Boztepe challenged by Traditional Wing Chun!
Pete R.
Here's a direct, public slap in the face. This is a letter from a TWC
instructor published in the current (November?) issue of Inside Kung Fu:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Offended by Boztepe Article
Regarding the article about Emin Boztepe and his turbulent past I'd just like
to say first I am offended at the way Mr. Boztepe presents himself.
I am a student of Grandmaster William Cheung and have been with him for 12
years. I really believe Mr. Boztepe is still living off of his attack on
my grandmaster. It amazes me that he can be taken seriously.
First I saw the video of the attack, and it is clear that it was a sneaky
cowardly attempt to discredit Master Cheung.
Wing Chun Kung Fu is Shaolin and it would seem that its practitioners would
carry themselves in the ways of the Shaolin and be above this sort of
publicity. As far apart as Traditional Wing Chun is from the modified it
all should be held in high regard as one family.
I truly believe Master Cheung is a passive man who deserves respect. We,
the instructors of the Traditional Wing Chun Association, were instructed
then not to retaliate against Mr. Boztepe and perhaps cause further
division. However, I would like to say Master Cheung has a group of
instructors including myself dedicated to superior wing chun training from
iron palm to constant sparring.
We would welcome Mr. Boztepe to a public display of his ability. I'm
six feet tall, 190 pounds and I train six hours daily.
Julian Sawyer
Randallstown, MD
--------------------------------------------
This is clearly an insult painting Boztepe as living off an image created
by a "sneaky, cowardly" attack on Cheung, in addition to stating "It amazes
me that he can be taken seriously". This is also clearly a challenge, unless
you think the guy signs all his letters with his height and weight. ;)
Robert Puig
If this is a challenge, I'm sure he'll be up to it. All this guy
has to do is call him up and IT'S ON!!!!
In article <51pqij$o...@fu-berlin.de>, Pet...@hotmail.com says...
Han Hsing Chuong
In article <51q3h6$c...@mari.onr.com>, Robert Puig <rp...@onr.com> wrote:
>If this is a challenge, I'm sure he'll be up to it. All this guy
>has to do is call him up and IT'S ON!!!!
>
Yeah. Sure. Boztepe hasn't shown shit. He'll run like he did from
Rorion, Royce, Renzo and Ralph. bwooook bwoook
Jim
Judo MS
This instructor had better watch out even though boztepe doesn't fight he
is 300/0
in real fights that he doesn't have. He has never lost a challenge match
that he avoids. If you challenge him you will be devestated by his ability
to aviod it and chalk you up as another victory thereby furthering himself
as a legend in his own mind.
Listen guys I really don't care about either side of this argument but I
am really getting tired of it.
Boztepe jumps old men at seminars and sells the video tape. He challenges
active fighters and uses semantics to avoid the results. If he was the
greatest fighter on the planet it would pail in comparison to his ability
to make an asshole out of himself.
MS
Michael Dash
In article <51q3h6$c...@mari.onr.com>, rp...@onr.com says...
>
>If this is a challenge, I'm sure he'll be up to it. All this guy
>has to do is call him up and IT'S ON!!!!
More tap dancing! Why should he call Boztepe when he publicly challenged
him in magazine. The ball is now in Boztepe's court; he either accepts or
is branded a pussy, again!
It's amazing how Boztepe's image has gone from "true warrior/fighter" to
"keeper of the mystical tampon" in such a short period of time. :)
--
Michael Dash
das...@earthlink.net
********************************************************************
*The above statements represent my personal opinion and are not *
*necessarily the opinion of any other individual or organization. *
********************************************************************
Michael Dash
In article <Dxyu5...@ecf.toronto.edu>, chu...@ecf.toronto.edu says...
>>has to do is call him up and IT'S ON!!!!
>>
>
>Rorion, Royce, Renzo and Ralph. bwooook bwoook
>
>Jim
Actually, he has shown shit......CHICKEN-SHIT!!! Bwok bwok bwok,
bwokaaaaaaah! :)
Michael Peter
Great. Now M. Dash is back out of his hole. That's
predictable, given the subject line. Was this topic
really that noteworthy that we had to wake him
back up?
Mike
WT
Michael Peter
Han Hsing Chuong wrote:
>
> In article <51q3h6$c...@mari.onr.com>, Robert Puig <rp...@onr.com> wrote:
> >If this is a challenge, I'm sure he'll be up to it. All this guy
> >has to do is call him up and IT'S ON!!!!
> >
>
> Yeah. Sure. Boztepe hasn't shown shit. He'll run like he did from
> Rorion, Royce, Renzo and Ralph. bwooook bwoook
>
There's only one way to find out, Mr. HIT. Here's the latest seminar
information for Sifu Emin:
Oct 19-20 : New York City, NY *I'll be at this one
Sifu Andrew Draheim (212) 439-4862
Oct 23 : Mesa, AZ
Sifu Keith Sonnenberg (602) 668-9220
Oct 25-26 : Chicago, IL *And maybe this one
Si Hing Mike Adams (708) 368-2425
If he's in Maryland, he can sure as hell make it to either the first
or the last. I doubt this guy will, though. We'll see.
Mike
WT
Hastur108
Of course it's a challenge, you moron! Are you up for a beating?
Michael Peter
Hastur108 wrote:
>
> Of course it's a challenge, you moron! Are you up for a beating?
I've posted Sifu Emin's seminar schedule. If the writer was
serious, I'd imagine he would've called up the AEWTO headquarters
to arrange something. The seminar schedule is in the same
issue of IKF as the letter. It should be no problem to
figure out where Sifu Emin will be.
Mike
Wt
Pete R.
In article <32419F...@concentric.net>, pet...@concentric.net says...
Of course it's noteworthy. I thought it was noteworthy that TWC was
set to engage in a Battlecade tournament vs. WT, but the WT camp doesn't
consider that a challenge per se, and of course doesn't want to do
tournaments anyway. This is a challenge. The reason I find it interesting
is that Boztepe says WT is technically superior to TWC, and Draheim went
quite a step further in saying TWC is practically worthless by comparison.
It's obvious that this is the "party line" of the WT camp, if you will.
There have also been veiled threats of some sort of action being considered
as a result of Marty's recent comments. Meanwhile the TWC camp is openly and
publicly thumbing their noses at Boztepe and company. Given all that if
there is no real response to this, then truly the WT organization has to be
viewed as all talk and no action.
Ebola....The SOUL COLLECTOR
: Michael Peter (pet...@concentric.net) wrote:
:
: Great. Now M. Dash is back out of his hole. That's
: really that noteworthy that we had to wake him
: back up?
Hhahahahhahahahaah! This is GREAT! It's just like old times! All the guys
are back on, and arguing! I LOVE it!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MaY YoU RiSE iN THe VaLLeY oF BoNeS
EBoLA....the SOUL COLLECTOR
\ O /
I
_/ \_
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dash
In article <3242C2...@concentric.net>, pet...@concentric.net says...
During the whole Boztepe/Gracie incident, all of you WT'ers pissed and
moaned about neutral ground for Boztepe (aka Boztepe pussying out of
fighting at the Torrance Academy). Yet, you expect TWC to come to a
Boztepe seminar, which isn't neutral, and illegally challenge Boztepe
when there was a legal venue offered in a NHB fight. More Boztepe
backpedalling. Now wonder he's been nominated "keeper of the mystical
tampon".
Michael Dash
In article <51uip7$c...@fu-berlin.de>, Pet...@hotmail.com says...
>>predictable, given the subject line. Was this topic
>>really that noteworthy that we had to wake him
>>back up?
>>
>
>set to engage in a Battlecade tournament vs. WT, but the WT camp doesn't
>consider that a challenge per se, and of course doesn't want to do
>tournaments anyway. This is a challenge. The reason I find it interesting
>is that Boztepe says WT is technically superior to TWC, and Draheim went
>quite a step further in saying TWC is practically worthless by comparison.
>It's obvious that this is the "party line" of the WT camp, if you will.
>There have also been veiled threats of some sort of action being considered
>as a result of Marty's recent comments. Meanwhile the TWC camp is openly and
>publicly thumbing their noses at Boztepe and company. Given all that if
>there is no real response to this, then truly the WT organization has to be
>viewed as all talk and no action.
Let's just have someone go to a Boztepe seminar and explode a can of
"Vag-Away". That ought to be entertaining. :)
Turiyan gold
das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
>Let's just have someone go to a Boztepe seminar and explode a can of
>"Vag-Away". That ought to be entertaining. :)
Do you have anything to contribue other that flames? I left WWIV to get away from
this mantality DOODZ!
l8tr
Turiyan Gigante Gold ---- adsc...@ix.netcom.com
Best of WWIV 1994
iMALL consultant--- http://www.imall.com
http://www.netcom.com/~adscapes/new.html
http://www.netcom.com/~adscapes/ime.html
Opinions do not reflect those of any other employee of ADSCAPES.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Wealth may corrupt some, but absolute poverty corrupts absolutley."
--Adam Smith
|
Canardo
I accept the challenge!
Please give me call at 212-439-4862 to discuss place, date and terms.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
In article <52hk0p$4...@fu-berlin.de>, das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash)
writes:
>>Of course it's noteworthy. I thought it was noteworthy that TWC was
>>set to engage in a Battlecade tournament vs. WT, but the WT camp doesn't
>>consider that a challenge per se, and of course doesn't want to do
>>tournaments anyway. This is a challenge. The reason I find it
interesting
>>is that Boztepe says WT is technically superior to TWC, and Draheim went
>>quite a step further in saying TWC is practically worthless by
comparison.
>>It's obvious that this is the "party line" of the WT camp, if you will.
>>There have also been veiled threats of some sort of action being
considered
>>as a result of Marty's recent comments. Meanwhile the TWC camp is openly
and
>
>>publicly thumbing their noses at Boztepe and company. Given all that if
>>there is no real response to this, then truly the WT organization has to
be
>>viewed as all talk and no action.
>
Marty
can...@aol.com (Canardo) says:
>I accept the challenge!
>
>Please give me call at 212-439-4862 to discuss place, date and terms.
>
>Sifu Andrew Draheim
Which challenge? Are you willing to fight Sifu Keith Mazza in the
Extreme Fighting, or Sifu Julian Sawyer of Randallstown, MD?
And as far as I recall, both were towards Boztepe. However, if you
want a seperate match, feel free to contact any of the above people.
They'd be more than willing to show you "real wing chun".
Or is all you're up to is ripping down other people's advertisements
off the walls to try and goat them to come and fight you on your
terms?
Marty
WWCKFA
Robert Puig
In article <52k8ft$a...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu says...
>
>can...@aol.com (Canardo) says:
>
>
>>I accept the challenge!
>>
>>Please give me call at 212-439-4862 to discuss place, date and terms.
>>
>>Sifu Andrew Draheim
>
>Which challenge? Are you willing to fight Sifu Keith Mazza in the
>Extreme Fighting, or Sifu Julian Sawyer of Randallstown, MD?
>And as far as I recall, both were towards Boztepe. However, if you
>want a seperate match, feel free to contact any of the above people.
>They'd be more than willing to show you "real wing chun".
>
>Or is all you're up to is ripping down other people's advertisements
>off the walls to try and goat them to come and fight you on your
>terms?
>
>
>
>Marty
>WWCKFA
Marty,
Seems to me that he's accepting the public challenge by Julian Sawyer.
RPuig
WT
David Williams
Marty wrote:
>
> This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
> If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>
> The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
> in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
> But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>
> Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
> obvious.
>
> Marty
> WWCKFA
So, is this message below really from Julian or is it a fake posting?
Subject: BOZTEPE, DRAHEIM:I'm going to test you!
Date: 29 Sep 1996 21:13:17 -0400
From: julia...@aol.com (JulianS315)
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
I will be at Leung Ting's seminar in New York this October. I know that
both Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim will be there. If you attend the
seminar, please bring your video cameras! That is all I will say.
Certainly,
this is more warning than Boztepe gave Sigung Cheung. I have a friend
who studies GJJ and he will also be there. He may also be interested
in doing some "testing."
Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim - I'm going to test you! Are you
ready! One...two....three
Jacques Magill
Florin Cutu wrote:
>
> >This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
> >If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
> >
> >The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
> >in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
> >But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
> >
> >Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
> >obvious.
> >Marty
> >WWCKFA
>
> this newsgroup with hundreds of messages about this earth-shattering "fight"
> and the legendary Sifus of Wing Chum ...
>
> > For all the world to see
> :-) Do you really think the fight fans have ever heard about these guys?
>
> If you wing-chunners are so hot to fight then how come you never step into
> the ring "For all the world to see" ? It's really simple. Go take on a
> kickboxer or a Thai boxer -- I guess it fits your style and they'll put on a
> good fight without any ridiculous preconditions or lawyer talk. Only then
> you'll get the respect of the fight fans. And if this is a just a private
> matter between those two guys why do you make it public on the newsgroup?
that is the way to go
-jacques
Marty
Florin Cutu
Turiyan gold
flo...@psyborg.cog.brown.edu (Florin Cutu) wrote:
>If you wing-chunners are so hot to fight then how come you never step into
>the ring "For all the world to see" ? It's really simple. Go take on a
>kickboxer or a Thai boxer -- I guess it fits your style and they'll put on a
>good fight without any ridiculous preconditions or lawyer talk. Only then
>you'll get the respect of the fight fans. And if this is a just a private
>matter between those two guys why do you make it public on the newsgroup?
Its the wing tsun AWETO guys that wont fight in public. There have been TWC Vs. Muay
tai fights in HK.
Turiyan Gigante Gold ---- adsc...@ix.netcom.com
Best of WWIV 1994
iMALL consultant--- http://www.imall.com
http://www.netcom.com/~adscapes/new.html
http://www.netcom.com/~adscapes/ime.html
Opinions do not reflect those of any other employee of ADSCAPES.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Famous last words: "I hate Sicilians."
-- Benito Mussolini
|
Michael Peter
Marty wrote:
>
> This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
> If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>
> The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
> in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
> But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>
> Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
> obvious.
>
Whatever. I've been holding onto this for about 2 weeks now, guess
I should've posted it earlier. This is in response to Julian
Sawyer's letter, not Marty's (above).
------------------------------------------------------------------
22 September 1996
To : Instructors of the TWC Organization
From: Jeffrey Webb, Austin Wing Tsun Academy
Re: Challenges to Dai Sifu Emin Boztepe
To whom it may concern,
Dai Sifu Emin Boztepe would like to convey the following points
to any would-be TWC challengers:
1) Anyone wishing to challenge him may contact our Internet
Liason, Michael Peter (pet...@concentric.net) and receive
Dai Sifu Emin’s seminar schedule. Due to the inordinant
amount of half-hearted challenges, Dai Sifu has little time
to waste on name-calling, insults, and a war of words over
the Internet. Contacting Michael Peter is the surest way to
schedule time at any of Dai Sifu Emin’s numerous seminars around
the country.
2) The article which some people seem to have taken exception to in
Inside Kung Fu, was given in a candid manner, however, Dai Sifu
Emin disavows responsibility for any sensationalism which magazines
use in the headlines to attract readers attention. His policy is
to let the past remain in the past, but will not back down to a
legitimate arrangement to see a "public display of his skills" at
his seminars.
3) Members of the TWC Organization need to remember that the fight
between Dai Sifu Emin and William Cheung was between these two
individuals and that if Mr. Cheung is interested in a rematch, Dai
Sifu Emin will be happy to oblige him directly.
Any further inquiries are to be directed to Michael Peter (via e-mail
address pet...@concentric.net) or to the headquarters of the AEWTO in
Beverly Hills, CA (213) 666-1635.
Sincerely,
Jeffrey Webb
Austin Wing Tsun Academy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only comment: I've posted Sifu Emin's seminar schedule on here
repeatedly, but I guess mapping that to a calendar is difficult.
Let me help:
Oct 19-20 : New York City, NY
Sifu Andrew Draheim (212) 439-4862
Oct 23 : Mesa, AZ
Sifu Keith Sonnenberg (602) 668-9220
Oct 25-26 : Chicago, IL
Si Hing Mike Adams (708) 368-2425
Oct 27 : San Antonio,TX
Si Hing William Parker (210) 822-0035
Notice anything? Each seminar is just a few days apart, in
widely dispered areas of the nation. After this run, Sifu Emin
will jet over to Europe to teach a similar seminar schedule. He
is extremely busy, to say the least, and the AEWTO is priority
number one. If all you want to do is get a letter printed in
IKF, fine. Then I can understand making the likelihood of
a fight happen as difficult as possible. But I don't expect
Sifu Emin to cancel a seminar, in fact I'd be ticked if he
did. If you are serious, then *be* serious. Otherwise, save
your breath, your keystrokes, and whatever tally points you
seem to be keeping.
Mike
WT
Michael Peter
David Williams wrote:
>
> So, is this message below really from Julian or is it a fake posting?
>
> Subject: BOZTEPE, DRAHEIM:I'm going to test you!
> Date: 29 Sep 1996 21:13:17 -0400
> From: julia...@aol.com (JulianS315)
> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
> Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>
> I will be at Leung Ting's seminar in New York this October. I know that
> both Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim will be there. If you attend the
> seminar, please bring your video cameras! That is all I will say.
> Certainly,
> this is more warning than Boztepe gave Sigung Cheung. I have a friend
> who studies GJJ and he will also be there. He may also be interested
> in doing some "testing."
>
> Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim - I'm going to test you! Are you
> ready! One...two....three
Neat again! I will be attending this seminar, so we'll see if this
is real or not.
Mike
WT
Michael Peter
Turiyan gold wrote:
>
> flo...@psyborg.cog.brown.edu (Florin Cutu) wrote:
>
> >If you wing-chunners are so hot to fight then how come you never step into
> >the ring "For all the world to see" ? It's really simple. Go take on a
> >kickboxer or a Thai boxer -- I guess it fits your style and they'll put on a
> >good fight without any ridiculous preconditions or lawyer talk. Only then
> >you'll get the respect of the fight fans. And if this is a just a private
> >matter between those two guys why do you make it public on the newsgroup?
>
> Its the wing tsun AWETO guys that wont fight in public. There have been TWC Vs. Muay
> tai fights in HK.
>
Neat! There've been WT v. Muay Thai in HK, as well, and other WT v.
<insert
art here>. What's your point (Do you ever make one)?
Mike
WT
Pete R.
In article <52m89r$6...@mari.onr.com>, rp...@onr.com says...
The public challenge was to Boztepe, since he makes all the waves.
Draheim's lineage is the same as Boztepe's, he's not a student of
Boztepe's and as such normally can't accept on his behalf. However
I'm sure something could be arranged, you have to start somewhere. ;)
I do give Draheim full credit for his response so far.
Michael Dash
In article <52niuj$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, adsc...@ix.netcom.com
says...
>
>flo...@psyborg.cog.brown.edu (Florin Cutu) wrote:
>
>>If you wing-chunners are so hot to fight then how come you never step into
>>the ring "For all the world to see" ? It's really simple. Go take on a
>>kickboxer or a Thai boxer -- I guess it fits your style and they'll put on
a
>>good fight without any ridiculous preconditions or lawyer talk. Only then
>>you'll get the respect of the fight fans. And if this is a just a private
>>matter between those two guys why do you make it public on the newsgroup?
>
>Its the wing tsun AWETO guys that wont fight in public. There have been TWC
Vs.
> Muay
>tai fights in HK.
Not true! Rumor has it that Boztepe and Leung Ting were seen fighting
over the last box of tampons in a convenience store late one evening.... :)
Michael Dash
In article <324FC8...@concentric.net>, pet...@concentric.net says...
There they go again with the "meet me at my seminar" bullshit. I
remember when the Gracies wanted Boztepe to just enter the UFC,
along with all the other people that wanted a shot at Royce, but
Boztepe wined and moaned. Using Boztepe's logic, if he really
wanted to fight a Gracie, why not just show up at a seminar, like
he expects his challengers to do. Answer; it's illegal and he's
relying on the fact that most people don't want to go to jail or
have legal hassles. Those who are willing to risk jail will be
probably be jumped by the hordes of Wing Tchump followers at the
seminar. Offering hsi seminars is nothing more than a clever ploy
to avoid any challenges.
>2) The article which some people seem to have taken exception to in
> Inside Kung Fu, was given in a candid manner, however, Dai Sifu
> Emin disavows responsibility for any sensationalism which magazines
> use in the headlines to attract readers attention. His policy is
> to let the past remain in the past, but will not back down to a
> legitimate arrangement to see a "public display of his skills" at
> his seminars.
Oh please! They only quote what he says. If he's so illiterate, then
he should shut up or suffer the consequences.
>3) Members of the TWC Organization need to remember that the fight
> between Dai Sifu Emin and William Cheung was between these two
> individuals and that if Mr. Cheung is interested in a rematch, Dai
> Sifu Emin will be happy to oblige him directly.
>
>Any further inquiries are to be directed to Michael Peter (via e-mail
>address pet...@concentric.net) or to the headquarters of the AEWTO in
>Beverly Hills, CA (213) 666-1635.
Boztepe has a whole office dedicated to help him backpedal out of
challenges.
Nice excuses! So now, Boztepe is too busy to fight. Then why is
everyone in your cult presenting him as someone who will fight anyone
at anytime, when we know this isn't true. He won't "fight anyone" but
he'll "be in flight from anyone". :)
Desmond Chan
Turiyan gold (adsc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: flo...@psyborg.cog.brown.edu (Florin Cutu) wrote:
: >If you wing-chunners are so hot to fight then how come you never step into
: >the ring "For all the world to see" ? It's really simple. Go take on a
: >kickboxer or a Thai boxer -- I guess it fits your style and they'll put on a
: >good fight without any ridiculous preconditions or lawyer talk. Only then
: >you'll get the respect of the fight fans. And if this is a just a private
: >matter between those two guys why do you make it public on the newsgroup?
: Its the wing tsun AWETO guys that wont fight in public. There have been TWC Vs. Muay
: tai fights in HK.
When??
Regards,
D Chan
: Turiyan Gigante Gold ---- adsc...@ix.netcom.com
: |
Canardo
In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty)
writes:
>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>
>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see.
Not
>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously
suggested.
>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>
>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>obvious.
Just for the reocrd:
1. TWC challenges us, not vice versa. Just to make sure that the public is
aware that we are not the agressor.
2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
mentioned endless times here on the net. Marty is very well aware of that.
For this reason I regard his statement in the third sentence as an elegant
try to get around the actual fight.
3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
fighter of his choice.
Having said that:
We are willing to arrange a fight on October 19th or 20th (the weekend of
the Grandmaster Leung Ting seminar in NY). We will try to do our best to
turn around any disclaimers and waivers of liability within one week.
We guarantee you not to sue you and that you can leave the place without
our interference.
Victor Parlatti from TWC has my home phone number. I asked him to either
have a beer and straighten things out as intelligent human beings (and
neighbours), or to fight - he called back to basically indicate that he is
to afraid too face me. But anyway, there is no excuse that he does not
have my number. (And I am pretty sure that he has my orignal message still
on tape somewhere, since I left it on his answering machine.)
You can also leave a message on my voice mail at 212-439-4862 or send a
fax to 212-754-0967.
Please let me know where we can send this acceptence of your challenge
with certified mail. So that there is no excuse for you that you did not
receive it in time.
A copy of this posting will also be sent to IKF.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Marty
can...@aol.com (Canardo) says:
>In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty)
>writes:
>
>>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>>
>>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see.
>Not
>>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously
>suggested.
>>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>>
>>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>>obvious.
>
>Just for the reocrd:
>
>1. TWC challenges us, not vice versa. Just to make sure that the public is
>aware that we are not the agressor.
Any more than Sigung Cheung was the agressor for the Germany ambush.
It was Emin that came to challenge him. Not the reverse.
>2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>mentioned endless times here on the net.
Actually, no. You've only stated that you don't fight in tournaments.
Nothing about not fighting in public. This is not a tournament.
>Marty is very well aware of that.
>For this reason I regard his statement in the third sentence as an elegant
>try to get around the actual fight.
The only one trying to get around the actual fight is you, but insisting
on a condition that you know full well would not be acceptable. It's
been stated several times already, neutral ground.
>3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out. Preferably,
since you wish to fight as well, we will supply Sifu Keith Mazza for you
as well.
Since you wish to fight as well, we would like a three person match so
there is no doubt in anyone's mind. Perhaps I can persuade Sigung Cheung
to match against Ting if Ting wishes to come out and play?
>4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
>fighter of his choice.
Again a condition which you know full well will not be acceptable.
We wouldn't accept you fighting in his place as was personally posted
here, so why the heck would it be alright for him to send anyone else?
Again Drahiem, you're stepping around the issue. Boztepe-Julian, on
neutral ground, you-Mazza on neutral ground. It's as simple as that.
>Having said that:
>
>We are willing to arrange a fight on October 19th or 20th (the weekend of
>the Grandmaster Leung Ting seminar in NY). We will try to do our best to
>turn around any disclaimers and waivers of liability within one week.
>We guarantee you not to sue you and that you can leave the place without
>our interference.
Neutral ground. Neutral ground, neutral ground. There, I've said it
several more times.
>Victor Parlatti from TWC has my home phone number. I asked him to either
>have a beer and straighten things out as intelligent human beings (and
>neighbours), or to fight - he called back to basically indicate that he is
>to afraid too face me.
Ignoring you and saying "Leave my fucking flyers alone" in response is
being afraid? Walk in there and challenge him, and see how afraid he is.
>But anyway, there is no excuse that he does not
>have my number. (And I am pretty sure that he has my orignal message still
>on tape somewhere, since I left it on his answering machine.)
What has this got to do with anything?
>You can also leave a message on my voice mail at 212-439-4862 or send a
>fax to 212-754-0967.
We have your number. However, it is Boztepe who should be contacting,
since he is the one the challenge was adressed too. But you seem to
have a problem understanding this simple matter.
I will be contacting Sifu Keith Mazza to see if he will accept your
challenge (which I have no doubts that he will).
>
>Please let me know where we can send this acceptence of your challenge
>with certified mail. So that there is no excuse for you that you did not
>receive it in time.
Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
Fax is listed as well.
>
>A copy of this posting will also be sent to IKF.
I'm glad. If the whole world can't see a fight, they can at least see you
sidestepping around the issue.
>Sifu Andrew Draheim
Marty
WWCKFA
Rick Shank
In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>
>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>
>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>obvious.
>
What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I will be at Leung Ting's seminar in New York this October. I know that
both Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim will be there. If you attend the
seminar, please bring your video cameras! That is all I will say.
Certainly,
this is more warning than Boztepe gave Sigung Cheung. I have a friend
who studies GJJ and he will also be there. He may also be interested
in doing some "testing."
Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim - I'm going to test you! Are you
ready! One...two....three
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
First he claims he is coming to the seminar to test Emin and Andrew and
now you claim he doesn't want a seminar and doesn't want Emin. Make up
your mind.
Rick
--
Disclaimer: Not only are these NOT necessarily the opinions of the great company
I work for - AMD, they may not even be the opinions of this author. If you are
smart, you will take this post as the scribblings of a madman and ignore it.
"I know NUSSING, absolutely nussing." Sgt. Schultz
Michael Dash
One of the biggest problems in setting up a fight like this is (1)
negotiating all the detail, and (2) Boztepe and Ting are pussies. Not to
mention that a "fight to the finish" is quite illegal and such an event
could turn into a brawl resulting in some arrests. This is why having a
sanctioned third party (such as a NHB PPV) establish location, travel ,etc,
is the only way to make these things happen.
TWC has already made attempts to have TWC vs. WT fights on Extreme
Fighting, but Boztepe wussed out. TWC knows, as well as I do, that Boztepe
will never agree to enter into a fight where he can't sneak up on his
opponent from behind. So, instead of dealing with Draheim's mindless
drivel, I would suggest that the TWC guys make arrangements with a NHB
promoter to sponsor the fight(s) then advertise in the martial arts press
that they will be available on PPV on a particular night to fight WT or to
show the world that WT is afraid to face them. This way the mindless
negotiating can stop. You can't make the WT guys fight TWC, but TWC can
make themselves available in a very public manner, such that WT's failure
to show up will be worse than an actual defeat.
I think my idea is better than arguing with Draheim. What do you think
Marty?
Marty
ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>>
>>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>>
>>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
>>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
>>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>>
>>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>>obvious.
>>
>
>
>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
The post by Julian was called Sarcasm.
My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
announced, or Drahiem?
>First he claims he is coming to the seminar to test Emin and Andrew and
>now you claim he doesn't want a seminar and doesn't want Emin. Make up
>your mind.
He never claimed he wanted a seminar. It's called being sarcastic.
As in showing how much a coward and slimeball Boztepe was. Now
it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
Bullshit!! Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
Germany then when he said "After the seminar"? Emin chose the time and
place and who then, and he was the challenger. Sorry guys, not this time.
Your doublestandards aren't going to work.
>Rick
Marty
WWCKFA
Michael Strange
Marty wrote:
> Any more than Sigung Cheung was the agressor for the Germany ambush.
> It was Emin that came to challenge him. Not the reverse.
Okay, first off...William Cheung was quoted in an artical as saying that
he was the best there was, only he had the true wing chun, and he was
willing to fight any time, anywhere, and anyone to prove it...sounds to
me like he was asking for a confrontation.
Secondly, (and I heard all of this before I even met Sifu Boztepe, or
had seen Wing Tsun) There is the story of how William went to a WT
school in Germany, sat in the Head Mans chair and asked if anyone was
going to do anything about it. Since Sijo Leung Ting and SiGung
Kernspecht were not there, it seems that he was looking to fight lower
ranked people. It was after those two incidents that Sifu Boztepe went
to visit William, and give him the fight he wanted: A lower ranked
opponent (Sifu was not a master yet), anytime (the seminar), anywhere
(the seminar).
> Actually, no. You've only stated that you don't fight in tournaments.
> Nothing about not fighting in public. This is not a tournament.
True, we are told not to fight in tournaments. However, as to Sifu not
fighting in the UFC...I would not let someone I wanted to fight make a
dime off of the thing. Why fight someone in thier tournamet, where they
will make possibly millions off of, win or loose. And if they lost, it
would just be another sad excuse on their part...Royce would have had
low blood sugar again...
> The only one trying to get around the actual fight is you, but insisting
> on a condition that you know full well would not be acceptable. It's
> been stated several times already, neutral ground.
If you guys are still so pissed that Emin Beat William at his
seminar...why not return the favor. You talk about being jumped by all
of the "Wing Tsun Cult Members". Sifu went to Germany with a video guy,
that is all...and he fought your master, taught him a lesson, and walked
away. He had no fear of what the crowd would do. Show some spine
yourselves. He has said that he will fight...so...SHOW UP!!!!
> And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
and weapons...you know...a duel. Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
> since you wish to fight as well, we will supply Sifu Keith Mazza for
See...now you are talking!!! bring friends...you guys will need someone
to carry you out.
> Since you wish to fight as well, we would like a three person match so
> there is no doubt in anyone's mind. Perhaps I can persuade Sigung Cheung
> to match against Ting if Ting wishes to come out and play?
After a student of his beat your SiGung...I hardly think he would
*lower* himself to fight him. You know, you have to prove you are
worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
internet is not earning the right.
> >4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
> >fighter of his choice.
>
> Again a condition which you know full well will not be acceptable.
But is what is commonly acepted since the middle ages. You challenge, I
choose time, place, weapons, and my fighter. Quite common among nobel
houses. Since we are talking about the Elite of our systems...they
pretty much qualify, do they not?
> We wouldn't accept you fighting in his place as was personally posted
> here, so why the heck would it be alright for him to send anyone else?
> Again Drahiem, you're stepping around the issue. Boztepe-Julian, on
> neutral ground, you-Mazza on neutral ground. It's as simple as that.
Boztepe-Cheung at Cheung's seminar. Julian-Boztepe at Boztepe's seminar
seems right to me...
Or are you guys already trying to back out of it?
> >We are willing to arrange a fight on October 19th or 20th (the weekend of
>
> Neutral ground. Neutral ground, neutral ground. There, I've said it
> several more times.
>
Then how about on the 26th of October in the Chicago Seminar? I will be
there...could bring video camera...love to see it...as it would be in
SiSok Mike Adams's School (or location of his choosing) it would be more
neutral than at the NY seminar...but still it will have to be a seminar
to balance the karma scales. Yep, you guys really NEED to fight at a
seminar...that way you can try to set things right again. Anyway, Sifu
is so busy, that he had to cut the Chicago Seminar down to only one
day...We suffer because of his busy schedule...why should we suffer more
so that you wannabes can get beat up? Come to a seminar, so we can
enjoy Sifu Wacking on you. :)
> Ignoring you and saying "Leave my fucking flyers alone" in response is
> being afraid? Walk in there and challenge him, and see how afraid he
Why? You guys have waited, what 9 years? to challenge Sifu...now let us
all see what you are made of...you want him...you know where he will
be...when he will be there...what is the damn problem?
> >You can also leave a message on my voice mail at 212-439-4862 or send a
> >fax to 212-754-0967.
>
> We have your number. However, it is Boztepe who should be contacting,
> since he is the one the challenge was adressed too. But you seem to
> have a problem understanding this simple matter.
Sifu travels extensivly. You HAVE to talk to someone here.
Therefore...you call SiSok Draheim at the above numbers...Did you mom
drop you on your head alot?
> I will be contacting Sifu Keith Mazza to see if he will accept your
> challenge (which I have no doubts that he will).
Sounds like you are getting ready to back out in masse...
> Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
> as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
> Fax is listed as well.
Well...Any talk we have is with Cheung alone...we only need to talk to
him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
Sound familiar?
> >A copy of this posting will also be sent to IKF.
>
> I'm glad. If the whole world can't see a fight, they can at least see you
> sidestepping around the issue.
What side stepping? We Accepted, said where we were willing to fight,
and said come on down. I guess that would be considered side stepping
if you were never really serious.
Michael
Canardo
>My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
>announced, or Drahiem?
The only two guys authorized to represent Sifu Emin Boztepe on the
Internet are Mike Peter and I. So easy is that. Most of the time I leave
it up to Mike, though. since his English is much better than mine.
> Now
>it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
>challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
>Bullshit!! Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
>Germany then when he said "After the seminar"? Emin chose the time and
>place and who then, and he was the challenger. Sorry guys, not this
time.
>Your doublestandards aren't going to work.
Cheung said he is going to prove it to anybody at any time anywhere. He
could not back that up. And in addition, you don't want us to repeat your
strategy and claim that we couldn't fight because
1. we were afraid that the American police would put us into prison for
months without a fair trial. So we did not really fight.
2. TWC bribed the press to force us to wear shoes which are tradional but
not suitable for a fight. So we did not really fight.
3. TWC sent in at least 16 guys. We were forced to fight every single one
of them. So we did not fight.
4. The same 16 guys waited until we were standing exactly at that point
were the bribed press spoiled some oil, so that our stance would not work
anymore. So we did not fight.
No, Marty, you don't want that because you experienced yourself how good
one can get along with a bunch of those kind of lies.You don't want that.
Do you Marty? You want a clean fight with no excuses. So do we. I just
want to note that you refuse to contact me to set up such a clean fight.
In addition you claim in earlier postings that TWC considers it as Dog
behaviour to jump into a seminar and challenge. So if you don't do that,
and you don't want to set up a clean fight. What is the alternative?
Please let me know. I just want to make sure that I don't miss it just
because I did not know about it and wasn't there.
Or are you actually working with double standards?
I repeat my offer. Contact me and we set something up. Or come to the
seminar in NY. In any case: we are waiting for your action.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Canardo
In article <52scua$b...@fu-berlin.de>, Pet...@hotmail.com (Pete R.) writes:
>can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>
>>2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>>mentioned endless times here on the net.
>
>Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
>he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
>be there. He also cancelled out of one of the Police Academy dates
>because he couldn't get together his camera crew and reporters in time,
>or something to that effect. Sarcasm aside, in this case I would say
>you have no choice but to fight in public.
a.) The Gracie conflict has nothing to do with it. Sifu Emin's challenge
was a counter challenge to the Royce's. However, being the head of the
A-EWTO he wanted to fight the head of the Gracie familiy and not the
little brother.
b.) But that is a different thing. And you most likely do not have the
the necessary background information to make a judgement.
c.) Argument b.) is proven by your statement about why Sifu Emin cancelled
the fight at the LA police academy. But I will not go into detail here
since this is a totally different story.
>
>>3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
>
>HA!!! Now this is really getting amusing. Since Boztepe challenged
>the Gracies, they too should have had the right to choose the place
>and date. They offered their school and several other places, but
Boztepe
>then came back with demands about neutral ground.
See above.
> You're really stepping
>in it now. If Boztepe could insist on neutral ground and the WT people
>proclaimed his right to do so, then you have no argument why TWC cannot
>do the same. Under the circumstances the only proper course is to
>choose a neutral location.
I would do that but I cannot, since TWC refuses to contact me. How should
I know that they regard some place as a neutral place? So please call me.
I want this to be over within two weeks. I don't have the time to kid
around. I have a school to run, that is more important than dealing with
some want-to-bes.
>>4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
>>fighter of his choice.
>
>This is truly incredible. Boztepe did not wish to accord this right to
>Rorion. I'm sure he now claims that Rorion chickened out. Well, there
>are no excuses to be had here.
See above.
> You and Boztepe have both been
>extremely vocal about the superiority of WT, have made veiled threats
>about putting dire things in motion, and you personally have even gone
>so far as to say TWC is worthless by comparison to WT.
I said it is ALMOST HOMICIDE to teach TWC. The rest is interpretation.
> Obviously TWC is
>tired of it all, and has called your bluff. You must willingly show your
>cards, or fold and lose all credibility. Find a neutral location in New
>York, bring lots of cameras, and let's see if you can back up your words.
>May the best win.
See above. How will I know that TWC regards a place as neutral when they
refuse to talk to me about it?
>>Victor Parlatti from TWC has my home phone number. I asked him to either
>>have a beer and straighten things out as intelligent human beings (and
>>neighbours), or to fight - he called back to basically indicate that he
is
>>to afraid too face me.
>
>I'm sure the only thing that needed straightening out was your own
>behavior, since everything was fine before you moved in. In any case
>Victor Parlatti has not been designated as a fighter in this challenge,
>and you do not have the right to choose who you will fight in the whole
>TWC organization. You insulted the art, and accepted the challenge, you
>must face one of the fighters chosen to represent TWC.
No comment necessary.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Pete R.
can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>mentioned endless times here on the net.
Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
be there. He also cancelled out of one of the Police Academy dates
because he couldn't get together his camera crew and reporters in time,
or something to that effect. Sarcasm aside, in this case I would say
you have no choice but to fight in public.
>3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
HA!!! Now this is really getting amusing. Since Boztepe challenged
the Gracies, they too should have had the right to choose the place
and date. They offered their school and several other places, but Boztepe
then came back with demands about neutral ground. You're really stepping
in it now. If Boztepe could insist on neutral ground and the WT people
proclaimed his right to do so, then you have no argument why TWC cannot
do the same. Under the circumstances the only proper course is to
choose a neutral location.
>4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
>fighter of his choice.
This is truly incredible. Boztepe did not wish to accord this right to
Rorion. I'm sure he now claims that Rorion chickened out. Well, there
are no excuses to be had here. You and Boztepe have both been
extremely vocal about the superiority of WT, have made veiled threats
about putting dire things in motion, and you personally have even gone
so far as to say TWC is worthless by comparison to WT. Obviously TWC is
tired of it all, and has called your bluff. You must willingly show your
cards, or fold and lose all credibility. Find a neutral location in New
York, bring lots of cameras, and let's see if you can back up your words.
May the best win.
>Victor Parlatti from TWC has my home phone number. I asked him to either
Rick Shank
In article <52s10h$7...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>
>ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>
>
>>In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>>>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>>>
>>>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
>>>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
>>>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>>>
>>>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>>>obvious.
>>>
>>
>>
>>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
>>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
>
>
>The post by Julian was called Sarcasm.
>
Forgive me. I thought he was serious. Is the whole challenge sarcasm too?
>My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
>announced, or Drahiem?
>
I haven't seen anyone speaking for Emin. I think Emin speaks for himself.
I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>
>>First he claims he is coming to the seminar to test Emin and Andrew and
>>now you claim he doesn't want a seminar and doesn't want Andrew. Make up
>>your mind.
>
>He never claimed he wanted a seminar. It's called being sarcastic.
Well your second sentence negates the validity of your first sentence.
He made the claim and you claim he was being sarcastic. I can accept
that. I can't accept 'he didn't say that but when he did, he was being
sarcastic.' There is something illogical about that. I'll just take
your word for it that your second sentence is the bottom line.
>As in showing how much a coward and slimeball Boztepe was. Now
>it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
>challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
>Bullshit!!
I'll agree that it is a little inconsistent. I can see the need for neutral
territory on both sides. Perhaps you can work this out. Hint: try not
to set it up in a police station. Emin bit that worm once before. I doubt
he'll fall for it again.
>Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
>Germany then when he said "After the seminar"?
Courtesy? Are you fighting or playing chess? Wing chun is suppose to be
for self defense, not tournament play. You're lucky Emin didn't have any
intention of hurting William Cheung. Emin took a big risk that day. If
he hadn't been good enough, William Cheung could have very well killed
Emin. As it was, Emin toyed with William Cheung. I would suggest you
guys consider that before you come running after someone who bested your
grandmaster when he was a 5 year student. Emin is now a master.
>Emin chose the time and
>place and who then, and he was the challenger.
You have the same option I believe. By the way, you may want to suggest
to your guys to bring information for notification of next of kin.
Rick - just my opinion. BTW, I don't speak for WT any more than you speak
for your alma mater. I just practice the art. I'm not in charge of
it and the people in charge have not selected me to speak for them.
Marty
ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>>Marty Says:
>>>Rick Says:
>>>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
>>>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
>>
>>
>>The post by Julian was called Sarcasm.
>>
>
>Forgive me. I thought he was serious. Is the whole challenge sarcasm too?
Nice try at double talk.
>>My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
>>announced, or Drahiem?
>>
>
>I haven't seen anyone speaking for Emin.
You might want to take a look back at posts then. Jeff said all
correspondance between us and Emin in the future should be sent through
him. However, now Drahiem is speaking for Emin as well.
>I think Emin speaks for himself.
>I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
No, please look above. Actually, we have yet to hear from Emin himself.
>>As in showing how much a coward and slimeball Boztepe was. Now
>>it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
>>challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
>>Bullshit!!
>
>I'll agree that it is a little inconsistent. I can see the need for neutral
>territory on both sides. Perhaps you can work this out. Hint: try not
>to set it up in a police station. Emin bit that worm once before. I doubt
>he'll fall for it again.
If it were up to me, it would be in a back alley somewhere with video cams
set up at each end. But this isn't my call.
>>Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
>>Germany then when he said "After the seminar"?
>
>Courtesy? Are you fighting or playing chess? Wing chun is suppose to be
>for self defense, not tournament play.
Then you've just negated Drahiem's claim an call for courtesy.
>You're lucky Emin didn't have any
>intention of hurting William Cheung.
Or that Sigung Cheung didn't have any intention of hurting Emin.
>Emin took a big risk that day.
Or so he wishes people to believe.
>If
>he hadn't been good enough, William Cheung could have very well killed
>Emin.
If it had abeen a fair fight in neutral territory, he very well would have.
Just like I'm sure others are considering.
>As it was, Emin toyed with William Cheung.
If toyed means stalling for time while trying to get film for video shots
for later editing, then I guess so.
>I would suggest you
>guys consider that before you come running after someone who bested your
>grandmaster when he was a 5 year student.
But see, that's the thing. Most people with an ounce of reality induced
thinking don't believe he was bested. There's no conclusive proof. Just
some shoddy uncomplete video footage. Which is why it's still a
controversey to this day.
>Emin is now a master.
Bater.
>>Emin chose the time and
>>place and who then, and he was the challenger.
>
>You have the same option I believe.
No. Please re-read the posts. Drahiem is of the firm conviction that your
side should be choosing the time and place.
> By the way, you may want to suggest
>to your guys to bring information for notification of next of kin.
(waves fingers back and forth) ewwwwwwwww...scarrrrrry!
>Rick - just my opinion. BTW, I don't speak for WT any more than you speak
> for your alma mater. I just practice the art. I'm not in charge of
> it and the people in charge have not selected me to speak for them.
I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
Marty
WWCKFA
Marty
Michael Strange <mstr...@voyageronline.net> says:
>Marty wrote:
>
>> Any more than Sigung Cheung was the agressor for the Germany ambush.
>> It was Emin that came to challenge him. Not the reverse.
>
>Okay, first off...William Cheung was quoted in an artical as saying that
>he was the best there was, only he had the true wing chun, and he was
>willing to fight any time, anywhere, and anyone to prove it...sounds to
>me like he was asking for a confrontation.
This is incorrect. Please do a little more research. That's propoganda
from the WT camp.
>Secondly, (and I heard all of this before I even met Sifu Boztepe, or
>had seen Wing Tsun) There is the story of how William went to a WT
>school in Germany, sat in the Head Mans chair and asked if anyone was
>going to do anything about it. Since Sijo Leung Ting and SiGung
>Kernspecht were not there, it seems that he was looking to fight lower
>ranked people.
This is incorrect. Sigun Cheung had never been to Germany before, except
for a trip 25 or so years ago across Europe (non-wing chun related) that
toured through Germany 1 or two days.
He was called to add the seminar in Germany the last minute in fact, didn't
even have time to get a work visa.
Boy, you guys are just making more and more stuff up.
>It was after those two incidents that Sifu Boztepe went
>to visit William, and give him the fight he wanted: A lower ranked
>opponent (Sifu was not a master yet), anytime (the seminar), anywhere
>(the seminar).
More hogwash.
You might want to go back and check your facts. There was a challenge
between Ting and Sigung Cheung, which is what was asked for. Not lower
level then Ting already was. And then one of you guys changed that to
say "Oh, he was just answering the challenge to Ting." And now it's
that he was answering some magical challenge where Sigung Cheung suddenly
popped up in the middle of Germany from Australia sat in a chair of some
no-name WT school and wanted a fight? Geeze man, you guys don't realize
how sophmoric you sound.
He'd walk right through Ting's front door of his house before he'd waste
his time going to a no-name branch of Ting's in Germany.
>> The only one trying to get around the actual fight is you, but insisting
>> on a condition that you know full well would not be acceptable. It's
>> been stated several times already, neutral ground.
>
>If you guys are still so pissed that Emin Beat William at his
>seminar...why not return the favor.
Bzzzt. Try again. If you were even a smidgen up to date on this, you'd
know that we (as do others outside our organization) don't even consider
anything to have happened to Sigung Cheung. Didn't have a scratch on
him, continued with the seminar, and left the next day going on with
his seminar tour.
What we're pissed at is the cowardly and slimeball way it was done.
>You talk about being jumped by all
>of the "Wing Tsun Cult Members".
Where?!?! Get the facts straight. We said he had people in waiting. And he
did, even by his own admission.
>Sifu went to Germany with a video guy,
>that is all
That convinces me you're just spouting propoganda like a little underling.
Try and do a little research on you own story. Emin said he was there
with a cameraman and a second to watch his back.
Our claim is that it didn't just stop with the second. There were others
"watching his back" as well.
>...and he fought your master
Two people need to be making an effort to beat each other up to call it
a fight. Sigung Cheung did pure self defense. When they both slipped
and fell to the ground, he went right to his back and laid there using
Emin as coverage so as not to expose his own body to whatever Emin's
"backup" had planned. Then he neutralized at the elbows and baited
time until Emin got up and ran off.
>, taught him a lesson,
Yah, never underestimate how low a dog like Emin and Ting can stoop.
>and walked
>away.
Ran out when the whistle blew, as did the rest of his "backup".
>He had no fear of what the crowd would do.
Why would he have fear from his own people?
>Show some spine
>yourselves.
We will be. Emin's. And Ting's, and Drahiem's if they get their act together
and quit trying to sidestep. It's like you people can only fight where you
have a bunch or yoursleves there as well.
>He has said that he will fight...so...SHOW UP!!!!
Blah blah blah.
>> And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
>Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
>and weapons...you know...a duel.
Whose middle ages? More german "warrior spirit" crap that the WT people seem
to be so fond of? Try following some of your own advice then little man.
emin challenged, he picked the place and time last time. Ain't going to happen
again. This time, it'll be mutual agreement for a NEUTRAL place.
>Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
Getting a lot of echo in that gap between your ears, eh? Or is that just the
buildup of earwax that's blocking your hearing?
>> since you wish to fight as well, we will supply Sifu Keith Mazza for
>
>See...now you are talking!!!
Actually no, I'm typing. And again, quit being led around on a leash and do
some thinking (and reading) for yourself. Drahiem wanted to accept the
challenge. The challenge was for Emin (duh). Hence we are happy to
provide a fighter for Drahiem as well because he said he is interested in
fighting. Hence we are supplying Sifu Mazza.
>bring friends...you guys will need someone
>to carry you out.
The playground is out that way and to the right. This is a serious challenge
and denotes a seious talk. Leave this for serious people and go run along
now (pat pat).
>> Since you wish to fight as well, we would like a three person match so
>> there is no doubt in anyone's mind. Perhaps I can persuade Sigung Cheung
>> to match against Ting if Ting wishes to come out and play?
>
>After a student of his
tried to
>beat your SiGung
Gee, and I thought it was stated here numerous times that Emin was a student
of Kernspechts. Wow, I guess a) we're uncovering more lies or b) more holes
in your story kiddo.
>...I hardly think he would
>lower* himself to fight him.
Actually, it's Sigung Cheung that would be lowering himself to fight Ting, who
we consider to be two generations below, if even that close.
>You know, you have to prove you are
>worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
>internet is not earning the right.
Blah, blah blah. If that's the smoke cloud of reasoning Ting is going to duck
and hide behind, then I guess he'll never come out to play (and get a spanking.
I would never say "beating" like Drahiem, because we don't believe in picking
on the weak and frail.)
>> >4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
>> >fighter of his choice.
>>
>> Again a condition which you know full well will not be acceptable.
>
>But is what is commonly acepted since the middle ages. You challenge, I
>choose time, place, weapons, and my fighter. Quite common among nobel
>houses. Since we are talking about the Elite of our systems...they
>pretty much qualify, do they not?
Get a life. This isn't 1500's Germany. It's 1996, in the U.S. And as Emin
himself admitted, when he went to challenge Sigung Cheung and said "I want
to challenge you" (thereby declaring himself as the challenger) and Sigung
Cheung said "Fine, after the seminar" (which Emin has admitted) Emin
admitted that he was afraid Sigung Cheung would back out if he waited till
later, so he attacked on the spot. Thereby negating any sort of "commonly
accepted practice". And conrtary to popular opinion, Europe is not the
center of culture or standards of operating procedures for the entire history
of the world. There's a whole nother part out there kiddo. And if we're
going to talk about commonly accepted European challenge customs, then he
should have walked up to Sigung Cheung, slapped him across the cheaks with
a glove, and said "I challenge you." Then set up a date, both people have
seconds, as well as a neutral party to govern the match. So get with
the program.
>> We wouldn't accept you fighting in his place as was personally posted
>> here, so why the heck would it be alright for him to send anyone else?
>> Again Drahiem, you're stepping around the issue. Boztepe-Julian, on
>> neutral ground, you-Mazza on neutral ground. It's as simple as that.
>
>Boztepe-Cheung at Cheung's seminar. Julian-Boztepe at Boztepe's seminar
>seems right to me...
Well, if anybody gave a rats ass what you though then I guess it would mean
something. Unfortunately you're a nobody, bringing nothing to this
conversation.
>Or are you guys already trying to back out of it?
Same thing Drahiem tried to say. Must be yanking your leash.
>> >We are willing to arrange a fight on October 19th or 20th (the weekend of
>>
>> Neutral ground. Neutral ground, neutral ground. There, I've said it
>> several more times.
>>
>
>Then how about on the 26th of October in the Chicago Seminar? I will be
>there...could bring video camera...love to see it...as it would be in
>SiSok Mike Adams's School (or location of his choosing) it would be more
>neutral than at the NY seminar...but still it will have to be a seminar
>to balance the karma scales. Yep, you guys really NEED to fight at a
>seminar...that way you can try to set things right again. Anyway, Sifu
>is so busy, that he had to cut the Chicago Seminar down to only one
>day...We suffer because of his busy schedule...why should we suffer more
>so that you wannabes can get beat up? Come to a seminar, so we can
>enjoy Sifu Wacking on you. :)
Whetever. You're just spouting more nonsense.
>> Ignoring you and saying "Leave my fucking flyers alone" in response is
>> being afraid? Walk in there and challenge him, and see how afraid he
>
>Why? You guys have waited, what 9 years? to challenge Sifu...now let us
>all see what you are made of...you want him...you know where he will
>be...when he will be there...what is the damn problem?
The above had nothing to do with the challenge little one. It had to do
with Drahiem walking around the building and ripping off Sifu Parlati's
flyers to put up his own. What's the damn problem? Got brain freeze,
or is that collar and leash around your neck a bit too tight?
>> >You can also leave a message on my voice mail at 212-439-4862 or send a
>> >fax to 212-754-0967.
>>
>> We have your number. However, it is Boztepe who should be contacting,
>> since he is the one the challenge was adressed too. But you seem to
>> have a problem understanding this simple matter.
>
>Sifu travels extensivly. You HAVE to talk to someone here.
Get it straight. The challenge was sent to Emin. Period. It's his
turn to contact US to tell if he accepts or declines. All we've
heard from is underlings.
>Therefore...you call SiSok Draheim at the above numbers...Did you mom
>drop you on your head alot?
That's a good one. I almost laughed at that bit of second grade humor.
>> I will be contacting Sifu Keith Mazza to see if he will accept your
>> challenge (which I have no doubts that he will).
>
>Sounds like you are getting ready to back out in masse...
More wishful thinking on your part.
>> Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
>> as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
>> Fax is listed as well.
>
>Well...Any talk we have is with Cheung alone
Yes, of course, that makes sense. The challenge was from Julian, to Emin, but
you must talk to Sigung Cheung. The united allies in the middleast are
bombing Iraq, so Iraq tries to go after Israel. Makes sense.
>...we only need to talk to
>him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
Why do we have to talk to you? Or to Drahiem, or anyone else? We only need
to talk to Emin...not his damn followers...only him.
>Sound familiar?
Sound familiar?
>> >A copy of this posting will also be sent to IKF.
>>
>> I'm glad. If the whole world can't see a fight, they can at least see you
>> sidestepping around the issue.
>
>What side stepping? We Accepted, said where we were willing to fight,
>and said come on down. I guess that would be considered side stepping
>if you were never really serious.
Sidestepping. It's been discussed here in the past that the reason for the
challenge was becuase of the cowardly and slimeball way Emin ambushed last time.
We will not sink to a dogs level to get the dog to come out and play. And
we will not do it in your environemt for no one else to see, so you can make
up more stories like the last time.
It's really very simple:
1) Neutral ground
2) In the open for everyone in the world to see (not some little private seminar)
3) We are even willing to wait until after his "busy schedule" if he needs it.
We'd just as soon do it the weekend he's in New York if he wants it then
that bad. Just simply put, neutral ground, open to the public. Like you
said, what's the damn problem?
>Michael
This is my last response to you Michael. I don't have time for little boy talk,
although I will say this has been fun. I'm sure you'll come back with more
stories, possibly like Sigung Cheung popping up suddenly among the astronauts
in the space station Mir, giving everyone the finger and sitting in the pilot's
seats challenging everyone to dethrone him or something. And of course, you'll
have more insults and half-formulated ideas based on what nonesense you've
been brainwashed with.
Dropping you in the /kill file now, so long!
Marty
WWCKFA
Marty
can...@aol.com (Canardo) says:
>In article <52s10h$7...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>
>>My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
>>announced, or Drahiem?
>
>The only two guys authorized to represent Sifu Emin Boztepe on the
>Internet are Mike Peter and I. So easy is that. Most of the time I leave
>it up to Mike, though. since his English is much better than mine.
In the future, so there are no missunderstandings as to who said what or
whom is speaking for whom, it would be beneficial for one or the other
of you to keep the "official" announcments.
> Now
>it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
>challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
>Bullshit!! Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
>Germany then when he said "After the seminar"? Emin chose the time and
>place and who then, and he was the challenger. Sorry guys, not this
time.
>Your doublestandards aren't going to work.
>Cheung said he is going to prove it to anybody at any time anywhere.
No he did not.
>He
>could not back that up.
Actually, he did.
>And in addition, you don't want us to repeat your
>strategy and claim that we couldn't fight because
>
>1. we were afraid that the American police would put us into prison for
>months without a fair trial. So we did not really fight.
American police are a bit different, and you know it. Don't try to warp
reality for the sake of illfated sarcasm.
But I guess you are only stating the truth of what you would do. We have
only to look at the Gracie example.
>2. TWC bribed the press to force us to wear shoes which are tradional but
>not suitable for a fight. So we did not really fight.
Uh, don't remember saying anything about bribes, but go on...this is
interesting.
>3. TWC sent in at least 16 guys. We were forced to fight every single one
>of them. So we did not fight.
Wow, even I don't remember writing anything like that down in the article
you're getting this from. Forced to fight 16 guys? Please, go on,
this is getting almost as good as the story you guys tried to say about
Sigung Chueng popping up in the middle of Germany and sitting on your
throne or something.
>4. The same 16 guys waited until we were standing exactly at that point
>were the bribed press spoiled some oil, so that our stance would not work
>anymore. So we did not fight.
Press dropping oil? 16 guys standing over it so a stance would not work?
Geeze Andy, I excpect a better story than that.
>No, Marty, you don't want that because you experienced yourself how good
>one can get along with a bunch of those kind of lies.
yes, you show that everytime you open your mouth.
>You don't want that.
>Do you Marty? You want a clean fight with no excuses. So do we. I just
>want to note that you refuse to contact me to set up such a clean fight.
I haven't refused anything. It's not for me to call you and set up, and
quite frankly it's not for you to be involved in. The only reason I'm
even involved in this is because it spilled on to the Internet. And i
did pass on your message and posts. And if you're so upset as to why
they haven't called back yet, then give a call instead of whining.
Boztepe isn't the only person with a busy schedule.
>In addition you claim in earlier postings that TWC considers it
>as Dog
>behaviour to jump into a seminar and challenge.
Look at that, he finally understands something.
>So if you don't do that,
>and you don't want to set up a clean fight.
Whoops, he's back to brain freeze.
>What is the alternative?
>Please let me know. I just want to make sure that I don't miss it just
>because I did not know about it and wasn't there.
Said it several times already, including in the very post your own response
was towards. Heck, I've even been saying it since my first post on the
subject: NEUTRAL GROUND. What's so hard to understand?
>Or are you actually working with double standards?
8) Sure you're not a politician?
>I repeat my offer. Contact me and we set something up. Or come to the
>seminar in NY. In any case: we are waiting for your action.
Actually, we're still waiting for Emin's. You're just a little thing to pass
the time.
Joe
Michael Strange wrote:
>
> Marty wrote:
>
>
-snip-
>
> > Actually, no. You've only stated that you don't fight in tournaments.
> > Nothing about not fighting in public. This is not a tournament.
>
> True, we are told not to fight in tournaments. However, as to Sifu not
> fighting in the UFC...I would not let someone I wanted to fight make a
> dime off of the thing. Why fight someone in thier tournamet, where they
> will make possibly millions off of, win or loose. And if they lost, it
> would just be another sad excuse on their part...Royce would have had
> low blood sugar again...
Funny, Royce losing to a 200lb (approx.) fighter (unproven) with NO grappling
skills. Yeah...sure...that would have happened.
>
-snip-
>
> > And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
> Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
> and weapons...you know...a duel. Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
Man, what a fucking idiot you must be. Boztepe challenges Gracie, Gracie
choses place, Boztepe backs out saying it's not fair. Now, when the situation
is reversed, you wan't the same rights you wouldn't allow the Gracies to have.
Unbelievable
>
-snip-
>
> > Since you wish to fight as well, we would like a three person match so
> > there is no doubt in anyone's mind. Perhaps I can persuade Sigung Cheung
> > to match against Ting if Ting wishes to come out and play?
>
> After a student of his beat your SiGung...I hardly think he would
> *lower* himself to fight him. You know, you have to prove you are
> worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
> internet is not earning the right.
Funny, Boztepe never EARNED SHIT yet he still challenged the Gracie camp
and they accepted. If your rule applies, Boztepe should have fought a lower
level GJJ fighter. Damn, that would have been funny to see your reasoning
for Boztepe getting his ass kicked by a GJJ bluebelt.
>
> > >4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
> > >fighter of his choice.
> >
> > Again a condition which you know full well will not be acceptable.
>
> But is what is commonly acepted since the middle ages. You challenge, I
> choose time, place, weapons, and my fighter. Quite common among nobel
> houses. Since we are talking about the Elite of our systems...they
> pretty much qualify, do they not?
Once again, pretty funny stuff. Wish you would have had that thinking during
the Gracie challenge.
>
> > We wouldn't accept you fighting in his place as was personally posted
> > here, so why the heck would it be alright for him to send anyone else?
> > Again Drahiem, you're stepping around the issue. Boztepe-Julian, on
> > neutral ground, you-Mazza on neutral ground. It's as simple as that.
>
> Boztepe-Cheung at Cheung's seminar. Julian-Boztepe at Boztepe's seminar
> seems right to me...
>
> Or are you guys already trying to back out of it?
If they were, they'd just be taking after you guys (the wt cult).
>
> > >We are willing to arrange a fight on October 19th or 20th (the weekend of
> >
> > Neutral ground. Neutral ground, neutral ground. There, I've said it
> > several more times.
> >
>
> Then how about on the 26th of October in the Chicago Seminar? I will be
> there...could bring video camera...love to see it...as it would be in
> SiSok Mike Adams's School (or location of his choosing) it would be more
> neutral than at the NY seminar...but still it will have to be a seminar
> to balance the karma scales. Yep, you guys really NEED to fight at a
> seminar...that way you can try to set things right again. Anyway, Sifu
> is so busy, that he had to cut the Chicago Seminar down to only one
> day...We suffer because of his busy schedule...why should we suffer more
> so that you wannabes can get beat up? Come to a seminar, so we can
> enjoy Sifu Wacking on you. :)
>
>
> > Ignoring you and saying "Leave my fucking flyers alone" in response is
> > being afraid? Walk in there and challenge him, and see how afraid he
>
> Why? You guys have waited, what 9 years? to challenge Sifu...now let us
> all see what you are made of...you want him...you know where he will
> be...when he will be there...what is the damn problem?
Once again, wish the wt cult would have had this state of mind during the
Gracie challenge.
>
> > >You can also leave a message on my voice mail at 212-439-4862 or send a
> > >fax to 212-754-0967.
> >
> > We have your number. However, it is Boztepe who should be contacting,
> > since he is the one the challenge was adressed too. But you seem to
> > have a problem understanding this simple matter.
>
> Sifu travels extensivly. You HAVE to talk to someone here.
> Therefore...you call SiSok Draheim at the above numbers...Did you mom
> drop you on your head alot?
Did your dad sodimize you a lot? Would explain the Homoerotic passion you
show for Anal Blowstippy.
>
> > I will be contacting Sifu Keith Mazza to see if he will accept your
> > challenge (which I have no doubts that he will).
>
> Sounds like you are getting ready to back out in masse...
>
> > Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
> > as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
> > Fax is listed as well.
>
> Well...Any talk we have is with Cheung alone...we only need to talk to
> him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
>
> Sound familiar?
Yup, Give them Boztepe's number and it'll be fair.
>
> > >A copy of this posting will also be sent to IKF.
> >
> > I'm glad. If the whole world can't see a fight, they can at least see you
> > sidestepping around the issue.
>
> What side stepping? We Accepted, said where we were willing to fight,
> and said come on down. I guess that would be considered side stepping
> if you were never really serious.
>
> Michael
--
-- Joe --
-------------------------------------------------------------
"There was a hint of danger, They told him it's ok
There was a chance of failure, they told him it's alright
A false security, driven by a weakened state of mind
It's calling and calling..."
Face to Face
Joe
Marty wrote:
>
> ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>
> >>Marty Says:
> >I think Emin speaks for himself.
> >I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>
> No, please look above. Actually, we have yet to hear from Emin himself.
Oh boy! I'll bet Emin will shit a brick when he finds out he has to actually
fight someone. If front of his students too!
>
> >Rick - just my opinion. BTW, I don't speak for WT any more than you speak
> > for your alma mater. I just practice the art. I'm not in charge of
> > it and the people in charge have not selected me to speak for them.
>
> I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
> Marty
> WWCKFA
--
Michael Peter
> >>>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
> >>>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
> >>
> >>
> >>The post by Julian was called Sarcasm.
> >>
> >
> >Forgive me. I thought he was serious. Is the whole challenge sarcasm too?
>
> Nice try at double talk.
>
> >>announced, or Drahiem?
> >>
> >
>
> You might want to take a look back at posts then. Jeff said all
> correspondance between us and Emin in the future should be sent through
> him. However, now Drahiem is speaking for Emin as well.
>
Maybe you should read it again. Sifu Jeff's posts state that I
handle correspondence b/w Sifu Emin and the Net. Sifu Draheim
can speak on Dai Sifu Emin's behalf, as well.
> >I think Emin speaks for himself.
> >I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>
> No, please look above. Actually, we have yet to hear from Emin himself.
>
Really....
[snip]
>
> >Emin is now a master.
>
> Bater.
>
> >>Emin chose the time and
> >>place and who then, and he was the challenger.
> >
> >You have the same option I believe.
>
> No. Please re-read the posts. Drahiem is of the firm conviction that your
> side should be choosing the time and place.
>
Read his latest posts. He waiting for someone to let him contact
them so things can be worked out.
[snip]
> I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
>
And you are doing a piss-poor job, with comments like "masturbater"
above, and referring to Si Kung Leung Ting as "Ting" when you well
know that Leung is the family name. In fact, in response to my
first post about challenges, you came back with a point by point
mud-fest. That's fine between you and Sifu Draheim, that precedent
has already been set. However, if you have a problem dealing on
a mature level with what *I* post, then I suggest you turn over
your official capacities to Andrew Nerlich. Because otherwise,
your behavior toward my representative capacity is inexcusable.
Mike
A-EWTO
Michael Peter
Pete R. wrote:
>
> can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>
> >2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
> >mentioned endless times here on the net.
>
> Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
> he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
> be there.
That was different. From his perspective, he was challenged first,
replied that he doesn't fight in competitions, and was called
a chicken by representatives of the challengers.
I thought we had gone over all this before. Let's not bring it
up again. I f you feel the need to hash out why it's a
different situation, please change the subject line and
start and appropriate thread.
Mike
WT
Michael Peter
Marty wrote:
>
[snip]
> 3) We are even willing to wait until after his "busy schedule" if he needs it.
> We'd just as soon do it the weekend he's in New York if he wants it then
> that bad. Just simply put, neutral ground, open to the public. Like you
> said, what's the damn problem?
>
Please pick up back issues of IKF and compare the A-EWTO seminar
schedule
then with the present. Dai Sifu Emin has been maintaining that schedule
for quite a while, with no break. Immediately after the seminar run
here, he will be in Europe on an even more hectic schedule. After
the European run, he will be back here again to run the exact same
schedule.
This isn't an excuse, it's pointing out the reality of the
situation. Don't try to use it as a means to say that Dai
Sifu Emin is backing out. He was on this schedule *long*
before this Julian guy popped out of nowhere. I would expect
Julian to have done some background work to figure out the
opportune time to post his challenge, thus I figure he has
a preferred set of conditions to fight under that will fit
the situations of both Dai Sifu Emin and himself. If not,
then I would think that he didn't do sufficient prior
planning. Don't point the finger this way for poor performance
as a result.
On another note, is Julian Sawyer refusing to recognize
Sifu Andrew Draheim's response?
Mike
A-EWTO
Rick Shank
In article <325219...@ucla.edu>, Joe <joej...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>Michael Strange wrote:
>>
>> Marty wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > We have your number. However, it is Boztepe who should be contacting,
>> > since he is the one the challenge was adressed too. But you seem to
>> > have a problem understanding this simple matter.
>>
>> Sifu travels extensivly. You HAVE to talk to someone here.
>> Therefore...you call SiSok Draheim at the above numbers...Did you mom
>> drop you on your head alot?
>
>Did your dad sodimize you a lot? Would explain the Homoerotic passion you
>show for Anal Blowstippy.
>
Are all you guys homosexual/homophobic perverts? You seem to have some
problem making an argument without bringing in some fictitious homosexual
babble.
>
>> > Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
>> > as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
>> > Fax is listed as well.
>>
>> Well...Any talk we have is with Cheung alone...we only need to talk to
>> him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
>>
>> Sound familiar?
>
>Yup, Give them Boztepe's number and it'll be fair.
>
Uhm, duh! It's published in IKF every month and they have already been
given it anyway.
Rick
Florin Cutu
>Pete R. wrote:
>>
>> can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>>
>> >2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>> >mentioned endless times here on the net.
>>
>> Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
>> he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
>> be there.
>
hey WT guys, how about switching to private email for this stuff? And coming
back to the newsgroup when you'll have something worthy to say? like some
new facts to report?
Rick Shank
In article <52srt2$v...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>
>ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>
>>>Marty Says:
>>>>Rick Says:
>>>>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
>>>>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
>>>
>>>
>>>The post by Julian was called Sarcasm.
>>>
>>
>>Forgive me. I thought he was serious. Is the whole challenge sarcasm too?
>
>
>Nice try at double talk.
>
It ain't doubletalk. I thought he was serious. So did everyone else here.
I heard they were baking him a cake (and building him a box).
>
>>>My question is: who's in charge of speaking for Boztepe? Jeff Webb as he
>>>announced, or Drahiem?
>>>
>>
>>I haven't seen anyone speaking for Emin.
>
>You might want to take a look back at posts then. Jeff said all
>correspondance between us and Emin in the future should be sent through
>him. However, now Drahiem is speaking for Emin as well.
>
>>I think Emin speaks for himself.
>>I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>
>No, please look above. Actually, we have yet to hear from Emin himself.
>
I imagine you'll either hear Emin's response through IKF or whatever mag you
guys published a challenge in.
>
>>>As in showing how much a coward and slimeball Boztepe was. Now
>>>it's claimed by the WT camp (Drahiem) that since they are the ones being
>>>challenged they should be able to choose when, where, and who fights?
>>>Bullshit!!
>>
>>I'll agree that it is a little inconsistent. I can see the need for neutral
>>territory on both sides. Perhaps you can work this out. Hint: try not
>>to set it up in a police station. Emin bit that worm once before. I doubt
>>he'll fall for it again.
>
>If it were up to me, it would be in a back alley somewhere with video cams
>set up at each end. But this isn't my call.
>
I doubt you'll get any resistance there. I'm sure there is an alley near
the seminar or near IKF.
>
>
>>>Why wasn't the same courtesy given to Sigung Cheung in
>>>Germany then when he said "After the seminar"?
>>
>>Courtesy? Are you fighting or playing chess? Wing chun is suppose to be
>>for self defense, not tournament play.
>
>Then you've just negated Drahiem's claim an call for courtesy.
>
I negated nothing of Draheim's claims. He is far my senior. If I say left
and he says right, you had better take his word over mine. I'm just expressing
my opinion. I don't speak for WT, Draheim, you, etc. I don't see where getting
in a fight has anything to do with courtesy. BTW, tradition != courtesy.
>>You're lucky Emin didn't have any
>>intention of hurting William Cheung.
>
>Or that Sigung Cheung didn't have any intention of hurting Emin.
>
He should have. If you are attacked, you had better intend on hurting your
attacker or you are taking a big chance.
>>Emin took a big risk that day.
>
>Or so he wishes people to believe.
>
C'mon, you can do better than that. Student takes on grandmaster with
one guy to watch his back and one guy to take pictures at grandmaster's
own seminar... Sure, Emin took no risk.
>>If
>>he hadn't been good enough, William Cheung could have very well killed
>>Emin.
>
>If it had abeen a fair fight in neutral territory, he very well would have.
>Just like I'm sure others are considering.
>
Pfffttttt!!!!!!!! A fair fight in neutral territory is a competition.
Since when would anyone condiser killing someone in a fair fight in neutral
territory? You aren't making any sense. You would more likely expect one
to kill someone when they are attacked in their own house than 'in neutral
territory'.
>>As it was, Emin toyed with William Cheung.
>
>If toyed means stalling for time while trying to get film for video shots
>for later editing, then I guess so.
>
Gee, that's funny. I couldn't stall Emin long enough for people to blink
an eye. Emin *must* be pretty good to do that to a grandmaster.
>>I would suggest you
>>guys consider that before you come running after someone who bested your
>>grandmaster when he was a 5 year student.
>
>But see, that's the thing. Most people with an ounce of reality induced
>thinking don't believe he was bested. There's no conclusive proof. Just
>some shoddy uncomplete video footage. Which is why it's still a
>controversey to this day.
>
Then your guys need to show up at the seminar, return the favor, and get
your butts kicked so there will be no more controversy.
>>Emin is now a master.
>
>Bater.
I can see that you have been hanging out with the immature group of the
GJJ crowd. Maybe you should spend more time with their adults.
>
>>>Emin chose the time and
>>>place and who then, and he was the challenger.
>>
>>You have the same option I believe.
>
>No. Please re-read the posts. Drahiem is of the firm conviction that your
>side should be choosing the time and place.
>
Well, gee. Let's see. Emin posts his whereabouts internationally and you
can't figure out how to choose your own time and place? He isn't your
waterboy. He didn't ask William Cheung to come to him. He came to William
Cheung just like William Cheung asked -- anyone, anytime, anywhere.
>> By the way, you may want to suggest
>>to your guys to bring information for notification of next of kin.
>
>(waves fingers back and forth) ewwwwwwwww...scarrrrrry!
>
I think Emin is.
>
>>Rick - just my opinion. BTW, I don't speak for WT any more than you speak
>> for your alma mater. I just practice the art. I'm not in charge of
>> it and the people in charge have not selected me to speak for them.
>
>I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
I was not referring to TWC and the WWCKFA, I was referring to your high school/
college. Kind of like I don't speak for AMD just because I am an employee.
If I were a Catholic, I wouldn't speak for the catholic church. If I were
Jewish, I wouldn't be speaking for Israel or the Jewish community. If I were
Chinese, I wouldn't be speaking for China. I hope you get the picture. I don't
speak for WT. I speak for myself, period.
Marty
Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> says:
>Marty wrote:
>>
>> ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>>
>Maybe you should read it again. Sifu Jeff's posts state that I
>handle correspondence b/w Sifu Emin and the Net. Sifu Draheim
>can speak on Dai Sifu Emin's behalf, as well.
Whatever. The point was Rick was stating that no one else but
Drahiem had said they speak for Emin.
The point being, I think you would want just one person handling it
then so there is no confusion in the longrun.
It's obviously your guy's decision though.
>> >I think Emin speaks for himself.
>> >I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>>
>> No, please look above. Actually, we have yet to hear from Emin himself.
>>
>
>Really....
Really.
>[snip]
>>
>> >Emin is now a master.
>>
>> Bater.
>>
>> >>Emin chose the time and
>> >>place and who then, and he was the challenger.
>> >
>> >You have the same option I believe.
>>
>> No. Please re-read the posts. Drahiem is of the firm conviction that your
>> side should be choosing the time and place.
>>
>
>Read his latest posts. He waiting for someone to let him contact
>them so things can be worked out.
For him. Not for Emin. And in his latest post it's still the same. He
wants Julian to come to the seminar.
>[snip]
>> I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
>>
>
>And you are doing a piss-poor job, with comments like "masturbater"
>above,
I'm sorry you feel the need to take an orater term and turn it in to a
sexual connotation.
master-bater means someone who excells at bating people by his comments and
ideas. I did not write masturbater. His comments have been offensive,
and then he steps back and says "What, me? I was just being frank in
an interview. These interviewer's just won't let the past stay in the
past."
>and referring to Si Kung Leung Ting as "Ting" when you well
>know that Leung is the family name. In fact, in response to my
>first post about challenges, you came back with a point by point
>mud-fest.
It's only a mud-fest when the other side is upset at what is being said.
We call it the truth.
>That's fine between you and Sifu Draheim, that precedent
>has already been set. However, if you have a problem dealing on
>a mature level with what *I* post, then I suggest you turn over
>your official capacities to Andrew Nerlich. Because otherwise,
>your behavior toward my representative capacity is inexcusable.
Can't handle the heat, get out of the oven. I personally don't feel
I was having as much of a good time with your posts as i usually allow
my self with someone like Drahiems. But if that's the way you feel,
I can certainly try and tone it down even more when talking with you.
But don't confuse my lack of respect for Ting and Boztepe for some
lack of respect of your capacity.
>Mike
>A-EWTO
Marty
WWCKFA
Rick Shank
In article <52sshk$s...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Michael Strange <mstr...@voyageronline.net> says:
>
>
>>Marty wrote:
>>
>>> Any more than Sigung Cheung was the agressor for the Germany ambush.
>>> It was Emin that came to challenge him. Not the reverse.
>>
>>Okay, first off...William Cheung was quoted in an artical as saying that
>>he was the best there was, only he had the true wing chun, and he was
>>willing to fight any time, anywhere, and anyone to prove it...sounds to
>>me like he was asking for a confrontation.
>
>
>This is incorrect. Please do a little more research. That's propoganda
>from the WT camp.
>
Hey Marty, you posted the letter yourself. It pretty clearly claimed that
William Cheung was the best wing chun fighter in the world and that he
was prepared to prove it to anyone, anytime, anywhere.
>
>>You talk about being jumped by all
>>of the "Wing Tsun Cult Members".
>
>Where?!?! Get the facts straight. We said he had people in waiting. And he
>did, even by his own admission.
>
Pfffttttt!!!!! He had one guy watching his back. Check the picture. He is
the guy holding the crowd of 30 people back. Then there was the guy armed
with the deadly weapon -- a video camera.
>>Sifu went to Germany with a video guy,
>>that is all
>
>That convinces me you're just spouting propoganda like a little underling.
>Try and do a little research on you own story. Emin said he was there
>with a cameraman and a second to watch his back.
>
>Our claim is that it didn't just stop with the second. There were others
>"watching his back" as well.
>
Your claim is pretty weak. It is totally unsubstantiated.
>>...and he fought your master
>
>Two people need to be making an effort to beat each other up to call it
>a fight. Sigung Cheung did pure self defense. When they both slipped
>and fell to the ground, he went right to his back and laid there using
>Emin as coverage so as not to expose his own body to whatever Emin's
>"backup" had planned. Then he neutralized at the elbows and baited
>time until Emin got up and ran off.
>
Maybe if he had had a better stance, he wouldn't have slipped and fell? ;^)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
>
>>and walked
>>away.
>
>Ran out when the whistle blew, as did the rest of his "backup".
>
>
>>He had no fear of what the crowd would do.
>
>
>Why would he have fear from his own people?
>
If they were his own people, why did he run away with the film? You don't
make any sense.
>>Show some spine
>>yourselves.
>
>
>We will be. Emin's. And Ting's, and Drahiem's if they get their act together
>and quit trying to sidestep. It's like you people can only fight where you
>have a bunch or yoursleves there as well.
Have you ever been to a seminar Marty? How many people are there capable of
taking on a master or grandmaster? How many people are there capable of taking
on a sifu? You are running out of excuses.
>>He has said that he will fight...so...SHOW UP!!!!
>
>Blah blah blah.
>
Is this an official TWC/WWCKFA response?
>>> And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
>>Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
>>and weapons...you know...a duel.
>
>Whose middle ages? More german "warrior spirit" crap that the WT people seem
>to be so fond of? Try following some of your own advice then little man.
>emin challenged, he picked the place and time last time. Ain't going to happen
>again. This time, it'll be mutual agreement for a NEUTRAL place.
It sounds like the last time. If WT is going to fight TWC, we're going to
have to chase you around the world until we catch you.
>
>
>>Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
>
>Getting a lot of echo in that gap between your ears, eh? Or is that just the
>buildup of earwax that's blocking your hearing?
>
I think he's falling asleep.
>>> since you wish to fight as well, we will supply Sifu Keith Mazza for
>>
>>See...now you are talking!!!
>
>
>Actually no, I'm typing. And again, quit being led around on a leash and do
>some thinking (and reading) for yourself. Drahiem wanted to accept the
>challenge. The challenge was for Emin (duh). Hence we are happy to
>provide a fighter for Drahiem as well because he said he is interested in
>fighting. Hence we are supplying Sifu Mazza.
>
Julian posted to the net a challenge to Emin and Andrew. Andrew accepted
Julian's challenge on the net. Then you claimed that Julian's net challenge
is just a joke. Julian is actually challenging Emin (stupid move if you ask
me). I don't see anywhere that Andrew has accepted a challenge from the TWC
in general (but giving how fast he accepted Julian's challenge, I doubt you
will find much resistance to someone else.) You really should reiterate so
that he can separate your serious challenges from your sarcastic joke challenges.
>>bring friends...you guys will need someone
>>to carry you out.
>
>The playground is out that way and to the right. This is a serious challenge
>and denotes a seious talk. Leave this for serious people and go run along
>now (pat pat).
>
You mean like the serious guys posting challenges on the internet which become
a sarcastic joke when the recipient accepts?
>
>Actually, it's Sigung Cheung that would be lowering himself to fight Ting, who
>we consider to be two generations below, if even that close.
>
This generation stuff is cool for class and all but it doesn't mean shit when
it comes to business. I am actually on Emin's level when it comes to family
but out of respect for his experience and training, I still call him sifu. I
doubt I could even hit him if both his hands were tied behind his back and his
legs were tied together.
>>You know, you have to prove you are
>>worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
>>internet is not earning the right.
>
>Blah, blah blah.
More official response I see.
>If that's the smoke cloud of reasoning Ting is going to duck
>and hide behind,
Wake up Marty. Michael does not speak for Leung Ting.
deletia.......
>>
>>Sifu travels extensivly. You HAVE to talk to someone here.
>
>Get it straight. The challenge was sent to Emin. Period. It's his
>turn to contact US to tell if he accepts or declines. All we've
>heard from is underlings.
>
Why don't you look for him where you published your official challenge
rather than where you publish your joke challenges? Emin isn't here.
He's probably too busy for joke challenges. Now where did you say you
published your *real* challenge? Maybe you'll find Emin there.
>>Therefore...you call SiSok Draheim at the above numbers...Did you mom
>>drop you on your head alot?
>
>That's a good one. I almost laughed at that bit of second grade humor.
>
>>> I will be contacting Sifu Keith Mazza to see if he will accept your
>>> challenge (which I have no doubts that he will).
>>
>>Sounds like you are getting ready to back out in masse...
>
>More wishful thinking on your part.
>
>
>>> Any correspondance with the WWCKFA can be sent directly to WWCKFA headquarters
>>> as listed at the WWCKFA homepage www.wwckfa.com.
>>> Fax is listed as well.
>>
>>Well...Any talk we have is with Cheung alone
>
>Yes, of course, that makes sense. The challenge was from Julian, to Emin, but
>you must talk to Sigung Cheung. The united allies in the middleast are
>bombing Iraq, so Iraq tries to go after Israel. Makes sense.
>
>>...we only need to talk to
>>him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
>
>Why do we have to talk to you? Or to Drahiem, or anyone else? We only need
>to talk to Emin...not his damn followers...only him.
>
>>Sound familiar?
>
>Sound familiar?
>
Hey, which came first, the chicken or the WT, er, I mean egg.
>
>It's really very simple:
>
>1) Neutral ground
>
>2) In the open for everyone in the world to see (not some little private
>seminar)
>
>3) We are even willing to wait until after his "busy schedule" if he needs it.
You mean like when he is 70 and retires? Yup, that's what I figured.
>We'd just as soon do it the weekend he's in New York if he wants it then
>that bad. Just simply put, neutral ground, open to the public. Like you
>said, what's the damn problem?
The problem is you need to call Andrew Draheim and set it up (if I understand
what everyone is telling you). The game is on, you just have to make an
appointment to get your desire. Either that or make a surprise visit. Hey,
be there or live (or was that be square?).
>
>This is my last response to you Michael. I don't have time for little boy talk,
>although I will say this has been fun. I'm sure you'll come back with more
>stories, possibly like Sigung Cheung popping up suddenly among the astronauts
>in the space station Mir, giving everyone the finger and sitting in the pilot's
>seats challenging everyone to dethrone him or something. And of course, you'll
>have more insults and half-formulated ideas based on what nonesense you've
>been brainwashed with.
>
>Dropping you in the /kill file now, so long!
Marty, you're too sensitive. He wasn't nearly as bad as the clowns I've got
in my kill file. ;^)
Rick - I don't speak for Leung Ting, Keith Kernspecht, Emin Boztepe, Andrew
Draheim, Jeff Webb, Mike Peter, William Cheung, Marty, Julian, Andrew
Nerlich, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, or even my sister. I only
express my own opinion. It's worth what you paid for it.
Rick Shank
In article <52stut$7...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>can...@aol.com (Canardo) says:
>
>>In article <52s10h$7...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>>
snipple......;^)
Hey Marty, this isn't a date, it's a challenge. I don't think you publicly
challenge someone and then say 'call me, we'll do punch (er, I mean lunch)
some time.' You made a public challenge and you have been given contact
numbers to set something up. Don't you think it's your responsibility to
follow up on your challenge or is this just a publicity stunt?
Rick - I speak for no one, not even me.
Rick Shank
In article <52u238$f...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> says:
>
>
>>Marty wrote:
>>>
>>> ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) says:
>>>
>>Maybe you should read it again. Sifu Jeff's posts state that I
>>handle correspondence b/w Sifu Emin and the Net. Sifu Draheim
>>can speak on Dai Sifu Emin's behalf, as well.
>
>Whatever. The point was Rick was stating that no one else but
>Drahiem had said they speak for Emin.
>
Marty, get some damn reading glasses or some reading lessons. What I
said is right below and does *not* concur with what you claim.
>
>>> >I think Emin speaks for himself.
>>> >I believe Andrew Draheim was speaking for himself.
>>>
It also clearly shows that it is my opinion, not an official proclamation.
>>
>>Read his latest posts. He waiting for someone to let him contact
>>them so things can be worked out.
>
>
>For him. Not for Emin. And in his latest post it's still the same. He
>wants Julian to come to the seminar.
>
I guess that's what you get for posting joke challenges. And you they're
confusing you. BTW, just so you don't get confused by my response. I am
*NOT*, I repeat *NOT* in the official loop on any of this. I am purely
speaking my own opinion. I not only have no official position in this, I
know nothing more than what I am reading in these posts. I repeat, I am
not in the official loop.
>
>
>>[snip]
>>> I speak for TWC and the WWCKFA in these series of posts. Don't kid yourself.
>>>
>>
>>And you are doing a piss-poor job, with comments like "masturbater"
>>above,
>
>
>I'm sorry you feel the need to take an orater term and turn it in to a
>sexual connotation.
>
>master-bater means someone who excells at bating people by his comments and
>ideas. I did not write masturbater.
That word is bait, not bate. Gee, how could we have ever misunderstood you?
Rick
Michael Dash
ri...@dvorak.amd.com (Rick Shank) wrote:
>In article <52nacj$v...@uwm.edu>, Marty <boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>>
>>This is the way it stands. Julian wants to fight Emin, and only Emin.
>>If Drahiem wants to fight one of us, we can supply another Sifu.
>>
>>The fight's are to occur in a public place, for all the world to see. Not
>>in a private seminar on un-neutral ground as you have previously suggested.
>>But that seems to be the only way certain people need to operate.
>>
>>Emin can either accept or decline, with the ramifications of each being
>>obvious.
>>
>
>
>What the heck is this Marty? Is this an official response for Julian or
>does Julian speak for himself? Maybe you should reread Julian's post below.
>
>$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
>I will be at Leung Ting's seminar in New York this October. I know that
>both Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim will be there. If you attend the
>seminar, please bring your video cameras! That is all I will say.
>Certainly,
>this is more warning than Boztepe gave Sigung Cheung. I have a friend
>who studies GJJ and he will also be there. He may also be interested
>in doing some "testing."
>
>Emin Boztepe and Andrew Draheim - I'm going to test you! Are you
>ready! One...two....three
>
>$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
>
>First he claims he is coming to the seminar to test Emin and Andrew and
>now you claim he doesn't want a seminar and doesn't want Emin. Make up
>your mind.
>
>Rick
Seems to me he's jokingly/sarcastically referring to the way in which the
Boztepe/Cheung incident occurred. Notice how he paraphrases a couple of
Boztepe's statements.
Canardo
In article <52stut$7...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty)
writes:
>In the future, so there are no missunderstandings as to who said what or
>whom is speaking for whom, it would be beneficial for one or the other
>of you to keep the "official" announcments.
Use yourbrain instead.
>>2. TWC bribed the press to force us to wear shoes which are tradional
but
>>not suitable for a fight. So we did not really fight.
>
>Uh, don't remember saying anything about bribes, but go on...this is
>interesting.
Found at:
http://netspace.net.au/~nguyen/germany.html
============================================
The Germany Incident:
Ten years After
Written by Marty
Goldberg
Interview by Russ
Urquhart
"First stage: The Set Up - prior to the attack, the conspirators
organized an interview and photo session with a German martial
arts magazine, which was to take place before the seminar
commenced. This ensured that they had photos of GM Cheung in the
state before and after the attack. They also lured him to change in
to his silk Kung Fu suit and shoes, because they knew that this"
attire
is not practical in activities such as sparring or fighting,
especially on a hardwood polished gym floor.
[Cheung]: We were approached by two people, a
photographer and a journalist, from a German martial arts magazine who
said
they wanted to interview me during the break. They wanted some photos
straight away and asked me to change in to my Kung Fu suit and slippers.
>>3. TWC sent in at least 16 guys. We were forced to fight every single
one
>>of them. So we did not fight.
>
>Wow, even I don't remember writing anything like that down in the article
>you're getting this from. Forced to fight 16 guys?
[Cheung]:"...and I noticed there's about 10-15 people walking behind and
around him.
And
as soon as he came up, they went and formed a circle around us. And he
said,
"I want to fight you now."
[Cheung]: No, they were armed with knives or something. See, and only
during the last month or six weeks when I talked to another Wing Chun --
modified Wing Chun -- instructor, and he told me there's no way they
would
let me win, because they would come one after one after one for five or
six times. If I beat up one, the other one would jump in straight away.
And then another one, and another one. And then even after five or six,
then the whole lot would jump in. There's no way they would let me win.
>Please, go on,
>this is getting almost as good as the story you guys tried to say about
>Sigung Chueng popping up in the middle of Germany and sitting on your
>throne or something.
>
>>4. The same 16 guys waited until we were standing exactly at that point
>>were the bribed press spoiled some oil, so that our stance would not
work
>>anymore. So we did not fight.
>
>Press dropping oil? 16 guys standing over it so a stance would not work?
>Geeze Andy, I excpect a better story than that.
Just a little joke aside :-D. For your next excuses.
>I haven't refused anything. It's not for me to call you and set up, and
>quite frankly it's not for you to be involved in. The only reason I'm
>even involved in this is because it spilled on to the Internet. And i
>did pass on your message and posts. And if you're so upset as to why
>they haven't called back yet, then give a call instead of whining.
>Boztepe isn't the only person with a busy schedule.
<snip>
>Said it several times already, including in the very post your own
response
>was towards. Heck, I've even been saying it since my first post on the
>subject: NEUTRAL GROUND. What's so hard to understand?
<snip>
>Actually, we're still waiting for Emin's. You're just a little thing to
pass
>the time.
For you only, Marty:
OFFICIAL NOTE
Sifu Emin declares that he is gointo fight Julian or whoever TWC sends,
although he recognizes that they are below his status. The fight has to
happen the weekend of October 19th and 20th, though. Since TWC is the
challenger they have to find a neutral place. Sifu Andrew Draheim will
coordinate and schedule the fight for Sifu Emin in NYC. We are awaiting
your response and looking forward to meeting TWC in NYC.
For you only, Marty:
INOFFICIAL SUGGESTION
We could ask John Burke from ESPY-TV, whom Cheung met a couple of weeks
ago to fight in his studio. He can tape it and sell the tape then. So the
public could see. But it is your call.
Sifu Andrew Draheim (for you only, Marty: Draheim, not Drahiem)
Canardo
In article <52sshk$s...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty)
writes:
>>> We wouldn't accept you fighting in his place as was personally posted
>>> here, so why the heck would it be alright for him to send anyone else?
>>> Again Drahiem, you're stepping around the issue. Boztepe-Julian, on
>>> neutral ground, you-Mazza on neutral ground. It's as simple as that.
See my earlier posting. I am happy to fight. I just don't have the time
for boy talk. So if TWC sets everything up (which they should, since they
challenge) Sifu Emin and I will be there.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Michael Dash
can...@aol.com (Canardo) wrote:
>In article <52scua$b...@fu-berlin.de>, Pet...@hotmail.com (Pete R.) writes:
>
>>can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>>
>>>2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>>>mentioned endless times here on the net.
>>
>>Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
>>he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
>>be there. He also cancelled out of one of the Police Academy dates
>>because he couldn't get together his camera crew and reporters in time,
>>or something to that effect. Sarcasm aside, in this case I would say
>>you have no choice but to fight in public.
>
>a.) The Gracie conflict has nothing to do with it. Sifu Emin's challenge
>was a counter challenge to the Royce's. However, being the head of the
>A-EWTO he wanted to fight the head of the Gracie familiy and not the
>little brother.
Nice backpedal, but Boztepe's challenge was the initial challenge between
the Gracies and him. Before Boztepe's challenge letter there was never a
challenged issued to him by the Gracies.
>b.) But that is a different thing. And you most likely do not have the
>the necessary background information to make a judgement.
Actually, most everyone here now has *all* the information.
>c.) Argument b.) is proven by your statement about why Sifu Emin cancelled
>the fight at the LA police academy. But I will not go into detail here
>since this is a totally different story.
He cancelled it because he wussed out!
>>>3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
>>
>>HA!!! Now this is really getting amusing. Since Boztepe challenged
>>the Gracies, they too should have had the right to choose the place
>>and date. They offered their school and several other places, but
>Boztepe
>>then came back with demands about neutral ground.
>
>See above.
The mind control that Boztepe worshipping inflicts is amazing. You make up
this bullshit about what the challenged party has a right to do, but your
logic falls to pieces when discussing Boztepe's challenge to the Gracies.
>> You're really stepping
>>in it now. If Boztepe could insist on neutral ground and the WT people
>>proclaimed his right to do so, then you have no argument why TWC cannot
>>do the same. Under the circumstances the only proper course is to
>>choose a neutral location.
>
>I would do that but I cannot, since TWC refuses to contact me. How should
>I know that they regard some place as a neutral place? So please call me.
>I want this to be over within two weeks. I don't have the time to kid
>around. I have a school to run, that is more important than dealing with
>some want-to-bes.
What about the Extreme Fighting proposal that WT backpedalled out of. That
would have been neutral ground.
>>>4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has the right to send a
>>>fighter of his choice.
>>
>>This is truly incredible. Boztepe did not wish to accord this right to
>>Rorion. I'm sure he now claims that Rorion chickened out. Well, there
>>are no excuses to be had here.
>
>See above.
>
>> You and Boztepe have both been
>>extremely vocal about the superiority of WT, have made veiled threats
>>about putting dire things in motion, and you personally have even gone
>>so far as to say TWC is worthless by comparison to WT.
>
>I said it is ALMOST HOMICIDE to teach TWC. The rest is interpretation.
No, you illiterate imbecile! Adding the almost does nothing to change the
impact of your statement. Your basically saying that TWC is so ineffective
that studying it will increase you chances of getting killed. That's a
strong statement with or without the word "almost".
>> Obviously TWC is
>>tired of it all, and has called your bluff. You must willingly show your
>>cards, or fold and lose all credibility. Find a neutral location in New
>>York, bring lots of cameras, and let's see if you can back up your words.
>>May the best win.
>
>See above. How will I know that TWC regards a place as neutral when they
>refuse to talk to me about it?
Why should they talk with you when it's Boztepe they want in the first
place. you're nothing more than someone hanging on for the ride. Their
primary goal is to have a TWC person whip Boztepe's ass. If you desire to
get you as whipped at the same time as your messiah, then you'll be stuck
doing it at the time and place negotiated for Boztepe.
>>>Victor Parlatti from TWC has my home phone number. I asked him to either
>>>have a beer and straighten things out as intelligent human beings (and
>>>neighbours), or to fight - he called back to basically indicate that he
>is
>>>to afraid too face me.
>>
>>I'm sure the only thing that needed straightening out was your own
>>behavior, since everything was fine before you moved in. In any case
>>Victor Parlatti has not been designated as a fighter in this challenge,
>>and you do not have the right to choose who you will fight in the whole
>>TWC organization. You insulted the art, and accepted the challenge, you
>>must face one of the fighters chosen to represent TWC.
>
>No comment necessary.
>
>Sifu Andrew Draheim
Just another WT Seafood Idiot!
Canardo
>>> Ignoring you and saying "Leave my fucking flyers alone" in response is
>>> being afraid? Walk in there and challenge him, and see how afraid he
>>
>>Why? You guys have waited, what 9 years? to challenge Sifu...now let us
>>all see what you are made of...you want him...you know where he will
>>be...when he will be there...what is the damn problem?
>
>The above had nothing to do with the challenge little one. It had to do
>with Drahiem walking around the building and ripping off Sifu Parlati's
>flyers to put up his own. What's the damn problem? Got brain freeze,
>or is that collar and leash around your neck a bit too tight?
A perfect example of TWC misleading information policy.
1. I did not put down Parlati's flyers around the building. Just a single
one which was on the message board designated to my studio.
2.He did not write "Leave my fucking flyers alone" onto his flyer he put
up after he put mine down, he wrote: "Attention: Draheim: Leave my flyers
alone!!!"
3. I don't challenge him because I respect the neutrality of our host and
landlord
4. This whimp is not important enough that I actually care about him as
long as he leaves me alone or he becomes a student of mine.
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Michael Dash
Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Pete R. wrote:
>>
>> can...@aol.com (Canardo) writes:
>>
>> >2. We don't fight in public as long as we don't have to, for reasons we
>> >mentioned endless times here on the net.
>>
>> Hmm, this must be why when Boztepe issued his challenge to the Gracies,
>> he wanted to make sure all the cameras, reporters, and TV people would
>> be there.
>
>That was different. From his perspective, he was challenged first,
>replied that he doesn't fight in competitions, and was called
>a chicken by representatives of the challengers.
What are you talking about? There were no "challengers" to Boztepe and no
representatives calling him chicken. Art Davie, the UFC fight promoter,
called Boztepe and asked him if he wanted to be in the UFC. Boztepe said
no, and Art went about recruiting other fighters. When it was discussed on
this newsgroup that Boztepe, the man who never turns down a challenge such
as the UFC, turned down the UFC, Mike Adams ran back to Boztepe to let him
know that the secret of his cowardice may actually get exposed. Art Davie
has nothing to do with this, and certainly the Gracies had nothing to do
with this. Boztepe knew this way before he issued his challenge. Boztepe
didn't issue a counter challenge, and anyone who says is lying. He issued
a challenge as a publicity stunt to make it appear like he had some guts.
He backed down from his own challenge and his plan backfired because more
people now know him as a coward.
>I thought we had gone over all this before. Let's not bring it
>up again. I f you feel the need to hash out why it's a
>different situation, please change the subject line and
>start and appropriate thread.
Don't jump in, post a quick lie about the Boztepe/Gracie challenge, then
say "let's not bring it up again" and expect us to do this. Screw that!
The Boztepe/Gracie challenge is completely relevant to any future Boztepe
challenge because he set a precedence with it, in writing. It's a written
record of proof that he doesn't even honor his own challenges to other
people, so why should people challenging him expect any better of him.
Sorry, but whether you like it or not, the two challenges are relevant to
each other and will be discussed together.
Michael Peter
Joe wrote:
>
> Michael Strange wrote:
> >
> > Marty wrote:
> >
> >
>
> -snip-
>
> >
> > > Actually, no. You've only stated that you don't fight in tournaments.
> > > Nothing about not fighting in public. This is not a tournament.
> >
> > True, we are told not to fight in tournaments. However, as to Sifu not
> > fighting in the UFC...I would not let someone I wanted to fight make a
> > dime off of the thing. Why fight someone in thier tournamet, where they
> > will make possibly millions off of, win or loose. And if they lost, it
> > would just be another sad excuse on their part...Royce would have had
> > low blood sugar again...
>
> Funny, Royce losing to a 200lb (approx.) fighter (unproven) with NO grappling
> skills. Yeah...sure...that would have happened.
>
Hmm, guess you didn't *see* that UFC.
> >
> > > And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
> > Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
> > and weapons...you know...a duel. Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
>
> Man, what a fucking idiot you must be. Boztepe challenges Gracie, Gracie
> choses place, Boztepe backs out saying it's not fair. Now, when the situation
> is reversed, you wan't the same rights you wouldn't allow the Gracies to have.
> Unbelievable
The situation isn't reversed. The Gracie situation was different:
Boztepe gets "invited" to the UFC, declines, is called a coward
by Gracie representatives on the Net and then responds. Then the
two groups start haggling over details and the whole thing
never goes through. In fact, the original letter was for a
*team* of WT fighters, and the Gracie response was "you (Sifu
Emin) fight Royce." So who is challenging whom? They even
passed on having as many WT fighters as they could stand
come and fight.
The UFC organizers also refused reputable fighters from TWC
as well.
[snip]
> >
> > After a student of his beat your SiGung...I hardly think he would
> > *lower* himself to fight him. You know, you have to prove you are
> > worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
> > internet is not earning the right.
>
> Funny, Boztepe never EARNED SHIT yet he still challenged the Gracie camp
> and they accepted. If your rule applies, Boztepe should have fought a lower
> level GJJ fighter. Damn, that would have been funny to see your reasoning
> for Boztepe getting his ass kicked by a GJJ bluebelt.
See above. The letter offered a team. And and you aren't the
personal biographer of Dai-Sifu Emin, so you have no idea what
he has or hasn't earned.
[snip]
> > But is what is commonly acepted since the middle ages. You challenge, I
> > choose time, place, weapons, and my fighter. Quite common among nobel
> > houses. Since we are talking about the Elite of our systems...they
> > pretty much qualify, do they not?
>
> Once again, pretty funny stuff. Wish you would have had that thinking during
> the Gracie challenge.
Again, the entire basis for your argument is incorrect.
Drawing any conclusions from it, then, is specious at
best. Unless, and apparently, your reason is to aid in
the mud-slinging.
>
> Once again, wish the wt cult would have had this state of mind during the
> Gracie challenge.
>
See above.
[snip]
>
> Did your dad sodimize you a lot? Would explain the Homoerotic passion you
> show for Anal Blowstippy.
>
See above.
[snip]
>
> Yup, Give them Boztepe's number and it'll be fair.
>
The A-EWTO headquarter's number is posted on the homepage.
Mike
A-EWTO
Rick Shank
In article <52ubu2$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Canardo <can...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <52stut$7...@uwm.edu>, boot...@alumni.cs.uwm.edu (Marty)
>writes:
>
Lots of funny stuff from sihing (sifu) Draheim deleted. People are wondering
why I'm sitting here all alone laughing. ;^)
>
>For you only, Marty:
>
>OFFICIAL NOTE
>
>Sifu Emin declares that he is gointo fight Julian or whoever TWC sends,
>although he recognizes that they are below his status. The fight has to
>happen the weekend of October 19th and 20th, though. Since TWC is the
>challenger they have to find a neutral place. Sifu Andrew Draheim will
>coordinate and schedule the fight for Sifu Emin in NYC. We are awaiting
>your response and looking forward to meeting TWC in NYC.
>
>For you only, Marty:
>
UNOFFICIAL SUGGESTION
>
>We could ask John Burke from ESPY-TV, whom Cheung met a couple of weeks
>ago to fight in his studio. He can tape it and sell the tape then. So the
>public could see. But it is your call.
>
Looks like you had better get you hands out of your pockets and hop to if
you want to catch this train Marty. Here is your request officially
validated and you only need to call to solidify it. The reason it must be
that weekend is because Emin is in *your fighter's* neighborhood that weekend.
Check his schedule. Almost immediately afterwords, he is in Europe for the
next round of seminars. This is the same schedule he has had for years so
there is nothing new here.
Your pal requested the challenge and neutral territory. Your pal got his
request. Maybe you can come up with another constraint like putting on the
requirement that it must be a PPV competition. Emin already claimed he won't
fight for entertainment. Here is your out. Fight or flight. Your challenge
has been accepted. What do you do now?
Of course, you always have all the Pete R. Dashs on your side. You can weasel
and they will still be behind you. If I were you, I'd watch my back. They are
not the people to trust behind you. Of course, Dash is such a puss, all he can
do is talk behind your back. As soon as you turn around, he'll run.
Rick - politics makes strange bedfellows
P.S. Once again, I speak for nobody but myself.
Sabia Mir
>
> Nice excuses! So now, Boztepe is too busy to fight. Then why is
> everyone in your cult presenting him as someone who will fight anyone
> at anytime, when we know this isn't true. He won't "fight anyone" but
> he'll "be in flight from anyone". :)
>
Michael, what is it with you? I'm just curious, really.
What's your thing with Emin Boztepe? You really don't know anything about
the whole matter firsthand, do you?
Ace
Michael Dash
Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> wrote:
>> > > And where is this written? Usually two sides work this out.
>> > Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
>> > and weapons...you know...a duel. Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
>>
>> Man, what a fucking idiot you must be. Boztepe challenges Gracie, Gracie
>> choses place, Boztepe backs out saying it's not fair. Now, when the situation
>> is reversed, you wan't the same rights you wouldn't allow the Gracies to have.
>> Unbelievable
>
>The situation isn't reversed. The Gracie situation was different:
>Boztepe gets "invited" to the UFC, declines, is called a coward
>by Gracie representatives on the Net and then responds. Then the
Bullshit! Up until Boztepe backpedalled out of is own challenge, no one
called him "coward". That's what you guys were just telling him. Boztepe's
challenge was the initial encounter between him and the Gracies which makes
it a challenge, not a counter challenge. Prior to Boztepe's challenge,
there was no contact between the Gracies and Boztepe.
>two groups start haggling over details and the whole thing
>never goes through. In fact, the original letter was for a
What haggling over details? Boztepe's challenge clearly waived any
requirements over where and when the fight took place. He said "We do
not mind fighting you in the ring set up by your own organization. The
offer to fight at the Torrance Academy, the Police Academy, and a special
bout at the UFC all met the conditions of Boztepe's challenge letter.
>*team* of WT fighters, and the Gracie response was "you (Sifu
>Emin) fight Royce." So who is challenging whom? They even
>passed on having as many WT fighters as they could stand
>come and fight.
Unlike WT, there is a serious shortage of GJJ Black Belts. The only
one under Rorion's organization is Royce, so he couldn't come up with five
fighters. I, personally, like the idea of several people from one style
vs. several people from another style, but it couldn't be pulled off at.
However, it doesn't change the fact that Boztepe would have been in one
fight, so the number of other people that fight is irrelevant.
>The UFC organizers also refused reputable fighters from TWC
>as well.
Talk about changing the subject and going off into left field! What does
this have to do with Boztepe's challenge. I have publicly criticized SEG
for not inviting the people hand picked by William Cheung, but there's
nothing I can do about it.
>[snip]
>> >
>> > After a student of his beat your SiGung...I hardly think he would
>> > *lower* himself to fight him. You know, you have to prove you are
>> > worthy to fight the headman of any system. Having people yell on the
>> > internet is not earning the right.
>>
>> Funny, Boztepe never EARNED SHIT yet he still challenged the Gracie camp
>> and they accepted. If your rule applies, Boztepe should have fought a lower
>> level GJJ fighter. Damn, that would have been funny to see your reasoning
>> for Boztepe getting his ass kicked by a GJJ bluebelt.
>
>See above. The letter offered a team. And and you aren't the
>personal biographer of Dai-Sifu Emin, so you have no idea what
^^^^^^^^^
Since when did Boztepe get promoted from Seafood to Dick Seafood?
>he has or hasn't earned.
>
>
>[snip]
>> > But is what is commonly acepted since the middle ages. You challenge, I
>> > choose time, place, weapons, and my fighter. Quite common among nobel
>> > houses. Since we are talking about the Elite of our systems...they
>> > pretty much qualify, do they not?
>>
>> Once again, pretty funny stuff. Wish you would have had that thinking during
>> the Gracie challenge.
>
>Again, the entire basis for your argument is incorrect.
>Drawing any conclusions from it, then, is specious at
>best. Unless, and apparently, your reason is to aid in
>the mud-slinging.
No he has a completely valid point! Your guys is justifying that if Emin
is challenged, then he has the right to pick a representative, yet when
Rorion picked Royce as the family representative, Boztepe tried to invent
the excuse the he really wanted to fight Rorion as a ruse to backpedal out
of the fight with Royce.
Michael Strange
> >willing to fight any time, anywhere, and anyone to prove it...sounds to
> >me like he was asking for a confrontation.
>
> This is incorrect. Please do a little more research. That's propoganda
> from the WT camp.
Nope, I have seen the artical.
>
> >Secondly, (and I heard all of this before I even met Sifu Boztepe, or
> >had seen Wing Tsun) There is the story of how William went to a WT
> >school in Germany, sat in the Head Mans chair and asked if anyone was
> >going to do anything about it. Since Sijo Leung Ting and SiGung
> >Kernspecht were not there, it seems that he was looking to fight lower
> >ranked people.
>
> This is incorrect. Sigun Cheung had never been to Germany before, except
> for a trip 25 or so years ago across Europe (non-wing chun related) that
> toured through Germany 1 or two days.
> He was called to add the seminar in Germany the last minute in fact, didn't
> even have time to get a work visa.
>
> Boy, you guys are just making more and more stuff up.
Nope, I heard that one from a student of another system of Wing Chun,
again, long before I started the Wing Tsun. I already had the hand sets
from Wing Chun. I found Wing Tsun to be much more logical, reasonable,
and streamlined. I find TWC to be...different.
> >It was after those two incidents that Sifu Boztepe went
> >to visit William, and give him the fight he wanted: A lower ranked
> >opponent (Sifu was not a master yet), anytime (the seminar), anywhere
> >(the seminar).
>
> More hogwash.
Ahhh...Then you concede the fact that even a five year student of Wing
Tsun is equal to or higher than your Grand Master?
> You might want to go back and check your facts. There was a challenge
> between Ting and Sigung Cheung, which is what was asked for. Not lower
> level then Ting already was. And then one of you guys changed that to
> say "Oh, he was just answering the challenge to Ting." And now it's
> that he was answering some magical challenge where Sigung Cheung suddenly
> popped up in the middle of Germany from Australia sat in a chair of some
> no-name WT school and wanted a fight? Geeze man, you guys don't realize
> how sophmoric you sound.
Might not have been true, as I said, I heard that one a long time ago
from a friend of mine who has *met* William Cheung. He was not
impressed with your GM and stayed with WC. When he met Sifu Boztepe (I
asked him to come to a seminar) He *Was* impressed.
I do not speak for Sifu Emin Boztepe, Sijo Leung Ting, SiGung Keith
Kernspecht, or any other people...just myself.
After meeting Sifu Boztepe, I feel he did respond due to the statements
of Cheung and the challenge.
> He'd walk right through Ting's front door of his house before he'd waste
> his time going to a no-name branch of Ting's in Germany.
Well...a five year student of Wing Tsun kicked his butt, got it on
video...I think he would think twice before going to someone higher.
> >If you guys are still so pissed that Emin Beat William at his
> >seminar...why not return the favor.
>
> Bzzzt. Try again. If you were even a smidgen up to date on this, you'd
> know that we (as do others outside our organization) don't even consider
> anything to have happened to Sigung Cheung. Didn't have a scratch on
> him, continued with the seminar, and left the next day going on with
> his seminar tour.
Then...why all the hostility? Because we have cooler cloths? You never
learned the secret WC handshake? What?
> What we're pissed at is the cowardly and slimeball way it was done.
You say you will fight anyone, anytime, anyplace and are upset when
someone calls you to task for it?
> Where?!?! Get the facts straight. We said he had people in waiting. And he
> did, even by his own admission.
Funny, all I saw were one or two other guys.
> That convinces me you're just spouting propoganda like a little underling.
> Try and do a little research on you own story. Emin said he was there
> with a cameraman and a second to watch his back.
My initial mistake. But, still...two other guys against the entire
Chueng seminar in case it developed into a free for all?
> Our claim is that it didn't just stop with the second. There were others
> "watching his back" as well.
The gunman on the grasssy knoll...
> Two people need to be making an effort to beat each other up to call it
> a fight. Sigung Cheung did pure self defense. When they both slipped
> and fell to the ground, he went right to his back and laid there using
> Emin as coverage so as not to expose his own body to whatever Emin's
> "backup" had planned. Then he neutralized at the elbows and baited
> time until Emin got up and ran off.
See...I was never taught that when I studied WC...you let the other guy
pound on you until they get tired and leave. No wonder I switched
systems.
> Why would he have fear from his own people?
The seminar was his own people? What the hell was Cheung doing in a WT
Seminar? Trying to learn real Wing Chun?
> We will be. Emin's. And Ting's, and Drahiem's if they get their act together
> and quit trying to sidestep. It's like you people can only fight where you
> have a bunch or yoursleves there as well.
I have not seen any side stepping...just an acceptance, and a desire to
get the arrangements made ASAP...now YOU guys...you seem to be doing the
ol softshoe.
> >Actually, it dates back to the middle ages. You challenge, I pick place
> >and weapons...you know...a duel.
>
> Whose middle ages? More german "warrior spirit" crap that the WT people seem
> to be so fond of? Try following some of your own advice then little man.
The period of time known of as the Middle Ages...All through Europe.
You did go to school, did you not?
> >Hello...Hello...is anyone in there?
>
> Getting a lot of echo in that gap between your ears, eh? Or is that just the
> buildup of earwax that's blocking your hearing?
No..I just find it hard to believe that something mostly water can be so
incredibly dense.
> Actually no, I'm typing. And again, quit being led around on a leash and do
You can type? I was beginning to think that you had someone do that for
you. Now if you can type and (i presume) read...get a history book and
read about the Middle Ages.
> some thinking (and reading) for yourself. Drahiem wanted to accept the
Pretty cool, I thought. If the 3rd level Technician, SiSok Drahiem, is
not afraid to fight, what makes you think that a 6th level Practitioner
is?
> challenge. The challenge was for Emin (duh). Hence we are happy to
> provide a fighter for Drahiem as well because he said he is interested in
> fighting. Hence we are supplying Sifu Mazza.
You sure like to sacrifice your seniors. Mabey that is how you go up in
rank. Over the bodies of your fallen comrades.
>
> >bring friends...you guys will need someone
> >to carry you out.
>
> The playground is out that way and to the right. This is a serious challenge
> and denotes a seious talk. Leave this for serious people and go run along
> now (pat pat).
Serious? YOU? Bwahahahahahahahahaha.
> Gee, and I thought it was stated here numerous times that Emin was a student
> of Kernspechts. Wow, I guess a) we're uncovering more lies or b) more holes
> in your story kiddo.
Sifu Emin is SiGung Kernspecht's student. He *also* studies with Sijo
Leung Ting...It is like a family. SiGung Kernspecht is his kung fu
father, Sijo Leung Ting is his Kung Fu Grandfather...he is thus related
to them both. (am I going slow enough for you?) Thus, it can be said
that (since he also studies with Sijo Leung Ting) Sifu Emin is the
student of Sijo Leung Ting as well. (see? was that so hard? Now can
you tell me the color of the little red ball?)
> Actually, it's Sigung Cheung that would be lowering himself to fight Ting, who
> we consider to be two generations below, if even that close.
But, we have already established that the two factions do not agree with
what the other thinks, so why should I care what you think your ranking
is? I have not even mentioned what *I* think of William Cheung.
> Blah, blah blah. If that's the smoke cloud of reasoning Ting is going to duck
> and hide behind, then I guess he'll never come out to play (and get a spanking.
> I would never say "beating" like Drahiem, because we don't believe in picking
> on the weak and frail.)
Like I even Know Sijo Leung Ting. I have never even met him. Hope to
this October. How can I even begin to know what he thinks? As for
being weak and frail...the last clear image I have of your GM is on the
floor whith Sifu wacking on him.
> Get a life. This isn't 1500's Germany. It's 1996, in the U.S. And as Emin
> himself admitted, when he went to challenge Sigung Cheung and said "I want
> to challenge you" (thereby declaring himself as the challenger) and Sigung
> Cheung said "Fine, after the seminar" (which Emin has admitted) Emin
> admitted that he was afraid Sigung Cheung would back out if he waited till
> later, so he attacked on the spot. Thereby negating any sort of "commonly
> accepted practice". And conrtary to popular opinion, Europe is not the
> center of culture or standards of operating procedures for the entire history
> of the world. There's a whole nother part out there kiddo. And if we're
> going to talk about commonly accepted European challenge customs, then he
> should have walked up to Sigung Cheung, slapped him across the cheaks with
> a glove, and said "I challenge you." Then set up a date, both people have
> seconds, as well as a neutral party to govern the match. So get with
> the program.
I always heard that he said something more on the line of "I accept your
challenge" while showing the magazine. Hmph..go figure.
As for the reference to the proper standards for duels, you did ask
where that concept came from...I was simply trying to fill that void in
your education.
> Well, if anybody gave a rats ass what you though then I guess it would mean
> something. Unfortunately you're a nobody, bringing nothing to this
> conversation.
You mean you don't? gosh..now I am crushed. But, if I am a nothing,
and I pissed you off..then you must be less than nothing.
> >Or are you guys already trying to back out of it?
>
> Same thing Drahiem tried to say. Must be yanking your leash.
Never met him either.
> The above had nothing to do with the challenge little one. It had to do
> with Drahiem walking around the building and ripping off Sifu Parlati's
> flyers to put up his own. What's the damn problem? Got brain freeze,
> or is that collar and leash around your neck a bit too tight?
Man, try not to bring your feeverish sexual fantasies in here...take
them to the alt.sex groups.
> Get it straight. The challenge was sent to Emin. Period. It's his
> turn to contact US to tell if he accepts or declines. All we've
> heard from is underlings.
It is my understanding that they have athority to speak on his behalf.
Why should he talk to every upstart with a computer, pen or typewriter?
First arrange though proper channels, then he will talk to you.
> That's a good one. I almost laughed at that bit of second grade humor.
Well...I did have to scale down to your IQ level.
> >Sounds like you are getting ready to back out in masse...
>
> More wishful thinking on your part.
No...wishful thinking on my part is to be able to see the fight.
> Yes, of course, that makes sense. The challenge was from Julian, to Emin, but
> you must talk to Sigung Cheung. The united allies in the middleast are
> bombing Iraq, so Iraq tries to go after Israel. Makes sense.
That was a sarcastic response to your double standards. You know
sarcasm, right? It is what you claim the Julian post was.
>
> >...we only need to talk to
> >him...not your damn numbers...only him...why do we have to talk to you?
>
> Why do we have to talk to you? Or to Drahiem, or anyone else? We only need
> to talk to Emin...not his damn followers...only him.
>
> >Sound familiar?
>
> Sound familiar?
You can imitate!!! Can you roll over and play dead?
> We will not sink to a dogs level to get the dog to come out and play. And
> we will not do it in your environemt for no one else to see, so you can make
> up more stories like the last time.
Whatever.
> It's really very simple:
>
> 1) Neutral ground
Where is suitable? A Police station?
> 2) In the open for everyone in the world to see (not some little private seminar)
Central Park?
> 3) We are even willing to wait until after his "busy schedule" if he needs it.
> We'd just as soon do it the weekend he's in New York if he wants it then
> that bad. Just simply put, neutral ground, open to the public. Like you
> said, what's the damn problem?
He probably will be tied up for several months, years, etc. And you
would claim that because he did not change his schedule, that he was
ducking you. Get real.
> This is my last response to you Michael. I don't have time for little boy talk,
> although I will say this has been fun. I'm sure you'll come back with more
> stories, possibly like Sigung Cheung popping up suddenly among the astronauts
> in the space station Mir, giving everyone the finger and sitting in the pilot's
> seats challenging everyone to dethrone him or something. And of course, you'll
> have more insults and half-formulated ideas based on what nonesense you've
> been brainwashed with.
You really mean it? I pissed you off that much. Great!!! Mabey you
will read this, mabey not.
> Dropping you in the /kill file now, so long!
Gasp...not the kill file!!!
Michael
Michael Strange
Joe wrote:
> Funny, Royce losing to a 200lb (approx.) fighter (unproven) with NO grappling
> skills. Yeah...sure...that would have happened.
Yep...sure seemed like it to me...my friends...
> Man, what a fucking idiot you must be. Boztepe challenges Gracie, Gracie
> choses place, Boztepe backs out saying it's not fair. Now, when the situation
> is reversed, you wan't the same rights you wouldn't allow the Gracies to have.
> Unbelievable
Now there you go getting personal. Gracies challenge everyone. Gracies
put down all other martial arts. Gracies claim that the fighters who
refuse to fight in UFC are afraid of them. Emin says he will fight, but
not where they can make money off of it. Gracies try to get him to go
to a police station to fight. Yep..seems pretty stright forward to me.
>
> Funny, Boztepe never EARNED SHIT yet he still challenged the Gracie camp
> and they accepted. If your rule applies, Boztepe should have fought a lower
> level GJJ fighter. Damn, that would have been funny to see your reasoning
> for Boztepe getting his ass kicked by a GJJ bluebelt.
I have yet to see a Gracie anything FIGHT his way out of a paper
bag...Oh wait...you are talking about the professional wrestling take
off UFC!! Nyah..never happen.
> Once again, pretty funny stuff. Wish you would have had that thinking during
> the Gracie challenge.
I thought we did. Inside Kung Fu offered a place, Martial Arts Gazette
offered a place, Black Belt Magazine offered a place...but no Gracie
accepted.
> If they were, they'd just be taking after you guys (the wt cult).
OOOOHHH good comeback.
> Once again, wish the wt cult would have had this state of mind during the
> Gracie challenge.
see above.
> Did your dad sodimize you a lot? Would explain the Homoerotic passion you
> show for Anal Blowstippy.
No. He was too busy trying to pry your mouth off of his dick.
Admiration for a TRUE martial arts master is not an erotic fixation.
Now, let us talk about your fixation on GJJ. I know a martial arts guy
around here, who was excited about GJJ. He knows someone who is
training in it. He asked if I was interested and I passed. What with
all that grabbing and rolling around on the ground with other men...Not
my thing...BUT it is OBVIOUSLY yours!!!
> Yup, Give them Boztepe's number and it'll be fair.
Inside Kung Fu list the numbers you can call to reach Sifu Emin... You,
them and everyone else.
Michael
Life is too short to be taken seriously.
Pete R.
In article <52uf08$b...@amdint2.amd.com>, ri...@dvorak.amd.com says...
>Of course, you always have all the Pete R. Dashs on your side. You can
>weasel and they will still be behind you.
Not at all, I've been waiting for an official response from Boztepe and
it finally came. WT could still create logistical hassles and make it
so things don't come together before the artificial deadline. However
if such is the case I think WT would look the worse for it since they
would then have failed to come to terms with two different organizations
for a challenge. And, since we've been told that insults to the WT family
can be addressed as a "self-defense" issue, I would think WT would do
its best to see that these fights really occur. At this instant it looks
promising that something will be arranged. Just think, after two years
of waiting we might actually get to see WT fight someone. Pretty high
stakes too, if WT wins they'll be laughing all the way to the bank, plus
the criticism here about WT never fighting anybody would go away. On the
other hand if WT loses, the claim that it's the bestest most sooper-dooper
art on the planet goes on the trash heap, and the WTers will endure the
biggest drubbing here since the dawn of the Internet. :) Stay tuned.
Canardo
And BTW. This will be my last posting until I hear anything from TWC
directly or until I see any steps further into the direction of an actual
fight. We accepted the challenge and it is up to TWC to make ensure that
the fight can happen.
I am waiting....
Sifu Andrew Draheim
Michael Peter
You have your response Marty. There is no need for any followups until
the fight has been arranged. Please contact Julian and the appropriate
people on your side. If you view a Net response from Dai Sifu Emin
via Sifu Andrew as insufficient, then I'd take that as stalling on
your part and conclude that the TWC challenge is not serious. As I
said, if you are serious, then *be* serious.
If you need any help setting this up, or any other information to
make this happen, please do not hesitate to contact Sifu Andrew or
myself.
till then,
Mike
A-EWTO
Marty
Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> says:
>Canardo wrote:
>>
>> And BTW. This will be my last posting until I hear anything from TWC
>> directly or until I see any steps further into the direction of an actual
>> fight. We accepted the challenge and it is up to TWC to make ensure that
>> the fight can happen.
>>
>> I am waiting....
>>
>> Sifu Andrew Draheim
>
>
>You have your response Marty. There is no need for any followups until
>the fight has been arranged. Please contact Julian and the appropriate
>people on your side. If you view a Net response from Dai Sifu Emin
>via Sifu Andrew as insufficient, then I'd take that as stalling on
>your part and conclude that the TWC challenge is not serious. As I
>said, if you are serious, then *be* serious.
I phone Dave Copeland, the WWCKFA business manager (located in New York)
and gave him the appropriate info. He told me he would be calling
Draheim at the given numbers sometime today.
>If you need any help setting this up, or any other information to
>make this happen, please do not hesitate to contact Sifu Andrew or
>myself.
Thanks for the offer, however, I am not the one setting this up. Just
the relayer of information. One quick note though that I did check up
on personally: Julian has no AOL account. That was not his post.
>till then,
>
>Mike
>A-EWTO
Marty
WWCKFA
Joe
Canardo wrote:
>
> And BTW. This will be my last posting until I hear anything from TWC
> directly or until I see any steps further into the direction of an actual
> fight. We accepted the challenge and it is up to TWC to make ensure that
> the fight can happen.
>
> I am waiting....
>
> Sifu Andrew Draheim
Sounds pretty straight forward to me. If you TWC guys set
up the place and time, they'll fight. Good luck to all parties
involved (except tippy of course).
--
-- Joe --
-------------------------------------------------------------
"There was a hint of danger, They told him it's ok
There was a chance of failure, they told him it's alright
A false security, driven by a weakened state of mind
It's calling and calling..."
Face to Face
Joe
Rick Shank wrote:
>
> In article <52ubu2$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Canardo <can...@aol.com> wrote:
> why I'm sitting here all alone laughing. ;^)
>
> >
> >
> >OFFICIAL NOTE
> >
> >Sifu Emin declares that he is gointo fight Julian or whoever TWC sends,
> >although he recognizes that they are below his status. The fight has to
> >happen the weekend of October 19th and 20th, though. Since TWC is the
> >challenger they have to find a neutral place. Sifu Andrew Draheim will
> >coordinate and schedule the fight for Sifu Emin in NYC. We are awaiting
> >your response and looking forward to meeting TWC in NYC.
> >
Well, this is as straight forward as it can be. I've got to give WT credit
where credit is due, they appear to not be backing out of the challenge (as
of yet). If TWC can get something set up, its all on you guys. WT has called
you on your challenge.
HntrRos
Rick Shank (ri...@dvorak.amd.com) stutters:
:Are all you guys homosexual/homophobic perverts?
After being exposed to typical Shankian teutologies, I can sympathise. : )
HntrRos
Rick Shank (ri...@dvorak.amd.com) writes:
:He should have. If you are attacked, you had better intend on hurting
your
:attacker or you are taking a big chance.
Ah, yes.... you advocate reacting to the slightest shove with a ridgid
finger in the throat, correct? An enraged driver swinging a fist is best
met with chain-punches to the larnyx? -Or so you've said. : )
(I was paraphrasing.)
:C'mon, you can do better than that. Student takes on grandmaster with
:one guy to watch his back and one guy to take pictures at grandmaster's
:own seminar...
..... in his own home town. I'm sure Emin would be happy to give
a seminar in Brazil, with all of that warm support to lift his wings. : )
:Pfffttttt!!!!!!!! A fair fight in neutral territory is a competition.
Yes; unfortunately, having one combatant tackle the other from
behind doesn't generally lend itself to hermeneutical venture.
:Since when would anyone condiser killing someone in a fair fight in
neutral
:territory?
If so much of your style revolves around these "lethal" techniques,
then why do you not use circular goggles and finger-paint to determine
whether a strike touches or not?
:You aren't making any sense.
Those living in huts of glass....
:I hope you get the picture. I don't speak for WT. I speak for myself,
period.
You speak (or, rather, lisp, drooling all the way) for youself, yes-
but about WT, its supposed superiority, and, as you seem to constantly
be couching at the crotch of Boztepe & co, it is difficult for many
to realise at first glance just how liberally "WT" you are.
???
Mike,
It seems that you have been insulting people for well over the past
year on matters that do not concern you personally. Why not just let it
die? You're an adult, no? Move on with your life. Accomplish something.
By the way, how long have you been with GJJ? Don't the Gracies claim
that within 6 mos. of GJJ training you should be a match for other systems'
black belts?
There comes a time when children have to leave the nest. We know that
Royce, Ricksan, etc. are all great. We also know that they aren't the ones
who come on here talking trash, calling names, and basically acting like a
child. If you want to carry the torch for the Gracies... if you want to
defend their claims... why don't YOU go clean Boztepe's clock?
Sincerely,
Matthew Roozee
mro...@math.uci.edu
Michael Dash
Michael Strange <mstr...@voyageronline.net> wrote:
>Joe wrote:
>
>> Funny, Royce losing to a 200lb (approx.) fighter (unproven) with NO grappling
>> skills. Yeah...sure...that would have happened.
>
>Yep...sure seemed like it to me...my friends...
Since Royce is the only person to enter the UFC and not be beaten by
anybody it's hard to know who you are talking about. With the exception of
a forfeit to Harold Howard and a draw with Ken Shamrock, Royce has mad
everyone he has fought tap out.
>> Man, what a fucking idiot you must be. Boztepe challenges Gracie, Gracie
>> choses place, Boztepe backs out saying it's not fair. Now, when the situation
>> is reversed, you wan't the same rights you wouldn't allow the Gracies to have.
>> Unbelievable
>
>Now there you go getting personal. Gracies challenge everyone. Gracies
>put down all other martial arts. Gracies claim that the fighters who
Since when did the Gracies put down all other martial arts? you won't find
anything from the Gracies that's derragatory about other styles. They
simply promote their style of ground fighting.
>refuse to fight in UFC are afraid of them. Emin says he will fight, but
The Gracies have never said this. What are you talking about?
>not where they can make money off of it. Gracies try to get him to go
>to a police station to fight. Yep..seems pretty stright forward to me.
In Boztepe's original challenge letter he says "winner takes all the
money", so the Gracies making money, only if they won, was not an issue
since he was the one to insist on the winner getting all the money.
>> Funny, Boztepe never EARNED SHIT yet he still challenged the Gracie camp
>> and they accepted. If your rule applies, Boztepe should have fought a lower
>> level GJJ fighter. Damn, that would have been funny to see your reasoning
>> for Boztepe getting his ass kicked by a GJJ bluebelt.
>
>I have yet to see a Gracie anything FIGHT his way out of a paper
>bag...Oh wait...you are talking about the professional wrestling take
>off UFC!! Nyah..never happen.
Huh? If you think UFC is fake, take it up with Reza Nasri, the WT expert
who got his ass whipped in record time.
>> Once again, pretty funny stuff. Wish you would have had that thinking during
>> the Gracie challenge.
>
>I thought we did. Inside Kung Fu offered a place, Martial Arts Gazette
>offered a place, Black Belt Magazine offered a place...but no Gracie
>accepted.
Not true, and I have the letter to prove it. Rorion agreed to have Royce
fight at these locations if Boztepe could provide a letter from the mayor
or chief of police protecting them from legal action, just like Boztepe's
lawyer asked from Rorion when offered the fight at the Police Academy.
You obviously don't have ANY of the facts on this issue.
Michael W. Huthman
Two kids wrote:
>
>
> > If they were, they'd just be taking after you guys (the wt cult).
>
> OOOOHHH good comeback.
>
>
> > Did your dad sodimize you a lot? Would explain the Homoerotic passion you
> > show for Anal Blowstippy.
>
>
> No. He was too busy trying to pry your mouth off of his dick.
>
Yes folks, as amazing as it looks, these people do claim to be civilized
martial artists.
Robb
: Mike,
:
: It seems that you have been insulting people for well over the past
: year on matters that do not concern you personally. Why not just let it
Im not Mike, and I dont speak for him... but...
I can critisize that *UTTER SHIT* I saw from Bruce Seldon against Mike
Tyson all I want. That does NOT mean I have to go out and fight Mike
Tyson myself though.
See the point? Think about it... he isnt speaking as a professional
fighter, he's speaking as a fan.
Robb
Michael Peter
Michael Dash wrote:
>
> Huh? If you think UFC is fake, take it up with Reza Nasri, the WT expert
> who got his ass whipped in record time.
>
Quick clarification for everyone else: Reza Nasri, who is
not a WT expert, and is only a student grade or two above
me, used no WT in his bout in the UFC. He relied on
his Greco-Roman background, and lost to the bigger, stronger,
and more aggressive opponent.
Mike
A-EWTO
Lawrence Eng
I haven't seen the fight, but I guess I can buy your argument. A few
questions, though:
Why is it that WT is so easy to forget? Surely, since WT operates according
to set principles of attack that should translate to all forms of
combat (punching, kicking, elbow-strikes, grappling, etc.) how could Nasri
forget all these principles so quickly? He should have been able to apply
his WT principles of attack no matter what situation he was in. After all,
isn't WT supposed to be a complete system?
If it really is as you say, that Nasri consciously decided not to rely on
his WT skills, does this mean that Nasri had such little faith in his art?
Perhaps his opponent was skilled enough to somehow prevent Nasri from using
his WT. I don't know. I've only read about the fight.
Is it so easy for a martial artist to forget all his training in a
real one-on-one confrontation, especially training as good as WT is supposed
to be? I find this very disconcerting. Perhaps others feel the same way.
-Lawrence
>Mike
>A-EWTO
Michael Dash
mro...@math.uci.edu (???) wrote:
>Mike,
>
> It seems that you have been insulting people for well over the past
>year on matters that do not concern you personally. Why not just let it
>die? You're an adult, no? Move on with your life. Accomplish something.
Actually, what I've been doing is revealing the truth about Boztepe in an
entertaining, satirical, and fun manner.
> By the way, how long have you been with GJJ? Don't the Gracies claim
>that within 6 mos. of GJJ training you should be a match for other systems'
>black belts?
Actually, the Gracies don't "claim" this. I think some people, bragging on
behalf of GJJ, have made this statement.
> There comes a time when children have to leave the nest. We know that
>Royce, Ricksan, etc. are all great. We also know that they aren't the ones
>who come on here talking trash, calling names, and basically acting like a
>child. If you want to carry the torch for the Gracies... if you want to
>defend their claims... why don't YOU go clean Boztepe's clock?
Acting like a child? Well, if you were brought up properly, you would know
when to mind your own business, but since you can't...
I'm not in a "nest", or have anything to do with poultry (unlike Boztepe).
I am a student of Jiu Jitsu, I take it for fun and self defense. I am not
a professional fighter or martial artist and have no need to fight anyone,
wince that is not how I make my living. The Gracies and Boztepe do,
however, make their living off of their fighting, so there is a reasonable
amount of expectation of their willingness to fight.
Turning your own stupid question against you, why don't you fight the
Gracies?
Michael Dash
ro...@sky.net (Robb) wrote:
>: Mike,
>:
>: It seems that you have been insulting people for well over the past
>: year on matters that do not concern you personally. Why not just let it
>: die? You're an adult, no? Move on with your life. Accomplish something.
>:
>: By the way, how long have you been with GJJ? Don't the Gracies claim
>: that within 6 mos. of GJJ training you should be a match for other systems'
>: black belts?
>:
>: There comes a time when children have to leave the nest. We know that
>: Royce, Ricksan, etc. are all great. We also know that they aren't the ones
>: who come on here talking trash, calling names, and basically acting like a
>: child. If you want to carry the torch for the Gracies... if you want to
>: defend their claims... why don't YOU go clean Boztepe's clock?
>:
>: Sincerely,
>: Matthew Roozee
>: mro...@math.uci.edu
>
>Im not Mike, and I dont speak for him... but...
>
>I can critisize that *UTTER SHIT* I saw from Bruce Seldon against Mike
>Tyson all I want. That does NOT mean I have to go out and fight Mike
>Tyson myself though.
>See the point? Think about it... he isnt speaking as a professional
>fighter, he's speaking as a fan.
>
>Robb
Exactly. The original post stupidly applies that the"right" to discuss or
criticize someone is reserved for those who are willing to fight. Whether
or not I talk about Boztepe has nothing to do with my willingness to fight
him or his ability to kick my ass or any such thing.
Doug Balding
can...@aol.com wrote:
> Sifu Emin's challenge was a counter challenge to the Royce's.
False! Are you trying to insult our intelligence? Even though
this thread is supposed to be about TWC vs. Boztepe, these
ridiculous fantasies can not be ignored.
Boztepe challenged the Gracies. Royce accepted the challenge.
Boztepe refused to fight Royce. What does that tell you? Spin
control does not change the facts.
> he wanted to fight the head of the Gracie family and not
> the little brother.
That was after "the little brother" accepted the challenge. How
convenient. If Royce had not accepted, the challenge probably
would have stood as originally stated. If Rorion had acceptedmye{
instead of Royce, perhaps Boztepe would have then challenged
Helio. After all, he wanted "to fight the head of the Gracie
family."
In another post, can...@aol.com wrote:
> 3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
Apparently, this privilege belongs only to WT. Boztepe
challenged the Gracies, they chose a place and date, and
he refused to fight.
> 4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has
> the right to send a fighter of his choice
I see. So, even after Boztepe altered his challenge
of the Gracies to a challenge of Rorion specifically,
Rorion has the "right" to send the fighter of his
choice; Royce, for example.
Boztepe challenged the Gracies. Royce accepted. Boztepe
refused to fight. Those are the facts. Draw your own
conclusions.
Sean Hartigan
Michael Peter (pet...@concentric.net) wrote:
:
: Quick clarification for everyone else: Reza Nasri, who is
: not a WT expert, and is only a student grade or two above
: me, used no WT in his bout in the UFC.
Just out of curiosity, what grade would this be? Would Nasri
be considered instructor rank? (I know nothing about the
ranking system in WT).
Just looking for a data point. WT sounds like beautiful stuff in theory,
but you have to admit, it seems to be proving difficult for NHB fighters
to put it into practise.
All in all, it seems people trained in less-structured arts perform
better -- freestyle wrestling, boxing, sambo/judo/jujitsu... the
"anything goes" arts where the practitioners are not heavily programmed to
respond in very specific ways. They're used to chaotic situations.
This mindset seems to be the most valuable asset in the Octagon.
Not to say that the more heavily structured arts couldn't become less so.
But this might mean giving up their elegant notions of having a system
which, in itself, contains all the answers.
"Every thought is also a prison; every Heaven is also a prison."
-- Emerson
Sorry for the rambling!
: Mike
: A-EWTO
-- Sean Hartigan
Desmond Chan
Sean Hartigan (hart...@gpu4.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: [snip]
: Just looking for a data point. WT sounds like beautiful stuff in theory,
: but you have to admit, it seems to be proving difficult for NHB fighters
: to put it into practise.
: All in all, it seems people trained in less-structured arts perform
: better -- freestyle wrestling, boxing, sambo/judo/jujitsu... the
: "anything goes" arts where the practitioners are not heavily programmed to
: respond in very specific ways. They're used to chaotic situations.
: This mindset seems to be the most valuable asset in the Octagon.
I think the difference is in the training.
Incidentally, what do you think about uechi-ryu? ;-) ;-)
Regards,
D Chan
Michael Dash
au...@lafn.org (Doug Balding) wrote:
>
>can...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Sifu Emin's challenge was a counter challenge to the Royce's.
>
>False! Are you trying to insult our intelligence? Even though
>this thread is supposed to be about TWC vs. Boztepe, these
>ridiculous fantasies can not be ignored.
You tell him!
>Boztepe challenged the Gracies. Royce accepted the challenge.
>Boztepe refused to fight Royce. What does that tell you? Spin
>control does not change the facts.
That Boztepe's afraid of fighting the Gracies.
>> he wanted to fight the head of the Gracie family and not
>> the little brother.
>
>That was after "the little brother" accepted the challenge. How
>convenient. If Royce had not accepted, the challenge probably
>would have stood as originally stated. If Rorion had accepted
>instead of Royce, perhaps Boztepe would have then challenged
>Helio. After all, he wanted "to fight the head of the Gracie
>family."
He he. Good point
>In another post, can...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> 3. Since TWC challenges, we chose the place and date.
>
>Apparently, this privilege belongs only to WT. Boztepe
>challenged the Gracies, they chose a place and date, and
>he refused to fight.
Not only that, but in Boztepe's challenge letter he made it clear that he
did not care if the Gracies chose the time or place, which makes his
cowardice all the more obvious.
>> 4. Since TWC challenges Sifu Emin, the latter has
>> the right to send a fighter of his choice
>
>I see. So, even after Boztepe altered his challenge
>of the Gracies to a challenge of Rorion specifically,
>Rorion has the "right" to send the fighter of his
>choice; Royce, for example.
Exactly! The closer the Gracies got to offering a fight that was tailor
made to fit Boztepe's challenge (Torrance Academy, Police Academy, and
special bout at the UFC), the more scared Boztepe got and the more he
backpedalled, using his lawyer of course.
>Boztepe challenged the Gracies. Royce accepted. Boztepe
>refused to fight. Those are the facts. Draw your own
>conclusions.
Boztepe's a wuss.....kepper of the mystical WT tampon! :)
Michael Peter
Lawrence Eng wrote:
>
> In article Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> writes:
>
> >Michael Dash wrote:
> >>
> >> Huh? If you think UFC is fake, take it up with Reza Nasri, the WT expert
> >> who got his ass whipped in record time.
> >>
>
> >not a WT expert, and is only a student grade or two above
> >his Greco-Roman background, and lost to the bigger, stronger,
> >and more aggressive opponent.
>
> I haven't seen the fight, but I guess I can buy your argument. A few
> questions, though:
>
> Why is it that WT is so easy to forget? Surely, since WT operates according
> to set principles of attack that should translate to all forms of
> combat (punching, kicking, elbow-strikes, grappling, etc.) how could Nasri
> forget all these principles so quickly? He should have been able to apply
> his WT principles of attack no matter what situation he was in. After all,
> isn't WT supposed to be a complete system?
Reza apparently chose not to use any WT. He is an Iranian champion
Greco-Roman wrestler, thus that is what he has the most faith in.
He hasn't really worked out WT for at least two years. Most of
what he teaches consists of grappling.
If you've done multiple martial arts, you can choose which one
to fight with, especially if it's a competition. So if I'm sparring
with friends, I can consciously decide to fight TKD, Judo, or WT.
Reza picked Greco-Roman, the art he's done the most and in which
he was a champion.
Mike
A-EWTO
Pete R.
In article <325599...@concentric.net>, pet...@concentric.net says...
I think you can choose somewhat if you're just sparring with people,
but in a bareknuckle fist fight I think you would use any technique
called for from those that you know. The most disappointing thing
Nasri did from a technical standpoint is he let his opponent mount
him, and he didn't have a trained defense for being mounted. He just
lay there and stuck out his arms, presumably to ward off blows. As
current theory would predict, this failed miserably, and he got clocked
and probably earned a nice concussion as a result. I know from prior
discussion of this topic with you that you advocated sending counter-
strikes from this position, which is a major strategic disagreement
between WT and BJJ. Nasri didn't throw any strikes but from his
position it looked like he was going to try an exchange of blows.
Sean Hartigan
Desmond Chan (dc...@is.dal.ca) wrote:
: : All in all, it seems people trained in less-structured arts perform
: : better -- freestyle wrestling, boxing, sambo/judo/jujitsu... the
: : "anything goes" arts where the practitioners are not heavily programmed to
: : respond in very specific ways. They're used to chaotic situations.
: : This mindset seems to be the most valuable asset in the Octagon.
:
: I think the difference is in the training.
I think you're right -- it's hard to differentiate between the pure
"essence" of an art and the way it happens to be taught in actual
dojos, though.
: Incidentally, what do you think about uechi-ryu? ;-) ;-)
Truth of it is, the only decent Uechi-ryu fighters I've personally
seen have been people who've cross-trained heavily in something
else. Usually kick-boxing or judo. Sad but true!
: D Chan
-- Sean Hartigan
Michael Peter
Well, that's the difference b/w you and me then - you think and
I know ;) I've had enough experience with both to back my
statements. Even in a challenge match, you are still aware that
you will walk away from it mostly intact, so you can afford to
choose.
[snip]
> I know from prior
> discussion of this topic with you that you advocated sending counter-
> strikes from this position, which is a major strategic disagreement
> between WT and BJJ. Nasri didn't throw any strikes but from his
> position it looked like he was going to try an exchange of blows.
Not in any way that followed WT principles. It looked like he was
trying to (unsuccessfully) ward off Brian's blows, and wasn't
setting up anything on his own - at least not from a my perspective,
and I know where to look. I was *extremely* disappointed that
Reza didn't do a single thing WT. He tried to outwrestle a larger
and stronger opponent, and got pounded.
Mike
A-EWTO
Lawrence Eng
I suppose so, but Nasri's fight makes me wonder about the intelligence of
consciously choosing to limit yourself to one "style" in a fight that is
supposed to be semi-no-holds-barred, whether that style be WT, TKD, Muay
Thai, BJJ, or whatever. Nasri, as you say, limited himself to Greco-Roman,
and he got pounded. I wonder if he would have got pounded if he limited
himself to WT. Truthully, maybe his best chances would have been if he had
simply expressed himself fully using everything he knew, forgetting the
artificial style distinctions.
-Lawrence
Michael Peter
That may not be possible across certain styles, especially if
principles or strategies are conflicting, like they do b/w
Greco-Roman wrestling and WT.
Mike
A-EWTO
Chris Lamb
Sean Hartigan wrote:
> All in all, it seems people trained in less-structured arts perform
> better -- freestyle wrestling, boxing, sambo/judo/jujitsu... the
> "anything goes" arts where the practitioners are not heavily programmed to
> respond in very specific ways. They're used to chaotic situations.
> This mindset seems to be the most valuable asset in the Octagon.
Sean, I don't think you could call Judo non-structured. Many
players have set combinations of movements leading into
a throw or a hold down that they use to set up their opponents.
I'd call that pretty structured.
Shannon Lee
In article <324FC8...@concentric.net> Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> writes:
>From: Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net>
>Subject: Challenges to Dai Sifu Emin Boztepe (was Re: Boztepe challenged by Traditional Wing Chun!)
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:16:02 -0500
>Marty wrote:
>3) Members of the TWC Organization need to remember that the fight
> between Dai Sifu Emin and William Cheung was between these two
> individuals and that if Mr. Cheung is interested in a rematch, Dai
> Sifu Emin will be happy to oblige him directly.
errr.....i wouldn't have called it a "fight" so much as.....a pathetic,
cowardly attack on someone 20 (?) years his senior!! very appropriate
behaviour for a so-called "sifu", if u ask me!!!
>Sincerely,
>Jeffrey Webb
>Austin Wing Tsun Academy
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>My only comment: I've posted Sifu Emin's seminar schedule on here
>repeatedly, but I guess mapping that to a calendar is difficult.
>Let me help:
> Oct 19-20 : New York City, NY
> Sifu Andrew Draheim (212) 439-4862
> Oct 23 : Mesa, AZ
> Sifu Keith Sonnenberg (602) 668-9220
> Oct 25-26 : Chicago, IL
> Si Hing Mike Adams (708) 368-2425
> Oct 27 : San Antonio,TX
> Si Hing William Parker (210) 822-0035
>Notice anything? Each seminar is just a few days apart, in
>widely dispered areas of the nation. After this run, Sifu Emin
>will jet over to Europe to teach a similar seminar schedule. He
>is extremely busy, to say the least, and the AEWTO is priority
>number one. If all you want to do is get a letter printed in
>IKF, fine. Then I can understand making the likelihood of
>a fight happen as difficult as possible. But I don't expect
>Sifu Emin to cancel a seminar, in fact I'd be ticked if he
>did. If you are serious, then *be* serious. Otherwise, save
>your breath, your keystrokes, and whatever tally points you
>seem to be keeping.
>Mike
>WT
Sean Hartigan
Chris Lamb (cl...@mrcabq.com) wrote:
:
: Sean, I don't think you could call Judo non-structured. Many
: players have set combinations of movements leading into
: a throw or a hold down that they use to set up their opponents.
: I'd call that pretty structured.
This is true. I was a little vague. Really, I was referring to
the "randori" style training in judo, as compared to the prearranged
sparring or point-style training some other systems use.
Boxers also have set combinations they use, but, like judo players,
they are more used to dealing with the chaos of an environment where
things happen fast, where techniques can either succeed or fail, where
unexpected opportunities can be seized or lost.
This "familiarity with chaos" is what I meant. Point-sparring is a step
in this direction... I guess actual street-fighting would be the ultimate
form of "chaos training." :)
-- Sean Hartigan
Michael Dash
Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Lawrence Eng wrote:
>>
>> In article Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> writes:
>>
>> >Michael Dash wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Huh? If you think UFC is fake, take it up with Reza Nasri, the WT expert
>> >> who got his ass whipped in record time.
>> >>
>>
>> >Quick clarification for everyone else: Reza Nasri, who is
>> >not a WT expert, and is only a student grade or two above
>> >me, used no WT in his bout in the UFC. He relied on
>> >his Greco-Roman background, and lost to the bigger, stronger,
>> >and more aggressive opponent.
>>
>> I haven't seen the fight, but I guess I can buy your argument. A few
>> questions, though:
>>
>> Why is it that WT is so easy to forget? Surely, since WT operates according
>> to set principles of attack that should translate to all forms of
>> combat (punching, kicking, elbow-strikes, grappling, etc.) how could Nasri
>> forget all these principles so quickly? He should have been able to apply
>> his WT principles of attack no matter what situation he was in. After all,
>> isn't WT supposed to be a complete system?
>
>Reza apparently chose not to use any WT. He is an Iranian champion
>Greco-Roman wrestler, thus that is what he has the most faith in.
>He hasn't really worked out WT for at least two years. Most of
>what he teaches consists of grappling.
Yes, but when you're being hammered, it's natural instinct to do whatever
you can to defend yourself. The only time one can choose among various
techniques is when they're in control. It's a totally different story when
you're getting you're ass whipped. At this point the "self preservation"
instinct takes over. If there was any way Nazri could have figured out how
to use his WT, he would have instead of tapping out.
>If you've done multiple martial arts, you can choose which one
>to fight with, especially if it's a competition. So if I'm sparring
>with friends, I can consciously decide to fight TKD, Judo, or WT.
>Reza picked Greco-Roman, the art he's done the most and in which
>he was a champion.
You can only choose when you're so much better than the other person.
When you're getting pummeled your instincts start to kick in. If any one
of the styles you've trained in has a method to get out of the asswhippin,
and you remember it, the self defense instinct in your brain will make you
use it.
Just like when someone getting hit in the face, it's instinct to for just
about everyone to put their hands up in front of their face. Most people
simply can't "choose" to stand there and get punched in the face.
Similarly, Nazri wouldn't chose to loose if there was any way for him to
figure out how to get WT to work for him.
Now, if you say that he isn't any good at WT, I can't argue with you
because I don't know, but to say he consciously chose an asswhippin over
using his WT is ridiculous.
Michael Dash
Pet...@hotmail.com (Pete R.) wrote:
>I think you can choose somewhat if you're just sparring with people,
>but in a bareknuckle fist fight I think you would use any technique
>called for from those that you know.
Exactly! Even the most skilled boxer will remember to clinch if he's
taking too much of a beating. The ability to choose diminishes with the
increased skill level of your opponent.
>The most disappointing thing
>Nasri did from a technical standpoint is he let his opponent mount
>him, and he didn't have a trained defense for being mounted. He just
>lay there and stuck out his arms, presumably to ward off blows. As
>current theory would predict, this failed miserably, and he got clocked
>and probably earned a nice concussion as a result. I know from prior
>discussion of this topic with you that you advocated sending counter-
>strikes from this position, which is a major strategic disagreement
>between WT and BJJ. Nasri didn't throw any strikes but from his
>position it looked like he was going to try an exchange of blows.
Regardless of all the pissing and moaning the WT guys will make us endure,
they can't take back the fact that Nazri's performance int eh UFC is a WT
data point. Here's a WT stylist who "entered a competition", which they
supposedly never do, and promptly received a world class asswhippin, which
supposedly never happens to them. As a minimum, Nazri is more advanced
than any of the WT people on this newsgroup and they all claim that they
have enough WT that they can hospitalize anyone who attacks them. Nazri's
opponent defeated him with raw strength and anger and almost no technique
whatsoever. WT, via Nazri, has suffered an unquestionable and humiliating
defeat. Before, there was absolutely no proof whatsoever to support the
claims that there style is the best, now Nazri's fight serves as evidence
to the contrary.
Pete R.
In article <325930e1...@160.45.4.4>, das...@earthlink.net says...
>
>Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Yes, but when you're being hammered, it's natural instinct to do whatever
>you can to defend yourself. The only time one can choose among various
>techniques is when they're in control. It's a totally different story when
>you're getting you're ass whipped. At this point the "self preservation"
>instinct takes over. If there was any way Nazri could have figured out how
>to use his WT, he would have instead of tapping out.
Exactly. First off, according to you (Mike Peter) Nasri outranks you.
You've said that WT trains against other arts for the first year, and
after that you only train against WT attacks because you have the other
bases covered. The only conclusion is that Nasri can't be very good at
WT, but then what does his WT rank reflect?
Michael Peter
Pete R. wrote:
>
> In article <325930e1...@160.45.4.4>, das...@earthlink.net says...
> >
> >Michael Peter <pet...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >Yes, but when you're being hammered, it's natural instinct to do whatever
> >you can to defend yourself. The only time one can choose among various
> >techniques is when they're in control. It's a totally different story when
> >you're getting you're ass whipped. At this point the "self preservation"
> >instinct takes over. If there was any way Nazri could have figured out how
> >to use his WT, he would have instead of tapping out.
>
> Exactly.
Have you ever fought in competition? It's not a totally different
story. When you are in a particular mindset, that's how you fight.
It's why I can compete in TKD and Judo. When I got my face gouged
at my 2nd tournament, did haul off and punch or kick the guy? No,
b/c I had Judo on the brain. A martial art encourages a particular
mindset. That's how you will fight, according to the principles
and strategies of the system. Reza was set to fight Greco-Roman,
so all his strategies and counters would be from that system.
You guys need to get some fighting experience before you start
posting your opinions of what fighting is like as reality. You
expose a singular lack of knowledge of the mechanics of a fight
from a fighter's perspective. Especially concerning competition
fighting - like the UFC.
> First off, according to you (Mike Peter) Nasri outranks you.
> You've said that WT trains against other arts for the first year, and
> after that you only train against WT attacks because you have the other
> bases covered. The only conclusion is that Nasri can't be very good at
> WT, but then what does his WT rank reflect?
Why conclude that? He didn't use any WT. He wasn't authorized to
represent WT. He has had extensive training in Greco-Roman
wrestling, and limited experience in WT (I know more than he
does). Which do *you* think he would rely on? I would have loved
it if he had done anything WT, but he didn't. Trust me, I should
know.
Reza hadn't trained sufficently to think that WT was enough. He
is of the opinion that you need grappling, especially to fight
grappling. He *grappled* and lost to a larger, stronger opponent
who finished him with *strikes*. Brian looked more like WT than
Reza.
Mike
A-EWTO