How can Mr Van Donk be a Grand Master in Ninjitsu
Steven Schmidt
>I would like to know how it works that a person like Mr van Donk can be A
>Grand Master when Grand Master Masaaki Hatsumi is also a Grand Master.
>Does anyone have any history on the so called "dragon" award Mr van Donk
>recieved from Masaaki Hatsumi.
>Is van Donk a Higher rank than Stephen Hayes.
>Who was Masaaki's 1st Student,Hayes or van Donk.
>Please E mail answers to me
>jbeukes.liasec.infolink.co.za
RVD is not a grandmaster in Bujinkan. Where did you hear that one?
R. Steven Schmidt <euro...@his.com>
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Cristian Bayer
I am a personal student of Shihan Van Donks and also the person who runs
the Bujinkan Ninjutsu America webpage. To answer the first questions
posted by Johann Beukes:
Grand Master is a person who has the rank of master and has taught other
people up to that rank. Therefore he is the master of a master which
makes him a grandmaster. There can many "grandmasters" in one art. In
the Bujinkan system the person that heads our art is Soke Hatsumi. Soke
means head of the family. Hatsumi Sensei holds no rank. There is no
rank anyone can achieve to equal his.
So Shihan Van Donk is not the Grandmaster of Ninjutsu. He holds a 10th
degree blackbelt in the art which technically is a master degree and
has taught others who hold high degrees.
The Dragon Award is the highest award given in the Bujinkan. I do
believe that Shihan Van Donk holds a higher degree than Shihan Hayes.
This is because Shihan Van Donk goes to Japan a few times every year to
train with Hatsumi sensei as well as meeting outside of Japan for Tai
Kais. I don't know how often or when the last time Shihan Hayes went to
Japan or a Tai Kai. Not to say he doesn't, don't take me wrong I am not
trying to say anything bad about Shihan Hayes, I don't personally know
him so I couldn't say what he does. I hope to meet him at the San
Francico, CA. seminar he and Jack Hoban and others are putting on.
Hatsumi Sensei's first foreign student was Daron Navon from Israel who
start somewhere around 1976. Niether Shihan Van Donk or Shihan Hayes
was the first.
I hope this straightens out any confusion.
Shodan Bayer
Steven Schmidt
Van Donk, printed with her permission, of course:
I find Mr. Seago's letter to you and the fact that you would choose to
ask Mr. Seago, who is
certainly not an expert on Shihan Van Donk, rather than Mr. Van Donk
himself where the title
comes from very interesting. Is your purpose to stir up things or to
get true information? Since
Shihan Van Donk is at the moment in Japan training with Soke Hatsumi I
will set the record
straight on what I see as the pertinent issues here.
Richard is an inheriting Grandmaster of an Eskrima system which was
passed to him upon our
teacher's death in 1994. He also is the founder of his own system
called Bushindo. As far as the
Bujinkan is concerned he has never claimed anything other than the
title given to him by Hatsumi
Soke which is Shihan. He always has and always will consider himself a
student.
The Golden Dragon award is a medallion given by Soke to those who have
helped to further the
cause of budo in the Bujinkan. Richard received one in 1991.
You can ask Shihan Hoban himself as whether it was through him that
Richard got any rank. He'll
probably laugh at you.
And as far as a teacher requiring their students to call them Sensei -
get off it. How many
martial arts schools have you walked into and referred to the head
instructor as "Hey you" Mr.
Seago seems to have some sour grapes somewhere.
If you were truly looking for truth and not just to create more bad
feelings or spread
misinformation this should help
Ninpo Ikkan
Linda Van Donk, Shidoshi
Ashidome
Bujinkan is concerned he has never claimed anything other than the
title given to him by Hatsumi
Soke which is Shihan. He always has and always will consider himself a
student. <<
Funny, I always thought that Shihan was an honorary title given to a
person by one's students and not an official rank handed out by the Soke
Hatsumi or the Bujinkan.
If someone would clear this up for me, I would greatly appreciate it.
Liz maryland
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Liz maryland
editor, Ura & Omote -- Online Ninjutsu Newsletter
e-mail: Ashi...@aol.com
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Ashidome
>> In Ura & Omote this month in the article entitled 'Gidelines for
partisipation
in the Bujinkan' it states: True shihan at fifteenth dan. surgesting that
it is
given along with the grade.<<
Yes, but I believe that Mr. Van Donk is not a "Void" (15th) dan, yet.
Perhaps he is. I, however, am not really sure. Hence my question and
confusion.
Steve Weigand
Ashidome <ashi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Yes, but I believe that Mr. Van Donk is not a "Void" (15th) dan, yet.
>Perhaps he is. I, however, am not really sure. Hence my question and
>confusion.
>- - - - - - - - - - - -
>Liz maryland
Liz,
Could you please explain the Bujinkan rank system? Where did
this "15th" dan thing come from? Last I heard, the highest rank
was 10th, and that Hatsumi sensei held it. I suppose Hatsumi
sensei can do whatever he wants with the rank system, what with
him being the grand-master and all. :-)
Thanks,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@ssnet.com)
Edward Hardman
>
> Funny, I always thought that Shihan was an honorary title given to a
> person by one's students and not an official rank handed out by the Soke
> Hatsumi or the Bujinkan.
>
> If someone would clear this up for me, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Liz maryland
In Ura & Omote this month in the article entitled 'Gidelines for partisipation
in the Bujinkan' it states: True shihan at fifteenth dan. surgesting that it is
given along with the grade.
---Edd
--
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¦¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ har...@argonet.co.uk
¦¦¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦
¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦ ¦¦¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ Norwich Bujinkan Ninjutsu Dojo
¦¦¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦ ¦¦
¦¦¦¦ ¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
¦¦ ¦¦
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¦¦ ¦¦
¦¦ ¦¦
Edward Hardman
> Could you please explain the Bujinkan rank system? Where did
> this "15th" dan thing come from? Last I heard, the highest rank
> was 10th, and that Hatsumi sensei held it. I suppose Hatsumi
> sensei can do whatever he wants with the rank system, what with
> him being the grand-master and all. :-)
>
10th kyu = white belt
9th kyu - 4th Kyu = green belt
3rd kyu - 1st kyu = brown belt
Shodan - 10th dan = black belt
11th dan - 15th dan = Elemental grades (the highest being void)
Hope this helps.
John Minden
wrote:
> Funny, I always thought that Shihan was an honorary title given to a
> person by one's students and not an official rank handed out by the Soke
> Hatsumi or the Bujinkan.
>
> If someone would clear this up for me, I would greatly appreciate it.
In the style in which I train (Seido) we call all students above the rank
of godan Shihan. So we reserve it for sixth degree black belts and above.
Naturally, there are not very many.
_________________________
John Minden
min...@soho.ios.com
212 929 0087
Edd Hardman
> > Sure.
> > 10th kyu = white belt
> > 9th kyu - 4th Kyu = green belt
> > 3rd kyu - 1st kyu = brown belt
> > Shodan - 10th dan = black belt
> > 11th dan - 15th dan = Elemental grades (the highest being void)
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > ---Edd
> >
> >
> >
>
> I have never seen a brown belt used in Japan !
> Most places use the badge and stars to distinguish grades, if they bother at
> all
Hey! I'd never seen a brown belt in the Bujinkan (in or out of Japan) untill I
had a load of goodies sent to me by the British shihan Peter King. The info
that I gave (above) is drawn from these goodies.
I only got it all quite recently so it is quite possible that it hasent got
everywhere yet, or that lots of places havent been botherd to change. It could
also be that it is just a variation in Bujinkan Great Britan but I do not think
that Peter would make such a large change to just the UK.
White Belt 10th Kyu
Green Belt 9th kyu - 4th kyu (Ten Ryaku No Maki)
Brown Belt 3rd kyu - 1st kyu (Chi Ryaku No Maki)
Black Belt 1st dan - 15th dan(Jin Ryaku No Maki)
11th - 15th dans are broken into Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, and Ku.(Earth, water, fire,
wind, and void)
Hope this helps to clear things up,
Southern Star
4th...highest ranked under Grand Master Hatsumi.
ric...@ice.net.au
<har...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> wei...@ssnet.com (Steve Weigand) wrote:
>
> > Could you please explain the Bujinkan rank system? Where did
> > this "15th" dan thing come from? Last I heard, the highest rank
> > was 10th, and that Hatsumi sensei held it. I suppose Hatsumi
> > sensei can do whatever he wants with the rank system, what with
> > him being the grand-master and all. :-)
> >
> Sure.
> 10th kyu = white belt
> 9th kyu - 4th Kyu = green belt
> 3rd kyu - 1st kyu = brown belt
> Shodan - 10th dan = black belt
> 11th dan - 15th dan = Elemental grades (the highest being void)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> ---Edd
>
>
>
I have never seen a brown belt used in Japan !
Most places use the badge and stars to distinguish grades, if they bother at all
--
Richard Jones
Bujinkan Hobart Dojo
Cristian Bayer
>
> Yes, Please explaine the Ninjitsu Rank system and who is the 2nd, 3rd,
> 4th...highest ranked under Grand Master Hatsumi.
O.k. The Ninjutsu Rank system goes from 9th Kyu to 1st Kyu and then from
1st dan to 10th dan. There is no one who is ranked 2nd or 3rd or
anything else under Masaaki Hatsumi. He is the Soke which means he is
the head of our system. There is no rank that can equal it. There are a
few people who hold the rank of 10th dan but no one is first, second or
so on. That isn't the point in the Bujinkan.
And once again Shihan Van Donk is not a grandmaster in Ninjutsu. He has
never claimed to be and who ever started this is mistaken. I am a
personal student Shihan Van Donk, just to let you know the source.
michael fazekas
The patch and star system is as close to "official" a system as it
gets in Japan.
Mike
"Hey amigo; get off the cross -- the natives need the wood"
Edd Hardman
The bujinkan ranking system is something of an odity in the MA world, as no one
can agree on what it actualy is.
After some futher research it turns out that the brown belt that I referd to
earlyer is UK specific. The Spanish and some others use blue belts, not all the
Bujinkan schools have the women wear red belts, some only use the black belt and
denote grade through the badges and stars.
Oddly, the badges remain constant througout the Bujinkan. Red background with
white lettering for the Kyu grades, red backgrond with black lettering for 1st
dan - 4th dan, red background with black text outlined in white for 5th - 9th
dan, and a natty green and orange number for the 10th dans.
What system does your school use ?
Hissho=Certain Victory
he is grandmaster of his own sytem called Bushindo. Is this not so?
This must be where the confusion is coming from. He has a diagragm in
his dojo, showing all the aspects that are a part of this system
(including Budo Taijutsu, formerly known as Ninpo Taijutsu, formerly
known as Ninpo). He has a brochure in his dojo in Santa Cruz that says he is grandmaster, and
has won some sort of award from some sort of grandmaster association. I
also have a brochure from his dojo, calling him grandmaster of Bushindo. I
addressed this in an earlier article in the following way:
"Grandmastership is a funny thing. Anybody can create their own system
and call themselves grandmaster. From there, the grandmastership can be
handed down to whomever they want. I will leave it up to you to decide
what a good system is. Personally, I am grandmaster of my own system
called Huang Dao, which means the Yellow Way. When attacked, we run like
hell. Personally, I've never been defeated.
I have seen Shihan Van Donk, he is a very nice person and he has some good
things to teach...even if he is silly enough to call himself a grandmaster."
As a student of his, please reply as to the truth of what I have said
above. This thread has gone on long enough. Mr. Van Donk also, has an
e-mail address. If he can respond, that would be even better.
Peace, Love and Penetrating Truth,
Hissho
Cristian Bayer
ric...@ice.net.au
> > I have never seen a brown belt used in Japan !
> > Most places use the badge and stars to distinguish grades, if they bother at
> > all
>
> had a load of goodies sent to me by the British shihan Peter King. The info
> that I gave (above) is drawn from these goodies.
>
> I only got it all quite recently so it is quite possible that it hasent got
> everywhere yet, or that lots of places havent been botherd to change. It could
> also be that it is just a variation in Bujinkan Great Britan but I do
not think
> that Peter would make such a large change to just the UK.
>
> White Belt 10th Kyu
> Green Belt 9th kyu - 4th kyu (Ten Ryaku No Maki)
> Brown Belt 3rd kyu - 1st kyu (Chi Ryaku No Maki)
> Black Belt 1st dan - 15th dan(Jin Ryaku No Maki)
> 11th - 15th dans are broken into Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, and Ku.(Earth, water, fire,
> wind, and void)
>
> Hope this helps to clear things up,
>
and Ed Lomax.
Take care
Richard
Hissho=Certain Victory
responded to this posting (which I also sent to him and Shihan Van Donk
via e-mail). In any case, the brochure showing him to be grandmaster of
Bushindo was hanging on the wall of his dojo when I was there. Take a
look for yourself if you are ever in Santa Cruz and see if it is still there.
Hissho
Hissho=Certain Victory (his...@ccnet.com) wrote:
: Shihan Van Donk does not claim to be a grandmaster in Ninjutsu, however,
Hissho=Certain Victory
: Shihan Van Donk does not claim to be a grandmaster in Ninjutsu, however,
: he is grandmaster of his own sytem called Bushindo. Is this not so?
: This must be where the confusion is coming from. He has a diagragm in
: his dojo, showing all the aspects that are a part of this system
: (including Budo Taijutsu, formerly known as Ninpo Taijutsu, formerly
: known as Ninpo).
Huzzah! Finally got a response from Richard Van Donk. There is no doubt
that he is not and doesn`t claim to be grandmaster of ninjutsu. The
questions is, is he grandmaster of Bushindo. I will ask him again. His
response is given below. I don`t mean to be a pain in the ass. I do
like to have the truth on the table before us, though.
" Subject: Re: How can Mr. Van Donk be a Grand Master in Ninjutsu
Date: 22 Mar 1996 09:23:26 -0800I am not a Grandmaster in Ninjutsu, I never
have claimed to be nor never will be a
Grandmaster in Ninjutsu. The only true Grandmaster in Ninjutsu is Soke
Masaaki
Hatsumi in
Japan. Period. End of story.
The only battles worth winning are the ones we play unknowingly in our minds
against
ourselves. Let us all become conscious of the effects our actions take in the
world.
Obtaining internal and external peace and balance is the goal of all true
warriors. We in
Obtaining internal and external peace and balance is the goal of all true
warriors. We in
the Bujinkan must pull together to help create an extended family of friends
who will share
with each other.
Thanks for your inquiry and best wishes in your training.
Richard Van Donk, American Bujinkan Dojo"