grand Master was Chang Deng Sheng. He passed the art onto his adopted
son, a caucasian, whose name I cannot recall now, but it will come
back to me.
////GPM....00:00 EST...KFu & TCC...george.meno@amega.com
... "Good, now, let me try your Wu Tang style" 'Ching' 'Chang'
---
þ
George Meno
TRºOh man!!!!!! Tai Chi is as Martial as can be. It's just that in the West, it
ºmostly newage weirdos that got interested in the exercise part of Tai Chi.
ºBack when Tai Chi first came out in China, they claim that they can beat any
ºand indeed, they beat all of their challengers. Tai Chi interestingly, tough
ºare picked up mostly by people who are not really learning it for combat her
ºin the West. Most internal styles, I suppose, you can say in close to Aikido
ºJapan. I personally have heard and feel that Tai Chi, Hsing I, Pakua and Lu
ºBa Fa are much more developed as an Martial Art than the Aikido I have seen.
I'm sorry to say that I've been studying Tai Chi Chuan for about 10
years now and really haven't found any effective teachers of the
Chuan part. My first teacher, a female, was a great teacher in regard
to the choreography of the moves. She had no interest in the Martial
Arts applications. I had com from a Kung Fu back ground, and was
aware of what almost every move meant and could do. In fact she had
me demo to the class and sort of lecture as to the Kung Fu origins of
the Yang Tai Chi style. It would be nice to have a teacher in the
East of the same calibre as Doc Fai Wong in California.
////GPM....00:17 EST...KFu & TCC...george.meno@amega.com
---
þ Always forgive your enemies - it will really annoy them.
Ectalk
>Doug, There is an art called Shuai Chiao (sp), which is a combo of
>locks with many Judo and Jujuitsu like throws. It appears as if more
>strength is used to execute the moves than with Aikido. The late
>Grand Master was Chang Deng Sheng. He passed the art onto his adopted
>son, a caucasian, whose name I cannot recall now, but it will come
>back to me.
Shuai Chiao is nothing like Aikido, it is very similar to Judo(which I
studied for few years).
Aikido is uniqui. Aikido's movement is only a small portion of its art.
It is much more than just controlling someone with joint twisting or by
ki energy. It is a way to understand Shinto.
Why don't you study Aikido instead of looking around. Better, you should
study Tai Chi. It is my hardest martial art that I ever studied. True Tai
Chi is not aerobics for old people. Do get confuse with the Communist
version of Tai Chi. I studied Aikido for many years and I found Tai Chi
are much more difficult and rich in depth(for me only, not neccessary
truth for other practioner.)
Ectalk
Ian T Roxborough
Yes, there is a Chinese art similar to Aikido. I cann't remember
the name of it, (Feng Shuig?? or something), I'll look it up
and post the name of it. The martial-art I study/teach contian
fragments of it.
I also can understand why you wish to study a chinese version of
Aikido (compatibility between, energies of Japanese and chinese
martial-arts is not always the same chi~=ki).
Do not over look Aikido, it is for more popular than its chinese
counter part and you'll probaly have any easier time finding
a good school.
Hope this help and I'll post the name (and it reference).
Ian.
P.S. If I forget to Post the name of the Art, E-mail me.
Or E-mail me anyway.
Boy is nice to see an original question (none of this Elmo shite).
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian T Roxborough. + (408) 654-4353
Silvaco Int, Santa Clara, Ca.
Ian T Roxborough
> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
What you people never heard of Reeboks Step Aikido? :-)
mike mui
>
>
>Yes, there is a Chinese art similar to Aikido. I cann't remember
>the name of it, (Feng Shuig?? or something), I'll look it up
>and post the name of it. The martial-art I study/teach contian
>fragments of it.
>
Ther is an awsome Chinese art called Feng Shui. Of course it's mainly used for bulding
design, and interior decorating. The English term is 'geomancy'.
As far as a Chinese equivalent of Aikido, I've practiced and taught Chen style Tai Chi for
several years and have dabbled in Aikido, and I find there are a lot of similarities.
Of course, most people only study and teach the meditation/health/new age aspects of
Tai Chi these days, but the true art is rooted in practical techniques based on basic
physical principles. Actually, the practical, physical/fighting aspect of Tai Chi was easy
for me to learn (I have a Kung-Fu background). What I couldn't pick up was the internal,
mysterious, 'chi', new age, meditation stuff. That's why I quit teaching.
Hope this helps.
----
mike mui
Ian T Roxborough
Yes, there is a Chinese art similar to Aikido. I cann't remember
the name of it, (Feng Shuig?? or something), I'll look it up
and post the name of it. The martial-art I study/teach contian
fragments of it.
I also can understand why you wish to study a chinese version of
Aikido (compatibility between, energies of Japanese and chinese
martial-arts is not always the same chi~=ki).
Do not over look Aikido, it is for more popular than its chinese
counter part and you'll probaly have any easier time finding
a good school.
Hope this help and I'll post the name (and it reference).
Ian.
P.S. If I forget to Post the name of the Art, E-mail me.
Or E-mail me anyway.
Boy is nice to see an original question (none of this Elmo shite).
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian T Roxborough
Ian T Roxborough
Elhomo
Kinesthesia
>In article <4952sl$h...@ftp.Silvaco.COM>, Ian T Roxborough <ia...@silvaco.com> says:
>>
>>
>>Yes, there is a Chinese art similar to Aikido. I cann't remember
>>the name of it, (Feng Shuig?? or something), I'll look it up
>>and post the name of it. The martial-art I study/teach contian
>>fragments of it.
>>
>
>
>Ther is an awsome Chinese art called Feng Shui. Of course it's mainly used for bulding
>design, and interior decorating. The English term is 'geomancy'.
>
>As far as a Chinese equivalent of Aikido, I've practiced and taught Chen style Tai Chi for
>several years and have dabbled in Aikido, and I find there are a lot of similarities.
>
>Of course, most people only study and teach the meditation/health/new age aspects of
>Tai Chi these days, but the true art is rooted in practical techniques based on basic
>physical principles. Actually, the practical, physical/fighting aspect of Tai Chi was easy
>for me to learn (I have a Kung-Fu background). What I couldn't pick up was the internal,
>mysterious, 'chi', new age, meditation stuff. That's why I quit teaching.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>
>
>----
>mike mui
>
I heard the opion voiced that Aikido derives a great deal from Pa Kua.
- Kinesthesia
Please CC all public responses to kines...@mailhost.net
Azure 7
If you're looking for chinese grappling style, Chin-Na and chinese
wrestling is about the only two pure grappling style you'll find in
chinese forms. Chin-Na deals more with arm and wrist locks, and chinese
wrestling deals with throws. Actually it's very similiar to the
greco-roman style of wrestling.
As to the point of Tai-Chi, or Tai-ji. There too much confusion on
what it is about, and because of all the variations of it that exist now,
I'm not going to comment on what it actually is, because everyone in some
strange way is right, but I will say that Tai-Ji, really isn't a grappling
form, it deals more with "deflecting" attacks and grapples, there is some
"throws" in the form. And it is more than just some form of aerobics for
older people. you just have to find the right teacher for that.
Enjoy.
-- J.Wu.
"I drank WHAT?!" - Socrate
Dave Hoots
> On Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:00:37 GMT, mm...@express.ca (mike mui) wrote:
>
> >In article <4952sl$h...@ftp.Silvaco.COM>, Ian T Roxborough
<ia...@silvaco.com> says:
> >>
> >>
> >>Yes, there is a Chinese art similar to Aikido. I cann't remember
> >>the name of it, (Feng Shuig?? or something), I'll look it up
> >>and post the name of it. The martial-art I study/teach contian
> >>fragments of it.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Ther is an awsome Chinese art called Feng Shui. Of course it's mainly
used for bulding
> >design, and interior decorating. The English term is 'geomancy'.
> >
> >As far as a Chinese equivalent of Aikido, I've practiced and taught
Chen style Tai Chi for
> >several years and have dabbled in Aikido, and I find there are a lot of
similarities.
> >
> >[snip]
>
> I heard the opion voiced that Aikido derives a great deal from Pa Kua.
>
> - Kinesthesia
>
> Please CC all public responses to kines...@mailhost.net
Uyeshiba O'Sensei studied bagua when he was in China. He was also exposed
to Chin'na, Hsing-I,
Tai Chi, and Shuai Chiao (often referred to as 'Chinese Wrestling'). He
derived a higher appreciation for 'circle' theory from bagua, but like
many Japanese, didn't want to overtly 'honor' the Chinese by acknowledging
the source.
There are numerous quality bagua teachers in the United States. Pick up a
copy of "Ba Gua Journal";
teachers are listed on the back.
I hope this helps you.......
Regards,
Dave Hoots
x93c...@wmich.edu
> In article <95112207...@amega.com>,
> George Meno <georg...@amega.com> wrote:
>> ÆÍÍÍÍ On 11-19-95, Mcka...@Maroon.Tc.Umn.Ed wrote to All ÍÍÍ͵
>>
>> ºOr is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>> ºlooks like aerobics for old people.
Who is this ignorant dumb-ass anyway? Who let him in here? That just
goes to show the implicit nature of TaijiChuan. TaijiChuan is by far the most
powerful martial-art in existance. But of course, you wouldn't believe me,
and frankly, the better it is that way. The neijia list might find this
amusing.
For others interested, Chin Na is an integral part of all Chinese
Wushu systems. ShuaiJiao not so much, but Chin Na is.
>>
>>Doug, There is an art called Shuai Chiao (sp), which is a combo of
>>locks with many Judo and Jujuitsu like throws. It appears as if more
>>strength is used to execute the moves than with Aikido. The late
>>Grand Master was Chang Deng Sheng. He passed the art onto his adopted
>>son, a caucasian, whose name I cannot recall now, but it will come
>>back to me.
ShuaiJiao is probably the oldest MA in China, it is way more than
2000 years old. It is generally known as Chinese wrestling. ShuaiJiao's
concepts are different from Judo and Jiujitsu. Let's see, are you talking
about classical Jiujitsu, or modern Jiujitsu? The head of ShuaiJiao over here
in the US is Dr. Daniel Weng.
>>
>>
> I think the appearance of effortlessness in Aikido is deceiving. I've
> recently begun learning about pressure point striking. I was looking up
> some reference in an Aikido book with pictures of Ueshiba executing
> different techniques -- and I'll be damned if he wasn't using pressure
> points to drop the uke's chi (qi, ki) before throwing him. It doesn't
> take much effort to throw someone if you've already eliminated their
> resistance.
>
> I look at pictures of techniques and katas so differently now -- after
> only an introduction to meridians and pressure points. I can only
> imagine what there is to discover down the road.
>
> Ciao for now.
> Laura
>
Tim.
gras...@tir.com
>georg...@amega.com (George Meno) writes:
>>Doug, There is an art called Shuai Chiao (sp), which is a combo of
>>locks with many Judo and Jujuitsu like throws. It appears as if more
>>strength is used to execute the moves than with Aikido. The late
>>Grand Master was Chang Deng Sheng. He passed the art onto his adopted
>>son, a caucasian, whose name I cannot recall now, but it will come
>>back to me.
>Shuai Chiao is nothing like Aikido, it is very similar to Judo(which I
>studied for few years).
>Aikido is uniqui. Aikido's movement is only a small portion of its art.
>It is much more than just controlling someone with joint twisting or by
>ki energy. It is a way to understand Shinto.
>Why don't you study Aikido instead of looking around. Better, you should
>study Tai Chi. It is my hardest martial art that I ever studied. True Tai
>Chi is not aerobics for old people. Do get confuse with the Communist
>version of Tai Chi. I studied Aikido for many years and I found Tai Chi
>are much more difficult and rich in depth(for me only, not neccessary
>truth for other practioner.)
>Ectalk
I must agree that Tai Chi is the most involved and intense martial art
I have studied I am currently a certified instructor of Tai Chi and
have had a few students that ventured into aikido after only three
months of Tai Chi and in six months of Aikido They were able to attain
their blackbelt.
This is perhaps because between the transfer from Chinese
philosophical views to japanese Tai Chi lost a lot of the deeper
concepts of chi and longevity and the spiritual world. It was instead
traslated to what we see now as Aikido. which while a very effective
form of self defense is not as in depth ar involved as its Chinese
predecessor.
ghop
Steve Weigand
>In article <49cklh$j...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, ldb...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Laura Ellen Downs-Buma) writes:
>> In article <95112207...@amega.com>,
>> George Meno <georg...@amega.com> wrote:
>>> ÆÍÍÍÍ On 11-19-95, Mcka...@Maroon.Tc.Umn.Ed wrote to All ÍÍÍ͵
>>>
>>>MCºIs there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
>>> ºOr is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>>> ºlooks like aerobics for old people.
>
> Who is this ignorant dumb-ass anyway? Who let him in here?
Don't be so hard on whoever posted that original message. Really, I
don't think he realized that he was insulting anyone, because, like you
said, he was ignorant as to what Tai Chi Chuan is about. That doesn't
make him dumb, and it certainly was uncalled for to say so. Nobody should
be made to feel bad for asking "newbie" questions here. I'm sure even you
once though the way he did about certain martial arts, only to eventually
learn the whole story.
George Meno
Ldb...@gwis2.Circ.Gwu.Edu (laura Ellen Downs-Buma)refer#: None
wrote
|============| on Earthdate: Tuesday, November, 28, 1995
|LºI look at pictures of techniques and katas so differently now -- after
| ºonly an introduction to meridians and pressure points. I can only
| ºimagine what there is to discover down the road.
|
|LºCiao for now.
| ºLaura
|=================| in the (874) recmartial-a Conference
Laura, I'm an M.D. Acupuncturist, and I use them all the time. It
depends upon the class and the student I'm working out with. It's a
great part of Southern Praying Mantis. Our Wing Chun instructor, doesn't
care one way or the other. He feels his fists are big enough to break
every bone in the face, so the Acupuncture points become a mute thing.
////GPM....12:26 EST...KFu & TCC...george.meno@amega.com
---
þ Gee Elmo, now look at what you've done.
Stephen O Gombosi
>Uyeshiba O'Sensei studied bagua when he was in China. He was also exposed
I've seen absolutely no evidence that this ever happened. It's been a pretty
lively topic of discussion here in r.m-a over the last few years, and all
the evidence we've managed to find suggests the following:
1) Ueshiba spent only a few months in China, and most of that was on the
run or in jail.
2) Ueshiba was sufficiently Nippon-centric that he wasn't particularly
interested in studying Chinese arts. Note that I am *not* claiming
this was a Good Thing - it's just the way he was. Nobody's perfect,
enlightened or not ;-)
3) Virtually the entire Aikido curriculum (and then some) is present in
Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, which Ueshiba studied and taught for many
years and which, incidentally, predates Bagua by several centuries.
If you have definitive evidence that Ueshiba actually studied one or more
of the neijia, I'd be very interested. Note that I'm not claiming that
there aren't remarkable similarities (especially the boat-rowing/mill-turning
exercise) in technique and training methods which suggest a common ancestry
(probably Chinese) in the distant past - just that this common root
predates Ueshiba by several hundred years.
Steve
Alexander D.C. Kask
Thanks Jeff. If anyone is interested in ordering a copy of this book or for
more bibliographic data, just e-mail me at the address below.
Best regards,
AK
Alexander D.C. Kask ak...@tuttle.co.jp
Charles E. Tuttle Publishing Company Tokyo, Japan
Patrick Juola
>Hello:
>
> If you're looking for chinese grappling style, Chin-Na and chinese
>wrestling is about the only two pure grappling style you'll find in
>chinese forms. Chin-Na deals more with arm and wrist locks, and chinese
>wrestling deals with throws. Actually it's very similiar to the
>greco-roman style of wrestling.
Um, Chin-Na isn't a martial art by itself. Almost every Chinese art
in existence uses various forms of Chin-na, and it's not the sort of
thing that can effectively be studied without a reasonable background
in some art.
Calling "chin-na" a martial art is like calling "kicking" a martial
art. It's a family of techniques that any decent martial artist should
know something about....
Patrick
George Meno
Azu...@aol.Com (azure 7) wrote
|============| on Earthdate: Thursday, November, 30, 1995
|Aº As to the point of Tai-Chi, or Tai-ji. There too much confusion on
| ºwhat it is about, and because of all the variations of it that exist now
| ºI'm not going to comment on what it actually is, because everyone in some
| ºstrange way is right, but I will say that Tai-Ji, really isn't a grappling
| ºform, it deals more with "deflecting" attacks and grapples, there is some
| º"throws" in the form. And it is more than just some form of aerobics for
| ºolder people. you just have to find the right teacher for that.
|=================| in the (874) recmartial-a Conference
The Tai Chi Style I was taught had it all. This is because the teacher
came from a Kung Fu Background.
////GPM....07:47 EST...KFu & TCC...george.meno@amega.com
---
þ Laptops are popular because they can be used on the john.
jtnichol
> Azu...@aol.Com (azure 7) wrote
> |============| on Earthdate: Thursday, November, 30, 1995
> |Aº As to the point of Tai-Chi, or Tai-ji. There too much confusion on
> | ºwhat it is about, and because of all the variations of it that exist now
> | ºI'm not going to comment on what it actually is, because everyone in some
> | ºstrange way is right, but I will say that Tai-Ji, really isn't a grappling
> | ºform, it deals more with "deflecting" attacks and grapples,
I have seen some applications described as standing grappling, but
taijiquan does not present a complete grappling/ groundfighting system.
The training does increase flexibility and sensitivity which could help
on the ground, but applications from the ground are largely ignored.
there
is some
> | º"throws" in the form. And it is more than just some form of aerobics for
> | ºolder people. you just have to find the right teacher for that.
> |=================| in the (874) recmartial-a Conference
> The Tai Chi Style I was taught had it all. This is because the teacher
> came from a Kung Fu Background.
I don't see how the Kung fu has much to do with it. In fact, you may
have been given the Shaolin cooption of internal techniques without true
and full internal training.
Jim Nichols
Azure 7
uses some sort of pressure point locks, but that's not Chin-Na. Calling
Chin-Na "Arm/Wrist lock" is the same as calling TKD "kicking". I will be
the first to admitt that Chin-Na specialize in locks, just like TKD is has
more concentration on kicks. But it would be a mistake to say that
Chin-Na is just part of other chinese martial arts.
Steve Weigand
You are making a common mistake. "Chin-Na" (Seize and Control) is merely a
category of techniques contained in many Chinese martial arts. There is
no martial art known as "Chin-Na". Chin-Na refers to the various joint
locks and manipulations that go on inside the various martial arts of
Chinese origin. For example, if you study Northern Shaolin Longfist
kung fu, you must know the bone-breaking applications of your techniques,
but you also must know the chin-na applications found in your forms as
well. Dim-Mak is another category of analysis, but Dim-Mak is not a
martial art in and of itself. So here are two examples of "categories"
of techniques... You might ask your sifu to show you the chin-na
applications of a form one night, while the other night you might ask
that same sifu to show you the dim-mak applications of the form. Sometimes
the two categories overlap.
Incidentally, Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming has a book out on Chin-Na. He teaches
Northern Longfist Chin-Na. Chin-Na applications have a different feel
in other martial arts, like Tai Chi Chuan, for example. It all depends
on your root art which Chin-Na applications you are shown.
Unknown
>Doug McKay (mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
>> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>> looks like aerobics for old people.
I seem to recall reading a book on tai chi by Chen I think, that said
something along the lines of 'the number one problem with Tai Chi as
it is being taught in America is the number of grey haired pony-tailed
masters teaching new age relaxation and stress management.'
thats not it exactly but it is along those points...
QUARK
>> >> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin
na? Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at
all. It looks like aerobics for old people.
Ya know, about every tenth post, you read one that just lowers that IQ about
10 points immediately- you can just feel the brain cells leaking out.
This reminds me of the genius on this list who said tai chi is worthless for
fighting- everybody knows you can't hit somebody moving that slow.
Q. "Duh"
Patrick Scalia
>> >Doug McKay (mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>> >> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
>> >> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
>> >> looks like aerobics for old people.
I believe you are confusing the sole performance of Tai Chi _forms_ with the art of Tai Chi as
a whole. Most persons who think they are involved in Tai Chi are actually learning the forms
only. If a "Shotokan stylist" was in reality taught only the kata, and not the style's
techniques and kumite as well, could you reasonably expect that person to be a
genuine representitive of Shotokan?
My opinions, of course.
Pat
Shane Crilly
: writes:
: > tgi...@bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
: >
: > >> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
: > >> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
: > >> looks like aerobics for old people.
: >
: > something along the lines of 'the number one problem with Tai Chi as
: > it is being taught in America is the number of grey haired pony-tailed
: > masters teaching new age relaxation and stress management.'
: > thats not it exactly but it is along those points...
Properly done tai chi has many similarities to the physical principles of
aikido which derive from juijutsu. In fact it's a lot like juijutsu,
with in the chen style plenty of extremely painful joint locks.
The difference is that they come from different cultures. They have
different purposes. Uishiba, remember was a religious man looking for
self defence that minimized harm to others. General Chen was under no
such contstraint thus there are many techniques in tai chi designed not
for subduing only but for breaking things and doing internal damage.
As for grey haired pony tailed guys in parks who told you they were
masters. There's a guy spamming this news group with "must see" tai chi
and kung fu videos by a "Grandmaster" These videos are in several styles,
as if one could be a great master in several styles, some with
contradictory or at least non-complimentary principles. Actually, there
is in each of these styles one to five grandmasters (allowing for the
politics that sadly are a fact of life in martial arts) In Chen Tai Chi
it is usuallly recogized as Chen Zaobang in Yang it is Yang Zhendao in wu
it Ma Yuleuang (not sure of spelling) These are direct decendants of
founders who worked tirelessly to master these styles. Pony tailed guys
in parks may have never tasted real tai chi. On the other hand their
slow mothion might be deceiving you Perhaps they could knock you block
off. Regardless, the aforementioned leaders of the main styles have left
video records of their art that could be used as reference and there are
really several practioners in North America with a high level of martial
skill. But they must be sought out and usually reside near N.Y, S.F. and
to a smaller extent Vancouver, Oh and Hawaii, home of the reknowned Dong
family. Worth pursuing though you will find something very different
from Aikido or shui Chiao
--
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Shane Crilly, Lightspeed Internet
worldwide advertising and access
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
William H. Johnson
> tgi...@bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
>
> >Doug McKay (mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> >> Is there any Chinese martial art that is similar to Aikido? Is it Chin na?
> >> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
> >> looks like aerobics for old people.
>
> I seem to recall reading a book on tai chi by Chen I think, that said
> something along the lines of 'the number one problem with Tai Chi as
> it is being taught in America is the number of grey haired pony-tailed
> masters teaching new age relaxation and stress management.'
> thats not it exactly but it is along those points...
>
>
grappling style from hell if I ever saw one.
--
William H. Johnson at University of Virginia, Dept. of Cardiology
aka Wild Bill the Tuchuk- Khalizek Stormchild of the Kur
<<<<<<<<<<<]===}wh...@virginia.edu {===[>>>>>>>>>>>
"Minds,like parachutes, work only when open"
Unknown
dr...@ix.netcom.com
posts seem to have been lost in the ether...
Anyways I feel I should explain my position on tai-chi lest anyone
think I have no respect for it.
Quite the contrary actually, from the brief amount of time I had the
privilidge to study it, I found it to be one of the MOST effective
martial arts with regards to self defense and actual combat (far more
realistic and effective than tae kwon do). What people are often
confused about is the manner in which tai-chi is practised...People
see a tai chi master moving in slow motion gently and do not see how
this can ever be applied to a real life situation where the opponent
is obviously not going to wait for you to catch up. This is a very
common misconception which I always had until I actally took tai-chi
(unfortunatly I only managed to take tai chi for a brief while so I
wouldn't even qualify as a rank novice in tai-chi, thus take all I say
with quite a bit of salt) and read william chen's book on it. In
essence it comes down to this, tai chi trains slowly and with great
concentration so that the technique and training becomes embedded in
your reactions thus allowing you to respond with your body relaxed and
more or less "limp" I believe I read an somewhere the metaphor is a
whip. Soft and flexible until the moment of impact when it snaps
releasing its energy.
The second problem many people have with tai chi is (and this is what
the previous message's quote was referring to) its unfortunate
involvement with the new age consciousness movement. Let me say I
have nothing against new age at all, but it has lead to an abundance
of supposed tai chi schools where the teacher has taken a few courses
and read a few books and teaches tai chi as a method of relaxation and
meditation, now this is not an unworthy reason of learning tai chi,
however, and this is the key point to this tirade, it is taught devoid
of the practical and martial application of the form and movement. It
becomes simply a dance where the student lacks a proper focus.
Granted this is what a lot of people want from tai chi (half the
people in my class were more or less upset that the movements had a
combative origin)
Well as I seem to be getting a bit long winded...
David Zhu
gor...@opus.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca (Shane Crilly) writes:
> there
> is in each of these styles one to five grandmasters (allowing for the
> politics that sadly are a fact of life in martial arts) In Chen Tai Chi
> it is usuallly recogized as Chen Zaobang in Yang it is Yang Zhendao in wu
> it Ma Yuleuang (not sure of spelling) These are direct decendants of
> founders who worked tirelessly to master these styles.
Yang Zhendao did not learn Tai Chi from his father, he was too young.
He still has a older brother currently living in Zhengzhou who actually
learned some Tai Chi from his father Yang Cheng Pu. Yang Cheng Pu has
many students, and many of them were very good. Yang Chen Pu's older
brother has only six perhaps seven students, and many believe they are
the true descendant of Yang Tai Chi. Therefore, to suggest that Yang
Zhendao is the grandmaster of Yang Tai Chi because he is the son of
Yang C. P. is preposterous.
David
George Meno
ÆÍÍÍÍ On 01-10-96, Patrick Scalia <Sca...@Intersurf.Com>Refer#: None
wrote to Re: Chinese Version Of Aikido? ÍÍÍ͵
º>> >> Or is it Tai Chi? I don't think of Tai Chi as a *martial* art at all. It
º>> >> looks like aerobics for old people.
ºgenuine representative of Shotokan?
Pat, whomever wrote the above comment didn't know diddly do about Tai
Chi. It's a Kung Fu art, right from it's origins; one just has to
read about how Yang Lu Chan go involved with the Chen family. It
accentuates, mostly grappling, Chin Na moves and throws. It does
practice something called "Cavity Striking" which I believe is their
version of Dim Mak. Unfortunately, here in the U.S. there are only a
few teachers who know the MA applications. A close buddy of mine
teaches Cheng Man Ching's short form and practices some basic push
hands. He won't go beyond that, because of liability reasons. I was
lucky enough to study in Taiwan and my teacher knew all the Kung Fu
moves relating to the art. There is a Sifu Michael Smith teaching MA
applications in Phoenix, AZ. I have a copy of his video and he breaks
down the form and demos a variety of moves for each series of moves.
....////georg...@amega.com...K.Fu& TCC...
... She also made me stop shooting Jehova's Witnesses when they wake me up.
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Iii Lloyd
: ÆÍÍÍÍ On 01-10-96, Patrick Scalia <Sca...@Intersurf.Com>Refer#: None
: ºgenuine representative of Shotokan?
I'm not exactly sure what the original article was about, but...
Check out a video tape by an acquaitance of mine: Gaofei Yan. He should
be coming out with a second tape... (I think. Remember, nothing is ever
official until it has happened.) He teaches Chen Style Tai Chi down here in
FL..
Cavity Striking was one of the names given to pressure points/ nerves
because they exist between bones or muscle and bone, the cavities that
you feel around a muscle.
Also, check out George Dillman's videos and seminars on pressure points !
(Or check out the Dillman Karate International Homepage... download
Quicktime videos of his pressure point knock-outs and see for yourself.)
As far as Mr. Yan... keep an eye out for him and any future releases.
We've shared some notes, and I respect the man's knowledge.