Open letter from Uncle Bill de Thouars re: Paul de Thouars
Randall Goodwin
could never have started to learn Serak at age 6, as he had claimed in
his so called expression of the truth about the de Thouars brothers.
When Paul came to Holland from New Guinea at age 26 in 1954 -- he then
began to train under Uncle John in the Art of Serak.
When he came to the U.S. in 1960 he was just a finished student in the
art and was allowed to teach. Bukti Negara was not given to him by
God. When Victor refused to give to Paul the manual for Tongkat - Paul
came with his version of Bukti Negara as a replacement art. Paul is
only the pendekar in Bukti and not in Serak.
I was never interested in learning Serak. The de Vries brothers, Paul
and Maurice de Thouars are minimum in my thoughts and to include their
arts also. Both men have never impressed me.
Paul claims a lots to his wisdom but is very immature as a teacher.
His skills as a martial artist is very good - his historical
recordings are questioned by me since I know about his background. I
saw him train in 1946 in Siam just for a short while under Ernest de
Vries Uncle John and Ernest corrected Victor with his jurus in the
80's in Holland. What he had learned from Paul.
In my opinion Victor has far surpassed Paul and Maurice in Serak and
in strength. There is nothing Paul or Maurice have to show me, What I
already know.
Paul only met John and Ernest briefly for the first time in 1946, when
I also met both of my Uncles.
Also highly noticeable are the Shaolin techniques out of San Soo
incorporated into the Bukti Negara System. Paul is much better off in
being first more truthful with himself. before lying to others. His
possessiveness in trying to control others with his freaking lies
brought him in collision with his two younger brothers, Victor and I.
Paul wants war -- he is in war now. More will follow with the exposure
of Paul.
None of the board members of the Bukti Negara were around to know when
Paul began training in Serak as Victor and I were. Some of them were
not even born.
Uncle Willem de Thouars
founder of Kuntao Silat de Thouars
TravIsGod
>Paul de Thouars was never a leader, only in his own imagination. He
>could never have started to learn Serak at age 6, as he had claimed in
>his so called exp
Will you people give it a rest already!!!!! Firstly, nobody cares about your
lineage war. Secondly, and I say this honestly, you are making yourselves look
petty and to put it flatly, stupid.
Trav
Randall Goodwin
training with Uncle at the Gelinas Academy of Martial Arts where I
teach.
Class starts at 10:00am Saturday
registration is at 9:30 and costs $75.
1121 St Catherine St west third floor
Some of the excitement is due to comments that have been floating
around for quite some time which have been put up on the Bukti Negara
website.
I have personal knowledge of some of these issues and think that some
may find it adds to the understanding of the issues involved.
I met Uncle in the mid 70's, I had studied several arts before that, I
received a Black Belt in Okinawate from the late Earl Alston. I had
learned the first four Serak djurus from Wayne Welsh. I met Uncle at a
banquet. I had met Steve Gartin, one of Uncles students on the way to
the banquet and we had gone out behind a gas station to see what each
other had. My teachers Earl and Wayne had both said that I would be
interested in Uncles arts because of my interest in Pa Kua and Silat.
Uncle was not taking any students so I had Steve Gartin show me the
Dragon Tail form (Ling Sing Toi) then I presented it to Uncle and he
accepted me as his student. Prior to me were Philip Sailas, George
Morin and Steve Gartin. I am the fourth oldest senior, excluding Wayne
Welsh who is a whole generation ahead of us others.
I met Paul during his visits to Colorado and when I went to Victors in
California to fight in a backyard full contact tournament with Art
Remraff's Silat students. Later he moved to Colorado. When he arrived
his Winnebago (or maybe some other brand) got stuck going over the
mountains and I drove my motorcycle over the pass to help him. The
carburater was set for sea level and wouldn't quite make it that last
little bit of hill.
When Victor de Thouars moved to Colorado he became my rommate for a
year. We were bodyguards for a "would-be" mafioso type, "Slick Vick"
we called him. Once, Chas (well known in this group), Victor and I
went to do a collection at the Crazy Horse bar (a strip joint)
together. So Chas can attest to the truth of many of these bare facts
too.
Chas provided space for me to teach at the Highland Art Center and I
introduced him to Uncle and Steve Gartin and Victor and Kumar (unless
Steve did for Victor or Kumar I don't remember). I taught the Tongkat
at that time too. But as I have mentioned in another post it doesn't
resemble the current version. At that time it was to be a
collaboration between the three brothers. The first form was made by
Paul, the second by Bill, and the third by Victor. I only taught the
first form. Chas, Chuck Stahmann and David Anderson and John Garcia
all remember this I am sure.
Steve and I were involved with publishing a martial arts magazine at
that time. Titled "Of Yin and Yang" it never got past it's first
issue. I was fighting at Ralph Krause's tournaments quite often at
that time.
During his two years in Colorado I studied Serak with him. Then he
moved back to Califonia. I went to California and stayed with Paul at
his home for a few months while I got settled. Of course I was there
to study Serak I stayed five years studying there. Steven Plinck
joined us and for several years he was the only other student that
Paul had. Later he was also gracious enough to let me stay with him
for a short while. I moved into the Sivananda Yoga Vedanta center for
three years. I became certified to teach Yoga by Swami
Vishnudevananda. Paul alway had a hard time understanding why I
studied such esoteric things. A good friend of mine had a Tai Chi,
Hsing I, Pa Kua school in Torrance, I met Roger when Steven Plinck and
I visited his school which was a few blocks from Steven's home. I
spent a lot of time there too. I moved into my truck and lived that
way traveling between schools, Pauls, Stevens and the Yoga center for
showers and sharpening knives when I needed money. It was rather
carefree.
Now Paul disapproved of my studying other martial arts but I kept it
up. Sometimes Uncle would visit. Once Uncle visited and took me to
Disneyland that was when Willy Wetzel died. I also saw George Morin in
California and met William Sanders at Pauls. He was showing djurus
that looked a lot like Serak. Danny Inosanto became involved with Paul
in 1984 and I met him first at Paul's home. Later we did some
demonstrations at Danny's school in Torrance.
I was ranked Guru Muda by Paul. Victor made the sash that I wear when
I am in that persona. I believe that Steven Plinck was Murid Dua at
that time. We did one demo in Torrance at the Tai Chi school where
David Carradine showed up. I found him kinda standoffish and arrogant.
But the school where he did some Praying Mantis, Kam Hsuen's was
represented at the demo.
Now Victor was always acknowledged as a finished player of Serak. I
don't know why Paul would try to back down on this and say he doesn't
know much. Paul was always so PROUD of his religion, so why is he
lying like this? Perhaps the pride was more important that the
religious precepts that they went with.
Now Paul kicked me out of class in 1985. Victor visited and I had a
dispute with him and that was the reason. I once saw someon post
something about my not getting cigarettes for Paul as the reason. That
is not true. If my rank or recognition was revoked, I am not aware of
it because no one has ever told me that. I do know that my name
doesn't appear on any of the things that has ever been written about
the art by Paul or Victor. But if you want to ask someone, ask Danny
Inosanto. He knows me from Pauls and I have pictures of us, Paul
Victor, George Morin (who also studied some Serak with Victor), Danny
Inosanto, Jon de Jong (Steven Plincks uncle and a Silat instuctor of
Danny's) and Steven Plinck. I have my Guru Muda sash on in these
pictures.
At that time there was no art of Bukti Negara. It had not yet been
invented.
Another person I studied with for a short time was Kumar (Bruce)
Frantzis (sp). Kumar was a very good practictioner even then. I assume
he is much better now. He gave some demos that I was involved in and
threw my quite far when I kicked at him one time. I threw a roundhouse
kick at his head, (by the way I learned my kicking from Russel Perron)
and I didn't even feel him touch me but I was flying and spinning
about 15 feet before I hit the ground. It was a good thing the
audience scattered because I landed right in them. But Kumar can
attest to the association of Paul and myself at that time as well. For
that matter our group was quite involved with Kuamar when he first
went to Colorado in 1979.
On the way to California to study Serak I stayed in Sante Fe for the
summer, living and teaching at Brian Lee's Tae Kwon Do. There I
learned the short Yang form with a friend that also practiced Choi Lay
Fut. I also practiced with people who did Aikido, and Suai Chou (sp?)
and Eagle Claw (from New York).
Presently I am the Secretary of the Eastern Canada Chinese Martial
Arts Federation. We are giving a seminar on October 30th. There will
be Wu Tai Chi and Choy Lay Fut and Chi Kung and White Crane and other
material presented. Info can be requested from me directly by email at
randall...@geocities.com or leave a message at (514) 765-8717.
So I await the flames.
Chas
> Will you people give it a rest already!!!!! Firstly, nobody cares about your
> lineage war. Secondly, and I say this honestly, you are making yourselves look
> petty and to put it flatly, stupid.
You people should give it a good watch; Trav, you especially.
Not only is it two (and more) very high level martial artists, they are
brothers. Since you don't know what motivates such men from the get-go,
hush and learn. The public issues *are* petty- you don't think that
they're going to come out *open* do you? This is 'wide open, heartless,
and inviting', talking to 'have no remorse'.
You can't tell the players without a program; due diligence:
Paul: http://www.buktinegara.com/
Willem: http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/
Victor: http://www.serak.com/
I should think that a lawyer would have more insight into such things.
Neither of them is 'stupid' and either, or the others, could dribble
your 6', 225 lb., 34 yr old, Isshinryu/BJJ/weightlifting playing ass all
around the ground of your choosing at your convenience; bring a friend,
send a note, show up when you will kind of thing, you know? Wouldn't
break a sweat-
Flat enough for you?
Chas Clements
http://www.nettaxi.com/citizens/gartin/
for more information on the de Thouars' Family Arts written by (adoring)
students
e-mail addresses are wrong- use this one.
Randall Goodwin
On the second point I agree, we do look a little stupid.
But on the first point I disagree. Many people care. Victor was dissed
in Pauls page, Willem was dissed. Unsupportable and libelious
statements were made. Uncle has the right to make his statement
relative to this and where better than on an unmoderated
rec.martial-arts.
There are many people affected by the issues. If you don't want to see
it or read you can define a kill filter. But if you take the time to
read and respond, well then your interest is evident and the self
contradictory nature of your post manifests itself.
I have studied with all of those involved and these issues reflect on
my legitimacy or lack thereof. I have films of the chinese kuntao of
Uncle from shortly after his arrival in the US and yet his brother
claims he had never practiced. His brother supported Bill for many
years, so he either:
a) Lied previously
b) is lying now.
You can't attest to his honesty and ignore the contradictions.
By the way, Uncle never claimed 80 arts. He has claimed 11 and only
claimed completion in 3 of them. He has been exposed to more than 80
arts though.
Victor's legitimacy is also attacked. I know that Paul has
acknowledged Victor as having completed the Serak system in my
hearing.
Bill Sanders also has associations going back to Paul and Uncle. Of a
somewhat weaker sort, but Paul gave him the name of Pusaka for his
system. So his students probably care too.
Relative to public claims about his Art, Uncle makes very few. He is
not a publicity hound trying to establish his legitmacy, His
legitimacy was recognized years before he became public. His story
hasn't changed, His teachers have the same names 30 years later. The
forms are the same. I have close to 100 and still don't know them all.
This from a man without an art? yeah right.
So if you aren't interested you don't have to join in this thread,
that is your right.
If you aren't interested,
I wonder why you did?
But seriously if we ignore injustices
perhaps we perpetuate them.
>>
>>Paul de Thouars was never a leader, only in his own imagination. He
>>could never have started to learn Serak at age 6, as he had claimed in
>>his so called exp
But Uncle says his uncle lived 600 miles away in Bogor at the time
Paul was 6 and Paul was at the sugar cane factory of Tigowangi, so how
did he get to class so often?
><snip diatribe>
>
>Will you people give it a rest already!!!!! Firstly, nobody cares about your
>lineage war. Secondly, and I say this honestly, you are making yourselves look
>petty and to put it flatly, stupid.
>
>Trav
Chas
> So I await the flames.
Randall Goodwin is one of the two finest martial artists I have ever met
of their generation- the other one is Gartin. Both of them are, and have
always been, senior to me and a model for my practice.
Any opportunity to study with him should be valued. He is a man of
integrity and personal honor and an immense body of knowledge that is
thoroughly practiced and refined.
I remember things to be as he said.
Chas
TravIsGod
>in Pauls page, Willem was dissed. Unsupportable and libelious
>statements were made. Uncle has the right to make his statement
>relative to this and where better than on an unmoderated
>rec.martial-arts.
Then sue. Take it up in court. You are doing little more than costing
yourselves public respect as an art.
>a) Lied previously
>b) is lying now.
>
>You can't attest to his honesty and ignore the contradictions.
Nobody is asking for proof. I believe that each of these guys can whup ass in
a major way. I'm merely stating fact - nobody is going to win this one.
Students, like yourself, need to be attenuating the teachers' misguided desire
to make a public statement. My teacher, who's also studied for 40 years,
wished to do some similar things with his teacher, over slights and statements,
some public, some not. My job as student/confidant was to talk him down and
keep him from disrespecting himself publicly by engaging in some schoolyard
insult-fest.
>By the way, Uncle never claimed 80 arts. He has claimed 11 and only
>claimed completion in 3 of them. He has been exposed to more than 80
>arts though.
>
>Victor's legitimacy is also attacked. I know that Paul has
>acknowledged Victor as having completed the Serak system in my
>hearing.
I question NONE of their legitimacies.
>If you aren't interested,
>I wonder why you did?
>
>But seriously if we ignore injustices
>perhaps we perpetuate them.
>
Let me restate: you are not going to "repair" the reputations of any of the De
Thouars brothers by doing this. Their respective martial reputations were
fine, nay, astounding before this, and nobody is going to start going up to
Willem & saying "I could take you" over some claim by his estranged brother
that he hasn't studied anything.
Trav
TravIsGod
>Not only is it two (and more) very high level martial artists, they are
>brothers. Since you don't know what motivates such men from the get-go,
>hush and learn.
Like I need to see more of this to figure out what's going on???
>I should think that a lawyer would have more insight into such things.
>Neither of them is 'stupid' and either, or the others, could dribble
>your 6', 225 lb., 34 yr old, Isshinryu/BJJ/weightlifting playing ass all
>around the ground of your choosing at your convenience; bring a friend,
>send a note, show up when you will kind of thing, you know? Wouldn't
>break a sweat-
>Flat enough for you?
who ever said anything otherwise? Although, I could show up with some friends
who've been at the game as long as they have.
as for "flat enough for me" - you should tell these guys that airing their
laundry on RMA is definitely NOT the way to discredit someone. Now, I know you
have respect for all these guys, but, c'mon, after the repeated episodes where
they or their minions have come on here and demonized you, I figure that you'd
agree with me. This is another wholly undignified episode of lineage A vs.
lineage B.
And I ain't 34.
Trav
RedF841322
>From: Chas gryp...@home.com
>Date: Fri, 08 October 1999 12:19 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37FE188A...@home.com>
>
>TravIsGod wrote:
>> Will you people give it a rest already!!!!! Firstly, nobody cares about
>your
>> lineage war. Secondly, and I say this honestly, you are making yourselves
>look
>> petty and to put it flatly, stupid.
>
>Not only is it two (and more) very high level martial artists, they are
>brothers. Since you don't know what motivates such men from the get-go,
>they're going to come out *open* do you? This is 'wide open, heartless,
>and inviting', talking to 'have no remorse'.
>You can't tell the players without a program; due diligence:
>Paul: http://www.buktinegara.com/
>Willem: http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/
>Victor: http://www.serak.com/
>Neither of them is 'stupid' and either, or the others, could dribble
>your 6', 225 lb., 34 yr old, Isshinryu/BJJ/weightlifting playing ass all
>around the ground of your choosing at your convenience; bring a friend,
>send a note, show up when you will kind of thing, you know? Wouldn't
>break a sweat-
>Flat enough for you?
>
>http://www.nettaxi.com/citizens/gartin/
>for more information on the de Thouars' Family Arts written by (adoring)
>students
>e-mail addresses are wrong- use this one.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Shut up. Bjj would wipe all their asses.
Chas
> >You people should give it a good watch; Trav, you especially.
> >Not only is it two (and more) very high level martial artists, they are
> >brothers. Since you don't know what motivates such men from the get-go,
> >hush and learn.
Well, yes.
I'm about ass deep in it and I have to work hard to keep up with the
play.
Let me make an analogy: I used to watch them as they would pass near one
another (like moving around inside the house)- there would be this
flurry of hands starting at about the waist/wrist; no big movements or
anything. The flurry would stop and one of them would 'heh, heh, heh'
and they would walk on. For years, I thought I knew what they were
doing.
I didn't.
> >Flat enough for you?
> as for "flat enough for me" - you should tell these guys that airing their
> laundry on RMA is definitely NOT the way to discredit someone.
They were brought up in 1930's rural West Java; educated, well to do
families, but still, 1930's Java.
All the lurkers that tattle on me proved to them that the internet was a
powerful means to discredit someone. Jeez, everytime I turned around,
someone was running to Uncle whining that I was laughing at them, the
whiners, and calling them snakehandlers. I just notice that the same
guys just saddled a new horse; gonna ride that one to death too.
Anyway, it is sufficient that it is public- that's where this level of
the disputes is taken, to relieve it of very personal ramifications. The
publicness of it takes the dispute out of a certain other kind of social
interaction.
> Now, I know you
> have respect for all these guys, but, c'mon, after the repeated episodes where
> they or their minions have come on here and demonized you, I figure that you'd
> agree with me.
no, you don't understand the mechanic of it all; I don't mean to be
patronizing. There are a dozen different reasons to do something to
someone in public. A lot of the silat practice has to do with the guru
putting you into hazardous situations to build a mind-set- it's hard to
explain (read Randalls' letter)- everybody gets kicked out, everybody.
Sometimes they are saying; go away and practice for a while, I'll call
you; sometimes it's about an infraction of a series of unwritten laws of
respect based on West Javanese culture that they don't explain except by
calling attention to infractions, it passes; sometimes it's to see how
you deal with rejection and humiliation- whether you stand tight or get
whiny; it's a testing, and you can fail it in a heartbeat.
Sheer gall and a bright eyed death wish will take you a long way with
them- you know, from what I've heard.
> This is another wholly undignified episode of lineage A vs.
> lineage B.
If you have seven (or whatever it is now) competing lineages, the
scuffle will keep them sharp and vital- it insures a continuance of the
heart of the art- that's not even to speak to their personal
differences, just a teaching manipulation. These guys get together and
talk about us behind our backs <g>
> And I ain't 34.
<g>
Thanks buddy-
Chas
leo terlinden
>incorporated into the Bukti Negara System. Paul is much >better off in
>being first more truthful with himself. before lying to others.
And just where did paul learn SAN SOO?
This i would like to hear,And dont say Jimmy h. Woo
Randall Goodwin <randall...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:37fddc3a...@news.videotron.net...
> Paul de Thouars was never a leader, only in his own imagination. He
> could never have started to learn Serak at age 6, as he had claimed in
Chas
> And just where did paul learn SAN SOO?
> This i would like to hear,And dont say Jimmy h. Woo
Gee, where is Drewl when we really *need* him???
Searching for the Truth(tm) is what he does best- he could ask Danny
Huybrechts- Guru Danny has opinions on Truth(tm). well, according to
Drewp anyway.
One of the really cool things about the Universe- there is enough Truth
to go around.
It's like Choice(tm)-
Chas
Randall Goodwin
Dit is Oom Willem de Thouars. Voordat jij was geboren hebben jou vader
en Paul samen met elkaar uitgewerkt in AZUSA. Met sceptisism heb jij
mij
een vraag gesteld, die ik heel gaarne wil beantwoorden. Je hoefd
helemaal
geen geleerde professor te zijn om gespecificeerde technieken te leren
uit een andere spel bij een leergang van een andere meester te
observeren.
Op deze manier heeft Paul zodoende San Soo technieken weten in te be-
werken met zijn latere Bukti Negara spel. Ik neem niets weg van Paul's
wetenschappelijke Serak kunde. Hij heeft ook jou vader zelfs het spel
nog geleerd, voordat Rudy naar Jimmy Woo ging. Paul heeft ook veel
van
Rudy geleerd. Beiden Rudy en Paul zijn grootmeesters wat je nooit moet
vergeten. Groeten aan je ouders, Greta en Rudy zijn nog altijd welkom
in mijn huis in Northglenn. The war between Paul and I is ours, and no
one else. His postings on the net was the consequences he has to face.
Groeten aan je ouders, en veel sterkte.
Mijn adresd is l54l East ll9th pl. Northgleen, Colorado 80233. U.S.A
Oom Willem de Thouars.
On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:08:28 +0200, "leo terlinden"
<a.ter...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>Also highly noticeable are the Shaolin techniques out of >San Soo
>>incorporated into the Bukti Negara System. Paul is much >better off in
>>being first more truthful with himself. before lying to others.
>
Mike Casto
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> leo terlinden wrote:
> > And just where did paul learn SAN SOO?
> > This i would like to hear,And dont say Jimmy h. Woo
>
> Searching for the Truth(tm) is what he does best- he could ask Danny
> Huybrechts- Guru Danny has opinions on Truth(tm). well, according to
> Drewp anyway.
> One of the really cool things about the Universe- there is enough
Truth
> to go around.
> It's like Choice(tm)-
>
> Chas
>
Hmm ... I normally stay out of things like this, but I'd like to throw
in a couple of cents about truth. The way I phrase this is that "Truth
is universal; perception of truth is not."
This is why 10 people can witness the exact same event and no two can
agree 100% on what happened.
OK ... I'm going back to my corner now.
Respectfully, Mike
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> > One of the really cool things about the Universe- there is enough
> Truth to go around.
> > It's like Choice(tm)-
> Hmm ... I normally stay out of things like this, but I'd like to throw
> in a couple of cents about truth. The way I phrase this is that "Truth
> is universal; perception of truth is not."
That definition doesn't cover near enough Truth <g> 'One man's floor is
another man's ceiling', if nothing else.
Think on this; in an animist/shamanist tradition (even after converting
to another religious system), to 'name' something is to create a wholly
new being in the'world'. That 'thing' is going to have it's own energy;
it can act and react, it has power that can be taken or augmented. One
has to pay attention to the name of something- it is very important.
> This is why 10 people can witness the exact same event and no two can
> agree 100% on what happened.
And, they will all be right (given no willful falsehood)- they will, and
can only, report on what happened *to them*. Consider a seminar
experience; for one man, it is a seminal experience in his life which
brings all his previous training into clear focus; for another, it
answers none of his questions and wastes his time; for another, it is a
stop in a ten week 'tour', he will remember no one in attendance but the
guy that tries to hit him and the one that picks up the bill. They are
all reporting their Truth.
> OK ... I'm going back to my corner now.
Protect yourself at all times <g>
Chas
Pukulan Kuntao Silat Kilap Betawi Muda de Thouars
http://www.nettaxi.com/citizens/gartin/
vstar...@gmail.com
> incorporated into the Bukti Negara System. Paul is much better off in
vstar...@gmail.com
vstar...@gmail.com
I loved all three De Thouars Brothers, all amazing in their own styles and arts. I would had stayed with the group at that age of 18 (to 25) but the family feuds chased me away.
God blessed me with the memories of the Serak, Tonkat, and Kun Tao family arts. I miss them so dearly now that I am 50 years old and practice in the open air in my garage by myself.
Thank you Oom Paul, Oom Victor, and Oom Willem (and Oom Karles, Oom Breijars, and the other Dutch Indos)... selemat-tremakasi. God bless you all in heaven for adding to my life's journey.
John 3:16
