Aikido .vs. Muay Thai
shahriar
i was just wondering which style to learn and i came across 2 style
which i was very interested in. these were Aikido and Muay Thai. i
also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
thai??? can any1 give me an idea of which 2 choose??
PSD
is right for me may not be right for you. Pick the one you feel best
with.
Brian
PSD
http://www.practicalselfdefense.com/
Jamie Ruddy
Brians right the path is yours to choose.
> i was just wondering which style to learn and i came across 2 style
> which i was very interested in. these were Aikido and Muay Thai. i
> also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
> thai???
an expert marksman?
Eric Neale
Outside of a low budget "B" rate movie in Hong Kong I just can't
imagine any reason why two martial artists would need to fight. Even
if they did fight the style would not be important. What you are
asking is kind of like asking "Is it better to throw the football or
run the football?" When you need to drive a nail into wood you can
use just about any type of hammer and still get the job done.
Fighting style just doesn't mater. Motivation, inititive, surprise,
experience, insight, training, stratagy, natural ability, tenasity,
presence of mind, and luck - those are the things that win fights.
If you want to learn a style then pick one that fits you personality,
and find a good teacher. The skill of your teacher, and your ability
to be a good student will decide how well you do.
I wish you success,
-Eric
Gichoke
>> Hi all
>> i was just wondering which style to learn and i came across 2 style
>> which i was very interested in. these were Aikido and Muay Thai.
I can understand that.There are so many parellels there.
One is an art, one is a sport.
One has a philosophy(mauybe IS a philosohpy)
One isnt'.
One is highly competetive, one aint.
One works, one doesnt.
One is very violent, one preaches nonviolence.
One is all about sparring, one has no sparring or contest at all.
One is grappling, one striking.
>i. i
>> also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
>> thai???
The Muay Thai guy, by tap-out from headlock... at 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
Now you know.
Gi
myname
I suggest you study Aikido.
Because if you can destroy a Muay Thai heavy weight world champion
with pure Aikido techniques then I am sure you are the best martial
artist ever. Because you truly understand all the knowledge of human
body mechanics. The technique doesn't matter, what matters is your
understanding of the fundamental laws.
Lynn Seiser PhD MFCC
Between the two, the best fighter who wants it more would win. IMHO, its usual
the person, not the style, that make the difference. Neither would have much of
an idea what the other person i doing since their techniques are so different.
Lynn
Tenshinkai Aikido/Lucaylucay Kali JKD
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our
training." Train well. KWATZ!
Lynn Seiser, PhD MFCC (Sei...@AOL.com)
http://members.aol.com/SeiserL/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/AikiSolutions/AikiSolutions.html
Eric Neale
> >: calvin...@ocsnet.net (Eric Neale)
>
> >shahr...@hotmail.com
>
> >> Hi all
> >> i was just wondering which style to learn and i came across 2 style
> >> which i was very interested in. these were Aikido and Muay Thai.
>
> I can understand that.There are so many parellels there.
> One is an art, one is a sport.
> One has a philosophy(mauybe IS a philosohpy)
> One isnt'.
> One is highly competetive, one aint.
> One works, one doesnt.
Don't be so hard on Muay Thai. I am sure it works too. ;-p
> One is very violent, one preaches nonviolence.
> One is all about sparring, one has no sparring or contest at all.
> One is grappling, one striking.
>
> >i. i
> >> also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
> >> thai???
>
> The Muay Thai guy, by tap-out from headlock... at 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
Now I know you are joking. Who would "tap-out" of a fight? They must
have not had much to fight over, and if they had nothing to fight over
why would they fight? Style alone is not enough information to decide
who would prevail, but the fight would go on untill someone realized
he was outmatched and tried to run, or until one of them was too
injured to continue. (K.O., broken limbs, strangulation, coma, death,
etc.) Of course if there is a fight at all then both of them have
already lost. No one wins a fight - you can only survive fights.
-Eric
Nigel
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020209015938...@mb-cv.aol.com...
> >i. i
> >> also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
> >> thai???
>
> The Muay Thai guy, by tap-out from headlock... at 2 minutes and 15
seconds.
>
> Now you know.
> Gi
Excuse my ignorance, but does Muay Thai teach headlocks, I thought it was
purely a striking art. Are you assuming it would go the same way as the
early UFC's & a brawl rolling around on the floor would occur, with total
loss of technique?
Nigel
PS: Well done on your win & train hard for your next match (no luck
necessary!!)
Gichoke
>
>> The Muay Thai guy, by tap-out from headlock... at 2 minutes and 15
>seconds.
>>
>> Now you know.
>> Gi
>
>Excuse my ignorance, but does Muay Thai teach headlocks,
Not exactly.
>, I thought it was
>purely a striking art.
Well there IS significant standing tie up training.
>Are you assuming it would go the same way as the
>early UFC's & a brawl rolling around on the floor would occur, with total
>loss of technique?
Yes.Neither mt or aikido guys are skilled in staying up.
Gi
Gi
Toni Orlicki
Aikidoka including Sensei Jack Wada, Sensei Robert Nadeau, Sensei Brad
Bergeron from Seidokan(i think) and they all say the smae thing.
Self Defense application of Aikido is just not a reality under 4 dan. I
mean, it depends upon the 2 combatants, but usually the Aikido guys gets his
butt handed to him.
Why? Because hard style martial arts teach very quickly how to do those
basic things that humans seem to do naturally and refines from there. Things
like punching, kicking, knees, elbows, even biting as in kino mutai(Paul
Vunak JKD)
Generally, hard stylists are in better muscular and cardio vascular shape.
Most aikidoka up to 4 dan can't even make a basic fist. It's true, I've
looked long and hard at Aikido. Been to over 30 dojos across the US.
Finally, until 4dan people don't really "own" Aikido within themselves. Up
until that point uke and nage are still working their way up to "realistic
combat" and how it applies in Aikido or how Aikido can be applied to life in
fighting.
I've seen many yudansha uke fall for no reason other than what I call the
Social Contract of Aikido. Uke should NOT fall unless truly nage has
executed the technique. yet since Aikido is this "cooperative" martial art
people fall for no reason.
Aikido should be practiced with a "hageshi" attitude. Rough and tumble, yet
with finesse. Force, but not force against force. "Ruggedness" is a good
word. Remember the stories of O'Sensei's "Hell Dojo"....THAT is Aikido. What
most aikidoka do is...well... without being deprecative...something else.
It seems that until 4 dan people don't realize that in the streets there is
no cooperation.
Anyway, Aikido grew out of many years of hard external training in karate.
It could have been muay thai or kyokushin, or any hard style art....but
like the river that finally cracks open a large rock and begins to erode it
what remains is something smooth round and completely refined.
I always tell everyone based on footage of O'Sensei andf pictures of him
that its not being thrown by him that would have scared me. I think that
being thrown represents a kind of kindness. I'd much rather his force move
me than go in me. In other words, I'd have been more afraid of him if he hit
me. Even in his eighties that fist of his could have done some monumental
damage.
So, if one wnats to learn to defend himself quickly, muay thai is the
answer. If one wants to be fed for a lifetime, try Aikido...just make sure
that you(whomever) does it for "real" or "hageshi".
Tiger of Serrada.
"Lynn Seiser PhD MFCC" <sei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020209110126...@mb-fn.aol.com...
Paul Maybury
keeping the feet down. But, Gi knows best!
Paul
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020209193153...@mb-df.aol.com...
<snip>
Gichoke
>
>> Neither mt or aikido guys are skilled in staying up.
>
><g> I thought that Aikido was all about balance (keeping and taking), and
>keeping the feet down. But, Gi knows best!
>
You better believe it.
Gi
Bill
Don't forget to sell Gi that beachfront in Arizona <G>
Like a lamb to the BBQ.
Bill
Victor 'the Victim' Velez
> Actually I see it on a continuum. I've talked with many, many high ranking
> Aikidoka including Sensei Jack Wada, Sensei Robert Nadeau, Sensei Brad
> Bergeron from Seidokan(i think) and they all say the smae thing.
Wow!
> Self Defense application of Aikido is just not a reality under 4 dan.
Really?
> Most aikidoka up to 4 dan can't even make a basic fist.
Bunch of frickin' retards, it sounds like!
> It's true, I've looked long and hard at Aikido.
> Been to over 30 dojos across the US.
And they all sucked too, right? Except for the 4th Dans and above, I
bet those were OK. Well, at least adequate.
> Anyway, Aikido grew out of many years of hard external training in karate.
*SNORT* *COUGH* *SNORFLE*
Sorry, I was drinking a soda when I read that last line...
Man, you are good. Imagine that, karate. All of the idiot aikidoka
clowns insist it grew out of juijitsu. Thanks for setting the record
straight. YOU really know your shit about aikido.
> It could have been muay thai or kyokushin, or any hard style art....but
> like the river that finally cracks open a large rock and begins to erode it
> what remains is something smooth round and completely refined.
Or maybe, just maybe it could even have been mostly
daitoryu-(aiki)jujitsu, as all the real aikidoka insist?
Victor of the Victims
Nigel
"Victor 'the Victim' Velez" <victort...@start.com.au> wrote in message
news:2498697b.02021...@posting.google.com...
> "Toni Orlicki" <torl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<nFl98.20948$fK1.140332@rwcrnsc54>...
> > Actually I see it on a continuum. I've talked with many, many high
ranking
> > Aikidoka including Sensei Jack Wada, Sensei Robert Nadeau, Sensei Brad
> > Bergeron from Seidokan(i think) and they all say the smae thing.
>
> Wow!
>
> > Self Defense application of Aikido is just not a reality under 4 dan.
>
> Really?
Then what the heck am I doing?
>
> > Most aikidoka up to 4 dan can't even make a basic fist.
>
> Bunch of frickin' retards, it sounds like!
I agree (without the harsh tone!!) Mate, you mustn't be doing Aikido. Your
statement just keeps reiterateing the fact that there are such poor styles
of Aikido out there (which I don't call Aikido at all).
>
> > It's true, I've looked long and hard at Aikido.
> > Been to over 30 dojos across the US.
>
> And they all sucked too, right? Except for the 4th Dans and above, I
> bet those were OK. Well, at least adequate.
>
> > Anyway, Aikido grew out of many years of hard external training in
karate.
>
> *SNORT* *COUGH* *SNORFLE*
>
> Sorry, I was drinking a soda when I read that last line...
> Man, you are good. Imagine that, karate. All of the idiot aikidoka
> clowns insist it grew out of juijitsu. Thanks for setting the record
> straight. YOU really know your shit about aikido.
What the????
>
> > It could have been muay thai or kyokushin, or any hard style art....but
> > like the river that finally cracks open a large rock and begins to erode
it
> > what remains is something smooth round and completely refined.
>
> Or maybe, just maybe it could even have been mostly
> daitoryu-(aiki)jujitsu, as all the real aikidoka insist?
>
>
> Victor of the Victims
Sorry, Mr Velez but I don't where this chap is coming from. Excuse me Tony,
but have I misunderstood your version of Aikido's roots?
Kirk Lawson
>
> Actually I see it on a continuum. I've talked with many, many high ranking
> Aikidoka including Sensei Jack Wada, Sensei Robert Nadeau, Sensei Brad
> Bergeron from Seidokan(i think) and they all say the smae thing.
>
> Self Defense application of Aikido is just not a reality under 4 dan. I
> mean, it depends upon the 2 combatants, but usually the Aikido guys gets his
> butt handed to him.
Funny. There are lots of people who claim to have used it quite
effectively in SD yet aren't 4th Dan. Maybe you just haven't seen the
writeups.
> Most aikidoka up to 4 dan can't even make a basic fist.
You're kidding. A great number of aikidoka I know (including myself)
come from a different discipline and/or cross train.
> It's true, I've looked long and hard at Aikido.
That's hard to believe considering you believe most can't even make a
"basic fist."
> Finally, until 4dan people don't really "own" Aikido within themselves. Up
> until that point uke and nage are still working their way up to "realistic
> combat" and how it applies in Aikido or how Aikido can be applied to life in
> fighting.
That's way different for different styles and dojos.
> I've seen many yudansha uke fall for no reason other than what I call the
> Social Contract of Aikido. Uke should NOT fall unless truly nage has
> executed the technique. yet since Aikido is this "cooperative" martial art
> people fall for no reason.
And I've seen new white belts come in from other styles that challenge
the Aikidoka to make the technique good because they *won't* just
"cooperate." Working with a guy last week with Dan rankings in Bo-Do,
Kenjitsu, and Okinawan Karate and I went to do a throw under the chin.
He felt it coming about half way to the chin and started to resist. I
never made it to the chin and ended up throwing on his *throat*. I was
worried for a bit but he's a trooper and bounced back up. It was my
fault for not feeling his resistance soon enough and going with it, but
I made the throw anyway. "On the street" it would have been bad for
him. For that reason alone, I like working with "white belts."
> It seems that until 4 dan people don't realize that in the streets there is
> no cooperation.
Really? Come now, it's a common convention for muggers to shake hands
with their victims and for Home Invaders to complement the decor.
> Anyway, Aikido grew out of many years of hard external training in karate.
Daito Ryu, Kenjitsu, Jo-Jitsu, etc. isn't exactly "Karate." Methinks
you should double check your history. No offense.
Peace favor your sword (FSG)
--
As of 8:45 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, I live in a nation united.
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of Rec.Martial-Arts
Gichoke
>
>>>> Neither mt or aikido guys are skilled in staying up.
>>
>>>
>>><g> I thought that Aikido was all about balance (keeping and taking), and
>>>keeping the feet down. But, Gi knows best!
>>>
>>
>>You better believe it.
>>
>>Gi
>
>Don't forget to sell Gi that beachfront in Arizona <G>
>
>Like a lamb to the BBQ.
You won't laugh when a runaway Nuke triggers the San Andreas faultline and the
west coast baggage drops into the pacific.
I'll be sittin pretty in Otisburg, BoyEE.
Gi
Bill
That would cure a few things that need some fixin!
Bill
Eric Neale
> Toni Orlicki wrote:
> >
> > Actually I see it on a continuum. I've talked with many, many high ranking
> > Aikidoka including Sensei Jack Wada, Sensei Robert Nadeau, Sensei Brad
> > Bergeron from Seidokan(i think) and they all say the smae thing.
> >
> > Self Defense application of Aikido is just not a reality under 4 dan. I
> > mean, it depends upon the 2 combatants, but usually the Aikido guys gets his
> > butt handed to him.
>
> Funny. There are lots of people who claim to have used it quite
> effectively in SD yet aren't 4th Dan. Maybe you just haven't seen the
> writeups.
Now just hold on there,
Didn't Gichike *prove* that there is no real fighting and no self
defence outside of sport NHB MMA events? That would mean that there
were no fights before UFC I, and all those stories from before 1990
were fiction. Now I am confused! The universe no longer makes any
sence!!!! 8-O
<snip>
> And I've seen new white belts come in from other styles that challenge
> the Aikidoka to make the technique good because they *won't* just
> "cooperate." Working with a guy last week with Dan rankings in Bo-Do,
> Kenjitsu, and Okinawan Karate and I went to do a throw under the chin.
> He felt it coming about half way to the chin and started to resist. I
> never made it to the chin and ended up throwing on his *throat*. I was
> worried for a bit but he's a trooper and bounced back up. It was my
> fault for not feeling his resistance soon enough and going with it, but
> I made the throw anyway. "On the street" it would have been bad for
> him. For that reason alone, I like working with "white belts."
Seriously, do you think that a kokunage/iriminage could break
someone's neck if they resisted it enough? I was once working with
someone who knew jujutsu and was taking great falls. Without even
thinking I put him through that one iriminage that is applyed to the
head/jaw and he went the wrong way at full force. By the time I
realize my error I was already commited to the throw at full speed.
It scared me breathless when he fell. My blood went cold - but he
jumped back up and continued attacking.
> > It seems that until 4 dan people don't realize that in the streets there is
> > no cooperation.
>
> Really? Come now, it's a common convention for muggers to shake hands
> with their victims and for Home Invaders to complement the decor.
There can be harmony - even on the street. "Bad guys" often will
think twice if they don't like a situation, the body language, or even
just a "strange vibe". It is possible to defeat some foes with a
glance. If nothing else, Aikido is valuable for that reason alone.
Self defence is *not* having the power to defeat every threat every
time. That is not possible. Self defence is just surviving the real
threats you actualy face.
-Eric
Mike
world go back in time. Sheesh. Where's my damn kryptonite!
Lex
S McElvanney
stable...JJ.
Are we really that different except BJJ is geared towards competitions and
Aikido is more real life (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
country full of martial artists).
Gichoke
>
>But Gi...as much as you'd hate to admit it Aikido and BJJ come from the same
>stable...JJ.
Both "Glitter" and "Braveheart" came from Hollywood.
>
>Are we really that different except BJJ is geared towards competitions and
>Aikido is more real life
BJJ was used relentlessly on the streets of Rio for decades.
Aikido is what newage homo's do when they need to express their artsy-fartsy
creative side.
> (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
>country full of martial artists)
And almost no crime.
Gi
MK Randall
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Pierre Honeyman
> (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> country full of martial artists).
Haaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Sean, you're funny, but not because you're trying.
Pierre
S McElvanney
Exactly. Can never have no crime i'm afraid....but then again your not
living in the real world...its WWF all the way for you with all its nice
rules.
I work in a hospital and our staff need to be trained how to defend
themselves against aggressive patients, people just wondering into A+E (both
armed and unarmed - literally in some cases) and we regulary have police
trainers come into the hospital and run courses on what to do in dangerous
situations. Whilst its not exactly Aikido I can see quite close
similarities in what he's showing. Believe me, its nothing like you sports
boys. He doesn't go on about mounts, sprawling and sports stuff like that.
He is only interested in the real world.
S McElvanney
"Pierre Honeyman" <phon...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.02021...@posting.google.com...
Who's Sean you French twat???
Gichoke
>
>> >
>> >But Gi...as much as you'd hate to admit it Aikido and BJJ come from the
>same
>> >stable...JJ.
>>
>> Both "Glitter" and "Braveheart" came from Hollywood.
>>
>> >
>> >Are we really that different except BJJ is geared towards competitions
>and
>> >Aikido is more real life
>>
>> BJJ was used relentlessly on the streets of Rio for decades.
>> Aikido is what newage homo's do when they need to express their
>artsy-fartsy
>> creative side.
>>
>>
>> > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
>> >country full of martial artists)
>>
>> And almost no crime.
>>
>> Gi
>
>Exactly. Can never have no crime i'm afraid....but then again your not
>living in the real world...its WWF all the way for you with all its nice
>rules.
>
>I work in a hospital
None of us care about any aspect of your life,Simon.
>and our staff need to be trained how to defend
>themselves against aggressive patients,
OK... So I beat up MMA fighters, and you beat up retards.
Is that your point?
>(both
>armed and unarmed - literally in some cases)
Armless retards.
Good for you!
>and we regulary have police
>trainers come into the hospital and run courses on what to do in dangerous
>situations. Whilst its not exactly Aikido I can see quite close
>similarities in what he's showing.
Which is what? Where to get the best donuts in Scotland?
>Believe me, its nothing like you sports
>boys.
I believe you.
Sports require athletes... you couldnt handle my sport.
And you know it.
>He doesn't go on about mounts, sprawling and sports stuff like that.
>He is only interested in the real world.
Is that why you lover him?
And don't deny it... your posts drips of love.
Gi
GODSTAR
> >"S McElvanney"
> > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> >country full of martial artists)
> And almost no crime.
Thats exactly how effective it is.
> Gi
Eric Neale
> >"S McElvanney"
> >Are we really that different except BJJ is geared towards competitions and
> >Aikido is more real life
>
> BJJ was used relentlessly on the streets of Rio for decades.
Wrong,
I hate to break this to you but in reality an attack might not be
schelduled, take place where there is no soft mat, involve two, three
or more attackers, and they might have knives, clubs, pistols or all
of the above.
Reality cheak: Kyudo beats JJJ, BJJ, MMA, and just about any other
kind of art you want to name - every single time.
Kenjutsu beats most of the unarmed arts every single time.
Does that mean we sould give up all other arts and study Kyudo? Or
maybe we should quit training and just buy guns? Then we would have
to put up with stuff like "M-16s are worthless - everyone should use
an AK-74 instead because it's the only weapon that works."
Good students from a good school of *any style* will beat bad students
from a bad school in any other style. No mater what those two styles
are.
It's kind of pointless to say Aikido is worthless because they
couldn't win in a sporting event. It isn't designed to win at sports.
It is designed to survive life.
Hey maybe Rainbow Ryu is the most deadly art in human history, but
that doesn't do us any good if there is no Rainbow Ryu school in our
area.
The smart students know that every art focuses on just a few areas
making them unbalanced, so they cross train to become balanced.
No mater what style you study it won't do you any good whan someone is
shooting you, so why don't we focus on reality instead of some
contrived contest that would never happen?
> > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> >country full of martial artists)
>
> And almost no crime.
So you are saying that even if the ones who commit the crimes are
martial artists, it wouldn't mater because there are less crimes
commited? Be careful not to prove your antithesis.
-Eric
Don Geddis
> I work in a hospital and our staff need to be trained how to defend
> themselves against aggressive patients, people just wondering into A+E (both
> armed and unarmed - literally in some cases) and we regulary have police
> trainers come into the hospital and run courses on what to do in dangerous
> situations. Whilst its not exactly Aikido I can see quite close
> similarities in what he's showing. Believe me, its nothing like you sports
> boys. He doesn't go on about mounts, sprawling and sports stuff like that.
All that sounds fine, and I doubt anyone would object, or say that you're
wasting your time.
> He is only interested in the real world.
So close, and then you blow it at the end. (Useless trivia: I once was in
a seminar with Rickson Gracie. He was watching students spar. One did a
takedown, passed guard, mounted, got back mount, and then crossed his ankles
in the front. Rickson yelled to uncross his ankles, because of the danger of
anklelocks from the guy who was mounted. When it was over, to the assembled
class he said, "in Brazil we call that 'swim, swim, swim...die on the beach!'")
You seem not to realize that it is _your_ situation which is special, and
has little to do with "the real world".
You're in an environment where you need to subdue the patient without hurting
him. All your training will be devoted to control and compliance techniques.
Also, you have the expectation of overwhelming numbers. (It generally will be
a single patient against the combined security might of the whole hospital.)
Gichoke, other MMA fighters, and "real world" combatants need to deal with
_much_ more violent scenarios. Even in a ring, they compete against
well-trained and in-shape opponents, who are much more difficult to defeat
than your unruly patients. They also aren't restricted to control techniques;
they are free to choose from much more effective martial technique.
For example, you'd probably be fired for subduing a patient with a strong
right cross to their nose, breaking the nose and knocking them out, despite
the fact that it's a very useful and effective combat move.
Aikido is inferior to MMA (or BJJ) in almost every measurable way of
"combat effectiveness". People are drawn to Aikido for other reasons.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org
Kirk Lawson
> Then we would have
> to put up with stuff like "M-16s are worthless - everyone should use
> an AK-74 instead because it's the only weapon that works."
It'd be just like rec.guns; where the troll bait is "9mm vs. .45" and
the like. :-)
Aleksey S.
My 14-year-old sister decided to put her fingers into my face in a
sudden outburst of violence, and before I knew it, I tilted my head
right outside her grasp (her fingers never reached me), and then doing
a bunch of mini yokomen block and transitions which ended up in her
literally giving me a sankyo.
I passed on the sankyo hoping that she would calm down, but she
didn't, so I ended up carefully putting her into an ikkyo.
However if I ever try to "force" a technique on her, i.e. be the
attacker, I can never pull it off.
Despite her age, she's very centered, she has a sort of constant
"unliftable body" going on, and she uses Aiki principles
subconsciously when avoiding my attempts to get a hold of her.
Amazing, how Aikido works only when someone is trying to get to YOU,
but doesn't when you are trying to get to someone else.
Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message news:<3C67D248...@heapy.com>...
Gichoke
>
>> BJJ was used relentlessly on the streets of Rio for decades.
>> Aikido is <snip of Gi's colorful description>
>
>Wrong,
>I hate to break this to you but in reality an attack might not be
>schelduled, take place where there is no soft mat, involve two, three
>or more attackers, and they might have knives, clubs, pistols or all
>of the above.
Yeah, I know.
Aloot better than most of you.
You gonna use aikido against armed gangs?
Yet in a ring we all know I'd rip up an aikIdoist.
BUT YOU THINK THEYLL KICK ASS IN THE STREET?
So you are now saying that beating ME is tougher than beating an armed gang?
And as for matts,,,, you fight a grappler, youll wish you were fighting on win.
>
>Reality cheak: Kyudo beats JJJ, BJJ, MMA, and just about any other
>kind of art you want to name - every single time.
Yeah and anthrax beats that.
>enjutsu beats most of the unarmed arts every single time.
>
>Does that mean we sould give up all other arts and study Kyudo?
No.Cause it requires a weapon and is therefoe 100% irrelevant.
> Or
>maybe we should quit training and just buy guns?
If your goal is selddefense, then HELL YES!
>
>Good students from a good school of *any style* will beat bad students
>from a bad school in any other style.
I got a few bad students that would be willing to test this against some "good"
aikido guys.
>. No mater what those two styles
>are.
Styles dont mean much, but training does.
My school spars wrestling, bjj, and thaiboxing, and combines them all in vale
tudo sparring.
So this means guys doing kata and self defense sequnces will get mauled by my
guys.
>
>It's kind of pointless to say Aikido is worthless because they
>couldn't win in a sporting event.
never said it.I will though say it doesnt work in fights.
>
>No mater what style you study it won't do you any good whan someone is
>shooting you, so why don't we focus on reality instead of some
>contrived contest that would never happen?
Because no matter what style you do some 5 year old can shoot you.
So focusing on "reality" is kinda pointless.
And I dont get beat up in"reality" i got nothing to fear.
Gi
Eric Neale
<snip>
> Aikido is inferior to MMA (or BJJ) in almost every measurable way of
> "combat effectiveness".
Unless someone tries to hit you with a stick, sword, club, knife,
shovel, pole, etc. Surviving such an atack would be combat effective.
Keeping the weapon afterwords is priceless. ;-)
Forget Aikidoka, lets compare how a MMA student would fair against a
student of kenjutsu!!!!!!!! Can you say slice-o-matic?
When a mugger comes at you with a knife, there won't be any ref. to
protect you. Aikidoka accept this, embrase it and make it part of
their lives. If the battle happens in his or her home, the Aikidoka
can always count on their friend Jo. A word of advice: Never try to
take a stick away from an Aikidoka. But hey, don't take my word for
it. Just believe whatever you want to believe.
-Eric
Gichoke
>
>Forget Aikidoka, lets compare how a MMA student would fair against a
>student of kenjutsu!!!!!!!! Can you say slice-o-matic?
I disagree.
Being a student of kenjutsu does NOT give one the ability to magically make a
katana appear.
Gi
S McElvanney
> >"S McElvanney"
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >But Gi...as much as you'd hate to admit it Aikido and BJJ come from
the
> >same
> >> >stable...JJ.
> >>
> >> Both "Glitter" and "Braveheart" came from Hollywood.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Are we really that different except BJJ is geared towards competitions
> >and
> >> >Aikido is more real life
> >>
> >> BJJ was used relentlessly on the streets of Rio for decades.
> >> Aikido is what newage homo's do when they need to express their
> >artsy-fartsy
> >> creative side.
> >>
> >>
> >> > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> >> >country full of martial artists)
> >>
> >> And almost no crime.
> >>
> >> Gi
> >
> >Exactly. Can never have no crime i'm afraid....but then again your not
> >living in the real world...its WWF all the way for you with all its nice
> >rules.
> >
> >I work in a hospital
>
> None of us care about any aspect of your life,Simon.
Did I fucking say you did Gi??? Did I???
Fuckwit.
At least I have a life.
Got a girlfriend Gi??? Have you??? Have you???
You fucking sad bastard...no friends...no girlfriend, why don't you just
admit your lifes shit and throw yourself in front of the next bus?
>
> >and our staff need to be trained how to defend
> >themselves against aggressive patients,
>
> OK... So I beat up MMA fighters, and you beat up retards.
> Is that your point?
You don't beat anyone up with those sad little forearms.
Anyone who is stronger than a small girl would knock the fuck out of you and
you know it. That why your scared to fight someone on the street (not that
you go out much).
>
> >(both
> >armed and unarmed - literally in some cases)
>
> Armless retards.
> Good for you!
>
> >and we regulary have police
> >trainers come into the hospital and run courses on what to do in
dangerous
> >situations. Whilst its not exactly Aikido I can see quite close
> >similarities in what he's showing.
>
> Which is what? Where to get the best donuts in Scotland?
Scotland??? What the fuck you on about Scotland???
>
> >Believe me, its nothing like you sports
> >boys.
>
> I believe you.
> Sports require athletes... you couldnt handle my sport.
> And you know it.
>
> >He doesn't go on about mounts, sprawling and sports stuff like that.
> >He is only interested in the real world.
>
> Is that why you lover him?
Lover him??? Please use English.
> And don't deny it... your posts drips of love.
>
> Gi
In your mind eh.
S McElvanney
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Not once was it mentioned not hurting the patient....that is going to be
very hard and almost impossible to do. So long as your force isn't
excessive (like killing them), its ok to do.
Security are not always around and help is not always at hand. Not always a
single patient. Families often come in and cause trouble.
>
> Gichoke, other MMA fighters, and "real world" combatants need to deal with
> _much_ more violent scenarios. Even in a ring, they compete against
> well-trained and in-shape opponents, who are much more difficult to defeat
> than your unruly patients.
True...they are atheletes but patients don't have any rules over their
heads.
They also aren't restricted to control techniques;
As said before...this is bollocks.
> they are free to choose from much more effective martial technique.
Except for all the rules.
> For example, you'd probably be fired for subduing a patient with a strong
> right cross to their nose, breaking the nose and knocking them out,
despite
> the fact that it's a very useful and effective combat move.
Not true...so long as its not excessive force which that would not be.
>
> Aikido is inferior to MMA (or BJJ) in almost every measurable way of
> "combat effectiveness". People are drawn to Aikido for other reasons.
Wrong.
>
> -- Don
>
____________________________________________________________________________
Gichoke
> >I work in a hospital
>>
>> None of us care about any aspect of your life,Simon.
>
>
>
>Did I fucking say you did Gi??? Did I???
>Fuckwit.
No you did not.
But you wasted space and everyones time.
You posted something about YOU that no one wants to know.
That same space could have been spent discussing a more interesting topic.
Like me.
>
>At least I have a life.
>Got a girlfriend Gi???
I'm scared of girls.
> Have you??? Have you???
Ah...I...I...
Bah, I don't need to stinkin' girlfriend.
Afterall. I got you Simon.
Soon ill have money and be beating the hotties of with thaikicks.
Know dat.
>
>You fucking sad bastard...no friends...
I got plenty of friends, it is my gift of gab.
>..no girlfriend,
Hey, IVE HAD MORE THAN YOU!!
Id betcha.
>why don't you just
>admit your lifes shit and throw yourself in front of the next bus?
I must be the shizzit, you mention "i work in a hospital (janitor)" and NEXT
THING you know, we are talking Gichoke,
Enjoy.
Gi
Grappler240
>>student of kenjutsu!!!!!!!! Can you say slice-o-matic?
>
>I disagree.
>Being a student of kenjutsu does NOT give one the ability to magically make a
>katana appear.
>
>Gi
>
>
I am a bjj student. I am also a cop who carries a glock .45 cal. pistol
everywhere he goes. Pull a katana on me and I'll ventilate you before you can
twitch with it. I'll also be justified.
how's that for one-upsmanship?
ronnie
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke
S McElvanney
> >"S McElvanney"
>
> > >I work in a hospital
> >>
> >> >None of us care about any aspect of your life,Simon.
>
> >
> >
> >Did I fucking say you did Gi??? Did I???
> >Fuckwit.
>
> No you did not.
> But you wasted space and everyones time.
> You posted something about YOU that no one wants to know.
Just like you posting everything you post. If you don't want to read what I
post then DON'T FUCKING READ IT!!! Its that fucking simple...do you write
into T.V. programs complaining because you watched something that you didn't
want to watch instead of turning the channel over???
> That same space could have been spent discussing a more interesting topic.
> Like me.
That comment helped to quantify the statement which followed. Instead of it
starting 'Our staff need to be trained how to defend
themselves...' I mentioned that I worked in a hospital
Typical weak Gichoke...starts loosing a discussion and starts to critisize
someones writing ability because he thinks that they included 5 unnecessary
words...which it turns out were necessary.
GODSTAR
> "S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Gichoke, other MMA fighters, and "real world" combatants need to deal with
> _much_ more violent scenarios.
I don't agree what sends a lot of people to the looney bin is too much
of excitory neurotransmitters. What this means is that some of the
most violent types end up in psychiatric wards...
I don't think you have a PHD in neuroscience but we could go on about
dopamine and schizophrenia, ion channels and bipolar dissorder etc.
Often what people in these jobs end up with is combatants who do bite
and are not only full of adrenaline but have an abnormal nervous
system that more excessively use it - esp in the cases of bipolar,
schizophrenics and psychotics etc.
> Even in a ring, they compete against
> well-trained and in-shape opponents, who are much more difficult to defeat
> than your unruly patients.
I agree with this at least as far as outmanuevering, but when you look
at the prison population as a whole there are more mentally ill people
than professionally trained fighters.(pendantic - duh!)
But only if ring fighters have ""just snapped"" or are "cold blooded
killers" or they are gansta's armed with guns are you getting the same
physiological attacks as crimes. In fact ringfighters for various
reasons(endurance being a big one) tend to be controlled where a real
attacker is "out of controll." The two are not interchangable and its
a dangerous mistake to confuse the two.
And this is true of everything you do inside a dojang!!
> They also aren't restricted to control techniques;
> they are free to choose from much more effective martial technique.
But pure grappling controll works better in MMA than pure striking.
> For example, you'd probably be fired for subduing a patient with a strong
> right cross to their nose, breaking the nose and knocking them out, despite
> the fact that it's a very useful and effective combat move.
Not as effective in MMA as taking them down and subduing them which
*is what 98% of aikido is. Its jujitsu but japanese not brazilian
which originally came from japan. Both do armbars. They aren't as
different from each other as apples and broccoli.
> Aikido is inferior to MMA (or BJJ) in almost every measurable way of
> "combat effectiveness".
Actually no it isn't. The Tokyo police did studies of Aikido and
Judo(which BJJ is just Kosen Judo) and found out that aikido really
worked better in real situations, by working better that means the
cops didn't die as often...
Consider the complexity of facts that are pre-existing in an armed or
unarmed conflict. You don't ever win by actually fighting someone if
its avoidable -the ring is avoidable. Oh yeah knives were the reason
sighted...
> People are drawn to Aikido for other reasons.
Thats absolutely true.
I think
Kirk Lawson
> You seem not to realize that it is _your_ situation which is special, and
> has little to do with "the real world".
>
> You're in an environment where you need to subdue the patient without hurting
> him. All your training will be devoted to control and compliance techniques.
> Also, you have the expectation of overwhelming numbers. (It generally will be
> a single patient against the combined security might of the whole hospital.)
In today's litigious environment, are you so sure of your words? I know
of one young man who was arrested and convicted because he injured the
muggers assaulting him "too harshly" for the courts sensitive
disposition. Couple of broken bones, nuth'n more.
*THAT* is "the real world."
Peace favor your sword (FSG)
--
As of 8:45 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, I live in a nation united.
Pierre Honeyman
Sorry Simon, your stupidity caused temporary memory loss on my part.
I was laughing so hard I couldn't quite see the keyboard or remember
who I was addressing.
"...country full of martial artists..."; that's rich!
Pierre
Badger Jones
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>"Don Geddis" <webm...@bjj.org> wrote in message
>
>> You seem not to realize that it is _your_ situation which is special, and
>> has little to do with "the real world".
>>
>> You're in an environment where you need to subdue the patient without hurting
>> him. All your training will be devoted to control and compliance techniques.
>> Also, you have the expectation of overwhelming numbers. (It generally will be
>> a single patient against the combined security might of the whole hospital.)
>
>In today's litigious environment, are you so sure of your words? I know
>of one young man who was arrested and convicted because he injured the
>muggers assaulting him "too harshly" for the courts sensitive
>disposition. Couple of broken bones, nuth'n more.
A former student of mine was convicted of assault because she broke
her attacker's nose - deemed 'excessive force'.
Free Steve Gartin!
Badger Jones
www.cyberus.ca/~badger
Gichoke
>
>> Gichoke, other MMA fighters, and "real world" combatants need to deal with
>> _much_ more violent scenarios.
>
>I don't agree what sends a lot of people to the looney bin is too much
>of excitory neurotransmitters. What this means is that some of the
>most violent types end up in psychiatric wards...
Jesus christ, you guys outwrestle a few retards and you think you are a bigger
badass than Tito Ortiz.... unfriggin believable.
>
>I don't think you have a PHD in neuroscience but we could go on about
>dopamine and schizophrenia, ion channels and bipolar dissorder
HEY... I am bipolar.AND A MMA FIGHTER... Most of us are pretty messed up....
you'd be surprised.
>Often what people in these jobs end up with is combatants who do bite
Here it is... the "we are dirty eye gouges and biters blah blah blah".
Excuse me while I nap.
>and are not only full of adrenaline but have an abnormal nervous
>system
"abnormal" is not a compliment.
>s. In fact ringfighters for various
>reasons(endurance being a big one) tend to be controlled where a real
>attacker is "out of controll."
Yes, we are methodical machines, which makes us MUCH more dangerous than a
random chaotic sicko.
Hitler was more dangerous than Bundy.
Doctor Doom is mare dangerous than Solomon Grundy.
>
>Not as effective in MMA as taking them down and subduing them which
>*is what 98% of aikido is.
And it works great against willing guys that run past you allowing you a lame
rehearsed clothesline.
> Its jujitsu but japanese not brazilian
>which originally came from japan.
No shit?
>Both do armbars. They aren't as
>different from each other as apples and broccoli.
>
One is a form of wrestling, one is a battlefield art.
They are about 90% different.
> BJJ is just Kosen Judo
Really? What about vale tudo bjj?
Gi
S McElvanney
"Pierre Honeyman" <phon...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.02021...@posting.google.com...
> "S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2eca8.46473$H37.6...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phon...@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > "S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<df1a8.33586$as2.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>...
> > >
> > > > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> > > > country full of martial artists).
> > >
> > > Haaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
> > >
> > > Sean, you're funny, but not because you're trying.
> > >
> > > Pierre
> >
> > Who's Sean you French twat???
>
> Sorry Simon, your stupidity caused temporary memory loss on my part.
> I was laughing so hard I couldn't quite see the keyboard or remember
> who I was addressing.
>
> "...country full of martial artists..."; that's rich!
>
> Pierre
Thick bastard!!!
>
S McElvanney
"Badger Jones" <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c6a83b8...@news.storm.ca...
Well done you 2.
You will get arrested for excessive force if you are considered to use
excessive force. If your in a hospital, work in a hospital or are a
postman, it makes no difference.
Excessive force is excessive force....doesn't matter where it is.
S McElvanney
You're a janitor??? Well it all kinda fits in now...
S McElvanney
On the wildmans side is that you never know what he can do or is going to
do...unpredictable + oodles of erratic energy.
Trained fighter is skill and ability to pace himself.
Either are dangerous.
S McElvanney
Judo(which BJJ is just Kosen Judo) and found out that aikido really
worked better in real situations, by working better that means the
cops didn't die as often...
Anyone know a link to this study...I just want to shove it down Gi's scrawny
throat....the study that is.
Kirk Lawson
> Well done you 2.
>
> You will get arrested for excessive force if you are considered to use
> excessive force. If your in a hospital, work in a hospital or are a
> postman, it makes no difference.
>
> Excessive force is excessive force....doesn't matter where it is.
I'm not saying I agree with it. I think it sucks eggs. Those attackers
deserved everything they got and maybe more. I think my acquaintance
deserved a commendation, not to be arrested.
But this is the real world.
S McElvanney
I think if you attack someone for no good reason and you die or get
seriously hurt in the process, its tough on you.
"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message
news:3C6AD358...@heapy.com...
Eric Neale
Knowing MMA doesn't make the other guy's weapon disapear either. Why
do you assume that fights only happen in the situations that favor one
fighting style? You said that a Muay Thai student would beat an
Aikido student in just two minutes. But where and why are they
fighting? The only reason I can think of is because the Aikidoka
*must* defend themself - like his or her home is being invaded. Most
of the Aikidoka I know would have a katana, jo or at least a knife
where they could get to it. I prefer the boken.
Are you limiting yourself so that you can only see part of the
picture? If you don't train in avoiding weapons then your chances
against one would be the same as a person, who doesn't train on the
ground, avoiding a choke. If someone is going to attack, then they
will do it only if they think they have a big advantage. That might
be in size, weapons or numbers. MMA is great for the firs situation -
taking out someone of any size. Just choke them out or break an arm.
There is a big picture here. Training for a situation where you are
out numbered, someone is using a weapon against you, or both is
realistic and valuable. In Aikido it is easier to defend yourself
from two people than it is against just one. It is also easier to pin
four people at the same time than it is to pin just one.
Here is the root of the problem. You make statements that are too
broad to be true. If you were to qualify your claim, to narrow it
down some then you would be right on the money. Aikido isn't very
effective against a single, well-trained opponent. Aikido isn't very
effective in tight areas. Aikido is almost worthless on the ground.
Aikido is almost worthless in the ring/cage. Those statements can be
supported by evidence. I can't think of any way to defend against the
double weapons in Philipino systems. The weapons are used in a barage
of fast attacks without commitment. Maybe there are some Aikidoka
that could handle that, but they would be exceptional. Yet there is
no reason why an Aikidoka would need to defend against a trained MA.
Who would study Muay Thai or BJJ for ten years and then trun to a life
of crime? I supose it could happen, but how often? Some punk with a
knife or tire iron is a much more common criminal.
Those weak areas in Aikido are offset by other strengths. Making
others choose not to attack is very effective. Had I not learned that
skill, I am sure that I would not be alive today. Making the guy with
a gun decide not to attack could save your life.
-Eric
Eric Neale
> >Forget Aikidoka, lets compare how a MMA student would fair against a
> >>student of kenjutsu!!!!!!!! Can you say slice-o-matic?
> >
> >I disagree.
> >Being a student of kenjutsu does NOT give one the ability to magically make a
> >katana appear.
> >
> >Gi
> >
> >
>
> I am a bjj student. I am also a cop who carries a glock .45 cal. pistol
> everywhere he goes. Pull a katana on me and I'll ventilate you before you can
> twitch with it. I'll also be justified.
>
> how's that for one-upsmanship?
Exactly! That sums it up perfect.
Eric Neale
> "Don Geddis" <webm...@bjj.org> wrote in message
>
> > You seem not to realize that it is _your_ situation which is special, and
> > has little to do with "the real world".
> >
> > You're in an environment where you need to subdue the patient without hurting
> > him. All your training will be devoted to control and compliance techniques.
> > Also, you have the expectation of overwhelming numbers. (It generally will be
> > a single patient against the combined security might of the whole hospital.)
>
> In today's litigious environment, are you so sure of your words? I know
> of one young man who was arrested and convicted because he injured the
> muggers assaulting him "too harshly" for the courts sensitive
> disposition. Couple of broken bones, nuth'n more.
>
> *THAT* is "the real world."
Too true. I would be surprised if a court dispensed justice instead of injustice.
Eric Neale
> >m: calvin...@ocsnet.net (Eric Neale)
> ><snip> an attack might not be
> >schelduled, take place where there is no soft mat, involve two, three
> >or more attackers, and they might have knives, clubs, pistols or all
> >of the above.
>
> Yeah, I know.
> Aloot better than most of you.
> You gonna use aikido against armed gangs?
I don't know if they were carring weapons, but I have used it against
gangs. Because it is Aikido, you can use it to avoid a fight - even
when facing a gang. Aikido seeks the win-win situation.
> Yet in a ring we all know I'd rip up an aikIdoist.
Yes, I know this. I have always known this.
> BUT YOU THINK THEYLL KICK ASS IN THE STREET?
>
> So you are now saying that beating ME is tougher than beating an armed gang?
Yes, it would be. A group can be turned against its self in a way
that an individual cannot. You have only one mind, a grop is a
commitee. They make decisions like a commitee - slow and dumb. They
can be made to get into each other's way.
Without a weapon, the only person who could beat you one-on-one is
someone who has more experience in MMA, and there aren't very many
people like that.
> And as for matts,,,, you fight a grappler, youll wish you were fighting on win.
True. Aikido has that idea too. If some guy doesn't know how to fall
then that is his falt.
> >Reality cheak: Kyudo beats JJJ, BJJ, MMA, and just about any other
> >kind of art you want to name - every single time.
>
> Yeah and anthrax beats that.
>
> >enjutsu beats most of the unarmed arts every single time.
> >
> >Does that mean we sould give up all other arts and study Kyudo?
>
> No.Cause it requires a weapon and is therefoe 100% irrelevant.
Who would attack without a weapon? Most criminals have them, unless
they think the victem is easy prey - something Aikido is good at
preventing.
> >Good students from a good school of *any style* will beat bad students
> >from a bad school in any other style.
>
> I got a few bad students that would be willing to test this against some "good"
> aikido guys.
Are you saying that they want to commit a crime? I'm talking about
self defence, not a contest. Are they poor quality students trained
by a poor quality teacher? I don't think so.
> >. No mater what those two styles
> >are.
>
> Styles dont mean much, but training does.
On that we agree.
> My school spars wrestling, bjj, and thaiboxing, and combines them all in vale
> tudo sparring.
Then it sounds like you run a good school.
-Eric
Breaking Bottles at Yahoo . US_TLD
forums. I know a troll, but since I'm a newbie, I feel like biting.
I have studied both of these styles, but Aikido more (~2 years).
Aikido can be fun to practice, it will teach you how to fall, it will
make you better on your feet, it will make you more graceful, and it
will give you a set of restraining and evasion techniques that may be
useful if you get good enough to apply them against an alert and
strong opponent.
That being said, Aikido has a fundamental flaw that prevents it from
being an effective martial art: It's defensive philosophy. My
experience (both personal and vicarious - mostly bar brawls) is that
if you know you're going fist-to-cuffs, you've best off hitting first,
hitting hard, and hitting often. The more agressive figher can often
make up for size and experience.
Fist fighting, Desert Storm, Office Politics, Starcraft :), Legal
Battles... The same philosophy seems to work across the board.
Agressiveness works best. It's easier to control the time, the place,
the rules, and your opponent's ability to deal with the subsequent
onslought if you bring it first, and you bring it hard.
That does not mean, of course, that you should start pounding on
someone that glances at your girlfriend. This is to say that if you
are in danger and/or you feel that you are in the right, either
morally or in the eyes of the law (if applicable), be the first to
escalate -quickly-.
I'm sure that this is second nature to those of you who are criminally
insane *COUGH*GI*COUGH*.
wealth...@hotmail.com (myname) wrote in message news:<53052c03.02020...@posting.google.com>...
> shahr...@hotmail.com (shahriar) wrote in message news:<72056eaf.02020...@posting.google.com>...
> > Hi all
> > i was just wondering which style to learn and i came across 2 style
> > which i was very interested in. these were Aikido and Muay Thai. i
> > also wondered who would win, a expert at Aikido or an expert at Mauy
> > thai??? can any1 give me an idea of which 2 choose??
>
> I suggest you study Aikido.
> Because if you can destroy a Muay Thai heavy weight world champion
> with pure Aikido techniques then I am sure you are the best martial
> artist ever. Because you truly understand all the knowledge of human
> body mechanics. The technique doesn't matter, what matters is your
> understanding of the fundamental laws.
Jacob Andersen
/Jacob
"GODSTAR" <god...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5a1f8e9a.02021...@posting.google.com...
> gic...@aol.com (Gichoke) wrote in message
news:<20020212011645...@mb-mk.aol.com>...
> > >"S McElvanney"
>
> > > (Yoshinkan Aikido - Tokyo police force - in a
> > >country full of martial artists)
>
> > And almost no crime.
>
> Thats exactly how effective it is.
>
> > Gi
Gichoke
>
>> BUT YOU THINK THEYLL KICK ASS IN THE STREET?
>>
>> So you are now saying that beating ME is tougher than beating an armed
>gang?
>
>Yes, it would be.
That is about the stupidist thing I ever heard.
I will tell you right now that an armed gang would kill me... litterally, and
fast.
And guess what?
I am biased in MY favor.
So we must take this into account.
> A group can be turned against its self in a way
Yeah,maybe if you're Proffessor Xavier,Svengali, or that guy in "Scanners"
that blows up the other guys head... but how does this help the rest of us?
>. You have only one mind, a grop is a
>commitee.
So? A committee can beat up one guy.
Because two is more than one.
Here's the formula...2>1
> They make decisions like a commitee - slow and dumb.
No no no.
They make decision as a collection of individuals.
Say you fight four guys.
One decides he''ll punch you, one decides to kick you, one decides to grab you,
and one decides to tackle you.
Now... they may not all accomplish their goal.
But YOU sure as hell aint gonna accomplish shit unless you are sporting an Uzi.
You have what I call "Movie-itis"
You have just seen too many hollywood productions to know the difference
between fiction and reality.
Beating four guus is not reality.
And we were discussing ARMED GUYS!
>They
>can be made to get into each other's way.
Sure, and it might buy you an extra 5 seconds before they stomp you into
fertilizer.
>> >Does that mean we sould give up all other arts and study Kyudo?
>>
>> No.Cause it requires a weapon and is therefoe 100% irrelevant.
>
>Who would attack without a weapon?
The guy that couldnt fit a katana in his pocket?
> Most criminals have them
Yeah, so us lawful guys may get attacked by guys with weapons.
But we probably wont have a weapon, and if one of us does pull a weapon, we
really dont need to know how to use it, cause most people will run when getting
shot at, or will not be determined enough to continue to demand your wallet
when you pull out a katana.
> got a few bad students that would be willing to test this against some
>"good"
>> aikido guys.
>
>Are you saying that they want to commit a crime?
Sure, for a price,What do you need? Throw some figures at me.
Gi
Gichoke
>> I disagree.
>> Being a student of kenjutsu does NOT give one the ability to magically make
>a
>> katana appear.
>
>Knowing MMA doesn't make the other guy's weapon disapear either. Why
>do you assume that fights only happen in the situations that favor one
>fighting style?
I NEVER STATED ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!
I grew up in a very violent situation, I know all about real violence.
My ability to beat up my neighbor is probably MORE likely to get me killed than
if I was a guy that never had lesson number one.
I spar constantly, so I know exactly how fragile men are.
I could fight any of you get shoved backwards, crack my head on the curb and
die instantly.
Shit like that happens all the time.
You cannot preapre yourself for random violence, it is logically impossible.
streetfighting is jusdt a synomym for "generic violent encounter" but there is
no average---generic violent encounter,
You might be wearing body armor, have three armed bodyguards with you, and some
guy could drive an 18 wheeler through your front door.
All you traditionalist actually are immature enough to rationalize that your
training makes you more safe.
Well it doesnt... not one bit.
My training doesnt either.
If it was really all about self defense then you could just move to Iceland or
Japan.
But you dont... cause you dont even know it, but self defense has zero to do
with why you train.
Jigoro Kano realised what I am saying here back around 1880.And he created the
modern martial arts.
But you suckas see van damme in a movie and the next thing you know you
honestly believe that being able to kick ass matters.
It doesnt.
Not one single bit.
So why do we train?
Because we are men, and fighting was evolved into us.We have an urge to battle
it out up the pecking order.
You can suppress this urge and wind up a bent up weakling, you can go the other
way and let the urge run you... and you will wind up dead or in prison in
nothing flat.
Or you can release it in controlled doses in your dojo.
We all got different testoserone levels, and aikido might cut it for some if
us... I got lots of bad ideas in my head, so I need a stronger release, which
is vale tudo.
And I am not faulting anyone here for their training... UNTIL, they confuse
fantasy and reality and start typing crap about martial arts allowing them to
beat up gangs, or that some lame selfdefense course can actually make them
safer.
>In Aikido it is easier to defend yourself
>from two people than it is against just one.
Because in an aikido class, those two guys are not really attacking you.
They are just the stuntmen in your own little Van Damme dream sequence.
> It is also easier to pin
>four people at the same time than it is to pin just one.
Just like in reality,eh?
LOL.
Gi
Gichoke
>
>Here is the root of the problem. You make statements that are too
>broad to be true.
If it bothers you, then it is your problem, not mine.
You should try blending with my statements... let them envelope you, be at one
with their ki.
Then just type "I agree with gi"
Life has less conflict that way.
> If you were to qualify your claim, to narrow it
I would be like the rest of you.
Ew.
> Aikido isn't very
>effective against a single, well-trained opponent. Aikido isn't very
>effective in tight areas. Aikido is almost worthless on the ground.
>Aikido is almost worthless in the ring/cage. Those statements can be
>supported by evidence
Yup, and can this be?
> In Aikido it is easier to defend yourself
>from two people than it is against just one. It is also easier to pin
>four people at the same time than it is to pin just one.
>
>Those weak areas in Aikido are offset by other strengths. Making
>others choose not to attack is very effective.
So do steroids, get up to 300 pounds of muscle and wear a Tshirt that says "I
am an HIV+ Hemophiliac"
I wouldnt fuck with a guy like that.
You see Ueshiba had one thing wrong.
Men are designed to seek conflict... not to learn to avoid it.
Avoiding it is for women.... and sheep.
It is the desire to seek conflict and to overcome it that made man (and man
alone) the masters of this world.
Ueshiba could blend with the best of them.
But to me, blending is the saddest most pathetic thing a man can do.
Life is a struggle.. a struggle for domination.
There may be deeped meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men.
There are still over 1000 towns and citiers in this world that were named after
Alexander the Great.
And yeah, it got him nothing, cause he is still dead.
But so is Ueshiba, and Ghandi.... and Lennon.
>Had I not learned that
>skill, I am sure that I would not be alive today
AND MAYBE YOU'D HAVE A CITY NAMED AFTER YOU.
And guess what?
You are gonna die anyway.
There aint a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for any of us.
Just a thousand years of decay, then you crumble to dust.
May as well fight.
>Making the guy with
>a gun decide not to attack could save your life.
And is living always the goal?
Gi
etorjt
>>calvin...@ocsnet.net (Eric Neale)
>>> I disagree.
>>> Being a student of kenjutsu does NOT give one the ability to magically make
>>a
>>> katana appear.
>>
>>Knowing MMA doesn't make the other guy's weapon disapear either. Why
>>do you assume that fights only happen in the situations that favor one
>>fighting style?
>
>I NEVER STATED ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!
>I grew up in a very violent situation, I know all about real violence.
>My ability to beat up my neighbor is probably MORE likely to get me killed than
>if I was a guy that never had lesson number one.
>
>I spar constantly, so I know exactly how fragile men are.
>I could fight any of you get shoved backwards, crack my head on the curb and
>die instantly.
>Shit like that happens all the time.
>You cannot preapre yourself for random violence, it is logically impossible.
>streetfighting is jusdt a synomym for "generic violent encounter" but there is
>no average---generic violent encounter,
>You might be wearing body armor, have three armed bodyguards with you, and some
>guy could drive an 18 wheeler through your front door.
>All you traditionalist actually are immature enough to rationalize that your
>training makes you more safe.
No, Gi, not all of us. Although I do think knowing how to fall
down helps on a slippery sidewalk.
>Well it doesnt... not one bit.
>My training doesnt either.
>If it was really all about self defense then you could just move to Iceland or
>Japan.
>But you dont... cause you dont even know it, but self defense has zero to do
>with why you train.
I agree, even though I'm a tradtionalist (that is, I practice
aikido).
>Jigoro Kano realised what I am saying here back around 1880.And he created the
>modern martial arts.
>But you suckas see van damme in a movie and the next thing you know you
>honestly believe that being able to kick ass matters.
>It doesnt.
>Not one single bit.
>So why do we train?
>Because we are men, and fighting was evolved into us.We have an urge to battle
>it out up the pecking order.
Far more so when I was a young guy and boxed and wrestled. I train
now because:
It's fun.
It's challenging. It constantly demands that I re-examine what I'm
doing, and that I refine, refine, refine my technique.
It forces me to confront myself: i.e., to face my limitations, my
fears and anxieties, my pettiness, and a hundred other
uncomfortable emotions. It also shows me where my strengths are
and helps me to realize that I'm capable of improving, even though
I'm an old fart. I used to take great satisfaction in negotiating
the obstacle in front of me (the other guy) with a left hook or a
right cross. These days I take great satisfaction in getting past
a different obstacle: myself.
It gets me to focus, stay centered, and relax.
Would I be wrong in suspecting that Vale Tudo delivers some of
these same goods to you as well? In addition to winning the
pissing match, I mean.
Hagakure
must resist urge to say '42'
dan-hapily hichhiking
Badger Jones
<snip>
>So why do we train?
>Because we are men, and fighting was evolved into us.We have an urge to battle
>it out up the pecking order.
>You can suppress this urge and wind up a bent up weakling, you can go the other
>way and let the urge run you... and you will wind up dead or in prison in
>nothing flat.
>Or you can release it in controlled doses in your dojo.
>We all got different testoserone levels, and aikido might cut it for some if
>us... I got lots of bad ideas in my head, so I need a stronger release, which
>is vale tudo.
Great post, Gi.
Gichoke
Nope, and a payday,as well.
Gi
Dmitri
> .........
> Men are designed to seek conflict... not to learn to avoid it.
> Avoiding it is for women.... and sheep.
>
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
The traditional configuration is women egging up the men to go out and
kill or be killed on the women's behalf. Like in the Norse sagas (my
ancestors were a barrel of laughs).
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
S McElvanney
"Breaking Bottles at Yahoo . US_TLD" <breakin...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:db1a219d.02021...@posting.google.com...
> Although I am new to this board, I am not new to online discussion
> forums. I know a troll, but since I'm a newbie, I feel like biting.
>
> I have studied both of these styles, but Aikido more (~2 years).
> Aikido can be fun to practice, it will teach you how to fall, it will
> make you better on your feet, it will make you more graceful, and it
> will give you a set of restraining and evasion techniques that may be
> useful if you get good enough to apply them against an alert and
> strong opponent.
>
> That being said, Aikido has a fundamental flaw that prevents it from
> being an effective martial art: It's defensive philosophy. My
> experience (both personal and vicarious - mostly bar brawls) is that
> if you know you're going fist-to-cuffs, you've best off hitting first,
> hitting hard, and hitting often.
What country do you live in where this is allowed???
The line ' I hit him because he was going to hit me' isn't good enough.
Not hard to smack someone if they start trouble.
etorjt
S McElvanney
release aggression because your scared to go out on the street and do it
because it might kill you.
Thats fair enough.
Do you wank to stop yourself from going outside to rape someone???
I personally have far better things to do with my time than to wage battle
or fight.
I am a human....not a teritorial monkey...we are supposed to have evolved.
Gi said...'I would fight to live, I wouldn't live to fight.
It is the desire to seek conflict and to overcome it that made man (and man
alone) the masters of this world'
What utter shit. It is this distructive nature that is contained within
ourselves.
The reason we are masters of this world as you call us is as
follows...jungle in Afria turned into grass lands...monkeys start walking on
2 legs...occasionally eat raw meat (contain neutrients vital for growing a
big brain if the animal requires one)...mix for a few million years....man!
There are plenty of things which are part of our nature that we must fight
against because they are wrong. Such as racism, war, evil.
Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it is right.
with my fat dick
>die instantly.
And that's exactly what WOULD happen, if you stepped to me, punk!!!!
Trav
Eric Neale
> >calvin...@ocsnet.net
>
> >
> >> BUT YOU THINK THEYLL KICK ASS IN THE STREET?
> >>
> >> So you are now saying that beating ME is tougher than beating an armed
> >gang?
> >
> >Yes, it would be.
>
> That is about the stupidist thing I ever heard.
> I will tell you right now that an armed gang would kill me... litterally, and
> fast.
> And guess what?
> I am biased in MY favor.
> So we must take this into account.
Hold on there. I wan't talking about how you would do against a gang.
I was saying that it would be much easier for an Aikidoka to face a
small group ( about 2 to 4 people depending on skill ) than to face a
skilled grapler. If you know how to work them it isn't such a big
deal. Some might think it was imposible to fight a body builder. I
am sure you could take care of him in a snap (pun intended) because
you know what to do on the ground.
> > A group can be turned against its self in a way
>
> Yeah,maybe if you're Proffessor Xavier,Svengali, or that guy in "Scanners"
> that blows up the other guys head... but how does this help the rest of us?
Well, some people think Aikido isn't combat effective and I really
can't help them. I mean you can lead a horse to water, but if it
won't drink what can you do?
> >. You have only one mind, a grop is a
> >commitee.
>
> So? A committee can beat up one guy.
> Because two is more than one.
> Here's the formula...2>1
How would you take out someone who was twice as strong as you, but
didn't know how to graple? I am guessing you would use some method or
technique that would give you an advantage even when 2 > 1. Other
techniques can do the same thing for the other situation.
> > They make decisions like a commitee - slow and dumb.
>
> No no no.
> They make decision as a collection of individuals.
> Say you fight four guys.
> One decides he''ll punch you, one decides to kick you, one decides to grab you,
> and one decides to tackle you.
> Now... they may not all accomplish their goal.
> But YOU sure as hell aint gonna accomplish shit unless you are sporting an Uzi.
Or you can run through the middle, circle around and then push them
into one big pile. I am not saying that it is easy, only that it can
be done with proper training - years of proper training.
> You have what I call "Movie-itis"
> You have just seen too many hollywood productions to know the difference
> between fiction and reality.
I hate MA movies - except for Jackie Chan because he doesn't take
himself seriously. But the rest, for the most part, are just poorly
writen stories with stupid cooriography. Most producers are not
interested in the true nature of MA, only in what sells tickets.
Reality is dealing with Drug pushers and the Anaheim Vato Locos.
> Beating four guus is not reality.
> And we were discussing ARMED GUYS!
It wouldn't be easy. Surprise, stratagy, and technique. Better yet,
get them to walk away. There is a way to do that too. In Aikido we
call it restoring harmony.
> >They
> >can be made to get into each other's way.
>
> Sure, and it might buy you an extra 5 seconds before they stomp you into
> fertilizer.
Nah, most of them will resit. It's hard to keep fighting when you
seperate you shoulder or dislocate your wrist. That is what happens
when you resist an Aikido tehcnique. Except for those who don't know
how to fall. They will crack their skulls on the pavement. Again
that is their own falt. Everyone should learn to fall.
-Eric
with my fat dick
>> Avoiding it is for women.... and sheep.
>>
>Don't know about sheep, but women avoiding conflicts?? Now that's a stretch.
>
Women just peck. They peck and peck and peck and peck until you completely
crumble. It's like erosion.
Trav
Eric Neale
<snip of some great insights into what motivates men to train>
> And I am not faulting anyone here for their training... UNTIL, they confuse
> fantasy and reality and start typing crap about martial arts allowing them to
> beat up gangs, or that some lame selfdefense course can actually make them
> safer.
So, your position is that I am insane and the only evidence you offer
for it is that you don't believe what I wrote?
Let me guess: Do you think that when you beat people in the cage that
proves that your system works, but when an Aikidoka survives a
dangerous situation that proves nothing?
> >In Aikido it is easier to defend yourself
> >from two people than it is against just one.
>
> Because in an aikido class, those two guys are not really attacking you.
> They are just the stuntmen in your own little Van Damme dream sequence.
No, because you make them trip over each other.
> > It is also easier to pin
> >four people at the same time than it is to pin just one.
>
> Just like in reality,eh?
Not in a fight, but when some friends were messing around five of them
jumped me. I pinned four of them at the same time while keeping the
last one at bay. I held them against the wall until they learned
their lesson. They were quite impressed. It was also quite fun. The
same principles can be used in a fight.
-Eric
Eric Neale
> >calvin...@ocsnet.net (Eric Neale)
>
> >
> >Here is the root of the problem. You make statements that are too
> >broad to be true.
>
> If it bothers you, then it is your problem, not mine.
> You should try blending with my statements... let them envelope you, be at one
> with their ki.
> Then just type "I agree with gi"
> Life has less conflict that way.
I agree with gi
I agree with gi
I agree with gi
Hey, that has a nice ring to it.
-Eric
Gichoke
>
>So Gi, reading your last few posts, you train because you want to fight and
>release aggression because your scared to go out on the street and do it
>because it might kill you.
No, I dont fight on the street because
1 it doesnt pay
2 you get filthy
3 you may die
4 you get arressted
5 you get sued
6 you may kill someone
moron.
>
>Do you wank to stop yourself from going outside to rape someone???
Yes!
>
>I personally have far better things to do with my time than to wage battle
>or fight.
like get outwitted and humiliated on message boards?
Gi
Jason Haynes
news:fca39b3b.02021...@posting.google.com...
> gic...@aol.com (Gichoke) wrote in message
news:<20020214000753...@mb-mf.aol.com>...
> > >calvin...@ocsnet.net
> >
>
> Nah, most of them will resit. It's hard to keep fighting when you
> seperate you shoulder or dislocate your wrist. That is what happens
> when you resist an Aikido tehcnique. Except for those who don't know
> how to fall. They will crack their skulls on the pavement. Again
> that is their own falt. Everyone should learn to fall.
>
> -Eric
Only if the Aikido technique is executed correctly !
The receiver should not realise what is happening so they don't GET THE
CHANCE to resist.
If your technique is lacking they could anticipate & resist the technique
early. It will not get applied and it will not be Aikido.
I believe what you are trying to say is that when an Aikido technique is
executed correctly it is hard to resist when the technique is PAST A CERTAIN
POINT (i.e. the point of no return)....... however any resistance before
that point will hinder/prevent the technique.
An example say the Aikido Nikkyo wrist lock. When the Aikiodoka hand
initially begins to wrap round opponents wrist to apply the lock your
opponent simply needs to grab your fingers with his free hand and twist in
upside down and back screwing your techique up big time !!...... Too many
Aikidoka assume they are going to be tackling the stupid & useless who
telegraph haymakers or grab your wrist and stand there.......... just
grabbing your wrist.............
Breaking Bottles at Yahoo . US_TLD
more abstract truth. Man does seek victory, but victory can come in
many forms not associated with violent conflict.
Engineers, for example, seek victory in the form of more tangible
accomplishment. Priests and politians seek victory over the minds
through the ears. Da player seek victory over 'dat ass. Artists and
writers seek victory over the minds through the eyes: an activity that
you are engaged in, I might add.
If you want to get buildings and citys named after you, I suggest you
become a politician. If you're saying that it doesn't matter in the
end, you should be selling coke, fucking whores and doing a lot of
drugs. You may land in prison that way, but that would provide you
with MANY opportunities to fight.
So victory is based entirely upon domination... You don't think
curiosity had anything to do with the "discovery" (and, following,
establishment) of America? Look, I'm not saying that you are wrong...
I'm just saying that you have a narrow vision of your "nature" as a
human.
S McElvanney
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020214193924...@mb-cr.aol.com...
> >m: "S McElvanney"
>
> >
> >So Gi, reading your last few posts, you train because you want to fight
and
> >release aggression because your scared to go out on the street and do it
> >because it might kill you.
>
> No, I dont fight on the street because
> 1 it doesnt pay
> 2 you get filthy
> 3 you may die
> 4 you get arressted
> 5 you get sued
> 6 you may kill someone
> moron.
>
> >
> >Do you wank to stop yourself from going outside to rape someone???
>
> Yes!
Lucky you do or the small boys that live near you would be very sore.
>
> >
> >I personally have far better things to do with my time than to wage
battle
> >or fight.
>
> like get outwitted and humiliated on message boards?
>
> Gi
Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
And when I say better things....oh no...better not mention....you are single
after all - makes me wonder how your forearms are so small?
S McElvanney
"Breaking Bottles at Yahoo . US_TLD" <breakin...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:db1a219d.02021...@posting.google.com...
I'll say the big benders wrong then.
The only thing Gi would like domination over is mens bottoms.
Aristeia
"S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yH%a8.70428$H37.9258703@news2-
>
> Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
Let's assume that's true. That would make you less witty than a stuffed
aardvark. Not the smartist move.
--
Aristeia
"We wouldn't worry so much about what people thought of us if we knew how
seldom they did"
Aristeia
"Breaking Bottles at Yahoo . US_TLD" <breakin...@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:db1a219d.02021...@posting.google.com...
> more abstract truth. Man does seek victory, but victory can come in
> many forms not associated with violent conflict.
>
> Engineers, for example, seek victory in the form of more tangible
> accomplishment. Priests and politians seek victory over the minds
> through the ears. Da player seek victory over 'dat ass. Artists and
> writers seek victory over the minds through the eyes: an activity that
> you are engaged in, I might add.
Nietzche's will to power...
Gichoke
>Man does seek victory, but victory can come in
>many forms not associated with violent conflict.
Of course.
>
>Engineers, for example, seek victory in the form of more tangible
>accomplishment. Priests and politians seek victory over the minds
>through the ears. Da player seek victory over 'dat ass. Artists and
>writers seek victory over the minds through the eyes: an activity that
>you are engaged in, I might add.
And some of these paths are noble.
But warriorhood is something special.
Artists have "rocky" fantasies... boxers dont have sculpting fantasies.
>
>If you want to get buildings and citys named after you, I suggest you
>become a politician.
In due time.
> If you're saying that it doesn't matter in the
>end, you should be selling coke, fucking whores and doing a lot of
>drugs.
Hows two outta three?
But hey... who said the big guy wasn't keeping score?
Better cover all bases.....you might get whacked suddenly and have no time for
a deathbed conversion.
> You may land in prison that way, but that would provide you
>with MANY opportunities to fight.
I'll probably have a better time on the inside.
>
>So victory is based entirely upon domination... You don't think
>curiosity had anything to do with the "discovery"
Curiosity is what gets you interested.... but only the exceptional dominate.
>I'm not saying that you are wrong...
> I'm just saying that you have a narrow vision of your "nature" as a
>human.
A great man once said "simplify"
Gi
Gichoke
>
>I'll say the big benders wrong then.
>The only thing Gi would like domination over is mens bottoms.
You might wanna go with "assholes" next time, Simon.
Only little girls and fruits say "bottoms"
Gi
Gichoke
> >I personally have far better things to do with my time than to wage
>battle
>> >or fight.
>>
>> like get outwitted and humiliated on message boards?
>>
>> Gi
>
>Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
Your jokes must kick ass during recess.
>
>And when I say better things....oh no...better not mention....you are single
>after all - makes me wonder how your forearms are so small?
I believe that you wonder about my forearms.
Your obsession with me continues unabated.
Lets just skip ahead to the part where you challange me...I accept, then you
dissapear, ok?
Gi
Bill
>> experience (both personal and vicarious - mostly bar brawls) is that
>> if you know you're going fist-to-cuffs, you've best off hitting first,
>> hitting hard, and hitting often.
>
>
>
>
>What country do you live in where this is allowed???
>The line ' I hit him because he was going to hit me' isn't good enough.
>
Sure it is!
Right here in the good ole USA ;-)
It's known as "implied threat"
You need to check local laws to find your limits and their version.
You are still responsible for your action, but it can be justified by
size of your opponent, verbal threats made by them to do you bodily
harm, physical intimidations (body language) etc.
The law doesn't always say you have to take, or wait for the first
hit!
Specially if your a small helpless sort like me;-)
Sides that if no one else is around drop em and head to the house.
Bill
Robert Low
> >What country do you live in where this is allowed???
> >The line ' I hit him because he was going to hit me' isn't good enough.
> Sure it is!
> Right here in the good ole USA ;-)
I believe that even in the UK you can get away with a first
strike if you can make a good case that you genuinely believed
that you were about to be assaulted. Of course, that
good case has to cover your attempts to avoid physical
confrontation and escape. But once you have tried and
failed both of those, and are in genuine fear of violence,
you can hit. Of course, once you've done that you
begin to enter the murkier waters of justifiable force...
Best action from the legal point of view is not to be
there when the law arrives. (Works best if the attacker
doesn't know who you are, of course :-))
---
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Hagakure
>
> You see Ueshiba had one thing wrong.
>
> Men are designed to seek conflict... not to learn to avoid it.
> Avoiding it is for women.... and sheep.
women *do not* avoid conflict, they just do a sneaky, shoot you in the
back kind. Rather like a war of attrition (sp?)
>
> It is the desire to seek conflict and to overcome it that made man (and man
> alone) the masters of this world.
we've built our selves a rather high tower, and if we are not careful,
conflict could quite easily push us off again. As could a lack of
conflict.
>
> Ueshiba could blend with the best of them.
> But to me, blending is the saddest most pathetic thing a man can do.
>
'he who yields wins'
> Life is a struggle.. a struggle for domination.
We, as a race, no longer struggle for life. we have it handed to us.
Some throw it away.
Interesting point - Ive only thought about it this moment, but as far
as I know, no amimal has ever commited suicide, even animals cought in
traps suffering what must be agony fight for life, even if it means
chewing off their own legs/feet
> There may be deeped meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men.
does not the existance of deeper meanings in the minds of men prove
that deeper meanings exist?
> There are still over 1000 towns and citiers in this world that were named after
> Alexander the Great.
> And yeah, it got him nothing, cause he is still dead.
but, as the metallica song goes, the memory remains.
besides, hes not dead - hes just gone home ;-)
> But so is Ueshiba, and Ghandi.... and Lennon.
and elvis.
>
> >Had I not learned that
> >skill, I am sure that I would not be alive today
>
> AND MAYBE YOU'D HAVE A CITY NAMED AFTER YOU.
> And guess what?
> You are gonna die anyway.
> There aint a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for any of us.
> Just a thousand years of decay, then you crumble to dust.
> May as well fight.
fight what?
>
> >Making the guy with
> >a gun decide not to attack could save your life.
>
> And is living always the goal?
surely the meaning of life is to live?
>
> Gi
Like it or not Gi, the meaning of life *is* to live, and to live is to
gain experience. What makes you want to gain experience? your
asperations.
Asperations are the things which drive us all. Some people aspire to
be rich, to have a nice family, some even aspire to fuck britney
spears. It doesnt make any difference if we get these things or not,
because as you pointed out, we all going to die. To be honest, this
doesnt bother me. Im not afraid of death. I dont have a religion,
and I dont want one. I dont believe in the afterlife, and dont want
to.
What is important is gaining the experiences along the way, making you
feel that you have led a life worth living, cause otherwise your using
up MY gas, and MY electricity and MY food.
If I may psychoanalyse, if what you say here is representative of what
you really feel, you obviously believe in going down fighting, caus
you aspire to have what you see as a 'honerable' death.
> There aint a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for any of us.
> Just a thousand years of decay, then you crumble to dust.
> May as well fight.
why bother fighting at all? Just a thousand years of decay, then you
crumble to dust.
May as well not bother.
it makes *much* more sense not to bother, Gi.
but that all deponds on what your gold is, doesnt it?
Having a few cities names after oneself would be preferable to a shiny
rock IMHO.
Chas
> ......
> I believe that even in the UK you can get away with a first
> strike if you can make a good case that you genuinely believed
> that you were about to be assaulted.
Certainly in the US.
In fact, given a set of circumstances, one could preemptively shoot
and kill a man who posed a threat.
Interestingly, the old 'walk & draw' gunfight was pretty rare. More
common was the sending of a threat and the commencement of fire upon
sighting the opponent. It has been construed that the simple saying of
a man's name ('hey, Bob!'), in the proper circumstance, was sufficient
warning to justify his death when shot shortly afterwards.
--
Chas
Free Steve Gartin and Vote for him for Sheriff!
http://www.cafepress.com/gartin
www.cafepress.com/freesteve
http://geocities.com/stevegartin/
S McElvanney
"Aristeia" <brenin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C%0b8.439$B92....@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> "S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:yH%a8.70428$H37.9258703@news2-
> >
> > Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
>
> Let's assume that's true. That would make you less witty than a stuffed
> aardvark. Not the smartist move.
I fail to see you logic...jumping on the big gay Gi bandwagon are we???
S McElvanney
> >"S McElvanney"
>
> > >I personally have far better things to do with my time than to wage
> >battle
> >> >or fight.
> >>
> >> like get outwitted and humiliated on message boards?
> >>
> >> Gi
> >
> >Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
>
> Your jokes must kick ass during recess.
Oh...are you still at school Gi...I thought as much judging from your posts.
>
> >
> >And when I say better things....oh no...better not mention....you are
single
> >after all - makes me wonder how your forearms are so small?
>
> I believe that you wonder about my forearms.
> Your obsession with me continues unabated.
>
> Lets just skip ahead to the part where you challange me...I accept, then
you
> dissapear, ok?
Challenge you to what??? Why would anyone dissapear?
>
> Gi
S McElvanney
Well you'd know, you're the expert there.
S McElvanney
S McElvanney
> >om: breakingbottles@yahoo.c
>
> >Man does seek victory, but victory can come in
> >many forms not associated with violent conflict.
>
> Of course.
>
> >
> >Engineers, for example, seek victory in the form of more tangible
> >accomplishment. Priests and politians seek victory over the minds
> >through the ears. Da player seek victory over 'dat ass. Artists and
> >writers seek victory over the minds through the eyes: an activity that
> >you are engaged in, I might add.
>
> And some of these paths are noble.
> But warriorhood is something special.
> Artists have "rocky" fantasies... boxers dont have sculpting fantasies.
>
> >
> >If you want to get buildings and citys named after you, I suggest you
> >become a politician.
>
> In due time.
>
> > If you're saying that it doesn't matter in the
> >end, you should be selling coke, fucking whores and doing a lot of
> >drugs.
>
> Hows two outta three?
Your own mother doesn't count...she does it for free cos your her son and
she LOVES you.
>
> But hey... who said the big guy wasn't keeping score?
> Better cover all bases.....you might get whacked suddenly and have no time
for
> a deathbed conversion.
>
> > You may land in prison that way, but that would provide you
> >with MANY opportunities to fight.
>
> I'll probably have a better time on the inside.
>
I bet you would.
> >
> >So victory is based entirely upon domination... You don't think
> >curiosity had anything to do with the "discovery"
>
> Curiosity is what gets you interested.... but only the exceptional
dominate.
Is that what they tell you at your S & M 'meetings'?
>
> >I'm not saying that you are wrong...
> > I'm just saying that you have a narrow vision of your "nature" as a
> >human.
>
> A great man once said "simplify"
That wouldn't be you then.
>
> Gi
f...@leland.stanford.edu
At a BASIC training level-used as a simple exercise-you may start with someone firmly
clamped onto your wrist. The trick in this case is to begin to move them and go into
a "technique". This is followed by more realistic training. In Aikido training it
is always emphasised that a grab is combined with a punch or kick. In realistic training
you begin to move so that at the moment you are grabbed you are already out of the way
of the accompanying kick or punch. It advanced training the defender actually draws the
attacker out using an atemi to cause the attacker to grab - rather than getting a hand in
the face or groin. Thus - the defender actually takes the initiative - controlling the attack
as well an the defense.
When it comes to the defense - it is NOT a preplanned set of motions. After the initial movement
to get to a place where a kick or punch is ineffective there is a flow of motion that is determined
by the attacker's response to the defenders technique. Much of the skill in aikido is for the
defender to let go of the ego so you can use the attacker's energy against them - even as the attacker
changes tactics. IF a defender enters a mind set that says " I WILL DO A WRIST LOCK" or " I WILL THROW
THIS PERSON" they will eventually fail against a stronger opponenet. But once you get to the "blind
side" and respond to a changing attack - letting go of preconceived possibilities you open the door
to doing the wristlock or throw WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY exists and the attacker is essentially helpless
to stop it.
Please remember some basic physics. Once the center of mass of an attacker is not above their feet -
they are off balance and WILL start to fall. The aikidoka's skill comes in moving the attacker in
such a way that they cannot regain their balance- and are therefor basically helpless. The possibilities
for taking the balance initially exist in all attacks - it may take years of training and great skill
to do - but the possibilities are there.
Lastly, at higher skill levels, 2nd Black Belt and above -"reversal techniques" are required for advancement.
The principle of these is to "go with" the defenders technique and at the proper moment go beyond them
into a role reversal. This takes great skill and training - and does not require great strength - just proper
timing and motion.
I suggest you find an aikido school and try to experience some of these things for yourself. A whole new
world awaits you.
Frank
cuz you like it like that
>Lets just skip ahead to the part where you challange me...I accept, then you
>dissapear, ok?
>
>Gi
not if I can help it.
Trav
Eric Neale
I would call that a reversal. Aikido techniques are relativly easy to
reverse by someone who is sensitive to the energy, knows what to do,
and acts fast. What I meant by resist is "He is twisting my arm so I
am going to tighten every muscle and push my arm back the other way."
Which is a great way to ruin your arm. In Aikido I've had a few minor
injurys, and I know someone who seperated his sholder because we
resisted a technique. On the other hand, reversing is fun and easy.
Just figure out where the Aikidoka is trying to send you and get there
faster. Or like you mentioned, just do something to undermine the
technique before it gets started.
In contrast, Judo and Jujutsu techniques work in a different way. I
have been injured in Judo because I flowed with the technique when I
should have resisted it. In Jujutsu you use much more mucle and it's
in direct conflict with the other guy who is trying to do the same
thing to you. The mind set is different. Conflicting force brings
success.
-Eric
Aristeia
>
> "Aristeia" <brenin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:C%0b8.439$B92....@news.xtra.co.nz...
> >
> > "S McElvanney" <simonmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:yH%a8.70428$H37.9258703@news2-
> > >
> > > Gi, you couldn't outwitt a stuffed aardvark.
> >
> > Let's assume that's true. That would make you less witty than a stuffed
> > aardvark. Not the smartist move.
>
>
> I fail to see you logic...
why doesn't that surprise me.
Aristeia
> >
> Don't you evey post anything funy or worth readiing?
Oh no, Simon's starting to comment on my posts. To undermine my comments
and make me feel worthless. Surely I must soon give up posting all
together, disheartened by his withering attacks.
Heh