What length should sai be?
Herman K. Lau
Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
Thanks!
Herman Lau
S L Peterson
The first pair of sai I got were a little short, about a half inch
above my elbow. I figured they'd be lighter, easier to handle, etc.
Then one day I left my sai at home on a weapons night, and borrowed a
friend's. They were longer-- just past my elbow-- and a bit heavier. I
was surprised to find they were actually easier to use (because of the
weight?). The difference was big enough I went out and got a larger
pair.
Susan
Robert L Campbell
Herman K. Lau (l...@ranma.stwing.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
: they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
: sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
: cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
Herman,
that is pretty much a comfort question. Having it longer than the forearm
(about and inch) does have some advantages in striking and blocking.
However, it also makes the sai harder to control (torque). The general
rule-of-thumb is that the sai be the length of your forearm. Another
problem that I have found with the longer sai is it getting caught on the
gi top. The elbow area of the gi is quite loose because of the joint,
thus the gi top hangs down a bit. You can, periodically get it caught
when you are doing a spin. However, you are more likely to get it cought
on the inside of gi (on the lapels). As you spin the tip past you abdomen
if it is too long it could get cuaght.
Of course, the negatives are that if it is shorter than the formarm, then
you leave your elbow exposed to a strike (of course, if you do the block
properly the exposed are will be minimal).
I prefer my sais to be about a half inch shorter than my forearm.
however, I am not an expert in sais, competent, but no expert.
Hope this helps
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"The reason most people do not hear opportunity knocking is because it
comes to the door dressed in overalls and looks like work"
- Unknown -
Michael L. Weishaar
Herman K. Lau wrote:
>
> Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
> they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
> sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
> cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
>
> Herman Lau
I heard from a yondan (Harry Dach, anyone else ever heard of him?) who
is supposedly a traditional weapons expert that the length of the sai
doesn't really matter. He said that the "1/2 inch past the elbow" thing
was made up to sell sais. According to him, you would never block a
strike with a sai in that manner, and the important thing was that the
sai was manuverable. After all, they were some type of farming
implement, so you used what you had. He was pretty impressive with
them, and the pair he used weren't even the same size! One was smaller
than the other. He stressed that the usability of the weapon was more
important than the size of it. Where have we heard THAT before? :-)
-Michael
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
raahsieW leahciM | Michael Weishaar
moc.tom.gic@raahsiew :liame | email: weis...@cig.mot.com
raahsiew~\moc.taczet.www\\:ptth | http://www.tezcat.com/~weishaar
The Man
Michael L. Weishaar wrote:
>
> Herman K. Lau wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
> > they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
> > sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
> > cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Herman Lau
>
> I heard from a yondan (Harry Dach, anyone else ever heard of him?) who
> is supposedly a traditional weapons expert that the length of the sai
> doesn't really matter. He said that the "1/2 inch past the elbow" thing
> was made up to sell sais. According to him, you would never block a
> strike with a sai in that manner, and the important thing was that the
> sai was manuverable. After all, they were some type of farming
> implement, so you used what you had. He was pretty impressive with
> them, and the pair he used weren't even the same size! One was smaller
> than the other. He stressed that the usability of the weapon was more
> important than the size of it. Where have we heard THAT before? :-)
>
> -Michael
So your friend throws out a whole host of blocks by not
believing in the 1/2" rule. The sai should extend past the
elbow.
pi...@izzy.net
Allowing the sai to protrude a bit past the elbow leaves the door open
to "elbow first" strikes, using the point of the sai in a thrust, while
the shank of the sai lies along the forearm. Anything shorter, and this
thrust can't be done unless the shank comes away from the arm, thus you
lose a bit of stability. I guess it all depends on the variety of
techniques you will learn/practice.
If the shank is shorter than the forearm, a bit of elbow becomes exposed
during certain blocks. Not good!
Devon Smith
pi...@izzy.net
http://www.izzy.net/~pilot/ma.html
In article <5fcs70$m...@netnews.upenn.edu>, l...@ranma.stwing.upenn.edu
says...
Michael L. Weishaar
The Man wrote:
>
> Michael L. Weishaar wrote:
> >
> > Herman K. Lau wrote:
> > >
> > > they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
> > > sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
> > > cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Herman Lau
> >
> > is supposedly a traditional weapons expert that the length of the sai
> > doesn't really matter. He said that the "1/2 inch past the elbow" thing
> > was made up to sell sais. According to him, you would never block a
> > strike with a sai in that manner, and the important thing was that the
> > sai was manuverable. After all, they were some type of farming
> > implement, so you used what you had. He was pretty impressive with
> > them, and the pair he used weren't even the same size! One was smaller
> > than the other. He stressed that the usability of the weapon was more
> > important than the size of it. Where have we heard THAT before? :-)
> >
> > -Michael
>
> So your friend throws out a whole host of blocks by not
> believing in the 1/2" rule. The sai should extend past the
> elbow.
Well, for one he is not really my friend, but someone who I learned from
at a seminar.
And yes, I suppose that is what his was saying. Probably because
practically, you wouldn't block a sword or other dangerous weapon and
just stand there. He stressed proper blocking, which meant moving out
of the way of the weapon as well as deflecting it. I don't think he
ever demonstrated a block where the sai was along the forearm. He did a
similar block, but the sai was held further away from the forearm. The
arm was at such an angle where if the attacking weapon slid down the sai
shaft, it wouldn't contact the arm. If I remember right, he said that
the only way the weapon could slide off the sai and hit your arm is if
you had very poor blocks.
Now I am no weapons expert, but I have played around with the sais a
little more since that seminar, and I agree with what he said. He
studied Kendo and other weapons in Japan, and knows the history of them
pretty well. I am just passing on what he said, and I tend to agree
with it. After watching him work the sais, I was convinced he knew what
he was talking about.
Timothy Schutte
Herman K. Lau (l...@ranma.stwing.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
: they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
: sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
: cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
Hi Herman,
I practice Isshinryu, and the Sai is part of our curriculum. The
blade of the sai should extend about one-half to one inch beyond your
elbow when held as you describe. Also, the distance between the tines and
the blade should be no wider than the ball of your thumb. If it is too
wide, you will certainly spend a lot of time picking them up off the
floor--and your foot!--while you learn to "flip" them. Many inexpensive
sai are too wide between the tines and the blade. In addition, the length
of the handle between the crossbar and the "knuckle" at the butt should be
long enough so that the tip of your index finger is against the "knuckle".
Have fun, but watch your toes! ;-)
Gambatte--
Tim
--
______________________________________________________________________________
t...@grfn.org | "A Person's Unbalance
ab...@detroit.freenet.org | is the Same as a Weight"
http://www.grfn.org/~tim | --4th Code of Isshinryu Karatedo
Robert Cunningham
<< > I heard from a yondan (Harry Dach, anyone else ever heard of him?)
who
> is supposedly a traditional weapons expert that the length of the sai
> doesn't really matter. He said that the "1/2 inch past the elbow"
thing
> was made up to sell sais. According to him, you would never block a
> strike with a sai in that manner, and the important thing was that the
> sai was manuverable. After all, they were some type of farming
> implement, so you used what you had. He was pretty impressive with
> them, and the pair he used weren't even the same size! One was
smaller
> than the other. He stressed that the usability of the weapon was more
> important than the size of it. Where have we heard THAT before? :-)
>
> -Michael
So your friend throws out a whole host of blocks by not
believing in the 1/2" rule. The sai should extend past the
elbow. >>
This is rather amusing actually... My instructor was just talking about
sais tonight and he explained why the sais should be EXACTLY 1/2" past
your elbow. The reason is so that when you elbow an opponent the sai
will penetrate their body WITHOUT getting stuck in their body. It does a
lot of damage when done in this fashion. If it is more than 1/2" it will
get stuck in your opponent (Not to mention that it will be almost
impossible to use as a sai... more like a small sword).
Robert Cunningham
"The Art of Kung Fu lies not in victory, or defeat, but in the building
of human character."
Robert L Campbell
Michael L. Weishaar (weis...@cig.mot.com) wrote:
: And yes, I suppose that is what his was saying. Probably because
: practically, you wouldn't block a sword or other dangerous weapon and
: just stand there. He stressed proper blocking, which meant moving out
: of the way of the weapon as well as deflecting it. I don't think he
: ever demonstrated a block where the sai was along the forearm. He did a
: similar block, but the sai was held further away from the forearm. The
: arm was at such an angle where if the attacking weapon slid down the sai
: shaft, it wouldn't contact the arm. If I remember right, he said that
: the only way the weapon could slide off the sai and hit your arm is if
: you had very poor blocks.
Now this is interesting. I have seen people who use short sais block in
this manner. Instead of the sai lying flat against the forearm it is at
an angle and sticks up about 2 inches. I can see how this would then
defelect the sword strike and not hit the forearm. However, the block
would have to be done perfectly, and you would need very strong wrists. I
had never thought about it before and actually considered it to be bad
form. I guess that I was wrong. For it sounds very plausible. I am going
to have to try it out.
Thanks Michael.
Michael L. Weishaar
Robert L Campbell wrote:
>
> Michael L. Weishaar (weis...@cig.mot.com) wrote:
>
> : And yes, I suppose that is what his was saying. Probably because
> : practically, you wouldn't block a sword or other dangerous weapon and
> : just stand there. He stressed proper blocking, which meant moving out
> : of the way of the weapon as well as deflecting it. I don't think he
> : ever demonstrated a block where the sai was along the forearm. He did a
> : similar block, but the sai was held further away from the forearm. The
> : arm was at such an angle where if the attacking weapon slid down the sai
> : shaft, it wouldn't contact the arm. If I remember right, he said that
> : the only way the weapon could slide off the sai and hit your arm is if
> : you had very poor blocks.
>
> Now this is interesting. I have seen people who use short sais block in
> this manner. Instead of the sai lying flat against the forearm it is at
> an angle and sticks up about 2 inches. I can see how this would then
> defelect the sword strike and not hit the forearm. However, the block
> would have to be done perfectly, and you would need very strong wrists. I
> had never thought about it before and actually considered it to be bad
> form. I guess that I was wrong. For it sounds very plausible. I am going
> to have to try it out.
>
Actually, the way he did it, it wasn't really a static block. The wrist
was held strong, but it also allowed some give in the sai to absorb some
of the blow. He would actually use the momentum of the blow to turn him
block into a strike. Of course, he had to move out of the way to get
into a striking position.
-Michael
> Thanks Michael.
>
> --
>
> **** Please note that to reply to this message change my
> address to rlca...@is2.dal.ca (note the 2 after is). This is a
> compatability problem with Tin and Unix, my ISP won't fix it until
> mid-march.
>
> Robert Campbell ^ ^
> # #
> ^ ### ### ^
> School of Public Administration # ### ### #
> Dalhousie University ### # # ###
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> Canada # #### #
> ########
> ###########
> ###########
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "The reason most people do not hear opportunity knocking is because it
> comes to the door dressed in overalls and looks like work"
>
> - Unknown -
--
Michael L. Weishaar
OK, now think about the history of the sai for a minute. These were
weapons used against soldiers wearing armor. 1/2" wouldn't be enough
length to penetrate the armor, and if it was then it wouldn't do any
damage at all. Also, they were usually used against armed trained,
armed opponents. Realistically, you wouldn't every get into a position
to use this type of strike. The sai offered a bit of distance, there is
no reason to go in close like that when you can strike from further out.
Why would you want to elbow someone when you have a sai in your hand
that you could use to strike them with?
-Michael
> Robert Cunningham
>
> "The Art of Kung Fu lies not in victory, or defeat, but in the building
> of human character."
--
Steve Burgess
> OK, now think about the history of the sai for a minute. These were
> weapons used against soldiers wearing armor. 1/2" wouldn't be enough
> length to penetrate the armor, and if it was then it wouldn't do any
> damage at all. Also, they were usually used against armed trained,
> armed opponents. Realistically, you wouldn't every get into a position
> to use this type of strike. The sai offered a bit of distance, there is
> no reason to go in close like that when you can strike from further out.
> Why would you want to elbow someone when you have a sai in your hand
> that you could use to strike them with?
>
> -Michael
Hi Micheal
Excuse me for disagreeing. My understanding of the history of the sai
is that it is a peace officer's weapon, in essence a hilted club. It
would not have been used on a battlefield and probably wouldn't be
pitted against armor.
I agree with the 1/2" "more or less" rule. Shorter leaves the elbow
exposed and longer tends to catch in clothing or upper arms and limits
movement.
Steve
Wayne Eddy
Steve Burgess (bur...@nxi.com) wrote:
: > OK, now think about the history of the sai for a minute. These were
: > weapons used against soldiers wearing armor. 1/2" wouldn't be enough
: > length to penetrate the armor, and if it was then it wouldn't do any
: > damage at all. Also, they were usually used against armed trained,
: > armed opponents. Realistically, you wouldn't every get into a position
: > to use this type of strike. The sai offered a bit of distance, there is
: > no reason to go in close like that when you can strike from further out.
: > Why would you want to elbow someone when you have a sai in your hand
: > that you could use to strike them with?
: >
: > -Michael
Cn we be sure that these thoughts were going through the mind of the first
farmer that took up his hay bailer in arms against an aggressor?
The sai was used as a weapon against swordsman/spearsman and with the
proposition that one would deflect and momentarily trap the opponents
weapon and enable one to strike or stab at one opponent.
Seldom would armed agressors don armour to oppress villagers/farmers/peasants.
:
: Hi Micheal
:
: Excuse me for disagreeing. My understanding of the history of the sai
: is that it is a peace officer's weapon, in essence a hilted club. It
: would not have been used on a battlefield and probably wouldn't be
: pitted against armor.
: I agree with the 1/2" "more or less" rule. Shorter leaves the elbow
: exposed and longer tends to catch in clothing or upper arms and limits
: movement.
:
The Japanese police used a Jitte, this looked very similar the untrained eye,
the jitte has one less outward prong.
useful in the farmers duties, presumably the farmer would adk for that "so so"
long, not necessarily the length elbow to wrist.
on length, preference of shape and other aspects such as blades etc. However
one must be able to use any sai equally.
: Steve
--
Wayne Eddy.
Don McPherson
Herman K. Lau (l...@ranma.stwing.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
: they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
: sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
: cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
"It's not the Sai's, it's how you wield it!" :)
Hi... I've been using the Sai's for years... Typically you are supposed
to use a Sai of which the length covers the forarm.. However it's a
matter of personall preference. I found the 12" length to be more
comfortable for me to use becuase I find thier "center of balance" better
than the longer ones. But try different lengths and see what feels
comfortable and balanced for your personal use.
Good luck.
--- Don ---
Robert Cunningham
<sai> Are you trying to tell us Don, that you don't wish your's was a
1/2" longer??? :-)
Robert Cunningham
"The Art of Pun Fu lies not in victory, or de-heat, but in the size of
human character."
M Klaes
>Herman K. Lau (l...@ranma.stwing.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: Hi, I was thinking of buying a pair of sai and I was wondering how long
>: they should be? Should the tip extend past my elbow when I hold the the
>: sai upside down with the joint between the wing and the main blade
>: cradled in the joint between my thumb and first finger?
If you do a high block (age-uke) the Sai should still protect your
elbow/adjoining part of upper arm, which in effect means that it should
extend about 1-2 inches beyond the elbow if the arm is held straight.
Comparing the balance of different Sai is good advice, they can differ a
lot even if they have the same length.
Matthias