Shuai Chiao throws, how they vary vs Judo (Answers part II)!! (LONG!)
Albert Yang
Baltimore, as a cryptographer, and I don't trust either. Bluetooth's
algorithm looks very weak, and WiFi uses RC4, which is vulnerable if the
first 256 bytes aren't thrown out on init() call. That said, I think a
VPN tunnel on WiFi is the way to go personally. (That's what I use)
Second.. So I went to the park. The numbers there were a lot lower due
to SARS. But when I got there, I saw a group of people, and they were
practicing. It looked totally like Tai Chi... and so I was a bit
disappointed... I commented that it looks just like Tai Chi, and he
says, that's because it IS Tai Chi, the Shuai Chiao is on the other end
of the park.
So to the other end I go.. And I saw some weapons practice, including:
Sword, Nunchucks, Staff, Chain with a metal diamond thingy on the end
of it, (I have no clue what the weapon is called, but I'm sure someone
else does).
And then, came Master Wu. (Wu Qin Ren) David Lin was on a world tour,
and so didn't show up, otherwise, I would have loved to talk to him.
http://www.changshuaichiao.com/csc_fam_twn.htm <-- you can see a
picture of Master Wu here.
A little background on Master Wu... He was the teacher there for the
informal group of about 20 (usually) but only 5 showed up, due to SARS.
He is currently getting his Masters at SooChow University (same U as
my gf's) in.... Shuai Chiao history!! So.. I found the jackpot here.
So I attempted to pick his brain until he got annoyed because I have
made the class late by 40 minutes: (What I can remember, and understand:)
First, Shuai Chiao is a SYSTEM. It is a Chinese Martial Arts, and so it
has: Kicks, Punches, Throws, Holds, and weapons. These are the basic
requirements for being called a Chinese Martial Arts.
Second, there are 8 MAJOR philosophies in Shuai Chiao. What are they?
I'm not too sure. They are in "traditional Chinese" and so I didn't
understand it, but he did demonstrate a few of the philosophies.
One of them is "Replace". (Best I can do in a feeble attempt to
translate a language that is a few thousand years old to one that is a
few hundred) It works like this: If you are standing in "A" and I am
standing in "B", one of the Shuai Chiao philosophies is if I can control
the space you currently occupy. So if I move forward, and you back up,
I'm in the space you use to be in, and you are not in the space I use to
be in, and thus, I am in control. Another is "plane replacement". I
have 6 choices on how to attack you, linear along the X,Y,or Z axis. I
can also attack you (curved) about the X,Y, or Z axis. So if you attack
me (linearly) on the X axis (say a straight punch), then I want to
introduce a force, that is not linear on X, to counter it. I can sweep
in with a hand to block (about the X axis) I can raise a forearm (linear
along the Y axis) or I can pivot and extend, along the Z axis.
The other philosophies, I couldn't understand, as my chinese sucks, and
even my gf, who is a native here, can't understand it, as it's in
ancient Chinese. So I tried my best, sorry.. He said to explain it to
me, would take more than "just a few minutes". BUT... he demostrated.
So I now have FIRST HAND Shuai Chiao experience.
Before I get there, let me tell you that there is "Combat Shuai Chiao",
and "Sport Shuai Chiao". These people do "Combat".. and thus, couldn't
tell me much about Sport Shuai, which they feel is not that great, as
it's a watered down "safe" version,which defeats the purpose of Shuai Chiao.
So why "Combat Shuai Chiao" people won't ever be seen with a Judoka
anytime soon..
So he had me grab his collar, in the back. He reached across with his
arm, and I heard my wrist ..SNAP! My eyes teared, and I thought he
broke my wrist. He said, he could have, if he cocked his neck, and as
my wrist is swollen, I believe him. He said, based on Shuai Chiao
philosophy, to try to "get out" of the grip is not smart, using force
against force. You want to introduce another force, which he did...
Second, he had me get into a stance. He approached with a punch, and
told me to move... I did, and I got thrown, sideways. (Confusing?
Trust me, I got thrown, and I'm still confused as to how) So I said, I
wasn't ready that time, and so for him to try it again. He did, and I
was ready for the side throw, but he had a pretty deep ankle hook on me,
and so I saw the leg hook coming, and so I stepped back... only to be
thrown again. (Note to Ben and Eric here.. The fall is awkward. more
like being tripped instead of being thrown. You are off balance. Also,
90% of the time, he had a hold on me somehow, and on one of the throws,
he tipped me, and as I was falling, he hooked my back leg as well, and
so I "Flop" landed.. as my legs were pulled from under me. Some
knowledge of breakfall helped me a lot, but not like in Judo...) I
didn't really know how he did it, and so he pulled one of his students
over, and showed me so I can get not just the second person perspective,
but a third person perspective as well. The philosophy introduced
"possible movements" in every situation.
So he talked about Shuai Chiao, as a philosophy. He didn't care too
much what I was going to do, all he saw was Axis's that he was going to
attack. Upper body was one set, lower body was another. Left side was
one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me, and
they might not be the same for the different parts. So while he might
introduce a punch, he might have every intention of throwing the punch
so I would move towards a certain direction. (making a move so in
return, your opponent will make a move) that's fairly common. So he
gave me a very very quick demonstration of "choices". From my fighting
stance, without controlling the upper body, he proceeded to throw me by
taking out the legs with his legs. He did so from various angles and
did it, even when I was in a traditional "cat stance". There was one
throw, I remember, there was a flash of thought in my head, I can go
down, or have my knee snap. He smiled, he said he was a bit scared, but
figure I would pick the right reaction. (The throw was: I'm in a south
paw stance, his left foot steps up, his in-step is touching the crest of
my right foot, he punches, I move, and what I don't notice, is that it
was a punch plus right knee .. The knee is aimed at the back of my
right knee. I twist my body slightly, and avoid the punch, and then he
merely pushes sideways, hard. At that point, unknown to me, my right
leg is actually trapped from the knee on down, and so I can pivot so I
land on my left side, or I can get my knee tweaked in ways it wasn't
meant to. So I took it in the shoulder and hips.. (Again, no roll was
possible, one of my body parts is trapped) Had he been not so nice, he
could have pushed more sideways vs back, and my knee would have been bye
bye..
There are 3 levels: (The vs. Judo part)
First level, throws are setup by grabbing the shirt. (but does not use
a strong grip like Judo) and so most traditional Judo Gi's they felt
were good for this. BUT, it's FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY. Examples
like a collar hook, most can't do it correctly, and get the throws
right, and so they introduced a shirt as the aid, so you can work on the
technique and not have to worry about a slippery neck.
Second level, is a shirt based setup, and a shirtless throw. This is
the "street level" application, as most T-shirts are not strong enough
for you to pitch the guy grabbing the shirt.
Third level, is 100% non-clothing based. So the setup, and throws are
all shirtless. Also, the throws are setup using punches or kicks.
As for the question of uniforms. He laughed, said that they could care
less, felt the Gi's were good for training, but since advance throws are
all shirtless, it didn't matter. Everybody that showed up, was in just
T-shirts and sweats. Most where at least "level 2" and so all throws
where moving towards shirtless. He thought the subject was stupid and
so didn't care to comment too much on it.
Shuai Chiao is a system, and so there are "throws". There is the
(roughly translated), far throw, close throw (sticky throw), and there's
the locked throw.
I asked him about Judo, and he says, Judo is most of the entire subset
of the "close throw" or "sticky throw". That is where you are close
enough to grab, and "stick" on the person. Judo has a slightly more
complete set of sticky throws, but Judo does not have far throws, and
has very little locked throws. Locked throws are throws when you have a
body part locked or trapped.
http://www.changshuaichiao.com/techniques.htm <-- I don't know if this
throw is part of Judo. But if you take a look, notice after the fall,
(The balding guy is David Lin) he still has a hold on the arm. If there
was an attempt to roll to breakfall (to the left side like taught in
Judo), he'd be in an armbar right now. Also, notice in picture #3, he
could have "bumped" him to the right, and he would have gone down,
shoulder first. According to Master Wu, situations like that, the
thrower might choose to land with you, as your ACL is extended into a
full rotation, and so landing on it with the thrower's weight (and
continuing to extend it) on say a hard surface, will rip the shoulder
out. This can also be turned into a dangerous throw, as David Lin here,
can hook upwards his right arm, take a step back, shank downwards, and
have the student land on his head.
So as far as breakfalls, there's Judo-esque breakfalls for far throws
and sticky throws, but locked throws generally, there is almost always
no way to do clean breakfalls..(as I experienced, as a clean breakfall
might make you lose a bodypart)
He said that far throws were not possible in Judo, because there is no
punch and kick setup. Far throws (power throws) were a bit scary. I
watched them warm up, and one of the moves was a hop back, into a squat,
with the head swooshing down, and arms forward, like you have an axe in
your hand, and you are chopping wood. How does that work? If you were
in a Muay Thai-ish clench, and I stick a knee upwards, and you charge
out, I would (while keeping the neck hook) hop back into a squat, and
slam your head into the ground. (In WWF, I think X-Pok does it, called
the X-Factor). I thought, that's a fairly difficult setup isn't it?
Let's say we are both in Gi's... And you are a Judoka, and you reach
behind my neck, and get that nice DEEP collar grip on me. Got a good
grip? Yes? Good! I hold onto your arm, and I do a full sprawl
backwards. Short of you being able to lift me up one handed by the
collar (maybe you are Sapp..) you are going to eat dirt.. Also, to add
a variation so you don't let go, I'll probably have rolled my arm around
yours, to tighten your grip. So, most of what you learn in Shuai Chiao
was designed to inflict maximum damage, with minimum effort. To take on
"Judo rules" would break its core philosophy, and so you won't see
Combat Shuai Chiao rolling with Judo or BJJ anytime soon. None of them
had experience in Sport Shuai Chiao, and so nobody commented on that.
As for his opinions of Judo, here's what he said. He thinks Judo sucks
as a complete system for self defense. (I don't think anybody has made
the Claim that Judo is a complete self-defense system... but Mike
probably will). If it's taken as a sport, fine, it's like basketball
etc.. But as far as history, as he's a Martial Arts historian, he says
that the "sticky throws" set is the set in which Judo came from. The
biggest problem he has with Judo, is it doesn't teach a complete
philosophy. Shuai Chiao is a system, and philosophy. As far as throws,
Shuai Chiao has thousands, as it is paired with actions and reactions,
but there is of course a limited set within each type. Nobody has
bothered to count throws in Shuai Chiao, as there are too many, and
variations that depend on the situation, makes it almost impossible. As
far as sticky throws, Shuai Chiao should have just as many, as it takes
into account, all the possible directions you can take a human body or
joint. There are some throws that are catagorized as "lethal", and so
aren't taught generally.. (what's lethal? I'm not too sure, but
basically throws that make you land on your head, and I land on top of
your neck.. again, probably highly combat effective, but not practical
for sparring)
As far as Submissions, he says that BJJ has by far more submissions.
But most submissions are not combat effective, as to why submit an
opponent via say an armbar, when you had many chances to break it in the
first place? So there are a few limited number of submissions. There
is pretty much no chokes. In almost all "chokable" situations, you
could have broken multiple body parts. I don't know if it's true; but
so far, thinking of the more classic chokes.. Triangle, collar, scarf
etc.. It's true, you can break a lot more things with less effort..
Upon the question of History, he said that Shuai Chiao has a long
history, he is currently studying writings about the ruleset in the
sport as far as the Yellow Emperor. There is Shuai Chiao from different
parts, and every part has their own history, and he avoided the
question, as that is the thesis of his work, and he says, when he's done
with his thesis, he will give me a copy, and that should answer all.
But, here's what he did tell me. There is little as far as Combat Shuai
Chiao left in China, if any at all. The combat effective (non-sport)
Shuai Chiao, ALMOST died.. It did die in China, but is still alive in
Taiwan, due to Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng. His brothers went back to
China to teacfh it, but most of his brothers died at a fairly young age,
and no student(s) are known to have taken up the task of teaching it,
after that.
Bao Ding Kuai Chiao is the direct lineage.. And now currently only
available in Taiwan and the US. He also talked about the now deprecated
philosophy of martial arts in asia. Before the invention of guns, he
who knew martial arts, ruled. And so masters were careful to teach it
to someone who wouldn't abuse the fact. But this has resulted in death
of the martial arts (as seen in Shuai Chiao in China) and so they have
woken up to the new fact, that which is not open, will die.. And so
they have begun to teach it to whomever wants to learn. Good for them.
The only thing they ask, is the student is willing to train hard, and
learn, and be diligent about it. Not too much to ask I don't think...
Also, he says the martial arts is "passed on" not just taught. The
difference being, for example, a math class is taught, but there are A
students and F students. But they "pass on" the martial arts, that
means, no F students... Only A students.
Warmups and Katas:
The warmups for Shuai Chiao were strange, they did actions I had not
really seen in any of the other martial arts. It looked a lot like "wax
on wax off" stuff. They had katas as well. But as Shuai Chiao is
suppose to be combat effective, Master Wu demonstrated some of the moves
that were kata moves, and why they practice it. So Shuai Chiao is not
that concerned with katas being pretty as more, katas being effective.
He had a student do a part of a kata, and they apply it to a real life
attack situation. I was impressed. Very few martial arts that are
heavy on the katas have been able to show me that..
I was so impressed with what I saw, that I will probably learn Shuai
Chiao... The class is free, and so no cost to me, but they are tough,
physically demanding and also requiring a lot of thinking and mental
toughness..
I hope I addressed all the questions I was suppose to ask, if not, ask
me, and I'll see if I remember his answer, or else ask him the next
time. Next week, I probably can't go again, but the week after that,
should be no problem, and David Lin is said to return maybe end of this
week, and so next time I go, I should be able to talk to him as well.
Albert.
coldblood
daito-ryu, others.. not so much.
i'd be very interested to see a demo if i am ever near one.
andrew
"Albert Yang" <albert...@achtung.com> wrote in message
news:b9n47g$l3eoa$1...@ID-172581.news.dfncis.de...
Online Psychic
one of the best training reports in the history of this group.
Anyway, I'll try to avoid all the hating which has hijacked some of the
threads on this subject, but here is my two cents. FWIW, my background is
aikido (~7yrs), judo (~3yrs), bjj (~1yr).
The most significant point of note here for me is that "combat" shui chiao,
in particular the joint locking throws sounds a lot like the jujitsu throws
from which judo is derived; and also judo is pretty much these "dangerous"
made "safe" for randori practice. e.g., ippon seoi nage can be done with the
arm locked out, osoto gari can be done with your hand against their head and
to drive onto the ground.
Which leads to my next point. Probably the most important reason why judo
and bjj are so effective is that they can be (and are) practised 100%. From
the paragraph about sparring (in Part 1 of the report), I read the clause
"assisted by a decent partner" which made its sound like it was cooperative
sparring like aikido. The bit about katas also sounded alarm bells for me.
My comment is this- how much of how much of shui chiao can be done 100%?
Actually, that is a rhetorical question, since I'm assuming the answer is
very little. Hence the existence of the "sport" variety. And if this is the
case, then I can only conclude that shui chiao remains "unproven" like
countless other traditional styles.
t
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kirks_bitch
"Albert Yang" <albert...@achtung.com> wrote in message
> First, Shuai Chiao is a SYSTEM.
I....nahh. Never mind ;-)
> One of them is "Replace". (Best I can do in a feeble attempt to
> translate a language that is a few thousand years old to one that is a
> few hundred) It works like this: If you are standing in "A" and I am
> standing in "B", one of the Shuai Chiao philosophies is if I can control
> the space you currently occupy. So if I move forward, and you back up,
> I'm in the space you use to be in, and you are not in the space I use to
> be in, and thus, I am in control.
Judo
> Another is "plane replacement". I
> have 6 choices on how to attack you, linear along the X,Y,or Z axis. I
> can also attack you (curved) about the X,Y, or Z axis.
The unmentionable one has videos on this. maybe its a Sambo thing as well?
Richard?
> So he had me grab his collar, in the back. He reached across with his
> arm, and I heard my wrist ..SNAP!
Nikyo? That move is the shit ;-) Though I can;t do it to save my life
http://www.ufa-aikido.de/dojo/nikyo.jpg
> First level, throws are setup by grabbing the shirt. (but does not use
> a strong grip like Judo)
Interesting. More like wrestling under / over hooks?
> Shuai Chiao is a system, and so there are "throws". There is the
> (roughly translated), far throw, close throw (sticky throw), and there's
> the locked throw.
aikido, judo, JJJ ;-)
> I asked him about Judo, and he says, Judo is most of the entire subset
> of the "close throw" or "sticky throw". That is where you are close
> enough to grab, and "stick" on the person.
Cool
>Judo has a slightly more complete set of sticky throws, but Judo does not
have > far throws,
It's in the kata. No one uses them. Do a search for kote hineri (?). Ben
will know.
> has very little locked throws. Locked throws are throws when you have a
> body part locked or trapped.
> http://www.changshuaichiao.com/techniques.htm <-- I don't know if this
> throw is part of Judo.
Popular variation of uchi mata. Yes, you pretty much always hold onto the
limb as you throw. The classic one is taiotoshi to straight armbar.
>But if you take a look, notice after the fall,
> (The balding guy is David Lin) he still has a hold on the arm. If there
> was an attempt to roll to breakfall (to the left side like taught in
> Judo), he'd be in an armbar right now.
Vs breaking your coccyx? ;-)
> He said that far throws were not possible in Judo, because there is no
> punch and kick setup. Far throws (power throws) were a bit scary.
Damn skippy. That's why aikido folks leap thru them, to save our own joints
from being torn asunder.
> got a good grip? Yes? Good! I hold onto your arm, and I do a full
sprawl
> backwards. Short of you being able to lift me up one handed by the
> collar (maybe you are Sapp..) you are going to eat dirt..
Aww... I can't let go? I can't shoot my arm forwards through your overhook,
grab your upper back and sit through to guard / elevator?
Dammit. ;-)
(yes, you have to be fast. I'll give you that. Most judoka aren't use to
face forward throws)
> So, most of what you learn in Shuai Chiao
> was designed to inflict maximum damage, with minimum effort.
There as certain irony in that you used that phrasing ;-)
> As far as Submissions, he says that BJJ has by far more submissions.
> But most submissions are not combat effective, as to why submit an
> opponent via say an armbar, when you had many chances to break it in the
> first place?
.... ? .... Why submit when you can tear it off to put on your mantle piece?
> so far, thinking of the more classic chokes.. Triangle, collar, scarf
> etc.. It's true, you can break a lot more things with less effort..
What does SC prefer to break from those positions? I can see shoulder from
kesa, maybe ankle if he starts chasing you with his foot.
> I was so impressed with what I saw, that I will probably learn Shuai
> Chiao... The class is free, and so no cost to me,
Bonus
> but they are tough, physically demanding
Bonus 2
> and also requiring a lot of thinking and mental
> toughness..
Bonus 3
Good stuff. Sounds like a fun place to train. I'm not suprised with the
similarity re: japanese arts. infact, if you read the rma faq, it sound a
*ton* like sambo.
Did you get to check any of the other places out?
Richard Lancashire
> > Another is "plane replacement". I
> > have 6 choices on how to attack you, linear along the X,Y,or Z axis. I
> > can also attack you (curved) about the X,Y, or Z axis.
>
> The unmentionable one has videos on this. maybe its a Sambo thing as well?
> Richard?
Not really, sambo as I've seen it taught is similar to judo and
wrestling - fairly technically-based, as opposed to principle-driven.
We use the principles of in-plane and out-of-plane movement/balance in
ROSS, to varying degrees; much more so in the US, from what I've seen
and heard. I think it's down to what the individual instructors pick
up on as being of key importance in teaching, rather than any
particular emphasis or otherwise in Russia.
Martial arts appears currently to be lagging only 400 years behind the
enlightenment, having just discovered Cartesian co-ordinates... :P
Cheers
Rich
Olaf
Thanks for the report Albert, interesting reading. The locked throws
sound like what you see in jiu jitsu; I'm curious about how they
practice them in a fully resisting environment, since this was always
the problem with jiu jitsu. Given how much practice it takes to
learn the "sticky" throws properly, and that the change from
cooperating partner to improvising opponent in the case
of "sticky" throws is a huge transition I'd think they have to
have a way of practicing the "locked" throws in a sparring
scenario for them to be effective.
I'm not sure how the "far" throws differ from the "sticky"
throws, they seem to be a subset of them and the example
you gave sounds like the sort of thing you see in a deep
squat morote seo nage.
His assessment of judo as self defense (it sucks) is the normal
opinion of fighters talking about a different discipline; unless he's
beaten judoka with his level of training it says more about his
opinions than anything else. He'd fit in R.M.A. nicely, as we
all tend to do a variation of it.
That judo came from the "sticky" throws goes back to the
question of the time frame involved. We have the
India-China-Japan sequence that most folks agree with,
the question becomes when in this sequence the transfer
occurred. I guess this also is throw specific, as some
throws probably developed independently (ippon seo
nage, o goshi and o soto gari type throws you see in
almost every form of wrestling, and kata garuma was
taken by Kano from western wrestling according to
my old sensei).
The one question that might be nice to ask if you get
a chance is about the supposed competition between
judoka and shiao jiao teams, since without direct
competition there's no way to tell what is and isn't
effective. If you get a chance to ask and he's heard
of it, be sure to ask for specifics of the teams involved.
Great report,
-Olaf
Albert Yang
> sound like what you see in jiu jitsu; I'm curious about how they
> practice them in a fully resisting environment, since this was always
> the problem with jiu jitsu. Given how much practice it takes to
> learn the "sticky" throws properly, and that the change from
> cooperating partner to improvising opponent in the case
> of "sticky" throws is a huge transition I'd think they have to
> have a way of practicing the "locked" throws in a sparring
> scenario for them to be effective.
I'm not sure if that's as big of a problem as most people make it out
to believe.. Because most people who train for a Marathon, don't ever
run 26 miles before hand..
Also, I think from what I can see, it's a speed vs. full power issue. I
can go full speed, and 70% power, knowning probably what full power will
be like, if I ever need to use it.
>
> I'm not sure how the "far" throws differ from the "sticky"
> throws, they seem to be a subset of them and the example
> you gave sounds like the sort of thing you see in a deep
> squat morote seo nage.
Olaf, I can answer this one without asking him. I wrestled and so, a
"sticky" throw in the classic chinese sense, is what you see in Judo.
What is catagorized as a "long throw or far throw" is something like a
wrist and collar throw in wrestling. You "pitch" the guy, with minimal
contact left after the throw..
>
> His assessment of judo as self defense (it sucks) is the normal
> opinion of fighters talking about a different discipline; unless he's
> beaten judoka with his level of training it says more about his
> opinions than anything else. He'd fit in R.M.A. nicely, as we
> all tend to do a variation of it.
His assessment isn't that Judo sucks, so much as if Judo is called a
system, then that's not true..
>
> That judo came from the "sticky" throws goes back to the
> question of the time frame involved. We have the
> India-China-Japan sequence that most folks agree with,
> the question becomes when in this sequence the transfer
> occurred. I guess this also is throw specific, as some
> throws probably developed independently (ippon seo
> nage, o goshi and o soto gari type throws you see in
> almost every form of wrestling, and kata garuma was
> taken by Kano from western wrestling according to
> my old sensei).
The timeframe problem... OK, I'll ask him next time.
> The one question that might be nice to ask if you get
> a chance is about the supposed competition between
> judoka and shiao jiao teams, since without direct
> competition there's no way to tell what is and isn't
> effective. If you get a chance to ask and he's heard
> of it, be sure to ask for specifics of the teams involved.
>
Olaf, I asked that. His reply was, "Ask someone that does
Competition/Sport Shuai Chiao.." The problem is, Combat Shuai Chiao is
taught for PURELY self defense, and so testing of your skills in
competition is somewhat difficult. It would take a lot of conceeding on
each person's part... But I'll ask him if there has been any "memorable"
SC vs. Judo matches..
Mike Sigman
"Olaf" <ol...@I.Hate.Spam.com> wrote in message
news:3EBFA43A...@I.Hate.Spam.com...
>
> We have the
> India-China-Japan sequence that most folks agree with,
> the question becomes when in this sequence the transfer
> occurred.
I remember long ago on RMA getting into another fight with the Japanophiles
on this list about the same issue. I guess I'm just not into the "Japan is
Best" versus "China is Best" issue since, to me, it's simply a history
matter and if I'm arguing with people that don't have a true sense of the
history of the Asia region, it's a waste of time. However, the comment was
made a couple of times that "there wasn't that much contact between China
and Japan so there were only a few times in history when that exchange could
have happened, yada, yada, yada". When a Japanophile (not derogatory; I
mean it as opposed to someone more interested in the total history
perspective) says that, they're not thinking. I've listed before the things
that Japan has "borrowed" from the Chinese culture when it was the dominant
power (for many centuries) in that region; they include but are not limited
to:
1. Alphabet (modifiers added to conform to language parameters)
2. Clothing, hairdo's, accessories
3. Measurement systems
4. Medicine (acupuncture and qi-paragdigm treatments are the "traditional"
Japanese treatments)
5. Martial systems and weapons
6. "Science" (in the traditional sense)
7. Manufacturing processes
etc.
The extent of those borrowings and the minutiae involved tend to end the
discussion that "there were only limited contacts". So your question of
"when this transfer ocurred" in relation to the judo-shuai jiao issue
unfocuses immediately because the chances for transfer were many, not few.
FWIW
Mike
kirks_bitch
"Richard Lancashire" <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> We use the principles of in-plane and out-of-plane movement/balance in
> ROSS
MINE EYES!! THEY DOTH BURN. YARRRRGHH. YE SPEAK THE UNMENTIONABLE.
Well, that's it. 700 posts on Ross comin up... sigh ;-)
Do you have the IOUF tape? I heard this was pretty much what it covers.
> Martial arts appears currently to be lagging only 400 years behind the
> enlightenment, having just discovered Cartesian co-ordinates... :P
Obviously, you've not been bounced on your skull enough. Marks off for being
witty and on topic. That just won't do in these parts....
KILL HIM MY ROBOTS. MuWhhhhAAAA.
Olaf
Mike Sigman wrote:
> "Olaf" <ol...@I.Hate.Spam.com> wrote in message
> news:3EBFA43A...@I.Hate.Spam.com...
> >
>
>
> The extent of those borrowings and the minutiae involved tend to end the
> discussion that "there were only limited contacts". So your question of
> "when this transfer ocurred" in relation to the judo-shuai jiao issue
> unfocuses immediately because the chances for transfer were many, not few.
>
>
Okay, that's a good point, but it also suggests that knowledge went
both ways. At least in terms of military technology the Japanese
were China's equal for most the last millenium, although it could
be argued that unarmed self defense has had little to do with the
military since at least neolithic times (and probably ceased being
meaningful in warfare since the invention of the pointed stick,
although I don't know enough about early history to say for
sure).
As well, I suspect you have to go through it on a throw-by-throw
basis. Many of the judo throws are independently found
among North American natives, aborginals, European
wrestling and so on. The "one source" for all things judo
seems very unlikely, as Kano himself admitted to studying
books on western wrestling.
-Olaf
Olaf
Albert Yang wrote:
> Olaf wrote:> Thanks for the report Albert, interesting reading. The
> locked throws
> > sound like what you see in jiu jitsu; I'm curious about how they
> > practice them in a fully resisting environment, since this was always
> > the problem with jiu jitsu. Given how much practice it takes to
> > learn the "sticky" throws properly, and that the change from
> > cooperating partner to improvising opponent in the case
> > of "sticky" throws is a huge transition I'd think they have to
> > have a way of practicing the "locked" throws in a sparring
> > scenario for them to be effective.
>
> I'm not sure if that's as big of a problem as most people make it out
> to believe.. Because most people who train for a Marathon, don't ever
> run 26 miles before hand..
>
I don't think that's a good analogy, simply because the difference
between running 10K and a marathon is simply one of endurance
rather than technique, while the difference between applying a
technique against a cooperating partner and an improving resisting
opponent means modifying techniques to react to differeing circumstances
and positions. There are too many possible positions to train for
them all by rote, all you can do is become good at improvising, which
requires practice (ie sparring). Even outside the differences in neural
training
required by unexpected actions, the onset of resistance is
different between a cooperating partner and an opponent.
You see this in every sport. You won't become a championship
tennis player if your practice consists solely of returning shots
sent to pre-arranged positions by your coach. You can
do boxing drills for years but if you don't spar you'll have almost
no chance of defeating someone who has sparred regularily.
>
> Also, I think from what I can see, it's a speed vs. full power issue. I
> can go full speed, and 70% power, knowning probably what full power will
> be like, if I ever need to use it.
No, its a question of timing, reaction, balance. Against an opponent
you'll have to be able to apply your technique against openings
that appear and dissappear instantaneously, from off balance
positions, and against a resistance which varies greatly in
time. You'll have to learn to recover from your opponents feints,
and counter-attacks. Fighting is a very complex activity simply
because you're dealing with an opponent who can improvise.
This is what makes it much harder to train for than things like
high jump or running in which the conditions are relatively
stable.
>
> >
> > I'm not sure how the "far" throws differ from the "sticky"
> > throws, they seem to be a subset of them and the example
> > you gave sounds like the sort of thing you see in a deep
> > squat morote seo nage.
>
> Olaf, I can answer this one without asking him. I wrestled and so, a
> "sticky" throw in the classic chinese sense, is what you see in Judo.
> What is catagorized as a "long throw or far throw" is something like a
> wrist and collar throw in wrestling. You "pitch" the guy, with minimal
> contact left after the throw..
There are judo throws like tomoe nage and uki otoshi which do this,
tho in general its better to hold on and go into ne waza if you can.
>
> >
> > His assessment of judo as self defense (it sucks) is the normal
> > opinion of fighters talking about a different discipline; unless he's
> > beaten judoka with his level of training it says more about his
> > opinions than anything else. He'd fit in R.M.A. nicely, as we
> > all tend to do a variation of it.
>
> His assessment isn't that Judo sucks, so much as if Judo is called a
> system, then that's not true..
I guess this is sematics. By the dictionary any of the martial arts
is a system, I'm guessing he's using it in a more specialized way?
>
> > The one question that might be nice to ask if you get
> > a chance is about the supposed competition between
> > judoka and shiao jiao teams, since without direct
> > competition there's no way to tell what is and isn't
> > effective. If you get a chance to ask and he's heard
> > of it, be sure to ask for specifics of the teams involved.
> >
> Olaf, I asked that. His reply was, "Ask someone that does
> Competition/Sport Shuai Chiao.." The problem is, Combat Shuai Chiao is
> taught for PURELY self defense, and so testing of your skills in
> competition is somewhat difficult. It would take a lot of conceeding on
> each person's part... But I'll ask him if there has been any "memorable"
> SC vs. Judo matches..
Unfortunately without competition or actual combat testing
doesn't occur at all, which brings up an argument that really
should be part of the R.M.A. FAQ and which I guess there's
no point to go into :).
-Olaf
Mike Sigman
>
> As well, I suspect you have to go through it on a throw-by-throw
> basis. Many of the judo throws are independently found
> among North American natives, aborginals, European
> wrestling and so on. The "one source" for all things judo
> seems very unlikely, as Kano himself admitted to studying
> books on western wrestling.
I haven't quibbled on the addition of throws, etc., from outside sources...
what I did say was that the use of full groupings of throws, locks, etc.,
from the Chinese tends to preclude the isolation of things Japanese from the
Chinese origins. Kano I'm sure got *some* things from other sources, but
the basic genesis of judo MUST be from shuai jiao because the parallels are
to large to ignore. Insofar as things "going both ways", a quick look at
the myriad Chinese martial arts in general and what they use and have used
traditionally for millenia... I wouldn't bet a dime on the "China may have
got it from Japan" hope.
Mike
TK Sung
>
> Okay, that's a good point, but it also suggests that knowledge went
> both ways. At least in terms of military technology the Japanese
> were China's equal for most the last millenium,
>
in the late16th century which did not quite lasted a millenium. Even then,
Hideyoshi didn't quite make it to China, being stopped at Pyong-yang by
Chinese-Korean alliance after making a big mess of much of the peninsula.
The flow of culture and technology, as far as I know, had been mostly from
China to Japan, often through Korea, in ancient times. Chinese, believing
that they were the center of the world, would not have taken much from Japan
back then.
In any case, any relationships between martial arts are nothing more than
wild speculation as there are no archeological/historical evidences to back
up one theory over the other. Likewise, the assumption, at the absence of
concrete evidence of the relationships, that one martial art evolving
independent of others is also a speculation
Ben Holmes
>
>
>"Olaf" <ol...@I.Hate.Spam.com> wrote in message
>news:3EBFC6A0...@I.Hate.Spam.com...
>>
>> As well, I suspect you have to go through it on a throw-by-throw
>> basis.
Good idea.
>> Many of the judo throws are independently found
>> among North American natives, aborginals, European
>> wrestling and so on. The "one source" for all things judo
>> seems very unlikely, as Kano himself admitted to studying
>> books on western wrestling.
>
>I haven't quibbled on the addition of throws, etc., from outside sources...
>what I did say was that the use of full groupings of throws, locks, etc.,
"Full groupings of throws..." What do you mean by this? Are you referring to
the way the throws are broken into categories?
>from the Chinese tends to preclude the isolation of things Japanese from the
>Chinese origins. Kano I'm sure got *some* things from other sources, but
>the basic genesis of judo MUST be from shuai jiao because the parallels are
>to large to ignore.
While it must be nice to talk about parallels in the abstract, many people here
on RMA are competent enough in Judo to be interested in the hard core facts.
It seems silly to talk about how something *MUST* be - on the basis of parallels
that cannot be given.
Mike Sigman
"TK Sung" <tks...@wahoo.com> wrote in message
news:09Rva.21$hh4.4...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
I wouldn't say the relationships are "nothing more than wild speculation".
In many cases there are documentations about names that are derived from
Chinese names of the arts. In some cases the names are deliberately hung
from the Chinese as a *claim* to derive from the famous and powerful arts of
long ago... e.g., "Tang Soo Do" ("Way of the Chinese Fist"). Also the
history of many Chinese arts and the names of postures, applications, etc.,
can be traced back a very long way through Chinese records.... so if a
Japanese, Thai, Burmese, Indonesian, etc., art uses a percentage of the
same/similar techniques in the same general format it becomes statistical
probability, rather than "speculation". Particularly if the same groups of
throws, joint-locks, etc., are not found in the same obvious orders in other
martial arts around the world. In other words, some buffoon may argue that
there is a similar throw on Cornwall in England, but the statistical
importance of a single throw or few throws is nothing compared to groupings
of throws, locks, etc. A lot of this is obvious when someone sees both
judo and shuai jiao comparatively.... and bears in mind that the throws,
etc., of shuai jiao go very far back PLUS they are replicated in a number of
very old arts (partially or fully) that are documented in Chinese records.
It would be nice if there were similar records in Japan, but there are
not... but it's not really necessary since the age, etc., of the Chinese
records is reasonably established.
FWIW
Mike
Olaf
Mike Sigman wrote:
Its not a hope, I don't have Japanese ancestry so its only a question
of academic interest to me. I'm suspicious because its rare
that information only flows in one direction; it only occurs where there
is a huge technological gap between countries, which doesn't
seem to occur with the Chinese and Japanese. The Japanese
admitted to a cultural inferiority to the Chinese for much (though
not all) of the last millenium, but that isn't likely to play a very
large role in military matters, which tend to be very pragmatic
in a country with on going civil wars such in Japan. In fact
China's success in cultural matters removed much of its
incentative to develop superior military technology, as did
its internal stability.
Furthermore, by the time Kano was developing judo China
was looked down upon by the Japanese, who considered
themselves militarily very superior to the Chinese. Its hard
to see why they would be looking to the Chinese at that
point to see how to fight.
-Olaf
Olaf
TK Sung wrote:
> "Olaf" <ol...@I.Hate.Spam.com> wrote in message
> news:3EBFC6A0...@I.Hate.Spam.com...
> >
> > Okay, that's a good point, but it also suggests that knowledge went
> > both ways. At least in terms of military technology the Japanese
> > were China's equal for most the last millenium,
> >
> Hm, I don't know about that, unless you are talking about Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> in the late16th century which did not quite lasted a millenium. Even then,
> Hideyoshi didn't quite make it to China, being stopped at Pyong-yang by
> Chinese-Korean alliance after making a big mess of much of the peninsula.
> The flow of culture and technology, as far as I know, had been mostly from
> China to Japan, often through Korea, in ancient times. Chinese, believing
> that they were the center of the world, would not have taken much from Japan
> back then.
>
Its not a question of the Japanese being able to conquer the Chinese;
geography and population sizes would have made that impossible. But
you can't look at the military technology used by the various armies
and say that for most of the last millenium one had a large advantage
over the other, which is what you would expect if you're postulating
that military technology always went in one direction.
>
> In any case, any relationships between martial arts are nothing more than
> wild speculation as there are no archeological/historical evidences to back
> up one theory over the other. Likewise, the assumption, at the absence of
> concrete evidence of the relationships, that one martial art evolving
> independent of others is also a speculation
Yup, this is just idle at work speculation; strictly speaking its probably
impossible to prove anything conclusively. But where's the fun in that?
-Olaf
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure how the "far" throws differ from the "sticky"
>> throws, they seem to be a subset of them and the example
>> you gave sounds like the sort of thing you see in a deep
>> squat morote seo nage.
>
>Olaf, I can answer this one without asking him. I wrestled and so, a
>"sticky" throw in the classic chinese sense, is what you see in Judo.
>What is catagorized as a "long throw or far throw" is something like a
>wrist and collar throw in wrestling. You "pitch" the guy, with minimal
>contact left after the throw..
Sumi otoshi -
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumiotoshi.htm
Uki otoshi -
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm
That sort of thing?
Mike Sigman
>
>
> >Insofar as things "going both ways", a quick look at
> > the myriad Chinese martial arts in general and what they use and have
used
> > traditionally for millenia... I wouldn't bet a dime on the "China may
have
> > got it from Japan" hope.
> >
> >
>
> Its not a hope, I don't have Japanese ancestry so its only a question
> of academic interest to me. I'm suspicious because its rare
> that information only flows in one direction; it only occurs where there
> is a huge technological gap between countries, which doesn't
> seem to occur with the Chinese and Japanese. The Japanese
> admitted to a cultural inferiority to the Chinese for much (though
> not all) of the last millenium, but that isn't likely to play a very
> large role in military matters, which tend to be very pragmatic
> in a country with on going civil wars such in Japan. In fact
> China's success in cultural matters removed much of its
> incentative to develop superior military technology, as did
> its internal stability.
Well, don't forget the intervention of the western powers and the
significance that their technology had on both Japan and China. The
relationship with Japan was more entrenched because the Japanese allowed
them in (what else could they do, ultimately?). So Japan began to gain
military superiority over China through the advent of western weapons, as
part of the whole picture.
>
> Furthermore, by the time Kano was developing judo China
> was looked down upon by the Japanese, who considered
> themselves militarily very superior to the Chinese. Its hard
> to see why they would be looking to the Chinese at that
> point to see how to fight.
Yeah, but as I noted, it was military power based on western weapons that
put Japan ahead. But the secret admiration of things Chinese and the belief
in their superiority STILL hasn't left all aspects of Japanese culture,
particularly in the "ancient arts", in which the martial arts belong.
Mike Sigman
>
>
>>
> Its not a question of the Japanese being able to conquer the Chinese;
> geography and population sizes would have made that impossible. But
> you can't look at the military technology used by the various armies
> and say that for most of the last millenium one had a large advantage
> over the other, which is what you would expect if you're postulating
> that military technology always went in one direction.
Like I indicated in another post..... Japan never had a significantly better
military technology than China until they acquired western technology. The
flow was mainly one way, from China to Japan. After the advent of western
technology, it was western technology that flowed to China, not Japanese
martial arts technology (in the main).
Mike
TK Sung
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vbvon9a...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> so if a
> Japanese, Thai, Burmese, Indonesian, etc., art uses a percentage of the
> same/similar techniques in the same general format it becomes statistical
> probability, rather than "speculation".
>
"probability" under the category of "speculation", though perhaps not "wild
speculation". It sounds similar to linguistics where they establish
familial relationships through certain statistical and etymological
analyses. I suppose that is possible given that martial arts are "systems"
like languages. The problem, then, would be similar to linguistics too, in
that you can't often establish weather the relationship is that of simple
borrowing or familial, or even coincidence. It might make a great Ph.D
thesis for a student of east asian history. Any takers?
> A lot of this is obvious when someone sees both
> judo and shuai jiao comparatively.... and bears in mind that the throws,
> etc., of shuai jiao go very far back PLUS they are replicated in a number
of
> very old arts (partially or fully) that are documented in Chinese records.
> It would be nice if there were similar records in Japan, but there are
> not... but it's not really necessary since the age, etc., of the Chinese
> records is reasonably established.
>
Yes, but that still does not establish weather Judo is derived from Shuai
Jiao or vice-versa, unless there are historical documents that someone came
to japan/china from china/japan with the knowledge and they can be
cross-checked with independent sources.
Mike Sigman
Oh, there may not be apodictic proof in re historical records, but the
scenario yields fairly conclusive logical deductions, as I laid it out.
There may not be documents and videos of the transfer, but the circumstanial
evidence (where the "probability" comes from) can't be ignored and tossed
off with denials.
Mike
TK Sung
>
>
> Its not a question of the Japanese being able to conquer the Chinese;
> geography and population sizes would have made that impossible. But
> you can't look at the military technology used by the various armies
> and say that for most of the last millenium one had a large advantage
> over the other, which is what you would expect if you're postulating
> that military technology always went in one direction.
>
instance, flowed from the West to Japan, and Japan now enjoys a large
advantage in it. Btw, Sun-tzu is still a required reading among Japanese
businessmen. To be fair though, his Art of War probably was developed while
"civil" warfare was prevalent in China and it mostly concerns strategic, not
tactical art that you seem to be talking about. But, in any case, I don't
think you can draw any kind of conclusion regarding the relationship between
martial arts by looking at the military technologies in prospective
countries.
>
> Yup, this is just idle at work speculation; strictly speaking its probably
> impossible to prove anything conclusively. But where's the fun in that?
>
True, it is only Usenet. But it would be more fun if people talk about
possibilities without their own personal, uncompromising biases which tend
to degenerate to troll-fest.
TK Sung
>
> There may not be documents and videos of the transfer, but the
circumstanial
> evidence (where the "probability" comes from) can't be ignored and tossed
> off with denials.
>
interesting to ponder the possibilities, I also think they can be tossed out
and ignored as "logical conclusions". "circumstancial evidences", if it is
what that is, and "logical conclusions" don't go together well.
Olaf
Mike Sigman wrote:
But previous to this China was on par with Japan in terms of
military technology, not advanced as they'd have to be if the
technology was only going in one direction.
>
> >
> > Furthermore, by the time Kano was developing judo China
> > was looked down upon by the Japanese, who considered
> > themselves militarily very superior to the Chinese. Its hard
> > to see why they would be looking to the Chinese at that
> > point to see how to fight.
>
> Yeah, but as I noted, it was military power based on western weapons that
> put Japan ahead. But the secret admiration of things Chinese and the belief
> in their superiority STILL hasn't left all aspects of Japanese culture,
> particularly in the "ancient arts", in which the martial arts belong.
Its possible, but this seems to be unlikely in the case of Kano,
who was trying to modernize jiu jitsu rather than bringing it
back to ancient arts. In fact his whole approach to teaching
would have been considered "modernist" at the time. Also
its not clear how deep the secret admiration went in the general
public by the start of the 20th century; subsequent events
don't exactly show a deep veneration of all things Chinese.
I'm curious about your comment that modern Japanese feel the
Chinese are culturally superior; its never come up with any
of the Japanese I've known, whereas feelings of cultural
envy of America, good or bad, is a common topic.
-Olaf
Mike Sigman
>
>
> But previous to this China was on par with Japan in terms of
> military technology, not advanced as they'd have to be if the
> technology was only going in one direction.
>
Jeez.... do you think the Chinese were importing pre-industrial technology?
Have you ever seen what the Chinese technology was? It was more advanced,
as far as it could be. Not to mention that there is no comparison of the
armies the two had. I simply think you're off base if you're thinking
there was a free-flow going both ways.... you'd see more evidence of it in
other artifacts of Chinese culture and it's simply not there... whereas
Japan is chockablock with Chinese artifacts.
>
> Its possible, but this seems to be unlikely in the case of Kano,
> who was trying to modernize jiu jitsu rather than bringing it
> back to ancient arts. In fact his whole approach to teaching
> would have been considered "modernist" at the time. Also
> its not clear how deep the secret admiration went in the general
> public by the start of the 20th century; subsequent events
> don't exactly show a deep veneration of all things Chinese.
>
> I'm curious about your comment that modern Japanese feel the
> Chinese are culturally superior; its never come up with any
> of the Japanese I've known, whereas feelings of cultural
> envy of America, good or bad, is a common topic.
Actually, what I'm beginning to think is that there is some sort of
embarrassment that they borrowed so much from the Chinese. Those websites
really intrigue me. Particularly when you see some of the costumes,
hair-do's, etc., which are well-known to have been borrowed from the Chinese
in any cultural anthropology studies, on the websites and nary a word is
mentioned about China. There is an almost deliberate downplaying of China
in Japan's past. Part pride and part reaction to what happened in WW2?
Who knows. When China opened its doors in the recent past, it wasn't just
Chen Village that had Japanese photographers and newsmen flocking around...
it was other martial arts, too.
Mike
Mike
Mike Sigman
Hmmmmm.... my statement was that you can't ignore or toss off the
indications that it was the Japanese the borrowed heavily from the Chinese,
that you can't ignore the grouping of technics, tactics and strategies in
Japanese martial arts that can be shown to have been in China for hundreds
and thousands of years, and that you can't ignore the bona fides of Chinese
archives on the subject of their own martial arts. Your statement was that
you "disagree".... do you mean that you think that large supply of data CAN
be ignored? While it is easy to say their is no *definitive* proof, the
weight of evidence is easily on the "started in China" side. And while we
can speculate (trust me, if I could argue the other way I would do it... but
I can't because of the strength of the indicators) on what "might have been"
and discounting the evidence, there is no equal weight of evidence for a
"2-way flow" in those times. If anything, the Japanese were trying their
best to get what info that they could. They didn't build that temple to
Chen near Tokyo in order to celebrate a 2-way flow to their sister-country.
:^)
Mike
TK Sung
>
> Your statement was that
> you "disagree".... do you mean that you think that large supply of data
CAN
> be ignored?
>
ignored, because it is not conclusive and it is not logical. But then,
reading your post again, I see that you were saying the "circumstancial
evidences" could not be ignored. So, I'll limit my disagreement to "fairly
conclusive logical deduction", and admit that it's interesting to ponder the
possibilities based on the similarities.
Albert Yang
> Sumi otoshi -
> http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumiotoshi.htm
>
> Uki otoshi -
> http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm
>
> That sort of thing?
Nope. You are still "holding on" i.e. "sticking" to the person. Far
throws, are more WWF-esque..
Albert
Albert Yang
> Furthermore, by the time Kano was developing judo China
> was looked down upon by the Japanese, who considered
> themselves militarily very superior to the Chinese. Its hard
> to see why they would be looking to the Chinese at that
> point to see how to fight.
>
> -Olaf
>
>
Because China has a MUCH longer fighting history! Today, "Art of War"
is required reading by EVERY military I know of... Because regardless
of those who consider themselves superior or not, "Keep your friends
close, and your enemies closer". ;-)
"He who knows his enemies best, will overcome them"..
Albert
Peter Claussen
<albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
>
> So why "Combat Shuai Chiao" people won't ever be seen with a Judoka
> anytime soon..
>
> So he had me grab his collar, in the back. He reached across with his
> arm, and I heard my wrist ..SNAP!
Yeah, it's a nice trick to discourage that high grip in competition.
You don't always catch the lock, but you do at least make your partner
think twice about it.
> My eyes teared, and I thought he
> broke my wrist. He said, he could have, if he cocked his neck, and as
> my wrist is swollen, I believe him. He said, based on Shuai Chiao
> philosophy, to try to "get out" of the grip is not smart, using force
> against force. You want to introduce another force, which he did...
> Second, he had me get into a stance. He approached with a punch, and
> told me to move... I did, and I got thrown, sideways. (Confusing?
> Trust me, I got thrown, and I'm still confused as to how) So I said, I
> wasn't ready that time, and so for him to try it again. He did, and I
> was ready for the side throw, but he had a pretty deep ankle hook on me,
> and so I saw the leg hook coming, and so I stepped back... only to be
> thrown again. (Note to Ben and Eric here.. The fall is awkward. more
> like being tripped instead of being thrown. You are off balance. Also,
> 90% of the time, he had a hold on me somehow, and on one of the throws,
> he tipped me, and as I was falling, he hooked my back leg as well, and
> so I "Flop" landed.. as my legs were pulled from under me. Some
> knowledge of breakfall helped me a lot, but not like in Judo...) I
> didn't really know how he did it, and so he pulled one of his students
> over, and showed me so I can get not just the second person perspective,
> but a third person perspective as well. The philosophy introduced
> "possible movements" in every situation.
>
> So he talked about Shuai Chiao, as a philosophy. He didn't care too
> much what I was going to do, all he saw was Axis's that he was going to
> attack. Upper body was one set, lower body was another.
Are you familiar with judo kuruma's (wheeling throws) and gari's
(reaping throws) Might make an interesting comparison.
> Left side was
> one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me, and
> they might not be the same for the different parts.
How might this compare with judo's happo-no-kuzushi (i.e. eight
directions of off-balance)?
> So while he might
> introduce a punch, he might have every intention of throwing the punch
> so I would move towards a certain direction. (making a move so in
> return, your opponent will make a move) that's fairly common. So he
> gave me a very very quick demonstration of "choices". From my fighting
> stance, without controlling the upper body, he proceeded to throw me by
> taking out the legs with his legs. He did so from various angles and
> did it, even when I was in a traditional "cat stance". There was one
> throw, I remember, there was a flash of thought in my head, I can go
> down, or have my knee snap. He smiled, he said he was a bit scared, but
> figure I would pick the right reaction. (The throw was: I'm in a south
> paw stance, his left foot steps up, his in-step is touching the crest of
> my right foot, he punches, I move, and what I don't notice, is that it
> was a punch plus right knee .. The knee is aimed at the back of my
> right knee. I twist my body slightly, and avoid the punch, and then he
> merely pushes sideways, hard. At that point, unknown to me, my right
> leg is actually trapped from the knee on down, and so I can pivot so I
> land on my left side, or I can get my knee tweaked in ways it wasn't
> meant to. So I took it in the shoulder and hips.. (Again, no roll was
> possible, one of my body parts is trapped) Had he been not so nice, he
> could have pushed more sideways vs back, and my knee would have been bye
> bye..
How actively were you trying to defend against his attacks?
>
> There are 3 levels: (The vs. Judo part)
>
> First level, throws are setup by grabbing the shirt. (but does not use
> a strong grip like Judo) and so most traditional Judo Gi's they felt
> were good for this. BUT, it's FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY. Examples
> like a collar hook, most can't do it correctly, and get the throws
> right, and so they introduced a shirt as the aid, so you can work on the
> technique and not have to worry about a slippery neck.
>
> Second level, is a shirt based setup, and a shirtless throw. This is
> the "street level" application, as most T-shirts are not strong enough
> for you to pitch the guy grabbing the shirt.
>
> Third level, is 100% non-clothing based. So the setup, and throws are
> all shirtless. Also, the throws are setup using punches or kicks.
>
How are the grips? Wrist? Elbow? Under/overhooks? Around the back?
> As for the question of uniforms. He laughed, said that they could care
> less, felt the Gi's were good for training, but since advance throws are
> all shirtless, it didn't matter. Everybody that showed up, was in just
> T-shirts and sweats. Most where at least "level 2" and so all throws
> where moving towards shirtless. He thought the subject was stupid and
> so didn't care to comment too much on it.
>
> Shuai Chiao is a system, and so there are "throws". There is the
> (roughly translated), far throw, close throw (sticky throw), and there's
> the locked throw.
>
> I asked him about Judo, and he says, Judo is most of the entire subset
> of the "close throw" or "sticky throw". That is where you are close
> enough to grab, and "stick" on the person. Judo has a slightly more
> complete set of sticky throws, but Judo does not have far throws, and
> has very little locked throws.
I'm curious, Albert - do you think, from your discussion, that aikido
throws would be of the "far" throw type? Every now and again there pops
up on Aikido-L the debate that "judo-aikido same-same". Some of this
comes from the similarity among the uki-otoshi/sumi-otoshi type throws
and some forms of kokyu-nages. So if kokyu-nages are far throws, judo
has far throws.
> Locked throws are throws when you have a
> body part locked or trapped.
> http://www.changshuaichiao.com/techniques.htm <-- I don't know if this
> throw is part of Judo. But if you take a look, notice after the fall,
> (The balding guy is David Lin) he still has a hold on the arm. If there
> was an attempt to roll to breakfall (to the left side like taught in
> Judo), he'd be in an armbar right now.
I don't see it - it looks like the person thrown took a pretty standard
judo-like ukemi, landing on his left side. You might ask if they teach
the a counter to this throw, comparable to the judo counter to
uchi-mata. I'm curious if the mechanics of the throw negate the
counter.
> Also, notice in picture #3, he
> could have "bumped" him to the right, and he would have gone down,
> shoulder first. According to Master Wu, situations like that, the
> thrower might choose to land with you, as your ACL is extended into a
> full rotation, and so landing on it with the thrower's weight (and
> continuing to extend it) on say a hard surface, will rip the shoulder
> out.
It looks like he could turn into a maki-komi-kosoto-gari (i.e. hook
uke's right foot with his right foot, while keeping the knee and
falling into uke). Is that in keeping with the shuai jiao philosophy?
>
> So as far as breakfalls, there's Judo-esque breakfalls for far throws
> and sticky throws, but locked throws generally, there is almost always
> no way to do clean breakfalls..(as I experienced, as a clean breakfall
> might make you lose a bodypart)
The pictures look like a pretty clean breakfall.
>
> He said that far throws were not possible in Judo, because there is no
> punch and kick setup.
There are no punch and kick setups in shiai, but there are throws that
are practiced against punches and kicks. Ask him to clarify, if you
could. Did he mean to say that far throws are not performed because
punches aren't performed, or that judo throws per se cannot be made to
work as a far throws?
In other words, do shuai jiao far throws require a punch or kick setup?
> Far throws (power throws) were a bit scary.
I can buy that - taking uke for nage-no-kata is scary, and from your
descriptions quite a few nage-no-kata throws might be of the far
variety.
> I
> watched them warm up, and one of the moves was a hop back, into a squat,
> with the head swooshing down, and arms forward, like you have an axe in
> your hand, and you are chopping wood.
Is this intended to be something like an ippon seoi-nage throw (i.e.,
are you chopping wood with uke at your back, or is he facing you?
> How does that work? If you were
> in a Muay Thai-ish clench, and I stick a knee upwards, and you charge
> out, I would (while keeping the neck hook) hop back into a squat, and
> slam your head into the ground. (In WWF, I think X-Pok does it, called
> the X-Factor). I thought, that's a fairly difficult setup isn't it?
> Let's say we are both in Gi's... And you are a Judoka, and you reach
> behind my neck, and get that nice DEEP collar grip on me. Got a good
> grip? Yes? Good! I hold onto your arm, and I do a full sprawl
> backwards.
I try that trick every once in a while in randori against a deep grip -
doesn't usually work but it does make my opponent rethink his grip
strategy. Although I'm not clear what you mean by sprawl - do you lay
out stomach down (like a wrestlng sprawl) or do you lay out on your
back?
> Short of you being able to lift me up one handed by the
> collar (maybe you are Sapp..) you are going to eat dirt.. Also, to add
> a variation so you don't let go, I'll probably have rolled my arm around
> yours, to tighten your grip. So, most of what you learn in Shuai Chiao
> was designed to inflict maximum damage, with minimum effort. To take on
> "Judo rules" would break its core philosophy, and so you won't see
> Combat Shuai Chiao rolling with Judo or BJJ anytime soon.
Go to Judo-L, you'll find a at least one person that argues (and
argues) that "Judo rules" breaks judo's core philosophy. That's a whole
other debate.
> None of them
> had experience in Sport Shuai Chiao, and so nobody commented on that.
>
> As for his opinions of Judo, here's what he said. He thinks Judo sucks
> as a complete system for self defense.
Many do.
> (I don't think anybody has made
> the Claim that Judo is a complete self-defense system... but Mike
> probably will). If it's taken as a sport, fine, it's like basketball
> etc.. But as far as history, as he's a Martial Arts historian, he says
> that the "sticky throws" set is the set in which Judo came from.
As you say below "There is Shuai Chiao from different
parts, and every part has their own history". Can you find you which
part he thinks judo came from?
> The
> biggest problem he has with Judo, is it doesn't teach a complete
> philosophy.
That's funny, I thought what made judo a "do" instead of a "jutsu" was
the philosophy.
> Shuai Chiao is a system, and philosophy. As far as throws,
> Shuai Chiao has thousands, as it is paired with actions and reactions,
> but there is of course a limited set within each type.
That's probably true for most arts - what is counted and named is the
type of throw, which can be paired multiply with actions and reactions,
as you say. If you want to start a good aikido debate, ask how many
techniques there are.
>
> As far as Submissions, he says that BJJ has by far more submissions.
> But most submissions are not combat effective, as to why submit an
> opponent via say an armbar, when you had many chances to break it in the
> first place? So there are a few limited number of submissions. There
> is pretty much no chokes. In almost all "chokable" situations, you
> could have broken multiple body parts.
Yeah, but sometimes you need to subdue someone without breaking them
into multiple pieces, so chokes and submissions are a nice options.
>
> I was so impressed with what I saw, that I will probably learn Shuai
> Chiao... The class is free, and so no cost to me, but they are tough,
> physically demanding and also requiring a lot of thinking and mental
> toughness..
Sounds fun.
>
> I hope I addressed all the questions I was suppose to ask, if not, ask
> me, and I'll see if I remember his answer, or else ask him the next
> time. Next week, I probably can't go again, but the week after that,
> should be no problem, and David Lin is said to return maybe end of this
> week, and so next time I go, I should be able to talk to him as well.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Peter Claussen
Peter Claussen
<kirks...@operamail.com> wrote:
> "Albert Yang" <albert...@achtung.com> wrote in message
>
> > First, Shuai Chiao is a SYSTEM.
>
> I....nahh. Never mind ;-)
>
> > One of them is "Replace". (Best I can do in a feeble attempt to
> > translate a language that is a few thousand years old to one that is a
> > few hundred) It works like this: If you are standing in "A" and I am
> > standing in "B", one of the Shuai Chiao philosophies is if I can control
> > the space you currently occupy. So if I move forward, and you back up,
> > I'm in the space you use to be in, and you are not in the space I use to
> > be in, and thus, I am in control.
>
> Judo
>
> > Another is "plane replacement". I
> > have 6 choices on how to attack you, linear along the X,Y,or Z axis. I
> > can also attack you (curved) about the X,Y, or Z axis.
>
> The unmentionable one has videos on this. maybe its a Sambo thing as well?
> Richard?
>
> > So he had me grab his collar, in the back. He reached across with his
> > arm, and I heard my wrist ..SNAP!
>
> Nikyo? That move is the shit ;-) Though I can;t do it to save my life
>
> http://www.ufa-aikido.de/dojo/nikyo.jpg
>
> > First level, throws are setup by grabbing the shirt. (but does not use
> > a strong grip like Judo)
>
> Interesting. More like wrestling under / over hooks?
>
> > Shuai Chiao is a system, and so there are "throws". There is the
> > (roughly translated), far throw, close throw (sticky throw), and there's
> > the locked throw.
>
> aikido, judo, JJJ ;-)
>
> > I asked him about Judo, and he says, Judo is most of the entire subset
> > of the "close throw" or "sticky throw". That is where you are close
> > enough to grab, and "stick" on the person.
>
> Cool
>
> >Judo has a slightly more complete set of sticky throws, but Judo does not
> have > far throws,
>
> It's in the kata. No one uses them. Do a search for kote hineri (?). Ben
> will know.
I wouldn't say nobody uses them, it's just that they're hard to pull
off in randori or shiai. But they're damn fun, if you can get the right
attack (like the entry into ippon seoi or ura-nage in nage-no-kata).
>
> > has very little locked throws. Locked throws are throws when you have a
> > body part locked or trapped.
> > http://www.changshuaichiao.com/techniques.htm <-- I don't know if this
> > throw is part of Judo.
>
> Popular variation of uchi mata. Yes, you pretty much always hold onto the
> limb as you throw. The classic one is taiotoshi to straight armbar.
Some people do tai-otoshi or o-soto-gari as a locked throw, if I
understand the concept correctly. Not proper judo, but the kind of
trick that shakes out during competition.
>
> > got a good grip? Yes? Good! I hold onto your arm, and I do a full
> sprawl
> > backwards. Short of you being able to lift me up one handed by the
> > collar (maybe you are Sapp..) you are going to eat dirt..
>
> Aww... I can't let go? I can't shoot my arm forwards through your overhook,
> grab your upper back and sit through to guard / elevator?
>
> Dammit. ;-)
>
> (yes, you have to be fast. I'll give you that. Most judoka aren't use to
> face forward throws)
Don't know 'bout most judoka, but I've taken a few in my life -
sometimes it's accidentally in class, sometimes to avoid giving up the
point in competition.
>
> > So, most of what you learn in Shuai Chiao
> > was designed to inflict maximum damage, with minimum effort.
>
> There as certain irony in that you used that phrasing ;-)
I caught that too.
Peter Claussen
Albert Yang
Yes, I am familiar with the wheeling throws of Judo. I'll have to ask
for a compare/contrast.
>
>
>>Left side was
>>one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me, and
>>they might not be the same for the different parts.
>
>
> How might this compare with judo's happo-no-kuzushi (i.e. eight
> directions of off-balance)?
Probably the same core concept. Anybody with a little bit of physics
will figure most of this out.
>
>
>>So while he might
>>introduce a punch, he might have every intention of throwing the punch
>>so I would move towards a certain direction. (making a move so in
>>return, your opponent will make a move) that's fairly common. So he
>>gave me a very very quick demonstration of "choices". From my fighting
>>stance, without controlling the upper body, he proceeded to throw me by
>>taking out the legs with his legs. He did so from various angles and
>>did it, even when I was in a traditional "cat stance". There was one
>>throw, I remember, there was a flash of thought in my head, I can go
>>down, or have my knee snap. He smiled, he said he was a bit scared, but
>>figure I would pick the right reaction. (The throw was: I'm in a south
>>paw stance, his left foot steps up, his in-step is touching the crest of
>>my right foot, he punches, I move, and what I don't notice, is that it
>>was a punch plus right knee .. The knee is aimed at the back of my
>>right knee. I twist my body slightly, and avoid the punch, and then he
>>merely pushes sideways, hard. At that point, unknown to me, my right
>>leg is actually trapped from the knee on down, and so I can pivot so I
>>land on my left side, or I can get my knee tweaked in ways it wasn't
>>meant to. So I took it in the shoulder and hips.. (Again, no roll was
>>possible, one of my body parts is trapped) Had he been not so nice, he
>>could have pushed more sideways vs back, and my knee would have been bye
>>bye..
>
>
> How actively were you trying to defend against his attacks?
I was ACTIVE. The guy moves fast... very very fast. Also, more like a
Wing Chun system, there is attack attack defense at the same time.
Multiple sets of attacks at the same time... There were also "setup"
attacks, that I'm sure I fell for, I felt a bit upset because I knew..
I could FEEL myself being setup, but couldn't do much about it. (The
difference between skilled vs. unskilled) Also, the other thing that I
observed is like Magician's "slight of hand" type of deal. A lot of
stuff was going on downstairs (knee blocks, kicks etc) but I was pretty
occupied with what was being thrown at my face, so I didn't have time to
pay attention to the footwork.. He said that was common.. So I don't
feel so bad..
>
>
>>There are 3 levels: (The vs. Judo part)
>>
>>First level, throws are setup by grabbing the shirt. (but does not use
>>a strong grip like Judo) and so most traditional Judo Gi's they felt
>>were good for this. BUT, it's FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY. Examples
>>like a collar hook, most can't do it correctly, and get the throws
>>right, and so they introduced a shirt as the aid, so you can work on the
>>technique and not have to worry about a slippery neck.
>>
>>Second level, is a shirt based setup, and a shirtless throw. This is
>>the "street level" application, as most T-shirts are not strong enough
>>for you to pitch the guy grabbing the shirt.
>>
>>Third level, is 100% non-clothing based. So the setup, and throws are
>>all shirtless. Also, the throws are setup using punches or kicks.
>>
>
>
> How are the grips? Wrist? Elbow? Under/overhooks? Around the back?
a lot of elbow based grips. As a wrestler, I saw a lot of "hooks". A
lot more "monkey grips" (thumb on the same side) than full grips. A lot
of the wrist grip is what I call a "bracelet" grip, like forefinger +
thumb only. This is taken (I think) from Tai Chi, which has a "sliding"
grip movement.
>
>
>>As for the question of uniforms. He laughed, said that they could care
>>less, felt the Gi's were good for training, but since advance throws are
>>all shirtless, it didn't matter. Everybody that showed up, was in just
>>T-shirts and sweats. Most where at least "level 2" and so all throws
>>where moving towards shirtless. He thought the subject was stupid and
>>so didn't care to comment too much on it.
>>
>>Shuai Chiao is a system, and so there are "throws". There is the
>>(roughly translated), far throw, close throw (sticky throw), and there's
>>the locked throw.
>>
>>I asked him about Judo, and he says, Judo is most of the entire subset
>>of the "close throw" or "sticky throw". That is where you are close
>>enough to grab, and "stick" on the person. Judo has a slightly more
>>complete set of sticky throws, but Judo does not have far throws, and
>>has very little locked throws.
>
>
> I'm curious, Albert - do you think, from your discussion, that aikido
> throws would be of the "far" throw type? Every now and again there pops
> up on Aikido-L the debate that "judo-aikido same-same". Some of this
> comes from the similarity among the uki-otoshi/sumi-otoshi type throws
> and some forms of kokyu-nages. So if kokyu-nages are far throws, judo
> has far throws.
Yes. Most of the aikido throws are considered "far throws". A throw is
considered a "far" throw when you probably aren't touching the person
when they land. A throw is a "sticky" throw, if after the throw, you
are still in contact with the person, or if you used your body as the
wheel or lever to throw the guy (a lot of judo throws). There are also,
lock throws, where when the guy lands, you still have the same lock as
you did before he fell. There is also a catagory of ... I don't know
what I can call it in english.. Probably the closest is "hooks".
That's like an ankle pick from wrestling. Those are "falls" due to
imbalance on your own. Trips and picks mostly.
>
>
>>Locked throws are throws when you have a
>>body part locked or trapped.
>>http://www.changshuaichiao.com/techniques.htm <-- I don't know if this
>>throw is part of Judo. But if you take a look, notice after the fall,
>>(The balding guy is David Lin) he still has a hold on the arm. If there
>>was an attempt to roll to breakfall (to the left side like taught in
>>Judo), he'd be in an armbar right now.
>
>
> I don't see it - it looks like the person thrown took a pretty standard
> judo-like ukemi, landing on his left side. You might ask if they teach
> the a counter to this throw, comparable to the judo counter to
> uchi-mata. I'm curious if the mechanics of the throw negate the
> counter.
>
I'll ask about counters.
>
>>Also, notice in picture #3, he
>>could have "bumped" him to the right, and he would have gone down,
>>shoulder first. According to Master Wu, situations like that, the
>>thrower might choose to land with you, as your ACL is extended into a
>>full rotation, and so landing on it with the thrower's weight (and
>>continuing to extend it) on say a hard surface, will rip the shoulder
>>out.
>
>
> It looks like he could turn into a maki-komi-kosoto-gari (i.e. hook
> uke's right foot with his right foot, while keeping the knee and
> falling into uke). Is that in keeping with the shuai jiao philosophy?
Yes. The Shuai Jiao philosophy ENCOURAGES dangerous landings.. From
the picture, it seems like a wrestling style "barbedwire" landing with
the guy's arm folded is possible, or better yet, land on the extended
arm and risk breaking it.
>
>
>>So as far as breakfalls, there's Judo-esque breakfalls for far throws
>>and sticky throws, but locked throws generally, there is almost always
>>no way to do clean breakfalls..(as I experienced, as a clean breakfall
>>might make you lose a bodypart)
>
>
> The pictures look like a pretty clean breakfall.
I trust him when he says it's by David Lin's doing, that if he wanted
to, the guy can land on the head, and not so clean of a breakfall.
>
>
>>He said that far throws were not possible in Judo, because there is no
>>punch and kick setup.
>
>
> There are no punch and kick setups in shiai, but there are throws that
> are practiced against punches and kicks. Ask him to clarify, if you
> could. Did he mean to say that far throws are not performed because
> punches aren't performed, or that judo throws per se cannot be made to
> work as a far throws?
>
> In other words, do shuai jiao far throws require a punch or kick setup?
>
No, Shuai Jiao does not require a punch or kick as setup, but I think
what he is saying is that punches and kicks establish a certain
distance, an advantage that Judo has a difficult time gaining, due to a
heavy shirt brabbing background.
>
>>Far throws (power throws) were a bit scary.
>
>
> I can buy that - taking uke for nage-no-kata is scary, and from your
> descriptions quite a few nage-no-kata throws might be of the far
> variety.
There was a few falls that I saw a 3rd person assist with the landing.
Also, the practicing location was on a wooden deck, and so not so soft
like maybe tatami or wrestling mats.
>
>
>>I
>>watched them warm up, and one of the moves was a hop back, into a squat,
>>with the head swooshing down, and arms forward, like you have an axe in
>>your hand, and you are chopping wood.
>
>
> Is this intended to be something like an ippon seoi-nage throw (i.e.,
> are you chopping wood with uke at your back, or is he facing you?
Facing you.
>
>
>>How does that work? If you were
>>in a Muay Thai-ish clench, and I stick a knee upwards, and you charge
>>out, I would (while keeping the neck hook) hop back into a squat, and
>>slam your head into the ground. (In WWF, I think X-Pok does it, called
>>the X-Factor). I thought, that's a fairly difficult setup isn't it?
>>Let's say we are both in Gi's... And you are a Judoka, and you reach
>>behind my neck, and get that nice DEEP collar grip on me. Got a good
>>grip? Yes? Good! I hold onto your arm, and I do a full sprawl
>>backwards.
>
>
> I try that trick every once in a while in randori against a deep grip -
> doesn't usually work but it does make my opponent rethink his grip
> strategy. Although I'm not clear what you mean by sprawl - do you lay
> out stomach down (like a wrestlng sprawl) or do you lay out on your
> back?
The sprawl is a jump backwards, and not a full belly sprawl like in
wrestling, but you end up with your head down, your hands in front of
you touching the ground (like bowing) but in a "rice patty squat". What
that does is, if the first time the guy doesn't fall, as you are in a
full squat already, you can jump back again.. It DEFINITELY makes you
think about grip choices..
>
>
>>Short of you being able to lift me up one handed by the
>>collar (maybe you are Sapp..) you are going to eat dirt.. Also, to add
>>a variation so you don't let go, I'll probably have rolled my arm around
>>yours, to tighten your grip. So, most of what you learn in Shuai Chiao
>>was designed to inflict maximum damage, with minimum effort. To take on
>>"Judo rules" would break its core philosophy, and so you won't see
>>Combat Shuai Chiao rolling with Judo or BJJ anytime soon.
>
>
> Go to Judo-L, you'll find a at least one person that argues (and
> argues) that "Judo rules" breaks judo's core philosophy. That's a whole
> other debate.
>
>
>>None of them
>>had experience in Sport Shuai Chiao, and so nobody commented on that.
>>
>>As for his opinions of Judo, here's what he said. He thinks Judo sucks
>>as a complete system for self defense.
>
>
> Many do.
I can tell you why he thinks so.. In the chinese sense, a martial art
is a martial art if and ONLY if it has:
Kicks, Punches, throws, and locks. They feel that Judo is "jipping"
people, because they are not teaching a complete system.
>
>
>>(I don't think anybody has made
>>the Claim that Judo is a complete self-defense system... but Mike
>>probably will). If it's taken as a sport, fine, it's like basketball
>>etc.. But as far as history, as he's a Martial Arts historian, he says
>>that the "sticky throws" set is the set in which Judo came from.
>
>
> As you say below "There is Shuai Chiao from different
> parts, and every part has their own history". Can you find you which
> part he thinks judo came from?
Yes, there are different Shuai Chiao. Mongolian, there are 4 northern
styles etc.. The "combat" line is the current one here in Taiwan. I'll
ask where he thinks Judo came from, he's a historian, so good place to ask.
>
>
>
>>The
>>biggest problem he has with Judo, is it doesn't teach a complete
>>philosophy.
>
>
> That's funny, I thought what made judo a "do" instead of a "jutsu" was
> the philosophy.
>
>
>>Shuai Chiao is a system, and philosophy. As far as throws,
>>Shuai Chiao has thousands, as it is paired with actions and reactions,
>>but there is of course a limited set within each type.
>
>
> That's probably true for most arts - what is counted and named is the
> type of throw, which can be paired multiply with actions and reactions,
> as you say. If you want to start a good aikido debate, ask how many
> techniques there are.
>
>
>>As far as Submissions, he says that BJJ has by far more submissions.
>>But most submissions are not combat effective, as to why submit an
>>opponent via say an armbar, when you had many chances to break it in the
>>first place? So there are a few limited number of submissions. There
>>is pretty much no chokes. In almost all "chokable" situations, you
>>could have broken multiple body parts.
>
>
> Yeah, but sometimes you need to subdue someone without breaking them
> into multiple pieces, so chokes and submissions are a nice options.
Then you aren't wanting "Combat" at that point.. that's what this system
teaches..
>
>
>
>>I was so impressed with what I saw, that I will probably learn Shuai
>>Chiao... The class is free, and so no cost to me, but they are tough,
>>physically demanding and also requiring a lot of thinking and mental
>>toughness..
>
>
> Sounds fun.
>
>
>>I hope I addressed all the questions I was suppose to ask, if not, ask
>>me, and I'll see if I remember his answer, or else ask him the next
>>time. Next week, I probably can't go again, but the week after that,
>>should be no problem, and David Lin is said to return maybe end of this
>>week, and so next time I go, I should be able to talk to him as well.
>
>
> Any information is greatly appreciated.
>
> Peter Claussen
Albert
Olaf
Albert Yang wrote:
Um, in uki otoshi and sumi otoshi you generally throw the person
away from you. The point in holding on is to be able to control
the person afterwards, but the throws are often done without
holding onto the person. Tomoe nage and yoko wakari are also
often done that way, especially in practice.
-Olaf
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Furthermore, by the time Kano was developing judo China
>> was looked down upon by the Japanese, who considered
>> themselves militarily very superior to the Chinese. Its hard
>> to see why they would be looking to the Chinese at that
>> point to see how to fight.
>Because China has a MUCH longer fighting history! Today, "Art of War"
>is required reading by EVERY military I know of... Because regardless
>of those who consider themselves superior or not, "Keep your friends
>close, and your enemies closer". ;-)
Irrelevant to a discussion of grappling styles.
Richard Lancashire
> MINE EYES!! THEY DOTH BURN. YARRRRGHH. YE SPEAK THE UNMENTIONABLE.
>
> Well, that's it. 700 posts on Ross comin up... sigh ;-)
Oops, sorry. Still, I think the flame wars go more about personalities
than styles. I don't have much of a clue.
> Do you have the IOUF tape? I heard this was pretty much what it covers.
I don't have any of the tapes; got a few from Russia, I only have to
find out what they're saying now. :P
I have to say, I've been training BJJ recently - great stuff, really
interesting, learn a new tip or tweak every week - and the breathing
drills are a real advantage. Well, against the white belts. But
definitely buys time in the knee rides.
Cheers
Rich
Peter Claussen
<albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
> Peter Claussen wrote:> In article
> <b9n47g$l3eoa$1...@ID-172581.news.dfncis.de>, Albert Yang
> > <albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Left side was
> >>one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me, and
> >>they might not be the same for the different parts.
> >
> >
> > How might this compare with judo's happo-no-kuzushi (i.e. eight
> > directions of off-balance)?
>
> Probably the same core concept. Anybody with a little bit of physics
> will figure most of this out.
>
The point is that if judo copied core concepts from shuai jiao you
could expect that Kano would have used 6 directions instead of 8.
> >
> > How actively were you trying to defend against his attacks?
>
> I was ACTIVE. The guy moves fast... very very fast. Also, more like a
> Wing Chun system, there is attack attack defense at the same time.
> Multiple sets of attacks at the same time... There were also "setup"
> attacks, that I'm sure I fell for, I felt a bit upset because I knew..
> I could FEEL myself being setup, but couldn't do much about it. (The
> difference between skilled vs. unskilled) Also, the other thing that I
> observed is like Magician's "slight of hand" type of deal. A lot of
> stuff was going on downstairs (knee blocks, kicks etc) but I was pretty
> occupied with what was being thrown at my face, so I didn't have time to
> pay attention to the footwork.. He said that was common.. So I don't
> feel so bad..
>
Where you also attacking him? Or was he mainly setting you up and
taking you down?
> >
> > How are the grips? Wrist? Elbow? Under/overhooks? Around the back?
>
> a lot of elbow based grips. As a wrestler, I saw a lot of "hooks". A
> lot more "monkey grips" (thumb on the same side) than full grips. A lot
> of the wrist grip is what I call a "bracelet" grip, like forefinger +
> thumb only. This is taken (I think) from Tai Chi, which has a "sliding"
> grip movement.
>
There was a web site that suggested shuia jiao was derived from tai
chi, but I got the impression Mike Sigman pooh-poohed that idea.
> >
> > I'm curious, Albert - do you think, from your discussion, that aikido
> > throws would be of the "far" throw type? Every now and again there pops
> > up on Aikido-L the debate that "judo-aikido same-same". Some of this
> > comes from the similarity among the uki-otoshi/sumi-otoshi type throws
> > and some forms of kokyu-nages. So if kokyu-nages are far throws, judo
> > has far throws.
>
> Yes. Most of the aikido throws are considered "far throws". A throw is
> considered a "far" throw when you probably aren't touching the person
> when they land. A throw is a "sticky" throw, if after the throw, you
> are still in contact with the person, or if you used your body as the
> wheel or lever to throw the guy (a lot of judo throws).
This description would include uki-otoshi and sumi-otoshi (even
tai-otoshi) as far throws.
> There are also,
> lock throws, where when the guy lands, you still have the same lock as
> you did before he fell.
Oops, I made a statement about locking throws in judo that doesn't fit
with this description. I'd assumed, from the pictures in the link you'd
posted, that the lock part involved locking the knee, not the arm
(since it didn't appear that there was a lock at the end of the throw).
> There is also a catagory of ... I don't know
> what I can call it in english.. Probably the closest is "hooks".
> That's like an ankle pick from wrestling. Those are "falls" due to
> imbalance on your own. Trips and picks mostly.
>
Sounds like the judo "gake" throws. Judo also has an ankle pick in the
curriculum.
> >
> >
> >>So as far as breakfalls, there's Judo-esque breakfalls for far throws
> >>and sticky throws, but locked throws generally, there is almost always
> >>no way to do clean breakfalls..(as I experienced, as a clean breakfall
> >>might make you lose a bodypart)
> >
> >
> > The pictures look like a pretty clean breakfall.
>
> I trust him when he says it's by David Lin's doing, that if he wanted
> to, the guy can land on the head, and not so clean of a breakfall.
Unfortunately, that's easy to say, not so easy to do.
>
> >
> >
> >>He said that far throws were not possible in Judo, because there is no
> >>punch and kick setup.
> >
> >
> > There are no punch and kick setups in shiai, but there are throws that
> > are practiced against punches and kicks. Ask him to clarify, if you
> > could. Did he mean to say that far throws are not performed because
> > punches aren't performed, or that judo throws per se cannot be made to
> > work as a far throws?
> >
> > In other words, do shuai jiao far throws require a punch or kick setup?
> >
>
> No, Shuai Jiao does not require a punch or kick as setup, but I think
> what he is saying is that punches and kicks establish a certain
> distance, an advantage that Judo has a difficult time gaining, due to a
> heavy shirt brabbing background.
>
Well, some judoka do practice throwing while their opponent is
attempting to grab, before they've closed the distance. Probably a
similar set up. And some judo schools do train to use the standard
throws against punching and/or kicking attacks (they just call it
jujutsu).
> >
> >>I
> >>watched them warm up, and one of the moves was a hop back, into a squat,
> >>with the head swooshing down, and arms forward, like you have an axe in
> >>your hand, and you are chopping wood.
> >
> >
> > Is this intended to be something like an ippon seoi-nage throw (i.e.,
> > are you chopping wood with uke at your back, or is he facing you?
>
> Facing you.
This sounds similar to a couple throws in the koshiki-no-kata of judo,
then. Except that it's not a hop back into a squat, it's a step back
and kneel.
> > I try that trick every once in a while in randori against a deep grip -
> > doesn't usually work but it does make my opponent rethink his grip
> > strategy. Although I'm not clear what you mean by sprawl - do you lay
> > out stomach down (like a wrestlng sprawl) or do you lay out on your
> > back?
>
> The sprawl is a jump backwards, and not a full belly sprawl like in
> wrestling, but you end up with your head down, your hands in front of
> you touching the ground (like bowing) but in a "rice patty squat". What
> that does is, if the first time the guy doesn't fall, as you are in a
> full squat already, you can jump back again.. It DEFINITELY makes you
> think about grip choices..
>
Doesn't sound like something you'd want to try against a grappler -
grapplers are just as likely to move in as to fall down, the squat may
very well leave you in an indefensible position. The head down parts
doesn't sound too safe either. That's why you need to spar or randori.
> >>
> >>As for his opinions of Judo, here's what he said. He thinks Judo sucks
> >>as a complete system for self defense.
> >
> >
> > Many do.
>
> I can tell you why he thinks so.. In the chinese sense, a martial art
> is a martial art if and ONLY if it has:
> Kicks, Punches, throws, and locks. They feel that Judo is "jipping"
> people, because they are not teaching a complete system.
>
How much time is spent on practicing punches and kicks (as opposed to
just defending)?
> > As you say below "There is Shuai Chiao from different
> > parts, and every part has their own history". Can you find you which
> > part he thinks judo came from?
>
> Yes, there are different Shuai Chiao. Mongolian, there are 4 northern
> styles etc.. The "combat" line is the current one here in Taiwan. I'll
> ask where he thinks Judo came from, he's a historian, so good place to ask.
So maybe judo/jujutsu is of Mongolian origins and not Chinese or
Japanese?
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but sometimes you need to subdue someone without breaking them
> > into multiple pieces, so chokes and submissions are a nice options.
>
> Then you aren't wanting "Combat" at that point.. that's what this system
> teaches..
>
That's where I would quibble about using the term complete.
(Personally, I don't much care for the usage of complete with respect
to martial arts). From my perspective, an art isn't complete if it
doesn't teach controlling techniques, only destruction. Don't care for
the philosophy, either. But then, that's why I stay with judo.
Consider this - a modern system of self-defense must include
non-damaging, controlling techniques; there are legal restrictions on
the amount of deadly force that can be applied in self-defense
situations.
To state that one art is 'jipping' people because it doesn't include
techniques in another art is narrow thinking.
> > Any information is greatly appreciated.
> >
Thanks again.
Peter Claussen
Mike Sigman
"Peter Claussen" <dakot...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:140520030854068237%dakot...@mac.com...
> > >>Left side was
> > >>one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me,
and
> > >>they might not be the same for the different parts.
> > >
> > >
> > > How might this compare with judo's happo-no-kuzushi (i.e. eight
> > > directions of off-balance)?
> >
> > Probably the same core concept. Anybody with a little bit of physics
> > will figure most of this out.
> >
>
> The point is that if judo copied core concepts from shuai jiao you
> could expect that Kano would have used 6 directions instead of 8.
>
> > >
You're reacting to very limited information that Albert is presenting. If
Albert had 6 directions available in one throw, that does NOT necessarily
mean that the subject is the 8 directions. Incidentally, you'll be pleased
to know that the "8 directions" is a concept going back into antiquity in
the Chinese martial arts (all of them, not just shuai jiao).
>
> >
> There was a web site that suggested shuia jiao was derived from tai
> chi, but I got the impression Mike Sigman pooh-poohed that idea.
>
I saw that somewhere, but I can't remember where. It's about as silly as
you can get, given the information available. Taiji appears to have had
some sort of genesis (not the later refined stages, I'm sure) in Shanxi
family before the Chen family was forcibly moved to Henan Province. Shuai
Jiao was in existence long before that. For some "white guy" to opine the
sort of silliness that shuai jiao derives from Taiji is like some
ball-and-powder antique gun nut opining that muskets derive from modern
guns.
>
> This description would include uki-otoshi and sumi-otoshi (even
> tai-otoshi) as far throws.
>
You're clearly at the stage where you need to stop theorizing and
rationalizing how judo is the papa of the family and simply start looking
into it. As I said early on, most of the stuff I mentioned in re judo/shuai
jiao is not really new or something knowledgeable people would tend to argue
in Asia.
> > I can tell you why he thinks so.. In the chinese sense, a martial art
> > is a martial art if and ONLY if it has:
> > Kicks, Punches, throws, and locks. They feel that Judo is "jipping"
> > people, because they are not teaching a complete system.
> >
>
> To state that one art is 'jipping' people because it doesn't include
> techniques in another art is narrow thinking.
>
Now, now. "White boy" we can defend because it's very difficult to label it
as a pejorative; it's more of a wry remark leaned against ethnic slurs but
not quite in that range. "Jipping" is really "gypping" and it refers to
what the Gypsies do to customers.... it's on a level with "jew someone down
in a bargain".
Mike
Ben Holmes
You might take your own advice.
What, as a percentage, of Judo is directly derived from Shuai Chiao, would you
say?
>As I said early on, most of the stuff I mentioned in re judo/shuai
>jiao is not really new or something knowledgeable people would tend to argue
>in Asia.
"in China", don't you mean?
Peter Claussen
<mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Peter Claussen" <dakot...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:140520030854068237%dakot...@mac.com...
>
>
> >
> > This description would include uki-otoshi and sumi-otoshi (even
> > tai-otoshi) as far throws.
> >
>
> You're clearly at the stage where you need to stop theorizing and
> rationalizing how judo is the papa of the family and simply start looking
> into it.
How do you read "papa of the family" into that? What's intended is to
see if I understand what is meant by far throws - that the description
as I read it would include uki-otoshi, et al.
> As I said early on, most of the stuff I mentioned in re judo/shuai
> jiao is not really new or something knowledgeable people would tend to argue
> in Asia.
>
>
> > > I can tell you why he thinks so.. In the chinese sense, a martial art
> > > is a martial art if and ONLY if it has:
> > > Kicks, Punches, throws, and locks. They feel that Judo is "jipping"
> > > people, because they are not teaching a complete system.
> > >
> >
> > To state that one art is 'jipping' people because it doesn't include
> > techniques in another art is narrow thinking.
> >
>
> Now, now. "White boy" we can defend because it's very difficult to label it
> as a pejorative; it's more of a wry remark leaned against ethnic slurs but
> not quite in that range. "Jipping" is really "gypping" and it refers to
> what the Gypsies do to customers.... it's on a level with "jew someone down
> in a bargain".
>
Where did "White boy" come from? To say that an art is short-changing
(i.e. "jipping") people because it doesn't include techniques that are
part of another arts philosophy is what I called narrow thinking, not
the use of the term "jipping".
Didn't you read the part about my opinion of the term "complete art"
preceding that statement? Or did you just not understand?
Peter Claussen
rita naylor
> <albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
>
> > Peter Claussen wrote:> In article
> > <b9n47g$l3eoa$1...@ID-172581.news.dfncis.de>, Albert Yang
> > > <albert...@achtung.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >>Left side was
> > >>one set, Right side the other. He has 6 directions he can take me, and
> > >>they might not be the same for the different parts.
> > >
> > >
> > > How might this compare with judo's happo-no-kuzushi (i.e. eight
> > > directions of off-balance)?
> >
> > Probably the same core concept. Anybody with a little bit of physics
> > will figure most of this out.
Can you tell me what Aikido-L is?
Peter Claussen
<eager...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can you tell me what Aikido-L is?
>
>
Aikido mailing list - see here:
Be warned - it's a pretty busy group, with about 100 messages per day,
a lot of off-topic stuff. I've gotten into some debates in the past,
but haven't taken the time to keep up lately - got about 4000 messages
in my inbox.
And there's been an annual Aikido-L seminar for the past 4-5 years
(which I may get too one of these years) - so a lot of folks on the
list know each other, lot more personal interaction.
Peter Claussen