Silat Serak, William Sanders, Vic DeThouars, Naqshbandis, Islam
Manuel
Selamat and Hormat. I wanted to make sure my message was posted with
enough subject links to be hit by anyone who had anything to search
for in the following subjects.
I'm posting this because I've seen a lot of bickering back and forth
between the DeThouars/Dutch-Indo crew and the Sanders crew and I
thought I might add my own personal experiences and knowledge to this.
There are several students out there of the Dutch - Indo groups who
slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
they also don't approve.
First of all, let's get some things straight.
Pendekar William Sanders has NEVER made any slanderous comments
against Islam or Muslims. We have gurus in the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka
lineage who are traditional Muslims, as a matter of fact.
Now, let me tell you of my own little experience with Pak Victor
DeThouars and Mr. Tim Lucas last year.
In August or October of 2002 I had the chance to go up to NW
Pennsylvania to do a seminar with Pak Victor deThouars of the Serak
lineage. On the first day, I overheard Pak Vic talking about guns
with Tim Lucas' brother-in-law, who was told by Pak Vic that his
favorite weapon of choice was his 7mm high - powered rifle because "I
use it to pick off the Muslims at a thousand yards. Ha ha." My jaw
dropped, and that wasn't the end of it. During lunch he made the
comment that he was glad there were pork and beans because Muslims
couldn't eat pork and beans and "ha ha" again. But it gets better.
Pak Vic asked me at one point which country had the best martial arts,
and before I could answer I was told that "America does. We do. Do
you know why?" I replied that it was because we had the best martial
artists in the world, but Pak Vic corrected me: "No sir, because we
have THE BOMB." Gee, what an enlightening thought -- equating
spirituality and martial arts with weapons of mass destruction.
Really mentally healthy and inspiring.
On the second day of the seminar, during lunch, I was talking to Pak
Vic and mentioned that I hoped to someday go to Indonesia and train
with the silat masters, Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
yes sir, I am." The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
and this is how it was returned. Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
Muslims -- the extremists. I'll say it now and I've said it a
thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
attitude. Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
There was one big young man with glasses who patted me on the shoulder
after the whole argument and shook his head as if to say, "Don't
worry, it's just the way he is." God bless him for his kindness. I
didn't dare leave because after all of that, I half expected Pak Vic
to send someone after me to kill me on the way home. I literally
thought he was going to take me out back to butcher me after sending
the others back from the log cabin to the gym next to it. I've never
seen such hatred in someone's eyes for someone he doesn't even know.
Pak Vic didn't let up. During the finish of the seminar he made the
comment that "If I had been on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have
NEVER done it!" and later on some other comment about "If they want to
go to ALLAH, I'll send them to ALLAH!" That was before pointing out
to others that I was a Muslim and that he unfortunately had to respect
that (respect???) because it was written in the Constitution. In
other words, if there was no law, I probably wouldn't be alive today.
And at another point in time, he pulled me over to tell me that he was
going to be watching me closely and was going to profile me because I
was a "MOO - SLEM." He made smartass remarks about my being in
Security and made me feel completely out of place. My religion was
slandered, I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
threatened. Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat. When I commented
that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
and hormat, right?
Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies. One of my best friends, Tim
M. Stone, works for the Bureau and I told him my whole experience
within two days' return back to the DC area. By the way, the two top
FBI agents on the Osama Bin Laden Research Team are American Muslims,
so you know what you can do with your profiling and "you can't go into
OCS" crap. And all of you Laryngitis/Serak players out there trying
to talk about the so-called adat and hormat of your great teacher,
save it. I've met the man and I know the truth.
I did not give up and went on to find a legitimate silat teacher, Guru
Russ Wilson of the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka lineage. Guru Besar Jak
Othman, a highly respected traditional Silat player from Malaysia says
of our lineage that it is "AUTHENTIC!" -- his exact words. And all
this talk of the poor, helpless Dutch - Indos being the victims of the
evil racism of those mean Indonesians (and this is why they don't have
any legit lineage, right?) -- that's crap. If the Indonesians were so
racist, what's William Sanders doing as a Pendekar accepted and
certified by the Indonesians themselves???
The TRUTH is that the Dutch were virtually the slave - masters of the
Indonesians and inter-married with only the "high - caste" Indonesians
who effectively gave up their own culture and adopted the Dutch
culture, including the religion of Christianity. Traditional
Indonesians are not Christian, they are mostly Muslim. The remainder
are largely Hindus and Buddhists, all with an element of shamanism.
The Dutch - Indos were asked to leave because during the war for
Independence they sided with the Enemy, the Dutch; the slave -
masters. During our war for Independence, the Torries were butchered
and tortured -- tarred and feathered. I'd say the Dutch - Indos got
off pretty easy by comparison, so don't cry about it. Sorry folks,
that's the sad truth.
As for the students of the DeThouars' brothers, the brothers
themselves are all locked into a seemingly endless strand of
contradictions and slanders against each other. All I have to say is
"Thank God that's not my family." You guys may talk and talk and talk
about the metaphysical aspects of silat, but NONE of you know them.
Fact. Most of our magickal invocations are sacred Islamic du'as
anyway. They're prayers which have metaphysical effects, simple as
that. The remainder are from Kejawan -- the shamanistic mysticism,
which is like a pre-Muhammadan Islamic mysticism anyway. And with
these key facts in place, I'm off. Selamat and Hormat to all who
deserve it and are TRUE silat players -- tempering their hearts and
minds as well as their bodies.
Bill
>
>First of all, let's get some things straight.
>
Sure, you could start with your name!
Perk
Caterbro
> On the second day of the seminar, during lunch, I was talking to Pak
> Vic and mentioned that I hoped to someday go to Indonesia and train
> with the silat masters, Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
> there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
> you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
> yes sir, I am." The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
> to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
> and this is how it was returned. Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
> Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
> religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
> I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
> with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
> OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
> Muslims -- the extremists. I'll say it now and I've said it a
> thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
> Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
> and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
> the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
> attitude. Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
> this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
> WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
that's such a tricky situation. the natural instinct to combat him on the issue,
but then you have to worry about, not so much what he's going to say or do-
you know his position-but what the people around you are going to do. as a
guest in the house, as a student at the event, your situation is partly in the
hands of the organizers, you are de facto outnumbered and the key issue
becomes what the other people are going to do about it.
I don't really see too, too, much of a problem with the man having a dustup
with a guest, and as a student, you are at the very least beholden to listen
to him, thought certainly not to the extent of being degraded by him.
after all, he's protected and empowered by his superior position and his
family and friends in immediate area- its not honorable to abuse that position.
> I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
> threatened. Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat. When I commented
> that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
> Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
> wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
> Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
> on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
> and hormat, right?
>
> Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
> vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies.
the FBI are not a real good friend to anybody. they are no respecter of
life or liberty or the law. I don't think getting offended at a seminar is
sufficient reason to bring their baleful atentions on somebody. on the
other hand, you just proved that your martial arts is better than Victor
DeThouars, by his own logic. :)
Carl
kalis
You have to cut Pak Vic a little slack - he gets excited sometimes.
Par for the course.
<g>
Mike
Chas
> I'm posting this because I've seen a lot of bickering back and forth
> between the DeThouars/Dutch-Indo crew and the Sanders crew and I
> thought I might add my own personal experiences and knowledge to this.
How much history do you have there?
I remember all of it really well; do you?
> There are several students out there of the Dutch - Indo groups who
> slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
> and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
> others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
> they also don't approve.
Bill was a charlatan and poseur long before anyone called attention to
his bogus ideas of Jewish Kaballism as applied to shamanistic magic.
He *is* a quack; and a presumptuous opportunistic quack to boot.
> First of all, let's get some things straight.
You mean like your identity?
You're about to say some pretty ugly things, with little or no
knowledge of the subject, and you want to do it anonymously, and yet
claim adat of hormat.
Bad show, bunky.
> Pendekar William Sanders has NEVER made any slanderous comments
> against Islam or Muslims. We have gurus in the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka
> lineage who are traditional Muslims, as a matter of fact.
He *has* however made slanderous comments about people other than
muslims- if in fact he missed them somehow.
> ......On the first day, I overheard Pak Vic talking about guns
> with Tim Lucas' brother-in-law, who was told by Pak Vic that his
> favorite weapon of choice was his 7mm high - powered rifle because "I
> use it to pick off the Muslims at a thousand yards. Ha ha." My jaw
> dropped, and that wasn't the end of it.
Which part bothered you; the choice of weapon, the choice of target,
or the claim of marksmanship?
I don't think he shoots that well, personally- a thousand yards is a
long old way, even if the guy has a white bedsheet tied around his
head sitting up on a rock waiting to ambush infidels.
> During lunch he made the
> comment that he was glad there were pork and beans because Muslims
> couldn't eat pork and beans and "ha ha" again. But it gets better.
Ah; a scary reference to the dreaded 'Pigshit Bomb', hitherto a secret
known only to our highest leaders.
Are you accusing him of giving classified information to the enemy?
> .....Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
> there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
> you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
> yes sir, I am."
Good plan.
The muslims are busily murdering off everybody who's not muslim, so
you'll be safe unless they just see you as a chump-
A scary proposition from all indications.
> The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
> to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
> and this is how it was returned.
'Mysteriously devoid of'?
You claim the religion of his enemies and wonder that he looks at you
a little balefully?
quelle surprise.
> Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
> Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
> religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
> I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
> with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
> OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
> Muslims -- the extremists.
Actually, you take your place with a religion that is at war on every
border it shares with any person practicing anything but
Mohammedanism.
> I'll say it now and I've said it a
> thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
> Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
> and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
> the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
> attitude.
An attitude enjoyed in the United States- wherein Islamists of various
disciplines don't carry forward the fights they have between
themselves in their own homelands. You enjoy the Pax Americana and can
practice your faith more freely than in any of the cultures of origin.
Praise Jesus, hunh?
> Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
> this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
> WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
bin Laden's stated purpose was to protest infidel troops on the sacred
holy land of Islam- which presumptively includes everything they've
conquered in 1500 years, or can see from where they're standing
presently.
> There was one big young man with glasses who patted me on the shoulder
> after the whole argument and shook his head as if to say, "Don't
> worry, it's just the way he is." God bless him for his kindness.
You wouldn't have got the same forbearance in a Muslim venue.
> I
> didn't dare leave because after all of that, I half expected Pak Vic
> to send someone after me to kill me on the way home.
Oh poop.
The muslims have threatened Pak Vic- as well as me and my family, for
no other reason than teaching a 'muslim' art to infidels. I, and my
family, have been threatened *in the name of Islam* on numerous
occasions.
> I literally
> thought he was going to take me out back to butcher me after sending
> the others back from the log cabin to the gym next to it. I've never
> seen such hatred in someone's eyes for someone he doesn't even know.
Do you remember when his friend Bill Chang (U'un Surya) was killed by
the muslim mob; and the mans' son and his son-in-law? Just a couple of
years ago?
Do you remember as Sukarno came to power, as a muslim, and
nationalized private property of Indonesian citizens? Exiled the ones
he didn't kill outright? In the name of Islam?
> Pak Vic didn't let up. During the finish of the seminar he made the
> comment that "If I had been on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have
> NEVER done it!" and later on some other comment about "If they want to
> go to ALLAH, I'll send them to ALLAH!" That was before pointing out
> to others that I was a Muslim and that he unfortunately had to respect
> that (respect???) because it was written in the Constitution.
Yep; toleration doesn't imply endorsement.
> In
> other words, if there was no law, I probably wouldn't be alive today.
Could well be true.
Or if it was Sharia, you'd be alive, but Victor wouldn't.
> And at another point in time, he pulled me over to tell me that he was
> going to be watching me closely and was going to profile me because I
> was a "MOO - SLEM." He made smartass remarks about my being in
> Security and made me feel completely out of place. My religion was
> slandered, I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
> threatened.
Yup.
No reason to ignore 1500 years of history just to keep from hurting
your little feelers.
The Constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to be popular.
> Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat.
You were treated in adat of hormat.
Rigorously.
And you really don't care to contemplate the affect of *not* being
under adat.
> When I commented
> that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
> Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
> wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
> Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
> on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
> and hormat, right?
Absolutely.
You were given the courtesy of an enemy in a neutral venue.
> Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
> vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies.
So you figured you'd switch arenas and attack him from a distance,
through the FBI?
Geez, kid; you may be thinking about that one for a long time.
> One of my best friends, Tim
> M. Stone, works for the Bureau and I told him my whole experience
> within two days' return back to the DC area.
Special Agent Tim M. Stone of the DC Federal Bureau of Investigation
received your information about Victor de Thouars being a possible
'vigilante' with 'anti-Islamic tendencies'?
Oh yeah; good plan, lad.
>......And all of you Laryngitis/Serak players out there trying
> to talk about the so-called adat and hormat of your great teacher,
> save it. I've met the man and I know the truth.
Ah; referral to Sanders' insults from some years ago.
Uncle Bill told me; 'Sanders got his credentials off of a vege-table
cart, in the street.'
Sanders is an inept clown surrounded by his natural followers; Darwin
in action.
> I did not give up and went on to find a legitimate silat teacher, Guru
> Russ Wilson of the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka lineage.
hahahahahahaha
whatta parade of bozos; pity it's not set to music, we could dance.
> Guru Besar Jak
> Othman, a highly respected traditional Silat player from Malaysia says
> of our lineage that it is "AUTHENTIC!" -- his exact words.
You don't even understand what a faint endorsement he gave you- if, in
fact, he had anything other than politeness' because you were feeding
him.
> And all
> this talk of the poor, helpless Dutch - Indos being the victims of the
> evil racism of those mean Indonesians (and this is why they don't have
> any legit lineage, right?) -- that's crap.
Son; you don't even *suspect* what you're talking about.
> If the Indonesians were so
> racist, what's William Sanders doing as a Pendekar accepted and
> certified by the Indonesians themselves???
hahahahahahahaha
Sanders couldn't play the pennywhistle as the bozo parade walked by
looking for him- he's a joke.
> The TRUTH is that the Dutch were virtually the slave - masters of the
> Indonesians and inter-married with only the "high - caste" Indonesians
> who effectively gave up their own culture and adopted the Dutch
> culture, including the religion of Christianity. Traditional
> Indonesians are not Christian, they are mostly Muslim.
Islam was a latecomer, and arrived at the point of a sword.
> The remainder
> are largely Hindus and Buddhists, all with an element of shamanism.
All of those religions, and Christianity, pre-date Islam.
Reference 'Moghul Empire' for some of the specifics; incredibly brutal
and oppressive time.
> The Dutch - Indos were asked to leave because during the war for
> Independence they sided with the Enemy, the Dutch; the slave -
> masters. During our war for Independence, the Torries were butchered
> and tortured -- tarred and feathered. I'd say the Dutch - Indos got
> off pretty easy by comparison, so don't cry about it. Sorry folks,
> that's the sad truth.
So you endorse the slave camps, mass murders, confiscation of assets
and expulsion of the survivors?
Typically muslim attitude.
And you wonder why people don't trust you, accept you, or look forward
to training with you?
> As for the students of the DeThouars' brothers, the brothers
> themselves are all locked into a seemingly endless strand of
> contradictions and slanders against each other. All I have to say is
> "Thank God that's not my family."
Aww; it's all in good fun.
I signed up to learn to fight- and, God Love them, I sure got my
chance.
> You guys may talk and talk and talk
> about the metaphysical aspects of silat, but NONE of you know them.
You mean as opposed to the watered down, misunderstood, redaction of
Jewish magic that Sanders tries to foist off as silat magic?
hahahahahahahaha
> Fact. Most of our magickal invocations are sacred Islamic du'as
> anyway. They're prayers which have metaphysical effects, simple as
> that. The remainder are from Kejawan -- the shamanistic mysticism,
> which is like a pre-Muhammadan Islamic mysticism anyway. And with
> these key facts in place, I'm off.
It's bad Kaballah, sifted through Sanders' opportunism and rich
fantasy life- similar to his silat.
> Selamat and Hormat to all who
> deserve it and are TRUE silat players -- tempering their hearts and
> minds as well as their bodies.
You too, sparky.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403 (Denver area)
Jim Clayman
> > to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> > his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> > drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> > which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
> > and this is how it was returned.
>
> 'Mysteriously devoid of'?
> You claim the religion of his enemies and wonder that he looks at you
> a little balefully?
> quelle surprise.
Chas, maybe im just dumb, but your humor can go over my head somtimes.
Are you being sarcastic?
This guy is not a terrorist, why does he deserve that treatment?
If you claim religion can be associated with an enemy can race be? Can
arabs be the "enemy race" and treated accordingly?
not...@email.com
Pak Vic said his RELIGION (Islam) was the religion of his (Pak Vic) enemies.
I'm sure you could condemn Pak Vic for religious intolerance, but that
hardly calls for the "RACECARD" to be played.
"Jim Clayman" <clayma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aa3a6b57.0302...@posting.google.com...
Chas
> .......
> > 'Mysteriously devoid of'?
> > You claim the religion of his enemies and wonder that he looks at you
> > a little balefully?
> > quelle surprise.
> Chas, maybe im just dumb, but your humor can go over my head somtimes.
> Are you being sarcastic?
No.
I'm not surprised that he was treated as he was.
> This guy is not a terrorist, why does he deserve that treatment?
Actually, he seemed to favor the Islamic political line pretty
closely- as with the expulsion of the Dutch Indos.
> If you claim religion can be associated with an enemy can race be?
Sure.
> Can
> arabs be the "enemy race" and treated accordingly?
Sure.
Anybody can declare themselves your enemy- for any reason or none. You
have no control over it, it is their choice. They can pick the reason,
what will satisfy their aggression, who their enemy is and why.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403 (Denver area)
http://www.chasclements.com (leatherwork)
http://www.chasclements.com/WebPromo1.avi (martial art)
http://www.chasclements.com/WebPromo1.mpg (weapons)
http://www.chasclements.com/KTS/index.html (articles, photos)
http://www.kuntaosilat.com (videos and gear)
Chas
> ....
> I'm sure you could condemn Pak Vic for religious intolerance,
He was completely 'tolerant'.
Far more tolerant than if the roles had been reversed.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403 (Denver area)
Caterbro
> Actually, he seemed to favor the Islamic political line pretty
> closely- as with the expulsion of the Dutch Indos.
anti-colonialism is Islamic? I thought it was universal.
> > If you claim religion can be associated with an enemy can race be?
>
> Sure.
>
> > Can
> > arabs be the "enemy race" and treated accordingly?
>
> Sure.
> Anybody can declare themselves your enemy- for any reason or none. You
> have no control over it, it is their choice. They can pick the reason,
> what will satisfy their aggression, who their enemy is and why.
This is an old way of thinking, from the last era. i really believe this. all
you old warriors get so used to a man standing for a cause that it never
occurs to you that religion can be philosophical, politics can be small
and common ground can be riven between any member of the human race.
doesn't help to have a bunch of kids around all the time telling him
how his shit doesn't stink and hanging on his every word. makes an old
man lazy and that's a fact.
Carl
Chas
> ........
> > Actually, he seemed to favor the Islamic political line pretty
> > closely- as with the expulsion of the Dutch Indos.
> anti-colonialism is Islamic? I thought it was universal.
The imposition of Islam is Islamic. 'Anti-colonialism' was incidental.
The Dutch were already expelled, the Japanese were defeated. Sukarno
stepped into the power vacuum and instituted a despotic rule-
particularly harshly exercised over non-muslims.
Muslims, operating as a religious force, have murdered *thousands*
because of their religion, or simply for being not immediately
identifiable as muslims- as with Melanesians, New Guineans, Balinese,
Chinese and 'Christians'. They make war on *everyone* not of their
faith.
> This is an old way of thinking, from the last era. i really believe this. all
> you old warriors get so used to a man standing for a cause that it never
> occurs to you that religion can be philosophical, politics can be small
> and common ground can be riven between any member of the human race.
That is all irrelevant to an enemy choosing *you* out.
You have no say in your enemy's choice.
We 'old warriors' get old by recognizing an enemy immediately and not
questioning his motivation, only his actions. I *assume* that he
thinks he's chosen by God- otherwise, he wouldn't come fucking with me
in the first place.
> doesn't help to have a bunch of kids around all the time telling him
> how his shit doesn't stink and hanging on his every word. makes an old
> man lazy and that's a fact.
Nah.
Victor's got good reason not to like them- and no reason to do
anything but tolerate them. You may have to let the neonazi's march
through Skokie, but you're not required to cheer them on or serve
canapés.
The poster, Manuel, claimed his portal to Islam through Sufism. One
might do well to remember that in many Islamic lands/sects, Sufi's are
considered heretics, and treated abominably. He should be happy that
his conversion didn't happen in any other part of the world- it would
not have been accorded hormat under adat.
not...@email.com
other religions in most strict Islamic countries.
Hell the friggin' Taliban couldn't ever stand for statues of another
religion in Afganistan.
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.net> wrote in message
news:3E59A0C5...@attbi.net...
Caterbro
> The imposition of Islam is Islamic. 'Anti-colonialism' was incidental.
> The Dutch were already expelled, the Japanese were defeated. Sukarno
> stepped into the power vacuum and instituted a despotic rule-
who was then deposed by the CIA and replaced by a man who might have
commited the worst massacre of a population in history (neck and neck with
Rwanda). no point- just the irony i love.:)
> > This is an old way of thinking, from the last era. i really believe this. all
> > you old warriors get so used to a man standing for a cause that it never
> > occurs to you that religion can be philosophical, politics can be small
> > and common ground can be riven between any member of the human race.
>
> That is all irrelevant to an enemy choosing *you* out.
sure- in the situation at hand, VDT choose this shmuck for an enemy and
won't hear anything else. terrible manners.
> You have no say in your enemy's choice.
> We 'old warriors' get old by recognizing an enemy immediately and not
> questioning his motivation, only his actions. I *assume* that he
> thinks he's chosen by God- otherwise, he wouldn't come fucking with me
> in the first place.
who was fucking with who? bad manners to gloat over some little dude who's
shelled out dough to be in your presence, behaved under an onus (no idea
what adat and hormat imply) and suffered his religion and his person to be
impugned.
> > doesn't help to have a bunch of kids around all the time telling him
> > how his shit doesn't stink and hanging on his every word. makes an old
> > man lazy and that's a fact.
>
> Nah.
> Victor's got good reason not to like them- and no reason to do
> anything but tolerate them.
that's what i'm saying- in this enlightened world, a man is more than
his religion, should he so choose- only a lazy man can't be bothered
to look past labels to actions.
>You may have to let the neonazi's march
> through Skokie, but you're not required to cheer them on or serve
> canapés.
> The poster, Manuel, claimed his portal to Islam through Sufism. One
> might do well to remember that in many Islamic lands/sects, Sufi's are
> considered heretics, and treated abominably. He should be happy that
> his conversion didn't happen in any other part of the world- it would
> not have been accorded hormat under adat.
so, good job beating up on a kid who was part of a embattled minority
anyway, and likely not a part of whatever it is VDT has against muslims.
redoubled prejudice and bad manners. tsk.
carl
Chas
>
> That's why I said could, and we needn't talk about what happens to people of
> other religions in most strict Islamic countries.
It's certainly novel that they would assert a claim of discrimination
and insult when they have no cultural history of extending the same
courtesies in their own countries.
> Hell the friggin' Taliban couldn't ever stand for statues of another
> religion in Afganistan.
Muslims have some *very* strict ideas on acceptable art, or thought,
or any other expression not specifically vetted 1500 years go.
Jim Clayman
> Pak Vic said his RELIGION (Islam) was the religion of his (Pak Vic) enemies.
> I'm sure you could condemn Pak Vic for religious intolerance, but that
> hardly calls for the "RACECARD" to be played.
Im not saying he was being racist, im just questioning the logic.
If there can be a "enemy religion" why cant there be a "enemy race"?
Its the same idea; stereotyping a certain group.
The enemies are muslim arabs correct?
Steve Gartin
You know, being a certain kind of religious *outcast* myself, I have a lot
of tolerance for any religious belief any man holds with convictiion and
integrity. Forget the disagreements for a moment - and let me tell you that
going to the cops, = the FBI = is inexcusable. People have to get over
*calling the cops.* The *cops* are predominately NOT OUR FRIENDS. I have
lived with Victor de Thouars and I adore the man, but I am not blind to his
prejudices. I believe his *good* FAR outweighs his bad. Having seen,
first-hand, the seamy side of our government, and the terrible damage *they*
can wreck - I take great offense that someone would *report* Pak Vic to the
authorities and forever smear his name and honor for being UltraAmerican, as
he conceives it.
I too, read the Holy Qur'an on a regular basis - as well as the JW Bible,
the Book of Morman, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, Plato and the New
Testament and see our Creator's light in all of those writings. I'm
saddened that we cannot all come to the understanding that we are ALL
together in this LIFE - but I cannot condone people going to the cops with
*mind crimes.*
Pak Vic may have been out of line in his exuberance for his adopted
country - but the kid going to the FBI is inexcusable by any standard.
Several of my students met William Sanders when he came to Colorado. All of
them concurred that he was inept, incompetent and a charlatan.
Besides, magick doesn't work on me.
Just my opinion,
Steve Gartin - Free (and really grateful for it) :-)>
www.kuntaosilat.com
"Caterbro" <cate...@fingol.com> wrote in message
news:nxdW+$O...@netnews.attbi.com...
Manuel
> Manuel wrote:
> > I'm posting this because I've seen a lot of bickering back and forth
> > between the DeThouars/Dutch-Indo crew and the Sanders crew and I
> > thought I might add my own personal experiences and knowledge to this.
>
> How much history do you have there?
> I remember all of it really well; do you?
I've read all of the posts sent in back and forth, so yes. I also
remember the conversations we had a couple of years ago, which you
have not, sir.
>
> > There are several students out there of the Dutch - Indo groups who
> > slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
> > and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
> > others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
> > they also don't approve.
>
> Bill was a charlatan and poseur long before anyone called attention to
> his bogus ideas of Jewish Kaballism as applied to shamanistic magic.
> He *is* a quack; and a presumptuous opportunistic quack to boot.
Pendekar Sanders was acknowledged as a Guru in Pencak Silat by Guru
Besar John Malterer, a direct student of Willy Wetzel, long before he
even went to Indonesia and was personally certified there as a more
advanced Guru and eventually Pendekar. As for Jewish Kabbalism meets
Shamanistic Magick, I believe that Pendekar Sanders' point is that
there is one common Source of Creation (i.e. God) and that there are
various formulae for accessing the blessings of this Source. He uses
the term "magick" for accessing the power of this Source because by
the Western Esoteric Tradition's definition, it fits rather well.
There is nothing bogus about that.
>
> > First of all, let's get some things straight.
>
> You mean like your identity?
Think about it, sir. My name is Manuel. My email is
Manuel_...@yahoo.com I'll let you figure out the rest for
yourself. It's not too difficult.
> You're about to say some pretty ugly things, with little or no
> knowledge of the subject, and you want to do it anonymously, and yet
> claim adat of hormat.
> Bad show, bunky.
My name's not Bunky. You seem to try to make up for your lack of fact
with base insults. What I did was this: I gave facts about a very
nasty and prejudiced treatment by your beloved teacher, who has some
very serious personality issues. Additionally, I presented some
opinions of my own which were supported by historical fact.
>
> > Pendekar William Sanders has NEVER made any slanderous comments
> > against Islam or Muslims. We have gurus in the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka
> > lineage who are traditional Muslims, as a matter of fact.
>
> He *has* however made slanderous comments about people other than
> muslims- if in fact he missed them somehow.
That argument was started by your camp, sir, not his. He only
defended himself to each and every assault leveled at him.
>
> > ......On the first day, I overheard Pak Vic talking about guns
> > with Tim Lucas' brother-in-law, who was told by Pak Vic that his
> > favorite weapon of choice was his 7mm high - powered rifle because "I
> > use it to pick off the Muslims at a thousand yards. Ha ha." My jaw
> > dropped, and that wasn't the end of it.
>
> Which part bothered you; the choice of weapon, the choice of target,
> or the claim of marksmanship?
> I don't think he shoots that well, personally- a thousand yards is a
> long old way, even if the guy has a white bedsheet tied around his
> head sitting up on a rock waiting to ambush infidels.
I remember a talk with you by phone in which you spoke of Sheikh
Shamsuddin of the Silat Seni Gayong group as a "very holy man...so it
isn't a problem with the religion..." It's nice to see your true
colors come out. Thanks.
>
> > During lunch he made the
> > comment that he was glad there were pork and beans because Muslims
> > couldn't eat pork and beans and "ha ha" again. But it gets better.
>
> Ah; a scary reference to the dreaded 'Pigshit Bomb', hitherto a secret
> known only to our highest leaders.
> Are you accusing him of giving classified information to the enemy?
Once again you show your true colors as well as your level of
maturity.
>
> > .....Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
> > there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
> > you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
> > yes sir, I am."
>
> Good plan.
> The muslims are busily murdering off everybody who's not muslim, so
> you'll be safe unless they just see you as a chump-
> A scary proposition from all indications.
Actually, that's a load of crap. My mother's best friend, Bea, is
Dutch and lived in Indonesia for a few years. She was treated very
well and in her words the Indonesians are "beautiful people." They
revered her ability as a mid-wife and invited her to village meetings.
And yes, they were Muslims. And thanks for the insult, thrice now
you have thrown insults at me, and I have not returned them.
>
> > The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
> > to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> > his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> > drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> > which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
> > and this is how it was returned.
>
> 'Mysteriously devoid of'?
> You claim the religion of his enemies and wonder that he looks at you
> a little balefully?
> quelle surprise.
For a man to claim that any of the world's Faiths is "the religion of
my enemy" is a sign of high ignorance and bigotry. I hate no
religion. I find idiots among each of the world's great faiths, but
the teachings of each founder were not about abuse of others' rights
-- quite the opposite, in fact.
>
> > Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
> > Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
> > religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
> > I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
> > with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
> > OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
> > Muslims -- the extremists.
>
> Actually, you take your place with a religion that is at war on every
> border it shares with any person practicing anything but
> Mohammedanism.
The term "Mohammedanism" is one of ignorance, used by the ignorant.
We have never worshipped the Prophet, Mohammed, peace be upon him. He
is the seal of 124,000 Prophets, beginning with the first Adam. The
term "Islam" itself denotes the basic idea of "Submission" (it's
literal translation) to the Source of Creation and by our definition,
begins with the Creation itself.
>
> > I'll say it now and I've said it a
> > thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
> > Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
> > and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
> > the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
> > attitude.
>
> An attitude enjoyed in the United States- wherein Islamists of various
> disciplines don't carry forward the fights they have between
> themselves in their own homelands. You enjoy the Pax Americana and can
> practice your faith more freely than in any of the cultures of origin.
> Praise Jesus, hunh?
I am a Muslim, not an "Islamist," and my homeland is here, in the US.
The fights that exist between different factions of all kinds of
people in developing countries due to poverty and chaos are hardly
unique to only those poor nations wherein Muslims happen to be the
majority. In our own country, among the "Pax Americana," we have
children shooting children in schools. You don't see that anywhere
else in the world. I do, however, love this country as do most
American Muslims. And if your wish was to try to make me react by
prejudice, you've failed miserably -- again.
>
> > Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
> > this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
> > WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
>
> bin Laden's stated purpose was to protest infidel troops on the sacred
> holy land of Islam- which presumptively includes everything they've
> conquered in 1500 years, or can see from where they're standing
> presently.
Bin Laden is a highly dysfunctional man with a murderous rage which
has been activated. I despise him. As for your obvious reference to
the mistaken attitude that Islam was somehow forced upon the majority
of the lands in which it is the central Religious Faith, I will
address that ignorance at the end of this response, fear not.
>
> > There was one big young man with glasses who patted me on the shoulder
> > after the whole argument and shook his head as if to say, "Don't
> > worry, it's just the way he is." God bless him for his kindness.
>
> You wouldn't have got the same forbearance in a Muslim venue.
An opinion stemming from your ignorance, which can be understood in
that light.
>
> > I
> > didn't dare leave because after all of that, I half expected Pak Vic
> > to send someone after me to kill me on the way home.
>
> Oh poop.
> The muslims have threatened Pak Vic- as well as me and my family, for
> no other reason than teaching a 'muslim' art to infidels. I, and my
> family, have been threatened *in the name of Islam* on numerous
> occasions.
"The Muslims" have threatened? That's pretty funny. A Religion of
over one billion people and you talk about us as if we were all in a
clubhouse that had made repeated prank calls. Sir, grow up. If a few
misguided idiots called you and happened to be Muslims, that hardly
speaks for a billion people worldwide. I don't go around blaming
Christianity for a few misguided idiots blowing up abortion clinics.
>
> > I literally
> > thought he was going to take me out back to butcher me after sending
> > the others back from the log cabin to the gym next to it. I've never
> > seen such hatred in someone's eyes for someone he doesn't even know.
>
> Do you remember when his friend Bill Chang (U'un Surya) was killed by
> the muslim mob; and the mans' son and his son-in-law? Just a couple of
> years ago?
> Do you remember as Sukarno came to power, as a muslim, and
> nationalized private property of Indonesian citizens? Exiled the ones
> he didn't kill outright? In the name of Islam?
As I stated before, idiots of all faiths do actions in the name of
their Faith. It is hardly a phenomenon which occurs only among "The
Muslims." I guess if a Jewish man in a bar happened to get in a fight
with a bunch of people and was jumped, and all of them happened to be
Christians, it would be a "Christian mob" right?
Wherever there is poverty there is chaos, and wherever there is chaos,
there is desperation. Desperation leads to extremism and extremism
leads to violence. This is hardly unique to Islam, but exists all
over the world in any poor nation. Take a trip to the African or
Latin American nations -- the "Christian" nations, for instance. Same
deal. Human nature dictates that people take sides according to
tribal affiliations and these are guided by many things, among them
religion. You really have to move beyond all of this prejudice,
bigotry, and hatred you're exhibiting. Come on now, how old are you?
>
> > Pak Vic didn't let up. During the finish of the seminar he made the
> > comment that "If I had been on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have
> > NEVER done it!" and later on some other comment about "If they want to
> > go to ALLAH, I'll send them to ALLAH!" That was before pointing out
> > to others that I was a Muslim and that he unfortunately had to respect
> > that (respect???) because it was written in the Constitution.
>
> Yep; toleration doesn't imply endorsement.
>
Tolerance implies, among other things, politeness. His remarks were,
at the very least, rude and disrespectful.
> > In
> > other words, if there was no law, I probably wouldn't be alive today.
>
> Could well be true.
> Or if it was Sharia, you'd be alive, but Victor wouldn't.
My ancestral Spain was ruled by TRUE TRADITIONAL Shariah for 700
years. Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived in amicable accord (until
the Moors were expelled and the Inquisition submitted any suspected of
heresy to torture and death). The sciences and arts flourished.
That's historical fact. Get a clue, sir. Or get a copy of Marshall
Hodgson's three volume Magnum Opus, THE VENTURE OF ISLAM.
>
> > And at another point in time, he pulled me over to tell me that he was
> > going to be watching me closely and was going to profile me because I
> > was a "MOO - SLEM." He made smartass remarks about my being in
> > Security and made me feel completely out of place. My religion was
> > slandered, I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
> > threatened.
>
> Yup.
> No reason to ignore 1500 years of history just to keep from hurting
> your little feelers.
> The Constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to be popular.
>
Are you referring to the same history which you've repeatedly ignored
in this posting of yours? As a free citizen who is not a criminal, I
deserve the right to be treated with respect, sir; the same respect
with which I treat all who are in my presence. This has nothing to do
with popularity. Please act according to your age.
> > Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat.
>
> You were treated in adat of hormat.
> Rigorously.
> And you really don't care to contemplate the affect of *not* being
> under adat.
I was treated rudely and disrespectfully because your teacher is not a
true "giver of light," as the term is supposed to mean, but a
prejudiced man who exhibits his hatred of those whom he doesn't
understand as far as the law will allow him to do so. Your
understanding of adat, a word which itself comes from the Arabic
"adab" is mistaken at best.
>
> > When I commented
> > that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
> > Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
> > wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
> > Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
> > on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
> > and hormat, right?
>
> Absolutely.
> You were given the courtesy of an enemy in a neutral venue.
I am no one's enemy except those who attack my friends, family or
myself. If you wish to label me as an enemy simply because my
religion is not the same as yours, then you need some serious
psychological and cross - cultural counseling.
>
> > Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
> > vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies.
>
> So you figured you'd switch arenas and attack him from a distance,
> through the FBI?
> Geez, kid; you may be thinking about that one for a long time.
After walking out of what seemed more like a KKK rally than a martial
arts seminar, yes, I registered a complaint with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, because I don't want to think of what your teacher
would do to some innocent person in a back alley if given half the
chance. And I am happy that I did so, because his prejudices will now
be held in more check.
>
> > One of my best friends, Tim
> > M. Stone, works for the Bureau and I told him my whole experience
> > within two days' return back to the DC area.
>
> Special Agent Tim M. Stone of the DC Federal Bureau of Investigation
> received your information about Victor de Thouars being a possible
> 'vigilante' with 'anti-Islamic tendencies'?
> Oh yeah; good plan, lad.
He's not an agent but an analyst with full clearance, actually. And
he's a brother to me, a man whom I've known for about twelve or
thirteen years. You see, unlike some people, I don't sit around
judging people by their religion.
>
> >......And all of you Laryngitis/Serak players out there trying
> > to talk about the so-called adat and hormat of your great teacher,
> > save it. I've met the man and I know the truth.
>
> Ah; referral to Sanders' insults from some years ago.
> Uncle Bill told me; 'Sanders got his credentials off of a vege-table
> cart, in the street.'
> Sanders is an inept clown surrounded by his natural followers; Darwin
> in action.
Actually, it's a referral to Bahasa Melayu, in which "Serak" is
translated as "Laryngitis." As far as what Mr. Bill DeThouars told
you, he has said worse things about his own brother Victor in closed
circles -- I have close friends who have trained with him -- , so I
can hardly give much thought to that. I've seen recent videos of
Pendekar Sanders in action and his movements are amazingly lucid,
effective, and beautiful...much like the movements of Pendekar Suryadi
Eddie Jaffri and the late Pendekar Herman Suwanda. They make the
movements of your teacher and others in your lineage pale by
comparison. Your teachers talk out of both sides of their mouth, sir.
Pak Vic gives interviews where he talks respectfully of Islam and his
brother Paul in public, as well as Willem. In private, his tone
changes 180 degrees.
>
> > I did not give up and went on to find a legitimate silat teacher, Guru
> > Russ Wilson of the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka lineage.
>
> hahahahahahaha
> whatta parade of bozos; pity it's not set to music, we could dance.
Your level of maturity is evidenced for all to see, thank you.
>
> > Guru Besar Jak
> > Othman, a highly respected traditional Silat player from Malaysia says
> > of our lineage that it is "AUTHENTIC!" -- his exact words.
>
> You don't even understand what a faint endorsement he gave you- if, in
> fact, he had anything other than politeness' because you were feeding
> him.
I understand a lot more than a man who is shut in his set ways and
levels slanders and insults at those whom he does not even know.
Secondly, I have no idea what you mean by "feeding" him. I enquired
sincerely about Pendekar Sanders' legitimacy and his statements were
given. If you want to know exactly what he said, here it is:
"Hope you are enjoying your training under your Cimande pusaka Guru.
Cimande
is one of the olders form of javanese Pencak silat and I have seen
some
of
the stuff from pendekar sanders group. Authentic! One of my student is
his
rep in Ireland."
>
> > And all
> > this talk of the poor, helpless Dutch - Indos being the victims of the
> > evil racism of those mean Indonesians (and this is why they don't have
> > any legit lineage, right?) -- that's crap.
>
> Son; you don't even *suspect* what you're talking about.
And you do? You met the DeThouars brothers, they taught you something
a bit more advanced than all the other Asian arts you had done (which
it was) -- in your words -- they dribbled you around like a "stupid
basketball" and you were hooked. They taught you their version of
history and you believed every bit. You did a little bit of research,
making sure to stick to only those versions which suited your own
teachers' versions, and thus you came away feeling so wise in your own
prejudiced version.
>
> > If the Indonesians were so
> > racist, what's William Sanders doing as a Pendekar accepted and
> > certified by the Indonesians themselves???
>
> hahahahahahahaha
> Sanders couldn't play the pennywhistle as the bozo parade walked by
> looking for him- he's a joke.
Again you resort to childish retorts. The facts speak for themselves.
>
> > The TRUTH is that the Dutch were virtually the slave - masters of the
> > Indonesians and inter-married with only the "high - caste" Indonesians
> > who effectively gave up their own culture and adopted the Dutch
> > culture, including the religion of Christianity. Traditional
> > Indonesians are not Christian, they are mostly Muslim.
>
> Islam was a latecomer, and arrived at the point of a sword.
Islam did not arrive at the point of the sword, that is false. Once
again, I will point you toward Marshall Hodgson's work or of Bernard
Lewis, a Jewish Historian of Islam. The Indonesians adopted the
traditional Islam which included adoption of all previous culture
which did not directly contradict traditional Shariah (as t'was done
in Spain) and they absorbed it into their lives, breathed their own
culture into it, and created a beautiful manifestation of it in
Southeast Asia. The chaotic return of power to the Natives from the
Dutch included extreme actions of vengeance. That they were done in
the name of Islam does not mean that such things are sanctioned in
Islam. They are not. I should know.
The true latecomer was Christianity, in this case, because it arrived
historically with the Europeans who sought repeatedly to wrest control
of trade from the natives. Go to Indonesia and ask the Indonesians
themselves about how "great and friendly" the Dutch were.
>
> > The remainder
> > are largely Hindus and Buddhists, all with an element of shamanism.
>
> All of those religions, and Christianity, pre-date Islam.
> Reference 'Moghul Empire' for some of the specifics; incredibly brutal
> and oppressive time.
There were certain sultans who were brutes in that empire (as with any
empire), this is true. That the entire span of the empire was this
"incredibly brutal and oppressive time" is false. As for
Christianity, it pre-dated Islam in other regions of the planet, not
in SE Asia. Let's be accurate.
>
> > The Dutch - Indos were asked to leave because during the war for
> > Independence they sided with the Enemy, the Dutch; the slave -
> > masters. During our war for Independence, the Torries were butchered
> > and tortured -- tarred and feathered. I'd say the Dutch - Indos got
> > off pretty easy by comparison, so don't cry about it. Sorry folks,
> > that's the sad truth.
>
> So you endorse the slave camps, mass murders, confiscation of assets
> and expulsion of the survivors?
> Typically muslim attitude.
> And you wonder why people don't trust you, accept you, or look forward
> to training with you?
Your teachers endorse the slave plantations, mass murders, and
confiscation of assets of native Indonesians by the Dutch. They
freely admit of being raised on slave plantations......interesting how
it's okay for them to enslave others, but it's not okay for others to
enslave them, don't you think? However, I don't support mass murders
or brutal slavery (even of former abusers)and have never said so. You
are sticking words in my mouth. The mass murders and slavery of Dutch
and Dutch-Indos which resulted was inexcusable but understandable,
given what the Dutch had done to the natives over the years. The
expulsion of those who had sided with the former slave masters during
the war of Independence is something which can hardly be complained
about.
And my "typical Muslim attitude" is that which I have shown you all
along: direct, factual, defensive (not offensive), and tolerant in
the face of prejudice and slander. And for your information, "People"
do trust me, accept me, and look forward to training with me -- as am
I to train with anyone. Most of them happen to be non - Muslims.
Your teacher's hostility and inexcusable rudeness was a first and a
shocker to me.
>
> > As for the students of the DeThouars' brothers, the brothers
> > themselves are all locked into a seemingly endless strand of
> > contradictions and slanders against each other. All I have to say is
> > "Thank God that's not my family."
>
> Aww; it's all in good fun.
> I signed up to learn to fight- and, God Love them, I sure got my
> chance.
I hardly think that the slanders which Paul levelled at Willem on his
website were "good fun" to Willem. The same could be said of the
things I've heard Vic say of Paul and Willem to students off the
record. You won't catch me saying such things about my family -- EVER
-- even if I have just gotten into an argument in private with them.
My grandfather taught me something when I was young -- you don't
display your dirty laundry to strangers. I respect and follow the
codes of chivalry which he instilled in me when I was young, and have
maintained them to this day. And guess what? He wasn't a Muslim
either. Unlike some people, I judge things according to their virtue,
not according to prejudice.
>
> > You guys may talk and talk and talk
> > about the metaphysical aspects of silat, but NONE of you know them.
>
> You mean as opposed to the watered down, misunderstood, redaction of
> Jewish magic that Sanders tries to foist off as silat magic?
> hahahahahahahaha
The basic introduction to Kabbalah given by Pendekar Sanders in his
first book is admittedly that: an introduction. The reason for its
use as a basis of introduction is that the psychology of the
"Judeo-Christian" Westerner finds Kabbalah much more accessible than
Kejawan or Sufism at the beginning of one's metaphysical journey.
However, in private, the recitations and supplications I've been
taught by Guru Russ have been all Islamic.
>
> > Fact. Most of our magickal invocations are sacred Islamic du'as
> > anyway. They're prayers which have metaphysical effects, simple as
> > that. The remainder are from Kejawan -- the shamanistic mysticism,
> > which is like a pre-Muhammadan Islamic mysticism anyway. And with
> > these key facts in place, I'm off.
>
> It's bad Kaballah, sifted through Sanders' opportunism and rich
> fantasy life- similar to his silat.
Qur'anic ayats are not "bad Kabbalah." And the effects which I've
witnessed in person are not illusion. You believe what you want to
believe, I believe what I know.
>
> > Selamat and Hormat to all who
> > deserve it and are TRUE silat players -- tempering their hearts and
> > minds as well as their bodies.
>
> You too, sparky.
I have a name, I don't go around insulting you or levelling derisive
nicknames on you. You have yet to understand the very basic use of
adat and hormat in everyday life, as you have clearly shown here.
And now for what I promised. What I will attach here is a response to
another clear example of a non-Muslim individual's slander of Islam.
It sheds some light on Chas' mis-teachings of my Faith.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Muslim Community of Columbia and Orangeburg are appalled by an
article recently published by Dr. Shingara S. Sandhu, (In the Times &
Democrat: Feb 9, 2003) who is a professor at Claflin University. As a
citizen of the USA he has the right to voice his opinion regarding any
issue he likes. However, his article is full of lies, fabrications and
misleading information. If a professor who has received the SC
Governor’s Professor of the year award (1996) can write an
article which is full of so much hate against Muslims, riddled with so
many lies, unsubstantiated claims and ignorance, then it does not
speaks very highly of an institution which claims to be one of the top
ten in the South. It is unworthy of a university, which was founded to
educate former slaves, and which has stood for justice, peace and
equality for over 130 years, to keep such an individual as a faculty.
We deplore the writing of Dr. Sandhu.
Now let us look at his lies, fabrications and misleading information:
1) He writes, “Al-Qaida is as old as Islam itself.” Anyone
who has a slightest knowledge of the contemporary history knows that
Al-Qaida was established by Osama bin Laden in 1989. The Prophet
Muhammad (may peace be upon him) lived during the seventh century AD.
How Al-Qaida could be as old as Islam! The author of a best selling
book “Taliban” writes, “After the death of Azam in
1989, he (bin Laden) took over Azam’s organization and set up Al
Qaida or Military Base as a service centre for Arab-Afghans and their
families and to forge a broad-based alliance amongst them.”
(Taliban, by Ahmed Rashid, page 132, Yale Univ. Press. 2000).
2) Professor Sandhu writes, “It is understandable that Muslims
in all countries except Saudi Arabia (home of the Prophet Muhammad)
are converts, as they were practicing some other religion prior to
embracing Islam.” There are over 1.3 billion Muslims on the
planet earth and very tiny percentage of these Muslims are converts.
If he means this in an historical context, then all the followers of
Islam were converts, even in Saudi Arabia, where the Prophet was born.
If one looks in a same historic context, then all the Christians,
Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs were initially converts from one faith to
another also.
3) He further writes, “ When a new edition of Webster’s
Dictionary is published, it will include three new words-Taliban,
Al-Qaida and Madrasa.” For a man born in India in 1920s, this is
a surprising statement. Everyone knows that for the last 1400 hundred
years Muslims all around the world called their school Madrasa, and
this is the term in Arabic, Persian and Urdu (a language spoken in
much of India) for school. It is 1400-year-old name or may be older
and it simply means, “place of learning”. If Claflin
University were founded in a Muslim land, it would have been called
“Claflin Madrasa”. The majority of Muslims and the
non-Muslims who are educated in a Muslim nation have attended
Madrasas.
4) Now, let us see how his hate comes out to the fullest,
“…Al-Qaida- as the Prophet Muhammad’s armed struggle
against his enemies, and is used as a pretext to wage a war- kill,
maim, rob, plunder, rape torture, etc-against the
non-believers.”… “Islamic armies were organized
under the command of the Prophet or his followers. Armies fanned out
under the command of his followers, conquering country after country
and forcing loser populations to accept Islam.” Great Islamic
scholars and European Orientalists would tell you that Muslim armies
never force converted anyone. The great Middle East expert, Bernard
Lewis (who is a Jew) writes, that during the golden age of Islam when
Muslims ruled over a large population that included non-Muslim
minorities,“……anti-Jewish polemic was rare, and when
it appeared it was almost always the work of Jewish converts to
Islam.”…. Much the same may be said about Christian
converts, who, because of their greater numbers and importance, had a
far greater impact.” (In Jews of Islam, p86). If force
conversion was true than all the people in India would be Muslim,
including Dr. Sandhu. Muslims ruled India for a thousand years and no
forced conversion is ever recorded in history. In Qur’an (the
Muslim Holy Scripture) God commands, “There is no compulsion in
matter of faith.”(Qur’an 1:257).
5) The Prophet Muhammad's mission has a different outcome than any of
his predecessors. Again, Bernard Lewis writes in his famous book
‘The Middle East’, “There is thus a crucial
difference between the career of Muhammad and those of his
predecessors, Moses and Jesus, as portrayed in the writings of their
followers. Moses was not permitted to enter the promised land, and
died while his people went forward. Jesus was crucified, and
Christianity remained a persecuted minority religion for centuries,
until a Roman emperor, Constantine, embraced the faith and empowered
those who upheld it. Muhammad conquered his promised land, and during
his lifetime achieved victory and power in this world, exercising
political as well as prophetic authority.” (The Middle East,
p53-54).
6) Dr. Sandhu states in his article about the Prophet Muhammad that,
“His life activities appear to indicate that he was more a
warrior than a messenger of peace for starting Islam. Generally he was
not kind to his opponents….The males who refused to convert were
normally butchered. However, the girls, women and young boys were
roped and taken to Arabian countries” These statements go in
direct opposition to what is known historically and scholarly
concerning the life of Muhammad and what is accepted by both Muslim
and non-Muslim historians. The Prophet Muhammad freed and adopted his
own slave Zaid, and males who refused to convert were not butchered. A
few incidents of enslavement and force in this manner may have
occurred after the Prophet Muhammad’s death, but never during
his life or under his command. As well, the Prophet Muhammad was
persecuted throughout his life by people in his own tribe, including
throwing garbage and rocks at him, but he never retaliated against
these people and even showed them compassion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will now take my leave. Selamat.
Caterbro
>
> Pak Vic may have been out of line in his exuberance for his adopted
> country - but the kid going to the FBI is inexcusable by any standard.
i agree with all my heart. the FBI are no friend to any common man.
reporting someone to the law is major juju and EXTREMELY
bad manners. not warranted in this case, by far.
> Besides, magick doesn't work on me.
magic tends to be less effective on those who have been clinically
dead, suffered a great number of life-or-death situations or gone
through a truly mystical experience (equivalent to minor godhead
or prophesy).
I'm betting you fit that to a t.
best,
Carl Brooks
> Just my opinion,
>
> Steve Gartin - Free (and really grateful for it) :-)>
> www.kuntaosilat.com
h
Bill
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I will now take my leave. Selamat.
You still forgot to sign your work!
Perk
Chas
> who was then deposed by the CIA and replaced by a man who might have
> commited the worst massacre of a population in history (neck and neck with
> Rwanda). no point- just the irony i love.:)
Another muslim- with the same generous perception of his populace
we've come to know and love.
The choice wasn't between a 'good politician' and a 'bad dictator'- it
was only 'which' dictator.
> sure- in the situation at hand, VDT choose this shmuck for an enemy and
> won't hear anything else. terrible manners.
Victor voiced his opinion and Nunez stood up to self identify as a
member of the group in question.
> who was fucking with who? bad manners to gloat over some little dude who's
> shelled out dough to be in your presence, behaved under an onus (no idea
> what adat and hormat imply) and suffered his religion and his person to be
> impugned.
Same as if he had shown up at a JDL meeting, or an 'anti-Suharto'
meeting, or anywhere else that identifies him as a member of an
antagonistic group. Jews aren't required to do anything but *tolerate*
nazi's, Israeli's aren't required to do anything but *tolerate*
'Palestinians'; they don't have to be anything except *tolerant*.
> that's what i'm saying- in this enlightened world, a man is more than
> his religion, should he so choose- only a lazy man can't be bothered
> to look past labels to actions.
Your religion determines all sorts of concepts under which one must
'live'.
If the man had stood up and self identified as a 'Christian Identity'
adherent, people would have been well served to consider him by the
light of that self-identification.
> so, good job beating up on a kid who was part of a embattled minority
> anyway, and likely not a part of whatever it is VDT has against muslims.
> redoubled prejudice and bad manners. tsk.
Actually, Nunez has presented the muslim view of DIndos that resulted
in slave camps, mass murders, confiscation and expulsion from their
homes.
Seems like Vic had him pegged after all.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403 (Denver area)
kevin
Hey Steve - first, off, just a congratulation. I thought this post,
the bit I snipped, is a very balanced and fair view of the religious
stuff. I know I've said negative things to you before about how you
presented your views, so it's only fair that I compliment you on this
one. :o)
> Several of my students met William Sanders when he came to Colorado. All of
> them concurred that he was inept, incompetent and a charlatan.
That being said: one of our gang rented one of the William Sanders
videos, and lent it to me before it was due back. Wanted to know what
I thought of it, since I seem to be the guy at the club most
enthousiastic about Silat.
I told her I thought that much of it was familiar, but done horribly -
I thought that the movements were really sloppy. Then, at the end,
there is a form, and I told her that I didn't see any of the
sophisticated power in the movements - they were just movements, and
it looked like he didn't know why he was doing them. For example,
near the end of the form, he has his hands up, and he kind of boogies
them back and forth, like he was crab walking or something - I've seen
video from Chas/Steve with 'Uncle Bill' doing a movement that is
vaguely similar, but when he does it, the hand movements are supported
through the body - power could very obviously be brought to bear. Not
so with Sanders - it's the choreography with none of the
understanding, as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't help it - I
actually laughed out loud.
My friend said "well, I guess, but I don't have anything to compare it
to, so it looks really good to me." So I lent her "Heartless Monkey
knife", and the two Steven Plinck videos that I have; I had to pry the
knife one back, so that I could lend it to someone else, and I still
don't have the other ones back, months later. And she no longer
thinks much of the Sanders video. There is an obvious, immediate
difference in the quality of the movement.
And just by the way, I'm not a Silat student and I have no affiliation
to either Chas/Steve or to guru Plinck, other than I am obviously
impressed by the stuff I've managed to get my hands on. And I'd love
to find a video with the rest of the Silat djurus.... :o)
:o)
Kevin
Steve Gartin
Chas
> I've read all of the posts sent in back and forth, so yes. I also
> remember the conversations we had a couple of years ago, which you
> have not, sir.
You didn't identify yourself as 'Manny Nunez', so I had no reason to
remember you.
Hi Manny!
> Pendekar Sanders was acknowledged as a Guru in Pencak Silat by Guru
> Besar John Malterer, a direct student of Willy Wetzel, long before he
> even went to Indonesia and was personally certified there as a more
> advanced Guru and eventually Pendekar.
Again, being 'acknowledged' is far different from identifying someone
as a student, or of the lineage- it is a social thing, not a 'martial
arts' thing.
You actually have to *read* the certs to understand what's actually
being said.
> As for Jewish Kabbalism meets
> Shamanistic Magick, ....
> There is nothing bogus about that.
Sure there is.
He didn't call the book; 'Jewish magic for martial artists'.
> My name's not Bunky. You seem to try to make up for your lack of fact
> with base insults.
What 'base insult'?
You seem unduly sensitive there, Manny.
'Bunky' is actually an affectionate term for a co-worker; cowboy talk.
> What I did was this: I gave facts about a very
> nasty and prejudiced treatment by your beloved teacher, who has some
> very serious personality issues. Additionally, I presented some
> opinions of my own which were supported by historical fact.
Lots of people don't like muslims, Manny; get used to it.
It's the same as if you stood up and self-identified as a 'Satanist'.
The religion has a 'character', and identifying yourself as having
that 'character' may well put some people 'off'.
It's the same as if you decided to follow the old Nahuatl/Aztec 'way'-
nobody'd trust you around an obsidian knife at the full moon.
> That argument was started by your camp, sir, not his. He only
> defended himself to each and every assault leveled at him.
Actually, he seized the opportunity to make his name by insulting
people, their arts and cultures.
And he couldn't back it up with anything on the floor, so people think
he's a clown. His stuff is so transparently bogus, that I don't know
of anyone who takes him seriously.
His bullshit about the 'council of pendekars' is hilarious. The idea
that he would set up a 'governing board', with himself as poobah, is
side splittingly funny. The idea that he would present as a 'pendekar'
is ridiculous.
> I remember a talk with you by phone in which you spoke of Sheikh
> Shamsuddin of the Silat Seni Gayong group as a "very holy man...so it
> isn't a problem with the religion..." It's nice to see your true
> colors come out. Thanks.
I still don't have any trouble with them; great folks.
And, even Sheikh Sam is looked upon askance by other muslims of
differing sects.
> Actually, that's a load of crap. My mother's best friend, Bea, is
> Dutch and lived in Indonesia for a few years.
So you refute history with one reference to one woman who lived there
for a 'few years'?
What about the other 170,000,000 who have killed *thousands* in the
name of Islam?
> For a man to claim that any of the world's Faiths is "the religion of
> my enemy" is a sign of high ignorance and bigotry.
Really?
Then why are Muslims at war with *everybody*, on the basis of their
religions?
They're fighting with Buddhists, with Hindus, with shamanist/animists,
with Jews, with Christians, and with other muslims who don't follow
precisely the same path.
Are you calling your own Faith a religion of ignorant bigots?
seems curious.
> The fights that exist between different factions of all kinds of
> people in developing countries due to poverty and chaos are hardly
> unique to only those poor nations wherein Muslims happen to be the
> majority.
Except that muslims have been at war, on their own initiative, for
1500 years- hardly a result of 'poverty'.
> In our own country, among the "Pax Americana," we have
> children shooting children in schools.
And in muslim lands, we see children taken into slavery, starved to
death deliberately, murdered when convenient, and setting off suicide
bombs.
You find a parallel there?
> You don't see that anywhere
> else in the world.
You see far worse.
Our 'Columbine Massacre' was an aberration. Palestinian suiciders are
commonplace; moros going amok are pretty common; the 'holy warriors of
Islam' are slavers of children ever since Mohammed sold slaves and
married a child.
> > You wouldn't have got the same forbearance in a Muslim venue.
> An opinion stemming from your ignorance, which can be understood in
> that light.
You're trying to say that muslims are open, tolerant, accepting and
supportive of the freedom of religion?
pull the other one.
> "The Muslims" have threatened? That's pretty funny.
It isn't funny when they threaten to kill your family for teaching a
'muslim' art to infidels- here in the US.
That's 'tolerant' of the 'freedom of religion' as practiced by
islamists everywhere.
> A Religion of
> over one billion people and you talk about us as if we were all in a
> clubhouse that had made repeated prank calls.
You consider death threats to be 'prank calls'?
Funny, you weren't amused when you were chided about 'pork & beans',
but you find 'death threats' to be funny.
> .....If a few
> misguided idiots called you and happened to be Muslims, that hardly
> speaks for a billion people worldwide.
Do I need to get a phone call from each of the 1.2 billion of muslims
to realize that they don't like infidels, and consider me to be one?
> I don't go around blaming
> Christianity for a few misguided idiots blowing up abortion clinics.
Check out the muslim stance on abortion- they don't need to blow up
abortion clinics, their governments will do it for them.
> As I stated before, idiots of all faiths do actions in the name of
> their Faith. It is hardly a phenomenon which occurs only among "The
> Muslims."
Seems to occur often enough to be a hallmark of Islam to come kill
anyone who doesn't agree with them.
> I guess if a Jewish man in a bar happened to get in a fight
> with a bunch of people and was jumped, and all of them happened to be
> Christians, it would be a "Christian mob" right?
If they self-identified, as do muslims; yes.
> Tolerance implies, among other things, politeness. His remarks were,
> at the very least, rude and disrespectful.
Tolerance means that they aren't killed upon identification- nothing
to do with needing 'politeness'.
> My ancestral Spain was ruled by TRUE TRADITIONAL Shariah for 700
> years.
That would be a thousand years ago, right?
So; what have they done lately?
> Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived in amicable accord (until
> the Moors were expelled and the Inquisition submitted any suspected of
> heresy to torture and death). The sciences and arts flourished.
> That's historical fact. Get a clue, sir. Or get a copy of Marshall
> Hodgson's three volume Magnum Opus, THE VENTURE OF ISLAM.
So, you have one instance of one situation, a thousand years ago- and
that's supposed to balance the depredations and warmongering of
muslims everywhere else, anytime else?
Get a clue.
> As a free citizen who is not a criminal, I
> deserve the right to be treated with respect, sir; the same respect
> with which I treat all who are in my presence. This has nothing to do
> with popularity.
You *were* treated with respect.
They didn't kill you, or beat you, or make you eat pork, or require
you to submit and recite that you acknowledge some religion.
Now think how you would have been treated anywhere in the Islamic
Empire for the last 1500 years (except in Spain a thousand years ago).
> I was treated rudely and disrespectfully because your teacher is not a
> true "giver of light,"
'giver of light'?
You expected some sort of religious experience?
Mostly he just teaches people how to fight.
> as the term is supposed to mean, but a
> prejudiced man who exhibits his hatred of those whom he doesn't
> understand as far as the law will allow him to do so.
He understands them all too well, and the only thing required of him
in our country of free speech and free thought is to abide by the law.
> Your
> understanding of adat, a word which itself comes from the Arabic
> "adab" is mistaken at best.
I know that a little adab will do you.
> > Absolutely.
> > You were given the courtesy of an enemy in a neutral venue.
> I am no one's enemy except those who attack my friends, family or
> myself.
Exactly.
The Prophet Mohammed, peat be upon him, said that a preemptive attack
on a city was acceptable, in 'self-defense', as long as they looked
like they might resist being conquered.
And you wonder why people don't trust you guys?
> If you wish to label me as an enemy simply because my
> religion is not the same as yours, then you need some serious
> psychological and cross - cultural counseling.
Oh horseshit.
The Nazi's followed the Norse religion that glorified warfare- the
muslims do the same.
Refraining from trusting someone who follows a warrior religion seems
prudent at the very least.
> After walking out of what seemed more like a KKK rally than a martial
> arts seminar, yes, I registered a complaint with the Federal Bureau of
> Investigation, because I don't want to think of what your teacher
> would do to some innocent person in a back alley if given half the
> chance. And I am happy that I did so, because his prejudices will now
> be held in more check.
So you adhere to the idea of a thought crime- and you'll supply the
'thoughts' yourself?
Yeah- seems like you're running true to form for Islamics.
> > Special Agent Tim M. Stone of the DC Federal Bureau of Investigation
> > received your information about Victor de Thouars being a possible
> > 'vigilante' with 'anti-Islamic tendencies'?
> He's not an agent but an analyst with full clearance, actually. And
> he's a brother to me, a man whom I've known for about twelve or
> thirteen years. You see, unlike some people, I don't sit around
> judging people by their religion.
Sure you do.
I daresay you wouldn't report an anti-Jewish muslim as a possible
terrorist.
Would'ja?
> Actually, it's a referral to Bahasa Melayu, in which "Serak" is
> translated as "Laryngitis."
That would be relevant if 'Serak' were from 'Bahasa Melayu'.
You see, Sukarno was a Bahasa tribesman and imposed his language by
fiat on the other peoples of the Archipelago. There are 3500
languages, 6 religions, 27 ethnic groups on 17,500 islands.
Making an insult out of an accidental homonym is childish- and true to
form for Sanders.
> As far as what Mr. Bill DeThouars told
> you, he has said worse things about his own brother Victor in closed
> circles -- I have close friends who have trained with him -- , so I
> can hardly give much thought to that.
Yeah; they do go on, don't they?
> I've seen recent videos of
> Pendekar Sanders in action
'Recent'?
You mean he's finally getting his shit together?
'Bout time.
> and his movements are amazingly lucid,
> effective, and beautiful...
oooooooh-
nice change.
>.....They make the
> movements of your teacher and others in your lineage pale by
> comparison.
Then why do you guys always get your ass' kicked, and try to learn a
pale shadow of our system?
> Your teachers talk out of both sides of their mouth, sir.
Well DUH.
Not everyone is owed the intimacy of the truth just because they
wander by and ask a question.
> Pak Vic gives interviews where he talks respectfully of Islam and his
> brother Paul in public, as well as Willem. In private, his tone
> changes 180 degrees.
Well DUH.
Their fights are very private in nature, very public in gossip. They
can't go unaddressed, and there's no reason to inform anyone of their
true reasons.
I find their fighting very non-productive- but neither can I fault the
reason for their mutual antagonism.
>....You met the DeThouars brothers, they taught you something
> a bit more advanced than all the other Asian arts you had done (which
> it was) -- in your words -- they dribbled you around like a "stupid
> basketball" and you were hooked.
True dat.
> They taught you their version of
> history and you believed every bit. You did a little bit of research,
> making sure to stick to only those versions which suited your own
> teachers' versions, and thus you came away feeling so wise in your own
> prejudiced version.
bullshit.
I was introduced to Islam twenty years before I met the Family- lived
in North Africa, been to Saudi Arabia, lived in Turkey. I was about
twelve or thirteen when I got the briefing about going to Morocco- and
watching out for the slave traders.
get real.
>......The chaotic return of power to the Natives from the
> Dutch included extreme actions of vengeance. That they were done in
> the name of Islam does not mean that such things are sanctioned in
> Islam. They are not.
Well, that depends on your version of Islam.
> I should know.
Look to 'your own' history as a Sufi for examples of inquisitorial
excess, oppression, torture and murder at the hands of the islamic
mob.
> The true latecomer was Christianity, in this case, because it arrived
> historically with the Europeans who sought repeatedly to wrest control
> of trade from the natives.
The 'natives' had no allegiance to *any* government except their own.
The Sultanate system was at war *everywhere*, controlling 'trade' by
piracy.
The Brits, around 1825 or so, were the ones who kicked the sultanate
out as a function of their wars in the Mid-East and India.
> Go to Indonesia and ask the Indonesians
> themselves about how "great and friendly" the Dutch were.
The Dutch were pretty peaceful and friendly. They tended to do
business and marry into alliances, establish trade and protect their
vessels. Most Indonesians never saw a Dutchman- they tended to stay
within a short distance of their ports, and not to go inland much.
> There were certain sultans who were brutes in that empire (as with any
> empire), this is true. That the entire span of the empire was this
> "incredibly brutal and oppressive time" is false.
Oh yeah; Spain a thousand years ago.
Otherwise, Islam has been a harsh conqueror.
> As for
> Christianity, it pre-dated Islam in other regions of the planet, not
> in SE Asia. Let's be accurate.
Far likelier that Christians traveled the Spice Road before Islam was
even invented.
Both were after Buddhism, Hinduism and both of them after the
shamanist tradition.
> Your teachers endorse the slave plantations, mass murders, and
> confiscation of assets of native Indonesians by the Dutch.
hahahahahahaha
> However, I don't support mass murders
> or brutal slavery (even of former abusers)and have never said so. You
> are sticking words in my mouth.
You have excused them a couple of times now.
> The mass murders and slavery of Dutch
> and Dutch-Indos which resulted was inexcusable but understandable,
> given what the Dutch had done to the natives over the years.
and again.
> The
> expulsion of those who had sided with the former slave masters during
> the war of Independence is something which can hardly be complained
> about.
The Despot was as ruthless to others as to the Eurasians with European
admixture. He treated the Platerans the same way (mixed Indo/Chinese),
the Balinese (Hindu) the same way, the Melanesians the same way
(animists).
And his motivation was religious.
> And my "typical Muslim attitude" is that which I have shown you all
> along: direct, factual, defensive (not offensive), and tolerant in
> the face of prejudice and slander.
It has been insulting, started out that way; supportive of the
warmongering and will to conquer espoused by a warrior religion,
denigrating of the art and it's practitioners-
Yeah; you're running true to form alright.
> And for your information, "People"
> do trust me, accept me, and look forward to training with me -- as am
> I to train with anyone. Most of them happen to be non - Muslims.
> Your teacher's hostility and inexcusable rudeness was a first and a
> shocker to me.
He's probably the only one who has dealt with non-american muslims, in
a country that they control. In fact, *you* probably haven't dealt
with muslims in their own places.
> I hardly think that the slanders which Paul levelled at Willem on his
> website were "good fun" to Willem.
Well, at least they agree about Sanders.
> The same could be said of the
> things I've heard Vic say of Paul and Willem to students off the
> record.
Yeah; three world class martial artists in one family, and a fight
breaks out.
Gosh.
> .....And guess what? He wasn't a Muslim
> either.
Must have been the source of his chivalry and reserve.
> The basic introduction to Kabbalah given by Pendekar Sanders in his
> first book is admittedly that: an introduction.
No; it was touted as the real deal from the mystical pendekars who
taught him by the volcano after initiating him into the secret
traditions of the tribe that recognized his sincerity and genius.
or somesuch crap.
> The reason for its
> use as a basis of introduction is that the psychology of the
> "Judeo-Christian" Westerner finds Kabbalah much more accessible than
> Kejawan or Sufism at the beginning of one's metaphysical journey.
Yeah, give'em the easy stuff first........
> However, in private, the recitations and supplications I've been
> taught by Guru Russ have been all Islamic.
Well; good.
That's puts you diametrically opposed to Bill and his jewish magical
tradition.
hahhahahahahaha
That's rich.
> > It's bad Kaballah, sifted through Sanders' opportunism and rich
> > fantasy life- similar to his silat.
> Qur'anic ayats are not "bad Kabbalah."
Then why did Sanders present Kaballah as 'animist Indonesian magic'
and the basis for the mystical practices of silat?
You mean he's *five* times removed from the actual tradition?
hahahahaha
'shamanism' as 'judaism' as 'shamanism' as 'islam' as 'shamanism'?
that's hilarious.
Remind me of all the 'pendekars' that signed off on that again-
Steve Gartin
"kevin" <thepen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:efbbe272.03022...@posting.google.com...
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> Hey Steve - first, off, just a congratulation. I thought this post,
> the bit I snipped, is a very balanced and fair view of the religious
> stuff. I know I've said negative things to you before about how you
> presented your views, so it's only fair that I compliment you on this
> one. :o)
Thank you Kevin, I appreciate that.
> > Several of my students met William Sanders when he came to Colorado.
All of
> > them concurred that he was inept, incompetent and a charlatan.
That is the word that came back to me - not my personal experience, but from
high-level practitioners of my art.
>
> That being said: one of our gang rented one of the William Sanders
> videos, and lent it to me before it was due back. Wanted to know what
> I thought of it, since I seem to be the guy at the club most
> enthousiastic about Silat.
>
> I told her I thought that much of it was familiar, but done horribly -
> I thought that the movements were really sloppy. Then, at the end,
> there is a form, and I told her that I didn't see any of the
> sophisticated power in the movements - they were just movements, and
> it looked like he didn't know why he was doing them. For example,
> near the end of the form, he has his hands up, and he kind of boogies
> them back and forth, like he was crab walking or something - I've seen
> video from Chas/Steve with 'Uncle Bill' doing a movement that is
> vaguely similar, but when he does it, the hand movements are supported
> through the body - power could very obviously be brought to bear. Not
> so with Sanders - it's the choreography with none of the
> understanding, as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't help it - I
> actually laughed out loud.
I've seen a couple of Sander's videos and am in complete agreement with you.
Sander DID study with Pak Vic for a few months many years ago. I think he
left after he was thrubbed by Bob Veneta on his first day of class. Jest my
recollection . . . don't know for sure if it's true. Might ask Bob.
>
> My friend said "well, I guess, but I don't have anything to compare it
> to, so it looks really good to me." So I lent her "Heartless Monkey
> knife", and the two Steven Plinck videos that I have; I had to pry the
> knife one back, so that I could lend it to someone else, and I still
> don't have the other ones back, months later. And she no longer
> thinks much of the Sanders video. There is an obvious, immediate
> difference in the quality of the movement.
Steve Plinck is phoenomenal! I appreciate being mentioned in the same
sentence.
>
> And just by the way, I'm not a Silat student and I have no affiliation
> to either Chas/Steve or to guru Plinck, other than I am obviously
> impressed by the stuff I've managed to get my hands on. And I'd love
> to find a video with the rest of the Silat djurus.... :o)
>
> :o)
> Kevin
Kevin, I'm working on those DVDs right this moment. I'm making DVD masters,
so they can be reproduced to either VHS or DVD. Should be done with Djuru
Dua and Lanka Tiga in a couple of weeks. I'll keep you posted.
Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
www.kuntaosilat.com
Badger Jones
wrote:
> There are several students out there of the Dutch - Indo groups who
>slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
>and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
>others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
>they also don't approve.
Watch Sanders' video, then follow it up with Steven Plinck's. That'll
give you better perspective on Sanders' skill level.
Badger Jones
www.cyberus.ca/~badger
And whose cruel idea was it to put an S in the word Lisp?
Manuel
> not...@email.com wrote:
> > ....
> > I'm sure you could condemn Pak Vic for religious intolerance,
>
> He was completely 'tolerant'.
> Far more tolerant than if the roles had been reversed.
That's false. My whole family is Christian and I treat all with
respect, regardless of their religion. No one's "religion" is that of
my enemy. My first cousin's husband is an Orthodox Jew straight from
Israel. I like the man for who he is, and have no qualms with his
roots or religion. I have my disagreements with his country's
politics -- no question there -- but I don't have any hatred toward
anyone's faith, whether by birth, choice, or both.
And for those who keep asking, my name's up top in my email and
parentheses! Sheesh...
Manuel
786
Dear Sifu/Guru Gartin,
Having read over your website several times, I can fully understand
your statements. Your words make a lot of sense and I can see where
you're coming from. Under normal circumstances, I would agree.
However, you were not in my shoes or went through my experience.
Furthermore, Tim is like a brother to me. Say someone shows a severe
hatred of whatever tribal group you belong to and threatens you in a
not - so - subtle manner. Suppose one of your best friends whom
you've known half your life is a cop. Tim is a brother to me. If
someone tried to kill him, I'd lay my life down before him. I trust
him.
That law enforcement agencies commit atrocities from time to time and
that too often such atrocities are grossly covered up is true. I will
not deny this. However, I checked with him over what would happen in
each scenario if this were made public. Because of my personal
respect for Guro Dan Inosanto, despite his unfortunate close ties to
Pak Vic, I asked Tim not to have agents visit VDT and Inosanto Academy
in public. He and I agreed that the best course of action would be to
simply watch over him and monitor the areas around his
"tjabang-tjabang" to see if any anti-Muslim acts were committed there,
and to keep a basic eye out for such events.
Had Pak Vic simply pulled me aside and spoke with me one - on - one
about his own prejudices, I would have never even approached Tim. He
has every right to feel the way he feels. That's not my issue. My
issue is that he passes on this seething hatred to his students and
tries to make it "All-American," whatever that's supposed to mean.
I've lived in this country since I moved here as a child, and I've
grown up here. I love this country. I don't think it's about hating
different people. I don't think it's right for someone to try to
incite his students to hate Muslims as much as he hates us himself.
THAT is my problem. If he himself would restrain himself from
committing a heinous crime (and I do have my doubts about that, given
a good chance), who is to say that a student of his, brainwashed by
Pak Vic's own views, would not go out and do something in "honor" of
his teacher? And how do I live with myself without doing anything
about this? I could not sleep for two nights after I came back from
that seminar. I was so disturbed by what Pak Vic said to me and his
accusations and statements in public, that I almost crashed three
times on my long drive home. I paced back and forth at home and at
work with nothing but this in my mind for two days, wondering if
anyone could have been killed at some other such gathering or if
anyone would be killed. What could I do to prevent such an action?
This was my motivation in that choice. I respect your disagreement
with it, and I respect your views wholeheartedly. You have expressed
yourself as a gentleman and I honor that.
Regarding my reasons for posting this somewhat long-winded statement:
Whenever I've done searches on Google groups for threads on Pendekar
Sanders I've found slander after slander after slander from the
DeThouars group. My personal research on Pendekar Sanders has yielded
very different results. To begin with, I consider martial arts to be
more than just methods of fighting. I consider them to be methods of
strengthening one's spirit, mind, and body in such a way that one
becomes a spiritual and enlightened warrior; one who defends the weak
and needy and champions justice. One who exhibits personal prejudices
to the degree that he would allow his mind and heart to be clouded by
hatred of a person before getting to know him is going against the
whole tradition of the martial arts, in my humble opinion. Such a
person is also a threat to peace and security.
Pendekar Sanders exhibits a friendly attitude, a straightforward
manner, and yes, I have seen some of his videos from the other series
(not the Panther one) and his movements were amazing. I've never seen
the movements in the Panther series. A lot can change in twenty
years.
The behavior and composure of Guru Russ Wilson exemplifies wonderful
'adab and the open heart of a true teacher. This, to me, is the first
sign that I seek in a teacher. From there, I look at the skill level
and experience. And those matched in Guru Russ Wilson. My opinions
of Pendekar Sanders' skill are not mine alone. They are shared by
Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Suryadi Eddie Jaffri, Leo Fong, and George
Dillman, among others. Pendekar Sanders has taken students to
Indonesia several times and has trained there with their teachers in
the eyes of such students. They have attested to this. His
certificates are valid and recognized by traditional Indonesian
teachers. Your teachers themselves recognized him as a legitimate
instructor of Silat, and to go back on that years later puts some
serious doubt into their word of honor.
Many of the opinions presented above are mine and mine alone. Some
are not. I make no claims to have full knowledge of anything, but
simply that I am a sentient being, a seeker of knowledge, and I have
my own opinions. I respect yours and admire your skill and knowledge
in the arts.
Respectfully Yours,
Manuel Fernando Nunez
Manuel
> Manuel wrote:
> > I've read all of the posts sent in back and forth, so yes. I also
> > remember the conversations we had a couple of years ago, which you
> > have not, sir.
>
> You didn't identify yourself as 'Manny Nunez', so I had no reason to
> remember you.
> Hi Manny!
Hello again, Guru Clements. It is a pleasure to speak with you again,
even if on opposite sides of an argument.
>
> > Pendekar Sanders was acknowledged as a Guru in Pencak Silat by Guru
> > Besar John Malterer, a direct student of Willy Wetzel, long before he
> > even went to Indonesia and was personally certified there as a more
> > advanced Guru and eventually Pendekar.
>
> Again, being 'acknowledged' is far different from identifying someone
> as a student, or of the lineage- it is a social thing, not a 'martial
> arts' thing.
> You actually have to *read* the certs to understand what's actually
> being said.
As far as I had understood, Guru John Malterer was his personal
teacher and had certified him as a Guru in Silat Cimande/Tjimandie.
>
> > As for Jewish Kabbalism meets
> > Shamanistic Magick, ....
> > There is nothing bogus about that.
>
> Sure there is.
> He didn't call the book; 'Jewish magic for martial artists'.
You have an interesting sense of humor. I already covered my own
understanding of this in my original post, however, and I will refer
you back to that.
>
> > My name's not Bunky. You seem to try to make up for your lack of fact
> > with base insults.
>
> What 'base insult'?
> You seem unduly sensitive there, Manny.
> 'Bunky' is actually an affectionate term for a co-worker; cowboy talk.
I'd like to believe that. I don't know if it's entirely true,
however.
>
> > What I did was this: I gave facts about a very
> > nasty and prejudiced treatment by your beloved teacher, who has some
> > very serious personality issues. Additionally, I presented some
> > opinions of my own which were supported by historical fact.
>
> Lots of people don't like muslims, Manny; get used to it.
> It's the same as if you stood up and self-identified as a 'Satanist'.
> The religion has a 'character', and identifying yourself as having
> that 'character' may well put some people 'off'.
> It's the same as if you decided to follow the old Nahuatl/Aztec 'way'-
> nobody'd trust you around an obsidian knife at the full moon.
Unlike Satanists and Aztecs, Muslims have never done human sacrifice
as a part of worship, so that's a rather horrible analogy. I know
you're going to just try to throw in a statement about "jihad" in the
physical sense being waged in rather savage ways by Muslims in certain
times and places.
>
> > That argument was started by your camp, sir, not his. He only
> > defended himself to each and every assault leveled at him.
>
> Actually, he seized the opportunity to make his name by insulting
> people, their arts and cultures.
> And he couldn't back it up with anything on the floor, so people think
> he's a clown. His stuff is so transparently bogus, that I don't know
> of anyone who takes him seriously.
> His bullshit about the 'council of pendekars' is hilarious. The idea
> that he would set up a 'governing board', with himself as poobah, is
> side splittingly funny. The idea that he would present as a 'pendekar'
> is ridiculous.
I'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Your own teachers said
he was a legit instructor and then turned around years later and
hurled insults at him.
>
> > I remember a talk with you by phone in which you spoke of Sheikh
> > Shamsuddin of the Silat Seni Gayong group as a "very holy man...so it
> > isn't a problem with the religion..." It's nice to see your true
> > colors come out. Thanks.
>
> I still don't have any trouble with them; great folks.
> And, even Sheikh Sam is looked upon askance by other muslims of
> differing sects.
The only Muslims who have a problem with Sufism are the Wahhabis or
those who have become tainted by their sect. Because of our own
sickening ties to the Saudis politically, we've allowed them to
pervert the majority of mosques and Islamic Learning Centers in the
US. Similar things have occurred in Europe, where one raghead is
looked upon as just another raghead. Not true. There are various
types of ragheads. Most of us are kind and compassionate, but some
(typically from more arid lands which mark their own personality) have
a different outlook.
I figured you'd enjoy the terminology. ;)
Before the coming of the Wahhabis in the 18th century, Sufism was
taught in every madrassa as one of the pivotal Islamic Sciences;
"Ihsan" the Science of the Heart, the Spiritual Psychology of Islam,
if you will.
>
> > Actually, that's a load of crap. My mother's best friend, Bea, is
> > Dutch and lived in Indonesia for a few years.
>
> So you refute history with one reference to one woman who lived there
> for a 'few years'?
> What about the other 170,000,000 who have killed *thousands* in the
> name of Islam?
Interesting digits. How did you arrive at them?
>
> > For a man to claim that any of the world's Faiths is "the religion of
> > my enemy" is a sign of high ignorance and bigotry.
>
> Really?
> Then why are Muslims at war with *everybody*, on the basis of their
> religions?
> They're fighting with Buddhists, with Hindus, with shamanist/animists,
> with Jews, with Christians, and with other muslims who don't follow
> precisely the same path.
> Are you calling your own Faith a religion of ignorant bigots?
> seems curious.
We're not. Never have been. Muslims treated Jews and Zoroastrians
well in Spain, throughout North Africa, in Ottoman Turkey (where they
were given asylum), in Iran (where there is still a large Jewish
area), etc. etc. Same goes for other faiths with which we came in
contact over centuries. The seat of the Christian Orthodox Church was
in Istanbul for the longest time, even when it was run by the Ottoman
Sultans; it was never over-run, and Christians were never massacred or
forced to convert or anything of the sort.
>
> > The fights that exist between different factions of all kinds of
> > people in developing countries due to poverty and chaos are hardly
> > unique to only those poor nations wherein Muslims happen to be the
> > majority.
>
> Except that muslims have been at war, on their own initiative, for
> 1500 years- hardly a result of 'poverty'.
Well, I have no idea where you get your stats from.
>
> > In our own country, among the "Pax Americana," we have
> > children shooting children in schools.
>
> And in muslim lands, we see children taken into slavery, starved to
> death deliberately, murdered when convenient, and setting off suicide
> bombs.
> You find a parallel there?
The children taken into slavery in all developing nations are the same
children that sew patches onto your nike gear and mine. Suicide bombs
would refer mostly to Palestine, a country under occupation in which
some people become so desperate that they'll give up their own lives
to escape the subjugation by another tribal group. In order to give
their suicides some meaning, they twist around certain Islamic
injunctions. Strictly speaking, Islam does not condone suicide by any
means, nor does it condone the murder of civilians. Never has. Never
will. And I'm speaking of Islam as taught by the Prophet, peace be
upon him.
>
> > You don't see that anywhere
> > else in the world.
>
> You see far worse.
> Our 'Columbine Massacre' was an aberration. Palestinian suiciders are
> commonplace; moros going amok are pretty common; the 'holy warriors of
> Islam' are slavers of children ever since Mohammed sold slaves and
> married a child.
The Virgin Mary was twelve when she married Joseph. Or have you
forgotten?
>
> > > You wouldn't have got the same forbearance in a Muslim venue.
> > An opinion stemming from your ignorance, which can be understood in
> > that light.
>
> You're trying to say that muslims are open, tolerant, accepting and
> supportive of the freedom of religion?
> pull the other one.
Precisely what I am saying.
>
> > "The Muslims" have threatened? That's pretty funny.
>
> It isn't funny when they threaten to kill your family for teaching a
> 'muslim' art to infidels- here in the US.
> That's 'tolerant' of the 'freedom of religion' as practiced by
> islamists everywhere.
>
> > A Religion of
> > over one billion people and you talk about us as if we were all in a
> > clubhouse that had made repeated prank calls.
>
> You consider death threats to be 'prank calls'?
> Funny, you weren't amused when you were chided about 'pork & beans',
> but you find 'death threats' to be funny.
I wasn't referring to the death threats. I was referring to your
label of "The Muslims."
>
> > .....If a few
> > misguided idiots called you and happened to be Muslims, that hardly
> > speaks for a billion people worldwide.
>
> Do I need to get a phone call from each of the 1.2 billion of muslims
> to realize that they don't like infidels, and consider me to be one?
An official fatwa from Al-Azhar or Al-Qarawwiyyin would suffice. ;)
But somehow I suppose that didn't happen. Now, why do you think that
is?
>
> > I don't go around blaming
> > Christianity for a few misguided idiots blowing up abortion clinics.
>
> Check out the muslim stance on abortion- they don't need to blow up
> abortion clinics, their governments will do it for them.
My own stance on abortion is opposed to it. I've never blown up a
clinic, however. Neither have any of my Muslim friends. And if at
some point in time, a certain secular nation whose majority population
happens to be Muslim has done so, that still doesn't mean it's what
the religion teaches.
>
> > As I stated before, idiots of all faiths do actions in the name of
> > their Faith. It is hardly a phenomenon which occurs only among "The
> > Muslims."
>
> Seems to occur often enough to be a hallmark of Islam to come kill
> anyone who doesn't agree with them.
To someone who wishes to see the Muslims as dangerous savages, of
course.
>
> > I guess if a Jewish man in a bar happened to get in a fight
> > with a bunch of people and was jumped, and all of them happened to be
> > Christians, it would be a "Christian mob" right?
>
> If they self-identified, as do muslims; yes.
Glad we agree on that one.
>
> > Tolerance implies, among other things, politeness. His remarks were,
> > at the very least, rude and disrespectful.
>
> Tolerance means that they aren't killed upon identification- nothing
> to do with needing 'politeness'.
I agree to disagree.
>
> > My ancestral Spain was ruled by TRUE TRADITIONAL Shariah for 700
> > years.
>
> That would be a thousand years ago, right?
> So; what have they done lately?
>
> > Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived in amicable accord (until
> > the Moors were expelled and the Inquisition submitted any suspected of
> > heresy to torture and death). The sciences and arts flourished.
> > That's historical fact. Get a clue, sir. Or get a copy of Marshall
> > Hodgson's three volume Magnum Opus, THE VENTURE OF ISLAM.
>
> So, you have one instance of one situation, a thousand years ago- and
> that's supposed to balance the depredations and warmongering of
> muslims everywhere else, anytime else?
> Get a clue.
Like I said, read about Islamic History. And read some of my above
comments regarding tolerance in Muslim lands toward others.
>
> > As a free citizen who is not a criminal, I
> > deserve the right to be treated with respect, sir; the same respect
> > with which I treat all who are in my presence. This has nothing to do
> > with popularity.
>
> You *were* treated with respect.
> They didn't kill you, or beat you, or make you eat pork, or require
> you to submit and recite that you acknowledge some religion.
> Now think how you would have been treated anywhere in the Islamic
> Empire for the last 1500 years (except in Spain a thousand years ago).
(rolling my eyes)
>
> > I was treated rudely and disrespectfully because your teacher is not a
> > true "giver of light,"
>
> 'giver of light'?
> You expected some sort of religious experience?
> Mostly he just teaches people how to fight.
Then he should be called "Brawler" and not "Maha Guru."
>
> > as the term is supposed to mean, but a
> > prejudiced man who exhibits his hatred of those whom he doesn't
> > understand as far as the law will allow him to do so.
>
> He understands them all too well, and the only thing required of him
> in our country of free speech and free thought is to abide by the law.
Which is why he's not in jail. Just like the Klan. They can say what
they want, but their words incite others to violence. So they're
watched.
>
> > Your
> > understanding of adat, a word which itself comes from the Arabic
> > "adab" is mistaken at best.
>
> I know that a little adab will do you.
Sometimes.
>
> > > Absolutely.
> > > You were given the courtesy of an enemy in a neutral venue.
> > I am no one's enemy except those who attack my friends, family or
> > myself.
>
> Exactly.
> The Prophet Mohammed, peat be upon him, said that a preemptive attack
> on a city was acceptable, in 'self-defense', as long as they looked
> like they might resist being conquered.
> And you wonder why people don't trust you guys?
Correction. A pre-emptive attack was acceptable if spies reported
that the people of those lands were preparing to invade the Muslims.
>
> > If you wish to label me as an enemy simply because my
> > religion is not the same as yours, then you need some serious
> > psychological and cross - cultural counseling.
>
> Oh horseshit.
> The Nazi's followed the Norse religion that glorified warfare- the
> muslims do the same.
> Refraining from trusting someone who follows a warrior religion seems
> prudent at the very least.
Man, now I'm compared to the Asatru guys. First human sacrifice and
now drunken raiders. We don't drink or eat shrooms, ya know. And we
don't go around pillaging for no reason......not legitimately by
Islamic scripture, anyway. And I certainly never have, nor do I
intend to do so.
>
> > After walking out of what seemed more like a KKK rally than a martial
> > arts seminar, yes, I registered a complaint with the Federal Bureau of
> > Investigation, because I don't want to think of what your teacher
> > would do to some innocent person in a back alley if given half the
> > chance. And I am happy that I did so, because his prejudices will now
> > be held in more check.
>
> So you adhere to the idea of a thought crime- and you'll supply the
> 'thoughts' yourself?
> Yeah- seems like you're running true to form for Islamics.
>
Huh?
> > > Special Agent Tim M. Stone of the DC Federal Bureau of Investigation
> > > received your information about Victor de Thouars being a possible
> > > 'vigilante' with 'anti-Islamic tendencies'?
> > He's not an agent but an analyst with full clearance, actually. And
> > he's a brother to me, a man whom I've known for about twelve or
> > thirteen years. You see, unlike some people, I don't sit around
> > judging people by their religion.
>
> Sure you do.
> I daresay you wouldn't report an anti-Jewish muslim as a possible
> terrorist.
> Would'ja?
Yes I would, as a matter of fact. Some of my friends have been
Jewish. My cousin - in - Law is an Orthodox Jew, and he's family to
me. The very example of the Prophet, pbuh, demands this. He freed an
innocent Jewish man accused of stealing and punished a Muslim who had
done the actual theft. He took it upon himself to find all the
evidence because it seemed a crime of prejudice to him, and he was
right.
>
> > Actually, it's a referral to Bahasa Melayu, in which "Serak" is
> > translated as "Laryngitis."
>
> That would be relevant if 'Serak' were from 'Bahasa Melayu'.
> You see, Sukarno was a Bahasa tribesman and imposed his language by
> fiat on the other peoples of the Archipelago. There are 3500
> languages, 6 religions, 27 ethnic groups on 17,500 islands.
> Making an insult out of an accidental homonym is childish- and true to
> form for Sanders.
Or...say...Guru Besar Rudy TerLinden? Right?
To be continued.
Manuel
Chris Gunn
>The Nazi's followed the Norse religion that glorified warfare- the
>muslims do the same.
>Refraining from trusting someone who follows a warrior religion seems
>prudent at the very least.
You don't trust the Sihks?
Gunn
Steve Gartin
Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I better see your point of view.
Have some distance now from my Teacher, I no longer am compelled by adat to
support his views. I wish I could argue your points in good faith.
The de Thouars Brothers are all about fighting - and I believe they are a
wonder in that regard; all four of them!
When I first met dear Willem, back in 1976, he was a Muslim. He later
became a Dutch Lutheran and from a video de distributed all over the world
in 1999, he is now part Jewish.
I have never relished the way the Brothers talk about each other in public;
I've always opined that such comments are better made *within* the Family
group.
A Pendekar is a holy fighting man, as I understand the term. As a seeker of
our Creator, I eagerly confess that there are as many ways as there are
People. My Way evolves as I evolve. Thirty years ago I thought my King's
name was Jesus - now I know Him as YahSheua; then I believed *literally* in
the Bible - now I understand the polictical purposes for polluting the
Scriptures and have adopted another point of view.
I cannot condone, nor defend, my Brother Victor's treatment of you. I can
tell you that I have found him to be a wonderfully gracious and benevolent
man. You must understand that there are forces at work in the world bent
upon creating a *wedge* between the People - drawn along racial, religious
and caste lines. All of the great Teachers have taught *forgiveness.* I
hope you will find it in your heart to forgive my Brother Victor. He is SO
proud of this Country and SO protective of it. He, like most of the masses,
is subject to *The Image which Speaks* (Revelation 13: 15) and indoctrinated
by NewsSpeak to believe things that are not necessarily true. I think you
may have caught him at an unguarded moment of patriotic zeal, and fell prey
to the prevailing anti-Saddam sentiments reflected in the media.
I have ceased to refer to myself as a *Christian* simply because of what the
term has come to mean. Perhaps I have *created* my own religion - but I DO
NOT agree with the current *Christian* world. I follow YahSheua, Messiah
and His Teachings; the Church has strayed and I do not want to be associated
with it. I have found that MOST religions do NOT follow the teachings they
claim as their constitution and it saddens me that true seekers of God are
separated along religious lines. We are all one Family - like it or not!
About Sanders: All of my information, except view his videos are second hand
and none of it is complimentary. If he is a spiritual leader, then I've
been asking the wrong question. I always thought a Pendekar could fight -
my mistake - sorry. Perhaps it would be expedient for him to become a
*Whirling Dervish* or some Sufi term that would accentuate the positive.
There is NO excuse for casting the baleful eye of the FBI on anyone. Having
had it done to me, I understand the full ramifications of that act, and I do
NOT condone it - even though the guy is a friend, his organization is one of
the worst criminal enterprises I am aware of, and their power to destroy
lives is unlimited. I am not pleased nor amused that you have done that to
my Brother Victor and it is too late for you to take it back! The People
MUST learn to fight their own battles, without involving the perverse
government. I understand that Tim is like a brother to you; but the
organization he belongs to is notoriously corrupt and out-of-control.
I've enjoyed the civil nature of your disagreements Manuel and I look
forward to meeting you one day.
Best regards,
Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
www.kuntaosilat.com
"Manuel" <manuel_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffb13179.03022...@posting.google.com...
Mark Goldberg
>That's why I said could, and we needn't talk about what happens to people of
>other religions in most strict Islamic countries.
>Hell the friggin' Taliban couldn't ever stand for statues of another
>religion in Afganistan.
>
>
they couldn't stand them so much they blew them up... and they wanted
the few remaining hindu's who were the majority religion for a couple
thousand years, to wear yellow armbands... for their 'protection' .
I was reading in Oriana Fallaci's book, the Rage and The Pride, in
supposedly moderate bangladesh, her experience watching a stadium full
of people,
proceeding down the steps of the stadium, to walk over the corpses of 12
men, convicted of some offense, who had dared something out of line, and
were executed by being stabbed in the throat with bayonets,
and then... the thousands of dutiful people, proceeded to trample their
dead bodies into hamburger, into the
ground chanting , "Allah Akbar"
Mark
Mark Goldberg
>Chas <gryp...@attbi.net> wrote in <3E59A066...@attbi.net>:
>
>Actually, he seemed to favor the Islamic political line pretty
>closely- as with the expulsion of the Dutch Indos.
>
>
>anti-colonialism is Islamic? I thought it was universal.
>
>...doesn't help to have a bunch of kids around all the time telling him
>how his shit doesn't stink and hanging on his every word. makes an old
>man lazy and that's a fact.
>
>Carl
>
>
So it was purely anticolonialism that motivated them. That's preposterous.
It is naivete too consider 1300 yrs of a dictate against non moslems
ruling wherever
Islam has trode to be a result of anti-colonialism. Yes anticolonialism
is part of the mixture,
and it's not universal- except for those who engage,
the kind of neuvo marxist thinking which also makes a man lazy, and also
is a fact.
I saw a happy birthday wish to Kim (mentall) il Sung from the
Workers World Party-
I guess the fact that his people eat grass and tree bark, is OK
economics and truly a result of colonialism, right?
Mark
Mark Goldberg
>... No one's "religion" is that of
>my enemy. My first cousin's husband is an Orthodox Jew straight from
>Israel. I like the man for who he is, and have no qualms with his
>roots or religion. I have my disagreements with his country's
>politics -- no question there -- but I don't have any hatred toward
>anyone's faith, whether by birth, choice, or both.
>
>
This is OT and I don't need you to get bogged down here; but
If you have disagreements with his country's politics- you might take a peek
at the hadiths that call for the annihilation of jews everywhere, and
the few remaining
being converted at the point of a sword to Islam.
I was looking at a picture of Joseph's Tomb, which is such a
holy site to us jews- and it has been reduced to rubble, by moslems
who o hate infidels, and destroy others religous sites worldwide over the
course of history. Has nothing to do with 'politics' although that would
be the
'excuse'.
I'm glad you're of the sufi persuasion- I used to read Jalal Al-din
Rumi's Love poems
and thought this was Islam when I was young.
Mark
kevin
> Kevin, I'm working on those DVDs right this moment. I'm making DVD masters,
> so they can be reproduced to either VHS or DVD. Should be done with Djuru
> Dua and Lanka Tiga in a couple of weeks. I'll keep you posted.
Do you have any intention of taping the shorter djurus and lankas? I
guess those ones are the ones from serak, rather than the kuntao, yes?
I'm interested in all of it, of course, but specifically, I'm looking
for a source for the basic djurus and lankas - Pak Victor has a series
that seems to present that, and Guy Chase seems to have them for Mande
Muda, do you know of any others, or which is better?
I'm too far (Ottawa, Canada) to really have the option of doing any of
the 'distance learning' stuff - not that it doesn't look appealing,
since I would still have to manage to get out there regularily, etc.
The Guru Plinck video has the Bukti Negara first Djuru on it, and with
Otter/Russ' sifu I did some as well; I really like them as building
blocks, and my memory is sufficiently shitty that I have problems
retaining too many long forms properly (specially since there are a
bunch that I have now from the kung fu that I want to be able to pass
on - it's that old 'basket is full' problem). By the way, Djuru Satu
is nice and short, too, so I will definately be ordering some DVD's
from you - I like the idea of having it on DVD, too. Something like a
martial arts video it just makes more sense - indexing, pausing
without wrecking the tape, etc.
Also, just some feedback for your tapes, I've got a bunch now, and I
can say that I really like the part of the tape where the students use
'free play' to demonstrate principles from the stuff you are teaching.
After you watch the form a couple of times, you pretty much see what
you can see, but with the free play stuff, there is a constant wealth
of information that gets more sophisticated as your eye learns to pick
out different things; also, something that Guru Plinck (and Sanders,
for that matter) does is emphasize the principles by picking out a
movement demonstrating the principle and repeating it in slow motion -
really helps with the subtlety.
:o)
Kevin
Steve Gartin
"kevin" <thepen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:efbbe272.0302...@posting.google.com...
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> > Kevin, I'm working on those DVDs right this moment. I'm making DVD
masters,
> > so they can be reproduced to either VHS or DVD. Should be done with
Djuru
> > Dua and Lanka Tiga in a couple of weeks. I'll keep you posted.
>
> Do you have any intention of taping the shorter djurus and lankas? I
> guess those ones are the ones from serak, rather than the kuntao, yes?
Yes, I just viewed the Djuru Series from Pak Victor and they are VERY good.
Three videos to get all 18 Djurus.
> I'm interested in all of it, of course, but specifically, I'm looking
> for a source for the basic djurus and lankas - Pak Victor has a series
> that seems to present that, and Guy Chase seems to have them for Mande
> Muda, do you know of any others, or which is better?
Haven't seen Guy's stuff, but I'd give the nod to Pak Vic simply from time
in grade.
>
> I'm too far (Ottawa, Canada) to really have the option of doing any of
> the 'distance learning' stuff - not that it doesn't look appealing,
> since I would still have to manage to get out there regularily, etc.
Interestingly, several folks are doing REAL well on the distance learning
program. I think you have to have a certain level of discipline and
investigative talents. If you'd like to correspond with a couple of them,
I'll shoot you their emails.
>
> The Guru Plinck video has the Bukti Negara first Djuru on it, and with
> Otter/Russ' sifu I did some as well; I really like them as building
> blocks, and my memory is sufficiently shitty that I have problems
> retaining too many long forms properly (specially since there are a
> bunch that I have now from the kung fu that I want to be able to pass
> on - it's that old 'basket is full' problem). By the way, Djuru Satu
> is nice and short, too, so I will definately be ordering some DVD's
> from you - I like the idea of having it on DVD, too. Something like a
> martial arts video it just makes more sense - indexing, pausing
> without wrecking the tape, etc.
Yeah I'm impressed with the DVD format. Djuru Satu has a LOT to offer.
>
> Also, just some feedback for your tapes, I've got a bunch now, and I
> can say that I really like the part of the tape where the students use
> 'free play' to demonstrate principles from the stuff you are teaching.
> After you watch the form a couple of times, you pretty much see what
> you can see, but with the free play stuff, there is a constant wealth
> of information that gets more sophisticated as your eye learns to pick
> out different things; also, something that Guru Plinck (and Sanders,
> for that matter) does is emphasize the principles by picking out a
> movement demonstrating the principle and repeating it in slow motion -
> really helps with the subtlety.
>
> :o)
> Kevin
Yeah, I've been going round with the slow mo for years. I've got some slomo
stuff, but have never been happy with the quality of it. Good suggestion -
I'll continue to work on it. *BackYard* Productions has its limitations.
:-)>
Thanks for your input Kevin,
Steve Gartin - Free
www.kuntaosilat.com
Chas
> .......
> > > I'm sure you could condemn Pak Vic for religious intolerance,
> > He was completely 'tolerant'.
> > Far more tolerant than if the roles had been reversed.
> That's false. My whole family is Christian and I treat all with
> respect, regardless of their religion.
Nobody's talking about your family.
You're not in Victors family- neither he in yours.
> No one's "religion" is that of
> my enemy.
Do you have any enemies?
Chas
> .......
> >Refraining from trusting someone who follows a warrior religion seems
> >prudent at the very least.
> You don't trust the Sihks?
Not to be anything else but Sikhs.
Chas
> As far as I had understood, Guru John Malterer was his personal
> teacher and had certified him as a Guru in Silat Cimande/Tjimandie.
He teaches a bad version of the serak djurus he ripped off of the de
Thouars'; where is his tjimande?
Willem and Joyce de Thouars teach Tjimande- from her father, Carl
Deerns. Nothing they do looks anything like what Sanders does; why?
Sanders looks like bad serak, and doesn't look like tjimande- is there
a clue there?
> > 'Bunky' is actually an affectionate term for a co-worker; cowboy talk.
> I'd like to believe that. I don't know if it's entirely true,
> however.
Take my word for it.
Had I wished to insult you, I would have done so without any mistaking
whatsoever on your part.
> Unlike Satanists and Aztecs, Muslims have never done human sacrifice
> as a part of worship, so that's a rather horrible analogy.
One is constrained to the comparisons available. Muslims have long
murdered in the prosecution of their faith, and as a direct result of
their interpretation of their dogma. They just sentenced a cleric in
Britain for inciting to murder all non-believers as a tenet of Islam.
Are you saying that you understand the religion better than many of
their own preachers?
Did you learn about your religion in the safe haven of the US, or
amongst them and their daily practice?
> I know
> you're going to just try to throw in a statement about "jihad" in the
> physical sense being waged in rather savage ways by Muslims in certain
> times and places.
Everyday since Mohammed set the example.
> I'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Your own teachers said
> he was a legit instructor and then turned around years later and
> hurled insults at him.
He arrogated credentials to himself, and tried to exercise control and
authority over people senior to him and more capable than him. Their
'recognition' of him was a purely social thing, nothing to do with his
capacity as a practitioner or teacher. It's a common social practice
in Indonesia to give social honorifics- paper's cheap.
> The only Muslims who have a problem with Sufism are the Wahhabis or
> those who have become tainted by their sect.
That would be the guys in charge of Arabia and the Holy Cities, yes?
> Because of our own
> sickening ties to the Saudis politically, we've allowed them to
> pervert the majority of mosques and Islamic Learning Centers in the
> US.
And the madrassa's everywhere else too- they are the controlling group
in Islam, and believe that everyone *else* is 'tainted'.
> Similar things have occurred in Europe, where one raghead is
> looked upon as just another raghead. Not true. There are various
> types of ragheads. Most of us are kind and compassionate, but some
> (typically from more arid lands which mark their own personality) have
> a different outlook.
> I figured you'd enjoy the terminology. ;)
Why?
Do you assume that I use slurs as you seem so quick to do?
> > What about the other 170,000,000 who have killed *thousands* in the
> > name of Islam?
> Interesting digits. How did you arrive at them?
Which ones- the muslim population of the Archipelago or the huge
numbers of Christians killed there in the name of Islam?
> > Except that muslims have been at war, on their own initiative, for
> > 1500 years- hardly a result of 'poverty'.
> Well, I have no idea where you get your stats from.
Are you quarreling with the '1500 years'? Ok; nearer 1300.
You know, ever since Mohammed and the Companions raided throughout the
Arabian Peninsula as bandits and conquerors. Thence outward from their
own lands into the lands of other peoples. Whom they didn't wipe out
entirely, they converted by force.
Unless you mean the kindly muslim slavetraders/missionaries that
proselytized from Morocco to the Filipines.
> The children taken into slavery in all developing nations are the same
> children that sew patches onto your nike gear and mine.
So you figure that Nike workers are being driven by the whip, their
families murdered, transported to the fields and worked unto death?
> Suicide bombs
> would refer mostly to Palestine, a country under occupation in which
> some people become so desperate that they'll give up their own lives
> to escape the subjugation by another tribal group.
Saddam has them marching in his army parades.
> In order to give
> their suicides some meaning, they twist around certain Islamic
> injunctions.
No; the suiciders are being sanctioned by the holy men of Islam (with
notably few exceptions, and those mostly in the European/American
milieu). The suiciders are being promised religious reward.
> Strictly speaking, Islam does not condone suicide by any
> means, nor does it condone the murder of civilians. Never has. Never
> will. And I'm speaking of Islam as taught by the Prophet, peace be
> upon him.
Mohammed killed 'civilians', sold slaves, raided as a bandit, and
promoted the conquering of the world as a manifestation of Islamic
'peace'.
> The Virgin Mary was twelve when she married Joseph. Or have you
> forgotten?
Mohammed 'married' a nine-year old.
> > You consider death threats to be 'prank calls'?
> > Funny, you weren't amused when you were chided about 'pork & beans',
> > but you find 'death threats' to be funny.
> I wasn't referring to the death threats. I was referring to your
> label of "The Muslims."
They were self-identified, and their motivation was religious.
'The Muslims' isn't a scientific term, so a scientific exclusion
doesn't invalidate the characterization. I think that fundamentalism
is far more common than some local muslims will admit; and far more a
part of the religion than they will admit. The mullahs have absolutely
no difficulty in calling on a long and active history of similar
action.
> An official fatwa from Al-Azhar or Al-Qarawwiyyin would suffice. ;)
> But somehow I suppose that didn't happen. Now, why do you think that
> is?
I'm not so sure it hasn't. The silat community in Indonesia is *very*
religious, and forms much of the warrior class. The 'ranks' are very
much related to one's observance of religious requirements, and far
more gurus silat won't teach infidels than will. The phone calls have
been very direct, and very sincere. There was no doubt that they saw
killing me and my family a religious duty. It didn't change my life
much simply because I have threats down the block, much less someone
calling me on the phone.
I don't dislike muslims. I rather like and respect them when they're
friendly. I didn't have anything to do with being identified as their
opponent/enemy, so I'm pretty much just satisfied that they don't seem
to play well with others, and I think we may have to kill a bunch of
them.
And I don't think any of them will be surprised to see us.
> My own stance on abortion is opposed to it. I've never blown up a
> clinic, however. Neither have any of my Muslim friends.
Are they East African?
Hell, they just killed a bunch of people over a fucking beauty
pageant- as an expression of religious fervor.
> And if at
> some point in time, a certain secular nation whose majority population
> happens to be Muslim has done so, that still doesn't mean it's what
> the religion teaches.
But it's not just 'a' nation; it's many nations. It has no
'nationality', it's religious. All of the religious' of whatever
sub-culture, language, 'race'/ethnicity seems to find the same
justifications in their religious practice and the same sanctions from
their clerics.
> To someone who wishes to see the Muslims as dangerous savages, of
> course.
Why would I want to see the Muslims as 'dangerous savages'?
I don't seek that view about Buddhists, or Hindus, or Catholics, or
shamans, or ancestor devotees, or Taoists.
Why would I single out Muslims to consider 'dangerous' as some sort of
intellectual fiction? I reject that one can consider them 'savages',
considering that they're very cultured. It does follow, however, that
their very acuity and intelligence makes them an incredibly scary
enemy.
> .....all of them happened to be
> > > Christians, it would be a "Christian mob" right?
> > If they self-identified, as do muslims; yes.
> Glad we agree on that one.
Then you can't be offended by usage such as 'muslim mob', or
generalizations to 'muslim viewpoint' or 'muslim intent'.
> > Tolerance means that they aren't killed upon identification- nothing
> > to do with needing 'politeness'.
> I agree to disagree.
Irrelevant; that's what the word means.
One has to tolerate all sorts of things I don't have to be polite
about in the least.
> > > Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived in amicable accord (until
> > > the Moors were expelled and the Inquisition submitted any suspected of
> > > heresy to torture and death).
That was your meeting with the Roman Empire; essentially a pagan
construct. You'll notice that they were just as hard on 'heretic
Christians' as on anyone else. That was politics Caesar-style. On
other fronts, the Muslims met the armies of India, of China, of the
pagans and the shamanists. Some lost, some didn't.
In every case, it was a religious invasion at Mohammed's instruction
and example.
> The sciences and arts flourished.
> > > That's historical fact. Get a clue, sir.
Nobody said they were stupid; just dangerous.
> > You *were* treated with respect.
> > They didn't kill you, or beat you, or make you eat pork, or require
> > you to submit and recite that you acknowledge some religion.
> > Now think how you would have been treated anywhere in the Islamic
> > Empire for the last 1500 years (except in Spain a thousand years ago).
> (rolling my eyes)
When an enemy comes into your midst under social taboo (adat), he is
treated as a neutral. That means that you don't kill him on sight as
he sits at your table, sells in the marketplace, is of a taboo class
(civilian, holy man, valued professional, etc.).
You were treated within the bounds of civil propriety (hormat). The
fact that you felt 'insulted' by overhearing talk between compatriots
about their common enemy isn't surprising, nor relevant- it's yours.
Any sort of 'threat', much less the extreme you take it to, is your
own fantasy. Nobody voiced any threat to you; waved their fist at you,
showed you a weapon.
And, having violated the hormat in adat by presenting your fantasies
to criminal authorities, you've abdicated any 'neutral' status and
acted as a direct enemy.
That's unfortunate.
> Then he should be called "Brawler" and not "Maha Guru."
Only by his friends.
And, he didn't 'brawl' with you; he didn't even offer you a brawl-
neither did anyone else.
Believe me, you can tell the difference with Victor.
> > He understands them all too well, and the only thing required of him
> > in our country of free speech and free thought is to abide by the law.
> Which is why he's not in jail.
Precisely; he committed no crime, even verbally.
You, on the other hand, might well have given false/misleading
information to the FBI for your own religious/political purposes.
> Just like the Klan. They can say what
> they want, but their words incite others to violence. So they're
> watched.
Just like at the mosques, the clerics and the muslim devotees.
And, guess what; Victor has no history of any sort of violence against
muslims, and muslims have a long, and present, history of violence
against Dutch Indonesians as a class, and the de Thouars'/de Vries
Family in particular.
If I was a betting FBI Special Agent, I'd bet on you to initiate
violence rather than Victor. After all, you reported him to the FBI
and he left you alone.
> > I know that a little adab will do you.
> Sometimes.
You don't remember 'Brylcreme', do you ;-)
> Correction. A pre-emptive attack was acceptable if spies reported
> that the people of those lands were preparing to invade the Muslims.
hahahahaha; they wouldn't be contemplating muslims at all unless they
were being invaded. Who the fuck ever wanted Arabia except to buy what
they, themselves, found by digging, and for which only they,
themselves, had a use? Arabians have always been warlike, and after
Mohammed, found a religious tenet to support their expansion.
> Man, now I'm compared to the Asatru guys. First human sacrifice and
> now drunken raiders.
There are only a limited number of religions with which to draw
parallels in any case.
What is your prejudice against drunken raiders? It can't be the
'raider' part, as Mohammed and the Companions were bandit raiders-
muslims have traditionally got stoned on cannabis, alcohol is an
arabic word- it's not like they never heard of it.
Or is it just because they came raiding *at you*.
See, that's what we don't like about muslims; they don't play well
with others, and won't play alone.
> We don't drink or eat shrooms, ya know. And we
> don't go around pillaging for no reason......not legitimately by
> Islamic scripture, anyway. And I certainly never have, nor do I
> intend to do so.
see; you may be missing the most spiritual part- immediate life and
death stoned to the tits.
> > So you adhere to the idea of a thought crime- and you'll supply the
> > 'thoughts' yourself?
> > Yeah- seems like you're running true to form for Islamics.
> Huh?
Islamics determine that there are thought crimes, and determine both
what they are, and enforce them ruthlessly.
You had a fantasy about some feeling of violent threat, extrapolated
it to 'violent anti-muslim cult' pretty quickly, and took your
delusion to the most powerful criminal enforcement agency in the
world.
Seems pretty taliban to me, dude.
> Yes I would, as a matter of fact. Some of my friends have been
> Jewish.
Mohammed butchered 600 Jews for even *speaking* with his enemies;
nevermind that they refused to aid them. He sold their families into
slavery.
> >....
> > Making an insult out of an accidental homonym is childish- and true to
> > form for Sanders.
> Or...say...Guru Besar Rudy TerLinden? Right?
It was a joke when Rudy said it.
Sanders seized upon it to make insult- same with the stuff about the
Badui, same with the stuff about Bukhti Negara, same with the
questioning of 'credential' because of the destruction of WWII (what's
on the floor counts, and Sanders has been whipped by novice students
of Serak- *that's* the 'credential'), and the same with his taking of
the Despot's line about Dutch Indonesians.
Rudy studied Serak for a long time, and it never meant 'laryngitis'
(it's taken from the personal name of the founder. Many Indonesians
use only one name, and his was 'Serak'. He was called 'Burung' by
familiars, was a Badui by birth, and is called 'Pak' as short for
'Bapak' [father] as the Founder of the system)- as a student of Paul's
group (the de Vries connection, and later practice together in the
Dutch Marine Commandos) and a confrere of Paul's. They had a personal
falling-out over religious principles. Rudy had converted to
Christianity and felt he couldn't continue to practice the mystical
stuff that Paul is so 'into'.
Paul felt that Rudy had broken adat by converting from Islam to
Christianity, and they became pretty disparaging of one another. Paul
later converted to Christianity, as did Willem. Victor, as far as I
know, never practiced Islam- and pretty much stays away from the
mystical practices as well.
Paul and Rudy had reconciled at the time of Rudy's passing, and Rudy
is missed by all of us- I've got vids of him, and he influenced a lot
of my own practice by his fine example.
Nah; Sanders is an opportunist- and, if he's got better in twenty
years, I'm not surprised.
Mark Goldberg
>>Unlike Satanists and Aztecs, Muslims have never done human sacrifice
>>as a part of worship, so that's a rather horrible analogy.
>>
>>
I'm not so sure... it's a grey area
but there are so many instances in Israel, where muslim slaughter takes
place.
To call it worship is not an easy one.
But after 9/11, it had been noted that at I believe Bir Zeit University,
there
was an art exhibit going on, and had been the weeks prior to 9/11.
The 'students' of course had the obligatory American and Israeli flags
to walk upon and wipe their muddy shoes; this allowed by the Israeli's (
imagine a similar
situation for jews in a muslim country?) and inside, there was the
most important part of the 'art exhibit'
It featured sculptures of Hassidic Jews, hiding in their black cloths,
hats, beards etc
behind a rock- and in front of the rock was a youthful statue of a
'Jihadist', and when the attendee
pressed the button the lights lite up the scene and the rock would speak
to the 'Jihadist'
'Oh holy warrior- there is a jew behind me, kill him'
Of course the jihadist had a grenade in one hand, and a koran in the other.
Now- please- don' give me politics, and such- this is the hadith of the
'end' times as seen by
muslims in those hadiths.
And it is used in countless ways not only in Israel, but worldwide,
against- the 'infidels'
And there have been innumerable videos of imams calling for such
slaughter as holy work.
Human sacrifice??
mark
Tomas Drgon
> 786
> Selamat and Hormat. I wanted to make sure my message was posted with
> enough subject links to be hit by anyone who had anything to search
> for in the following subjects.
>
> I'm posting this because I've seen a lot of bickering back and forth
> between the DeThouars/Dutch-Indo crew and the Sanders crew and I
> thought I might add my own personal experiences and knowledge to this.
> slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
> and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
> others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
> they also don't approve.
>
>
Snip
Manuel, this was an interesting read. I do not have any silat
experience, but I've been looking into some kind of stickfighting to
take up, so I incidentally came across several silat pages. Hope you
don't mind me saying, but they are all overdoing it a bit, and the
whole field seems a kind of cultish. Why do you insist on practising
silat? I gather from your post that you live around DC. There's a lot
of interesting stuff going on here in terms of MA. Just drop them
silat guys alltogether and let them play their dungeons and dragons.
As for going to the FBI, unless you have filed something official,
your complaint is going to get lost somewhere in the bureaucracy.
Take care
Tomas
Chas
> .....Hope you
> don't mind me saying, but they are all overdoing it a bit, and the
> whole field seems a kind of cultish.
It *is* a trip.
Silat is about fighting- it's from an entirely different culture and
mindset than Japanese(Korean), or Chinese, or even euromerican. It is
utterly pragmatic, even to including metaphysical stuff as part of
training the complete warrior. All the 'meditations' are about being a
better warrior; all the solo drills, all the two-man drills, all the
sparring, all the politics- everything.
If you're actively fighting, that's a plus. If you're living in a more
'civil' world, it can make you act a bit inappropriately at times.
No big thing if being a 'warrior' is, somehow, important to you.
> Why do you insist on practising
> silat?
'Cause they are the baddest mofo's on the planet. I've seen/felt a
little of everything in almost 50 years of practice, and I've never
seen anything that approaches it.
caterbro
> Caterbro wrote:
> >anti-colonialism is Islamic? I thought it was universal.
> Islam has trode to be a result of anti-colonialism. Yes anticolonialism
> is part of the mixture,
> and it's not universal- except for those who engage,
> the kind of neuvo marxist thinking which also makes a man lazy, and > also
> is a fact.
boy, you can push a button when you want to, huh?
For the record, i am a secular humanist with marxist leaning with
indulging in broad-spectrum speculation, in terms of my historical
outlook.
as such, i will tend to look for the 'push' factors and consider
cultural ones *as well as end results of culturation* of secondary
importance.
Religion is not and has never been a primary motivational force in the
decolonization of any region on the planet. it always stems from two
sources- a weakening of the moral imperative of the colonizer(which
includes a strategic weakening), and an increase of the empowerment,
in concrete terms, of the colonized. the level of education,
solidarity, resentment or prosperity in any varying combination of
degree inceases to the point that the weakened colonial power loses
its grip.
religion is can be a moral imperative, religion can be a factor in
solidarity, or in resistance. it is never the cause- not in indonesia,
not in America, not in Israel/Palestine or anywhere else.
carl
jeez i should be working- enough , enough :)
Jim Clayman
Check them out. Ask Trav I think he lives in DC.
Chas
> Religion is not and has never been a primary motivational force in the
> decolonization of any region on the planet. it always stems from two
> sources- a weakening of the moral imperative of the colonizer(which
> includes a strategic weakening), and an increase of the empowerment,
> in concrete terms, of the colonized. the level of education,
> solidarity, resentment or prosperity in any varying combination of
> degree inceases to the point that the weakened colonial power loses
> its grip.
Indonesia an exception then.
The muslims were themselves 'colonialists'- they ruled through the
sultanate system. They lost to the Brits in the early 1830's or so,
maybe a little earlier. The Dutch had been there for years as traders,
intermarrying where they could.
The Japanese supplanted the Dutch during their bid for the 'Pan-Asian
Co-Prosperity Sphere' (WWII Pacific), lost and left. The power vacuum
left was immediately filled by Sukarno on a Muslim Nationalist
platform. His tribe, the Bahasa, are muslims, and they have controlled
the Archipelago since.
The whole idea of the Archipelago being a single country, under a
muslim leader, is religiously based.
Chas
>
> Chas <gryp...@attbi.net> wrote in message news:<3E5BAC44...@attbi.net>...
> >
> > Mohammed 'married' a nine-year old.
> >
Could well be- my interest in such things only extends just so far.
kevin
> Yes, I just viewed the Djuru Series from Pak Victor and they are VERY good.
> Three videos to get all 18 Djurus.
Thanks - that was the way I was leaning anyway - also because I
figured Pak Vic had time in grade. :o) There's also just more
material; it'll take me a while to compile it all though.
> Interestingly, several folks are doing REAL well on the distance learning
> program. I think you have to have a certain level of discipline and
> investigative talents. If you'd like to correspond with a couple of them,
> I'll shoot you their emails.
I think I have enough experience to do well with the distance learning
thing, actually - I've trained long enough that I can pick out
subtleties, and I've got enough body awareness to be able to
replicate. Also, I think the stuff we do is close enough that our
drills support many of the practices, with very small adjustments.
I think what I was trying to get at was that being so far away, and
not having tons of money, I can't get out to see anyone in person once
a year, get that hands on benefit. I'll probably be limited to
learning on my own, with our group.
> Yeah I'm impressed with the DVD format. Djuru Satu has a LOT to offer.
Definately; I like how many practical things come out of the
movements. No dross, if you will.
> Yeah, I've been going round with the slow mo for years. I've got some slomo
> stuff, but have never been happy with the quality of it. Good suggestion -
> I'll continue to work on it. *BackYard* Productions has its limitations.
Hey don't get me wrong: I *like* the backyard productions aspect.
Well, okay, you could eliminate the bits where Chas walks in front of
the camera. Ha ha. But other than that, I like that this is a more
intimate feel to it; I'll take the quality stuff over having a
backdrop anyday. Any suggestions I have are nitpicking quibbles.
:o)
Kevin
Steve Gartin
Steve
"kevin" <thepen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:efbbe272.0302...@posting.google.com...
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> > Yes, I just viewed the Djuru Series from Pak Victor and they are VERY
good.
> > Three videos to get all 18 Djurus.
>
> Thanks - that was the way I was leaning anyway - also because I
> figured Pak Vic had time in grade. :o) There's also just more
> material; it'll take me a while to compile it all though.
Pak Vic's presentation is clean, clear and understandable!
> > Interestingly, several folks are doing REAL well on the distance
learning
> > program. I think you have to have a certain level of discipline and
> > investigative talents. If you'd like to correspond with a couple of
them,
> > I'll shoot you their emails.
>
> I think I have enough experience to do well with the distance learning
> thing, actually - I've trained long enough that I can pick out
> subtleties, and I've got enough body awareness to be able to
> replicate. Also, I think the stuff we do is close enough that our
> drills support many of the practices, with very small adjustments.
Yep, those are the prerequisites. Sounds like you are on your way.
>
> I think what I was trying to get at was that being so far away, and
> not having tons of money, I can't get out to see anyone in person once
> a year, get that hands on benefit. I'll probably be limited to
> learning on my own, with our group.
>
You might get some *travelers* to drop my some time.
> > Yeah I'm impressed with the DVD format. Djuru Satu has a LOT to offer.
>
> Definately; I like how many practical things come out of the
> movements. No dross, if you will.
It was designed to be the best combat techniques of several silat and kuntao
styles.
> > Yeah, I've been going round with the slow mo for years. I've got some
slomo
> > stuff, but have never been happy with the quality of it. Good
suggestion -
> > I'll continue to work on it. *BackYard* Productions has its
limitations.
>
> Hey don't get me wrong: I *like* the backyard productions aspect.
> Well, okay, you could eliminate the bits where Chas walks in front of
> the camera. Ha ha. But other than that, I like that this is a more
> intimate feel to it; I'll take the quality stuff over having a
> backdrop anyday. Any suggestions I have are nitpicking quibbles.
>
> :o)
> Kevin
Chas winces and grimaces everytime he sees that - I should probably stop
torturing him someday. . . NAW. :-)>
I appreciate the nitpicking, I intend to get better - so the comments are of
value to me; thanks.
Have a great day Kevin.
Chas
> Watch Sanders' video, then follow it up with Steven Plinck's. That'll
> give you better perspective on Sanders' skill level.
Well; there have been developments in the whole thing.
It seems that Nunez has been a shill for Bill Sanders for a while- the
entire story of the incident is a lie designed to insult Pak Vic in a
public forum and try to make him out a bigot.
Nunez was accepted by all; he was applauded for having driven six
hours to come to the seminar. Everybody stepped up to help him,
including Ibu Jane, Pak's wife (and a fine teacher in her own right).
Everybody thought he looked like Goofy; a klutz and a clown, but
nobody did anything except accept him openheartedly.
He is already known to the FBI as a flake. By all accounts, this isn't
the first silly thing he's done involving them.
As an aside, they seem to have a decidedly narrow sense of humor about
such things.
Anyway; his account of the rifle story is bogus, as is his reported
trepidation and intimidation by the group.
Oh yeah; and it's all on tape.
See; Victor has his stuff taped for good clips of teaching and
technique. There's someone vidding him at almost any given time in a
public situation.
Manny; you're going to be a Star.
Tomas Drgon
> Tomas Drgon wrote:
> > .....Hope you
> > don't mind me saying, but they are all overdoing it a bit, and the
> > whole field seems a kind of cultish.
>
> It *is* a trip.
> Silat is about fighting- it's from an entirely different culture and
> mindset than Japanese(Korean), or Chinese, or even euromerican. It is
> utterly pragmatic, even to including metaphysical stuff as part of
> training the complete warrior. All the 'meditations' are about being a
> better warrior; all the solo drills, all the two-man drills, all the
> sparring, all the politics- everything.
> If you're actively fighting, that's a plus. If you're living in a more
> 'civil' world, it can make you act a bit inappropriately at times.
> No big thing if being a 'warrior' is, somehow, important to you.
>
It souds more like insecurity and bad manners to me.
> > Why do you insist on practising
> > silat?
>
> 'Cause they are the baddest mofo's on the planet. I've seen/felt a
> little of everything in almost 50 years of practice, and I've never
> seen anything that approaches it.
Well, you have not yet felt the guys that daily shoot each other in East Baltimore.
Tomas
Chas
> It souds more like insecurity and bad manners to me.
Well, sounds like it's not for a manly man like you.
> > 'Cause they are the baddest mofo's on the planet. I've seen/felt a
> > little of everything in almost 50 years of practice, and I've never
> > seen anything that approaches it.
> Well, you have not yet felt the guys that daily shoot each other in East Baltimore.
I've been shot three times; what do they do that's different?
Badger Jones
>> Well, you have not yet felt the guys that daily shoot each other in East Baltimore.
>
>I've been shot three times; what do they do that's different?
They get shot daily.
Badger Jones
www.cyberus.ca/~badger
And whose cruel idea was it to put an S in the word Lisp?
kevin
> Kevin wrote:
> Pak Vic's presentation is clean, clear and understandable!
That's good to know - there's more of it, too. It'll take me a while
to raise funds, but I definately intend to. Probably buy them a bit
at a time, that way I can work through them without that huge initial
investment.
> You might get some *travelers* to drop my some time.
Yeah? You know, every now and then Badger and I are talking, and one
of us says "Damn, we gots to go to Colorado!" and then we both sigh.
:o) If any travelers are thinking of coming by, they should let us
know so that we can ease the passage in whatever way we can, arrange a
meet and greet, some training, hospitality, that sort of thing -
impress upon the travelers how welcome they are. :o)
> It was designed to be the best combat techniques of several silat and kuntao
> styles.
I can see that - coming from a meld of chinese and filipino
backgrounds, and having seen and done seminars in Silat, I think I
have a good sense of where the bits are coming from.
> > Hey don't get me wrong: I *like* the backyard productions aspect.
> > Well, okay, you could eliminate the bits where Chas walks in front of
> > the camera. Ha ha. But other than that, I like that this is a more
> > intimate feel to it; I'll take the quality stuff over having a
> > backdrop anyday. Any suggestions I have are nitpicking quibbles.
> Chas winces and grimaces everytime he sees that - I should probably stop
> torturing him someday. . . NAW. :-)>
What are friends for? no, really, what? :o)
:o)
Kevin
Kevin and Stephanie
> Well; there have been developments in the whole thing.
> It seems that Nunez has been a shill for Bill Sanders for a while- the
> entire story of the incident is a lie designed to insult Pak Vic in a
> public forum and try to make him out a bigot.
> Nunez was accepted by all; he was applauded for having driven six
> hours to come to the seminar. Everybody stepped up to help him,
> including Ibu Jane, Pak's wife (and a fine teacher in her own right).
> Everybody thought he looked like Goofy; a klutz and a clown, but
> nobody did anything except accept him openheartedly.
> He is already known to the FBI as a flake. By all accounts, this isn't
> the first silly thing he's done involving them.
> As an aside, they seem to have a decidedly narrow sense of humor about
> such things.
> Anyway; his account of the rifle story is bogus, as is his reported
> trepidation and intimidation by the group.
> Oh yeah; and it's all on tape.
> See; Victor has his stuff taped for good clips of teaching and
> technique. There's someone vidding him at almost any given time in a
> public situation.
> Manny; you're going to be a Star.
Well actually, I'm really glad to hear this - I hope it's true. It would
cement any question I might have had about whether I should eventually buy
tapes from Pak Victor; good on him.
It also makes my views of Sanders sit easier with me.
:o)
Kevin
Steve Gartin
Steve Gartin
was really nervous that they would go after Brother Victor - since they
already know how dangerous he is!
It's funny that Sanders keeps turning up doing creepy things. Perhaps this
crap is his style of magick. He's gonna invoke an incantation on the FBI to
go after real martial arts masters through mindwashed Mannies? Where's the
gain in that?
Jest wondering,
Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.net> wrote in message
news:3E5D138E...@attbi.net...
Kevin and Stephanie
> Are yuz guyz on the pretty side of Canada, or on the Kansas side?
Um; trick question, Kansas is kind of in the middle, like you guys. :o)
But I guess, compared to Colorado, we're on the Kansas side - having been to
British Columbia recently, I'd have to agree you guys got the pretty side.
We're in the not so exciting side, then. About an hour and a half drive
from the border to northern New York state.
:o)
Kevin
Chas
> Well actually, I'm really glad to hear this - I hope it's true.
I heard the 'story' from two witnesses- there was no story. And, I am
not surprised to hear that everything is taped (along with the whole
seminar; you know, candid stuff). Nothing of any such nature ever
occurred; it is a fabrication entire.
The animus from Bill Sanders is well known. He and his muppets have
been sniping for a long time- although I have to say that this is the
most egregious fabrication they've come up with. Usually they just
tell the laryngitis joke, whine about spelling and such, flash a few
testimonial letters from the Indonesian gummit, and threaten to work
their crocodilesnakeshit magick.
Come to think of it; maybe they're working the dreaded 'Squabble
Curse' on us.
The FBI thing was the twister; the Bureau don't like to be talked
about at all, and less if it's nasty. Victor has very good contacts
into all levels of law enforcement due to his constant teaching the
ODF Program to various special unit people in both law enforcement and
the military. It probably didn't take but a minute to deal with this
thing.
When Nunez took this into the public venue, especially as talking
about criminal investigation by the most powerful law enforcement
agency in the world, he involved people that do that shit for a
living.
Invoking the FBI, in public, whether he actually contacted them or
not, took all the joke out of it. They're very conscious of their
public face, particularly in light of the numerous scandals they've
suffered in the last few years. You can't take them lightly; they
resent it. At certain mid-management levels, they're actually,
probably, reasonably honest; it could be.
Scary guys.
> It would
> cement any question I might have had about whether I should eventually buy
> tapes from Pak Victor; good on him.
The de Thouars boys fight.
It's of minimal interest to me whether the Pope has them in line for
canonization or not.
I love them dearly. They gave me a great gift in kindness, compassion,
generosity and grace. We've had our differences, and some remain
still, but there's nothing I wouldn't do for them outside of hand
range.
Victor is my teacher. I've known him for almost twenty-five years-
through good times and bad. He wouldn't act that way. It's not in his
nature to break such a *basic* law of respect by intimidating a novice
like that. It would make him look 'inappropriate'- like kicking your
little sister's kitty.
> It also makes my views of Sanders sit easier with me.
whole different story.
what's on the floor counts.
You can paper the motherfucker an inch deep with stuff that has chops
and funny writing and signatures and all that. If you can't fight, it
means nothing.
To produce excellent students is the criteria for a teacher.
Each of the Brothers has *outstanding* gurus silat to their credit-
and a further raftload of guys that don't teach, solely practice.
I've never seen anyone out of Sanders that fights any better than he
does.
The Brothers are the most sophisticated martial artists I've ever
met/known/heard of. They have the deepest understanding of the nuance,
intricacy, finesse and refinement, exotic skills and warrior
'philosophy' that I've ever been exposed to in any context.
Who cares if they get a little cranky sometimes over weird stuff?
no problem.
Steve Gartin
scares me) so it may be a while b4 I get up your way, but when I'm headed
your direction I'll be sure to drop in and say hi! From your posts, I've
grown fond of you and Badger.
Steve (West is Best) Gartin
"Kevin and Stephanie" <kevin_...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:zYd7a.6127$kf7.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
ordosclan
> First of all, let's get some things straight.
>
> Pendekar William Sanders has NEVER made any slanderous comments
> against Islam or Muslims. We have gurus in the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka
> lineage who are traditional Muslims, as a matter of fact.
Machievelli begged the question. If you could choose one, would you
rather be feared or respected? List all the reasons Sanders should
respect islam vs. fear of repercussions for making rational and
reasonable, critical statements against islam?
> Now, let me tell you of my own little experience with Pak Victor
> DeThouars and Mr. Tim Lucas last year.
Call me paranoid. But I have a problem with people that go to forien
countrys, mingle with people, fly back then sit down and write what
looks like internal memorandum... er, reports about the people they
met, what they said, what they wore, dates, times....
All this without taking one note? Were you trained to do this
somehow? Naturally talented? Selective memory syndrome (guffaw)? Or
selected for these strange abilitys.
> In August or October of 2002 I had the chance to go up to NW
> Pennsylvania to do a seminar with Pak Victor deThouars of the Serak
> lineage. On the first day, I overheard Pak Vic talking about guns
> with Tim Lucas' brother-in-law, who was told by Pak Vic that his
> favorite weapon of choice was his 7mm high - powered rifle because "I
> use it to pick off the Muslims at a thousand yards. Ha ha." My jaw
Comedy. 1000 yards. With a MOA of 8 feet. This is what we call a
joke. I'd prefer to stuff them in ovens but hey...
> dropped, and that wasn't the end of it. During lunch he made the
> comment that he was glad there were pork and beans because Muslims
> couldn't eat pork and beans and "ha ha" again. But it gets better.
This is a good thing. They already give of a nasty odor.
> Pak Vic asked me at one point which country had the best martial arts,
> and before I could answer I was told that "America does. We do. Do
> you know why?" I replied that it was because we had the best martial
> artists in the world, but Pak Vic corrected me: "No sir, because we
> have THE BOMB." Gee, what an enlightening thought -- equating
> spirituality and martial arts with weapons of mass destruction.
> Really mentally healthy and inspiring.
Shit yeah. Nothing beats the indiscriminate b-52 bombing of rice
pattys full of women and children or droping an A bomb on civilians.
> On the second day of the seminar, during lunch, I was talking to Pak
> Vic and mentioned that I hoped to someday go to Indonesia and train
> with the silat masters, Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
> there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
> you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
Why would you WANT to go to indonesia to learn silat from
treeswingers? Besides, indonesian women are Fan lui.
> yes sir, I am." The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
> to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
Ostentious values... thats a first in the history of martial arts.
> and this is how it was returned. Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
> Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
> religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
Did he bring up that issue with Muha-mad fornicating with animals?
> I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
> with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
> OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
> Muslims -- the extremists. I'll say it now and I've said it a
Guilt by association. You people are worse than euro-peons talking
all this passive, socialist bullshit. Then when the shit hits the fan
you want someone to bail your ass out or leave you alone. But in your
passivity you support people through the doctrine of non-interference.
Look at frances well documented duplicity in arab fundamentalism.
> thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
> Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
> and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
Doesnt make any difference. After the arab world is destroyed we turn
our attention to western civilisation. Your not getting any pussy
points with diatrabe like this.
> the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
> attitude. Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
> this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
> WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
They dont need a reason.
> There was one big young man with glasses who patted me on the shoulder
> after the whole argument and shook his head as if to say, "Don't
> worry, it's just the way he is." God bless him for his kindness. I
> didn't dare leave because after all of that, I half expected Pak Vic
> to send someone after me to kill me on the way home. I literally
> thought he was going to take me out back to butcher me after sending
> the others back from the log cabin to the gym next to it. I've never
> seen such hatred in someone's eyes for someone he doesn't even know.
Do you know satan? Are you aware of how great he can make your life?
You can anything you desire. Why do you have so much hate for the
forces of darkness. Hahahahhahaah.
> Pak Vic didn't let up. During the finish of the seminar he made the
> comment that "If I had been on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have
> NEVER done it!" and later on some other comment about "If they want to
> go to ALLAH, I'll send them to ALLAH!" That was before pointing out
> to others that I was a Muslim and that he unfortunately had to respect
> that (respect???) because it was written in the Constitution. In
What?!
> other words, if there was no law, I probably wouldn't be alive today.
> And at another point in time, he pulled me over to tell me that he was
> going to be watching me closely and was going to profile me because I
> was a "MOO - SLEM." He made smartass remarks about my being in
> Security and made me feel completely out of place. My religion was
> slandered, I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
> threatened. Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat. When I commented
Now you know what its like to be a WOMAN ahahahahahahahahahhahaha
ahahahhahahahahahah ahahahahah. Thank allah you have a penis..
ahahahahaha hahahahahahaha ahahahahhahaahaha. Dont tell me, your a
feminist.. ahahahahhahahaha hahahahhahahahah ahhahahahahahahahha
ahahhhahahhaah
> that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
> Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
Your comments here are suspitious. Join the peace corps.
bahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah
> wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
> Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
> on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
> and hormat, right?
Selam donk.... ahahahahhahaah
> Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
> vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies. One of my best friends, Tim
Yah, real believable... And you know this how?
> M. Stone, works for the Bureau and I told him my whole experience
> within two days' return back to the DC area. By the way, the two top
I'm wondering how much you get paid for this?
> FBI agents on the Osama Bin Laden Research Team are American Muslims,
You ever hear the expression: Shit brigades?
ordosclan
> they couldn't stand them so much they blew them up... and they wanted
> the few remaining hindu's who were the majority religion for a couple
> thousand years, to wear yellow armbands... for their 'protection' .
>
> I was reading in Oriana Fallaci's book, the Rage and The Pride, in
> supposedly moderate bangladesh, her experience watching a stadium full
> of people,
> proceeding down the steps of the stadium, to walk over the corpses of 12
> men, convicted of some offense, who had dared something out of line, and
> were executed by being stabbed in the throat with bayonets,
>
> and then... the thousands of dutiful people, proceeded to trample their
> dead bodies into hamburger, into the
> ground chanting , "Allah Akbar"
>
>
> Mark
I was talking with someone in a chat room about islam. I brought up a
anecdote about a british prime minister that is seen reading the
koran. He is asked if he is a muslim. He replys: "No, I am getting
inside the minds of my enemys" then a guy who is somalian and family
is muslim interjects with: "...and what if your enemy doesnt have a
mind?"
Do your own research. Muslims are not even allowed to have a mind or
self-determinism. This kind of makes practicing martial arts,
mysticism, voodoo, witchcraft and taking drugs and narcotics to
"enhance" the effects of silat (in the name of islam) problematic.
Contradictions within contradictions.... The problem when you have a
body run by broken subroutines. They are all naturally primed and
encouraged to practice two-faced, backstabbing, gossip tactics.
Garbage in, garbage out.
If you dont take the situation seriously enough. Remind yourself that
it was islam that destroyed the Khanate. Classic example of the worst
of both worlds. That should clue you into the kind of cancer your
dealing with. Kill the idea, and eventually the body follows...
ordosclan
I'm sure chas wasnt wearing a flag that said "SHOOT ME".
Manuel
786
If I've lied about anything, may Allah s.w.t. strike me dead in the
most awful way imaginable to you, Mr. Clements. I never lied about
anything in my recounting. The rifle comment was made on the other
side of the gym as he was putting on his knee guard and I was
stretching on Saturday morning. The pork and beans statement was made
at lunch on the same Saturday. The bomb comment was made on Sunday
before lunch. The "Religion of my Enemy" comment was made on Sunday
during lunch, inside the log cabin home of Tim Lucas. That's where we
had the long argument. My clothes being dumped out in the front porch
was done on Sunday. And I highly doubt that I'm "known to the FBI as
a flake." It's a nice attempt to cover up for your friend, but a
dishonest one. So, go on, then, " Mr. Truthful," what silly things
have I done involving the Bureau? I'd like to know -- I'd like to
read the tall tales. I'm sure they'd be quite interesting. I've been
approached for advice on more than one occassion post 9/11 by my
friend, and I doubt that this is because I am considered a "flake."
This is the first claim I've ever filed with the FBI, and it wasn't
even filed directly, it was a lead given to a close friend to follow
up. By the way, seeing as how the argument was in the living room
during lunch and how the rifle comment was done while everyone was
stretching, inside the seminar, did the camera catch his little
comment about "You see how your people are?" as I accidentally applied
a locking technique a bit too hard on my partner? What about his
objective reaction to Ibu Jane's lending me her forearm support and
their very brief exchange of glances? No, I imagine those tiny bits
were cleverly deleted. What about his statements about "If I had been
on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have never gotten away with it!"
as we all sat around the pantjar on Sunday afternoon...or when Tim
Lucas' kid asked him if he had ever killed anyone and he said that he
only sent them back to their maker, adding quickly that "If they want
to go to Allah, then I send them to Allah." I bet those little bits
got lost too, right? Smart move, but pretty obvious. On the other
hand, to come outright and lie and show those students who were there
that he is not only prejudiced but also a liar?
And for your information, Mr. Clements, I have not been a spy or --
what was your word -- "shill?" -- for Bill Sanders' group for a
"while" but I have been a student for a few months. I met Guru Russ
about two months after the incident with Pak Vic. I commented it with
him since I was asking about their history and told him about my
experiences with silat and silat players. To tell you the truth,
their version of history seems much more credible to me -- especially
after this. Your prejudices about Islam are one thing, but calling me
a liar when everything I've said is true? If you know Pak Vic as well
as you say you do, you KNOW deep in your heart that I'm not lying.
Videotapes can be edited, Mr. Clements. The unwanted parts are
deleted. Like I said, the argument I had with him was not even part
of the training -- it was, as I said, in Tim Lucas' living room in his
log cabin home during lunch on Sunday. Why would he tape an argument
with a first - time student for a training vid??? As for the little
aftermath comments he made, I guess Pak Vic's "mureeds" (Arabic for
initiates/apprentices, used most commonly in sufi circles;
incidentally also used by Pak Vic) did a good job of editing the rest
-- such as Pak Vic's comments on MOO-SLEMS when we were sitting around
the pantjar. And I'm sure you know his distinct pronunciation of the
word, as well. I bet I made that up, too, right?
I can understand your frustration with your friend's name being stated
in a bad light. I can understand your prejudices about people of my
faith. I can understand your dislike of Pendekar Bill Sanders given
your ties to the DeThouars brothers. Throughout all of this, you
still had my respect, even if I disagreed with you.
However, you have now testified a lie...and doing so, it leaves no
question in my mind as to how much truth is in your other statements
regarding your teachers and their lineage. Some kind of Christian you
are, siding with your friend when he's in the wrong, and going so far
as to lie for him. But you know what? That's fine. You go ahead and
lie for Pak Vic. All those students that were there at that seminar
know what happened. They know. They saw, they heard. And they'll
wonder, Mr. Clements, why their beloved teacher chose to lie about
statements he made freely in their presence, and why the rest of those
around him have chosen to lie as well, to cover up his tracks.
Tim Lucas' kid will remember, Mr. Clements, and it'll stay with him as
he passes into adulthood. Why did Pak Vic lie? Why didn't he just
say the truth about what he said? Wasn't it just his opinion? Why
did they all lie about it? So you go on and lie, Mr. Clements, and
tell everyone that I drove up 9 hours in my beat up '88 civic just to
"make up a story" about Pak Vic -- because that's what I like to do
with my time and money, Mr. Clements, spend hours driving up to
uncharted territory in the middle of nowhere, in an old car, risking
my life in rainstorms, skidding back and forth, just to make up lies
about a man whom I once held in high esteem. Shame on you and may God
forgive you. I have nothing more to say to you ever.
Sincerely,
Manuel F. Nunez
Manuel
It's fascinating how just a few postings ago you were defending his
actions as a reasonable part of adat and hormat. Now, suddenly, you
decide to deny everything and "It's not in his nature to break such a
*basic* law of respect by intimidating a novice like that." Nice
twist. Really nice. Say what you want to say, Chas, you and I both
know what happened there; and you and I both know Victor's character
and prejudices.
Manuel
Dear Mr. Gartin,
I appreciate your comments and opinions wholeheartedly, both the ones
with which I agree and the ones with which I disagree, and I hold you
in high respect.
I am sorry to say that I cannot say the same of your friend and
partner, Mr. Chas Clements. To say that I drove up 9 hours each way
-- spent time and gas money -- and paid about $150......just to
slander Pak Vic (???) is ridiculous, as well as dishonest. The bit
about my being a spy for Pendekar Sanders was just silly, what a
conspiracy theory! I've never even met Pendekar Sanders personally,
but I know of him and I'm a student under one of his instructors since
November of 2002. And the FBI bit...that I'm "known as a flake" --
oh, please! Aside from a bunch of speeding tickets and vehicle
infractions from earlier years, I've got a clean record and work for
an International Security Company. My friend Tim has come to me on
more than one occassion with questions post 9/11.
However, as I've said, let people believe what they want to believe.
Those students who were there know what happened, and the three of us
know Victor's prejudices. Besides that, it's just a tad mysterious
that Mr. Clements was defending Victor's actions wholeheartedly as
being within 'adat and hormat and then suddenly turned around 180
degrees, denied the whole thing, and said that it would actually be
against the "basic" laws of adat to act that way. Very interesting.
I'm sure the readers will find it interesting also. And to everyone
out there: believe what you want to believe. God knows best.
And as for you, Mr. Gartin, I sincerely wish you the best in all
things. Peace.
Sincerely,
Manuel F. Nunez
"Steve Gartin" <st...@thunderrock.net> wrote in message news:<3e5b1...@omega.dimensional.com>...
> Good evening Manuel,
>
> Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I better see your point of view.
>
> Have some distance now from my Teacher, I no longer am compelled by adat to
> support his views. I wish I could argue your points in good faith.
>
> The de Thouars Brothers are all about fighting - and I believe they are a
> wonder in that regard; all four of them!
>
> When I first met dear Willem, back in 1976, he was a Muslim. He later
> became a Dutch Lutheran and from a video de distributed all over the world
> in 1999, he is now part Jewish.
>
> I have never relished the way the Brothers talk about each other in public;
> I've always opined that such comments are better made *within* the Family
> group.
>
> A Pendekar is a holy fighting man, as I understand the term. As a seeker of
> our Creator, I eagerly confess that there are as many ways as there are
> People. My Way evolves as I evolve. Thirty years ago I thought my King's
> name was Jesus - now I know Him as YahSheua; then I believed *literally* in
> the Bible - now I understand the polictical purposes for polluting the
> Scriptures and have adopted another point of view.
>
> I cannot condone, nor defend, my Brother Victor's treatment of you. I can
> tell you that I have found him to be a wonderfully gracious and benevolent
> man. You must understand that there are forces at work in the world bent
> upon creating a *wedge* between the People - drawn along racial, religious
> and caste lines. All of the great Teachers have taught *forgiveness.* I
> hope you will find it in your heart to forgive my Brother Victor. He is SO
> proud of this Country and SO protective of it. He, like most of the masses,
> is subject to *The Image which Speaks* (Revelation 13: 15) and indoctrinated
> by NewsSpeak to believe things that are not necessarily true. I think you
> may have caught him at an unguarded moment of patriotic zeal, and fell prey
> to the prevailing anti-Saddam sentiments reflected in the media.
>
> I have ceased to refer to myself as a *Christian* simply because of what the
> term has come to mean. Perhaps I have *created* my own religion - but I DO
> NOT agree with the current *Christian* world. I follow YahSheua, Messiah
> and His Teachings; the Church has strayed and I do not want to be associated
> with it. I have found that MOST religions do NOT follow the teachings they
> claim as their constitution and it saddens me that true seekers of God are
> separated along religious lines. We are all one Family - like it or not!
>
> About Sanders: All of my information, except view his videos are second hand
> and none of it is complimentary. If he is a spiritual leader, then I've
> been asking the wrong question. I always thought a Pendekar could fight -
> my mistake - sorry. Perhaps it would be expedient for him to become a
> *Whirling Dervish* or some Sufi term that would accentuate the positive.
>
> There is NO excuse for casting the baleful eye of the FBI on anyone. Having
> had it done to me, I understand the full ramifications of that act, and I do
> NOT condone it - even though the guy is a friend, his organization is one of
> the worst criminal enterprises I am aware of, and their power to destroy
> lives is unlimited. I am not pleased nor amused that you have done that to
> my Brother Victor and it is too late for you to take it back! The People
> MUST learn to fight their own battles, without involving the perverse
> government. I understand that Tim is like a brother to you; but the
> organization he belongs to is notoriously corrupt and out-of-control.
>
> I've enjoyed the civil nature of your disagreements Manuel and I look
> forward to meeting you one day.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
> www.kuntaosilat.com
>
> "Manuel" <manuel_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ffb13179.03022...@posting.google.com...
> > "Steve Gartin" <st...@thunderrock.net> wrote in message
> news:<3e59b...@omega.dimensional.com>...
> > > Well I gotta log in on this one!
> > >
> > > You know, being a certain kind of religious *outcast* myself, I have a
> lot
> > > of tolerance for any religious belief any man holds with convictiion and
> > > integrity. Forget the disagreements for a moment - and let me tell you
> that
> > > going to the cops, = the FBI = is inexcusable. People have to get over
> > > *calling the cops.* The *cops* are predominately NOT OUR FRIENDS. I
> have
> > > lived with Victor de Thouars and I adore the man, but I am not blind to
> his
> > > prejudices. I believe his *good* FAR outweighs his bad. Having seen,
> > > first-hand, the seamy side of our government, and the terrible damage
> *they*
> > > can wreck - I take great offense that someone would *report* Pak Vic to
> the
> > > authorities and forever smear his name and honor for being
> UltraAmerican, as
> > > he conceives it.
> > >
> > > I too, read the Holy Qur'an on a regular basis - as well as the JW
> Bible,
> > > the Book of Morman, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, Plato and the New
> > > Testament and see our Creator's light in all of those writings. I'm
> > > saddened that we cannot all come to the understanding that we are ALL
> > > together in this LIFE - but I cannot condone people going to the cops
> with
> > > *mind crimes.*
> > >
> > > Pak Vic may have been out of line in his exuberance for his adopted
> > > country - but the kid going to the FBI is inexcusable by any standard.
> > >
> > > Several of my students met William Sanders when he came to Colorado.
> All of
> > > them concurred that he was inept, incompetent and a charlatan.
> > >
> > > Besides, magick doesn't work on me.
> > >
> > > Just my opinion,
> > >
> > > Steve Gartin - Free (and really grateful for it) :-)>
> > > www.kuntaosilat.com
> >
> > 786
> >
> > Dear Sifu/Guru Gartin,
> >
> > Having read over your website several times, I can fully understand
> > your statements. Your words make a lot of sense and I can see where
> > you're coming from. Under normal circumstances, I would agree.
> > However, you were not in my shoes or went through my experience.
> > Furthermore, Tim is like a brother to me. Say someone shows a severe
> > hatred of whatever tribal group you belong to and threatens you in a
> > not - so - subtle manner. Suppose one of your best friends whom
> > you've known half your life is a cop. Tim is a brother to me. If
> > someone tried to kill him, I'd lay my life down before him. I trust
> > him.
> >
> > That law enforcement agencies commit atrocities from time to time and
> > that too often such atrocities are grossly covered up is true. I will
> > not deny this. However, I checked with him over what would happen in
> > each scenario if this were made public. Because of my personal
> > respect for Guro Dan Inosanto, despite his unfortunate close ties to
> > Pak Vic, I asked Tim not to have agents visit VDT and Inosanto Academy
> > in public. He and I agreed that the best course of action would be to
> > simply watch over him and monitor the areas around his
> > "tjabang-tjabang" to see if any anti-Muslim acts were committed there,
> > and to keep a basic eye out for such events.
> >
> > Had Pak Vic simply pulled me aside and spoke with me one - on - one
> > about his own prejudices, I would have never even approached Tim. He
> > has every right to feel the way he feels. That's not my issue. My
> > issue is that he passes on this seething hatred to his students and
> > tries to make it "All-American," whatever that's supposed to mean.
> > I've lived in this country since I moved here as a child, and I've
> > grown up here. I love this country. I don't think it's about hating
> > different people. I don't think it's right for someone to try to
> > incite his students to hate Muslims as much as he hates us himself.
> > THAT is my problem. If he himself would restrain himself from
> > committing a heinous crime (and I do have my doubts about that, given
> > a good chance), who is to say that a student of his, brainwashed by
> > Pak Vic's own views, would not go out and do something in "honor" of
> > his teacher? And how do I live with myself without doing anything
> > about this? I could not sleep for two nights after I came back from
> > that seminar. I was so disturbed by what Pak Vic said to me and his
> > accusations and statements in public, that I almost crashed three
> > times on my long drive home. I paced back and forth at home and at
> > work with nothing but this in my mind for two days, wondering if
> > anyone could have been killed at some other such gathering or if
> > anyone would be killed. What could I do to prevent such an action?
> > This was my motivation in that choice. I respect your disagreement
> > with it, and I respect your views wholeheartedly. You have expressed
> > yourself as a gentleman and I honor that.
> >
> > Regarding my reasons for posting this somewhat long-winded statement:
> >
> > Whenever I've done searches on Google groups for threads on Pendekar
> > Sanders I've found slander after slander after slander from the
> > DeThouars group. My personal research on Pendekar Sanders has yielded
> > very different results. To begin with, I consider martial arts to be
> > more than just methods of fighting. I consider them to be methods of
> > strengthening one's spirit, mind, and body in such a way that one
> > becomes a spiritual and enlightened warrior; one who defends the weak
> > and needy and champions justice. One who exhibits personal prejudices
> > to the degree that he would allow his mind and heart to be clouded by
> > hatred of a person before getting to know him is going against the
> > whole tradition of the martial arts, in my humble opinion. Such a
> > person is also a threat to peace and security.
> >
> > Pendekar Sanders exhibits a friendly attitude, a straightforward
> > manner, and yes, I have seen some of his videos from the other series
> > (not the Panther one) and his movements were amazing. I've never seen
> > the movements in the Panther series. A lot can change in twenty
> > years.
> >
> > The behavior and composure of Guru Russ Wilson exemplifies wonderful
> > 'adab and the open heart of a true teacher. This, to me, is the first
> > sign that I seek in a teacher. From there, I look at the skill level
> > and experience. And those matched in Guru Russ Wilson. My opinions
> > of Pendekar Sanders' skill are not mine alone. They are shared by
> > Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Suryadi Eddie Jaffri, Leo Fong, and George
> > Dillman, among others. Pendekar Sanders has taken students to
> > Indonesia several times and has trained there with their teachers in
> > the eyes of such students. They have attested to this. His
> > certificates are valid and recognized by traditional Indonesian
> > teachers. Your teachers themselves recognized him as a legitimate
> > instructor of Silat, and to go back on that years later puts some
> > serious doubt into their word of honor.
> >
> > Many of the opinions presented above are mine and mine alone. Some
> > are not. I make no claims to have full knowledge of anything, but
> > simply that I am a sentient being, a seeker of knowledge, and I have
> > my own opinions. I respect yours and admire your skill and knowledge
> > in the arts.
> >
> > Respectfully Yours,
> >
> > Manuel Fernando Nunez
Phillip Inoy
the subject.
First, I'm deeply saddened by your experiences with one of the best
martial artists in the US. I saw him at the San Jose Gasshuku and
despite being a bit out of shape he reminded me that this was a blade
art and one doesn't need aerobicism to do it. (He did smile when he
said that..so he has a sense of humor.) He had a great turnout and it
was a great intro to his family's art. Mas Djut was a brilliant silat
player. PakVic didn't strike me as bigoted as you claimed him but then
again, I didn't spend more than a few days with him. We never broached
the subject of Islam.
His brother Uncle Bill is truly a phenom. I have seldom seen a man
move so fast, so without telegraphing, regardless of age. He was
demonstrating on Bear Roberts(a student) and Bear is a big man. Uncle
Bill would have no trouble dispatching 99 percent of the people on
RMA. The other one percent he'd have even LESS trouble with. His
attack on Bear was rapacious and relentless and Bear was hopelessly
done with. That was what he called "his intention" of his family's
art.
Each of them has their own spin on their family's art and truthfully,
based on what I saw I prefer Uncle Bill's. He truly is the monkey
king.
Anyways, you are correct, there are many sects of ISLAM and the Sufis
are essentially pacificistic. My eskrima teacher was a sufi. He had
loads of trouble with the Wahabis, he HATES them...He too is pro war
against the "MOO-SLEMS" and many many "Moo-Slems" regardless of what
sect the belong to are joining this bandwagon. These "Moo-Slems" are
undoubdtedly wahabi(an EXTREMELY conservative, money oriented group in
the SUNNI category. They are not the Shiites that are commonly known
to be terrorists, but many wahabis secretely support war against the
US. Their feeling is simple, since the Shiites are muslim I must
support them since to not do so is to go against my religion.
Not all wahabis think this way but most that I've encountered do.
I cannot blame Pak Vic for his sentiments, though perhaps he can be
faulted for the manner he seems to have presented them. I WAS NOT
THERE and won't pass judgement. Yet I cannot blame him.
When I saw the women, children and young men of Palestine handing out
candy, throwing confetti and partying in the streets after 9/11 I was
thoroughly enraged!! These "Moo-SLEMS" are indoctrinating their
children..who will undoubtedly become fighting adults, into hating and
violating my country. If conflict arises between a great nation like
ours and a series of pitiful terrorists nations like Iran, Iraq,
Afghanistan, Libya, et al..the results are obvious. We will win and
many children, innocent or otherwise will die. On both sides. But them
more so than us. In fact those countries are likely to cease to exist
in the near future. Better to get the problem over with now than let
it drag on.
For the record I do not support our policies toward Israel either; the
zionists have done alot of damage in an area where the 3 religions
used to coexist peacefully. People of the Jewish faith here in the US
have a powerful lobby supporting this nation's efforts towards Israel.
Pak Vic may have an agenda towards Islam and like a lot of immigrants
who've come here for the opportunities America affords us, is unable
to dissect which sect is ok and which is anti-American.
I'm having trouble because many Islamists are siding with people who
they KNOW are acting incorrectly because they see them as brothers in
faith, and are unwilling to see that these terrorists are not acting
for the betterment of ISLAM but are using it as a cover and a support
mechanism. They rely upon the human tendency to defend your mother
against your brother, brother against your cousin; defend your cousin
against a stranger. They do it not on the basis of blood but on the
basis of faith. 2 brothers(ISLAM) against a stranger(USA)
I do know one thing. THIS nation is the only nation that would ever
dream about a coalition or seeking support from other countries before
retaliating after 9/11 Any other country would have immediately bombed
the living shit out of any known terrorist supporting country and
their allies without blinking, let alone ASKING someone else's
permission.
If, sir, Pak Vic acted as you said then I am sad. Martial arts
expertise is no guarantee against bigotry, though you'd think it might
be.
However, you may have considered telling him about your faith in
private rather than publicly; people have pride and aren't to easily
willing to eat their words, especially at one of their own seminars.
What I would have said to him was that I am a proud American and I
support its policies wholeheartedly and I am a sufi. I wouldn't have
used the word "moo-slem" or any pronunciation of it. this may have
allowed him to make an "exception in your case" rather than force him
to either lose a student or his pride publicly. Remember, you are not
"moo-slem" in the sense he was using the word. You are a sufi and
aren't prone to support financially or personally the tactics
fundamentalist Islam uses.
An example of this kind of tactic can be found in the book "the Subtle
Ruse" in which the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) is begged by a man being
chased by an army. The prophet Muhamed(pbuh) told him to hide
immediately as he stood up to take a seat on a nearby stump. The man
hid and the army cam shortly thereafter and asked the Prophet
Muhammed(pbuh) where the prisoner went. The prophet Mohammed(pbuh)
replied "verily I say unto you that as I have sat upon this stump no
one has passed me." The chief of the army group, thinking that the
prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would never lie went in another direction.
The moral of the story is that where sin abounds, grace abounds the
more. And that one does not have to tell every detail of the truth to
be telling the truth.
Go back to Pak Vic and be sincerely honest with him. Explain that you
were hurt though he didn't know you were of Islamic faith and ask him
what there is that YOU can do to repair the relationship. Ask him not
to hold your faith against you and that you wish to study under him
because you feel his Silat is true and correct. Tell him that despite
the fact you were hurt, you wish to study under him. If you expect
grace, show humility. Look at Leo Giron and what he did for this
country despite the fact he was filipino...actually he was filipino
AMERICAN and proud of it!
Perhaps if Pak Vic had known about your faith before hand and you
could have had a dialogue with him, those instances which bugged you
so much never would have come to be. Timing in human relations is as
critical as in martial arts.
Approach him and be both gracious and humble as a student should. I
think you will find that he will welcome you. If he does and continues
his diatribe on "moo-slems" just shrug it off..he's not talking about
you, a humbled cheerful spirited martial artist...he's talking about
some guy in Bungholistan who blows himself up for no reason.
I was not there, but that is what I'd do. Good luck!
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
PS: I know that blowing off steam was the primary intent of your
message but it isn't helping your cause any. Remember your cause is to
learn Silat from those people who have it. Pak Vic, Paul and Uncle
Bill all do. Try and remember your ultimate goal. Teachers aren't
always perfect and 9/11 STILL has alot of people including me ruffled.
I have had a few Islamic acquaintances and have strived to learn about
them so that I don't harbor the same sort of hatred others do.
Sufis don't return hatred with hatred if you reread your post you'll
see how full of anger it is. It MAY or may not be justified, but it
offers no solutions. Once you fall down the path of anger, fear and
aggression(all 3 you mentioned in your post) you can be sure that it
will own you the duration of your lifetime...and beyond.
manuel_...@yahoo.com (Manuel) wrote in message news:<ffb13179.03022...@posting.google.com>...
> 786
> Selamat and Hormat. I wanted to make sure my message was posted with
> enough subject links to be hit by anyone who had anything to search
> for in the following subjects.
>
> I'm posting this because I've seen a lot of bickering back and forth
> between the DeThouars/Dutch-Indo crew and the Sanders crew and I
> thought I might add my own personal experiences and knowledge to this.
> There are several students out there of the Dutch - Indo groups who
> slander William Sanders and point out that his methodology is "wrong"
> and he is a "quack" etc. and point out that among the Naqshbandis and
> others of Islamic faith, such as the Silat Seni Gayong folks, that
> they also don't approve.
>
> First of all, let's get some things straight.
>
> Pendekar William Sanders has NEVER made any slanderous comments
> against Islam or Muslims. We have gurus in the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka
> lineage who are traditional Muslims, as a matter of fact.
>
> Now, let me tell you of my own little experience with Pak Victor
> DeThouars and Mr. Tim Lucas last year.
>
> In August or October of 2002 I had the chance to go up to NW
> Pennsylvania to do a seminar with Pak Victor deThouars of the Serak
> lineage. On the first day, I overheard Pak Vic talking about guns
> with Tim Lucas' brother-in-law, who was told by Pak Vic that his
> favorite weapon of choice was his 7mm high - powered rifle because "I
> use it to pick off the Muslims at a thousand yards. Ha ha." My jaw
> dropped, and that wasn't the end of it. During lunch he made the
> comment that he was glad there were pork and beans because Muslims
> couldn't eat pork and beans and "ha ha" again. But it gets better.
> Pak Vic asked me at one point which country had the best martial arts,
> and before I could answer I was told that "America does. We do. Do
> you know why?" I replied that it was because we had the best martial
> artists in the world, but Pak Vic corrected me: "No sir, because we
> have THE BOMB." Gee, what an enlightening thought -- equating
> spirituality and martial arts with weapons of mass destruction.
> Really mentally healthy and inspiring.
>
> On the second day of the seminar, during lunch, I was talking to Pak
> Vic and mentioned that I hoped to someday go to Indonesia and train
> with the silat masters, Pak Vic told me that I would never want to go
> there because it was a mess..."Unless you're Muslim," he said, "are
> you Muslim?" and he didn't expect my response, which was, "Actually,
> yes sir, I am." The room went silent. Pak Vic's IMMEDIATE response
> to me was exactly this: "THAT is the Religion of MY ENEMIES!" And
> his hands edged just a bit closer to the blades he had on his belt. I
> drove up 8 hours to train with this man, gave him the adat and hormat
> which he is always talking about and mysteriously devoid of suddenly,
> and this is how it was returned. Oh, but it didn't end there. Pak
> Vic began using expletives to tell me exactly what he thought about my
> religion and about the Prophet of Islam. And then he brought up 9/11.
> I immediately said, "What do a bunch of crazy fanatics have to do
> with me?" And his reply was this: "It was YOUR PEOPLE, SIR, PEOPLE
> OF YOUR RELIGION!" So suddenly, I'm lumped up with about maybe 1% of
> Muslims -- the extremists. I'll say it now and I've said it a
> thousand times -- I have NOTHING to do with the Wahhabis and came to
> Islam via the teachings of the sufis. My entire family is Christian
> and I've NEVER slandered ANYONE for their religion. No religion is
> the religion of my enemy. I think this is the proper spiritual
> attitude. Getting back to the story -- when I defended myself from
> this verbal assault, Tim Lucas immediately ganged up and said, "THEN
> WHY DID THEY DO IT???"
>
> There was one big young man with glasses who patted me on the shoulder
> after the whole argument and shook his head as if to say, "Don't
> worry, it's just the way he is." God bless him for his kindness. I
> didn't dare leave because after all of that, I half expected Pak Vic
> to send someone after me to kill me on the way home. I literally
> thought he was going to take me out back to butcher me after sending
> the others back from the log cabin to the gym next to it. I've never
> seen such hatred in someone's eyes for someone he doesn't even know.
>
> Pak Vic didn't let up. During the finish of the seminar he made the
> comment that "If I had been on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have
> NEVER done it!" and later on some other comment about "If they want to
> go to ALLAH, I'll send them to ALLAH!" That was before pointing out
> to others that I was a Muslim and that he unfortunately had to respect
> that (respect???) because it was written in the Constitution. In
> other words, if there was no law, I probably wouldn't be alive today.
> And at another point in time, he pulled me over to tell me that he was
> going to be watching me closely and was going to profile me because I
> was a "MOO - SLEM." He made smartass remarks about my being in
> Security and made me feel completely out of place. My religion was
> slandered, I was basically insulted, offended, and not-so-subtly
> threatened. Hey, thanks for the Adat and Hormat. When I commented
> that I was totally pro-American and even wanted to serve in Naval
> Reserve in OCS he looked at me and derisively told me I probably
> wouldn't be accepted because I was a "MOO - SLEM." When I went to Tim
> Lucas' house to pick up my stuff at the end, he had already put it out
> on the porch. The message was clear: "Get out." Hey, thanks. Adat
> and hormat, right?
>
> Well, Pak Vic's name is now registered with the FBI as a possible
> vigilante with anti-Islamic tendencies. One of my best friends, Tim
> M. Stone, works for the Bureau and I told him my whole experience
> within two days' return back to the DC area. By the way, the two top
> FBI agents on the Osama Bin Laden Research Team are American Muslims,
> so you know what you can do with your profiling and "you can't go into
> OCS" crap. And all of you Laryngitis/Serak players out there trying
> to talk about the so-called adat and hormat of your great teacher,
> save it. I've met the man and I know the truth.
>
> I did not give up and went on to find a legitimate silat teacher, Guru
> Russ Wilson of the Pukulan Cimande Pusaka lineage. Guru Besar Jak
> Othman, a highly respected traditional Silat player from Malaysia says
> of our lineage that it is "AUTHENTIC!" -- his exact words. And all
> this talk of the poor, helpless Dutch - Indos being the victims of the
> evil racism of those mean Indonesians (and this is why they don't have
> any legit lineage, right?) -- that's crap. If the Indonesians were so
> racist, what's William Sanders doing as a Pendekar accepted and
> certified by the Indonesians themselves???
>
> The TRUTH is that the Dutch were virtually the slave - masters of the
> Indonesians and inter-married with only the "high - caste" Indonesians
> who effectively gave up their own culture and adopted the Dutch
> culture, including the religion of Christianity. Traditional
> Indonesians are not Christian, they are mostly Muslim. The remainder
> are largely Hindus and Buddhists, all with an element of shamanism.
> The Dutch - Indos were asked to leave because during the war for
> Independence they sided with the Enemy, the Dutch; the slave -
> masters. During our war for Independence, the Torries were butchered
> and tortured -- tarred and feathered. I'd say the Dutch - Indos got
> off pretty easy by comparison, so don't cry about it. Sorry folks,
> that's the sad truth.
>
> As for the students of the DeThouars' brothers, the brothers
> themselves are all locked into a seemingly endless strand of
> contradictions and slanders against each other. All I have to say is
> "Thank God that's not my family." You guys may talk and talk and talk
> about the metaphysical aspects of silat, but NONE of you know them.
> Fact. Most of our magickal invocations are sacred Islamic du'as
> anyway. They're prayers which have metaphysical effects, simple as
> that. The remainder are from Kejawan -- the shamanistic mysticism,
> which is like a pre-Muhammadan Islamic mysticism anyway. And with
> these key facts in place, I'm off. Selamat and Hormat to all who
> deserve it and are TRUE silat players -- tempering their hearts and
> minds as well as their bodies.
Steve Gartin
As always, I find it unfortunate to download rma and find my teacher,
brother and mentors spoken ill of.
I realize that there are as many opinions as there are people and any
occurance will have at least two points of view. You have very eloquently
stated YOUR point of view and I support you in that. Freedom is a two-edged
sword - it is for everyone, or no one.
My disagreement with you does not relate to your faith or your martial
affiliation. Having studied the Qur'an, I know that it does not advocate
unprovoked war any more than the Torah - but I still find that many
religions do NOT follow the Book they espouse. Your harrowing trip to study
with Pak Vic, at least on its face, demonstrates your open minded approach
to martial arts, and I applaud that.
Where free-speach, freedom and open-mindedness fail to adequately excuse
your actions is when it comes to the FBI. I realize that Tim is your
friend, but my first-hand experience with the FBI is that they are 100%
corrupt and willing to lie, cheat, steal or commit any sort of crime to
further their current mission - which can change in 5 minutes. They have NO
honor, fidelity or morals and cannot be relied upon to be anything except
completely corrupt. That's the *nice* side. Then, they have unllimited
power to clandestinely perform whatever *mission* their evil desires or
political agenda dictates. Right now, I believe their agenda is a *patriot*
round-up campaign, so Muslim extremists play positively into their plan.
Problem is: when it comes time to round-up the martial artists, we're all in
trouble. Your friend Tim will turn on you in a heartbeat!
RMA is here so you can freely express your thoughts and opinions.
Naturally, the FBI monitors this newsgroup, and others, and your comments
would have been noted - kinda' accidentally. If you follow my posts, you
will notice that I consistently object to LEOs abusing their power. I
understand the need for law enforcement (I've run for Sheriff in Jefferson
County in the last two elections - and YHVH willing, I'll run again), but
using such power - just because you have a *friend* constitutes an abuse of
that power in my mind. Then to *spout off* that you did it, brings an image
of a bully into my mind - a cowardly bully. You could have spoken in
confidence with Tim and never mentioned a word of it out here - I think you
would have appeared much more prudent to just state your opinions - WITHOUT
the FBI reference.
I'm sure that when we meet, we will get along just fine. You appear to be a
thoughtful and nice young man from your posts. If indeed Pak Victor did
*everything* you accuse him of, he was wrong. He has his own discussion
group that you could have gone onto and addressed these issues where he
could respond to you in the presence of all his followers all over the
world. You don't really think that you are the ONLY Muslim who studies with
Pak Vic, do you? If he did NOT do anything you accuse him of, you were
wrong. Through a civil discussion on his *group* or here, on RMA, you could
have resolved the issue one way or the other - without involving the
undeniably corrupt FBI.
Bottom-line Manuel, regardless of the *facts* surrounding this disagreement,
I believe that you owe Pak Victor an apology for invoking the power to
destroy his life. My life has been reduced to rubble because *someone* went
to the FBI and said *he's a Christian Constitutional Patriot with a FreeMan
mindset and an 8th degree black belt who don't believe in the government.*
I cannot think of anyone on Earth that I would wish such destruction upon
and I really wish you had not committed such a heinous act against my
Brother Victor - you should apologize.
Have a most enjoyable day Manuel.
Steve Gartin- Free :-)>
Steve Gartin
What a sage response! What enlightened advice! What wonderful insight! I
really enjoyed reading your post!
Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
"Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.03022...@posting.google.com...
Chas
> .....To say that I drove up 9 hours each way
> -- spent time and gas money -- and paid about $150......just to
> slander Pak Vic (???) is ridiculous, as well as dishonest.
I heard it was six hours, and that the class applauded your zeal, as
they accepted you wholeheartedly.
Who knows, or cares, what your reasons are, or were.
> The bit
> about my being a spy for Pendekar Sanders was just silly, what a
> conspiracy theory! I've never even met Pendekar Sanders personally,
> but I know of him and I'm a student under one of his instructors since
> November of 2002.
You've presented as his shill before.
> And the FBI bit...that I'm "known as a flake" --
> oh, please! Aside from a bunch of speeding tickets and vehicle
> infractions from earlier years, I've got a clean record and work for
> an International Security Company. My friend Tim has come to me on
> more than one occassion with questions post 9/11.
Not my words; theirs.
> ......Besides that, it's just a tad mysterious
> that Mr. Clements was defending Victor's actions wholeheartedly as
> being within 'adat and hormat and then suddenly turned around 180
> degrees, denied the whole thing, and said that it would actually be
> against the "basic" laws of adat to act that way.
I read your screed and replied. Then I talked to two witnesses and
heard the story.
You were treated in adat of hormat according to your own story, and
treated with adat of hormat in theirs-
> Very interesting.
> I'm sure the readers will find it interesting also. And to everyone
> out there: believe what you want to believe. God knows best.
Don't call on God to witness your lie.
Chas
> .....
> It's fascinating how just a few postings ago you were defending his
> actions as a reasonable part of adat and hormat.
Given your story, it was true.
> Now, suddenly, you
> decide to deny everything and "It's not in his nature to break such a
> *basic* law of respect by intimidating a novice like that."
Given the real story, it is true.
> Nice
> twist. Really nice. Say what you want to say, Chas, you and I both
> know what happened there; and you and I both know Victor's character
> and prejudices.
Two other witnesses say it didn't happen- that you're a liar and a
goofball. They likened you to 'Goofy', and tried to help you with
small success.
and they've got the videotape.
Don't worry, you're going to have a chance to explain it all, a couple
of times. I have no doubt that the FBI will have some questions, and
then perhaps a court.
Your 'security company' may have some thoughts on why their employee
acts like an idiot too, but that's your own worry.
Chas
> ......So, go on, then, " Mr. Truthful," what silly things
> have I done involving the Bureau? I'd like to know -- I'd like to
> read the tall tales. I'm sure they'd be quite interesting.
No idea; I don't talk to them, with any luck they have nothing to say
to me.
The characterization was their own, and made for their own reasons.
You may be being watched for being a muslim extremist for all I know.
Conversos are notoriously zealous, and you may just be trying to make
your bones with the boys.
> I've been
> approached for advice on more than one occassion post 9/11 by my
> friend, and I doubt that this is because I am considered a "flake."
I'm sure he's 'splainin' that as we speak.
Gee, wonder what you did to *his* career by posting his name
internationally as hanging around with Goofy.
> This is the first claim I've ever filed with the FBI, and it wasn't
> even filed directly, it was a lead given to a close friend to follow
> up.
And posted in the international venue; good plan.
'Security' is your life, you say?
> By the way, seeing as how the argument was in the living room
> during lunch and how the rifle comment was done while everyone was
> stretching, inside the seminar, did the camera catch his little
> comment about "You see how your people are?" as I accidentally applied
> a locking technique a bit too hard on my partner?
Who knows it they caught every nuance of your stupidity.
I'm sure the FBI will review every little detail, interview the
witnesses, talk to their employee, and to you. They'll probably check
out your worship group, your spiritual advisor, your associates, your
employment, your past customers.
I can tell you from personal experience; they'll turn you upside down
and you better be cleanclean.
> What about his
> objective reaction to Ibu Jane's lending me her forearm support and
> their very brief exchange of glances? No, I imagine those tiny bits
> were cleverly deleted.
Probably in the $25,000 editing room in the basement, next to the
dartboard with Osama's picture on it; 'Goofy' indeed.
> What about his statements about "If I had been
> on that plane, those MOO-SLEMS would have never gotten away with it!"
True dat.
And, 'moos-lims' is the way I've always heard it pronounced.
> as we all sat around the pantjar on Sunday afternoon...or when Tim
> Lucas' kid asked him if he had ever killed anyone and he said that he
> only sent them back to their maker, adding quickly that "If they want
> to go to Allah, then I send them to Allah."
True dat.
I don't think he's a man who would stand in the way of anyone getting
their 72 virgins and all the little boys they could fuck.
> I bet those little bits
> got lost too, right? Smart move, but pretty obvious. On the other
> hand, to come outright and lie and show those students who were there
> that he is not only prejudiced but also a liar?
The witnesses say *you're* lying. The witnesses say you were treated
with special consideration and kindness. The witnesses say you're an
unstable flake, and kind of a weenie.
> And for your information, Mr. Clements, I have not been a spy or --
> what was your word -- "shill?" -- for Bill Sanders' group for a
> "while" but I have been a student for a few months. I met Guru Russ
> about two months after the incident with Pak Vic. I commented it with
> him since I was asking about their history and told him about my
> experiences with silat and silat players. To tell you the truth,
> their version of history seems much more credible to me -- especially
> after this.
They have a long history; and you have a history with them.
Anyone who wants to get a good idea of Bill Sanders' character simply
needs to flip through his boneheaded book, or watch him perform our
djurus.
> Your prejudices about Islam are one thing, but calling me
> a liar when everything I've said is true?
The witnesses say you're a liar; and say they have the tape to prove
it.
> If you know Pak Vic as well
> as you say you do, you KNOW deep in your heart that I'm not lying.
I knew you were lying from the first story.
Even accepting the circumstances entirely as you relate them, Victor
still treated you better than you deserve.
> Videotapes can be edited, Mr. Clements.
Oh, yeah; right.
This is *hours* of material- and you seem to figure quite prominently
because you required such special personal attention (from what I've
heard- not having vidded the tape myself).
There were a lot of people there, Manny; you're gonna be a star.
> The unwanted parts are
> deleted. Like I said, the argument I had with him was not even part
> of the training -- it was, as I said, in Tim Lucas' living room in his
> log cabin home during lunch on Sunday. Why would he tape an argument
> with a first - time student for a training vid???
They tape for candid teaching clips, special emphasis discourse- they
were taping everything, not just you.
> As for the little
> aftermath comments he made, I guess Pak Vic's "mureeds" (Arabic for
> initiates/apprentices, used most commonly in sufi circles;
> incidentally also used by Pak Vic) did a good job of editing the rest
> -- such as Pak Vic's comments on MOO-SLEMS when we were sitting around
> the pantjar. And I'm sure you know his distinct pronunciation of the
> word, as well. I bet I made that up, too, right?
Who says anything else *but* 'moos-lims'?
You don't like the pronunciation from a man who speaks five languages
and *grew up* with mooslims?
> I can understand your frustration with your friend's name being stated
> in a bad light. I can understand your prejudices about people of my
> faith. I can understand your dislike of Pendekar Bill Sanders given
> your ties to the DeThouars brothers. Throughout all of this, you
> still had my respect, even if I disagreed with you.
That's all inconsequential next the fact that you contacted the FBI.
We're used to the bullshit from Sanders and his ilk; no problem, they
tell the lie every time they stand up.
Then they sit down; generally pretty hard, as standing and talking
seems the extent of their silat.
> However, you have now testified a lie...and doing so, it leaves no
> question in my mind as to how much truth is in your other statements
> regarding your teachers and their lineage.
Ah; back to Sanders' attack on the lineage.
See; you're a shill.
The lineage is standing there on the kendang waiting for you to show
it's a lie.
Step up.
> Some kind of Christian you
> are, siding with your friend when he's in the wrong, and going so far
> as to lie for him.
Ah; a religious canard.
Is that a standard attack for you mooslims, or just for you
personally?
> But you know what? That's fine. You go ahead and
> lie for Pak Vic. All those students that were there at that seminar
> know what happened. They know. They saw, they heard. And they'll
> wonder, Mr. Clements, why their beloved teacher chose to lie about
> statements he made freely in their presence, and why the rest of those
> around him have chosen to lie as well, to cover up his tracks.
Funny; no one has the same story as you- they all think you're a
jackoff, and an ungrateful lying jackoff at that.
Your position is that the video will lie because they've edited out
all the stuff you are complaining about (trivial as it is in any
case).
Hmmmmm; who to believe?
> Tim Lucas' kid will remember, Mr. Clements, and it'll stay with him as
> he passes into adulthood.
Call him as a witness when you are taken to court, Manny; you're going
to need him.
> Why did Pak Vic lie? Why didn't he just
> say the truth about what he said? Wasn't it just his opinion? Why
> did they all lie about it?
Well, I'm sure the FBI will get to the bottom of it.
You called them; you're going to get to deal with them.
> So you go on and lie, Mr. Clements, and
> tell everyone that I drove up 9 hours in my beat up '88 civic just to
> "make up a story" about Pak Vic -- because that's what I like to do
> with my time and money, Mr. Clements, spend hours driving up to
> uncharted territory in the middle of nowhere, in an old car, risking
> my life in rainstorms, skidding back and forth, just to make up lies
> about a man whom I once held in high esteem.
Everybody's got to have a hobby, Manuel.
Yours seems a little weird, but who am I to say?
> Shame on you and may God
> forgive you. I have nothing more to say to you ever.
Well;
bye.
Badger Jones
<st...@thunderrock.net> wrote:
>Cool - er, I mean cold! - I don't go much East of I-25 (the wicked witch
>scares me) so it may be a while b4 I get up your way, but when I'm headed
>your direction I'll be sure to drop in and say hi! From your posts, I've
>grown fond of you and Badger.
I was chatting with Chas by email a while ago and expressed similar
sentiments, finding it ironic that for a guy I've never met, never
even spoken to on the phone, and possibly never will meet, that I
regard him as a friend.
Badger Jones
wrote:
>young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom (Badger Jones) wrote in message news:<3e5d238a...@news21.bellnet.ca>...
>
>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:27:11 GMT, Chas <gryp...@attbi.net> wrote:
>> >> Well, you have not yet felt the guys that daily shoot each other in East Baltimore.
>> >
>> >I've been shot three times; what do they do that's different?
>>
>> They get shot daily.
>
>I'm sure chas wasnt wearing a flag that said "SHOOT ME".
Sorry, perhaps a poor attempt at a joke - "guys that daily shoot each
other" - y'know, two guys shooting each other repeatedly?
Ah well, there goes my career in comedy.
Chas
>
> Wow Phillip!
> What a sage response! What enlightened advice! What wonderful insight! I
> really enjoyed reading your post!
As did I.
My only small quibble is that it assumes that Nunez told the truth at
all.
The consensus from both witnesses, that I spoke to, to the events was
that Nunez had no basis for any of his feelings of inferiority or
mistreatment because of his religion. (I had about an hours
conversation by phone with them.)
I think that's true.
I think he is looking for a public forum for a demonstration of his
newfound fidelity to his religion and lineage of study in martial art.
It's almost masochistic, and kind of a common phenomenon- vis John
Walker and the tennis shoe guy. Conversos, particularly to a small
radical sect, often seem to want to go to the illogical extreme to
take on the trappings of the new group. Nunez has picked two very odd
groups to espouse; the Sufi's, and the magickians.
The pity of it is that he couldn't just make a statement and allow it
to stand on it's own. He involved the government at a time of our
perception of a threat from the very group he's now representing.
He's going to involve a whole lot of muslims in his troubles- probably
guys that meant him no harm, and will be paid back by being
investigated down to their tennis shoes.
Daniel Winsor - ESP
Badger Jones wrote:
> Sorry, perhaps a poor attempt at a joke - "guys that daily shoot each
> other" - y'know, two guys shooting each other repeatedly?
<ba dump bump> Sorry I was late with the rim shot, boss.
> Ah well, there goes my career in comedy.
You're not bad, just sadly out matched by those here who aren't even
trying to be funny. ;-)
--
Dan Winsor
Mark Goldberg
>I just want to say a few things about islam and silat and them I'm off
>the subject.
>
>
>...For the record I do not support our policies toward Israel either; the
>zionists have done alot of damage in an area where the 3 religions
>used to coexist peacefully. People of the Jewish faith here in the US
>have a powerful lobby supporting this nation's efforts towards Israel.
>
>
>
I'm intruding here, but since you don't mind tossing out fabrications
as you did above,
I will impose my opinion, with todays news
article which is indicative of what you do with this kind of statement.
First- The 'zionists' a word which you use in a rather pejorative
fashion, where slaughtered by both faiths and degraded by both faiths,
and enslaved by both faiths- and the promise of their G-d that he would
bring them home, to ZION, to Israel, is the gift of his doing.
And has nothing to do with the generosity of others.
And the 'damage' the 'zionists' did, was this: they took their promised
land of 3,300 yrs, the claims of which you can verify
in your bible, if you like, and you'll see that their G-d and bible
didn't state they would conquer the world, just this small little piece of
real estate.
Which is too much for the muslims- ever; and you it seems.
It used to be that way for Chistians - but they have changed, and
learned, and grown, and they have earned their futures and places, in a
way that Muslims have yet to undergo.
The 'damage' the jewish people did, was rebuild a swamp land and desert
land, that was not a state after they were exterminated 2000 yrs ago and
exiled; that had _never_ had a capital or a nationstate owned by anyone
except the jewish people, and in which the jewish people had rebuilt the
land, bringing back christian and muslim population- times five. In
other words, the 'palestinians' are in the large majority recent
immigrants as are most of the jewish.
And the muslims didn't want any ownership by any dhimmi's, any jews- and
slaughtered them in the twenties, in hebron, and elsewhere, whilst
muslim immigration was enlarged, and the jewish were decreased.
Of course the slaughter of six million, unprevented, somehow allowed for
the reestablishment of this tiny sliver of a state, which the
arabs have always stated since they would annihilate again.
this is the 'damage? the jewish have done- they wanted to exist in
freedom in their land- without the slaughter promised and delivered to
them again and again.
Your statement reminds me of the murderer, who kills his parents- then
goes to court- and his defense is a plea for understanding
because he's an orphan.
Indeed- I have interposed my thoughts here- this is not my thread;
apologies again, I guess- but Philip, your fabrication disgusts me-
and just to give you another christian's viewpoint, with today's news:
Regards, and sadness...
Mark
__________
Palestinian Muslim religious intolerance
By Ryan Jones
February 27, 2003
JERUSALEM - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon Sunday confirmed reports that
Palestinian Arabs had reduced to a pile of rubble the tombstone marking the
traditional burial place of the biblical patriarch Joseph in the Samarian
town of Shechem.
While Arab Muslims have for more than two years desecrated the complex
surrounding Joseph's Tomb, the actual burial site - the authenticity of
which
archeologists say is backed by compelling evidence - had until sometime
during the past two weeks been left untouched.
The site corresponds to the account of Joseph's burial in the land of
Israel
given in the biblical book of Joshua:
"Joseph's bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were
buried
at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of
silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the
inheritance of Joseph's descendants."
Under the Oslo Accords, this Jewish and biblical holy site was to remain
under Israeli jurisdiction, despite being located in Shechem - an ancient
Jewish town now inhabited by Arabs under the control of the Palestinian
Authority.
On October 7, 2000, however, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak withdrew IDF
forces and evacuated Israeli civilians from the site after Arab attacks
against Joseph's Tomb intensified as part of the overall Palestinian
terrorist war against Israel.
PA assurances to Barak that the holy site would be protected from
desecration notwithstanding, the official destruction of the Joseph's Tomb
complex by the Palestinians began only hours after the last IDF soldiers
left
as a result of the increased dangers of continuing to guard the tomb.
Within hours of the IDF withdrawal, Palestinian Muslims stormed the site -
with no visible effort by PA to stop them - destroying all Jewish religious
objects, and began tearing apart the stone building over Joseph's Tomb with
pick axes.
Smoke was later seen rising from site, and the dome over the patriarch's
grave received a new coating of "Muslim green" paint as PA bulldozers began
clearing the compound area.
The recently discovered destruction of the actual tombstone, however, has
apparently crossed a redline with several Israeli leaders.
Natan Sharansky, slated to server as Minister of Diaspora Affairs in the
next government, issued a formal protest over the incident during Sunday's
cabinet meeting, calling on Israel's Foreign Ministry to publicize
photos of
the desecration in the foreign media.
"If we would have razed the gravesite of one of the founders of Islam,
billions of Muslims would have taken to the streets. It's inconceivable
that
the world should not know about this travesty," Sharansky reportedly said.
"We are talking about the tomb of one of the fathers of our nation," he
stressed during the cabinet meeting.
Though Sharansky's defense of Joseph's Tomb is indeed noble, his
suggestion
would likely produce little effect, as the international community has on a
consistent basis overlooked and ignored Muslim religious intolerance
against
Jews in the Middle east and the destruction of Jewish holy sites in Israel.
Some examples:
a.. Shortly after the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, the newly
formed PA appointed its own religious authority to oversee the Temple Mount
in Jerusalem - the Palestinian Waqf. For little less than a decade, the
Waqf
has engaged in a systematic program, documented by Israeli
archeologists, of
gutting the Temple Mount of all vestiges of its Jewish past to make room
for
a single massive Temple Mount mosque. The structural changes and
excavations
on the Mount are a violation of the Oslo Accords and several other
agreements
signed after. The international reaction has been nonexistent.
a.. Not days after the initial Muslim attack on Joseph's Tomb in October
2000, Palestinian Arabs from Jericho ransacked and destroyed the ancient
Bet
Shalom synagogue in the Jordan Valley. International reaction was
nonexistent.
a.. Palestinian Arabs have on a frequent basis attacked Jewish
worshippers
entering and leaving the tomb of the biblical matriarch Rachel near the
entrance to Bethlehem. These attacks have multiplied exponentially over
the
past two years. International reaction has remained nonexistent.
a.. For years Jewish worshippers at Judaism's holiest accessible site
- the
Western Wall in Jerusalem - have endured incessant stone throwing attacks
from Muslims on the Temple Mount platform some 100 feet above them. The
international reaction has been nonexistent.
No less worrying is the apparent apathy of the international community
towards documented Muslim intolerance and persecution of Christians in
Middle
East.
a.. For decades the Arab Muslim government in Khartoum has conducted a
brutal genocidal war against Sudan's black Christians in the south of the
country. International reaction has been extremely minimal at best.
a.. During the late 1970's and until the IDF invasion of 1982, the PLO
held
virtual mastery of southern Lebanon. During that time, hundreds, if not
thousands of Lebanese Christians were persecuted and killed by Yasser
Arafat's terrorist forces. Christian towns and holy sites were
systematically desecrated and taken over. The international reaction to
these atrocities was nonexistent.
a.. In almost all areas of the Muslim-controlled Middle East, Christians
and Jews live under what is known as "dhimmi" status - a subordinate
position
to their Muslim overlords. Dhimmi status usually affords one a life of
undeserved persecution. A recent example saw two Palestinian Arab brothers
subjected to local and official persecution and harassment after they
converted to Christianity.
Saudi Arabia goes one step further, forbidding the practice of any religion
but Islam on its soil under pain of death. The international reaction
remains limited to nonexistent.
On rare occasions, the international community does raise a collective
outcry over Muslim destruction of holy sites belonging to other religions -
such as the reaction to the recent Taliban destruction of an ancient statue
of Buddha in Afghan
Mark Goldberg
the last section was deleted inadvertently_
Mark
---------------------
...... Such extraordinary instances, however, seem to do little but provide
legitimacy to the assertion that the voiced religious concerns of others
mean
little to the Muslim world.
The destruction of Joseph's Tomb is symptomatic of a problem that would
not
be solvable by mere words of protest, even if any were heard.
Islam has grown in leaps and bounds over the past five decades by
exploiting
Judeo-Christian religious tolerance in pursuit of its Koranic quest to
subjugate its two main religious rivals, where necessary by force.
The destruction of Joseph's Tomb in Shechem is only the most recent
pro-active Arab effort to undermine the legitimacy of Judaism's claim to
its
ancient homeland and ensure eventual complete and undisputed Islamic
control
of the entire Middle East.
Phillip Inoy
was telling at least HIS version of the truth. Unfortunately being
right is not always the correct solution. What may have happened is
that Pak Vic may have been spouting some rather patriotic rhetoric
which may have been colored by anti-islamism. I understand. Frankly
9/11 qualifies as the biggest sucker punch in history. Because the
"brothers in faith" concept I touched on earlier makes it difficult to
distinguish which people of Muslim faith are truly on our side, they
have to do it for us...like the Japanese Americans did when they went
to war on the US's behalf or the Pilipino Americans like Leo Giron.
Everyone from the greatest martial artist on down has put their foot
in their mouth at someone else's expense. No one is immune. What
distinguishes the scholarly warrior from the bar thug, the sufi from
the shite..er shiite is timing and a sense of etiquette.
Confucianism is a great standard to go by since it is the most widely
applicable to martial arts. What would have been proper, assuming Pak
Vic did say something was to wait for the proper, PRIVATE moment and
without confrontation, explain his faith and his feelings.
Now I ask all on either side; what master wouldn't appreciate a
student like this. Someone who can display a sense of PROPRIETY even
if the master didn't or lost his cool for a moment? What master
wouldn't go out of his way to teach extra, a student who displays this
kind of caliber?
I wasn't there. I'm not really assuming Pak Vic said anything
inappropriate, but for the sake of argument, if he did...Manny lost a
brilliant opportunity to help his teacher save face and even enlighten
him a bit on the true nature of Islam as opposed to your garden
variety Bungholistan terrorist native.
My bagua teacher and senior in Gao style is Bernie Langan. He is a
murid of Pak Vic's and Bernie's reputation in studying MA's and
choosing(receiving instruction from) teachers is impeccable. I've met
Pak Vic and Uncle Bill several time and neither displayed towards me
anything less than the utmost kindness nor did they attempt to hide
their silat as some do. When I saw Uncle Bill take out Bear(whos like
6'4" 350)Roberts in the demo..I learned more about MA in 3 seconds
than in qute some time. He displayed his version of his family's Silat
with such "truth" I don't know what else to call it. It was alive and
real.
Manny's mentioning of the family squables between the brothers is
distasteful. What they say is their business. It is NOT the business
of their students. They are brothers and I ask you what brothers don't
fight? It is the students' job to keep their eyes open, ears open and
mouth shut.
In truth, we should help Manny realize that he's managed to be on the
wrong track(regardless of whether he's found another silat home). We
should exercise as much propriety and patience as we can. Don't give
him any further reason to stray or bring hatred towards any of the de
Thouars clan. Rather, be at ease with him. If we don't give him
anything to push against, he can't push. Many muslims are
argumentative and nitpicky.
It would be nice to see the proper etiquette exercised on our side of
the equation. Manny's so blind with ANGER he can't see the forest for
the trees. He can't help himself right now but we can through patience
and kindness. We martial artists can't afford anger, fear or
aggression. We know that that path leads to mental slavery and
suffering. Sufis are against such things BTW. Just read Rumi. :-)
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, Cabales Serrada Eskrima
"Steve Gartin" <st...@thunderrock.net> wrote in message news:<3e5e1...@omega.dimensional.com>...
Chas
> .......
> In truth, we should help Manny realize that he's managed to be on the
> wrong track(regardless of whether he's found another silat home).
Even if we grant that everything Nunez said was true- in terms of the
events, not his perception of their implications- the unacceptable
part was involving the FBI and fabricating all that shit about being
scared of physical assault, back alley stuff, implications of some
sort of active muslim-hunting-
That's totally unacceptable behaviour- nothing happened to the guy. He
came and went, enjoyed the seminar, got applause for traveling so far;
nothing happened to him.
Complaining to the police about some sort of fantasy is bad manners at
the least, and mental disturbance at worst.
Manny seems kind of a goof by all accounts except his own.
Chas
> .......
> Do your own research. Muslims are not even allowed to have a mind or
> self-determinism. This kind of makes practicing martial arts,
> mysticism, voodoo, witchcraft and taking drugs and narcotics to
> "enhance" the effects of silat (in the name of islam) problematic.
The Islam of Indonesia is very different from what is practiced in any
other place.
The 'mysticism' comes from the 'animist-shamanist' guys. The thin
veneer of muslim credo is about the same as Christians and Christmas
Trees.
Except in the manner of Sanders and his ilk, the mystical aspects
never supplant the hard work and discipline of warrior practice, they
are in addition to the physicality.
> .....Remind yourself that
> it was islam that destroyed the Khanate.
Yeah; there's a little heartbreaker.
Phillip Inoy
many Jews on both sides of the Atlantic have often been slippery on
this subject.
A Jew: is a person who professes some degree in the faith of Judaism,
whether orthodox, reform, Hasid, or some such sect of faith.
An Israeli: a person born or naturalized by legal process in the
nation state of Israel, as defined by its geographical borders and is
subject to its laws.
Thusly, a Christian born in Bethlehem is an Israeli, but not a Jew.
Up until the British involvement in the middle east and the US
involvement vis a vis the League of Nations. Israel did not exist.
Though there were Jews and Christians in the area they were a distinct
minority. In fact for some time the area was called Palestine. For
some several hundred years the 3 religions coexisted.
The biblical claim by one of the 12 tribes of Judah to the land that
is now Israel is just that a biblical one involving only those who are
descendants of that line of people.
Mr Goldberg, answer me this question. just how many current Israeli
citizens are descendant from that particular tribe of Judah. Sir,
regardless of their number I support their right to be there. To live
there peacefully and share as they did previous to Colonialist
involvement, with all other people who were then living there. You
will find that MOST of the people currently living their are NOT
decendent of that line of Jacob.
Most of Israel is populated by ZIONISTS
Let's define the term so as to not offend you, you pompous prick.
ZIONIST: A potentially wealthy, politically active person via lobby,
NOT of ANY of the 12 tribes of Judah, let alone a decendent of Jacob,
converted to the Jewish faith, regardless of sect, who wishes to
pilgrimage and make his home in the land now currently defined by
geo-political boundaries as Israel.
Mr Goldberg, I hope that was politically correct enough for you. To
continue...
It is my strong belief that a Zionist has NO claim to the land of
Israel. Furthermore even if they did, what ever land the receive
should be given to them after ALL THOSE WHO LIVED THERE PREVIOUSLY
were able to keep their land REGARDLESS OF FAITH.
It is HISTORICAL FACT sir that Zionism is almost solely responsible
for the current population of Israel whether emigres from Russia,
Germany, the US, or various parts of the world.
The sad fact is that losing a war, or being a casualty of war does not
usually make you the owner of someone elses land...REGARDLESS OF
FAITH.
I only say this because I'm tired of people playing the holocaust card
in such a way that I am supposed to support commiting American money,
weapons of destruction, military training, and other forms of AID to
an "artificial nation"
where most of the people currently living there have no right to be.
The jews, the christians and the arabs and their descendants who can
legally claim living status there PRIOR to colonialist involvement
deserve to live there and did so peacefully until we, the Brits, the
French, etc. decided we couldn't keep our grubby fingers out of the
commerce routes of the Meditteranean.
America has its own problems. From a war treatise perspective we
should have sided with the Arabs as we did in the early 20's so we
wouldn't have an oil war now. There aren't as many Jews or Israelis as
there are Muslims and Arabs.
We can handle a terrorist threat from a small community, but we chose
the larger candidate to be our enemy and they happen to support
Jihad...a death policy we Americans have a tough time dealing with. I
would rather have the richer, more populous Arabs on our side than the
smaller Jewish population FROM A WAR STANDPOINT. However, 9/11 pretty
much decided that most of the Arab nations will likely become either a
Sea of Glass or a US protectorate, after a fashion.
I have nothing against Jews, just the dumb ones. I have nothing
against Muslims unless they are from Assholistan and practice blowing
up each other and others. I have nothing against Christians unless
they're like Oral Roberts locking himself in a tower and saying "send
10 million or God will call me home" L.O.R.D.....Let Oral Roberts Die.
Mr. Goldberg, your miserable pedantic post was little more than "I'm a
Jew, someone died in the holocaust..feel sorry for me" post. For the
record Mr Goldberg. I DO NOT FEEL SO SORRY FOR YOU THAT I THINK WE
SHOULD COMMIT AMERICAN RESOURCES TO THE CONTINUAL DEFENSE of ISRAEL.
Without our support, they would crumble and it would go back to the
people who were the majority for the last 2000 years...the palestines.
Maybe, though I doubt it now, they'd let those who have legitimate
claim by descendancy stay...but again, I doubt it.
Finally Mr Goldberg. The sheer idiocy you spout makes me doubt you
were someone who survived Auschwitz. Anyone regardless of faith
surviving in those camps are truly heroic...but you don't rob Peter to
pay Paul. The people who died there cannot benefit from creating a
nation. We should have built them a monument instead. The people who
survived are surely tougher than those Jews today, born largely with a
silver spoon in their mouths.
Since they have so much money, let them do to Jerusalem what the
muslims do to Mecca....PILGRIMAGE there. That way it won't cost the US
money. That way we're(the US) not enemies of a potentially dangerous
race of people who add numbers to their "brotherhood" via conversions
of faith and indoctrinate them with a terroristic mentality.
I do not believe that it is in the interests of America to support
Israel any longer. We saved what Jews we could in WW2 from the Nazi
terror. The Jews that died by right deserve a monument befitting their
suffering. The Jews that lived owe the US their undying gratitude. We,
the US, don't owe the Jews, the Zionists, or the state of ISRAEL one
fucking thing. They owe the US our weight in diamonds for what WE have
done for them and don't you ever, under any circumstances EVER forget
it or say otherwise you pompous bigoted prick. Many American men died
so that your last name could have a stereotype of wealth and not as
adescendant of someone who inhaled xyklon-b gas.
In the last 40 years both Jew and Muslim alike in that region have
committed heinous atrocities. Your list below of recent Palestinian
crimes didn't include any Israeli ones...don't even THINK that there
aren't any or even think of expousing on this list that there were
none. NO one will believe you. In fact, you are being as one sided as
I'd expected you to be.
To think that your zionist brothers and their enemies can shed so much
blood on holy ground and still call yourselves Children of yes.. I'll
spell it for you since your a Jew ..."God" ..is blasphemous beyond
measure. All of those people, Rachel, Jacob, the prophets...do you
think that war on holy ground is a fitting testament to what they
tried to teach us? Impudence beyond measure. May God forgive you...I'm
trying to.
Members of all three faiths have shed blood in the name of God. I
think God wans us to stop that. War is an economic machine with human
consequences, it is not a machine of faith with God's love as a
consequence.
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote in message news:<b3lste$q7v$1...@news.monmouth.com>...
Phillip Inoy
In the end I consider myself a great judge of character and martial
ability. Pak Vic has the "mojo baby YEAH!!!" in my book. As I said
originally, it would be to everyone's benefit, especially to Manny to
end this and treat it as a 'bubble of confusion' from which we've all
awakened from, learned from, and should try desperately not to repeat.
Humility goes along way to erase occasional bouts of instantaneous
stupidity.
Besides, I saw Sanders' website and it was gay. It was like Aleister
Crowley meets the Simpsons. Anyways. I don't know their skill level
but Jeff Peterson lives in Michigan I think and its too fucking cold.
I'd rather California anyday.
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
Chas <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3E5EB482...@attbi.com>...
Steve Gartin
economic boundries!
"Badger Jones" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
news:3e5e31a0...@news21.bellnet.ca...
Mark Goldberg
>Ok Mr Jew. Lets set a few terms straight for definitional purposes;
>many Jews on both sides of the Atlantic have often been slippery on
>this subject.
>
You know your in the presence of greatness when someone tries to tell
you just 'who' you are- slippery- ugh
you 're reeking here-
>
>A Jew: is a person who professes some degree in the faith of Judaism,
>whether orthodox, reform, Hasid, or some such sect of faith.
>
thanks for the kindergarten lesseon- is this what you do Guro, for the
students? Sagely advice like this. They must be truly stirred with this
nonsense.
remind me to stick a hat pin thru my frontal lobes and tell you what a
christian is, what silat is, what you are... yeah! your kind of thinking.
Most of Israel is populated by ZIONISTS
No- deepthinker.
Here- let me give you a clue- put down the beercan
It's populated by- people.
And the jewish ones, are jewish people. Despite your demented screwing
up of history.
Just people.
>
>Let's define the term so as to not offend you, you pompous prick.
>
Go for it_Guro
>
>ZIONIST: A potentially wealthy, politically active person via lobby,
>NOT of ANY of the 12 tribes of Judah, let alone a decendent of Jacob,
>converted to the Jewish faith, regardless of sect, who wishes to
>pilgrimage and make his home in the land now currently defined by
>geo-political boundaries as Israel.
>
>Mr Goldberg, I hope that was politically correct enough for you. To
>continue...
>
>
I love it- your a dopey hate freak, and too dumb to even know it!
Ah well- potentially weatlthy, ugh... you two bit dime store nobody- you
hate so goooood.
You should read some more history books before you put up your patina of
peace and brotherhood- one scratch or two and your veneer comes right off.
G-d., how the fuck do you stand yourself looking in the mirror? Oh well,
rhetorical question... never mind
>It is my strong belief that a Zionist has NO claim to the land of
>Israel. Furthermore even if they did, what ever land the receive
>should be given to them after ALL THOSE WHO LIVED THERE PREVIOUSLY
>were able to keep their land REGARDLESS OF FAITH.
>
>It is HISTORICAL FACT sir that Zionism is almost solely responsible
>for the current population of Israel whether emigres from Russia,
>Germany, the US, or various parts of the world.
>
Except of course- that the mass slaughter by the pompous murderers of
the earth
brought them home- even when they tried to live amongst them. Yes- you
are a humble man,
full of humility- and love- all that murder, all that torture, all that
enslavement, all that
degradation of human ideals- that TOO brought them to that parched piece
of land that was called Israel- and a gift of G-d.
I like to think the whole world's a gift- of course- then there's people
like you in it- but that's another story- GURO.
>.... I
>would rather have the richer, more populous Arabs on our side than the
>smaller Jewish population FROM A WAR STANDPOINT. However, 9/11 pretty
>much decided that most of the Arab nations will likely become either a
>Sea of Glass or a US protectorate, after a fashion.
>
> "America has its own problems. From a war treatise perspective we
> should have sided with the Arabs as we did in the early 20's so we
> wouldn't have an oil war now. There aren't as many Jews or Israelis as
> there are Muslims and Arabs.
Let me be a judge of your character, for the moment- all ego aside- do
you know the difference between you and I??
I'm serious here.
It's that you're a pimp...and I'm a man.
We'll both just be living out our lives- but I wouldn't trust the likes
of a pimp like you
with my beloved America,
nor my land of Israel
Nor the common good of others- you strike me as a laundryman- guro; a
moneypeddler
That was Billy Carters philophy, the beercan, the slick oilsaleman, very
unchristian, but his bro- the prez, he gave it that universalist
christian ring, soon thereafter- got the noble prize- that nuclear
thing, in Korea- big success.
You remind me more of fat Billy- guro- you can't even hide your coarse
money counting ways as you did above.
My word- it's all about money and your own lame ass, right there -slickster?
>
>I have nothing against Jews,-
>
Who cares? Your words have no character, nor do you; no meaning, just
that ugliness - so who gives a fig about your universal loyalties- you
sell to the highest bidder it seems.
> I have nothing
>against Muslims
>
who cares? see above
>Finally Mr Goldberg.
>
>
Oh- don't be formal on my account- from Mr Jew to Mr Goldberg- your such
a gentleman
>....We should have built them a monument instead. The people who
>survived are surely tougher than those Jews today, born largely with a
>silver spoon in their mouths.
>
Your an idiot- aren't you? you don't even know it?
>
>Since they have so much money, let them do to Jerusalem what the
>muslims do to Mecca....PILGRIMAGE there.
>
Listening to the likes of you, makes o want to barf!
>....To think that your zionist brothers and their enemies can shed so much
>blood on holy ground and still call yourselves Children of yes.. I'll
>spell it for you since your a Jew ..."God" ..is blasphemous beyond
>measure. All of those people, Rachel, Jacob, the prophets...do you
>think that war on holy ground is a fitting testament to what they
>tried to teach us? Impudence beyond measure. May God forgive you...I'm
>trying to.
>
You- the likes of you- have no business doing anything but trying to
learn something of what it is to be a bit more a man. You aren't even
that. Guro
In fact the difference between you and me is simple- no kidding-
Your a pimp, and I'm a man.
Just a man. That's all.
You- your a billy carter, beer guzzler philosopher with a handle; guro
You don't know a damm thing about history, about facts- but you preach
and preen with your pseudoreligious
patina.
My word- no kidding- I honestly feel like taking a bath- you miserable
excuse for whatever the fuck you are.
and I post these words of some thinkers, some men- who I respect; unlike
my disgust for the likes of the pimps of the world like yourself.
At least this will wash off the filth you deposited here; gross- and too
fucked up to even know it!
Oh- and for the record- I wish Israel would tell us to take a hike with
our demands about which way the sun comes up- everytime they get blown up.
We just might learn who our friends are- we Americans need to consider
this before we go down the socialist pipe to nowhere, with all the other
complainers.
Mark
--------------------------
Michael Long
The Cradle of Civilization, Again
No more Cold Wars
The removal of Iraq as an international troublemaker is going to change
the world for the better.
Once the current Iraqi regime is removed, American soldiers will find
massive and hidden stockpiles of restricted materiel and weapons. The
true scope of Saddam's ability to support terrorism will be laid out for
the world.
Iraqis, and a significant population within the Arab world, will see by
America's magnanimous post-war behavior that U.S. intentions were as
stated: the removal of a source of mischief and weapons of mass
destruction (WMD), with the splendid byproduct of the liberation of the
Iraqi people from a murderer-dictator.
More important, though, is that the deposing of Saddam Hussein will mark
the start of a long-term effort toward a restructured and, eventually,
peaceful Middle East.
The world's long history of violent despots teaches at least these
things: force is the universal language of dictators; it is the only way
to get terrorists' attention; and even lovers of peace must be fluent to
survive --- especially lovers of peace. A historic display of American
military might --- Iraq 2003 will make the Gulf War look like a cudgel -
will give our enemies pause.
Expect North Korea's Kim Jong Il to return to his senses, such as they
are. Kim wants to stay in power. His nuclear adventurism lately is a
means to that end --- he cannot afford to run his own country, let alone
run a war around the globe. In a little-noted but telling debate on
"Meet The Press" on February 23, Richard Perle indicated that the U.S.
would almost certainly strike at North Korea if it proceeded too far
down the nuclear road. Kim won't attack the South (destroying the
infrastructure and resources that he covets) unless such a move is part
of regional suicide mission before he is deposed or killed. Kim will
find a way back to the negotiating table. However, the world will
recognize his real motivation: the intimidating power -- and newly shown
will -- of America to dispose of WMD threats.
The mullahs in Iran will silence themselves considerably, having become
next-door neighbors to America's vested investment in a new Middle East,
and the attendant population of armed forces. Iranian leaders know they
are about one sneer away from revolution among their own people, and
that their country would make a nice annex to Iraq's remodeling.
The rest of the Islamic world will be relieved by the end of Saddam, but
will also find itself under a new constraint: American force will no
longer be only reactive; it will be available as a pre-emptive option
against supporters of terrorism. This will start the countdown on the
existence of terror-friendly regimes in countries such as Libya, Sudan,
Egypt, Syria, and others. Additional pressure on those governments will
come when the success of reconstituted Middle East states creates new
opportunities and improved quality of life for their neighbors.
The goal of the war on terror began with a bold idea, to end the notion
that civilized societies can tolerate terrorism of any kind. In a very
short time, this has evolved into something more, to match U.S. reactive
policies to pre-emptive initiatives against grave threats. With the
hair-trigger potential of WMD, and the proliferation of such weapons
into the hands of groups with no geographic location to defend, there
was really little choice, if the safety of the nation was to be
preserved and not left to the goodwill of our enemies.
It will be a frightening trip from here to there. There are significant
numbers of people in Europe and America who insist that it is better to
negotiate truce after truce instead of eliminating a threat that is
beyond the pale. These are the same people who believe that any peace is
better than war --- the same people who refuse to recall, for instance,
such a "peace" after World War I, which led directly to World War II. It
is easier to believe happy talk; some otherwise intelligent individuals
will be happy to do just that. Yet reason and goodwill cannot fix
everything.
The Cold War was a spectacular mistake. Decades of the fear of mutually
assured destruction -- MAD, as it is called -- would have never occurred
if the U.S. had had the foresight and will to act after World War II.
This time, we have a chance to head off a far more dangerous cold war
with radical Islam. Imagine the folly of fighting a cold war with the
enemy already foreswearing "cold."
Iraq is the cradle of civilization. Ironically, it is about to become
just that once again.
----------------------------
An unconventional Arab viewpoint
Posted: February 24, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Editor's note: The following column is adapted from remarks made by
Joseph Farah at a Christian Coalition symposium on Islam Feb. 15 in
Washington, D.C., and subsequently broadcast twice on C-SPAN. Hundreds
of C-SPAN viewers have written requesting transcripts of the speech.
This is an abbreviated version of the talk.
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
I've been really bugged, especially since Sept. 11, 2001, by all the
self-proclaimed Arab-American and Muslim-American spokesmen I see on the
talking-head shows.
What bugs me is the way they show no appreciation for just how tolerant
and open-minded and non-judgmental the American people really are toward
them and the Arab and Muslim world. Americans are so good, so fair and
so understanding. They are anything but quick to generalize and
stereotype – even when doing so would clearly be in their best interest.
Over a two-day period this week, I had to take nine different airline
flights and go through nine different airport security checkpoints.
Not once during that two-day period did I ever get a second glance from
any security person. Not once was I subject to any extra checks.
Now, I am an Arab-American. I have an Arab face and an Arab name. But I
didn't get a second look. Meanwhile, I saw young mothers with little
babies struggling to make it through extra security. I saw little old
grandmothers facing the indignities of extra checks.
And all the while, the Muslim-American lobbies and the Arab-American
anti-discrimination groups are denouncing this country for being racist
and for profiling.
It's just not true.
Worse yet, there is every common-sense reason for it to be so.
The threat of terrorism in the United States does come largely, if not
exclusively, from Arabs and from Muslims. We ignore that fact at our own
peril.
When I fly to the Middle East, I often fly El Al. In fact, it is my
preferred carrier. Why? Because it has great security. I know, because
of my name and my Arabic ancestry, I'm going to have my bags searched
more scrupulously than the average American.
Do I mind?
Absolutely not. In fact, I am grateful. Because I know these security
people are not only protecting the other passengers, they are protecting me.
It only makes sense to do this kind of profiling – especially when we
are in a war where our very way of life is at stake.
For those of you who have not read my writings on the Middle East and
the Islamic-West conflicts, I don't think these battles are over
misunderstandings.
I don't believe they are the result of a failure to communicate.
I don't believe they are caused by an inability to compromise.
I believe they are caused by evil people doing evil things, pure and simple.
I come at this issue of the Middle East a little bit differently than
just about anyone else. I'm an Arab-American Christian journalist. I've
arrived at my conclusions largely through first-hand experience covering
the Mideast on the ground.
Throughout my 25-year career as a daily newspaperman, I've had two
principal beats – Hollywood and the Middle East. You might wonder what
these two beats have in common.
The common denominator is that they both deal in the realm of unreality.
They both rely on myths. In fact, the imagination of the Arabs in
crafting fables, reinventing history and fictionalizing facts would make
Oliver Stone blush. And it is those myths of the Middle East that I want
to address today in the short time we have.
What is this debate all about? What are the real roots of this conflict?
If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a
homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple,
right?
Wrong. In fact, these two demands are nothing more than strategic
deceptions – propaganda ploys. They are nothing more than phony excuses
and rationalizations for the terrorism and the murdering of Jews. The
real goal of those making these demands is the destruction of the state
of Israel.
The proof of the pudding is that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war,
there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland. Why?
In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Israelis captured Judea, Samaria
and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from
Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. Why did
the so-called Palestinians suddenly discover their national identity
after Israel won the war. Why wasn't there a demand for a Palestinian
homeland before?
The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The
first time the name was used was after 70 A.D. when the Romans committed
genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of
Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be
known as Palestine. The name was derived, we think, from the
Philistines, a people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier.
Contrary to what Yasser Arafat will tell you, the Philistines were
extinct by that time. Arafat likes to pretend his people are the
descendants of the Philistines. Actually, the name was simply a way for
the Romans to add insult to injury to the Jews – not only were they
annihilated, but their land was renamed after people they had conquered.
Palestine has never existed – before or since – as a nation state. It
was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by
the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The
British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people
as their homeland. Who rejected that idea? The Arabs. The Jews could
have no place in the Mideast. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Now, at least to Western audiences, Arafat and some other so-called
"moderate" Arab leaders will tell you that it's OK for the Jews to have
their homeland, too – side-by-side with the Arabs. Why wasn't it OK in 1948?
There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct
Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine
governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from
Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs
control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents
one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.
But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is
ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. No matter how
many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.
Arafat himself explained the ploy of negotiations with Israel in a 1994
speech in South Africa – in English. He's explained it in Arabic dozens
of times.
First we create our own state, then we use that state to liberate all of
Palestine. That's the goal. It's always been the goal.
Arafat and his supporters will tell you the reason a Palestinian Arab
state is needed is because Arabs were forcibly removed from their
property in the 1948 war. But listen to what the Arabs were saying about
the refugee issue after that war.
* "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state.
The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share
in the solution of the problem."
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in
an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.
* "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave
their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab
invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
* "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now
from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have
neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and
penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon
amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
* "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem
appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the
Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
* "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating
Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the
Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women
and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the
Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties
to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
I could go on and on with this forgotten – or deliberately obscured –
history. But you get the point. There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase
Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened. There are, instead,
plenty of historical records showing the Jews pleading with their Arab
neighbors to stay and live in peace and harmony. Yet, despite the clear,
unambiguous words of the Arab observers at the time, history has been
successfully rewritten to turn the Jews into the bad guys.
The Arab states that initiated the hostilities have never accepted
responsibility – despite their enormous wealth and their ability to
assimilate tens of millions of refugees in their largely under-populated
nations. And other states have failed to hold them accountable.
Today, of course, this cruel charade continues. The suffering of
millions of Arabs is perpetuated only for political purposes by the Arab
states. They are merely pawns in the war to destroy Israel.
There were some 100 million refugees around the world following World
War II. The Palestinian Arab group is the only one in the world not
absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Since then,
millions of Jewish refugees from around the world have been absorbed in
the tiny nation of Israel.
It makes no sense to expect that same tiny Jewish state to solve a
refugee crisis it did not create.
Do you think the Arabs really care about the plight of their refugees? I
would submit to you that Israel, of all the Middle East states, has
treated the Arab refugees with more fairness and more compassion.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about:
The Jordan Times reports that "Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, who have
long been denied many civil rights including the right to work, now face
a new obstacle in their precarious lives."
Under a bill introduced by parliament last year, Palestinian Arabs will
be deprived of their right to own property. Those who already own
property will not be able to pass it on to their children.
Now just imagine if Israel passed such a law? Can you imagine the
international outcry? What would the United Nations have to say about
this? How would the media establishment in the West view such a
draconian ploy?
Yet, this is happening in an Arab country virtually without comment –
except here.
And take a look at the transparent rationale for this action in Lebanon,
as described in the Jordan Times: "The Lebanese parliament passed the
law on the grounds that it wants to protect the right of the Palestinian
refugees to return eventually to their homes which they fled after the
creation of the state of Israel on Palestinian lands in 1948."
Don't you love that? "We are protecting your rights by denying your rights."
While Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinian
Arabs – especially those victimized by the 1948 war – the Arab nations
have only sought to exploit their misery. That exploitation continues
today. It is overt. It is a matter of law. Yet the world sees it not.
Ever since I wrote a column in October 2000 called "Myths of the Middle
East," readers from around the world have asked me what is meant by the
term "Palestinian."
The simple answer is that it means whatever Yasser Arafat wants it to mean.
Arafat himself was born in Egypt. He later moved to Jerusalem. Indeed,
most of the Arabs living within the borders of Israel today have come
from some other Arab country at some time in their life.
Arabs continue to flock into Israel today. They continue to move into
the Palestinian Authority. They immigrated there even before it left
Israeli control.
The Arabs have built 261 settlements in the West Bank since 1967. We
don't hear much about those settlements. We hear instead about the
number of Jewish settlements that have been created. We hear how
destabilizing they are – how provocative they are. Yet, by comparison,
only 144 Jewish settlements have been built since 1967 – including those
surrounding Jerusalem, in the West Bank and in Gaza.
Is this a new phenomenon? Absolutely not. This has always been the case.
Arabs have been flocking to Israel and its environs ever since it was
created and even before, coinciding with the wave of Jewish immigration
into Palestine prior to 1948.
Winston Churchill said in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs
have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has
increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish
population."
And that raises a question I never hear anyone ask: If Israel's policies
make life so intolerable for Arabs, why do they continue to flock to the
Jewish state?
This is an important question as we see the Palestinian debate now shift
to the issue of "the right of return."
According to the most liberal claims by Arab sources, some 600,000 to
700,000 Arabs left Israel in and around 1948 when the Jewish state was
created. Most were not forced out by Jews, but rather left at the urging
of Arab leaders who had declared war on Israel.
Yet, there are far more Arabs living in these territories now than ever
before. And many of those who left in 1948 and thereafter actually had
roots in other Arab nations.
This is why it is so difficult to define the term "Palestinian." It
always has been. What does it mean? Who is a "Palestinian"? Is it
someone who came to work in Palestine because of a bustling economy and
job opportunities? Is it someone who lived in the region for two years?
Five years? Ten years? Is it someone who once visited the area? Is it
any Arab who wants to live in the area?
Though Arabs outnumber Jews in the Middle East by a factor of about 100
to one, the Arab population of Palestine was historically extremely low
– prior to the Jews' renewed interest in the area beginning in the early
1900s.
For instance, a travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906
by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic
Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was
minimal.
The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom
7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.
"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite
of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed
property," the book states.
Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and
represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906.
Why was the Muslim population so low? After all, we're told that
Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. Surely, if this were a
widely held belief in 1906, more of the devout would have settled there.
The truth is that the Jewish presence in Jerusalem and throughout the
Holy Land persisted throughout its bloody history, as is documented in
Joan Peters' milestone history on the origins of the Arab-Jewish
conflict in the region, "From Time Immemorial."
It is also true that the Arab population increased following Jewish
immigration into the region. The Arabs came because of economic
activity. And, believe it or not, they came because there was more
freedom and more opportunity in Israel than in their own homelands.
It's time to inject the component of freedom into the discussion. In
recent years Freedom House, the human-rights organization that monitors
the way the nations of the world treat their own citizens, has found a
there's a big trend worldwide away from totalitarianism and
authoritarianism and toward freedom – except in the Arab world.
There are 22 Arab states – all varying degrees of police states. If the
U.S. continues pushing for a Palestinian state under the leadership of
Yasser Arafat, there will be 23.
Let's hope and pray that this administration is beginning to get it.
There are some strong indications that is the case. The impending Iraq
campaign could represent a watershed event in the history of the Middle
East.
Imagine a free Iraq.
Imagine a free Afghanistan.
Imagine a free Iran.
Imagine a free Lebanon.
It could happen. If we set out goals high and we act responsibly and we
are courageous and steadfast in waging this war on terrorism – this war
we did not start – it could happen!-
---------------------------------
Revisiting the Six-Day War
Posted: January 23, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Editor's note: Are you ready for the Second American Revolution? Joseph
Farah's new book, "Taking America Back" exposes the weaknesses in
America's current system and offers practical solutions – solutions that
are real and doable, solutions that can revive freedom, morality and
justice in our nation. Order your copy now in WorldNetDaily's online
store, ShopNetDaily!
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
Occupation, occupation, occupation.
If you listen to Arabs, that's the cause of the conflict with Israel –
occupation.
They blame all their ills – from refugees living in squalor for the last
50 years to Yasser Arafat's bad breath – on the so-called Israeli
"occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Arabs say the Israelis grabbed this real estate in a war of
aggression in 1967. In fact, Israel did not start that war. Israel did
not want that war. Israel merely defended itself – very, very
effectively – from coordinated attacks by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and
Arafat's terrorists.
This is not opinion. This is fact. A friend of mine, Sol Jacobs, did
something very simple – something very obvious – to document this fact,
which seems to elude so many today. He went back and looked at what
newspapers were reporting about the crisis before June 5, 1967 – before
there was any alleged "Israeli occupation."
Here's what he found on his month-long timeline leading up to the
Six-Day War:
* On May 7, the New York Times reported Syria had shelled the Israeli
village of Ein Gev.
* On May 17, the New York Times reported that the Palestine Liberation
Organization, headed by Arafat, pledged to "keep sending commandos" into
Israel.
* On May 19, the Los Angeles Times reported Egypt stood accused of using
poison gas in Yemen.
* On May 19, the New York Times reported Egypt had deployed its forces
along the Israeli border.
* On May 20, the New York Times reported Egypt forced U.N. peacekeeping
troops to leave the Sinai Desert in anticipation of its attack on Israel.
* On May 21, the New York Times reported Egyptian soldiers were massing
in the Sinai.
* On May 22, the New York Times reported that the PLO would be stepping
up its attacks in Israel, that Cairo was calling up 10,000 reserves and
that Iraq would be sending aid to battle Israel.
* On May 23, every newspaper in the world reported that Egypt took the
provocative action of closing the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel.
* On May 24, every newspaper in the world reported that the U.S.
declared Egypt's military blockade of the gulf "illegal."
* On May 25, the New York Times reported that Jordan would admit Saudi
and Iraqi forces into its country to do battle with Israel.
* On May 27, every newspaper in the world reported Egypt's fiery threats
to destroy Israel.
* On May 29, the New York Times reported the Egyptian buildup of
military forces in the Sinai was continuing.
* On May 29, the Washington Post reported that despite all of this
provocation, Israel was still reluctant to have a showdown with its enemies.
* On May 29, the New York Times reported new Syrian attacks on Israel.
* On June 3, the New York Times reported that Britain declared the
Egyptian blockade could lead to war. It also reported that four Syrian
commandos were intercepted in Israel.
* On June 5, 1967, the Six-Day War began. Israel rolled up all of its
enemies faster than anyone would have believed. It took control of East
Jerusalem from Jordan. It took control of Judea and Samaria on the west
bank of the Jordan River from Jordan. It took control of the Golan
Heights from Syria. And it took control of the Gaza Strip and Sinai
Desert from Egypt.
You can read these news reports for yourself thanks to the work of Sol
Jacobs.
Clearly, the so-called "occupation" of these territories came about as a
result of Arab war-making on Israel. Israel merely defended itself well.
Israel also proved it was willing to give these territories back to
neighbors who would live in peace with the Jewish state, as demonstrated
with the return of the Sinai to Egypt.
All of this raises a few questions: If Israel is occupying those
territories today, who was occupying them until 1967? If the West Bank
and Gaza belong to "Palestinians," why were they under the control of
Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967? If Arab "Palestinians" just want
their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967?
And, lastly, why is it, according to many of these articles written in
1967, that when the Arabs talked about "occupied territories" then, they
meant all of Israel?
--------------------------------------
and one more by Joe Farah, an american, an arab, a christian,
The world's collective amnesia
Posted: September 19, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
Yasser Arafat may have lost some of his personal political clout of
late, but the political movement he began – demanding justice for
Palestinian Arabs expelled from their homes in 1948 – remains as strong
as ever.
There's just one problem. There's not the slightest historical evidence
to suggest Arabs were expelled in significant numbers – certainly not by
Jews.
I know this statement is going to be met with gasps, guffaws and
gnashing of teeth. Nevertheless, let me defend it, not with my own
words, not with the words of Jews and Israelis, but with the words of
Arabs closer to the time of the events.
* "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state.
The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share
in the solution of the problem."
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in
an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.
* "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave
their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab
invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
* "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now
from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have
neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and
penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon
amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
* "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem
appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the
Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
* "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating
Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the
Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women
and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the
Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties
to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
I could go on and on and on with this forgotten – or deliberately
obscured – history. But you get the point. There was no Jewish
conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened.
There are, instead, plenty of historical records showing the Jews
pleading with their Arab neighbors to stay and live in peace and
harmony. Yet, despite the clear, unambiguous words of the Arab observers
at the time, history has been successfully rewritten to turn the Jews
into the bad guys.
The truth is that 68 percent of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 –
perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier.
Even more importantly, the revised history has given the guilty a free
ride. The Arab states that initiated the hostilities have never accepted
responsibility – despite their enormous wealth and their ability to
assimilate tens of millions of refugees in their largely under-populated
nations. And other states have failed to hold them accountable.
It's bad enough the Arab states created a small nation of refugees by
their actions. It's worse that they have successfully blamed that
international crime on the Jews.
Today, of course, this cruel charade continues. The suffering of
millions of Arabs is perpetuated only for political purposes by the Arab
states. They are merely pawns in the war to destroy Israel.
There were some 100 million refugees around the world following World
War II. The Palestinian Arab group is the only one in the world not
absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Since then,
millions of Jewish refugees from around the world have been absorbed in
the tiny nation of Israel.
It makes no sense to expect that same tiny Jewish state to solve a
refugee crisis it did not create.
----------------
Phillip Inoy
> >many Jews on both sides of the Atlantic have often been slippery on
> >this subject.
> You know your in the presence of greatness when someone tries to tell
> you just 'who' you are- slippery- ugh
> you 're reeking here-
Yes indeed, you are in the presence of greatness; I have a 2 bachelors
(summa)in both Economics and International Relations with a minor in
Biblical Studies. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish community and am
quite familiar with all of their traditions. I have had many Islamic
friends and have heard both the Torah and the Quran and many Sufi
texts as well as works by past and more modern Rabbis.
> >A Jew: is a person who professes some degree in the faith of Judaism,
> >whether orthodox, reform, Hasid, or some such sect of faith.
> >
>
> thanks for the kindergarten lesseon- is this what you do Guro, for the
> students? Sagely advice like this. They must be truly stirred with this
> nonsense.
> remind me to stick a hat pin thru my frontal lobes and tell you what a
> christian is, what silat is, what you are... yeah! your kind of thinking.
If my students need to start from the beginning then yes, that is
exactly where they start. I tend to start arguing with definitions
before proceeding. I am a debate coach and have coached at the college
level. We don't usually deal with ad hominem and when we see it we
just smile and know better. Shall we continue with your lesson?
> Most of Israel is populated by ZIONISTS and their descendants
>
>
> No- deepthinker.
> Here- let me give you a clue- put down the beercan
> It's populated by- people.
> And the jewish ones, are jewish people. Despite your demented screwing
> up of history.
> Just people.
And you think I'm a bullshit artist. This is exactly how someone
incapable of arguing rationally will take a debate..down a road where
evidence is not required. It is clear to me you know SO LITTLE about
your own history as to make this a waste of my time. The degree to
which you consistently resort to ad-hominem is both abominable and
sad. The current population of Israel is made up of largely those who
simply have no ancestral claim there. That is a definition of a
Zionist..someone who feels a such a kinship through his Judaistic
faith that he wishes to go live there among others who worship as
he/she does.
> >Let's define the term so as to not offend you, you pompous prick.
> >
>
> Go for it_Guro
>
> >
> >ZIONIST: A potentially wealthy, politically active person via lobby,
> >NOT of ANY of the 12 tribes of Judah, let alone a decendent of Jacob,
> >converted to the Jewish faith, regardless of sect, who wishes to
> >pilgrimage and make his home in the land now currently defined by
> >geo-political boundaries as Israel.
> >
> >Mr Goldberg, I hope that was politically correct enough for you. To
> >continue...
> I love it- your a dopey hate freak, and too dumb to even know it!
> Ah well- potentially weatlthy, ugh... you two bit dime store nobody- you
> hate so goooood.
> You should read some more history books before you put up your patina of
> peace and brotherhood- one scratch or two and your veneer comes right off.
> G-d., how the fuck do you stand yourself looking in the mirror? Oh well,
> rhetorical question... never mind
Just what about the above makes me a "dopey hate freak" and what does
that have to do with the topic at hand? If you've forgotten the topic
its "Jew vs. Israeli and who belongs there"
> >It is my strong belief that a Zionist has NO claim to the land of
> >Israel. Furthermore even if they did, what ever land the receive
> >should be given to them after ALL THOSE WHO LIVED THERE PREVIOUSLY
> >were able to keep their land REGARDLESS OF FAITH.
This was left undenied and rather untouched by you Mr Goldberg, Mr
Jew, whatever. We'll all consider it conceded. Which is key to this
debate BTW
> >It is HISTORICAL FACT sir that Zionism is almost solely responsible
> >for the current population of Israel whether emigres from Russia,
> >Germany, the US, or various parts of the world.
> Except of course- that the mass slaughter by the pompous murderers of
> the earth
> brought them home- even when they tried to live amongst them. Yes- you
> are a humble man,
> full of humility- and love- all that murder, all that torture, all that
> enslavement, all that
> degradation of human ideals- that TOO brought them to that parched piece
> of land that was called Israel- and a gift of G-d.
> I like to think the whole world's a gift- of course- then there's people
> like you in it- but that's another story- GURO.
Murder ran rampant throughout WW1 and WW2. It is also true that Jews
were persecuted for their faith. A great deal by Christian Europe I
might add. I guess thats what happens when you charge
interest....eventually the Jews won out on the interest concept.
It is also quite true and historically ignored due to several factors
that the largest ethnic or faith based population murdered in WW2 was
not the Jews. But rather the common Russian of whom were slaughtered
some 12-14 million. You don't see them bandying about that they are
entitled to some compensation. If Im a hate freak then you are a pity
freak. People like you thrive on it.
> >.... I
> >would rather have the richer, more populous Arabs on our side than the
> >smaller Jewish population FROM A WAR STANDPOINT. However, 9/11 pretty
> >much decided that most of the Arab nations will likely become either a
> >Sea of Glass or a US protectorate, after a fashion.
> >
> > "America has its own problems. From a war treatise perspective we
> > should have sided with the Arabs as we did in the early 20's so we
> > wouldn't have an oil war now. There aren't as many Jews or Israelis as
> > there are Muslims and Arabs.
> Let me be a judge of your character, for the moment- all ego aside- do
> you know the difference between you and I??
> I'm serious here.
>
> It's that you're a pimp...and I'm a man.
> We'll both just be living out our lives- but I wouldn't trust the likes
> of a pimp like you
> with my beloved America,
> nor my land of Israel
Another adhominem attack because of your narrow, unrealistic
perceptions. Ironically, the articles you underposted said everything
I've ever said about this issue. Thanks for supplying me more
evidence. :-) Oh and by the way. Your a citizen of the US right? Then
even the Israeli govt. acknowledges my definition of a Zionist and
sir, that you are and the "land of Israel" is NOT your land. Sorry to
disappoint you.
> Nor the common good of others- you strike me as a laundryman- guro; a
> moneypeddler
>
> That was Billy Carters philophy, the beercan, the slick oilsaleman, very
> unchristian, but his bro- the prez, he gave it that universalist
> christian ring, soon thereafter- got the noble prize- that nuclear
> thing, in Korea- big success.
>
> You remind me more of fat Billy- guro- you can't even hide your coarse
> money counting ways as you did above.
> My word- it's all about money and your own lame ass, right there -slickster?
My "lame ass" has women after it all the time. My secret? Besides MA I
do Pilates and Yoga. Women go crazy for an educated, in shape, man
like me who can take care of himself if need be. Oh and I love the
"moneypeddler" comment. Coming from a Jew...WARNING the POT is calling
the KETTLE black here.
I'm going to descend into your world for a moment..the world of
adhominem..for just a brief moment and enjoy myself. Jews like Blacks
have their homemade names...they have Aisha, Latondra, L'Shaywaniqua,
you have goldberg..Mr "City of Gold" you
SNIP SNIP...all ad hominem and not one salient counter from you.
> >....To think that your zionist brothers and their enemies can shed so much
> >blood on holy ground and still call yourselves Children of yes.. I'll
> >spell it for you since your a Jew ..."God" ..is blasphemous beyond
> >measure. All of those people, Rachel, Jacob, the prophets...do you
> >think that war on holy ground is a fitting testament to what they
> >tried to teach us? Impudence beyond measure. May God forgive you...I'm
> >trying to.
I don't need to prove anything. I don't exist to please you and the US
doesn't exist to play Welfare with the any country's inability to
defend themselves.
> You- the likes of you- have no business doing anything but trying to
> learn something of what it is to be a bit more a man. You aren't even
> that. Guro
> In fact the difference between you and me is simple- no kidding-
>
> Your a pimp, and I'm a man.
> Just a man. That's all.
Ok, Lothar of the Hill People. You man ugg. You manly man ugg.
> You- your a billy carter, beer guzzler philosopher with a handle; guro
> You don't know a damm thing about history, about facts- but you preach
> and preen with your pseudoreligious
> patina.
> My word- no kidding- I honestly feel like taking a bath- you miserable
> excuse for whatever the fuck you are.
I'm quite familiar with history, just not the revisionist pro-Jew
history you seem well acquainted with. I'd invite this debate onto a
separate thread but you are neither well educated enough to sustain
it, nor are you entertaining enough to justify my time. Go read a
book.
> and I post these words of some thinkers, some men- who I respect; unlike
> my disgust for the likes of the pimps of the world like yourself.
> At least this will wash off the filth you deposited here; gross- and too
> fucked up to even know it!
Many of whom agreed with every word I've posted so far.
> Oh- and for the record- I wish Israel would tell us to take a hike with
> our demands about which way the sun comes up- everytime they get blown up.
> We just might learn who our friends are- we Americans need to consider
> this before we go down the socialist pipe to nowhere, with all the other
> complainers.
Let me see...who ARE our FRIENDS in the world? The Jews or Israelis,
whos only claim to fame is to hate our current enemy and usury and
occupy almost solely the Holy Land they ought to be sharing with
members of all faiths who consider that land sacred? I don't mind the
REAL israeli living there...but why should I care or protect a people
whose claim is illegitimate? Your claim for example.
We need as our friends those willing to fight along side us without
complaint and without resistance. Great Britain is our ally. Germany
and France are exceedingly careful these days due to their high muslim
populations...but in general they are our allies. They have armies.
There simply aren't enough Israelis, Zionists, or Jews to make them
geopolitically necessary as an ally
Mark, Mr Jew, whatever. Let remind you that this is RMA. Rec.martial
arts. many of us are presumed to have read everything from Clausewitz
and Machiavelli, to Sun Tze, Laotze, 36 strategems...all of which you
seem woefully unfamiliar with. ALL of my original comments stem from
those writings and more.
Frankly, the war with Iraq is all wrong from the war treatises
standpoint. what we should do is pull our support with Israel. Let
Islam take it over and use i as a bargaining chip for oil. Then we
should use our already existent technologies to power things like
hydrogen powered cars and such to bankrupt those fucks and leave them
playing in the worlds largest sandbox alone. Then, when no one is
paying attention we make a Sea of Glass out of them, permanently
destroying their bioterror capabilities with thermonukes. Then we
place permanently a US flag and next to it, engraved in nuclear
plasticized sand(glass you moron) the numbers 9/11. This method is one
of the 36 strategems. Thats how I fight. Thats how I win. Permanently.
No one messes with the US and yes I am acknowledged as a Guro. I
wonder why. Perhaps its because I'm good at Asian martial arts, the
best Go player in the Desert Southwest, have complete knowledge of
strategy and tactics from most of the world and yes I do know my
history. I can't agree with you more about Israel. i wish they'd tell
us to fuck off but they NEVER will because we are their lifeline of
existence. I cant wait till the day I don't HAVE to read international
newspapers/monthlys like the Economist to get a non-Jewish perspective
on whats going on in MY own country.
Yes, from now on Mark I'll expect you to address me as Guro because of
all of my titles that is the easiest term of respect that a Jewish
American Putz like you can pronounce.
You are the ultimate schlemiel.
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
Mark Goldberg
>
>Yes indeed, you are in the presence of greatness; I have a 2 bachelors
>(summa)in both Economics and International Relations with a minor in
>Biblical Studies. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish community and am
>quite familiar with all of their traditions. I have had many Islamic
>friends and have heard both the Torah and the Quran and many Sufi
>texts as well as works by past and more modern Rabbis.
>
>
teacher, wasn't it?, so I guress greatness comes in different sizes and
shapes
Hell- sometimes it's a bloated blowhard bigot full of himself who
screeches and annoints himself, but as far as I can see, your not much
when it comes to simple
human decency- so I wouldn't bray about your mastery and
accomplishments- you've demonstrated
a need for much rethinking about what you know and don't know- even who
you are, or pretend to be.
>If my students need to start from the beginning then yes, that is
>exactly where they start. I tend to start arguing with definitions
>before proceeding. I am a debate coach and have coached at the college
>level. We don't usually deal with ad hominem and when we see it we
>just smile and know better. Shall we continue with your lesson?
>
>
>
Do you tell them your real name- or do you make up others like you have
on RMA's
Yes- let's continue with the lesson.
It appears some of that rage that got you on the meds, wasn't just over
economic difficulties- more like
the self deception problem you have regarding just who and what you
arer, or might not be...
>
>
>
>>Most of Israel is populated by ZIONISTS and their descendants
>>
>>
>>No- deepthinker.
>>Here- let me give you a clue- put down the beercan
>>It's populated by- people.
>>And the jewish ones, are jewish people. Despite your demented screwing
>>up of history.
>>Just people.
>>
>>
>
>And you think I'm a bullshit artist.
>
Indeed- your history is the use of different personas- Mr. Tony Park,
aka Philip Inoy, aka Tony Rapley- thrown out
by your own Serrada teacher. But I know so little of your history; but
then, that doesn't stop a dirtbag sophist like you trying to ply his
versions of history about others...
> It is clear to me you know SO LITTLE about
>your own history
>
>...The current population of Israel is made up of largely those who
>simply have no ancestral claim there. That is a definition of a
>Zionist..someone who feels a such a kinship through his Judaistic
>faith that he wishes to go live there among others who worship as
>he/she does.
>
>
With not only the small number of inhabitant living there, must of all
fairly recent arrivals- jewish, arab, christian, moslem
Jerusalem was overwhelmingly jewish in 1856 when Karl Marx- the failed
romantic poet, who did the census.
And they sure as hell have ancestral claims there you fool.
Census data from the Ottoman period and the British Mandate show that the
Arab population in Palestine jumped from 141,000 in 1882 to over a
million in
1938. This demographic explosion represents more than three times the
corresponding population increases in neighboring Lebanon, Syria, and
Egypt.
As recently as 1930, the Hope-Simpson Report noted, "illicit immigration
through Syria and across the northern frontier of Palestine is
material."
Even the Syrian governor Tawfik Bey el-Hurani recognized that in a few
months
in 1934 some 30,000 Syrians moved into Palestine. On the eve of World War
II, Winston Churchill stressed: "far from being persecuted, the Arabs have
crowded into the country and multiplied." The Bedouin population
followed
the same skyrocketing numbers: from 14,000 in 1949, they are now over
130,000 and enjoy their new sedentary lives as Israeli citizens.
And yet we hear the spinning tales of Yasser Arafat and his cronies who
shamelessly claim that Palestinians' ancestry goes back to the ancient
Canaanites and Jebusites! Arafat himself and other prominent
"Palestinians," such as Professor Edward Said, kept spreading their fake
"Palestinian" identity until both were forced to admit that they were
born in
Egypt and grew up there. Arafat is indeed one among hundreds of thousands
of Arab "settlers of the West Bank."
The truth is that Jewish immigrants to what was then Palestine created the
economic conditions that allowed these newly minted "Arab Palestinians" to
flock, flourish and multiply. Even British officials, who relentlessly
strived to curtail Jewish immigration to Mandated Palestine, recognized
this
fact. So did the arabs, on many occasions.
>>>ZIONIST: A potentially wealthy, politically active person via lobby,
>>>NOT of ANY of the 12 tribes of Judah, let alone a decendent of Jacob,
>>>converted to the Jewish faith, regardless of sect, who wishes to
>>>pilgrimage and make his home in the land now currently defined by
>>>geo-political boundaries as Israel.
>>>
>>>Mr Goldberg, I hope that was politically correct enough for you. To
>>>continue...
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
Well, coming from a guy with different names, what the heck- you surely
must know.
Ah.... your point- you pulled this swill out several times already.
Let's see- if my ancestors were jews, and were exterminated for being
jews- and thrown out of
lands for being just, jews, and had all manner of destructions thrown
their way- by the likes of you and yours-
hell,
They're jews :^)
But of course- you want a dna test...
Hell- I want a sanity test for you
But alas,
as the great marx said ( groucho )
There ain't no sanity claus
Well, what about all those scriptures- what do they say? "Blessed is
the Lord from Zion, who
dwells in Jerusalem."
"The liberty we
prize...is God's gift to humanity."
Through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Land of Israel was deeded to the Jews
-- a ONE state solution.
"To you will I give this Land," said God to Jacob...not to Mohammed
meanwhile, arabs, practice child sacrifice -- a ritual still vigorously
practiced today,
when they strap their children with explosives and send them out to commit
self-sacrifice and murder- and mass homicide and terrorism- and it's
against all infidels
Everyone who stands against their superiority and ownership
Who, indeed, are these people, these Palestinians who demand a share of
Israel? Today's Palestinians were never a distinct nation and have never
even had a distinct Palestinian heritage. The very term "Palestinian" to
mean a defined Arab people came about only as recently as 1964. Has there
ever been a single "Palestinian" Judge, King or Prophet within the Land of
Israel?
But...from Joshua's conquest onward, the Land was ruled for centuries by
JUDGES, KINGS and PROPHETS. From David to Zedekiah, from Amos to Malachi,
all were Jews.
None were "Palestinian" Arabs. By what historical legitimacy, then, do the
Arabs assert rights to even an inch of that Everlasting Covenant? In
that little
slice of land. One small slice- not the world- that the arabs wish to
conquer, and have promised
to conquer, and the terrorism they've brought these last thirty years.
Some fruit they brought the world.
The Jewish presence in the Land of Israel has endured for some 4000 years
and remains fixed to this very day further upon the word of God to
Jacob..."and to thy seed after thee will I give the Land."
Yes, Arafat WANTS Jerusalem...and I want to play center field for the New
York Yankees. The one entitlement is as deserving as the other.
So- numbnuts- with your filthy ways- who's a jew??
The people who got slaughtered, killed, abused, suffered treachery,
derision,
and survived.
People who are their descendents- that's who.
>It is HISTORICAL FACT sir that Zionism is almost solely responsible
>for the current population of Israel whether emigres from Russia,
>Germany, the US, or various parts of the world.
>
>
No- jew hatred is. The idea that dhimmi's must never rule over an ounce
of land a moslem has ever claimed.
That is the most distinguishing factor- the dar al harb vs the dar al islam-
that is the most important reason for the current world situation of
turmoil, of terrorism, and the need
for the wars against states that support and supply terrorism.
>...Murder ran rampant throughout WW1 and WW2. It is also true that Jews
>were persecuted for their faith. A great deal by Christian Europe I
>might add. I guess thats what happens when you charge
>interest....eventually the Jews won out on the interest concept.
>
You are a grotesque little man; phony debate coach
Say- why not print out this example of your brilliance and paste it on
the bulletin board of your
school- I'm sure it will really impress your former debate 'students'
and use your real names- all of them. and a recommendation from your
serrada teacher who you so adroitly honored.
>>>.... I
>>>would rather have the richer, more populous Arabs on our side than the
>>>smaller Jewish population FROM A WAR STANDPOINT. However, 9/11 pretty
>>>much decided that most of the Arab nations will likely become either a
>>>Sea of Glass or a US protectorate, after a fashion.
>>>
>>>"America has its own problems. From a war treatise perspective we
>>>should have sided with the Arabs as we did in the early 20's so we
>>>wouldn't have an oil war now. There aren't as many Jews or Israelis as
>>>there are Muslims and Arabs.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
Talk about charging interest...quite a noble philosophy, flippy
>
>
>
>>Let me be a judge of your character, for the moment- all ego aside- do
>>you know the difference between you and I??
>>I'm serious here.
>>
>>It's that you're a pimp...and I'm a man.
>>We'll both just be living out our lives- but I wouldn't trust the likes
>>of a pimp like you
>>with my beloved America,
>>nor my land of Israel
>>
>>
No- it's just an accurate assessment of a trashy mean spirited, puffed
up, in love with his widdle self, irrational arse which you demonstrate
quite nicely in your posts.
>>Nor the common good of others- you strike me as a laundryman- guro; a
>>moneypeddler
>>
>>That was Billy Carters philophy, the beercan, the slick oilsaleman, very
>>unchristian, but his bro- the prez, he gave it that universalist
>>christian ring, soon thereafter- got the noble prize- that nuclear
>>thing, in Korea- big success.
>>
>>You remind me more of fat Billy- guro- you can't even hide your coarse
>>money counting ways as you did above.
>>My word- it's all about money and your own lame ass, right there -slickster?
>>
>>
>
>My "lame ass" has women after it all the time. My secret? Besides MA I
>do Pilates and Yoga. Women go crazy for an educated, in shape, man
>like me who can take care of himself if need be. Oh and I love the
>"moneypeddler" comment. Coming from a Jew...WARNING the POT is calling
>the KETTLE black here.
>
>I'm going to descend into your world for a moment..the world of
>adhominem..for just a brief moment and enjoy myself. Jews like Blacks
>have their homemade names...they have Aisha, Latondra, L'Shaywaniqua,
>you have goldberg..Mr "City of Gold" you
>
>
You are a nitwit- a hustler. I loved the spartan, aryan monologue above
though...
I think it's you, yes, I'd go with that one. But change your name more
frequently.
>>> May God forgive you...I'm
>>>trying to.
>>>
>>>
I think your former Serrada teacher, what was his name- khalid khan-
he's trying to forgive you too.
who the heck are you to peddle your wormeaten false histories about the
Jewish-
your a phony even in the newsgroups where you change your identity to
hide who you've been.
Oh- what was it you wrote:
> Frankly, the war with Iraq is all wrong from the war treatises
> >standpoint. what we should do is pull our support with Israel. Let
> >Islam take it over and use it as a bargaining chip for oil. Then we
> >should use our already existent technologies to power things like
> >hydrogen powered cars and such to bankrupt those fucks and leave them
> >playing in the worlds largest sandbox alone. ***Then, when no one is
> >paying attention we make a Sea of Glass out of them, permanently
> >destroying their bioterror capabilities with thermonukes.*** Then we
> >place permanently a US flag and next to it, engraved in nuclear
> >plasticized sand(glass you moron) the numbers 9/11. This method is one
> >of the 36 strategems. Thats how
Yes- your a brave coward, and thermonuclear weasal. You talk like a
coward, and a liar, and you plan like one.
What bravery- what- mental defect, and defect of character, and humanity
to boot.
>Yes, from now on Mark I'll expect you to address me as Guro because of
>all of my titles that is the easiest term of respect that a Jewish
>American Putz like you can pronounce.
>
>You are the ultimate schlemiel.
>
>Phillip J. Inoy
>Guro, CSE
>
>
>
Your just Tony rapley, or park, or inoy- about ANNOY.
or just flippy the toady mass homicidal thermonucleist-
yeah- a title
for your serrada teacher to address you.
Mark
Mark Goldberg
> ...Your just Tony rapley, or park, or inoy- about ANNOY.
> or just flippy the toady mass homicidal thermonucleist-
> yeah- a title
>
> for your serrada teacher to address you.
>
> Mark
>
I meant ... how about ANNOY.
In fairness- when I was looing up to see how many others you've annoyed
over the years-
I did find a note from dec 02 that
This is to announce that I have decided to
re-instate the Guro status of *TONY **RAPLEY* PARK
with full privileges and authority in
the art of Serrada Eskrima as was
taught by me to him. That is you, write- Guro ANNOY
Well- good luck to him.
He's going to need it with a twisted sister like
you teaching his art. Phew.
Mark
Chas
> That was Billy Carters philophy,
Mark:
Inoy probably isn't an 'aryan'; he probably isn't Southern, or
'christian', or anything else to do with either of the famous Carter
Brothers.
When you allow your adhominems to slop over into the groups that you
feel you can take a potshot at without fear of demur, it doesn't speak
well for you.
In fact, it's the fat/white/old/Christians that have supported
Israel/Zionists for most of a century now; long before the forming of
the Nation of Israel. All my life, I've been told that God said; 'Who
loves Jerusalem, loves the Lord', and have given charity out of my
personal pocket as well as watched my tax monies go to support them-
and no resentment of it. It's Christian Protestant White churchgoers
that have made it possible for Israel to survive *at all*.
When you attempt to marginalize people, Mark, you fall into the same
trap that has plagued you guys for a couple of thousand years. The
same mind-set that characterizes Southern men as bigots, or fools, or
beer-guzzling nightriders, is the mind-set that characterizes Jews as
usurers, Christ-killers, and conspirators against all others not
Jewish.
You seem to have a quarrel with Mr. Inoy; why don't you talk to *him*,
and stop proclaiming your bigotry against totally unrelated cultures
of people.?
Mark Goldberg
Perhaps your correct.
But it was a characterization of him and Billy Carter- with his exact
same rationale back in 79' before his brother screwed up the Iran
hostage business, not of christians, nor us white guys. the aryan crack
was just that he was using one of those same arguments that was their's
too be disingenuous with- when trying to erase the existant of an entire
people.
Hell- I've never talked of southerners as bigots or fools or beer
guzzlers or gotten into this in other threads.
Billy Carter was what he was- and I didn't bring him up to smear
southerers- nor did I imply or infer that this was for others- just that
it was an attitude by a beer guzzler with a big mouth about how there's
so many more a-rabs, than there is jews blah blah. I was mocking Annoy
as a characterization of Billy Carter's old views.
Since I've never mocked southerners, or characterized them as such- why
think it a characterization of them?
Of course- it is still a personal shot- but I thought he deserved it.
It was comedy about him, and retreaded opinions. Nothing else.
As for marginalizing- I don't think I've been one to 'slop over' very
much- and mentioning histories of hundreds of years of group behavior
that have changed and benefited jewish people, and or israel, this I
have mentioned and spoken about many times.
So- I'm not sure why you single me out here for 'marginalizing' white
christians- maybe you never saw, what must have been many times I
mentioned that helpfulness- and hopefulness, from that faith and those
groups. I would think that too goes into your criticism of me.
I can understand how people can take some things personally- you don't
think this one cuts close for guys like me?
Mark
Chas
> Since I've never mocked southerners, or characterized them as such- why
> think it a characterization of them?
Mostly because you did it a couple of times, took a couple more shots
at hypotheticals and stuff like that.
Mostly because I don't get the impression that Inoy is coming from any
perspective that could be compared to Billy Carter, and few to his
more admirable brother.
> So- I'm not sure why you single me out here for 'marginalizing' white
> christians- maybe you never saw, what must have been many times I
> mentioned that helpfulness- and hopefulness, from that faith and those
> groups. I would think that too goes into your criticism of me.
Like I say; I don't get the impression that Phil Inoy is your typical
'white christian' and I don't quite see wherein he dredged up that
comparison from you.
> I can understand how people can take some things personally- you don't
> think this one cuts close for guys like me?
Sure; and I'm on your side, bubbelah.
See, I'd go to war over Israel for precisely the same reasons as the
muslims; religious. It's my Holy Land too. I consider most of what
they've done to be desecrating places that I hold in great reverence.
I like Jews- I've almost married into the religion a couple of times
and find that I've less trouble with their emphasis on 'observance of
the Law' than I do with the Islamic emphasis on 'Submit and Recite
Allegiance'.
Mark Goldberg
>Mark Goldberg wrote:
>
>
>>Since I've never mocked southerners, or characterized them as such- why
>>think it a characterization of them?
>>
>>
Where?? I looked back and saw that I was ( ad hominem ) poking a mocking
picture of his philosophy, which he thinks so very highly of, as a beer
guzzlers- the Billy Carter thing came to mind because that's who I
remember doing it.
I guess you won't believe me, but I never pictured Billy Carter as a
Southerner, as such. Not lying- I pictured
him as a lazy brother of a rich person, who drank beer and pontificated-
and there's plenty of that going around everywhere.
It is a common picture of a lazy self indulgent person. And that goes to
all groups everywhere.
But Billy C echoed that exact philosophy as Mr Annoy did- so I chose him
Not because he was a picture of southerners.
I guess the statement about his brothers stance then giving it a
univeralist christian cover or however I put it, might have seemed
pejorative- but heck- you don't believe in clerics making policy about
political matters- christian, jewish, whomever-
so it was just a crack about the noble sounding ex pres- and his meager
foreign policies that he portrays as high minded- you criticized them
too- if I remember correctly.
That's all I meant.
>Mostly because you did it a couple of times, took a couple more shots
>at hypotheticals and stuff like that.
>Mostly because I don't get the impression that Inoy is coming from any
>perspective that could be compared to Billy Carter, and few to his
>more admirable brother.
>
Well, you've got me. I didn't think he was a southerner, and I didnt'
think he was much in the way of
any kind of honest man- so I thought- after he made the exact same
political philosophy as Billy Carter did, to characterize him as such.
But Billy Carter did evince that exact philosophy- I heard him say it-
and it was funny, and stupid, and lazy,
and he was off to Libya to make a deal and got hilariously used by
Kaddaffi for that. Even his brother cried out
Oy vey, I'm sure.
>
>
>
>>So- I'm not sure why you single me out here for 'marginalizing' white
>>christians- maybe you never saw, what must have been many times I
>>mentioned that helpfulness- and hopefulness, from that faith and those
>>groups. I would think that too goes into your criticism of me.
>>
>>
>
>Like I say; I don't get the impression that Phil Inoy is your typical
>'white christian' and I don't quite see wherein he dredged up that
>comparison from you.
>
Nor do I- I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. I didn't mean too.
It was ad hominem humor.
>Sure; and I'm on your side, bubbelah.
>See, I'd go to war over Israel for precisely the same reasons as the
>muslims; religious. It's my Holy Land too. I consider most of what
>they've done to be desecrating places that I hold in great reverence.
>I like Jews- I've almost married into the religion a couple of times
>and find that I've less trouble with their emphasis on 'observance of
>the Law' than I do with the Islamic emphasis on 'Submit and Recite
>Allegiance'.
>
>
>
I know you are- but that's not why I consider your opinions of value-
honest men, basically decent men
don't pull grotesque horseshit on each other.
And I see you as much more than just a decent, intelligent man.
I thinked you've worked hard at it, and demonstrate it in a variety of
discussions and venues.
I didn't mean to cause you pain; and I apologize if my words and humor
and logic did that for you.
It's just that when someone tries to pull the nonsense arguments about
whose dna offers proof that they're from this tribe etc, to verify
they're jewish, Israeli etc
I can lose it.
There is a limit to what I can stomach from such people when they then
pretend to be noble peacemakers etc.
The urge to scratch thru that veneer is a bit visceral.
Please forgive me, I didn't mean to be indiscreet.
mark
Steve Gartin
pleased with Mark's response to Chas' reply.
"Mark Goldberg" <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:b3u04l$be9$1...@news.monmouth.com...
Bravo Mark! I prefer to believe that Mark and I have resolved our
misunderstandings too, but I have to admit that I was abit taken aback by
Mark's response to my post several years ago. I was talking about
*appearances* and what the Muslims must be thinking when talking with the
United States' representatives - when Mark uncorked on me and accused me of
all kinds of anti-sementic thought crimes.
Later, Mark was one of the people that supported me during my unlawful
incarceration - so I have grown fond of him on more than one level.
I'd like to see the racial, political and ethnic crap come to an end HERE
among the world's fighting men - we have much better issues to address.
The current repartee between Phillip Inoy and Mark Goldberg is an
everpresent example of the dispersion racial and ethnic perceptions cause
without any hope of agreement. Look at poor Manuel and Pak Victor, the
entire debacle could have easily been avoided - or turned to an advantage,
by proper display of humillity and forebearance on Manuel's part. But
Manuel HAD to play the *religious* card - bad idea!
Let's face it - NONE of us fit the mould that others would place us in.
That's why we learned to fight - for the most part. Let's NOT fight with
each other about things that cannot be changed - we are all born into a web
of conditions that we have the opportunity to change or take advantage of.
The very fact that we are discussing these issues on Rec.MartialArts would
lead a thinking person to assume that he is talking with FightingMen/Women.
Haven't we learned from history that racial prejudices and religious bigotry
are not edifying nor condusive to our sustained existance on this planet???
Why don't we call a truce on ethnic/religious/cultural/racial issues and
talk about fighting - mayhem, and stuff like that?
Jest my opinion,
Steve Gartin - Free :-)>
>
Search Result 1
From: Mark S Goldberg (mgol...@monmouth.com)
Subject: Re: A question on Impeachment
View: Complete Thread (66 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: misc.legal, rec.knives, rec.martial-arts,
alt.law-enforcement, alt.politics, alt.crime, alt.government.abuse
Date: 1998/12/20
Steve Gartin wrote:
> ... I thought to myself, why don't we have a
> *Chang* or *Gonzales* or *Livingston* representing our Republic when we
> are negotiating between ancient enemies? I can see why the Arab world
> would mistrust us.
> The People should require that Congress cease this war on our Muslim
> Brothers...
> Peace and Love to all People of GoodWill of ALL Faiths....
>
>
> , We, the People, are now in imminent danger from a billion Muslims
> who consider America the military tool of their Zion enemies. Not
> surprising when you consider the overwhelming ethnic concentration of
> the Clinton Cabinet.
[Mark Goldberg then posts:]
Now he emailed me I guess privately, but I see no reason why this doesn't
belong here:
No Mark, not you. Has it ever occurred to you that the Arabs are
talking to Cohen, Rubin, Allbright, and Berger. Has nothing at all
to do with you. What is your problem with the FACT that Clinton's
cabinet is composed mostly of jewish/americans. What do you think the Arabs
must be thinking about Americans.
Obiously, you are jewish. I could care less. I like some of your
posts, some I think are way out of line. Nothing to do with the
ethnicity of your personal choices. You will be pleased to know that
there are several jewish participants in our system. We also have
Negros, Mexicans, Swedes, and Honkies in our midst.
This race card that causes you so much concern because of the propaganda
you have been subjected to during your lifetime.
Listen to what I said; ethnic concentration - are there any Mexicans,
Chinese, Japaneses, Negro or Germans sitting in conference with the
Arabs???? Do you see the point!
Love and Peace,
Steve
Love and Peace? Who are you kidding
Look at the madness of your original thought:
...danger from a billion Muslims
who consider America the military tool of their -Zion enemies. Not
surprising when you consider the overwhelming ethnic concentration of
the Clinton Cabinet.
That is a racist, stupid, insipid, hateful, blind, thoughtless piece of
filth.
OK Mr love and peace.
Don't get it?
Want to tell me how your not coming after me- that's mighty white of you.
Excuse me- you've lost any credibility with me.
You've lost my respect. You've contributed to hatred, ill will based on
nothing except blind hatred.
And don't con me with your political opinions. That's not the issue.
It that insipid hateful filth that I just pointed out.
It invalidates the value of any political assessments, whatever merit they
might hold.
Congratulations.
peace and love _ indeed.
Just words, neighbor,
just words, just talk
hatred in a blouse of religious covering.
I am sadly yours,
Mark S Goldberg-
__________________________________________________________
I trust that Mark and I have moved past this moment in time,
but it would warm my heart to think that maybe we all have.
When we fight, let's fight for right.
SG - F
Phillip Inoy
Let's set a few things straight. I'd been waiting for your responses
and sure enough they were as empty of anything resembling a decent
argument as your dna is empty of anything resembling that of the Line
of Jacob. So neither you nor your family deserve to live in
Israel...nor does anyone like you.
In my opinion as I stated many times either you're from the line of
Jacob or you can prove your descendancy from any family regardless of
faith that lived there prior to Colonialist involvement which for the
sake of simplistic argument we'll say is around 1920. THEN you belong
in Israel.
Incidentally, Chas is quite correct: due to the "southern
Fundamentalist" belief that the Jews are 'God's Chosen' a la the
Abrahamic covenant...its long been Christian policy to support the
Jews.
Now, as for me. It took about 2 seconds of "googling" to find a series
of arguments between me and Guro Khan. I 'applaud' you for your
investigative efforts.
The strand of arguments tells you a few things about my relationship
to Guro Khan. One, that it has a great deal of history of which you
are not aware. Two, when people argue like that its more because
they're close, not because they differ so much. Khalid was going
through a difficult period in his life and we just weren't on the same
wave length. You did manage to find that post where he decided to
"reinstate" my degree. We both thought that was funny. Whether my
degree exists or not doesn't change one iota of the fact that we spent
time together and that I absorbed Serrada as he knew it. He's a
Sufi...he knows the law and so do I. Knowledge given can't be taken
away.
However, nothing in those arguments from Khalid's side say anything
about my skill level or lack thereof. In fact that issue was
completely avoided and with good reason. I don't suck and never have.
My official title is Dalawang Grado Pangalawang Guro in CSE under one
of the 17 masters of Serrada. He can give it or rescind it as many
times as he likes. I'm still his best student along with Guro Antonio
Elago. The 3 of us will always be in contact.
As for my pseudonym which you seem to think is a method for me to
hide. There is nothing to hide from my dear dreidle-spinner. My name
is indeed Anthony Park.
Phillip J. Inoy is a quasi anagram for pilipino or pinoy and was
chosen purely out of deference to the knowledge I obtained in FMA. I
think most people got that.
There is nothing fake about my credentials, educational background or
my history in FMA/bagua. What I completely think IS fake is YOUR skill
level. If your MA is as good as your debating skill(solely limited to
inapplicable ad hominem) then to say you suck is just not adequate.
Queso should write a song about you too. He is soo good at it.
I have nothing against an reasonable, rational member of any faith.
But when any member of said faith becomes irrational and claims that
their faith justifies violence in the name of God for a "sliver of
land" Let me remind you of a few things in the Torah or Old testament
1) God is PERFECTLY capable of committing violence. He is omnipotent.
He doesn't need your help.
2)If it's just a 'sliver of land' then why not give it up or better
yet SHARE it? Arabs and REAL ISRAELIS have been living there for
millennia.
3) Even if God did promise the 'land of jacob' to his descendants does
that mean He didn't WANT them(not you, since you're just a WANNABE
zionist) to share it? What happened to benevolence, grace and mercy?
People like you, Muslim or Jew, support policies that pollute Holy
Ground with blood. That sickens me. That people cannot currently
travel freely and without worry to the Holy Land and visit, with
reverence: the Dome of the Rock, the Church of the Nativity or the
Wailing Wall IS SOLELY because of Zionist extremists and their Islamic
counterparts INABILITY TO SHARE. This was at one time not even an
issue when the REAL Israelis, the Christians living there, and the
Muslims were left alone and were doing what they did
best...worshipping God as their traditions dictated. The zionist
movement changed all that along with Colonialist policy.
Absent those two things I believe that Israel will fall and the Jews
will be forced to reckon with issues like the 6 day War on their own.
Mr Goldberg, hymie, whatever your homemade name is...try and stay on
topic for future debates or guys like myself and others will slaughter
you verbally, and at leisure. Your attempts at adhominem are just
stupid...theyre not even funny.
Give my love to your boobie and sadie,
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
PS: Did I mention you're a potzer?
Mark Goldberg <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote in message news:<b3u04l$be9$1...@news.monmouth.com>...
Mark Goldberg
>Of all the things to fight about, this is one of the most petty. I am
>pleased with Mark's response to Chas' reply.
>
>
>
Thanks Steve
Words do have the power to harm- and giving pain to those whom I have no
intention to injure is not something
I can disregard.
Remind me how to search for these oldies that you've found here. I never
remember exactly how it's accomplished.
And who says there aren't any ghosts?
I have some vague recollection- but I can't remember anything about the
thread.
So I can't tell you why I emailed you privately or otherwise- except on
the face of that post you put up of mine.
but- my coarseness aside; and my small contribution whilst you were
doing time was very small, but thanks- should at least indicate that in
my heart- my thoughts, whatever they might be, or have been, don't,
reflect on how I actually treat my fellow man.
This is a two dimentional medium of thoughts and challenges- and I
think you understand- even if, in that thread where I whaled away, it
certainly did not prevent me from doing being neighborly to one having
difficulties, whom I know of, and can in a small way assist.
It's easy to help known friends and benefactors, but there is a world
we live in, and when people need something from us- it doesn't apply
just to 'friends'.
THAT being said. And since there's only the above post of me chewing you
out- and I'm not sure the context of all the posts prior- but given the
statement you made ..."
I thought to myself, why don't we have a
*Chang* or *Gonzales* or *Livingston* representing our Republic when we
are negotiating between ancient enemies? I can see why the Arab world
would mistrust us.
The People should require that Congress cease this war on our Muslim
Brothers...
Peace and Love to all People of GoodWill of ALL Faiths....
, We, the People, are now in imminent danger from a billion Muslims
who consider America the military tool of their Zion enemies. Not
surprising when you consider the overwhelming ethnic concentration of
the Clinton Cabinet.
No- I think,from what I can see of one post of a thread- with one response- shows that the idea of yours, about being 'seen'as military tool of zion enemies- misses the mark; misses the any real causes of hatred, violence and murder.
It misses the Ideas of the dar al harb and the dar al Islam. It misses the idea of the battle as defined by islam, and declared by some of them; it misses the idea of the war against the infidels.
Now- I for one don't believe that having watched the WTC burning, women and men's throats cut on those planes- the mass innocents incinerated and who's deaths and tortures were danced over by muslims, it would not be my preferred method of prayer to
recite to myself as the bodies fell from the sky
" all we are saying, is give peace a chance "
But I do get your ideation about 'appearances.'
However, given the context, and the developments since- I think a sober examination of the hatreds is important- and will take decades to consider, let alone to change. I don't think taking a few 'bergs' out of public office is anything but window dressing. And war was declared upon us.
Best Regards,
Hope we get to break bread one day.
mark
Phillip Inoy
follow the 36 strategems of China. We certainly would NEVER AGAIN
have to deal with Arab terrorism or Jews whining about how much more
pity they need to receive despite the fact that they simply WERE NOT
the greatest ethnic casualty of WW2.
Incidentally, those that know me know me not as a coward but as
someone who' do anything to protect the fraternity that is these
United States of America. For every one of my brothers, who used to
pledge allegiance every day at school...for every one of them that
died innocently let the US apply the Jihad philosophy in reverse. Let
them and any that support them know that as long as I am on an
airplane that they will not succeed with a box cutter.
For the Israelis who continue to destroy Arabs and vice versa I say
fuck both of you.
Other than the oil we had little interest in the Middle East. Now I
will not be satisfied until I see every last one of Israelis kissing
our American asses for their continued survival and every last Muslim
kowtowing and begging for our forgiveness for 9/11. I will not be
satisfied until the real estate destroyed by 9/11 is replaced by the
the complete and utter destruction of every nation state that supports
terrorism against the US. Mark, you can call it thermonuclear
cowardice if you like I call it winning. Permanently. Those people who
died in 9/11 were all pledged members of the USA. If they can JIHAD
then so can we. Feel free to go over there and experience it first
hand when it happens.
We have been called upon by every nation in the first world strata to
defend it. It's time we receive benefit from it. I want the US to also
control the commerce routes all along the Meditteranean. If we play
World Cop we play World Banker too.
There's no such thing as bravery of cowardice in fighting Mark. There
is only killing and death. I like to get it over with as quickly as
possible.
You should be happy with my stance Mark. It calls for the complete
destruction/subjugation of the Arab world.
Ohh i c...but you really don't WANT the US to pull out of Israel like
you said you did. I thought you said Israel should tell the US to Fuck
Off. I wish they would too. Then we could turn to the arabs and use
the zionists as bait to delay the war until we've stored an even
greater financial/economic competitive advantage...the dissmissal for
the need for oil.
I think you can see why people like you should never fuck with people
like me.
Do you remember the Watts riots and the trouble the blacks had with
the Koreans?
You know the guys with the m16s shooting at Joe Niggaz and his homiez?
Well that's the stock I come from.
You've accused me of cowardice Mark. I won't even respond. You're a
good researcher, here's Khalid's website.
www.geocities.com/newsreader99/serradalist.html
On it he has his cell number. Call him. Ask him if He thinks I'm a
coward. Ask him if he thinks its a good idea to fuck with me. Go on,
ask him. Report back to us what he says. Regardless, you're ALWAYS
welcome to come here and videotape my cowardice and put it on the
internet. I sincerely doubt that what people on RMA and elsewhere will
see is cowardice.
Bahala Na,
Mark Goldberg
>..I'd been waiting for your responses
>and sure enough they were as empty of anything resembling a decent
>argument as your dna is empty of anything resembling that of the Line
>of Jacob.
>
So that's your idea of an argument??
What- that paxil isn't as good for you as zyprexa?
> So neither you nor your family deserve to live in
>Israel...nor does anyone like you.
>
Another idea of an argument??
For what?
Do you think because your on medication, can't get along with others-
pretend to be a peacemaker, and get
called on your assertions- that somehow- your ancestors, your family is
involved?
Oh- but your a debating coach.
I forgot.
>
>In my opinion as I stated many times either you're from the line of
>Jacob or you can prove your descendancy from any family regardless of
>faith that lived there prior to Colonialist involvement which for the
>sake of simplistic argument we'll say is around 1920. THEN you belong
>in Israel.
>
This is moronic... and I could waste way too much time- but why bother?
You don't listen- you just pretend to be mr expert and ignore any
information
that doesn't fit into your world view.
you've stated many times... is correct- and it was so idiotically
incorrect as to be laughable.
but I don't have to explain why walking ino a car can be dangerous- go
ahead walk,
I don't have to explain obvious things to people like you who swallow
stupid and
call it genius.Go ahead- pontificate on your expertise regarding the
Christian theology-
>...As for my pseudonym which you seem to think is a method for me to
>hide.
>
>
I don't give a fig what your name is, but that aside; I got two emails
from complete strangers who I've never heard
of on RMA's; who dished dirt, apparently you leave quite an odor
wherever you go, but I said, thanks but whatever arguments I have, let
them be on their merits.
Fact is- I couldn't figure out how you pissed off people who warn what a
pain in the ass liar you where elsewhere.
> If your MA is as good as your debating skill(solely limited to
>inapplicable ad hominem) then to say you suck is just not adequate.
>
>
See my above first two notations- people who live in glass houses, sonny
boy...
>
>I have nothing against an reasonable, rational member of any faith.
>
Oh asswipe- pretentious self aggrandizement.
>But when any member of said faith becomes irrational and claims that
>their faith justifies violence in the name of God for a "sliver of
>land" Let me remind you of a few things in the Torah or Old testament
>
>
bingo- now your misquoting, then interpreting from what you've made up.
>1) God is PERFECTLY capable of committing violence. He is omnipotent.
>He doesn't need your help.
>
>2)If it's just a 'sliver of land' then why not give it up or better
>yet SHARE it? Arabs and REAL ISRAELIS have been living there for
>millennia.
>
>3) Even if God did promise the 'land of jacob' to his descendants does
>that mean He didn't WANT them(not you, since you're just a WANNABE
>zionist) to share it? What happened to benevolence, grace and mercy?
>
Your concocted argument is fallacious debate coach. it assumes the
jewish didn't share it.
I can prove your wrong, well state arguments and information to that effect.
Can you do likewise?
Or do you just shout and expect everyone to believe what you say.
Go ahead. Some facts- not your opinion.
>
>Mr Goldberg, hymie, whatever your homemade name is...try and stay on
>topic for future debates or guys like myself and others will slaughter
>you verbally, and at leisure. Your attempts at adhominem are just
>stupid...theyre not even funny.
>
>Give my love to your boobie and sadie,
>
>Phillip J. Inoy
>Guro, CSE
>
>PS: Did I mention you're a potzer?
>
>
>
Ok, the emailers told me of your psychiatric problems- your paxil and
valium and booze. Your a dumbass, a two bit
slob- go take your meds.
I didn't want to denigrate other people who have made good adjustments
to their chemical imbalances,
but your a dickhead sociopath.
You and your phony 'benevolence, grace, and mercy'-
and tell your psychiatrist to UP THE DOSES, because it apparently isn't
doing the job
That's ad hominem, but what the fuck- your an idiot and deserve worse.
You state fabrications and slurs- and your paxil needs adjusting.
Although, I'm sure- even without the need for paxil and valium- you
would have come up
with the same mental illnes. See you in the looney bin.
mark
Steve Gartin
"Mark Goldberg" <mgol...@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:b3ujjv$ndb$1...@news.monmouth.com...
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> >Of all the things to fight about, this is one of the most petty. I am
> >pleased with Mark's response to Chas' reply.
> >
> >
> >
> Thanks Steve
>
> Words do have the power to harm- and giving pain to those whom I have no
> intention to injure is not something
> I can disregard.
That's exactly my point Mark - we really are ALL in this together.
>
> Remind me how to search for these oldies that you've found here. I never
> remember exactly how it's accomplished.
> And who says there aren't any ghosts?
Hal (IH) taught me - ask him - he's an asshole, but he will probably teach
you too.
>
> I have some vague recollection- but I can't remember anything about the
> thread.
See that's what pisses them off! I have a pornographic memory.
> So I can't tell you why I emailed you privately or otherwise- except on
> the face of that post you put up of mine.
My perception at that time was that you attacked me out of the blue and
accused me of being anti-semetic. Hurt my feelings!
>
> but- my coarseness aside; and my small contribution whilst you were
> doing time was very small, but thanks- should at least indicate that in
> my heart- my thoughts, whatever they might be, or have been, don't,
> reflect on how I actually treat my fellow man.
Which is EXACTLY my point! Small things mean a LOT to me Mark. You were
there when I REALLY needed some friends. I'll never forget that! You
earned a place in my heart!
> This is a two dimentional medium of thoughts and challenges- and I
> think you understand- even if, in that thread where I whaled away, it
> certainly did not prevent me from doing being neighborly to one having
> difficulties, whom I know of, and can in a small way assist.
Yeah right, all you jews are rich right?
>
> It's easy to help known friends and benefactors, but there is a world
> we live in, and when people need something from us- it doesn't apply
> just to 'friends'.
>
YahSheua said "Because you have done this to the least of my bretheren, you
have done this to Me." Well, I am indeed the least of His bretheran, so
your blessing is assured when my King returns!
> THAT being said. And since there's only the above post of me chewing you
> out- and I'm not sure the context of all the posts prior- but given the
> statement you made ..."
I was talking about the impropriety of our *government* and the calculated
inepetitude of the Clinton administration. I mean, have some common sense -
let's not have ancient enemies negotiating a *peace.* America has virtually
every ethnic and religious element on Earth present and represented - let's
utilize our *diversity.*
>
> I thought to myself, why don't we have a
> *Chang* or *Gonzales* or *Livingston* representing our Republic when we
> are negotiating between ancient enemies? I can see why the Arab world
> would mistrust us.
See what I mean?
> The People should require that Congress cease this war on our Muslim
> Brothers...
I keep saying, We are ALL in this together. There is a very small faction
of ruling elite that would seperate us along
racial/ethnic/religious/political boundries that are totally arbitrary and
fluctuate with the evening news. Are we so igrnorant that we should fall
prey to the current, daily, politically correct concept of reality?
> Peace and Love to all People of GoodWill of ALL Faiths....
I hope that over the years you have come to understand that I truly mean
that. I use the Hebrew term to address my God, YHVH, but others use
different terms - it's not for me to decide. . . not my job - but anyone who
holds sincere and devote conviction concerning OUR Creator is my Brother;
whether he identifies himself as a Sufi, Zoroastrian, Mormon, Jehovah's
Witness, Wican, Animist, Jew, Hebrew, Israelite, Christian, Catholic,
Rosecrutain, Adventist, Hopi,
> , We, the People, are now in imminent danger from a billion Muslims
> who consider America the military tool of their Zion enemies. Not
> surprising when you consider the overwhelming ethnic concentration of
> the Clinton Cabinet.
America was conceived and built on the principle of religious freedom. Why
piss off a billion People in other parts of the world in order to further
the corporate interests of corporations that are endangering the very Earth
itself? Come on - solar, wind, hydrogen and Tesla technology could power
our great Nation without any concern for the oil reserves under the Arab
nations. Who is kidding who?
>
> No- I think,from what I can see of one post of a thread- with one
response- shows that the idea of yours, about being 'seen'as military tool
of zion enemies- misses the mark; misses the any real causes of hatred,
violence and murder.
The causes always seem to be seperate and distince from the heart and desire
of the People. I have had the grace to see People stripped of every dignity
we all hold dear. We, as People, get along - amongst ourselves, without
governmental/religous interference. While I was incarcerated Blacks,
Mexicans, Jews, White Supremists and gartin-variety Honkies all got together
and sued the corrupt Jefferson County Government - to the tune of about 200
Federal suits by the admission of the defense attorneys. We, the People, of
all races/religions/ethnic and economic strata all joined together in
protest of an evil and oppressive system. I loved it!
>
> It misses the Ideas of the dar al harb and the dar al Islam. It misses the
idea of the battle as defined by islam, and >declared by some of them; it
misses the idea of the war against the infidels.
In my understanding of the Quer'an - it is ONLY when the infidels infringe
upon one's worship that war is justified. My understanding of the Torah
allows war under the very same criteria. Only Christians, Hindus and
Budhists are taught to forgive their enemies - as I understand the religious
writings ( not to be confused with fact ). I, personally, have chosen to
follow the King of Peace, YahSheua, (Hebrews 7,8.9 & 10). I believe in my
heart that He will recognize every one who sincerely seeks the Creator when
He returns to rule this Earth.
> Now- I for one don't believe that having watched the WTC burning, women
and men's throats cut on those >planes- the mass innocents incinerated and
who's deaths and tortures were danced over by muslims, it would not >be my
preferred method of prayer to
> recite to myself as the bodies fell from the sky
Religious wars are doomed to failure. "A man convinced against his will -
is of the same opinion still" (don't remember the source).
> " all we are saying, is give peace a chance "
Agreed! When fighting men can CHOOSE peace - when they have other options -
the sheeple may follow.
> But I do get your ideation about 'appearances.'
> However, given the context, and the developments since- I think a sober
examination of the hatreds is important- and will take decades to consider,
let alone to change. I don't think taking a few 'bergs' out of public office
is anything but window dressing. And war was declared upon us.
Well, my opinion of political housekeeping is to vote out EVERY incumbent at
EVERY election to clean up the cesspool of corruption generated by the *good
ol' boy network* that has been in place for decades. Forget the
ethnic/religious/racial consideratiions for a moment and consider the
*network* of hands-washing-hands that has been part and parcel of the
American political landscape for generations. THAT is what needs to be
corrected!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Hope we get to break bread one day.
>
> mark
>
Mark, I believe that Day will come - and I look forward with joyful
anticipation.
Phillip Inoy
> >Jacob or you can prove your descendancy from any family regardless of
> >faith that lived there prior to Colonialist involvement which for the
> >sake of simplistic argument we'll say is around 1920. THEN you belong
> >in Israel.
> This is moronic... and I could waste way too much time- but why bother?
> You don't listen- you just pretend to be mr expert and ignore any
> information
> that doesn't fit into your world view.
> you've stated many times... is correct- and it was so idiotically
> incorrect as to be laughable.
> but I don't have to explain why walking ino a car can be dangerous- go
> ahead walk,
> I don't have to explain obvious things to people like you who swallow
> stupid and
> call it genius.Go ahead- pontificate on your expertise regarding the
> Christian theology-
So show us some evidence FOR ONCE in this silly argument of yours show
us ONE iota, one small construct that VAGUELY resembles an argument
and I'll be shocked.
> >...As for my pseudonym which you seem to think is a method for me to
> >hide.
> >
> >
> I don't give a fig what your name is, but that aside; I got two emails
> from complete strangers who I've never heard
> of on RMA's; who dished dirt, apparently you leave quite an odor
> wherever you go, but I said, thanks but whatever arguments I have, let
> them be on their merits.
> Fact is- I couldn't figure out how you pissed off people who warn what a
> pain in the ass liar you where elsewhere.
Well you certainly seemed to give a fig in your last post now you
don't well thats good. As for this mysterious person...well you said
it best let your argumnets stand or fall on their own merits..they
fall far I assure you. The person you speak of is someone you don't
want to get to know. Everyone in the Serrada community has chosen to
avoid him. As for what he says about me fine. Let him come and post
his own fucking message. At best he's a coward hiding behind an
ignorant coward. At worst....he's not any different than
DrSmith666...a paranoid delusional schizo.
> > If your MA is as good as your debating skill(solely limited to
> >inapplicable ad hominem) then to say you suck is just not adequate.
> >
> >
> See my above first two notations- people who live in glass houses, sonny
> boy...
I bet you can feel your boyfriends electrified dreidle humming up your
ass now can't you? If you think your a better martial artist than me
then you have two choices...live with your erroneous assumption or
meet at a neutral venue in a ring and be FORCED to live with your
erroneous assumptions. Either is fine by me. I'll let you choose.
> >I have nothing against an reasonable, rational member of any faith.
> >
> Oh asswipe- pretentious self aggrandizement.
> >But when any member of said faith becomes irrational and claims that
> >their faith justifies violence in the name of God for a "sliver of
> >land" Let me remind you of a few things in the Torah or Old testament
> bingo- now your misquoting, then interpreting from what you've made up.
No there's no misquotation. you said it several times. You're an
incurable imbecile.
> >1) God is PERFECTLY capable of committing violence. He is omnipotent.
> >He doesn't need your help.
> >
> >2)If it's just a 'sliver of land' then why not give it up or better
> >yet SHARE it? Arabs and REAL ISRAELIS have been living there for
> >millennia.
> >
> >3) Even if God did promise the 'land of jacob' to his descendants does
> >that mean He didn't WANT them(not you, since you're just a WANNABE
> >zionist) to share it? What happened to benevolence, grace and mercy?
> Your concocted argument is fallacious debate coach. it assumes the
> jewish didn't share it.
THEY DON'T YOU IMBECILIC FUCK DON'T YOU WATCH THE NEWS?
> I can prove your wrong, well state arguments and information to that effect.
> Can you do likewise?
I can and I have.
> >Mr Goldberg, hymie, whatever your homemade name is...try and stay on
> >topic for future debates or guys like myself and others will slaughter
> >you verbally, and at leisure. Your attempts at adhominem are just
> >stupid...theyre not even funny.
> >
> >Give my love to your boobie and sadie,
> >
> >Phillip J. Inoy
> >Guro, CSE
> >
> >PS: Did I mention you're a potzer?
> Ok, the emailers told me of your psychiatric problems- your paxil and
> valium and booze. Your a dumbass, a two bit
> slob- go take your meds.
> I didn't want to denigrate other people who have made good adjustments
> to their chemical imbalances,
> but your a dickhead sociopath.
> You and your phony 'benevolence, grace, and mercy'-
> and tell your psychiatrist to UP THE DOSES, because it apparently isn't
> doing the job
The booze commment comes from an earlier post from Khalid when he
thought I was drinking. Sufis are against even the slightest bit of
alcoholic consumption. I am not a sufi. So I KNOW your lying about the
emailers. There was perhaps only one person (a lurker not a regular
poster)who would say anything negative against me, but even he
wouldn't accuse me of lying. But I tell you what. I'll make you a
deal. You email me privately the list of emailers who said these
things and their emails as well and I'll come back on this list and
confirm that you did so and that despite being an idiot...that you are
not lying in this case to support your cause.
Otherwise I will claim that you are categorically lying. The
pharmaceutical info you seem so happy to bandy about as if I were
offended by it could have been found in any of my posts to Khalid
during our argument phase.
I've fabricated nothing about my past, my skill, and neither you nor
anyone else has any reason to think otherwise. To state so is just
proof you're an imbecile. and of course if you have any doubts such
that you'd like to test them well ok. I'm not hard to find. If I'm
such a coward with no skill then bring your a-game. We'll make it
legal and everything. We'll find a venue and do a winner loser split
of the proceeds of the MMA bout 70-30%. I'll have it filmed at my
expense and show it on the internet.And the loser will be banned from
posting on RMA for life under any pseudonym or real name. How's that
for stakes?
Put up or shut the fuck up. Now you get to decide if the "info" you've
received was of any quality. Whether those emails..if they exist at
all, are of any value. I hope for your sake that they are so
significantly convincing that you are willing to meet me in an MMA
bout, or even at a local dojo here or anywhere under sparring
conditions. It doesn't fucking matter.
You see, mr halfass jew. You don't fool a man who spent his summers
growing up in the worst barrios of Chicago. I plan on attending as
time permits as many serak seminars as I can. Maybe we can meet then.
I will make sure you know I'm there. I assume you've some relation to
Silat being on this thread in the first place. Don't run. Let's settle
this like reasonable men who have a quarrel and have said things
neither wish to go back on. We will do it legally. Whenever you
choose.
Personally I think your just a fucking silver spoon faggot jew who
probably got raped at schule...and I don't need to pretend that
someone sent me an email to figure that out.
Do you even PRACTICE MA? Somehow my gut feeling tells me otherwise.
I'm not usually wrong either. At best you are an armchair MA-ist with
little or no real skill whatsoever.
Hymie, get the fuck off of RMA. Faggot jagoffs like you just don't
belong. Frankly even Oliver Richman or Dr. Smith 666 were more of a
martial artist than you are.
There, you've been called out. Don't worry if you live too far away.
I'll keep this thread in mind as I travel the country on the seminar
circuit. If I'm ever in your area you can be sure I'll contact you.
Don't run. You've called me a liar about my skills as an eskrimador
and a coward. And my response is simple. You have as many chances as
you wish to prove me a liar and videotape it.
Yours truly,
Mark Goldberg
>What a joy to hear from you Mark!
>
>
>
right back at you steve.
Let me say, we can agree to disagree on certain matters and issues,
without vituperation.
I have a busy week- and would prefer to discuss specifically what you
wrote- but I have to earn a living, and I'm way behind, so I've got to
get working.
Let me post an article written by a guy, a populist, an arab, a
christian, and a very patriotic american. I like a great deal of
what he says and writes- it is not specific to what you discussed, but
there are some common threads and I offer it too you
for what it speaks of, in regard to our discussion.
Mark
-------------
Monday, March 3, 2003
What I mean by 'Islamo-fascism'
By Joseph Farah
Some people still maintain Iraq could not possibly be in league with the
likes of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist network because, after
all, Saddam Hussein is a "secular" dictator, and bin Laden is an
"Islamic fundamentalist."
While it's true that most Arab regimes fear the jihadists, it is also
true that many have sponsored them – Iraq being just one example.
In fact, Iraq actively supported al-Qaida for a full decade leading up
to Sept. 11, 2001. That support is well-chronicled in Yossef Bodansky's
"Bin Laden: The Man Who declared War on America." (Keep in mind this
book was published a full year before Sept. 11.) Bodansky names names,
dates, times, places. The man the U.S. Congress turns to as a terrorism
expert leaves little doubt about Iraq's long history with al-Qaida.
Iraq even went so far as to provide the fuselage of a Boeing 707
airliner to the terrorists so they could practice hijacking techniques.
To me, this fact alone more than justifies the coming war against Iraq.
But, more to the point, why would the "secular" dictator of Iraq support
the jihadists? The answer: Because they have more in common than you think.
Obviously it is true that both al-Qaida jihadists and Hussein share a
common hatred of America and Israel. But the answer is deeper than that.
More broadly speaking, they both hate Jews, Christians and Western
Civilization. While one, Hussein, is only nominally a devotee of Islam,
the other, bin Laden, is fanatically devoted to his faith.
That's enough common ground for them to share an evil ideology I call
"Islamo-fascism." This is the real enemy we face on a global scale.
There are many faces of Islam – some malignant, some benign. But there
is one force challenging the U.S., Israel, Christians and Jews
worldwide. That force is Islamo-fascism.
Understanding the concept of Islamo-fascism can help you understand why
millions of non-Muslims around the world have been rallying to stop the
war on Iraq. They may not be Muslims, but they are sympathetic to
aspects of fascism. This ideology had broad appeal in France and Germany
60 years ago. It should not be difficult to understand its renewed
appeal in those two countries.
You see, fascism is not what most people think it is. It is not the
"right wing" polar opposite of "left wing." Instead, as I have explained
many times before, fascism is a form of socialism and a kissing cousin
of communism. Both are totalitarian ideologies that require broad state
control, if not ownership, of the means of production.
But you may also notice that both communism and fascism share varying
degrees of antipathy toward Jews and Christians and Western Civilization.
Now, perhaps, you can see why the peace marchers, many of whom describe
themselves as "progressives" and socialists, have more sympathy for
Saddam Hussein than they do for Israel and the United States.
For more than 20 years, I have been writing about a growing unholy
alliance between the socialists (both communist-oriented and fascists)
and the radical Islamic world. Fascism is the force that binds them
together.
Why do fascists and other socialists hate America, Christians and Jews?
Because they detest and reject the idea of a transcendent God who
reveals absolute moral law to the human race. Fascists and communists
both reject that notion for their own reasons. Communists reject it
because they seek to impose God-like authority on the state, and
fascists reject it because they traditionally seek to impose an
alternate religious value system on the people.
Nazis, for instance, sought to restore an ancient pre-Christian
consciousness – or a kind of paganism – on the people of Germany.
Likewise, the Islamo-fascists – be they Saddam Hussein or Osama bin
Laden – have their own unique religious perspectives.
Are you beginning to understand how and why Hussein and bin Laden can
create a political and military marriage of convenience? Are you
beginning to understand how and why white, skinhead, neo-Nazi-types
could be recruited to work alongside Islamo-fascists in acts of
terrorism, such as the Oklahoma City bombing?
To defeat an enemy, you must first identify it.
We're not fighting a war on "terrorism." Terrorism is merely a tactic of
war. We're also not fighting a war against Islam. It's time to recognize
just whom we are fighting, what we are up against. The enemy is
Islamo-fascism. And that's just another way to say the enemy is fascism.
Badger Jones
<st...@thunderrock.net> wrote:
>It's that Martial Brotherhood - crosses ALL national, ethnic, racial and
>economic boundries!
"Violence - the only *truly* international language"
It's true - whether you agree with the person or not, it is nice to
speak with someone who knows a sidekick isn't just the guy who hung
around with the Cisco Kid.