Uncle Bill on KunTao Silat Thouars
Chas
In response to the requests for the philosophy and intent of KunTao
Silat Thouars, here is a public posting from the Founder; Willem 'Uncle
Bill' de Thouars
Greetings and Peace to my Friends and Students all over the world!
It was my good fortune in life to learn martial arts the OLD WAY in
Indonesia prior to the Japanese invasion of WWII. The Family de Thouars
practiced a Family System comprised of several styles of Silat which I
have practiced virtually all of my life, even during confinement in
Japanese and Indonesian prison camps.
It was also my great good fortune to be accepted and educated by the
Chinese KunTao community. I have spent many years in formal training in
Indonesia and have continued training and study in the Chinese martial
arts in Asia, Europe and the United States. Even now I am learning, and
studying to completion, another Chinese system of Preying Mantis.
It is my continuing studies in many martial arts systems from many
ethnic origins that have made me a very open minded practitioner. I also
tend to attract student practitioners who also have broad horizons and
humble attitudes.
The de Thouars Family has a sound and proud martial arts heritage of
three hundred (300) years.
My brothers and Uncles have trained me in the Family system for all my
life and I have shared that art with open-minded practitioners all over
the world. Even today I still maintain a daily routine of practice at 3
AM and spend at least 5-7 hours a day of practice in both KunTao and
Silat. I spend a further 21-25 hours per month of other personal
practice, not counting my many hours of teaching.
After 55 years of practice as a way of life, I have only just begin to
understand my teachers' teaching and also the warrior within me.
How is it possible for people who have only seen my face a dozen times
to become the "sole inheritor" of my system?
It is not my intention to speak poorly of my ex-students. I feel it is
necessary to make my position very clear in order to protect my Family
name and Art. It is with deep regret that I need to distance myself from
some individuals who have studied from me only for a couple of years. I
have gone to them for only a dozen sessions or so. Yet they go forward
to claim knowledge that they don't have at all. It is not that these
people are poor practitioners - they simply do not have the knowledge of
my personal arts that they claim. No one except me can make those
claims!
I address this situation in order to protect my Family Name and my
system from embarrassment by these people. I hope sincerely that my late
teachers don't turn in their graves in agony from being abused by those
students whose names I prefer not to mention. In fact, those students
claim to be Lineage Holders of my system, and are also advertising to be
Masters, GrandMasters, and even to have an equal rank as myself for
their Seminars. They are also using my personal and family name, and the
names of my system as credential for their Videotapes.
People should be aware of what they are buying. These are not my
representatives.
My Senior Disciples work hard, train constantly, and do not embarrass me
in public by issuing incessant challenges to "step out on the floor" or
claiming to be the sole inheritor of my system.
Rank is internal among the Family. External ranking is for the benefit
of the student in each individual school. Rank has become an issue in my
system only since these "new" students have made it an issue. In the
real martial arts there are only practitioners and students. It is most
important to train hard and practice constantly. Rank is of no value in
itself. Simply practice harder - don’t worry about rank. We pay our dues
in training because we love the art, not for a silly piece of wallpaper.
Those close to me remember when I was younger and crazier. I come from a
Family heritage of fighters and warriors for many centuries. I have
almost been deported from the United States many times in my earlier
years for fighting. Now I realize that fighting is for Kindergarten; it
is not the responsible act of mature people and certainly not a trait
that is tolerated within my association.
I have never claimed to be a master of anything. Even though I have
received high certification from several world renowned GrandMasters, I
maintain that God is truly the only Master
When I was directly approached by these students to provide them with
"certification," I meant only to convey honor, not "rank". There is no
honor in these false claims.
Few people understand that it is my way, and the way of my Teachers, to
test a student for a minimum of three years. I look for maturity,
responsibility and desire in a student. Egocentric behavior like
challenging and fist-fighting is grounds for immediate dismissal.
This is America; no matter how good a martial artist is, he must
remember what Sam Colt said a hundred years ago. . . "God made men - the
Colt revolver made men equal."`
My Colorado group has enjoyed a time of no-politics for many years. I
long for those days again. It is my intent to convert all this political
turmoil caused by newcomers into a POSITIVE factor that will assist in
the growth of my Teacher’s Arts.
I have several groups around the country that are training hard,
quietly! It is for the open minded and sincere practitioner that I give
my heart and my Art. For that reason people have to be unified to serve
the art, rather than the art to serve them. It is my desire to create a
bigger group of open-minded individuals who desire to share my
experience and the knowledge of my Teachers
God Bless America, Holland, Indonesia and China. We must strive to live
together in peace and harmony. We must forget petty jealousies and
puffed up egos. No one can OWN the martial arts -
No one is the greatest - only God claims that honor.
Truly Yours,
Willem deThouars,
Founder KunLun Pai Ratu Duri Silat KunTao Silat (deThouars)
Through Chas Clements, Elder Teacher, Pukulan Silat Kilap Betawi
Thouars
Randall Goodwin
Chas --
You who talk of Hormat and Adat, have none! You do not represent Uncle and
he resents your constant and continual intrusion into his life through your
pedantic posturing posts using his name. You publish material that is not
intended for the public, that you recieved through Steve and not on your own
merit. The document itself tells that it is not intended for the public:
"This document is only written for the serious and dedicated martial arts
practitioners who are presently studying or already have accomplished in the
studies of the main objectives in Kun Lun Pai."
Much of what you do post includes words half-hazardly combined from
different arts to give it the appearance of authenticity and authority
(hence the pedantic) but in reality only causes you to look a fool and
embarasses the rest of us.
I have made every effort to avoid a flame war with you by ignoring posts
that were personally insulting to me. But when you make public claims to be
doing something on Uncle's behalf or with his approval and authorization you
go too far. It is not true.
I understand that you have had no contact with Uncle for "months" and that
the last contacts were all asking you to cease and desist in your false
representations and in the use of his family name.
You have reposted material (on ranking) that was posted in response to a
specific situation (Roberto and Art) that is better left to lie in the past
and is not directly relevant to any current matter. Not only that, but I was
the original poster of that material, yet you make it seem as though it came
from you with Uncle's authorization.
You are a liar.
In the matter of official material on the Internet (for Uncle directly, not
subsidiary or derived Arts), I remain the only authorized source, barring
seminar announcements, which I have left open to those who sponsor them.
You have never been at the 3:00 am classes, you have never been an active
physical practitioner of his Arts. The tapes you pedal were produced by
Steve Gartin, an actual practitioner, with the help of Uncle's seniors (and
are legitimate). While I am present as an instructor and my senior student
Chuck Stahman is also present as an instructor in the tapes, you are not.
You are the disembodied voice for the introduction. We would all (Uncle's
real seniors) prefer you to remain disembodied.
When I posted a previous time asking you to cease and desist, you attack me
personally and ask people to call Uncle, saying his number is in the book.
It isn't, it is unlisted.
Perhaps you thought that with the power out in much of Montreal you could
sneak this one past me. Perhaps you thought that because I don't waste my
time posting ad nauseum like you do (I work for a living) that I wouldn't
respond to a direct misrepresentation. I don't post responses to you
normally because you are not worth the effort, generally. When you mention
Keith's school, I approve and ignore. But when you post private material and
repost material that is far better left in the past as though it were with
current approval from Uncle, you go too far.
So quit your bullshit.
-- On behalf of myself,
Guru Tua Randall Goodwin
Kun Lun Pai, Kuntao Silat de Thouars
randall...@geocities.com
http://www.geocites.com/hotsprings/3659
Chas
Randall Goodwin wrote:
> Chas --
> You who talk of Hormat and Adat, have none! You do not represent Uncle and
> he resents your constant and continual intrusion into his life through your
> pedantic posturing posts using his name. You publish material that is not
> intended for the public, that you recieved through Steve and not on your own
> merit. The document itself tells that it is not intended for the public:
> "This document is only written for the serious and dedicated martial arts
> practitioners who are presently studying or already have accomplished in the
> studies of the main objectives in Kun Lun Pai."
The document, given to me by Uncle from his own hand, has been published
a number of times in public and is Uncles' official record by his hand.
I cleaned it up at his direction and have not removed or added
anything. He has made it more complete lately and that is in present
preparation through our attention.
> Much of what you do post includes words half-hazardly combined from
> different arts to give it the appearance of authenticity and authority
> (hence the pedantic) but in reality only causes you to look a fool and
> embarasses the rest of us.
Well, jump on in dude. Always interested in better definitions and more
complete information. The information I have comes from a number of
different sources within the Family and its' friends; help me update it
if it needs it. Try to quell your political and financial interests.
> I have made every effort to avoid a flame war with you by ignoring posts
> that were personally insulting to me. But when you make public claims to be
> doing something on Uncle's behalf or with his approval and authorization you
> go too far. It is not true.
I don't know what you found insulting- I can think of some things but
I've not posted them. I don't do things 'on Uncles' behalf'; don't
claim to, haven't.
> I understand that you have had no contact with Uncle for "months" and that
> the last contacts were all asking you to cease and desist in your false
> representations and in the use of his family name.
Well, that's wrong twice.
> You have reposted material (on ranking) that was posted in response to a
> specific situation (Roberto and Art) that is better left to lie in the past
> and is not directly relevant to any current matter. Not only that, but I was
> the original poster of that material, yet you make it seem as though it came
> from you with Uncle's authorization.
Roberto and Art were not mentioned- why did you bring it up? The post
has relevance now and was presented as such; what part did you disagree
with?
> You are a liar.
And you're an instigating troublemaker with little sense of integrity.
> In the matter of official material on the Internet (for Uncle directly, not
> subsidiary or derived Arts), I remain the only authorized source, barring
> seminar announcements, which I have left open to those who sponsor them.
And you're doing very well at it; please further define what it is
you're in charge of- I'll continue to present as the salon des refuses.
> You have never been at the 3:00 am classes, you have never been an active
> physical practitioner of his Arts. The tapes you pedal were produced by
> Steve Gartin, an actual practitioner, with the help of Uncle's seniors (and
> are legitimate). While I am present as an instructor and my senior student
> Chuck Stahman is also present as an instructor in the tapes, you are not.
> You are the disembodied voice for the introduction. We would all (Uncle's
> real seniors) prefer you to remain disembodied.
I have never represented anything else. People know that I am not a
teacher of KunLun Pai- never claimed to be. Uncle Bill has been my
teacher, Uncle Victor has been my teacher, Uncle Paul has been my
teacher; for somewhat over twenty years. I don't have *all* of all of
their arts and have never claimed otherwise (who does?). Any hope of
being of the art lineage has been denied me because of my physical
limitations; oh, well. That's why they gave me 'Kilap Betawi' and
'pukulan'- Elder Teacher, Entrusted Teacher, Cigar Dalem, Senior status
and the rest of it. It comes, it goes. Politics is just martial arts for
groups.
The 'real seniors'(tm) had all of the time in the world to help us
complete the tapes- they couldn't agree about anything with one another
or anyone else; still.
They *still* have the opportunity- step on up.
> When I posted a previous time asking you to cease and desist, you attack me
> personally and ask people to call Uncle, saying his number is in the book.
> It isn't, it is unlisted.
I've had it so long I didn't know that it was unlisted. Assuming that
they had any interest, anyone who needed it could get it. If I had not
been confident of what the voice would say on the other end of the
phone, I wouldn't have suggested it- it was at the direction of the
household- they weren't happy with you and your troublemaking.
> Perhaps you thought that with the power out in much of Montreal you could
> sneak this one past me.
Yeah, I've been waiting for a storm like this.
>Perhaps you thought that because I don't waste my
> time posting ad nauseum like you do (I work for a living) that I wouldn't
> respond to a direct misrepresentation.
Yeah, I thought you were eating bon-bons and watching soaps and
forgetting your responsibilities. With a wife and two kids I have
nothing better to do than to wonder when Randall is on or off the box.
>I don't post responses to you
> normally because you are not worth the effort, generally.
Effort on your behalf or on Uncles' or your business associates? What is
your area of disagreement? Does it have to do with my personal practice
or my translation of foreign languages; do I misrepresent the
information I have from the de Thouars family- what *is* your problem?
I make no apologies for my past life or my present practices- I am what
I am; since I like it, I think I'll continue to act as I have done. You
can teach cops and stuff, I don't care to.
Which of the Brothers is speaking to you- today-?
>When you mention
> Keith's school, I approve and ignore.
Where else would I send them to study KunLun Pai or initiate contact
with Uncle? I do appreciate your approbation and ignorance.
I am the longest public teacher in this group, not the best. I sure
have prepared a lot of people for you guys and sent them to you without
hesitation- many of your best senior practitioners are my former
students. Where were they ill-prepared? My wounds don't prevent me from
demonstrating and correcting performance, only from stepping forward
publicly as a model of the lineage.
>But when you post private material and
> repost material that is far better left in the past as though it were with
> current approval from Uncle, you go too far.
So far, you're batting 'wrong for wrong'. Post when you care to do,
disagree as you care to do- you have always had my unqualified
admiration in your practice, skills and scholarly information. It's
just that you have such a small, mean-spirited self-interest. Your
politics determine your position and your ethics are situational.
I continue in my gratitude to you for your instruction to me and your
introduction, to me, of the skills I value highly and the association I
enjoy with the de Thouars Family. You are a practitioner of
unquestioned skill and a teacher of surpassing quality (well, except for
that one little foible we all try to ignore).
> So quit your bullshit.
boy I know that remark chafes you in the dead of night
> -- On behalf of myself,
> Guru Tua Randall Goodwin
> Kun Lun Pai, Kuntao Silat de Thouars
> randall...@geocities.com
> http://www.geocites.com/hotsprings/3659
Hope things get better in Montreal.
Chas Clements
Guru Tiga and stuff
Pukulan Pentjak KunTao Silat Kilap Betawi Thouars
Malabar KunTao Silat Thouars
Pukulan Tongkat Thouars
Steve Gartin
Randall Goodwin wrote:
>
> Chas --
>
> You who talk of Hormat and Adat, have none! You do not represent Uncle
Randall, come on and try to contain yourself.
You know in your heart that Chas has nothing but love and respect
for the entire de Thouars Family. Yeah, you and I have a unique
position in that world, but that does not mean that all the others
do not belong!
Please cease your incessant harassment of Chas - think for a moment
of all he has done for you personally. Now consider all that he has
done to promote our art.
I have told you before, if you don't agree with some terminology -
bring it to Chas - not to the whole stinkin world.
http://members.xoom.com/ThunderRock/thunderrock.html
This is the last letter Uncle asked me to post; it's on his
web page. I'm fairly confident that Chas got it there.
Please guyz, bury the hatchet somewhere besides in each other!
> So quit your bullshit.
Matthew Noell
In article <69o8np$1ed$1...@greedo.microtec.net>, "Randall Goodwin"
<rgoo...@neosim.com> wrote:
Ummmm..... why the heck is this here? If you have something personal
to resolve with Chas then maybe e-mail would be more appropriate. Unlike
you, he does not engage in naming names and making obvious personal
attacks in every post.
The post that Chas made reflects well upon "Uncle" whether it is
accurate or not. Your behaviour (Randall Goodwin) is probably
embarrassing to everyone associated with you. I don't know either of you,
but Chas comes across as a weapons freak with plenty of tolerance for
others. You (RG) come across as awfully petty and mean. I hope that I am
wrong about you Randall Goodwin. You appear to be a high ranking student
and so I would hope that you are really a good guy whose intentions are
distorted by the medium of communication (webpostings).
Perhaps somebody can drag a laptop to a workout with somebody whose
last name is de Thoaurs, and he can set the record straight!!!! It would
be appreciated by those of us who try to follow the rest of the silat
community here in the US. Frankly I can't tell if the de Thoaurs family
has trained a bunch of jerks or saints!!! The post that Chas just made
seemed authentic and was, in my opinion, one of the best pieces I've ever
seen attributed to anyone in your family. I fervently hope that it is
authentic. It would mean that the tremendous respect I have for the de
Thoaurs family is appropriate. BUT I have cought a lot of crap from Todd
Ellner in the past, and frankly Randall Goodwin's behaviour has been
disappointing too. This reflects poorly on the de Thoaurs name. Chas at
least takes an inclusive, and often humble, approach to interacting with
the rest of us. I can only hope that it is the way you mean to be too.
Respectfully,
Matthew
P.S. Make no mistake, I do not mean any disrespect to the teachers in the
de Thoaurs family. I am simply trying to communicate my strong
disappointment in the REPRESENTATION of the de Thoaurs family by their
students here.
> Chas --
>
> You who talk of Hormat and Adat, have none! You do not represent Uncle and
> he resents your constant and continual intrusion into his life through your
> pedantic posturing posts using his name. You publish material that is not
> intended for the public, that you recieved through Steve and not on your own
> merit. The document itself tells that it is not intended for the public:
>
> "This document is only written for the serious and dedicated martial arts
> practitioners who are presently studying or already have accomplished in the
> studies of the main objectives in Kun Lun Pai."
>
> Much of what you do post includes words half-hazardly combined from
> different arts to give it the appearance of authenticity and authority
> (hence the pedantic) but in reality only causes you to look a fool and
> embarasses the rest of us.
>
> I have made every effort to avoid a flame war with you by ignoring posts
> that were personally insulting to me. But when you make public claims to be
> doing something on Uncle's behalf or with his approval and authorization you
> go too far. It is not true.
> I understand that you have had no contact with Uncle for "months" and that
> the last contacts were all asking you to cease and desist in your false
> representations and in the use of his family name.
>
> You have reposted material (on ranking) that was posted in response to a
> specific situation (Roberto and Art) that is better left to lie in the past
> and is not directly relevant to any current matter. Not only that, but I was
> the original poster of that material, yet you make it seem as though it came
> from you with Uncle's authorization.
>
> You are a liar.
>
> In the matter of official material on the Internet (for Uncle directly, not
> subsidiary or derived Arts), I remain the only authorized source, barring
> seminar announcements, which I have left open to those who sponsor them.
>
> You have never been at the 3:00 am classes, you have never been an active
> physical practitioner of his Arts. The tapes you pedal were produced by
> Steve Gartin, an actual practitioner, with the help of Uncle's seniors (and
> are legitimate). While I am present as an instructor and my senior student
> Chuck Stahman is also present as an instructor in the tapes, you are not.
> You are the disembodied voice for the introduction. We would all (Uncle's
> real seniors) prefer you to remain disembodied.
>
> When I posted a previous time asking you to cease and desist, you attack me
> personally and ask people to call Uncle, saying his number is in the book.
> It isn't, it is unlisted.
>
> Perhaps you thought that with the power out in much of Montreal you could
> sneak this one past me. Perhaps you thought that because I don't waste my
> time posting ad nauseum like you do (I work for a living) that I wouldn't
> respond to a direct misrepresentation. I don't post responses to you
> normally because you are not worth the effort, generally. When you mention
> Keith's school, I approve and ignore. But when you post private material and
> repost material that is far better left in the past as though it were with
> current approval from Uncle, you go too far.
Peter Sampogna
> You have reposted material (on ranking) that was posted in response to a
> specific situation (Roberto and Art) that is better left to lie in the past
Who are these guys ? what did they do? Email me about this
Pete Sampogna
>
>
GLobo43787
uh guys
arent you batting for the same team?
i think your disagreement is better left to email. i have recollections of a
similar exchange some time back along the same lines.
i also am disappointed at the representation of the De Thouars line in such a
manner. it does little to elevate the standing of a respected art if its
practitioners command little respect. take it to email. better still take it to
a bar buy each other a drink, kiss and make up.
chas gives out some good stuff- dont always agree. who cares. life would be
boring if everyone had my opinion ( not to mention BIZZARRE).
its like you want to be teachers pet. be yourself. if this is yourself,
randall Goodwin, go away. be nice then we can all play.
Take 2 valium and come back tomorrow.
Glenn
martial arts
Philip Gelinas
GLobo43787 wrote:
>
> uh guys
> arent you batting for the same team?
evidently not.
Randal teaches at my place and "uncle" Bill has conducted seminars for
Randall here for the last little while.
All that being said, Randall's difficulty with Mr Clements is his
position (or lack there of) in their family. Randall is in their "inner"
circle. He has done all that wake up early to train stuff. He has spent
over twenty years with Guru Besar Willem de Thouars. He feels that he
can say the things he does when he feels others are misrepresenting
themselves about this art that he feels so strongly about.
This is only by way of explanation, not an attack,
PG
Chas
Randall is not telling you all.
Perhaps *you* should talk to Uncle about this situation- or perhaps Ebu
Joyce or Victoria. Randall is careening out of control- not an unusual
situation.
I, too, have been with the de Thouars Family for twenty years- most of
which time Randall has been in Canada after leaving the States under a
cloud. I, too, have been graced with the Cigar Dalem appellation and
publicly given status as a Senior. This kindness and generosity has
been extended me in spite of my eccentricities, my physicality and my
public demeanor. I do not believe that this trust has been abrogated by
me at any time.
There is no doubt that I have had difficulties with the Brothers, and
over a period of time. We seem to be able to work them out (as we have
done now)- Uncle was pissed that I hadn't been coming to class since the
birth of my new son.
Now there is no doubt in my mind that Randall is a better martial artist
than I- better physicality, more disciplined and much more tractable
than I. I have allowed him to live in my house, his brothers to live at
my house, provided him a place to teach and generally tried to explain
to students why he is the way he is- no regrets from here.
I hope that your trust in Randall is not misplaced. He may treat you
differently than he has other friends in the past- wouldn't that be a
nice change?
Chas
Philip Gelinas
Chas wrote:
>
> Philip Gelinas wrote:
> >
> > GLobo43787 wrote:
> > >
> > > uh guys
> > > arent you batting for the same team?
> >
> > evidently not.
> >
> > PG
> Mr. Gelinas:
> Randall is not telling you all.
> Perhaps *you* should talk to Uncle about this situation- or perhaps Ebu
> Joyce or Victoria. Randall is careening out of control-
Chas,
One of the peculiarities of having Willem de Thouars as a guest at my
school is the possibility of talking to him, so the comments made by me
are not based on Randall's singular (and according to you mistaken)
point of view.
All that aside, I was making reference to the fact that as a senior in
his group, Randall was free to make his observations (however wrong they
may be in your eyes) and post them as a counterpoint to positions you
have posted that might be in contrast to his position.
Bla Bla Bla,
PG
Geraldo
Hello Phillip,
The rewards of training in Uncle Bill's system far outweigh any bickering
that occassionally
breaks out. Please try to disregard the bullshit and concentrate on the
training opportunity
presented by the KunTao Silat guyz.
I live about 2 miles from Uncle Bill and I see him and talk with him on a
regular basis. He
acknowledges BOTH Chas and Randall as master-level practitioners; and is
quite pleased
with both of them in terms of martial performance.
Randall has some small personality quirks that prevent him from listening at
times. As just
about everyone knows know, Uncle Bill has his own home page and does not rely
on anyone
to be his 'internet representative' as Randall claims. That claim is untrue.
Further, Uncle is preparing his new page - honoring all of his disciples and
students -
which will dispel some of the mystery surrounding our internal politics,
which is our
business and unrelated to the outside world.
Uncle, Joyce and Vickie de Thouars have all asked Randall NOT to pick fights
on the
internet with our own people. That is NOT the de Thouars way!
Please understand that Uncle speaks for himself quite effectively and does
not need anyone
to do anything except to give grace and honor to the art he has so freely
given to the world.
Chas, in my knowlege, has never done anything except to continually promote
and
acknowledge the de Thouars Brothers. If he has spelled a word wrong, Randall
should
take the question to him privately - not this way. This is another
embarassing debacle
that Uncle Bill is not at all happy about - but he loves both the players,
and they both
hold a dear place within the Family. Imagine how a Dad feels when his Kidz
jest won't
quite fighting. . . but it IS all about fighting, isn't it.
Don't take the petty bickering too seriously. When you get to know Chas, you
will
discover that he, too, is one hell of a martial artist - and one you,
personally, could learn
a lot from.
Randall is one of the finest martial artists I have ever beheld! He and I
have
had the honor to live and train with younger Brother Victor. . . what an
experience!
Never let Randall's personality quirks prevent you from studying with him -
the
learning experience will be worth the small inconvenience.
In conclusion: There are VERY few KunTao Silat players available for
instruction,
seminars and etc. There will always be conflict among them; it is the nature
of the art.
Don't be misled by the verbage - ALL these guyz can fight.
If my opinion is relevant, Randall should not interfere with Chas in his
promotion of the
art. We have far too few "voices" in this world - let's not extinguish any
of them.
God Bless you all. Let there be Peace. Declare Peace!
Philip Gelinas wrote:
--
[ Steve Gartin Voice Msg: 303-364-0403 ]
[ Fax/BBS: 303-739-9824 ]
[ Reply: "mailto: gar...@usa.net" ]
[ Web: "http://members.xoom.com/ThunderRock/index.html" ]
Chas
Philip Gelinas wrote:
> Chas,
> One of the peculiarities of having Willem de Thouars as a guest at my
> school is the possibility of talking to him, so the comments made by me
> are not based on Randall's singular (and according to you mistaken)
> point of view.
That was then, this is now. You should keep up with the 'awfully sudden
changes' because the hits just keep on coming. Uncle was being fed some
bad information and I didn't help things from being hard-headed; that
was then- this is now.
You would do well to remember that; 'Politics' is martial arts for
groups.
> All that aside, I was making reference to the fact that as a senior in
> his group, Randall was free to make his observations (however wrong they
> may be in your eyes) and post them as a counterpoint to positions you
> have posted that might be in contrast to his position.
No argument there. Randall is, in fact, my senior in the art; by time,
by excellence in performance and by direct ranking. He is welcome and
free to post what he cares to do and to read what I post in reply.
I cannot think of anything that I care to retract or to modify. I have
never posted anything negative to the de Thouars Brothers, never assumed
rank or purported to teach something that I do not, never stepped
forward without the direct, specific and personal permission of Willem
de Thouars, never did *anything* that bring shame on my teachers
('shame' being different than 'embarrassment').
Lastly; I have been here, in Denver; subject to the hand of my teachers,
for twenty years. I have stepped forward when I have had a
responsibility and taken my lumps. I have stood by the door and
accosted any son-of-a-bitch that stepped up since 1981. I am proud of
my position with the Family and my discharge of my responsibilities.
> Bla Bla Bla,
Yes, a cogent point.
> PG
Chas
Steve Gartin
KunTao Silat de Thouars is the unique combination of ancient Chinese Shaolin and
the Taoist Arts as practiced in Indonesia - combined- with Silat. This is just a
short
explaination, but you can take a trip to the Web site for more info.
Bottom line: this is a VERY sophisticated art - designed more for combat than
health.
Randall Goodwin and Chas Clements are Senior Practitioners (Gurus) of the Arts
under the de Thouars Brothers. We are preparing a visual presentation for Uncle
Bill's
Web Page of all the students, disciples and members of the KunTao Silat de
Thouars Family. . .
should be done in about a week.
Appreciate your interest Peter.
Peter Sampogna wrote:
--
Todd D. Ellner
Dear Chas, Randall, Phillip, et alia:
Please keep the private disagreements private. Airing them in front of
tens of thousands of people does nobody in the family any good.
Regards,
Todd
--
Todd Ellner | Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)557-1572 |
Chas
intrude your pious, faux peacemaking crap to me. Your condescendsion is
unwelcome and inappropriate. You have never stepped forward for me, for
Brandt, you have fomented trouble and weaseled around from one stepping
stone to another. Keep the fuck out of my business if you don't have
enough gratitude to stick up for me.
Chas Clements
Guru Tiga
Pukulan Kuntao Silat Kilap Betawi Thouars
Steve Gartin
Just spoke with Uncle Bill. He asked that I place his Mailing Location on
the net so that anyone who wanted to communicate directly with him, could.
Willem de Thouars - PO Box 330113 - KunTao Silat de Thouars - Northglenn
Colorado 80233
I've posted his web page url, but if you can't find it, follow the link
below.
Thanks all.
Chas wrote:
--
Ingo Bojak
On 26 Jan 1998, Todd D. Ellner wrote:
> Please keep the private disagreements private. Airing them in front of
> tens of thousands of people does nobody in the family any good.
>
I must admit that I have been following this thread with some fascination.
I don't feel as bad about all the family fighting in Wing Chun anymore, it
seems that it is a common occurence wherever there is (a) a family
structure to the MA and (b) fighting prowress is stressed.
Just another note - I have never heard as much about KunTao Silat as when
reading this internal fight thread. Maybe this is the best form of
advertisement after all. It doesn't matter what is said, as long as the
name keeps sticking...
Ciao,
Ingo
---
8th SG WingTsun, 2nd SG Latosa Escrima, Hatha Yoga (GGF)
# The intellect is like money - a good servant, but a bad master.
# (B.K.S. Iyengar)
Chas
Philip Gelinas wrote:
chas wrote
> > Mr. Gelinas:
> > Randall is not telling you all.
> > Perhaps *you* should talk to Uncle about this situation- or perhaps Ebu
> > Joyce or Victoria. Randall is careening out of control-
>
> One of the peculiarities of having Willem de Thouars as a guest at my
> school is the possibility of talking to him, so the comments made by me
> are not based on Randall's singular (and according to you mistaken)
> point of view.
>
> his group, Randall was free to make his observations (however wrong they
> may be in your eyes) and post them as a counterpoint to positions you
> have posted that might be in contrast to his position.
>
>
> PG
Hello,
I received this message via forward and I'd like to interject
a comment or two. First, any conflict between Randall
Goodwin and anyone else is no matter of concern. This
has been Randall's logo in all the years I have known him.
This is not to say that Randall is anything except socially
inept. He means no offense - he is simply unskilled in social
graces. In his heart Randall is as fine a man as you will ever
know - it it his abrasive exterior that attracts negative responses
from People. That's why he can fight so well.
So, taking all into account - It IS martial arts, not folkdancing,
as Chas is quick to point out. It seems inappriopriate to place
any great concern to anything short of a fistfight.
Both Chas and Randall are part of the Family de Thouars!
Only Wayne Welsh has been with the Family longer than I
have. I know who has been there all along and what they
have been doing.
Neither Chas nor Randall needs to take a back seat to
anyone in the Martial Arts. Both are incredibly skilled!
Anyone who wants to talk strait to the de Thouars Family can call them
and
get undiluted truth. You can also go to Uncle Bill's WebPage. We're
working on
the Family Roster now and should have it up before the end of the
month. The link
below will take you to Uncle's Page; he will be updating it regularly.
No need to listen
to anyone's side of the story if all you are interested in is Uncle's
opinion. He will make
that instantly available to anyone ONLINE who cares. If you have
specific questions,
please Email me and I'll pass it along to Uncle Bill.
This note is from Steve Gartin, Guru Tua Kun Lun Pai, Senior
Practitioner
of KunTao Silat de Thouars and Founder of Malabar KunTao Silat de
Thouars,
for whatever that may be worth.
God Bless both you Gentlemen, it is an Honor to be your Brother.
Let there be Peace, in the precious Name of our Lord, Jesus!
Philip Gelinas
Todd D. Ellner wrote:
>
> Dear Chas, Randall, Phillip, et alia:
>
> tens of thousands of people does nobody in the family any good.
Without going into it, I was not defending Randall, just his right to
post what ever he feels is correct. This is not family stuff just
internet-equity announcements
I would defend Randall if I felt he was being unfairly treated but this
was not the case.
PG
Steve Gartin
Well spoken Chas! So now, I suppose it is proper to put this thread to Rest
In Peace.
Uncle's Page will be updated Thursday if anyone wants to check it out.
Chas wrote:
> Philip Gelinas wrote:
> > Chas,
> > One of the peculiarities of having Willem de Thouars as a guest at my
> > school is the possibility of talking to him, so the comments made by me
> > are not based on Randall's singular (and according to you mistaken)
> > point of view.
>
> That was then, this is now. You should keep up with the 'awfully sudden
> changes' because the hits just keep on coming. Uncle was being fed some
> bad information and I didn't help things from being hard-headed; that
> was then- this is now.
> You would do well to remember that; 'Politics' is martial arts for
> groups.
>
> > All that aside, I was making reference to the fact that as a senior in
> > his group, Randall was free to make his observations (however wrong they
> > may be in your eyes) and post them as a counterpoint to positions you
> > have posted that might be in contrast to his position.
>
> No argument there. Randall is, in fact, my senior in the art; by time,
> by excellence in performance and by direct ranking. He is welcome and
> free to post what he cares to do and to read what I post in reply.
> I cannot think of anything that I care to retract or to modify. I have
> never posted anything negative to the de Thouars Brothers, never assumed
> rank or purported to teach something that I do not, never stepped
> forward without the direct, specific and personal permission of Willem
> de Thouars, never did *anything* that bring shame on my teachers
> ('shame' being different than 'embarrassment').
> Lastly; I have been here, in Denver; subject to the hand of my teachers,
> for twenty years. I have stepped forward when I have had a
> responsibility and taken my lumps. I have stood by the door and
> accosted any son-of-a-bitch that stepped up since 1981. I am proud of
> my position with the Family and my discharge of my responsibilities.
>
> > Bla Bla Bla,
> Yes, a cogent point.
>
> > PG
> Chas
--
Steve Gartin
Yes, I said that! I have been communicationally challenged recently and Chas
was ept enough to pass my message in a bottle to the rest of the martial
world. Bottom line: KunTao Silat de Thouars AND all of it's offshoots and
Families is a very unique and exceptionally effective "style" of martial
training. One that is particularly appealing to high level martial
practitioners who are now seeking the understanding of "application" - the
technical skill is well-honed.
Historicly, Uncle Bill has only accepted above blackbelt level students.
People can become quite set in their wayz by that time. Hence, we have a
little political bickering among those exceptionally skilled individuals with
well-thought out opinions - forgetting for a moment that that may not be
founded in reality - and acting "awfully suddenly;" which is a trademark of our
system.
Great Guys All - please look past the bs and check out the system these Men are
so proud and protective of. . . KunTao Silat de Thouars!
Uncle Bill asked me to post his address for anyone interested in the old
"horses mouth" approach to investigation, or just want to keep in touch.
Willem de Thouars
PO Box 330113
KunTao Silat de Thouars
Northglenn, Colorado 80233
Peace to you All:
Steve Gartin - Malabar KunTao Silat de Thouars
Chas wrote:
> Philip Gelinas wrote:
> chas wrote
> > > Mr. Gelinas:
> > > Randall is not telling you all.
> > > Perhaps *you* should talk to Uncle about this situation- or perhaps Ebu
> > > Joyce or Victoria. Randall is careening out of control-
> >
> > Chas,
> > One of the peculiarities of having Willem de Thouars as a guest at my
> > school is the possibility of talking to him, so the comments made by me
> > are not based on Randall's singular (and according to you mistaken)
> > point of view.
> >
> > All that aside, I was making reference to the fact that as a senior in
> > his group, Randall was free to make his observations (however wrong they
> > may be in your eyes) and post them as a counterpoint to positions you
> > have posted that might be in contrast to his position.
> >
> > Bla Bla Bla,
> >
> > PG
> Hello,
> I received this message via forward and I'd like to interject a comment or
> two. First, any conflict between Randall Goodwin and anyone else is no
> matter of concern. This has been Randall's logo in all the years I have
> known him
> This is not to say that Randall is anything except socially inept. He means
--
Steve Gartin
Yes, I said that! I have been communicationally challenged recently and Chas
was ept enough to pass my message in a bottle to the rest of the martial
world. Bottom line: KunTao Silat de Thouars AND all of it's offshoots and
Families is a very unique and exceptionally effective "style" of martial
training. One that is particularly appealing to high level martial
practitioners who are now seeking the understanding of "application" - the
technical skill is well-honed.
Historicly, Uncle Bill has only accepted above blackbelt level students.
People can become quite set in their wayz by that time. Hence, we have a
little political bickering among those exceptionally skilled individuals with
well-thought out opinions - forgetting for a moment that that may not be
founded in reality - and acting "awfully suddenly;" which is a trademark of our
system.
Great Guys All - please look past the bs and check out the system these Men are
so proud and protective of. . . KunTao Silat de Thouars!
Uncle Bill asked me to post his address for anyone interested in the old
"horses mouth" approach to investigation, or just want to keep in touch.
Steve Gartin
Hello All:
This was a misunderstanding, posted upon erroneous information.
Both Randall and Chas are part of the Family and are both gifted Teachers and
highly skilled Practitioners. The immediacy of the electronic age has combined
with our Family system's "Awfully sudden expression of power" approach to attack
and kinda' made an unrealistic picture of the Family that claims Uncle Bill as
BaPak and Leader.
Please forgive our impetuous natures. . .
Declare Peace!
Peace to All
Steve Gartin - Guru Tua KunTao Silat de Thouars
Founder - Malabar KunTao Silat de Thouars
Randall Goodwin wrote:
> Chas --
>
> You who talk of Hormat and Adat, have none! You do not represent Uncle and
> he resents your constant and continual intrusion into his life through your
> pedantic posturing posts using his name. You publish material that is not
> intended for the public, that you recieved through Steve and not on your own
> merit. The document itself tells that it is not intended for the public:
>
> "This document is only written for the serious and dedicated martial arts
> practitioners who are presently studying or already have accomplished in the
> studies of the main objectives in Kun Lun Pai."
>
> Much of what you do post includes words half-hazardly combined from
> different arts to give it the appearance of authenticity and authority
> (hence the pedantic) but in reality only causes you to look a fool and
> embarasses the rest of us.
>
> I have made every effort to avoid a flame war with you by ignoring posts
> that were personally insulting to me. But when you make public claims to be
> doing something on Uncle's behalf or with his approval and authorization you
> go too far. It is not true.
> I understand that you have had no contact with Uncle for "months" and that
> the last contacts were all asking you to cease and desist in your false
> representations and in the use of his family name.
>
> You have reposted material (on ranking) that was posted in response to a
> specific situation (Roberto and Art) that is better left to lie in the past
--
Steve Gartin
Chas
Ingo Bojak wrote:
> I must admit that I have been following this thread with some fascination.
> I don't feel as bad about all the family fighting in Wing Chun anymore, it
> seems that it is a common occurence wherever there is (a) a family
> structure to the MA and (b) fighting prowress is stressed.
Yeah, the militarists would have just 'appealed to rank' and quashed the
whole thing. Sometimes, when we have no one else, we fight amongst
ourselves. :-)
Another aspect is that the arts derived from the practice of the de
Thouars Family have such a broad base that we *don't* look like one
another sometimes. The Family has tailored the art *so personally* to
various practitioners, that the movement interpretation can be
startlingly dissimilar.
>
> Just another note - I have never heard as much about KunTao Silat as when
> reading this internal fight thread. Maybe this is the best form of
> advertisement after all. It doesn't matter what is said, as long as the
> name keeps sticking...
The Family has almost always taught privately and by invitation only.
This is a 1% art- 1% only of practitioners wants (or needs) what it is
that we do. In the deepest application of the training, only 1% will
find a place in their lives to put such information.
There has never been a 'public' presentation of the art- we all knew one
another and our quarrels were within the Family. As strangers and
newcomers arrived and our art became more of a credential for public
consumption and merchandising- we have had more and more dissension and
public wrangling.
No matter the things said in 'heat of anger', we don't abandon one
another; ever. Ours is a relationship in blood shed between us.
>
> Ciao,
> Ingo
Chas
Wild Bill
Hi Guys,
i have a couple of questions about your family and style.
Back in 1967, I met Willem Reeders, who was a close friend of my late
karate sensei , Gerald Durant. He was a kun tao instructor and seemed to
really know his stuff. I have heard of his students still being active in
the Buffalo , NY area. The other Indo stylist I knew was Roy Wetzel, the
son of WIllie Wetzel, djiminde pookulan.
I know that Willie and ROy got into a fight and the story is that Roy
killed his father, causing a split in the style. Can't verify it one way
or another, as I got it all second hand. I don't knwo what happened to
WIllem Reeders, either as I didn't stay in touch with the NY group after
1971 when I moved to Texas.
What relationship , if any does the kun tao of these two groups have to
the De Thouars family system?
Thanks,
Wild Bill
Chas
Wild Bill wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
> i have a couple of questions about your family and style.
> son of WIllie Wetzel, djiminde pookulan.
> the De Thouars family system?
> Thanks,
> Wild Bill
Both Guru Wetzel and Guru Reeders were West Javan Dutch-Indonesians, as
are the de Thouars Brothers. The lineages derived from Pak Seraks'
student Kam Bun are different from the lineages derived from his student
Mas Djoet. You might infer that there are significant points of question
between the styles.
There are several people who are active that trace to either of them;
Lionel Coangelo, Jenisa Cruz (sp), Mas Don (?), Bill Sanders (?) and so
on.
The spelling of the words may differ, but tjimande (water flowing from a
river) and pukulan (the study of colliding) are aspects of what we do.
Their pentjak is different; that is to say that the movement
choreography is different. The silat is always the same. Their kuntao
skills derive from a different lineage than do ours and again, the
movement is different, the skills are similar. Different aspects and
technical essence will be emphasized, but we are more alike than
different.
Obviously, this is as I understand it and the question would be answered
differently by some other persons.
Chas
'Me and my Brother against my cousin,
Me and my cousin against the world.'
(guys, arn't'cha proud of how I handled that?)
Steve Gartin
Spot on Phillip! I will defend Randall's right to say whatever he wants
too! You never truly appreciate your Freedom until is is lost. Tomorrow is
a bad day to defend liberty - I think we stand today!
It is good to meet you on the Net. You are a fortunate Practitioner to have
someone so incredibly skilled as Randall Goodwin as a regular program in
your school! Having experienced Uncle Bill, you are probably forever
"hooked" on KunTao Silat de Thouars. I have some footage of Randall up at
RedRocks, Colorado. He does a great job of evaluating Preying Mantis and
basic Silat entries and checks. I will eventually get the time and money
together to cut a master of that session. If Randall does not object, I'll
send you a copy. It is not an immediate priority, but don't let me fall
asleep on you. Randall is an excellent teacher and one of the very top in
the world in KunTao Silat de Thouars.
Thank you for promoting him and Uncle Bill.
Philip Gelinas wrote:
--
Steve Gartin
Well said Ingo! Chas is always quick to point out that it isn't folkdancing.
The art kinda' permeates every aspect of your life and makes for very sudden
actions in response to everything. Don't think they planned it as
advertising, but all's well - huh?
Ingo Bojak wrote:
> On 26 Jan 1998, Todd D. Ellner wrote:
>
> > Please keep the private disagreements private. Airing them in front of
> > tens of thousands of people does nobody in the family any good.
> >
> I must admit that I have been following this thread with some fascination.
> I don't feel as bad about all the family fighting in Wing Chun anymore, it
> seems that it is a common occurence wherever there is (a) a family
> structure to the MA and (b) fighting prowress is stressed.
>
> Just another note - I have never heard as much about KunTao Silat as when
> reading this internal fight thread. Maybe this is the best form of
> advertisement after all. It doesn't matter what is said, as long as the
> name keeps sticking...
>
> Ciao,
> Ingo
> ---
> 8th SG WingTsun, 2nd SG Latosa Escrima, Hatha Yoga (GGF)
> # The intellect is like money - a good servant, but a bad master.
> # (B.K.S. Iyengar)
--
Steve Gartin
Yeah! Me for one is proud!
Uncle Bill has always cordially invited the Folks from all of the very few Silat and KunTao
lineages to join in promotion of the Indonesian Arts. Although the arts themselves, being Family
or Village systems, have been clandestinely fragmented by the exigencies of cultural clashes in
Indonesia - they have developed a spirit of cooperation here in America. But even this loose
association has taken 20 years or more to develop. Who knows what lies ahead.
Chas wrote:
--
Steve Gartin
That pretty much sums it up! 1% - Who cares?
Actually, Uncle's system is so deep, wide, high and encompassing that there are
parts of it that have only been given to one or two people. That is why Uncle
formed the KunLun Pai. As a repository for the knowledge of his Teachers.
Uncle takes a skilled practitioner and leads them in the appropriate direction
for their continued education - every one is unique. It is facinating to see
Uncle's Senior Disciples and the traits they share in common while each of them
performs his own distinctive symphony of style.
Chas wrote:
> Ingo Bojak wrote:
> > I must admit that I have been following this thread with some fascination.
> > I don't feel as bad about all the family fighting in Wing Chun anymore, it
> > seems that it is a common occurence wherever there is (a) a family
> > structure to the MA and (b) fighting prowress is stressed.
>
> Yeah, the militarists would have just 'appealed to rank' and quashed the
> whole thing. Sometimes, when we have no one else, we fight amongst
> ourselves. :-)
> Another aspect is that the arts derived from the practice of the de
> Thouars Family have such a broad base that we *don't* look like one
> another sometimes. The Family has tailored the art *so personally* to
> various practitioners, that the movement interpretation can be
> startlingly dissimilar.
>
> >
> > Just another note - I have never heard as much about KunTao Silat as when
> > reading this internal fight thread. Maybe this is the best form of
> > advertisement after all. It doesn't matter what is said, as long as the
> > name keeps sticking...
>
> The Family has almost always taught privately and by invitation only.
> This is a 1% art- 1% only of practitioners wants (or needs) what it is
> that we do. In the deepest application of the training, only 1% will
> find a place in their lives to put such information.
> There has never been a 'public' presentation of the art- we all knew one
> another and our quarrels were within the Family. As strangers and
> newcomers arrived and our art became more of a credential for public
> consumption and merchandising- we have had more and more dissension and
> public wrangling.
> No matter the things said in 'heat of anger', we don't abandon one
> another; ever. Ours is a relationship in blood shed between us.
>
> >
> > Ciao,
> > Ingo
> Chas
--
Steve Gartin
The relationship is the Dutch-Indonesian connection. KunTao and Silat are
separate arts as practiced in Indonesia. Sometimes KunTao was disguised as
Silat in order to be taught openly in spite of the KunTao ban by the
government. James Ingram's style of Silat is a good example. If memory
serves, his is a Hokkien Style Kuntao named Mustika Kweetang Silat. You'd
have to contact Mr. Ingram for the specifics.
Willy Wetzel taught silat. William Reeders taught primarily kun tao,
although you will also find Silat players amongst Mr. Reeders disciples.
The strictly Indonesian practitioners are distinct in several regards from
the DutchIndo's. That could become a topic of discussion in itself. There
are now several Indonesians as well as the Dutch-Indonesians promoting their
arts now - how fortunate we all are!
Wild Bill wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> i have a couple of questions about your family and style.
> Back in 1967, I met Willem Reeders, who was a close friend of my late
> karate sensei , Gerald Durant. He was a kun tao instructor and seemed to
> really know his stuff. I have heard of his students still being active in
> the Buffalo , NY area. The other Indo stylist I knew was Roy Wetzel, the
> son of WIllie Wetzel, djiminde pookulan.
> I know that Willie and ROy got into a fight and the story is that Roy
> killed his father, causing a split in the style. Can't verify it one way
> or another, as I got it all second hand. I don't knwo what happened to
> WIllem Reeders, either as I didn't stay in touch with the NY group after
> 1971 when I moved to Texas.
> What relationship , if any does the kun tao of these two groups have to
> the De Thouars family system?
> Thanks,
> Wild Bill
--
Frederick Fullerton
In article <6aqk0a$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Steve Gartin
<gar...@usa.net> wrote:
> The relationship is the Dutch-Indonesian connection. KunTao and Silat are
> separate arts as practiced in Indonesia. Sometimes KunTao was disguised as
> Silat in order to be taught openly in spite of the KunTao ban by the
> government. James Ingram's style of Silat is a good example. If memory
> serves, his is a Hokkien Style Kuntao named Mustika Kweetang Silat. You'd
> have to contact Mr. Ingram for the specifics.
As a student of Guru Besar Ingram, I would not classify Mustika
Kweetang--as Mr. Ingram teaches it--as KunTao disguised as silat. It is a
system that contains elements from several silat systems, including
pukulan, tjimande, manyang, and elements that could be called KunTao.
Also, bear in mind that Mr. Ingram began his silat training in the 1930s
in Djakarta with William Loreo. After spending part of his youth in a
Japanese prison camp during WWII, he then served with the Royal Dutch
commandoes during the civil war that followed in Indonesia, and spent a
short time in a Indonesian prison camp for Dutch-Indonesians. He
emigrated, first to Holland in the 1950s, and then to the U.S. in the
early 1960s. To the best of my knowledge, he has never had to disguise his
art(s) because of any government ban.
Fred Fullerton
guru muda
GLobo43787
In article <Frederick_Fullerto...@bootp-27.iis.brown.edu>,
Frederick...@brown.edu (Frederick Fullerton) writes:
> It is a
>system that contains elements from several silat systems, including
>pukulan, tjimande, manyang, and elements that could be called KunTao
if it has elements of kung fu/ kuntao mixed with silat, it is kuntao.
>I would not classify Mustika
>Kweetang--as Mr. Ingram teaches it--as KunTao disguised as silat.
or is your query with the fact that it is not DISGUISED as anything?
thanks
Glenn
martial arts
Chas
I have had the privilege of knowing Guru Besar Jim Ingram for many
years. I have never known him to 'disquise' anything. In the times that
he has taught here, with Uncle, he has never other than acknowledged
kuntao as a major part of Mustika Kweeting.
One must remember the political aspects of nationalism and cultural
pride when researching the genesis of some of the styles taught here in
the US.
Chas
GLobo43787
In article <6c1nh1$j...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, Chas
<gryp...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Hi
im sorry we seem to be on different wavelengths here. i thought Mustika
Kweetang was a style of silat. it now appears( to me, cos i didnt know any
better) that it is a combination of several styles of silat, and Kuntao.
in an earlier post from Fred Fullerton he said that (and i deleted the post so
i will have to paraphrase it) he or Mr ingram objected to MK being described
as Kuntao disguised as silat. i was trying to ascertain to what he was actually
objecting.
in Malaysia, anything that is silat and KF mixed is kuntao. in indonesia some
styles are passed off as silat whereas they are kung fu. i just wanted
clarification. please dont beat me again i cant cope.
Love Y'all
Glenn
martial arts
Chas
GLobo43787 wrote:
> Hi
> im sorry we seem to be on different wavelengths here. i thought Mustika
> Kweetang was a style of silat. it now appears( to me, cos i didnt know any
> better) that it is a combination of several styles of silat, and Kuntao.
> in an earlier post from Fred Fullerton he said that (and i deleted the post so
> i will have to paraphrase it) he or Mr ingram objected to MK being described
> as Kuntao disguised as silat. i was trying to ascertain to what he was actually
> objecting.
> in Malaysia, anything that is silat and KF mixed is kuntao. in indonesia some
> styles are passed off as silat whereas they are kung fu. i just wanted
> clarification. please dont beat me again i cant cope.
> Love Y'all
> Glenn
> martial arts
Mustika Kweeting (Kweetang)has some Shantung influence, indigenous silat
of several different styles and so on. As an American, I don't fully
understand what it means to them to name things (all that animist
influence on 'naming')- so I'm never sure what they are actually saying.
Chinese stuff is very good. IMVVHHO, it becomes 'better' when
influenced by the indigenous fighting system. In addition, various
things end up being called 'silat'- the word has a number of very
contextual meanings; combative knowledge, a style of fighting generic,
the blade, the lightning flash, a particular aspect of fighting as with
a kicking silat, a striking silat, etc.
It is then hard to tell, for sure, what it is that they are describing
when they speak of certain things. Guru Besar Jim Ingram has spoken of
the Shantung influence in my hearing and directly- that does not 'water
down' or dilute the celerity of the silat.
It is very direct, very brutal, very effective, very tricky and
completely visually different from classical mainland stuff.
Chas
Chris and Kayci McKinley
Chas wrote:
>
Dear Chas,
RE: "Mustika Kweeting (Kweetang)has some Shantung influence,
indigenous silat
of several different styles and so on. As an American, I don't fully
understand what it means to them to name things (all that animist
influence on 'naming')- so I'm never sure what they are actually saying.
Chinese stuff is very good. IMVVHHO, it becomes 'better' when
influenced by the indigenous fighting system. In addition, various
things end up being called 'silat'- the word has a number of very
contextual meanings; combative knowledge, a style of fighting generic,
the blade, the lightning flash, a particular aspect of fighting as with
a kicking silat, a striking silat, etc.
It is then hard to tell, for sure, what it is that they are describing
when they speak of certain things. Guru Besar Jim Ingram has spoken of
the Shantung influence in my hearing and directly- that does not 'water
down' or dilute the celerity of the silat.
It is very direct, very brutal, very effective, very tricky and
completely visually different from classical mainland stuff.
Chas". This is great. This is informative and polite. No sarcasm
here. I hope this style of conversation continues since I have much to
learn from you on these issues. Thank you for this post.
Chris McKinley