Royce's Black Belt article on Emin Boztepe
Michael Dash
have in the next issue of Black belt magazine. It addresses his
feelings towards Emin Boztepe :) Score one for Royce!
M. Dash
--------------------------------------------------------------------
THE ULTIMATE FIGHTER
The Highs and Lows of Winning, by Royce Gracie
The Ultimate Fighting Championship has given me a great platform for
demonstrating what my family has believed in for over 65 years: That
the techniques of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(R) prepare the best fighters in the
world. Winning at the UFC has made what we do very popular, and the
results are that I am getting a lot of attention, and our Academy is
growing like crazy. The publicity surrounding the UFC is very
controversial, and I receive many requests from the media for
interviews. I like to fight and I like the rewards, both emotional
and financial.
The only down side to being The Ultimate Fighting Champion is the
clowns I must deal with who claim to challenge me or the Gracie
Family, and who hide behind the publicity stunt of a challenge with no
intention of meeting me in the octagon. They use the tactics of a
challenge in an attempt to discredit the integrity of my victories,
and support their weak claims of fighting superiority. They then have
the audacity to explain why they do not want or need to fight in the
UFC.
I heard that there were over 400 applications for UFC IV, and many
fighters make no bones about who they are after - me! We also receive
many direct requests at the Academy from fighters who want to
challenge me, and who feel they deserve special treatment over all of
the other fighters in the UFC, because they are who they think they
are. The final insult comes when we bend over backwards to
accommodate a challenger, who then badgers us with excuses and the
fight never happens.
The most recent example is Emin Boztepe. First came his challenge,
then he told everyone why he does not need to fight in the UFC,
finally all the reasons why a scheduled fight outside the UFC will
never take place. All the while boasting of his alleged fighting
superiority.
In Boztepe’s original challenge letter he made two requests. First,
that he fight only a Gracie. Second, that the winner takes all the
money (Boztepe said he would donate his to charity). Boztepe was
offered a special fight with me in UFC V by Art Davie. With this
offer all the conditions of Boztepe's challenge were met, but Boztepe
then said that he would not compete at the UFC. My brother Rorion,
then went to the effort of setting up a special match at a neutral
location, the Police Academy in Los Angeles. Boztepe then said the
fight was illegal in California, and he would not compete at the
Police Academy because my brother is a "member" and therefore it is
not neutral ground. For the record, the Police Academy is not a
health club and does not have "members". Rorion sits on a civilian
panel that assists the Police Academy with its self defense training.
So does Benny Urquidez and Gene LeBell, whose honor Boztepe is
supposedly defending. Just in case this new excuse is not enough,
Boztepe has his lawyer send a list of guarantees that must be met
before the fight is scheduled. Boztepe then suggested an alternative
location, and when my brother requested the same guarantees as
requested by Boztepe's lawyers, they accused me of not wanting to
fight.
I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
between performances. Boztepe has an open invitation, and a
guaranteed place at any UFC, yet he cannot bring himself to enter. He
requests a private match, then assigns his lawyer the task of making
sure it never happens.
I can only conclude that Boztepe was never serious about fighting a
Gracie in the first place.
This latest example of a publicity stunt by Boztepe is the final
reason why we will no longer take challenges outside the UFC. I
respect the fighters who have the courage to step into the octagon.
The reason the Ultimate Fighting Championship was developed was to
eliminate legal impediments to staging a real life no-holds-barred
fight. Anyone who wants to fight only the Gracies, please respect the
other fighters who have the guts to compete in the UFC. This is
how to get to Royce Gracie.
Michael Dash
>I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
>lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
>individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
>between performances.
Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
M. Dash
Manowar
: das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
: >I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
: >individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
: >between performances.
: Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
: Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
: entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
: M. Dash
Hey Dash,
Did you just reply to your own post? Was it idiocy or just a
desire to parade your linguistic brilliance before the r-m-a crowd?
Oz
PS: I have nothing against GJJ - I just don't like YOU
David L. Williams
: The following is a draft of an article that Royce Gracie is going to
: have in the next issue of Black belt magazine. It addresses his
: feelings towards Emin Boztepe :) Score one for Royce!
Emin counters Mike Dashs post with an appearance at the Oscars, and
a photograph of himself with his date Jacequeline Bisset in People
magazine.
Royce appears in the UFC an event watched by a million+ people.
Emin appears at the Oscars an event watched by a billion people.
Royce appears in Black Belt magazine.
Emin appears in People magazine.
Its Emin 2-0 over Royce!
Hee Hee!
Mike Dash CRUSHED by this turn of events, renounces GJJ, quitting his
job as internet PR man for Gracie Ju-Jitsu(TM) and becomes.........
Michelle MOUSE Krasnoo's press agent!
Eugene Lin, furious, announces a public no-rules "groundfighting"
challenge to MOUSE at the Madonna Inn in California!
Pandemonium reigns!
Oh the humanity...
n9...@netcom.com
: Emin counters Mike Dashs post with an appearance at the Oscars, and
: a photograph of himself with his date Jacequeline Bisset in People
: magazine.
I'm not sure if your report of Emin's schmoozing with Hollywood sleazebags
is true or not. But Royce did the party scene here in New York and dined
at Elaine's of all places. He made it to Page Six of New York's supreme
tabloid rag: the Post. He was quoted as saying he can "take Tyson."
What I'm wondering is, who is Royce's ghostwriter? Who's the one writing
Black Belt columns and giving written interviews? Reading his stuff, you
would think Royce is as eloquent as Cicero. Until you meet him and
realize he speaks like Dikembe Mutombo.
Joji G
-> writing Black Belt columns and giving written interviews? Reading
-> his stuff, you would think Royce is as eloquent as Cicero. Until you
-> meet him and realize he speaks like Dikembe Mutombo.
Many foreigners can read and write Engish just fine, but don't speak as
well. So I wouldn't be surprised if he is the actual author. Although
I wouldn't be surprised eithe if he weren't :)
Joji Suzuki
joj...@channel1.com
Frank James
More likely that Royce writes his articles in Portugese and has someone
translate it. I really doubt that anyone writes for him, but you can be
reasonably sure that everything must be ok'ed by senior Don Rorion...
Ortherwise, Royce may wake up to find a horsehead in his bed ;-)
Frank
--
Frank James
ay...@freenet.carleton.ca
Marty
>das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
>
>
>>I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
>>lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
>>individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
>>between performances.
>
>Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
>Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
>entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
>
>M. Dash
Why am I getting these sudden fleeting visions of Germany suddenly
invading Brazil and Southern California?
Or a vision of Mike Dash and company in those cute little green
shorts (with suspenders and high kneesocks) and the little hats
with the feather in it, driking beer out of a german stien in
the aftermath.
;)
Marty
David L. Williams
: >I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
: >lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
: >individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
: >between performances.
: Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
: Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
: entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
: M. Dash
Michael,
Wow what a knee slapper. As you have so much fun runng down Emin Boztepe
here on the internet why not call him up directly and do so over the phone?
213-666-1635 is the number, I'm sure he'd LOVE to hear from you.
Better still, as he is in the general vicinity why not stop on by in person
and tell him what you think of him face to face?
American Wing Tsun Organization
505 S. Beverly Hills Dr., Suite 1400
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Phone: 213-666-1635
You could call and set up an appointment. Bring Royce or Rorian with you while
you are at it, you could all "do lunch".
D. Williams
J. Grace
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, David L. Williams wrote:
> Michael Dash (das...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
>
>
> : >I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
> : >lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
> : >individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
> : >between performances.
> : Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
> : Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
> : entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
> : M. Dash
>
> Michael,
>
> Wow what a knee slapper. As you have so much fun runng down Emin Boztepe
> here on the internet why not call him up directly and do so over the phone?
>
> 213-666-1635 is the number, I'm sure he'd LOVE to hear from you.
>
> Better still, as he is in the general vicinity why not stop on by in person
> and tell him what you think of him face to face?
>
> American Wing Tsun Organization
> 505 S. Beverly Hills Dr., Suite 1400
> Beverly Hills, CA 90212
> Phone: 213-666-1635
>
> You could call and set up an appointment. Bring Royce or Rorian with you while
> you are at it, you could all "do lunch".
>
> D. Williams
>
>
Can Rickson come to?
rason
Robert Puig
>a photograph of himself with his date Jacequeline Bisset in People
>magazine.
This is very true. I just purchased the new People magazine with
Julia Roberts and Lyle Lovett on the cover and lo and behold there
is a picture of Sifu Emin with Jaqueline Bisset on page 38.
No wonder he was in a hurry to get back to LA after our seminar last
week!
RPuig
Cogito Ergo AWTO
Frank James
In a previous posting, Marty (gun...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu) writes:
> das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) says:
>
>>das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
>>>lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
>>>individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
>>>between performances.
>>
>>Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
>>Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
>>entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
>>
>>M. Dash
>
>
> invading Brazil and Southern California?
>
> Or a vision of Mike Dash and company in those cute little green
> shorts (with suspenders and high kneesocks) and the little hats
> with the feather in it, driking beer out of a german stien in
> the aftermath.
...while standing over an unconscious Emin as Royce dusts off the gi ;-)
--
Frank James
ay...@freenet.carleton.ca
David L. Williams
: > you are at it, you could all "do lunch".
: >
: > D. Williams
: >
: >
: Can Rickson come to?
Why not? The more the merrier. Hell, invite the whole Gracie family.
That way Mike can hide in the middle of em.
: rason
ravid
Michael Peter
> das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) wrote:
>
>
> >I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
> >lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
> >individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
> >between performances.
>
> Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
> Coincidence. Well this whole thing has served as humorous
> entertainment between between the real fights of the UFC.
>
> M. Dash
>
Mike,
I sincerely hope that you are a young person with some maturing left
in front of you.
Mike
rsa...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, David L. Williams wrote:
: > Michael Dash (das...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: >
: >
: > : > I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with...
: > : Boztepe....a circus clown !!!??? Hmmm .... Boztepe ..... Bozo ....
: >
: > You could call and set up an appointment. Bring Royce or Rorian with you while
: > you are at it, you could all "do lunch".
: >
: Can Rickson come to?
=-) Please?
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Sarac, C.E.T. (rsa...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca)
o /
< \__ "I'll teach you to spit on my shoe..."
|
Jujutsu/Aikido/Music/Computers/Philosophy
____________________________________________________________________
-Adams,M.E.
place it in chronological context, it is not a reply to Royce Gracie's
article (nor is Royce's article a reply to it), it was written just
prior to Sifu Boztepe's receipt by fax of Royce's article. I believe
it is also to be published in the letters column of an upcoming issue
of Inside Kung Fu.
Mike Adams
wing...@ihlpm.att.com
==================================================================
April 3, 1995
My original challenge letter was addressed to the Gracie family because
Rorion promotes himself as the head of the Gracie family, and it appeared
that his actions were representative of the entire family. It has since
become quite clear that the entire problem is with Rorion Gracie (and his
partner, Art Davie). It is widely known now that even Rorion's associates
and members of his own family have trouble with him because of some of his
attitudes. In light of this, I would like to make it quite clear that I
have no problem with any member of the Gracie family other than Rorion
Gracie. I have made it quite clear directly to Rorion that it is him
whom I wish to fight. So far he will not respond to this, and insists
that I fight his little brother Royce. I have nothing against
Royce, but will fight him if he insists on being his brother's puppet
in this matter. Rorion now is even trying to drag other members of his
family in to fight his battles for him - battles he won't fight himself.
I would also like to make it clear exactly what has been said and done.
Art Davie, Rorion Gracie's partner in WOW Promotions which promotes the
UFCs, called me and invited me to fight in the UFC. I explained that I
only believe in fighting in self-defense, not for sport, but thanked
him for the invitation. A week later, Gracie Jiu Jitsu students began
posting messages on the Internet essentially calling me chicken for not
competing in the UFC. Since information posted had only been discussed
between myself and Art Davie, I immediately called Art, who denied saying
such things about me and insisted that it was all a misunderstanding and
that no ill will was intended. The GJJ students later publicly
apologized on the Internet, but at least one GJJ student still keeps
writing offensive and misleading - often false - messages.
The damage was done. I did not realize at the time how powerful
a medium the Internet is for quickly and widely spreading news, opinions,
and even gossip. Over the next few months, false rumors that I refused
a direct challenge from the Gracies quickly spread worldwide. And since the
only one I had ever talked to was Art Davie, I knew that only Art and/or his
partner Rorion could be the original source of these rumors. When the
same exact thing was later done in the martial arts press to old,
respected martial artists such as Gene LeBell, I knew that this was no
simple misunderstanding, but rather a purposeful effort on the part of
Rorion Gracie and Art Davie to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the UFCs by
questioning the courage of famous and respected martial artists around
the world and even damaging their reputations. Seeing beginning level
Wing Chun people invited and placed in the UFCs and promoted as
world-class representatives of their arts only served to strengthen my
perception that Rorion Gracie (and his partner, Art Davie) were
deliberately attacking other martial artists and their arts to build
up Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the UFCs and make a fortune in the process.
At this point I decided to respond to the Gracies' long-standing open
challenge with a counter challenge. In my letter, I asked only that
I fight only a Gracie, that the event be recorded/televised, and
that the profits after expenses go to charity. Rorion's public reply
offered me a slot in the UFC with no guarantee of fighting a Gracie.
Art Davie wrote me a letter and later called, each time threatening to
sue me if I did not publicly retract statements I made which compared
the UFCs to professional wrestling. During the phone conversation,
it was mentioned in passing that a possible special fight in the UFC
directly with Royce Gracie might be offered me. Later, a letter was
sent to Inside Kung Fu Magazine offering me the special bout. However,
since neither Art Davie nor Rorion is willing to do this for charity, and
since they are threatening to sue me and the UFC is their event, I will
not meet them under these conditions. I do not feel like making those
who would sue me any wealthier. Rorion later amended his offer to
include an offer for me to come fight Royce at Rorion's school in Torrance.
Since it was obvious that we could not come to terms for a fight at
the UFCs, and since walking directly into their school to fight them
would not be very wise, I countered with a request that the fight be
on neutral ground, and suggested Benny Urquidez's Jet Center or Gene
LeBell's gymnasium. Rorion refused to hold the fight at either
location. About the same time, and without my prior knowledge,
the Martial Arts Gazette called Rorion and confidentially
offered their gym for the challenge match. Rorion refused the offer.
During a phone conversation on February 17th, Rorion told me that
I must fight one of their students first to prove myself worthy of
fighting Royce! Or one of my students must fight one of
theirs first. I told him this was ridiculous, and that I wanted to fight
him, Rorion. Rorion replied, "No!!! You fight Royce!" I said, "Then I
will fight you after I beat Royce," to which Rorion would not reply.
Rorion, like his promoter, prefers sitting behind a desk in a nice
suit and tie challenging and humiliating well-known and respected
martial artists of any style because they both know that they will
not fight anyway.
Rorion was supposed to call back that night with a location and date
for the fight, but did not call back until Tuesday, February 21. He
then offered to let me fight Royce at the Los Angeles Police Academy in
only two days. I asked that it be held one week later because this was not
enough notice to get the media and a professional video team there.
So the fight was scheduled for March 2 with Royce at the LA Police
Academy. Four or five days before the fight was to happen,
Rorion Gracie called me and cancelled the fight, saying that the LA Police
Academy Gym was unavailable for the fight on March 2 and that he
would call back in a couple weeks when other arrangements could
be made. After this cancellation by Rorion, both my attorney and friends of
mine within the law enforcement community advised me not to
fight at the LA Police Academy without a written guarantee that the
police would neither interfere nor bring charges against anyone.
Everyone knows that the police would not really allow a no rules,
bareknuckle fight on their property!
On March 3, my attorney sent a letter to Rorion Gracie summarizing
the events thus far and suggesting that the fight be held on March
14, 1995, at the gym of the Martial Arts Gazette, or at Inside
Kung Fu or Black Belt Magazine if Rorion preferred. He also
said that if Rorion and his promoter apologized to those they
had insulted through their media efforts no fight would be necessary
and that this was actually the preferred solution.
On March 6, 1995, Rorion Gracie responded with a letter which said:
a) The promoter of the UFC had made a professional and courteous invitation
to famous martial artists at the request of fans the world over;
b) he cannot control what "fans" write on the Internet but that he doesn't
support me being called chicken; c) he didn't think Urquidez's or
LeBell's schools were neutral; and d) he doesn't have control of
the LA Police Academy gym's schedule. He then said he had permission for
the "demonstration" to be held on March 9, 10, or 13 and requested me
to choose a date. He agreed to waivers and taping conditions.
My attorney replied back by fax the same day saying that
a fight at the Police Academy is unacceptable (because Police are
sworn to uphold the law, and such a fight is allegedly illegal in
California) unless the Chief of Police or Chief of the Academy provides
a written guarantee that a) the fight is legal, b) the police won't
intervene, and c) no charges will be filed against anyone. He also
stated that without such a written guarantee Rorion was still expected to
comply with the original conditions (a fight at the Martial Arts
Gazette, Inside Kung Fu, or Black Belt Magazine). Most important,
he questioned Rorion's use of the word "demonstration". Apparently,
the Police were only told that the gym was to be used for a
martial arts demonstration rather than a no rules, no referees,
bareknuckle challenge fight.
Rorion responded the same day with a fax in which he wonders why
I should be concerned about fighting an allegedly illegal
fight on police property in front of police more than I would about
fighting the same allegedly illegal fight at a magazine gymnasium
(with no police present). He then states Royce will only fight at
one of the above magazine's gyms if the chosen magazine will provide
the same three written guarantees that my attorney asked of the police.
I feel it should be obvious that doing a no rules, bareknuckle
challenge fight on police property and in front of the police (who
are expecting a mere martial arts demonstration!) is far different
than doing a fight in front of magazine publishers who have no legal
power, especially since both sides have agreed to sign waivers not to
press any charges against the other.
So this is where it currently stands: Rorion refuses to fight me himself.
No matter what. Period. He also refuses to let the fight be done at
Gene LeBell's gym or at Benny Urquidez's Jet Center. Rorion refused
a direct, confidential, personal offer from the Martial Arts Gazette to
have the fight there. He cancelled the March 2nd, 1995 fight that was
originally agreed upon at the Los Angeles Police Academy and he refused
to let Royce fight on March 14th, 1995 at the Martial Arts Gazette or
Inside Kung Fu or Black Belt Magazine.
At this point I find myself deeply surprised at Rorion Gracie's apparent
lack of honor in this situation. But his statement in one letter that he
does not support me "being called a 'chicken'" seems to indicate that
he has some honor. Now if he would just say this about the others whom
he or his associates have insulted, challenged, or humiliated, and
apologize publicly, this whole mess would be done. Or he could just take
off his suit and tie and come out from behind his desk and fight me
himself.
Emin Boztepe
Chief Instructor of the AWTO
Alejandro Samqui
: Sifu Emin Boztepe asked me to post the following here on r.m-a. To
: place it in chronological context, it is not a reply to Royce Gracie's
: article (nor is Royce's article a reply to it), it was written just
: prior to Sifu Boztepe's receipt by fax of Royce's article. I believe
: it is also to be published in the letters column of an upcoming issue
: of Inside Kung Fu.
: Mike Adams
: wing...@ihlpm.att.com
: ==================================================================
: April 3, 1995
The GJJ students later publicly
: apologized on the Internet, but at least one GJJ student still keeps
: writing offensive and misleading - often false - messages.
Who would that student be? Does anybody has any idea about this
student identity?
. : Rorion's public reply
: offered me a slot in the UFC with no guarantee of fighting a Gracie.
: Art Davie wrote me a letter and later called, each time threatening to
: sue me if I did not publicly retract statements I made which compared
the UFCs to professional wrestling.
I think the UFC looking more and more WWF after the comments of people posting
in this newsgroup about the UFC V.
Michael Dash
>April 3, 1995
>My original challenge letter was addressed to the Gracie family because
>Rorion promotes himself as the head of the Gracie family, and it appeared
>that his actions were representative of the entire family. It has since
>become quite clear that the entire problem is with Rorion Gracie (and his
>partner, Art Davie).
What actions is Rorion guilty of? What did Art do?
>It is widely known now that even Rorion's associates
>and members of his own family have trouble with him because of some of
his
>attitudes. In light of this, I would like to make it quite clear that I
>have no problem with any member of the Gracie family other than Rorion
>Gracie. I have made it quite clear directly to Rorion that it is him
>whom I wish to fight. So far he will not respond to this, and insists
>that I fight his little brother Royce. I have nothing against
>Royce, but will fight him if he insists on being his brother's puppet
>in this matter.
Well Royce is the one officially representing the Gracie family in
challenges, and he certainly wants to be the one to fight Boztepe. Since
Royce has recently compared Boztepe to a circus clown, you’d think he’d
have a problem with Royce.
>Rorion now is even trying to drag other members of his
>family in to fight his battles for him - battles he won't fight himself.
Like who? What is Boztepe talking about. Since Boztepe’s challenge was
to the entire Gracie family, it only makes sense that other Gracie family
members would surface to challenge him, but that’s not Rorion’s doing.
>I would also like to make it clear exactly what has been said and done.
>Art Davie, Rorion Gracie's partner in WOW Promotions which promotes the
>UFCs, called me and invited me to fight in the UFC. I explained that I
>only believe in fighting in self-defense, not for sport, but thanked
>him for the invitation. A week later, Gracie Jiu Jitsu students began
>posting messages on the Internet essentially calling me chicken for not
>competing in the UFC.
Hey, I never called Boztepe chicken, or implied he was a coward for not
entering the UFC. I just argued the statement that he never turns down a
challenge. Still, this has nothing to do with Rorion whatsoever.
>Since information posted had only been discussed
>between myself and Art Davie, I immediately called Art, who denied saying
>such things about me and insisted that it was all a misunderstanding and
>that no ill will was intended. The GJJ students later publicly
>apologized on the Internet, but at least one GJJ student still keeps
>writing offensive and misleading - often false - messages.
Sorry, but my messages, while not blindly pro-Boztepe, are not false or
misleading. They were armed with facts.
>The damage was done. I did not realize at the time how powerful
>a medium the Internet is for quickly and widely spreading news, opinions,
>and even gossip. Over the next few months, false rumors that I refused
>a direct challenge from the Gracies quickly spread worldwide. And since
the
>only one I had ever talked to was Art Davie, I knew that only Art and/or
his
>partner Rorion could be the original source of these rumors.
Well, then Boztepe knows little about how rumors are started. Just
because a rumor exists doesn’t mean it’s true or that someone maliciously
started it. Just because someone erroneously interpreted Boztepe’s not
entering the UFC as backing out of a direct challenge from the Gracies
doesn’t mean Rorion or Art had anything to do with starting the rumor.
>When the
>same exact thing was later done in the martial arts press to old,
>respected martial artists such as Gene LeBell,
What is he talking about? I challenge Boztepe to provide even the
slightest shred of proof that the Gracies challeneged LeBell in any way,
shape, or form.
>I knew that this was no
>simple misunderstanding, but rather a purposeful effort on the part of
>Rorion Gracie and Art Davie to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the UFCs by
>questioning the courage of famous and respected martial artists around
>the world and even damaging their reputations.
This is just wild accusations on Boztepe’s part. He’s guilty of what he’s
accusing Rorion of doing... spreading rumors.
>Seeing beginning level
>Wing Chun people invited and placed in the UFCs and promoted as
>world-class representatives of their arts only served to strengthen my
>perception that Rorion Gracie (and his partner, Art Davie) were
>deliberately attacking other martial artists and their arts to build
>up Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the UFCs and make a fortune in the process.
More ignorance on Boztepe’s part. If he cared to carefully watch UFC 2
(the one Scott Baker and David Levicki were in) he would realize that
they were in the untelevised part of the program and that they were never
billed as “world class”. They way fighters are billed are controlled by
the fighters themselves.
>At this point I decided to respond to the Gracies' long-standing open
>challenge with a counter challenge. In my letter, I asked only that
>I fight only a Gracie, that the event be recorded/televised, and
>that the profits after expenses go to charity.
Well, Rorion offered Boztepe three opportunities to fight Royce; (1) The
Torrance Academy, (2) the Police Academy, and (3) a special bout at the
UFC. The only fight that would have prize money would be the UFC.
Boztepe turned all these down.
<snip - retelling of events from Boztepe’s perspective>
The thing that really amazes me is that this all started with Boztepe
being upset about a rumor that he backed down from a direct challenge from
the Gracies. Now this rumor was completely unfounded, but how is the
rumor mill going to react to Boztepe actually turning down three fights
with Royce?
People are going to see that Boztepe issued a “anytime, anyplace”
challenge to fight a member fo the Gracie family. When Rorion offers
three different fights with Royce, Boztepe starts backing away from the
“anytime, anyplace” tone of his challenge. When other members of the
Gracie family make themsleves available to Boztepe to fight, all of a
sudden the challenge isn’t to the whole Gracie family just Rorion.
Everytime a fight with a Gracie was becoming a reality, Boztepe would add
new stipulations to his challenge. As the challenger, Boztepe would be
expected by most to at least abide by his own challenge. This turn of
events will really get the rumor mill going.
Also, this thing about the challenge only being for Rorion isn’t going to
fly. Boztepe’s brazen challenge was to the entire Gracie family and it
was made very publicly. Unless Boztepe issues an apology to the rest of
the Gracie family as publicly as he issued his challenge, they will still
take issue with his challenge. Many of the Gracie, such as Rickson, are
waiting to see how things work out betweeen Rorion and Boztepe before
attempting to approach Boztepe themselves. Now that Boztepe si unwilling
to accept the fights offered to him and Rorion and Royce have basically
“washed their hands” of him, don’t be surprised to see other members of
the family (or their protoge’s) ending up on Boztepe’s doorstep and
challenging him on the spot. Basically, Boztepe’s challenge has placed
the attention fo the entire GJJ/BJJ community on him like a bullseye and I
think he will either end up in a fight or be force to actually back down
to a direct challenge.
I just wish, for once, that Boztepe would actually explain how is it that
Rorion is supposed to have offended him or Wing Tsun. I think if he mad
evenm a small attempt to research his own accusations, he would discover
they were groundless. Unfortunately I think he’s letting his pride get
the better of him and making some dumb decisions. However, I don’t think
he really had the intention of fighting a Gracie, as shown by the tone of
his original challenge. I really think this is all just a publicity stunt
in reaction to the negative rumors he has heard about himself. I think in
the long run this stategy of his will backfire and he will fall back into
obscurity. It’s disappointing because I would have like to seen Boztepe
fight Royce or fight in the UFC to see how good he really is, and not just
have the flattery of his admirers to go on. Who knows? Maybe one day
he’ll send a Wing Tsun representative to be in the UFC.
M. Dash
--
Michael Dash
das...@earthlink.net
********************************************************************
*The above opinions and statements are mine and are not necessarily*
*those of any other individual or organization. *
********************************************************************
Michael Peter
> This is my response to Emin Boztepe's letter posted by Mike Adams:
>
>
>
I could go through point-by-point and fill in the information that Mike
Dash so conveniently leaves out in an attempt to prove his points. But
I've done that, but it seems in Mike's world you ignore information that
hurts your arguments.
Suffice it to say that half-truths are the tools of men with no character,
Mike. And if you are ever in Austin, it would my extreme pleasure to show
you exactly what WT is all about.
:)
Mike
Don Geddis
In article <3n67dr$2...@giga.bga.com>, pet...@ses.com (Michael Peter) writes:
> [Crumple crumple - TRASH]
>
> I could go through point-by-point and fill in the information that Mike
> Dash so conveniently leaves out in an attempt to prove his points. But
> I've done that, but it seems in Mike's world you ignore information that
> hurts your arguments.
I've actually never heard an answer for what, in Boztepe's mind, started his
whole problems with the Gracies. The only thing he's pointed to is postings
on the net by GJJ students, which began a rumor that he backed down from a
challenge, and this rumor eventually reached him. Does he still claim that
these students were in any way connected with the official Gracies? Based on
what evidence?
Boztepe appeared to decide from this that he had somehow been offended by the
Gracies themselves, and now by Rorian in particular. This just seems to be
a monumental mistake on Boztepe's part. Does anyone have a better explanation
for what annoyed Boztepe?
Oh yes, a second reason: that LeBell was "challenged" by the Gracies. Again,
rather than just claiming this to be true, does anyone have any real evidence
that it is? LeBell himself thinks so, but it appears he was also mistaken.
So I ask those on the WT side: Please point to specific actions on the part of
any Gracie, prior to Boztepe's original insulting challenge, that were in any
way dishonorable toward Boztepe or WT. (After the published challenge, of
course, all bets are off. If someone obviously insults you, as Boztepe did to
WOW/Davie/Gracies, there's no real obligation to remain polite to them.)
-- Don
--
Don Geddis Ged...@CS.Stanford.EDU http://www.stanford.edu/~geddis/
I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh
Gregory E Garland
Don Geddis <Ged...@CS.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>> In article p...@fu-berlin.de, das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) writes:
>
>> [Crumple crumple - TRASH]
>>
>> I could go through point-by-point and fill in the information that Mike
>> Dash so conveniently leaves out in an attempt to prove his points. But
>> I've done that, but it seems in Mike's world you ignore information that
>> hurts your arguments.
>
>I've actually never heard an answer for what, in Boztepe's mind, started his
>whole problems with the Gracies. The only thing he's pointed to is postings
>on the net by GJJ students, which began a rumor that he backed down from a
>challenge, and this rumor eventually reached him. Does he still claim that
>these students were in any way connected with the official Gracies? Based on
>what evidence?
>
>Boztepe appeared to decide from this that he had somehow been offended by the
>Gracies themselves, and now by Rorian in particular. This just seems to be
>a monumental mistake on Boztepe's part. Does anyone have a better explanation
>for what annoyed Boztepe?
Several months ago I put on some dark sunglasses, pulled a hat down low
over my face, and turned up the collars on my overcoat and then went
browsing through the MA section of a local bookstore. I was looking for
Rorian's generic GJJ ad and, sure enough, it claimed that in the UFC
Royce had shown that other styles couldn't compare to GJJ; Wing Chun
was specificly mentioned as one of those styles that had been shown to
be inferior.
>
>Oh yes, a second reason: that LeBell was "challenged" by the Gracies. Again,
>rather than just claiming this to be true, does anyone have any real evidence
>that it is? LeBell himself thinks so, but it appears he was also mistaken.
>
6-8 weeks before whatever MA rag Art Davie used to issue his 'invitation'
to fight in the UFC to LeBell and a bunch of other people came onto the
stands, our loyal group of GJJ fanatics let us know that Davie was going
to "name names" of well known people in the MA world that had been asked
to fight in the UFC but had backed down. This was accompanied by the
usual Gracie fan rhetoric of how people who wouldn't fight the Gracies
were dishonest charlatans who were just afraid of losing their students
and the money they pay, and how this article would force them to fight.
After the article came out it was all "oh, he didn't _really_ name
anybody *wink*nudge* he just _invited_ them to participate". I wouldn't
be suprised if the same stuff was being floated through other media
as well.
>So I ask those on the WT side: Please point to specific actions on the part of
>any Gracie, prior to Boztepe's original insulting challenge, that were in any
>way dishonorable toward Boztepe or WT. (After the published challenge, of
>course, all bets are off. If someone obviously insults you, as Boztepe did to
>WOW/Davie/Gracies, there's no real obligation to remain polite to them.)
>
I'm not on the WT side; i consider Boztepe's challenge to be on the
same level as the Gracie hype. The only difference being that Boztepe
seems to be motivated by some silly sense of pride or "saving face",
while Rorian seems to just want to shake the money tree for all it's
worth.
michael_dash
>>
>>
>>
>
>I could go through point-by-point and fill in the information that Mike
>Dash so conveniently leaves out in an attempt to prove his points. But
>I've done that, but it seems in Mike's world you ignore information that
>hurts your arguments.
There are no half truths in my posts. I've discussed all the facts from the
letters that have passed between the two. You confuse my not accepting your
opinion on this matter as leaving out facts.
>
>Suffice it to say that half-truths are the tools of men with no character,
>Mike. And if you are ever in Austin, it would my extreme pleasure to show
>you exactly what WT is all about.
>
>:)
>
>
>Mike
Why do you confuse my criticism of Boztepe as criticism of Wing Tsun? During
this whole thing, I haven't discussed Wing Tsun at all. What is it with you
guys? When you say negative things aobut the Gracies, I don't get all upset
and take it personally becauuse I know you're just expressing your opinion,
whether I agree with it or not, and it isn't necessarily a personal attack on
me. You guys need to lighten up! Not everyone is guy to admire or
hero-worship Boztepe. Get used to it.
Robert Puig
>
> In article p...@fu-berlin.de, das...@earthlink.net (Michael Dash) writes:
> >
> >
> >
>
> I could go through point-by-point and fill in the information that Mike
> Dash so conveniently leaves out in an attempt to prove his points. But
> I've done that, but it seems in Mike's world you ignore information that
> hurts your arguments.
>
> Mike. And if you are ever in Austin, it would my extreme pleasure to show
> you exactly what WT is all about.
>
> :)
>
>
> Mike
Me too!!!
michael_dash
>
>pet...@ses.com (Michael Peter) wrote:
>> Mike. And if you are ever in Austin, it would my extreme pleasure to
>> show
>> you exactly what WT is all about.
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> Mike
>
> Me too!!!
You guys crack me up! You can't effectively counter my points so now you
want to publcily offer to fight me as if it will somehow help Boztepe's
character. Boztepe publicly challenged the Gracies then backed out of
three different opportunities that met his challenge. Someone from the
Gracie clan even went to Boztepe to fight him, so he conveniently changes
his tune to say that he only wants to fight Rorion. If I go by judging
you two, I can see what Wing Tsun is about, it appears to be about blind
loyalty. The myth of Emin Boztepe is shattered and crumbling in face of
the reality of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and he can't handle it. Obviously you
guys can't handle it either. Can someone even describe in detail what it
is Rorion has supposedly done to cause Boztepe's challenge. How did he
insult Wing Tsun or Boztepe? Boztepe still has yet to say what this is
all about and he probably won't because then it will become obvious that
this is a publicity stunt.
Michael Peter
> In article <3n9l67$e...@ds9.comland.com>, rp...@commland.com says...
> >
> >pet...@ses.com (Michael Peter) wrote:
>
> >> Mike. And if you are ever in Austin, it would my extreme pleasure to
> >> show
> >> you exactly what WT is all about.
> >>
> >> :)
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> > Me too!!!
>
> You guys crack me up! You can't effectively counter my points
Buddy, I have countered or commented on each and every point you
have ever presented. You still sow disinformation and are clueless.
Even in the face of information which invalidates your points you
refuse to back down. You want to go over everything again?
You present part of the story and eliminate the chronological order,
then I or Mike Adams come in and fill in the rest of the information
that you conveniently leave out, and put everything in perspective
with respect to order of occurrence. You present only the information
that will help you argue your points and ignore everthing else.
Your logic is also piss-poor. If you'd like, I could do up a couple of
formal proofs to show you exactly how and where. Ever had any training in
logic, Mike? Ever done any extensive coursework in logic and logic
theory? On a basic level, if you are presenting a causal argument, you
can't then ignore a significant causal relationship in what you are arguing
about. You do this *all* *the* *time*. Then you say everyone else's
logic is flawed. I can't tell you how hard I laughed the first time
you wrote that. You have no clue.
> so now you
> want to publcily offer to fight me as if it will somehow help Boztepe's
> character.
No, that had nothing to do with Boztepe. I just wanted to watch you get
your panties bunched up. Thanks for obliging :)
> Boztepe publicly challenged the Gracies then backed out of
> three different opportunities that met his challenge.
Wrong.
> Someone from the
> Gracie clan even went to Boztepe to fight him, so he conveniently changes
> his tune to say that he only wants to fight Rorion.
Uh, if someone had went to Boztepe, he would've fought them. The entire
time this thing has been going on Emin has been looking for the person who
was behind it all. So you are complaining that Emin found him?
> If I go by judging
> you two, I can see what Wing Tsun is about, it appears to be about blind
> loyalty.
Nope. I'm just trying to balance the picture in the face of the skewed and
misshapen crap you present as factual evidence.
> The myth of Emin Boztepe is shattered and crumbling in face of
> the reality of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and he can't handle it. Obviously you
> guys can't handle it either.
Yes, please help me :)
I just have a personal problem with YOU, Mike. You're weird.
ps. There is no Emin myth. You know nothing of the man or his abilities, so
can say nothing.
> Can someone even describe in detail what it
> is Rorion has supposedly done to cause Boztepe's challenge.
YES!
> How did he
> insult Wing Tsun or Boztepe?
READY? I'll need the help of Greg Garland on this one:
Don Geddis sez:
>
>I've actually never heard an answer for what, in Boztepe's mind, started his
>whole problems with the Gracies. The only thing he's pointed to is postings
>on the net by GJJ students, which began a rumor that he backed down from a
>challenge, and this rumor eventually reached him. Does he still claim that
>these students were in any way connected with the official Gracies? Based on
>what evidence?
>
>Boztepe appeared to decide from this that he had somehow been offended by the
>Gracies themselves, and now by Rorian in particular. This just seems to be
>a monumental mistake on Boztepe's part. Does anyone have a better explanation
>for what annoyed Boztepe?
Greg sez:
Thanks Greg (I did the same thing myself when this all started, and had a similar
experience). I included Greg's caveat at the end, Mike, so you'd understand that
Greg's not WT.
> Boztepe still has yet to say what this is
> all about and he probably won't because then it will become obvious that
> this is a publicity stunt.
Just keep them eyes shut tight, Mike, keep them eyes shut tight.
Mike
Rick Shank
Michael Andrew Hartman <mhar...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>MichaelDash wrote:
>: Someone from the
>: his tune to say that he only wants to fight Rorion.
>
>
>Michael
To the best of our knowledge, no one _went_ to challenge Emin. Any offer was
through the postal service. Mike Dash is intensely picking a fight for
someone else to battle. That is probably why the offer was given to Mike. So
far, Mike has put more energy into this Boztepe/Gracie fight than either
Boztepe or all of the Gracies together care to. Chill Mike. You're losing
credibility. The credibility of the Gracies and Boztepe lie within themselves,
not in your words. I chose to not say a bad word about either as I couldn't
defeat either of them. I'll wager to bet you couldn't either although you are
strongly begging for your chance to try.
Rick