Joint Terrorism Task Force Threatens Willem de Thouars
Steve Gartin
Uncle Bill just returned from the Grand Opening of Alexis Ochinikov's school
in Atlanta, Georgia to a frantic wife.
He called me immediately to inform me that he and his Family had been
threatened by some 'Ex-Student of Steve Gartin and Willem de Thouars' to
expose Uncle Bill's 'dirty laundry' on the Yahoo Groups and Rec.Martial-Arts
if he did not stop me, Steve Gartin, from exposing Bob Orlando as an
imposter and Roger Brockman as an inept incompetent buffoon.
Autie Joyce was scared that snipers and hit men would assault the Family, so
she contacted the Northglenn Police and Mark Holstlaw at the FBI's Joint
Terrorism Task Force www.jointterrorismtaskforce.com since he and Donald L.
Estep had interrogated them so many times in the past. She was informed
that nothing could be done until a 'crime' had been committed.
The 'unidentified' telephone agent promised to divulge 'sensitive'
information on the 'internet' if they could not make me, Steve Gartin, stop
informing the public that Bob Orlando is a fake and Roger Brockman is an
inept, incompetent twerp.
So . . . . . my answer to you Joint Terrorism Task Farce gays is. . . .
Bring it on! Send your worst first you gaggle of faggots.
Steve Gartin 720-404-1812
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
www.docslaw.com/Conspiracy.htm
GreenDistantStar
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
news:1192k95...@corp.supernews.com...
clipped
>Bring it on! Send your worst first you gaggle of faggots.
Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
Shouldn't it be something like a 'parade' of 'faggots'....or maybe a
'phalanx' ?
Suggestions, please.
GDS
James Calivar
news:gtcke.12188$E7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Chas
> Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
> Shouldn't it be something like a 'parade' of 'faggots'....or maybe a
> 'phalanx' ?
> Suggestions, please.
Was that the most interesting part of the post for you?
A man's family gets threatened- if not extorted- with dire revelations of
their privacies, over the exposure of a supposed fighting man, and the best
you can come up with is some quip about fags?
Is it so trivial to you that you'd hijack the thread to some sort of
discussion about what to call a herd of fruiters?
You find this *funny*?
Chas
GreenDistantStar
"Chas" <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:n5CdnY8X69P...@comcast.com...
> "GreenDistantStar" <greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote
>> Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
>> Shouldn't it be something like a 'parade' of 'faggots'....or maybe a
>> 'phalanx' ?
>> Suggestions, please.
>
> Was that the most interesting part of the post for you?
Frankly, yes.
> A man's family gets threatened- if not extorted- with dire revelations of
> their privacies, over the exposure of a supposed fighting man, and the
> best you can come up with is some quip about fags?
> Is it so trivial to you that you'd hijack the thread to some sort of
> discussion about what to call a herd of fruiters?
> You find this *funny*?
All due respect, it sounds like a huge over-reaction to an anonymous phone
call to me.
My first reaction was that is was a prank call from Libby, and it still
might be.
Joint Terrorism Taskforce?
Who the hell is that?
GDS
scottsummers
on you? I think that is just a threat because if they did put stuff on
the internet than you could probably get an attorney for that and it
would be proof by being on the internet. Not only that, you can
probably trace the address. That is weird Bob Orlando has other people
talk for him. THat is also weird how he just steals a lot of logos and
makes fake claims. There is so much politics in the martial arts. It
seems like there is really politics money wise in the area of karate
and stuff like indonesian arts. Karate because there are so many very
large organizations and indonesian arts since because of their rarity
people think it is the cool thing to know them now. There are very few
authentic teachers though so everyone wants to claim their certificates
for this and that. My instructor didnt want to do a video for paladin
press because first off he doesnt feel the art is his to "sell" and
take advantage of and secondly because he didnt want people to be able
to steal some of the techniques and claim they always had them in their
system. People will do that and then go make videos and get money off
of you. I also find it strange since Bob Orlando is a Christian or
Jesuit or whatever and yet he is doing a lot of wrongful things without
asking or getting permission from anyone. I saw a few of his videos
and there are very few even similarities to silat or kuntao. Sure he is
pretty good at what he does but I just saw some of his stuff and
thought, that doesnt go with that technique, thats like two completely
different systems. I also saw a technique were he counters a hard
handshake and he does a huge swing completely under the guys armpits.
Silat techniques are never that large or difficult. We have one at my
school from a hand shake and one technique you can do from the
handshake is just grab his wrist with your other hand and kneel while
pointing his hand towards the triangle of his body and it takes him
down. I always wondered where he got that "indonesian" uniform he
wears on his videos too.
Steve Gartin
"GreenDistantStar" <greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ESdke.12251$E7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Yes!
> Joint Terrorism Taskforce?
>
> Who the hell is that?
>
Estep, 49, would lead the Friends and Associates Team.
An undercover cop who specialized in examining radical organizations, Estep
favored jeans and work shirts over the suits and ties of his FBI colleagues.
With a full beard and shock of dark unkempt hair, Estep looked as if he
could walk into any biker bar and never draw a suspicious glance.
But his appearance belied a hard-headed attitude toward crime that had
earned the respect of officers across the metro area during his 27-year
career.
Estep's team would look at every friendship of Harris and Klebold, every
co-worker, anyone who had regular contact with them or knowledge of their
activities.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
www.jointterrorismtaskforce.com/Holstlaw.htm
www.docslaw.com/conspiracy.htm
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
> GDS
>
___________________________
Come on man, don't tell me you ain't paying attention.
I know you better than that! You're jest jivin' me.
_____________________________
In a deposition, Don Estep, a member of Jeffco's intelligence unit and the
FBI's multi-agency terrorism task force for Colorado, made several damaging
admissions. He acknowledged that his unit had videotaped events the night of
the protest but never logged that tape into evidence; that Philp had been
cited for not having a valid Colorado driver's license when there was no
proof that he was even a Colorado resident; and that a Jeffco sergeant had
obtained information about Philp from the state motor vehicle database by
telling a DMV official that Philp was under investigation for felony fraud,
when there was no such investigation.
In another deposition in the case, investigator Kirk Beaulieu admitted that
it's still policy in Jefferson County for individual SWAT members to report
to headquarters, then proceed to the scene of trouble to stage a response --
a time-consuming procedure that hasn't changed since the Columbine
shootings, even though other agencies' SWAT teams are trained to head
directly to the scene. Beaulieu, you may recall, was one of the first SWAT
guys to reach the classroom where Sanders lay dying, more than three hours
after students and other teachers began trying to summon help for him.
Although the county admitted no wrongdoing in the Philp case, you can see
why it was smart to settle the matter: Who needs all this dubious police
work coming out in court? Small wonder, then, that Columbine families
continue to doubt if your office has produced all the records it's been
ordered to produce concerning the tragedy, if your people have come clean
about what they know about Harris and Klebold -- and if the "lessons" for
law enforcement have truly been learned.
Sheriff Stone, your work is almost done. Perhaps in the months ahead you
will have the leisure to read Brooks Brown's book and find out how your
campaign to discredit him devastated him and his family. Perhaps not. But
take notice: The investigation of Columbine is far from over.
Pasted from
<http://www.westword.com/issues/2002-10-31/news/feature_print.html>
Assistant County Attorney Lily Oeffler, whose office is defending Stone in
the litigation. The letter upholds the official timeline to the last tittle,
insisting that contradictory data found in police-dispatch tapes, witness
interviews and statements by Stone's own deputies aren't contradictions at
all. In short, evidence to the contrary be damned: There are no problems
here.
Pasted from
<http://www.westword.com/issues/2001-10-25/sidebar.html/1/index.html>
CBI agent Chuck Davis, 35, would lead the Computer Team. He had joined CBI
in February 1995 after three years with the Air Force Office of Special
Investigations, where he handled counter-espionage and child-pornography
investigations.
From the time he built a computer from a kit in high school, Davis had had a
passion for these magical machines. But he also carried a gun, served search
warrants, kicked in doors and made arrests.
After a personnel shuffle, leadership of the Threats Team would fall to
sheriff's Sgt. Rich Webb, 49. His job was to assess threats of school
violence made after the Columbine tragedy, a task that eventually involved
FBI agents across the country.
With teams in place, computer programs organizing vast amounts of data and
evidence collection well under way, the investigation leaped forward.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
The 'war room'
Monday morning, six days after the tragedy, the task force moved from
Columbine to its new home at the Taj Mahal, the nickname for the Jefferson
County government building in Golden. County commissioners cleared out
west-wing offices to make room.
The area would be collectively known as the "war room," but it was actually
several rooms. One, about 20 feet by 20 feet, held only computers -- Rapid
Start, word processors and machines that let investigators access the
Internet and the Colorado and national crime databases. Another was
divided -- part work space, part telephones. Three other rooms housed
investigators.
The CBI, which handles most lab work for police and sheriff's departments
across the state, took on the ballistics testing. It was a big job --
evidence recovered at the school showed that Harris and Klebold fired nearly
200 rounds.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
You're just making an opening for me to publish more damning information on
the gaggle of faggots, or herd of queers, or whatever the consensus of
opinion dick tastes. . . pole puffers, copsuckers . . . . fill-in-the-blanks
~ the wankers are busted! So they go after Uncle Bill's wife . . . manly
men, NOT!
:-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Steve Gartin
Ring Shattered
E-Traffickers Arrested: Indian/Costa Rican/U.S. Cyber Criminal Alliances
Shut Down
APR 20--Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Karen P. Tandy
today announced the results of Operation "Cyber Chase", a year-long
Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) investigation that
targeted international Internet pharmaceutical traffickers operating in the
United States, India, Asia, Europe and the Caribbean. These e-traffickers
distributed drugs world-wide using "rogue" Internet pharmacies.
Pasted from <http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/>
______________________________________________________________
You heard it here first!
So, they do some *real* work . . . sort of
Then they divert massive funds to terrorising innocent Citizens:
__________________________________
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
news:1192k95...@corp.supernews.com...
Strider
How about if I just toss you into the kill file so that I can go on
with a martial arts discussion?
Strider
Strider
Sounds like a large bowl of fruits and nuts to me.
Strider
hcannon
This all sounds sort of bogus to me.
Steve Gartin
news:1116827254.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> That is weird. What kind of sensitive information could they even get
> on you?
They threatened Uncle Bill ~ not me.
> I think that is just a threat because if they did put stuff on
> the internet than you could probably get an attorney for that and it
> would be proof by being on the internet. Not only that, you can
> probably trace the address.
It was one of the gays from the Joint Terrorism Task Force, I suspect from
what Aunt Joyce told me that it was probably John Carr or Donald L. Estep.
*They* have nothing except empty threats, but it was enough to terrify a
dear sweet old lady.
> That is weird Bob Orlando has other people
> talk for him.
Oh, it ain't the first time. *They* mentioned several names that I had
posted that were mad about it, but most of the conversation was relative to
Roger Brockman and Bob Orlando.
> THat is also weird how he just steals a lot of logos and
> makes fake claims.
All about the money. Who buys kenpo anymore? All those guys; Simonet,
Worden, Janich and Keating were mentioned by name by the *mysterious*
caller. All of them have cashed in, ARE cashing in on our art's name but
selling kempo/something.
> There is so much politics in the martial arts. It
> seems like there is really politics money wise in the area of karate
> and stuff like indonesian arts. Karate because there are so many very
> large organizations and indonesian arts since because of their rarity
> people think it is the cool thing to know them now.
Oh yeah. The Indonesian Arts are going to be one of the next *hot* items
once the public gets a chance to see the *real* Dutch/Indonesian martial
arts. Thus far the public has pretty much only seen kenpo called KTS and
PSS. There is more than one reason, but most of the blame is on Paladin
Press for openly and furiously promoting poseurs.
> There are very few
> authentic teachers though so everyone wants to claim their certificates
> for this and that. My instructor didnt want to do a video for paladin
> press because first off he doesnt feel the art is his to "sell" and
> take advantage of and secondly because he didnt want people to be able
> to steal some of the techniques and claim they always had them in their
> system.
Michael Janich and Joseph Simonet admitted in print that they had poured
over the only video footage of kuntao and silat available (which was what I
gave Janich while he was with Paladin Press ~ and what they had shot of me)
and developed Joe Simonet's personal style. Mr. Ingram knew what happened
there at Paladin. Michael Janich is quite well known for stealing other's
intelletual property. A knifemaker in Las Vegas made quite a stink about it
too.
> People will do that and then go make videos and get money off
> of you.
Yep! I can think of a couple right off the top of my head, to-wit: Michael
Janich, Bob Orlando and Joe Simonet.
> I also find it strange since Bob Orlando is a Christian or
> Jesuit or whatever and yet he is doing a lot of wrongful things without
> asking or getting permission from anyone.
And worse yet, he has never admitted to his nefarious activities nor asked
for forgiveness. Think it may be the Jesuit training.
> I saw a few of his videos
> and there are very few even similarities to silat or kuntao.
No, he picked up some tricks from George Morin and went shamelessly to
Paladin Press with books and videos before he bothered to practice and learn
KTS.
> Sure he is
> pretty good at what he does but I just saw some of his stuff and
> thought, that doesnt go with that technique, thats like two completely
> different systems.
Like Simonet, they never actually learned the arts they sold. Both are OK
martial artists, but both appear disconnected and queer because they picked
pieces up rather than actually learning the systems they have shamelessly
claimed expertise in and sold to the Public.
> I also saw a technique were he counters a hard
> handshake and he does a huge swing completely under the guys armpits.
> Silat techniques are never that large or difficult. We have one at my
> school from a hand shake and one technique you can do from the
> handshake is just grab his wrist with your other hand and kneel while
> pointing his hand towards the triangle of his body and it takes him
> down.
Duh! It is only obvious to those who have had some training with the
Dutch/Indos. They use a whole different set of principles to make things
happen.
> I always wondered where he got that "indonesian" uniform he
> wears on his videos too.
>
Some wondered worse things than that my Friend. Boob Orlando is the brunt
of some pretty bizarre questions around Denver.
The only really sad thing about all this is that they upset Aunt Joyce while
they knew Willem was out of town. I'm almost ecstatic that the Joint
Terrorism Task Force would tip their hand in such an obvious manner and
expose way more information than they should have. It is that arrogance of
power getting to them. You'll notice that all this came right after they
were exposed on line and LIBERATOR, et al disappeared.
www.jointterrorismtaskforce.com www.docslaw.com/Conspiracy.htm
Have an inspiring day,
Steve Gartin
www.kuntaosilat.com
Steve Gartin
Steve Gartin
Yeah, good idea ~ I followed a few of your posts . . . you have nothing of
any value to contribute to any discussion.
Say gunite dick,
Steve :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
www.kuntaosilat.com
Chas
> How about if I just toss you into the kill file so that I can go on
> with a martial arts discussion?
It'll make your butt hurt.
Chas
T
> On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:46:35 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <st...@thunderrock.net> wrote:
>
> How about if I just toss you into the kill file so that I can go on
> with a martial arts discussion?
>
> Strider
That would be an excellent idea.
Steve Gartin
news:MYkke.133992$hu5....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Yeah, I've followed your posts too. What a twit.
Have you ever made an intelligent comment in your life?
Say gunite, DickLess . . .
Steve :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Chas
>> How about if I just toss you into the kill file so that I can go on
>> with a martial arts discussion?
Yeah; and about the only toss he's ever going to get on a kuntaoer.
And what's with informing someone that they're going in your killfile
anyway?
That's like a Stupid warning- 'Dumbfuck Crossing', 'No Idea Zone', 'Slow
Down'.
Maybe he could just participate in the cartoon/movie/sportsfan threads- or
perhaps more stupid quips instead of substance. It's easy to ignore anything
beyond your intellectual capacity- in fact, it's the very definition of it.
Chas
Mark Goldberg
Sorry to hear of the sicko's coming between you all, once again.
The danger for an old immigrant from Indonesia, is his rememberance of
the very deadly government from where he came, and how much trouble they
made for his whole family there.
I remember how much trouble it made for you and Steve, some years ago.
May it pass without causing harm this time around.
mark
Mark Goldberg
> "scottsummers" <scottsu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1116827254.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>That is weird. What kind of sensitive information could they even get
>>on you?
>
>
> They threatened Uncle Bill ~ not me.
I remember how much difficulty became of those intrusions a few years
ago, Steve.
I hope this doesn't rip across the landscape as it did for you all
back then.
May you have Strength and fortitude my man.
Mark
T
> "T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote
>
>>>How about if I just toss you into the kill file so that I can go on
>>>with a martial arts discussion?
>>
>>That would be an excellent idea.
>
>
> Yeah; and about the only toss he's ever going to get on a kuntaoer.
Jack Dempsey's baby idea would probably work as well on you guys as on
anyone.
> And what's with informing someone that they're going in your killfile
> anyway?
It's another - nicer - way of saying shut the fuck up you tedious
obsessive-compulsive off-topic delusional asshole.
> Maybe he could just participate in the cartoon/movie/sportsfan threads- or
> perhaps more stupid quips instead of substance.
Or Gartin's delusions, leavened only by commerce?
> It's easy to ignore anything beyond your intellectual capacity-
Easier still to killfile him.
> in fact, it's the very definition of it.
No it isn't.
Steve Gartin
"Mark Goldberg" <msgol...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:2Qlke.14416$yx....@fe08.lga...
> Chas wrote:
>
> > "GreenDistantStar" <greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote
> >
> >>Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
> >>Shouldn't it be something like a 'parade' of 'faggots'....or maybe a
> >>'phalanx' ?
> >>Suggestions, please.
> >
> >
> > Was that the most interesting part of the post for you?
> > A man's family gets threatened- if not extorted- with dire revelations
of
> > their privacies, over the exposure of a supposed fighting man, and the
best
> > you can come up with is some quip about fags?
> > Is it so trivial to you that you'd hijack the thread to some sort of
> > discussion about what to call a herd of fruiters?
> > You find this *funny*?
> >
> > Chas
> >
> >
> Sorry to hear of the sicko's coming between you all, once again.
> The danger for an old immigrant from Indonesia, is his rememberance of
> the very deadly government from where he came, and how much trouble they
> made for his whole family there.
>
Yeah, Uncle is quite agitated over this. The last time Holstlaw, Estep,
Clyman and Maleri 'visited' him they threatened to deport him if he didn't
quit teaching me 'how to defeat the police.'
> I remember how much trouble it made for you and Steve, some years ago.
> May it pass without causing harm this time around.
>
> mark
Appreciate the positive thoughts Mark. I think the harm, this time, is
going to be on the other side. We'll see.
Have a bright, inspiring day,
Steve
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Chas
> Sorry to hear of the sicko's coming between you all, once again.
> The danger for an old immigrant from Indonesia, is his rememberance of the
> very deadly government from where he came, and how much trouble they
> made for his whole family there.
He was in *two* camps under Sukarno- in some ways worse than the Japanese
camp in Thailand. He lost family to the Kempei Tai, more family and treasure
to the Despot.
Joyce's experiences much the same.
They came here forty-five years ago, and the first thing the Government
agents did to threaten them was 'deportation without cause'- the second is
defamation by exposure of privacy.
And, on behalf of Bob Orlando????
What the fuck's up with that?
> I remember how much trouble it made for you and Steve, some years ago. May
> it pass without causing harm this time around.
This is the same stuff- unbroken; ongoing.
The commonality is our exposure of the truth and their reaction to being
presented in public for what they'd just as soon remained clandestine.
Thanks for your kind thoughts my friend.
Chas
Steve Gartin
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> > "scottsummers" <scottsu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1116827254.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>That is weird. What kind of sensitive information could they even get
> >>on you?
> >
> >
> > They threatened Uncle Bill ~ not me.
>
> I remember how much difficulty became of those intrusions a few years
> ago, Steve.
>
chance to. :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I hope this doesn't rip across the landscape as it did for you all
> back then.
We didn't know who *they* were back then.
Made it difficult to fight shadows and strawmen.
Now I have my FBI FOIA, my Denver Spy Files, and reams and tomes of
Discovery. Now we know how Bob Orlando / Michael Janich / Joe Simonet /
Roger Brockman and Kelly Worden are connected with all the government
Actors.
Now we know who the Joint Terrorism Task Force is and where their
headquarters is.
Much of what happened before was disasterous because of the clandestine
nature of their nefarious conspiracy.
They don't have that advantage this time.
> May you have Strength and fortitude my man.
>
> Mark
Thanks! YHVH is my Strength and Shield ~ they are destined to lose.
Happy thoughts,
Steve {Free} Gartin
www.heartlessmonkey.com
Chas
> It's another - nicer - way of saying shut the fuck up you tedious
> obsessive-compulsive off-topic delusional asshole.
And my response a more civil way of saying; if you had any idea what you're
talking about, you'd have some idea of what you're talking about.
So far, no cigar.
>> Maybe he could just participate in the cartoon/movie/sportsfan threads-
>> or perhaps more stupid quips instead of substance.
> Or Gartin's delusions, leavened only by commerce?
Threatening Joyce and Willem isn't a delusion, missy.
Those wonderful old folks didn't have anything coming from the Feds, or from
Bob Orlando for that matter.
And, what if it is 'commerce'?
It was important enough for Orlando to steal the logo; to jump in front of
the Founder, to present his own Kempo as something entirely different- for
money and no other reason.
Why should Willem's treasure be stolen unchallenged? Why should his elder
years be strait- for Bob Orlando's benefit; or Mike Janich, or Joe Simonet?
What price did any of them pay to steal our reputation/credibility and
arrogate it to themselves?
>> It's easy to ignore anything beyond your intellectual capacity-
> Easier still to killfile him.
Well; try to do it quietly, as contrasted with wasting your precious
bandwidth. It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and moaning to cover
up something you can't deal with- very feminine on both your parts.
With you, it's almost excusable- no one expects you to be any different. It
just makes him look like a bitch.
No offense, Ma'am.
Chas
Shuurai
GreenDistantStar wrote:
> "Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> news:1192k95...@corp.supernews.com...
> clipped
>
> >Bring it on! Send your worst first you gaggle of faggots.
>
> Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
The whole line sounds like something Dr Seuss would say...
Strider
Strider
T
How refreshing.
> Why should Willem's treasure be stolen unchallenged? Why should his elder
> years be strait- for Bob Orlando's benefit; or Mike Janich, or Joe Simonet?
> What price did any of them pay to steal our reputation/credibility and
> arrogate it to themselves?
Well, you complain about them on a usenet newsgroup, surely that's
punishment enough.
For someone who brags about how effective KTS is, you guys seem to have
a lot of identifiable and vulnerable enemies running around and causing
you grief. Maybe you should try law school instead. Or business
school. Or....
> Well; try to do it quietly, as contrasted with wasting your precious
> bandwidth.
I might be able to look up the date I killfiled Gartin; care to venture
a guess?
> It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and moaning to cover
> up something you can't deal with-
Not really, no; more like tuning a radio to reduce static.
> very feminine on both your parts.
In the sense that intelligent people don't waste time on such noise,
yeah. ;-)
> With you, it's almost excusable- no one expects you to be any different. It
> just makes him look like a bitch.
> No offense, Ma'am.
None taken, though I disagree that intolerance for tedious whining is
feminine, except as noted above that sensible behavior in general is
more readily attributed to women.
The Gist
ok, let me get this straight: you are being targetted by a paramilitary
task force because of ,uhmm, something?(this is not clear to me)
And when people ask what the hell you are talking about you point them
to a page of your own design at jointterrorismtaskforce.com/ which does
not clearly state anything.
Just for my own amusement/curiosity could you summarise in a few
snetences why you are being persecuted by this shadowy and secretive
goverment task force(!?!?).
Steve Gartin
news:Tiqke.947$Z%5....@fe13.highwinds-media.lga...
> [schizophrenic fantasy snipped]
>
{stupidity snipped}
Don't worry about it kid ~ the folks who need to know do, and you're
probably a product of pubic schools, so you never will.
It's a waste of time trying to explain real life to you ~ you can go back to
your video games now; you might even catch a movie or two.
OTOH, if you're brighter than you appear, everything you need to know is
posted or on-line.
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Chas
> [schizophrenic fantasy snipped]
ahh; the Solsynitzyn Gambit.
> ok, let me get this straight: you are being targetted by a paramilitary
> task force because of ,uhmm, something?(this is not clear to me)
Nothing 'para' about it.
> And when people ask what the hell you are talking about you point them to
> a page of your own design at jointterrorismtaskforce.com/ which does not
> clearly state anything.
What part of it is unclear to you?
It's their own material.
> Just for my own amusement/curiosity could you summarise in a few snetences
> why you are being persecuted by this shadowy and secretive goverment task
> force(!?!?).
Sure.
They're being sued in Federal court and need to shut it down.
In fact, they're so worried about it, they found it necessary to go after
the witnesses as well.
Clear enough for you?
Chas
Shuurai
> > And when people ask what the hell you are talking about you
> > point them to a page of your own design at
> > jointterrorismtaskforce.com/ which does not clearly state anything.
>
> What part of it is unclear to you?
> It's their own material.
Why is they?? It's a bunch of rambling conspiracy articles from
people nobody ever heard of.
> > Just for my own amusement/curiosity could you summarise in a
> > few snetences why you are being persecuted by this shadowy and
> > secretive goverment task force(!?!?).
>
> Sure.
> They're being sued in Federal court and need to shut it down.
> In fact, they're so worried about it, they found it necessary
> to go after the witnesses as well.
> Clear enough for you?
And you're saying that the *best* way these guys could think of to
shut down a suit is to post nasty things about you guys on RMA?
Is this task force made up of tweleve year olds?
Oliver T.
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>Good evening all,
>
>Uncle Bill just returned from the Grand Opening of Alexis Ochinikov's school
>in Atlanta, Georgia to a frantic wife.
>
>He called me immediately to inform me that he and his Family had been
>threatened by some 'Ex-Student of Steve Gartin and Willem de Thouars' to
>expose Uncle Bill's 'dirty laundry' on the Yahoo Groups and Rec.Martial-Arts
>if he did not stop me, Steve Gartin, from exposing Bob Orlando as an
>imposter and Roger Brockman as an inept incompetent buffoon.
Hello again Steve,
You're an interesting character, in a train-wreck-fascinating way.
This series of postings reminds me of Newsweek's attempt to deflect
blame from their Quran article, as if they were merely innocent
conduits and blameless for any repercussion. Here you lament, and
rightly so, an old man and woman you care about being threatened,
yet skirt an issue that must be blatantly obvious to anyone else
reading: namely that without you and Chas rabble-rousing on the
Internet they wouldn't have these worries. With friends like you they
can enjoy a steady supply of enemies and troubles.
"Auntie Joyce" calls the very law enforcement people that you are
constantly savaging on the net, yet thanks to you she can't have much
expectation of friendly interest on their part. In the very same post
you call them a bunch of fags! How inclined are they going to be to
help in any way, regardless of the accuracy of any of your charges? It
strains credulity that Willem de Thouars has any dirtier laundry than
you, and Chas, though you seem to be by far the primary instigator in
inviting hordes of government agents to bear their unwanted attention
on him. How thoughtful of you. He, or at the very least his wife,
doesn't seem to enjoy the constant battle against conspiracies real or
imagined that seems the focus of your existence. Auntie Joyce was
scared, apparently for her life or the lives of her family, because of
*your* direct action. You sprout the Boner of Righteous
Indignation(tm) when you see the name Bob Orlando. You are 100% to
blame for the fear the woman felt, yet you take no responsibility for
this, and act like an outraged bystander who was minding his own
business and now must act in the name of truth and justice. Wrong. You
started this, yet I don't see any post from you in which you
acknowledge your responsibility. Did Willem tell you to post anti-Bob
anti-law enforcement prattle? I doubt it. After seeing his elderly
wife scared, did he tell you to get online and challenge local law
enforcement to "bring it on"? I'd really like to hear Willem's answer
to that, because I rather doubt it.
While I don't believe snipers will attack the De Thouars family
(except maybe you, if you're considered family ;) ), what if the poor
woman's health suffers from the stress? What if she has a heart
attack? That would be on your head. To be blunt, if you love these
people the way you say you do, the very least you could do is shut
the hell up for once and not drag them into the cesspool of your
endless tilting at windmills. Surely they deserve better than having
you torment them in old age, don't you think?
Steve Gartin
What an unexpected honor to see you slither out from under your covert
covering:
"Oliver T." <oli...@ftconsulting.com> wrote in message
news:4292962e...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
> On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:46:35 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>
> >Good evening all,
> >
> >Uncle Bill just returned from the Grand Opening of Alexis Ochinikov's
school
> >in Atlanta, Georgia to a frantic wife.
> >
> >He called me immediately to inform me that he and his Family had been
> >threatened by some 'Ex-Student of Steve Gartin and Willem de Thouars' to
> >expose Uncle Bill's 'dirty laundry' on the Yahoo Groups and
Rec.Martial-Arts
> >if he did not stop me, Steve Gartin, from exposing Bob Orlando as an
> >imposter and Roger Brockman as an inept incompetent buffoon.
>
_______________________________
> Hello again Steve,
>
> You're an interesting character, in a train-wreck-fascinating way.
Ah, you're jest being . . .ingenious ~ and fooling only the fools.
> This series of postings reminds me of Newsweek's attempt to deflect
> blame from their Quran article, as if they were merely innocent
> conduits and blameless for any repercussion. Here you lament, and
> rightly so, an old man and woman you care about being threatened,
> yet skirt an issue that must be blatantly obvious to anyone else
> reading: namely that without you and Chas rabble-rousing on the
> Internet they wouldn't have these worries. With friends like you they
> can enjoy a steady supply of enemies and troubles.
>
Or WormTongues and SoothSayers . . . Is there a choice to be made?
> "Auntie Joyce" calls the very law enforcement people that you are
> constantly savaging on the net, yet thanks to you she can't have much
> expectation of friendly interest on their part.
But then, Oliver T, no one except criminals and covert government operatives
have ever had much of an expectation of interest . . . except those of us
who once believed in Truth, Justice and the American Way. PollyAnaIsh
though we were. ;-(>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The very knaves and wankers we *savage* on the net are the ostensible
gatekeepers of Justice ~ old folks still believe those myths.
> In the very same post
> you call them a bunch of fags! How inclined are they going to be to
> help in any way, regardless of the accuracy of any of your charges?
And you have a problem with the Truth? Of course you do, silly me.
Yes, all evidence presently points to a cabal of homosexuals gaggled
together to do crime and cover each other's collective rectal regions. You
have obviously NOT done your homework again before engaging in repartee.
You are not a very intelligent 'person'? Oliver T.
It
> strains credulity that Willem de Thouars has any dirtier laundry than
> you, and Chas, though you seem to be by far the primary instigator in
> inviting hordes of government agents to bear their unwanted attention
> on him.
What you fail to understand is that Willem *was* a muslim when I first met
him. He garnered government attention long before I did.
Willem's purported 'dirty laundry' is an integral part of his Book that is
being edited and prepared for publication even as we speak. You, however,
haven't the intellect to contemplate such a work, nor will you probably
bother to buy it before you slither from hiding to naysay again, some day.
Pardon me if I am incredulous that one could be so ignorant of the facts as
you and still bother to post in public. Aren't you embarrassed in the
least?
> How thoughtful of you. He, or at the very least his wife,
> doesn't seem to enjoy the constant battle against conspiracies real or
> imagined that seems the focus of your existence. Auntie Joyce was
> scared, apparently for her life or the lives of her family, because of
> *your* direct action.
No, not quite. Your evaluation of the evidence always evinces certain
predicatable characterists that causes me to question whether you might also
be an agent provocateur. You always skew the facts in a manner that
indicates that you may well have a taxpayer paid agenda. I'd entertain any
explanation you may offer, Officer, her Comrade.
> You sprout the Boner of Righteous
> Indignation(tm) when you see the name Bob Orlando.
No, Bob Orlando is of no consequence UNTIL he claims to do what I do.
You have no clue. You have not bothered to investigate . . . still ~ to
this date. You are totally ignorant of what KTS is. After this post, I'll
relegate you to the 'T'@asshole.com killfile. You're either an idiot or a
provocateur.
> You are 100% to
> blame for the fear the woman felt, yet you take no responsibility for
> this, and act like an outraged bystander who was minding his own
> business and now must act in the name of truth and justice.
Once again, you're an idiot. I *AM* the only person on this NG who knows
what is going on and exposes LIE-Berator, et al every time they expose their
collective pestulant heads. I assume FULL responsibility. . . 100%
> Wrong. You
> started this, yet I don't see any post from you in which you
> acknowledge your responsibility.
In case you missed it, I take full responsibility for exposing Bob Orlando,
Michael Janich, Joe Simonet and Paladin Press . . . you saw it here Folks.
> Did Willem tell you to post anti-Bob
> anti-law enforcement prattle? I doubt it. After seeing his elderly
> wife scared, did he tell you to get online and challenge local law
> enforcement to "bring it on"?
No, that was all of my own volition. Got a problem with that?
I'd really like to hear Willem's answer
> to that, because I rather doubt it.
>
Call him. Others do.
> While I don't believe snipers will attack the De Thouars family
> (except maybe you, if you're considered family ;) ), what if the poor
> woman's health suffers from the stress? What if she has a heart
> attack? That would be on your head.
Why don't you ask Bob Orlando and Roger Brockman about that one? You are a
complete idiot Olliver T. You key in on some of the most idiotic
assumptions! You cannot possibly be that stupid. You MUST be an agent
provocateur. No one could make such outlandish assumptions and publish them
if they were not working for the government.
Uncle Bill and Aunt Joyce gave me the go ahead to *expose* the *dirty
laundry* they have been threatened with. I'll do that in the Book and on
our private groups, not here. It's not the information, it's the threats
that bother them . . . and the threats come from Bob Orlando and Roger
Brockman and their cohorts in the Joint Terrorism Task Farce.
> To be blunt, if you love these
> people the way you say you do, the very least you could do is shut
> the hell up for once and not drag them into the cesspool of your
> endless tilting at windmills.
You may not have noticed that I don't start these debacles ~ but no one,
including you can refute even the most fundamental point with fact. I
understand DisInformation and I'm not alone, Agent.
> Surely they deserve better than having
> you torment them in old age, don't you think?
>
Do you suppose that Bob Orlando, Don Miller, Roger Brockman, Joe Simonet,
Michael Janich or Sam Edwards is going to support them in their old age.
I'm all they got fool. I take that responsibility seriously.
What is your stake in all this??????????????????????????
Why do you waste your time, effort, bandwidth and interest in even trying to
bullshit me and others?
Seriously, tell me why you get involved in something that has absolutely
NOTHING to do with you? You're a friggin' copsucker, ain't you?
Awaiting your reply,
Steve Gartin
www.docslaw.com/images/FBIWillem.pdf
www.docslaw.com/Conspiracy.htm
Steve Gartin
news:1116900373.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
That may very well be the most intelligent thing I have EVER heard you say!
Steve
www.docslaw.com/images/RICO.pdf
Steve Gartin
"T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote in message
news:zYlke.126526$AE6....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Did your moma have any children that survived the brain damage?
Jest checking . . . .
GreenDistantStar
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
news:1195hc6...@corp.supernews.com...
The point remains, Steve. What purpose would it serve for them to do this,
when there are so many better and more effective means of causing you grief,
if indeed anyone is so inclined?
Is it *really* likely some covert operatives are posting here, on a public
newsgroup, for all the world to see? That's about as overt as it gets!
Libby makes similar, wacky observations here all the time, accusing people
of being someone that they are not.
I KNOW Libby is wrong when he accuses Fraser of being Dawn, or Virginia etc,
because I KNOW Fraser personally, and there are others here who are in
similar situations.
So let's be a bit cautious about seeing phantoms where none may exist, eh?
Cheers
GDS
GreenDistantStar
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> Good evening Mr. Distance,
Good evening Mr Gartin,
>> My first reaction was that is was a prank call from Libby, and it still
>> might be.
>>
> Yes!
Libby is a sick young man who does not take his medication. He's not a
group, unless you count multiple personality disorder. He's certainly not a
group of covert operatives...by definition...public newsgroups are about the
last places such persons would be found. But I doubt he has the balls to
call you or anyone else you know...for all his blather he's just another
keyboard twit.
>> Joint Terrorism Taskforce?
>>
>> Who the hell is that?
>>
>
> Estep, 49, would lead the Friends and Associates Team.
clipped
Perhaps so, but I don't think there's any evidence that anyone here is
plotting against you. Libby just winds you and Chas up because he's one of
life's losers. Pay him no heed, practice and teach your art and enjoy life.
It's too short to be wasted on the Liberators of this world.
Best to you now
GDS
Chas
> Why is they?? It's a bunch of rambling conspiracy articles from
> people nobody ever heard of.
You never even heard of the JTTF itself until Gartin brought it to your
attention.
Do you think they don't exist? Do you think they're not out on the net
trawling?
Did you even read the newspaper accounts, or the official directive about
avoiding suit, or anything about the other people, like Philp, that they've
treated similarly?
Do you understand that the Denver Police Spy Files were to feed the JTTF
unvetted information? Do you understand that the ACLU won an action against
them for it, and now the suit is national?
> And you're saying that the *best* way these guys could think of to
> shut down a suit is to post nasty things about you guys on RMA?
Oh no- this is only one of the things they've done, and about the only venue
public enough to answer them directly.
They just offered a settlement with me- in the Federal Case. The offer was
only good if I stop publicizing their misdeeds. In fact, they wanted me to
agree to a confidentiality agreement that would penalize me for telling the
truth, and disallow me from witnessing or participating in suits from others
to whom they've done much the same thing.
I'm not in the mood to leave them alone.
And I hope they don't like it.
Chas
Chas
>......Here you lament, and
> rightly so, an old man and woman you care about being threatened,
> yet skirt an issue that must be blatantly obvious to anyone else
> reading: namely that without you and Chas rabble-rousing on the
> Internet they wouldn't have these worries. With friends like you they
> can enjoy a steady supply of enemies and troubles.
No, actually, they're terribly embarrassed by Orlando, and Simonet, and
Janich- and their decision to expose them for the frauds they are.
You don't remember when Willem was approached and threatened by the JTTF,
looking for some sort of dirt they could use on us. He made a video, since
recanted, at the direction of Roger Brockman and the FBI, that accuses us of
everything from anti-semitism to Mopery with intent to Gawk.
> "Auntie Joyce" calls the very law enforcement people that you are
> constantly savaging on the net, yet thanks to you she can't have much
> expectation of friendly interest on their part.
They're not in the business of 'being friendly'- it's called 'equal
protection of the Law'; look it up.
> In the very same post
> you call them a bunch of fags! How inclined are they going to be to
> help in any way, regardless of the accuracy of any of your charges?
The charges being accurate, and provable, and against they themselves, we
don't expect any 'help'. We already went to the FBI for help- Mark Hostlaw
lied to us for a year telling us that he'd initiated a civil rights
complaint with their office specialist.
Little did we know that his *partner* was the guy we were complaining about-
quelle surprise.
> It
> strains credulity that Willem de Thouars has any dirtier laundry than
> you, and Chas, though you seem to be by far the primary instigator in
> inviting hordes of government agents to bear their unwanted attention
> on him.
Nah; he was on the 'watch list' long before that. As an Indonesian muslim,
he gets choused up everytime he has to fly or whatever- nothing to do with
us.
> How thoughtful of you. He, or at the very least his wife,
> doesn't seem to enjoy the constant battle against conspiracies real or
> imagined that seems the focus of your existence.
She was bothered by the threats of violence from ambush- otherwise, she
would have invited them to get their ass' kicked. Joyce fights.
> Auntie Joyce was
> scared, apparently for her life or the lives of her family, because of
> *your* direct action.
You mean that if I see a street mugging and holler 'Thief, Thief', it's my
fault?
How droll.
> You sprout the Boner of Righteous
> Indignation(tm) when you see the name Bob Orlando.
Actually, I didn't care- until they asked me to.
You see, Bob jumped in front of Willem to be published. Paladin is just up
the road from us, and I've known them and the SOF guys for nearly thirty
years. Gartin and I paved the way for KTS/Serak until shortstopped by
Janich. We gave him a ream of material and fifteen hours of tape under
editorial privilege- he bragged in BB that he shared it with Simonet and
that's what they formulated their own presentation from.
You agree with that editorial policy? or with the policy of advancing
poseurs over the Founders of the systems?
> ......Did Willem tell you to post anti-Bob
> anti-law enforcement prattle? I doubt it.
Don't- it makes you look like you're not paying attention.
Of course Willem told us about Bob, and asked us to do what he could not-
due to problems with English and with the mechanisms of the computer.
> After seeing his elderly
> wife scared, did he tell you to get online and challenge local law
> enforcement to "bring it on"? I'd really like to hear Willem's answer
> to that, because I rather doubt it.
Like Gartin said; call him, send him an e-mail. He's very approachable.
> While I don't believe snipers will attack the De Thouars family
> (except maybe you, if you're considered family ;) ), what if the poor
> woman's health suffers from the stress?
That's on the head of the people who stole from her, embarrassed her, and
threatened her- unless you believe that government is justified in
retaliating against you for dissent.
Is that your position?
> ......To be blunt, if you love these
> people the way you say you do, the very least you could do is shut
> the hell up for once and not drag them into the cesspool of your
> endless tilting at windmills.
You mean we ought to go along to get along; can't fight City Hall, knuckle
under and take the pipe?
Words you must live by, Ollie.
Chas
blesh
GreenDistantStar wrote:
> "Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> clipped
>
> >Bring it on! Send your worst first you gaggle of faggots.
>
> Is 'gaggle' the correct collective noun for 'faggots'?
>
> 'phalanx' ?
>
> Suggestions, please.
>
I think it's:
a flood of faggots
a legion of lesbians
and a floatilla of gorillas
I don't know what gorillas have to do with anything, but they seem as
random as this thread. ;)
Steve Gartin
"GreenDistantStar" <greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:mxGke.14128$E7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> news:1192rmd...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Good evening Mr. Distance,
>
> Good evening Mr Gartin,
>
> >> My first reaction was that is was a prank call from Libby, and it still
> >> might be.
> >>
> > Yes!
>
> Libby is a sick young man who does not take his medication. He's not a
> group, unless you count multiple personality disorder. He's certainly not
a
> group of covert operatives...by definition...public newsgroups are about
the
> last places such persons would be found. But I doubt he has the balls to
> call you or anyone else you know...for all his blather he's just another
> keyboard twit.
>
There is always that chance. I don't rule it *completely* out, but there is
sure mounting evidence that *he* is something else.
>
> >> Joint Terrorism Taskforce?
> >>
> >> Who the hell is that?
> >>
> >
> > Estep, 49, would lead the Friends and Associates Team.
>
> clipped
>
> Perhaps so, but I don't think there's any evidence that anyone here is
> plotting against you. Libby just winds you and Chas up because he's one of
> life's losers. Pay him no heed, practice and teach your art and enjoy
life.
>
> It's too short to be wasted on the Liberators of this world.
>
> Best to you now
>
> GDS
>
Hey, thanks! You'll note that *LIBBY* has not raised their head much
lately, and even then didn't pick on me much. :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm actually enjoying some real progress in several areas here lately.
Aside from occasional investigation and a little typing, I don't invest much
time in the OPERATION LIBERATORs of this world. Most people watch way more
TV than time I waste on those clowns. :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Besides, keyboardkombat is kinda' fun occasionally. . . . and if I'm right,
folks should know how easy it is to get roped into internet government
trawls . . . you *have noticed* the newsstories I've posted?
Have a most enjoyable day,
Steve Gartin
www.progovernment.com
Chas
> Libby is a sick young man who does not take his medication.
Proofs please.
Any administrative record will be sufficient-
>......He's not a group, unless you count multiple personality disorder.
And you know this, how?
> He's certainly not a group of covert operatives...by definition...public
> newsgroups are about the last places such persons would be found.
Actually, they admit quite openly that they trawl the net looking for all
sorts of malefactors-
You didn't read the material either, did you?
> But I doubt he has the balls to call you or anyone else you know...for all
> his blather he's just another keyboard twit.
Actually, he's called a couple of times now- and acted far more like a cop
than a nitnat.
> Perhaps so, but I don't think there's any evidence that anyone here is
> plotting against you.
You haven't read *any* of this, have you?
Look; this is all very local for us- the source of the difficulty is all
centered in Jefferson County Colorado, and particularly as regards their
Sheriff's Office.
The involving of the Federal agents was by Don Estep misusing his
association with the FBI/USMarshal through the JTTF to bring pressure to
bear in excess of what he could accomplish with false charges and civil
liberty abuses. By the time we became aware of the fraud, the FBI had
already screwed the pooch on Estep's word.
> Libby just winds you and Chas up because he's one of life's losers. Pay
> him no heed, practice and teach your art and enjoy life.
Tell the Jews to ignore him- tell them that his antics aren't offensive
enough to answer.
Tell me his death threats and promises to ambush my family and I are
inconsequential. I wouldn't let them get away with it just so somebody
watching might think I'd let them slide too.
Libby is the poster child for demented stalkers who finally let go and
attack- at the very least.
At the other end of the extreme, 'he' is another attack from the Defendants
to serious charges of malfeasance with a possibililty of a *huge* judgment
against them.
Good motive all round.
> It's too short to be wasted on the Liberators of this world.
Not talking to him-
talking *at* him and *to* you <g>
> Best to you now
You too, buddy.
--
Chas
http://www.warriorschest.com/
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/images/HMKAD.pdf
www.willemdethouars.com
Badger North
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>He called me immediately to inform me that he and his Family had been
>threatened by some 'Ex-Student of Steve Gartin and Willem de Thouars' to
>expose Uncle Bill's 'dirty laundry' on the Yahoo Groups and Rec.Martial-Arts
>if he did not stop me, Steve Gartin, from exposing Bob Orlando as an
>imposter and Roger Brockman as an inept incompetent buffoon.
Okay, so *why* does all this mean that it *must* be the feds? Why
couldn't it be Orlando? Or a student of Orlando? Or Brockman? Or
anybody in the Janich, Simonet et al. group? Or Libby (assuming he is
a he and not a task force)? Or just some random fuckhead lurker here
on RMA?
jest askin'
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements
Steve Gartin
Jest for kicks and grins:
Ring Shattered
E-Traffickers Arrested: Indian/Costa Rican/U.S. Cyber Criminal Alliances
Shut Down
APR 20--Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Karen P. Tandy
today announced the results of Operation "Cyber Chase", a year-long
Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) investigation that
targeted international Internet pharmaceutical traffickers operating in the
United States, India, Asia, Europe and the Caribbean. These e-traffickers
distributed drugs world-wide using "rogue" Internet pharmacies.
Pasted from <http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/>
From Carol & Richard Eustice,
Your Guide to Arthritis.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
OxyContin Abuse Might Make Obtaining The Drug A Real Pain!
OxyContin is one of the best-selling brand-name painkillers in the world, it
also however, has a widespread problem of abuse and misuse. OxyContin is one
of the narcotic analgesic medications (pain killers) prescribed for many
painful conditions, including many types of arthritis.
DEA Targets OxyContin Abuse:
A mere five years since it became FDA-approved, the drug is making
headlines. News reports have brought attention to the problems of OxyContin
abuse. The latest twist to the saga has the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency)
asking Purdue Pharma L.P. (the makers of the drug) to:
a.. Market the drug only to pain specialists
b.. Omit its claim that the drug is less subject to abuse than other
narcotics
c.. Reformulate the drug to limit OxyContin abuse potential
Such recommendations can be made by the DEA and FDA but Purdue Pharma cannot
be forced to comply.
Pasted from <http://arthritis.about.com/cs/analgesic/a/targetabuse.htm>
Mar 13 2004, 12:40 am
Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
From: linog...@aol.com (Linoge1961) - Find messages by this author
Date: 13 Mar 2004 05:39:58 GMT
Local: Sat,Mar 13 2004 12:39 am
Subject: CRAIG TITAS???????????????
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I MET A GUY WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE DONE TIME WITH TITUS IN A LUISIANA PRISON.
tHE
GUY HAS ALL KINDS OF STORIES ABOUT HIM AND STUFF. WAS TITUS IN PRISON COULD
THIS GUY REAALY HAVE BEEN WITH HIM.
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{Remember when LIBBY posted in all CAPS? ~ here they are as LINOGE}
Nov 20 2004, 1:29 pm
Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
From: linog...@aol.com (Linoge0983) - Find messages by this author
Date: 20 Nov 2004 18:29:13 GMT
Local: Sat,Nov 20 2004 1:29 pm
Subject: steroids in Jamica
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Can you buy steroids in Jamacian pharmacies the way you can in Mexico?
Thanks
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Jan 18, 9:38 am
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.hard
From: linoge0...@aol.com (Linoge0983) - Find messages by this author
Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:38:26 GMT
Local: Tues,Jan 18 2005 9:38 am
Subject: Withdrawl
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How long would one have to stay on approx 20 - 40 mg of oxycontin a day
before
you feel withdrawl? How long do you think it (the withdrawl) will last.
Thanks
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Feb 20 2003, 11:39 pm
Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
From: linog...@aol.com (Linoge1961) - Find messages by this author
Date: 21 Feb 2003 04:38:11 GMT
Local: Thurs,Feb 20 2003 11:38 pm
Subject: testosterone help please
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does anyone know if 1 testosterone is really anabolic androgenic or another
bogus ripoff
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Linoge0983
Dec 6 2004, 11:06 pm
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.hard
From: linog...@aol.com (Linoge0983) - Find messages by this author
Date: 07 Dec 2004 04:06:20 GMT
Local: Mon,Dec 6 2004 11:06 pm
Subject: what kind of dr to see for oxy script
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also any adive about how to sucessfully broach the subject /
thanks
durtro
Dec 7 2004, 10:58 am
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.hard
From: "durtro" <dur...@toke.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 7 Dec 2004 07:58:13 -0800
Local: Tues,Dec 7 2004 10:58 am
Subject: Re: what kind of dr to see for oxy script
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Linoge0983 wrote:
> also any adive about how to sucessfully broach the subject /
> thanks
there are crooked docs out there who will sell you a 'script. good luck
finding them.
just about the only way to get a regular supply of oxycontin is to have
a chronic pain problem that is documented by a pain specialist that
would be a referral from your regular doctor. my PCP writes for me,
but only at the behest of my Pain Doctor.
it takes two docs to agree on who gets the CII's in the USA, usually.
it's a safety catch.
[i don't use oxy, it's worthless shit to me]
are you already fucked up on oxy or are you just looking for the keys
to an unfulfilling hell?
-durt
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______________________________________________________________________
Here, you'll find stories about government agents doing EXACTLY what
*LIBERATOR* is doing here:
http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Civil_Rights/122302_archive_of_spy_files_stories.htm
______________________________________________________
Civil libertarians are demanding that Denver pull police detectives from a
federal anti-terrorism squad if they can't be audited for compliance with
the city's "spy files" pact.
"Given the FBI's policy of secrecy, the accountability that Denver promised
... can be achieved only if Denver withdraws from the" Joint Terrorism Task
Force, the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado wrote Mayor John
Hickenlooper and 13 Denver City Council members Wednesday.
The letter comes two years after the city settled a lawsuit protesting the
Denver Police Department's Intelligence Bureau spying on political
activists. Under the so-called spy files settlement, police now are
prohibited from such intelligence-gathering.
Since that deal, one of two Denver Intelligence Bureau detectives assigned
to the federal Joint Terrorism Task Force was involved in a surveillance
sweep with FBI agents last summer, questioning political activists about
possible plans to disrupt the major political party conventions or the
November election.
What the feds deemed as "pretext interviews" did not lead to any information
about criminal activity, FBI documents show.
The ACLU argues that the sweep was aimed to intimidate the activists rather
than garner information, and says Denver police broke the spy-files
agreement by taking part.
Following FBI policy, the Hickenlooper administration has refused to allow
its two JTTF detectives to be questioned by an outside auditor studying
compliance with the legal settlement. The department therefore "has no way
of actually knowing whether the two detectives are performing their duties
in compliance with the policy," an audit from October found.
City Attorney Cole Finegan would not comment specifically Wednesday on the
ACLU's call to yank the detectives from the task force. He said he plans to
meet with Police Chief Gerry Whitman "to review the relationship with the
FBI and determine what steps we can take."
Portland recently pulled its detectives from the federal task force partly
to comply with an Oregon law that, much like the spy-files agreement,
prohibits police from gathering intelligence on peaceful protesters on the
basis of their political views.
Denver City Council President Elbra Wedgeworth - who helped broker spy-files
negotiations between the city and the ACLU - said a lack of oversight of
Denver's terrorism detectives "is something I'm concerned about and looking
into."
Pasted from <http://denverpost.com/news/ci_2744219>
______________________________________________________________________
DEA uses phony figures about interdiction campaign
According to Knight Ridder Newspapers and other wire service reports from
early-February, The Drug Enforcement Administration used phony figures to
tout the success of a 36-nation "major takedown" of drug traffickers in the
Caribbean and Latin America last fall.
DEA's scorecard on "Operation Liberator" or "Libertador" reported 2,876
arrests, but a Knight Ridder investigation found that agency officials have
no evidence to support hundreds of them. Hundreds more were routine busts
for marijuana possession, and some drug eradication figures are
double-counts of a State Department program to burn marijuana plants. And
while DEA said $30.2 million in criminal assets was seized during the
operation, $30 million of that was confiscated four weeks before the
operation began.
The DEA official who masterminded the exercise - since promoted to head
DEA's international operations - admits some discrepancies but says the
international cooperation that Liberator promoted is what counts. If the
DEA's official tallies are generally as unreliable as Libertador's, however,
the public is likely either to overestimate the drug war's progress or grow
cynical about America's very difficult multibillion-dollar narcotics
enforcement enterprise.
Certainly, it's difficult to tell what happened during the operation,
described as a "tremendous success" by its leader, Michael S. Vigil, then
head of DEA's regional office in San Juan. Operation Liberator, the fourth
U.S.-led regional drug crackdown since 1998, intended to engage U.S.,
Caribbean and Latin drug authorities simultaneously in what DEA called "an
attempt to dismantle top-echelon traffickers in the region."
However, DEA's internal documents and interviews with drug agents and
officials from Libertador's participating countries show that:
a.. The DEA could not account for 375 of the 2,876 arrests attributed to
Libertador. For most of the rest, it simply accepted whatever number
participating countries reported.
b.. The largest number of arrests - 996 - were in Jamaica, where
authorities said most of them were for misdemeanor marijuana possession.
c.. Much of the marijuana interdiction credited to Libertador consisted of
plants that had been burned in Jamaica and already counted as part of the
State Department's "Operation Buccaneer," which has been under way since
1982.
d.. No one cared much about drug-intelligence gathering. The DEA did not,
as a rule, ask for the names of those arrested, the outcomes of their cases
or what happened to their drugs and cash.
DEA spokesman Michael Chapman reportedly said that his agency saw no
problems with Libertador or its operations accounting system. "Everything
was done properly and above board," he said after discussing Knight Ridder's
findings with DEA Administrator Donnie Marshall. Marshall declined to be
interviewed about Libertador, Chapman said.
While unable to confirm the arrest figures he offered initially, Chapman
said his agency would "stick by the reported arrests, because those were the
numbers that were called in" by foreign law-enforcement officials.
Now there's a novel idea certainly applicable for figuring annual income
taxes: just ask taxpayers to mail in some good-sounding numbers, and then
relax. Don't worry, be happy, the DEA and IRS are on the way.
Source: various wire service reports including Knight Ridder
Pasted from <http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/23/23005.html>
__________________________________________________
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/staffing.htm
And now: The PunchLine: http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/major/liberator.html
__________________________________________________
One could propose that a poor, homeless schitzo working from a dumbster
behind Wendy's could devise all these screen names and endlessly search the
news groups for drugs and doctors who prescribe them. One might even
postulate that it is pure accident that people are getting busted by various
government coloured copsuckers on the very issues that *LIBBY* focuses on as
'LINOGE.' But a reasonable person might also go to google groups and follow
some of LIBBY's numerous screen names around and find a pattern emerge.
Have a bright, inspiring day,
Steve Gartin
Chas
>> Suggestions, please.
> a flood of faggots
a mince of faggots
> a legion of lesbians
a glower of lesbians
Chas
Chas
> Okay, so *why* does all this mean that it *must* be the feds? Why
> couldn't it be Orlando? Or a student of Orlando? Or Brockman?
Well, you must understand that Brockman was a tool for the JTTF- he's the
one that directed the denunciation video that came out with the
Sigman/Miller vid from Atlanta- you may remember. The motivation for the vid
was Estep/Clyman/Hostlaw and trying to cast Gartin and I as some sort of
white supremist, Christian Identity domestic terrorists. That was the source
for the ADL thingie on their 'Watch' page.
His wife, Kathleen, was the spigot for Sherman and Howard lawfirm that
happens to represent some of the Respondents as well- gee; what a
coincidence.
> Or
> anybody in the Janich, Simonet et al. group?
Same guys- you'll remember that the NWest Mafia was heavily into
law-enforcement wannabeeism.
> Or Libby (assuming he is
> a he and not a task force)?
You're postulating a mental case with unlimited access to good technology
and the time to do this at all hours, from multiple terminals.
No more far-fetched than taking 'him' as a task-force, the existance of
which they've already admitted.
> Or just some random fuckhead lurker here
> on RMA?
That's cool too-
if it's not a government plot, it'll do to expose one.
Chas
T
> "Badger North" <young_...@REEEMOVEhotmail.com> wrote
>
>>Okay, so *why* does all this mean that it *must* be the feds? Why
>>couldn't it be Orlando? Or a student of Orlando? Or Brockman?
>
>
> Well, you must understand that Brockman
male
> was a tool for the JTTF- he's the
> one that directed the denunciation video that came out with the
> Sigman/Miller vid from Atlanta- you may remember. The motivation for the vid
> was Estep/Clyman/Hostlaw
male, male, male
> and trying to cast Gartin and I as some sort of
> white supremist, Christian Identity domestic terrorists. That was the source
> for the ADL thingie on their 'Watch' page.
> His wife, Kathleen, was the spigot for Sherman and Howard lawfirm that
> happens to represent some of the Respondents as well- gee; what a
> coincidence.
>
>
>>Or
>>anybody in the Janich, Simonet et al. group?
male, male
>
> Same guys-
Steve Gartin
news:HvydnZcbC6G...@comcast.com...
> "GreenDistantStar" <greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote
> > Libby is a sick young man who does not take his medication.
>
> Proofs please.
> Any administrative record will be sufficient-
>
> >......He's not a group, unless you count multiple personality disorder.
>
> And you know this, how?
>
> > He's certainly not a group of covert operatives...by definition...public
> > newsgroups are about the last places such persons would be found.
>
graveyard at the AllNightPublicLibrary (tm) last night? Only two posts but
both were cut & pastes at about 1:20 AM.
___________________________________
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From: "GARTINsux" <spy.e...@linuxmail.org>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: LIBERATOR is GAY
Date: 24 May 2005 01:20:17 -0700
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Steve Gartin wrote:
> "LUBERATOR" <badg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1116802706.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Steve Gartin wrote:
> >
> > > You have no idea what joy and justification that provides for me.
> > Once I
> > > discovered their *cover* it became a bit of a passion for me.
> >
> > I think that the point is this: they have ventured into the public
> > domain, but they do not understand the properties of a domain which
> > extends beyond their usual sphere of control.
> > The result is that they expose themselves, actually in several
ways.
> >
> > Some of us observers are taking careful note of what we observe.
> >
> Unfortunately, I had to be a tad overt in order to shock the RMA
regulars
> out of denial and the wankers have now run for cover like the
cockroaches
> and vermin they are.
>
> They'll be back, like their vermin counterparts, and will probably
adapt to
> the pesticides. But now, any cognizant observer will understand
their modus
> operandi, mission and rules of engagement. Their impotence in an
> intellectual environment will probably always present unmistakable
clues.
>
> It is deplorable that the People's TAXmoney is being spent in such a
> dispicable, indiscreet and inappropriate manner. Perhaps
accountability
> will return to the roost with the chickens.
>
> Eyes wide open,
>
> Steve {Free} Gartin
WE're right here, all 20 of us Gartin, want us to make your head like a
punching pulpit like we did on the first night?
You little fake boy. Keep talking the pictures of you all beat up &
missing teeth are gonna get posted.
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From: "GARTINsux" <spy.e...@linuxmail.org>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: LIBERATOR is GAY
Date: 24 May 2005 01:17:16 -0700
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WE're right here, all 20 of us Gartin, want us to make your head like a
punching pulpit like we did on the first night?
You little fake boy. Keep talking the pictures of you all beat up &
missing teeth are gonna get posted.
LUBERATOR wrote:
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> > They'll be back, like their vermin counterparts, and will probably
> adapt to
> > the pesticides. But now, any cognizant observer will understand
> their modus
> > operandi, mission and rules of engagement. Their impotence in an
> > intellectual environment will probably always present unmistakable
> clues.
>
> Course, we can always look on the bright side: It's just possible, in
> these days when everything is run by accountants, that some flash
twat
> will realise what a waste of money and resources these deviants are.
> It's plain daft. Public money is squandered, so that Agent Orange
> exposes the fact that he suffers from trisomy 21, or some such.
> The cost is great, but the benefit is slight.
> Put another way; we, the public, do not need to know that Agent
Orange
> is a retard. Therefore, the whole exercise is a complete waste of
> money.
> If the authorities were to institutionalise the Agent, then it would
> cost far less than having him roam, aimlessly; and would result in
the
> benefit that fewer wankers would roam the streets; and those wankers
> who remained, would be less encumbered, mentally, when concidered as
a
> whole.
_____________________________________________________
> Actually, they admit quite openly that they trawl the net looking for all
> sorts of malefactors-
> You didn't read the material either, did you?
>
_______________________________________
Police in FBI unit violate 'spy files' pact, ACLU says
By Sue Lindsay, Rocky Mountain News
December 2, 2004
The American Civil Liberties Union contends that the FBI's Joint Terrorism
Task Force is compiling its own "spy files" on peaceful protesters.
The ACLU charges that Denver police assigned to the unit are violating a
2003 agreement in which Denver promised to stop keeping files of
surveillance information on individuals and groups who engage in peaceful
political demonstrations.
Mark Silverstein, the ACLU's legal director, and activists will present
evidence of the violations at a news conference this morning.
The settlement agreement applies to no other government agency, and the
question of whether Denver police officers who serve on the terrorism task
force are bound by its rules remains unresolved.
During his election campaign, Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper and other
candidates said that Denver rules against political monitoring would apply
to all officers whether they are on the task force or not, Silverstein has
said.
The ACLU sued the city in federal court in 2002 over the police surveillance
files on political activists and organizations. The lawsuit contended that
Denver police watched thousands of activities and protesters despite the
fact that they never were implicated in criminal activity.
The files labeled as "criminal extremist" such organizations as the American
Friends Service Committee.
Pasted from
<http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3368146,
00.html>
__________________________________________________________
> > But I doubt he has the balls to call you or anyone else you know...for
all
> > his blather he's just another keyboard twit.
>
> Actually, he's called a couple of times now- and acted far more like a cop
> than a nitnat.
>
I recognized John Carr's (Greenwood Village Police Department) voice and
Aunt Joyce described it quite accurately.
> > Perhaps so, but I don't think there's any evidence that anyone here is
> > plotting against you.
>
www.docslaw.com/images/AndersonCharges.pdf
> You haven't read *any* of this, have you?
> Look; this is all very local for us- the source of the difficulty is all
> centered in Jefferson County Colorado, and particularly as regards their
> Sheriff's Office.
www.docslaw.com/Conspiracy.htm
> The involving of the Federal agents was by Don Estep misusing his
> association with the FBI/USMarshal through the JTTF to bring pressure to
> bear in excess of what he could accomplish with false charges and civil
> liberty abuses. By the time we became aware of the fraud, the FBI had
> already screwed the pooch on Estep's word.
>
> > Libby just winds you and Chas up because he's one of life's losers. Pay
> > him no heed, practice and teach your art and enjoy life.
>
> Tell the Jews to ignore him- tell them that his antics aren't offensive
> enough to answer.
> Tell me his death threats and promises to ambush my family and I are
> inconsequential. I wouldn't let them get away with it just so somebody
> watching might think I'd let them slide too.
> Libby is the poster child for demented stalkers who finally let go and
> attack- at the very least.
> At the other end of the extreme, 'he' is another attack from the
Defendants
> to serious charges of malfeasance with a possibililty of a *huge* judgment
> against them.
> Good motive all round.
>
> > It's too short to be wasted on the Liberators of this world.
>
> Not talking to him-
> talking *at* him and *to* you <g>
>
Good distinction Chas. There are a few bright young lads worthy of a
complete explanation . . . but ONLY a few. ;-(>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Best to you now
>
> You too, buddy.
> --
> Chas
> http://www.warriorschest.com/
> http://www.kuntaosilat.com/images/HMKAD.pdf
> www.willemdethouars.com
>
>
Ya'll have a nice day now, yahea?
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Steve Gartin
"Badger North" <young_...@REEEMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cah69155o5umnh7od...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:46:35 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>
> >He called me immediately to inform me that he and his Family had been
> >threatened by some 'Ex-Student of Steve Gartin and Willem de Thouars' to
> >expose Uncle Bill's 'dirty laundry' on the Yahoo Groups and
Rec.Martial-Arts
> >if he did not stop me, Steve Gartin, from exposing Bob Orlando as an
> >imposter and Roger Brockman as an inept incompetent buffoon.
>
> Okay, so *why* does all this mean that it *must* be the feds?
> Why
> couldn't it be Orlando?
Aunt Joyce has heard Orlando cry about Chas and I 'picking' on him until she
is sick of hearing his voice on the telephone.
> Or a student of Orlando?
That is possible. As a matter of fact a gentleman called me from Denver who
had been there a year . . . from New Jersey . . . a kempo player . . . who
awfully suddenly wanted to start studying with us. I gave him Chas' number.
:-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Or Brockman?
Aunt Joyce knows Brockman quite well. Roger has a VERY distinctive voice.
> Or
> anybody in the Janich, Simonet et al. group?
She has already heard from those camps. Lot's of folks whine and cry
directly to her since Uncle doesn't have much tolerance for crybabies.
> Or Libby (assuming he is
> a he and not a task force)?
It WAS LIBBY . . . duh!
> Or just some random fuckhead lurker here
> on RMA?
>
One of the things that he re-interated numerous times was that he was an
EXstudent of both Willem and I. There's only two of them . . . duh!
> jest askin'
>
> Badger Jones
> www.youngforest.ca
> "Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements
Jest tellin'
Steve Gartin
www.docslaw.com/images/RICO.pdf
Badger North
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>> Or Libby (assuming he is
>> a he and not a task force)?
>
>It WAS LIBBY . . . duh!
Certainly it is your assertion that the phone call was part of
Operation Liberator. Others may not share such a view.
>> Or just some random fuckhead lurker here
>> on RMA?
>>
>One of the things that he re-interated numerous times was that he was an
>EXstudent of both Willem and I. There's only two of them . . . duh!
Yeah, cuz he'd be telling the truth. Okay, so I if I was the caller,
I probably would have fucked up by claiming to be an ex-student of
you, Chas and Willem. It is indicative of no-one.
There's a guy in town here, who wrote out a *signed* death threat to a
former student. I asked said student why he didn't press charges -
"because they can lock him up, but they won't automatically lock up
all his students," was the reply. I would suspect it is the student
of someone, either explicitely or otherwise suggested to make the
call.
Steve Gartin
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 10:33:22 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>
> >> Or Libby (assuming he is
> >> a he and not a task force)?
> >
> >It WAS LIBBY . . . duh!
>
> Certainly it is your assertion that the phone call was part of
> Operation Liberator. Others may not share such a view.
>
> >> Or just some random fuckhead lurker here
> >> on RMA?
> >>
> >One of the things that he re-interated numerous times was that he was an
> >EXstudent of both Willem and I. There's only two of them . . . duh!
>
> Yeah, cuz he'd be telling the truth. Okay, so I if I was the caller,
> I probably would have fucked up by claiming to be an ex-student of
> you, Chas and Willem. It is indicative of no-one.
>
Let's see . . . that would boil down to ONE. And he doesn't admit to
studying with Chas and I anymore, since the last time Willem kicked us out.
He went for the *money* don't cha know? Chas and I keep track of these
things. Remember, Chas is the de Thouars Family Historian.
> There's a guy in town here, who wrote out a *signed* death threat to a
> former student. I asked said student why he didn't press charges -
> "because they can lock him up, but they won't automatically lock up
> all his students," was the reply. I would suspect it is the student
> of someone, either explicitely or otherwise suggested to make the
> call.
>
Oh sure . . . pure random ~ totally co-incidental that they would mention
Bob Orlando / Joe Simonet / Roger Brockman repeatedly during this 20 minute
conversation. Pure accident that they would *know* things about Uncle Bill
that have NEVER been mentioned in public . . . ever!
His book is scheduled for publication this Fall, so it won't remain a
*secret* much longer.
Only ONE of the aforementioned disgusting trio had that knowledge and he
just happens to be the one with George Morin walking out of the FBI tower on
29 November, 1999 as I sped by on my bicycle. Duh! Doesn't take a
Philadelphia Lawyer to put the clues together . . . especially when they
start getting SO sloppy. Some may recall that I have a pornographic
memory.
:-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Badger Jones
> www.youngforest.ca
> "Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements
Good questions Badger.
Steve Gartin
www.docslaw.com/images/VindictiveProsecution.pdf
www.docslaw.com/images/SuperStarFBI.pdf
www.docslaw.com/images/Conspiracy.htm
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Badger North
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>Oh sure . . . pure random ~ totally co-incidental that they would mention
>Bob Orlando / Joe Simonet / Roger Brockman repeatedly during this 20 minute
>conversation. Pure accident that they would *know* things about Uncle Bill
>that have NEVER been mentioned in public . . . ever!
>
>His book is scheduled for publication this Fall, so it won't remain a
>*secret* much longer.
<shrug> just thinking you're looking harder for the culprit than you
need to, recent conversations on the Yahoogroup and all.
Shuurai
Chas wrote:
> "Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Why is they?? It's a bunch of rambling conspiracy articles from
> > people nobody ever heard of.
>
> You never even heard of the JTTF itself until Gartin brought it
> to your attention.
And frankly the only place I still hear about the JTTF is from you
and Steve.
> Do you think they don't exist? Do you think they're not out on the net
> trawling?
Whatever they're doing, the best thing the both of you could do is
nothing. Seriously - and I'm not the only one who's been saying it.
Either way. If we're right and Libby is a kook, you're not doing
anything to help the situation. If you're right and Libby is the JTTF,
then you're doing *exactly* what they want. Unless you think they
just never figured on you guys having keyboards.
> Did you even read the newspaper accounts, or the official directive
> about avoiding suit, or anything about the other people, like Philp,
> that they've treated similarly?
Yes, I did. Quite a number of them, in fact. Most of them sound like
paranoia. A few of them sound like overreaction. NONE of them was
proof of anything.
> Do you understand that the Denver Police Spy Files were to feed the
> JTTF unvetted information? Do you understand that the ACLU won an
> action against them for it, and now the suit is national?
And you really believe that one of their strategies would be to go
after two guys on a PUBLIC newsgroup? What purpose could that possibly
serve for them?
> > And you're saying that the *best* way these guys could think of to
> > shut down a suit is to post nasty things about you guys on RMA?
>
> Oh no- this is only one of the things they've done, and about the
> only venue public enough to answer them directly.
See above. Why in the world would they choose to *give* you a venue?
Fuck "the best they can do" - if this is something they consider an
option then it's laughable.
> They just offered a settlement with me- in the Federal Case. The offer
> was only good if I stop publicizing their misdeeds. In fact, they
> wanted me to agree to a confidentiality agreement that would penalize
> me for telling the truth, and disallow me from witnessing or
> participating in suits from others to whom they've done much the same
> thing. I'm not in the mood to leave them alone. And I hope they don't
> like it.
I just don't see the Libby connection. You haven't shown any concrete
connection; much less a motive.
Grey Mouser West
Shuurai wrote:
<snip>
> And you really believe that one of their strategies would be to go
> after two guys on a PUBLIC newsgroup? What purpose could that possibly
> serve for them?
>
> > > And you're saying that the *best* way these guys could think of to
> > > shut down a suit is to post nasty things about you guys on RMA?
> >
> > Oh no- this is only one of the things they've done, and about the
> > only venue public enough to answer them directly.
>
> See above. Why in the world would they choose to *give* you a venue?
> Fuck "the best they can do" - if this is something they consider an
> option then it's laughable.
Yes. Why would a government worker praise Hitler and make racial
insults on a public newsgroup? They risk everything in the hope of
gaining what in return? It makes no sense.
Steve Gartin
"Grey Mouser West" <calvin...@ocsnet.net> wrote in message
news:1116968633.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Shuurai wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > And you really believe that one of their strategies would be to go
> > after two guys on a PUBLIC newsgroup? What purpose could that possibly
> > serve for them?
> >
www.progovernment.com/Disinformation.htm
What *they* do to Chas and I is only an adjunct to what they do for a
living. Man, if you really want to catch some rodents ~ you must understand
their habitual patterns.
You may have noticed how drastically LIE-Berator, et al's posts against us
has declined lately. You may have even noticed that those post which do
occur are in the middle of the night. Like . . . maybe during *their* lunch
hour?
> > > > And you're saying that the *best* way these guys could think of to
> > > > shut down a suit is to post nasty things about you guys on RMA?
> > >
Oh no, they've already tried throwing us in jail, threatening us, turning
family, friends and students against us. Stalking us, sending in agent
provocateurs to live with us and train with us, making creepy phone calls,
changing our DNS servers, changing our passwords, virusing our computers,
stealing our possessions, threatening our Teachers and students. If we were
not SO public, they would have sniped us from afar by now ~ remember Ruby
Ridge and Waco?
OPERATION LIBERATOR commenced as a bona fide multi-jurisdictional
international police operation. It just so happened that several of the key
players were listed as Defendants in several Federal Anti-KKK suits
www.docslaw.com/images/RICO.pdf and they just happened to be high level
players in the local Joint Terrorism Task Force
www.jointterrorismtaskforce.com/Holstlaw.htm ~ they started pranking with us
on-line for several reasons that should be obvous to any alert 3rd Grader by
now . . . not like I haven't provided you folks with plenty of evidence.
> > > Oh no- this is only one of the things they've done, and about the
> > > only venue public enough to answer them directly.
> >
> > See above. Why in the world would they choose to *give* you a venue?
They simply could not prevent it. The arrogance of power is a concept that
obviously eludes most of you People . . . I'm truly sorry for you, but if
you haven't figured it out by now ~ you may never.
> > Fuck "the best they can do" - if this is something they consider an
> > option then it's laughable.
>
It seems that the 'American Government' has become the laughing stock of the
world, except for the fact that they WILL murder any one who they have
identified as an enemy of U.S. INTERESTS (read: Corporations). This is no
more laughable than other embarassing News items every day.
________________________________________
ACLU Denounces FBI Tactics Targeting Political Protesters
August 16, 2004
Calls on Individuals to Report FBI Interrogations
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
NEW YORK-The American Civil Liberties Union today denounced the FBI's use of
the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) to monitor, interrogate and suppress
anti-war and other political protesters and called on individuals who have
been targeted for investigation to come forward.
The ACLU issued the public statement after an article in today's New York
Times detailed actions taken by FBI agents in Missouri, Kansas and Colorado
to spy on and interrogate activists in advance of the Democratic and
Republican national conventions.
"The FBI's intimidation and interrogation of peaceful protesters brings back
eerie echoes of the days of J. Edgar Hoover," said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU
Executive Director. "Resources and funds established to fight terrorism
should not be misused to target innocent Americans who have done nothing
more than engage in lawful protest and dissent."
According to reports from ACLU offices, law enforcement officials throughout
the U.S. have been monitoring the daily activities of various activists they
believe are planning to protest major national political events, including
the upcoming Republican National Convention in New York, which is expected
to draw hundreds of thousands of protesters. In the days leading up to the
Democratic National Convention, officials identifying themselves as JTTF
agents made "visits" to the homes of several activists as well as their
friends and family members.
In Missouri, three young men in their early 20's were subpoenaed to testify
before a federal grand jury on July 29, the same day they planned on
protesting the Democratic convention. The men, who planned to drive to
Boston with an activist group based in St. Louis, first realized they were
being targeted by the FBI when agents visited the homes of their parents a
week before the subpoenas. In addition to asking about easily accessible
information such as current addresses, the agents also asked the parents for
information on their sons' political activities.
The very next day, agents visited the three men directly and asked them if
they had any knowledge of individuals planning "criminally disorderly
behavior" at the national conventions, the presidential debates, the
election or any other event. According to the men, the surveillance
increased after the visits, and conditions did not improve until after they
contacted the ACLU.
"These young men are quite terrified by the experience of being targeted by
the Joint Terrorism Task Force because of their protest activities," said
Denise Lieberman, Legal Director of the ACLU of Eastern Missouri. "The FBI
interrogations have had a chilling effect on free speech."
JTTF officials conducted similar investigations on individuals in Denver and
Fort Collins, Colorado, including 21-year-old Sarah Bardwell. Bardwell, an
intern with the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker group dedicated
to nonviolence, was approached at her home by four FBI agents and two Denver
police officers asking questions consistent with those in Missouri: Are you
planning to be involved in any criminal acts at the national conventions? Do
you know anybody who is? Are you aware that if you assist or know anybody
planning any criminal acts and do not report them, it's a crime?
According to Bardwell, the officials at first jokingly told her and her
housemates that they were there to do "community outreach," but then
clarified they were "doing some preventive measures and investigating."
Bardwell and her housemates believe they were targeted because of their past
participation in protests, including anti-war demonstrations.
Last year, the Denver Police Department agreed to stop its practice of
monitoring and recording the peaceful protest activities of local residents
in a settlement reached in the ACLU's landmark "Spy Files" lawsuit. Despite
the settlement, Denver's intelligence unit contributes two fulltime officers
to the JTTF.
"These JTTF visits are an abuse of power, designed to intimidate these kids
from exercising their constitutional right to protest government policies
and associate with others who want to protest government policies," said
Mark Silverstein, Legal Director of the ACLU of Colorado.
The ACLU denounced JTTF tactics last November after the publication of a
classified FBI intelligence memorandum, which gave police detailed
instructions on how to target and monitor lawful political demonstrations
under the rubric of fighting terrorism.
As reported in today's Times, a previously undisclosed DOJ legal opinion
condoned the controversial tactics outlined in the memorandum. The opinion
was issued in response to an internal complaint by an employee who charged
that the tactics blurred the line between lawfully protected speech and
illegal activity.
"It is troubling that the FBI continues to advocate spying on peaceful
protesters," said the ACLU's Romero. "But even protesters who engage in
civil disobedience or other disruptive acts should not be treated like
potential terrorists."
The ACLU said that there has been a noticeable increase in domestic spying
on political protesters in recent years. One of the most famous cases is the
infiltration of the anti-war group Peace Fresno by a member of the Fresno
County Sheriff Department's Anti-Terrorism unit in 2003. Peace Fresno
discovered one of its members had actually been a government agent through
an obituary published after his death in a motorcycle accident. The incident
is portrayed in Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 as an example of civil
liberties violations in the post-September 11th climate.
The ACLU said it is continuing to monitor incidents of FBI intimidation and
interrogation.
To read more about the FBI memo targeting protesters, go to
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=14450&c=206
To read the DOJ opinion condoning the memorandum, go to
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=16253&c=282
To read more about the ACLU's work to protect protest rights, see
http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeechlist.cfm?c=86
To read more about the ACLU of Colorado's "Spy Files" case, go to
http://www.aclu-co.org/spyfiles/chronology.htm
Pasted from <http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=16248&c=282>
____________________________________________
>
> Yes. Why would a government worker praise Hitler and make racial
> insults on a public newsgroup? They risk everything in the hope of
> gaining what in return? It makes no sense.
>
www.progovernment.com/Disinformation.htm
Then you aren't thinking clearly Gato.
Do you understand what an Agent Provocateur is? Are you completely ignorant
of the American CIA's involvement in world politics? Have you investigated
the DEA's international dragnets, and in particular OPERATION LIBERATOR? Do
any timelines or events ring any bells?
You *do* know about the Denver Spy Files and the Columbine cover-up and the
Mena / Truax murders by Cop . . . right? You are aware of the FBI's JTTF
debacles in Denver, Portland, Austin, New Jersey and Kentucky . . . right?
What part of that don't you understand?
____________________________________
jim spencer
Authorities terrorize dissenters
By Jim Spencer
Denver Post Columnist
Sarah Bardwell worked for the Quakers, not al-Qaeda.
Bardwell, a one-time intern with the American Friends Service Committee, is
no terrorist. She just played one in America's jack-booted stomp on dissent.
I'm sitting here reading the FBI reports on Bardwell that were released this
week under a Freedom of Information Act filing by the ACLU.
Sarah Bardwell, they say, is a member of Food Not Bombs. She also hung with
the Derailler Bicycle Collective.
All Americans, regardless of viewpoint, share the responsibility that
Bardwell takes seriously.
"If I see something I don't agree with," she said, "I get up and speak about
that and work to create just change."
That's why she helped organize a protest by Coloradans Opposing War, another
group mentioned in the FBI reports.
Three people at that protest were arrested, two for knocking over newspaper
stands, one for plastering a bumper sticker on a police vehicle that said
"Axis of Greed: Cheney, Bush, Ashcroft."
Bardwell was not arrested. But she was listed as a contact for the protest.
The FBI reports suggest the "close association between (Food Not Bombs) and
the Anarchist Black Cross movement and the close proximity of the FNB house
to 923 Lipan St., the location of the Anarchist Black Cross Denver," led the
Denver Joint Terrorism Task Force to Bardwell.
This is the kind of wasted time and money that let real bad guys run free.
Bardwell, who lives on Lipan Street, has no criminal record. Nor is she
associated in any way with Anarchist Black Cross.
"Someone told me they tried to have a meeting three years ago and no one
came," she said of the group.
Bardwell certainly doesn't remember Anarchist Black Cross at 923 Lipan or
anywhere else in Denver.
What she still recalls vividly are the G-men knocking on her door July 22,
trying to scare her and others who lived with her. They included FBI agents
and Denver police detectives. At least one person wore SWAT gear.
Bardwell said the agents and police threatened her and her friends when they
exercised their right not to identify themselves or answer questions about
whether they planned to disrupt the Democratic and Republican political
conventions.
"The purpose of the interviews was to intimidate," said the 21-year-old
activist, who had no intention of traveling to Boston.
It worked and it didn't. Bardwell says she'll continue demonstrating. But
she was amazed that the government could associate her with terrorism for
belonging to a group that feeds the homeless and one that fixes bicycles.
"I understand we need forms of law enforcement (since the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks)," she said. "But I think it's misdirected. The idea of terrorism is
being used to crush dissent."
She looks at her case as proof, and frankly, it's hard to argue with her.
There were, according to one FBI report, "several leads for the Denver
Division to conduct pretext interviews to gain general information
concerning possible criminal activity at the upcoming political conventions
and presidential election."
On Thursday, I asked an FBI spokeswoman about the tips that led to federal
agents and local police to Bardwell and her friends.
"Tips?" repeated the spokeswoman. "I don't know if I'd say that. We obtained
information and acted on it."
She said the task force had no choice.
"We have to follow up," she explained. "We have no unaddressed work as it
concerns terror."
I, on the other hand, have unaddressed questions about how terrorizing
Americans who peacefully disagree with their government makes the country
safer.
The FBI says it can't reveal the source of the intelligence that led the
terrorism task force to Bardwell.
One worries that it is the same people who convinced us we had to invade
Iraq because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
Jim Spencer's column appears Monday, Wednesday and Friday. He can be
reached at jspe...@denverpost.com or 303-820-1771.
Pasted from <http://denverpost.com/search/ci_2746311>
__________________________________________________
http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Civil_Rights/122302_archive_of_spy_files_stories.htm
__________________________________________________
God bless you poor, undereducated people. The only thing that explains your
deliberately stubborn ignorance is that you refuse to read anything except
comics.
Do you have another explanation? Why don't you go ahead and tell me jest
who you think LIEBERATOR is and how you arrive at that conclusion.
Seriously,
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Steve Gartin
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 12:27:05 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>
> >Oh sure . . . pure random ~ totally co-incidental that they would
mention
> >Bob Orlando / Joe Simonet / Roger Brockman repeatedly during this 20
minute
> >conversation. Pure accident that they would *know* things about Uncle
Bill
> >that have NEVER been mentioned in public . . . ever!
> >
> >His book is scheduled for publication this Fall, so it won't remain a
> >*secret* much longer.
>
> <shrug> just thinking you're looking harder for the culprit than you
> need to, recent conversations on the Yahoogroup and all.
>
anyone expects . . . naturally the ladies appreciate that aspect of my
personality.
No one expected me to file FOUR Federal Civil rights actions from solitary
confinement in 1997. No one expected all the inmate/detainees in the
Jefferson County Prison for Profit to file suit against them in 2001. No
one expected me to beat the two felony cases they brought against me during
my two year probation. No one expected me to complete Anger Management
classes and pass piss tests. No one expected me to *discover* that my
lawyer www.docslaw.com was a plant or that the witch they sicked on me was
an agent provocateur.
I'm not jest a pretty face . . .
> Badger Jones
> www.youngforest.ca
> "Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements
*They* didn't count on having to deal with a whole lot of things that they
really do not understand ~ like honesty, integrity, intelligence and
commitment to ideals and a code of honor. Most folks know better than to
pick a fight with a badger, or a wolverine.
Let it go, Bro . . . jest lurk and see how it all turns out.
Have a most enjoyable day,
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/jail.htm
Grey Mouser West
Steve Gartin wrote:
<snip>
> > Yes. Why would a government worker praise Hitler and make racial
> > insults on a public newsgroup? They risk everything in the hope of
> > gaining what in return? It makes no sense.
> >
> www.progovernment.com/Disinformation.htm
It was a simple question. It should have a simple answer. What would
they gain by posting as Liber8tor? That is a lot of work and a lot of
risk so what do they gain for it?
> Then you aren't thinking clearly Gato.
>
> Do you understand what an Agent Provocateur is? Are you completely ignorant
> of the American CIA's involvement in world politics? Have you investigated
> the DEA's international dragnets, and in particular OPERATION LIBERATOR? Do
> any timelines or events ring any bells?
> You *do* know about the Denver Spy Files and the Columbine cover-up and the
> Mena / Truax murders by Cop . . . right? You are aware of the FBI's JTTF
> debacles in Denver, Portland, Austin, New Jersey and Kentucky . . . right?
> What part of that don't you understand?
Are you trying to avoid my question? Nobody (except perhaps Hal who
doesn't count) disputes the fact that you have had some real trouble
with a real conspiracy made up of real criminals who were in our real
government. The point of disagreement is what would these criminals
gain by posting racial slurs and praising Hitler on usenet? Liberator
slandering you is a coincidence. It is not related to your real
problems. If you had ignored it as people advised you to do then Mark
Zhan probably would have droped it just like he does for anything else
he targets that gets a poor response. I don't have a problem with you
messing with Liberator's mind because as I said IMO the longer you hold
his attention the less time he will have to stalk others. However your
real enemies would not waste their time pretending to be Liberator.
<snip>
> Do you have another explanation? Why don't you go ahead and tell me jest
> who you think LIEBERATOR is and how you arrive at that conclusion.
>
>
>
> Seriously,
Mark Zhan is an insane man who trolls usenet in order to gain
attention. I base that assessment on the sum of his post which I have
been sampling since 1997.
Steve Gartin
>
{snip} >
> <snip>
>
>
> > Do you have another explanation? Why don't you go ahead and tell me
jest
> > who you think LIEBERATOR is and how you arrive at that conclusion.
> >
> >
> >
> > Seriously,
>
>
> Mark Zhan is an insane man who trolls usenet in order to gain
> attention. I base that assessment on the sum of his post which I have
> been sampling since 1997.
>
What good would attention do a non-existent entity? Do you postulate that
he is going to *suddenly* reveal himself and extol his virtues for having
*deceived* the world? Why would a homeless psycho spend all night trawling
the internet with every conceivable *conspiracy* theory, racial-hate rant
and bizarre theories ~ interspersed with pleas for information on the very
OPERATIONS that the FBI/DEA/DOJ/CIA are working on at that very point in
time? Why would a homeless psycho have high-speed internet access with at
least a dozen screen names that we know about?
I'm truly interested in how you might explain all that friend. I'm not
yanking your chain here ~ a theory would be fine . . . if you have one.
Peace,
Steve
www.courtofpublicopinion.net {under construction}
Fraser Johnston
> "Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Why is they?? It's a bunch of rambling conspiracy articles from
>> people nobody ever heard of.
>
> You never even heard of the JTTF itself until Gartin brought it to your
> attention.
> Do you think they don't exist? Do you think they're not out on the net
> trawling?
Dude we're in Australia. Why would we of heard of the JTTF?
Fraser
Fraser Johnston
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
news:1197b9t...@corp.supernews.com...
> You may have noticed how drastically LIE-Berator, et al's posts against us
> has declined lately. You may have even noticed that those post which do
> occur are in the middle of the night. Like . . . maybe during *their*
> lunch
> hour?
So a bunch of cops on their lunch break drive to a library to write some
posts on an obscure newsgroup just to wind you up. Riiiiight. No offence
Steve but this just sounds insane.
Fraser
Chas
>> You never even heard of the JTTF itself until Gartin brought it to your
>> attention.
>> Do you think they don't exist? Do you think they're not out on the net
>> trawling?
> Dude we're in Australia. Why would we of heard of the JTTF?
Didn't stop him from having an opinion about them.
See, Frase; these guys are *local* for me- I'm one of the people in the
Denver Police Spy Files- not because I'm some sort of terrorist, not because
I'm even an activist- because I'm a witness against the cops in actions for
gross malfeasance.
That's called 'witness tampering' over here, buddy. That's called
'obstruction of justice', and it's a crime.
Chas
Steve Gartin
news:3fi4maF...@individual.net...
Gawd Fraser, you're thick. Must be the air Down Under. They take time out
of their day to prank with us. We are NOT their main fare . . . duh!
Come on man, bow out of the conversation if you can't keep up. No offense,
but you ain't gonna get this one until they come for you partner.
I really hope you don't have to learn about clowns like these from inside
their little prisons for profit! Not that you folks Down Under don't
understand Penal Colonies and schtuff! :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let's talk about something else, my friend. You are just not going to
figure this one out any time soon. Don't worry about me ~ if I wasn't used
to fighting with people with guns I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. Relax
~ it's all OK . . . Chas and I have this one under control. If, perchance
we end up dead one day, we missed a bullet somehow ~ no sweat ~ we live in
Eternity.
Peace,
Steve
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Fraser Johnston
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> Gawd Fraser, you're thick. Must be the air Down Under. They take time
> out
> of their day to prank with us. We are NOT their main fare . . . duh!
>
> Come on man, bow out of the conversation if you can't keep up. No
> offense,
> but you ain't gonna get this one until they come for you partner.
> I really hope you don't have to learn about clowns like these from inside
> their little prisons for profit! Not that you folks Down Under don't
> understand Penal Colonies and schtuff! :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Let's talk about something else, my friend. You are just not going to
> figure this one out any time soon. Don't worry about me ~ if I wasn't
> used
> to fighting with people with guns I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
> Relax
> ~ it's all OK . . . Chas and I have this one under control. If, perchance
> we end up dead one day, we missed a bullet somehow ~ no sweat ~ we live in
> Eternity.
Sorry Steve but I figure you must have a big ego if you think that cops can
afford to spend hours online a day at different locations just to prank with
you. It just doesn't add up. Also off topic libby posts where you aren't
even mentioned have been going on for 8 or 9 years. Hell Libby was on this
group when you were locked up talking shit about the Gracies.
Fraser
Fraser Johnston
Sure Chas. I know all that. But why would they bother trawling? What
possible benefit could they get from it other than shits and giggles. I
figure you have a case against them. But here isn't the arena to decide it.
Fraser
Oliver T.
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>Hey Oliver T,
>
>What an unexpected honor to see you slither out from under your covert
>covering:
Steve, now really. We have always had such polite discussions, in fact
I even pointed out during our discussions on religion that I was
impressed that you at least seemed to consistently walk the walk in
terms of trying to be tolerant, reasonable, and gentlemanly despite
whether we ultimately agree on the details. This is rather
disappointing. This time Chas was more polite, so you must forgive me
if perhaps I've struck a sensitive nerve.
>> "Auntie Joyce" calls the very law enforcement people that you are
>> constantly savaging on the net, yet thanks to you she can't have much
>> expectation of friendly interest on their part.
>
>But then, Oliver T, no one except criminals and covert government operatives
>have ever had much of an expectation of interest . . . except those of us
>who once believed in Truth, Justice and the American Way. PollyAnaIsh
>though we were. ;-(>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The very knaves and wankers we *savage* on the net are the ostensible
>gatekeepers of Justice ~ old folks still believe those myths.
I've never disagreed there are people who think they're above the law,
in fact I posted the story of a friend beaten up by police because
they were annoyed. But let's not sidetrack the point I made. My point
was that your attitude seems to get your friends in trouble in
addition to yourself. You pride yourself (there's that ego again) on
calling yourself "warrior", "fighter", "wolverine", etc. But unless
Willem gave his full blessing that you go online and challenge local
law enforcement to "bring it on" after his family was threatened, that
is very inconsiderate of you.
>> In the very same post
>> you call them a bunch of fags! How inclined are they going to be to
>> help in any way, regardless of the accuracy of any of your charges?
>
>And you have a problem with the Truth? Of course you do, silly me.
>Yes, all evidence presently points to a cabal of homosexuals gaggled
>together to do crime and cover each other's collective rectal regions.
LOL. I can always count on creative quips from you and Chas.
>You have obviously NOT done your homework again before engaging in repartee.
Steve, I am willing to wager that I have done MORE homework than any
other reader on this group. I actually read many of your pages in
detail, downloaded your preferred Bible, etc., and my comments showed
that I had. You are asking too much of anyone not intimately involved
in your life to know the intricacies of your situation. You posted
about Willem's wife being scared, and what we saw was this sequence:
Someone named Bob who claims to be a student of Bob Orlando's or some
such posted about him, you jumped in with the usual rant about how Bob
doesn't do what you do etc. etc., next thing you know someone is
threatening Willem's family *because* of that, demanding that *you*
stop.
>You are not a very intelligent 'person'? Oliver T.
LOL. I see, I'm intelligent if I agree with you, and not otherwise. ;)
I'm
not insecure about my intellect so you're wasting your time with such
gibes,
but if such comments make you feel better, as un Jesus-like as they
are,
please feel free. :) You are only lowering yourself. But I must point
out
that you have again dodged the point: how is Willem's family being
threatened
because of your action not a result of your personal choice to post
inflammatory
missives against Orlando and others you see as stealing the glory of
Kuntao Silat?
Incidentally, you seem to take such joy in legal matters, what is the
status of a trademark for Willem's system? According to
http://gartin.tripod.com/ the names Serak and American Kuntao Silat
are trademarked, is that correct? Rorion Gracie trademarked the name
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, preventing *his own relatives* with the last name
Gracie from using the name. Carley Gracie later sued over this, but in
general other Gracies don't use that term. Here is the synopsis of the
case Carley vs. Rorion:
"Carley Gracie/Gracie United States v. Rorian Gracie/Brajitsu
Case Nos. 98-15672/98-16386
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
OTHER-SERVICE MARK-DAMAGES-AWARD OF ATTORNEY FEES-CANCELLATION OF
REGISTRATION OF TRADE NAME
Carley came to the United States from Brazil in the early 1970s and
began teaching jiu-jitsu in the eastern United States as early as 1974
and in California sometime after he arrived in the state in 1979.
Carley has used the name "Gracie" in identifying his jiu-jitsu
instruction business. In the late 1970s, Rorion came to the United
States and began teaching the "Gracie method" of jiu-jitsu in Southern
California. Rorion applied for and obtained a California registration
for the Triangle Design logo and obtained federal registrations for
the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" service mark and the Triangle Design logo in
1989. Carley sued Rorion, challenging the validity of the term "Gracie
Jiu-Jitsu" and the Triangle Design logo as service marks. Judgment was
for Rorion and in part for Carley.
HELD: Once the district court gave the jury the power to determine the
validity of Rorion Gracie's federal service mark, refusing to cancel
the registration for "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" after the jury declared it to
be incapable of serving as a mark was inconsistent with the court's
duty to give effect to a jury verdict, and as such erroneous. Read as
a whole, then, the jury instructions permitted the jury to find
trademark infringement based on confusing similarity of the logos at
issue; a finding of exact copying was not required. The jury's verdict
of infringement was thus supported by the evidence, which included
Carley's and Rorion's highly similar logos for their competing
jiu-jitsu instruction businesses. Damages were properly awarded to
Rorion. The Lanham Act provision upon which Rorion's trademark
infringement claim rested, does not require actual consumer confusion
for recovery of profits. Rather, by its terms it requires only a
likelihood of confusion combined with willful infringement. The Lanham
Act permits an award of attorneys' fees to the prevailing party in
"exceptional cases." "While the term `exceptional' is not defined in
the statute, generally a trademark case is exceptional for purposes of
an award of attorneys' fees when the infringement is malicious,
fraudulent, deliberate or willful." The jury found the infringement
was willful. The amount of attorney fees awarded was 6 times the
damages awarded and should be reviewed on remand. Affirmed in part,
reversed in part and remanded."
It would seem that Willem would have a far easier time than Rorion
since the people you take exception to aren't named De Thouars, and
would have no basis for challenging a trademark like Kuntao Silat De
Thouars. Given your zest and zeal for matters legal, neither Bob
Orlando nor any other person on your s**t list would be insane enough
to use that logo. Personally I think I'd rather take on an army of
Scientology lawyers than have you burying me with legal paperwork. ;)
Wouldn't that be a whole lot more sensible than slandering people
online and lowering yourself, and by extension Willem, to deal with
criminals who would make threatening phonecalls?
>What you fail to understand is that Willem *was* a muslim when I first met
>him. He garnered government attention long before I did.
It seems you've garnered much more severe attention, even prior to
9/11, unless Willem has also been incarcerated. Obviously no one here
can be expected to know Willem's religious backround or his dealings
with government, but again you act as if everyone on the newsgroup
has all this information, or cares enough to look it up if you have it
posted. Unlike you, I have a life beyond Usenet. ;) I do this for
enjoyment and good discussion once in a while, and I tend not to post
until I have at least a somewhat interesting or challenging point.
However, I can certainly see that as a Muslim, Willem's association
with someone who is branded a Patriot and anti-government nutball by
the FBI and local law enforcement invites more scrutiny in these
times. I can see people thinking he's training a cell of
anti-government, knife-toting screwballs. ;) Having a close
association with you is clearly not sensible on his part, maybe he is
also wacky enough to enjoy this sort of constant nonsense.
>Willem's purported 'dirty laundry' is an integral part of his Book that is
>being edited and prepared for publication even as we speak. You, however,
>haven't the intellect to contemplate such a work, nor will you probably
>bother to buy it before you slither from hiding to naysay again, some day.
No, I won't be one of the three people who buy it. ;) If you hadn't
been posting conspiracy theories for so long I'd think this is just a
ploy to drum up interest in a forthcoming book and increase the sales
all the way from "nonexistent" to "laughable". ;) Seriously, I
wouldn't be interested in a book that publishes Willem DaFoe's dirty
laundry, and he's roughly a million times more famous than Willem De
Thouars. Get real, no offense to Willem, but what on earth could
constitute such "dirty laundry" in the life of a Dutch-Indonesian
immigrant martial artist that anyone could possibly care about it?!?
>Pardon me if I am incredulous that one could be so ignorant of the facts as
>you and still bother to post in public. Aren't you embarrassed in the
>least?
Perhaps I should be embarrassed that I spend any time at all with this
soap opera, but as I say once in a while it's an interesting
diversion. :) Really Steve, I've tried to be pretty even-handed with
you when most people would dismiss you out of hand as a tinfoil-hat
wearing goofball. As I think I've said before, I have a certain
fascination with the fragmentary nature of intelligence, where a
person can clearly be intelligent in some respects, and yet still do
things completely inconsistent with their apparent abilities in other
areas. I can only look at it as entertainment, because it would be
irrational to believe I have any chance of penetrating your
dysfunctional worldview. Look at the history of your online posts. For
some really funny stuff, people can Google rec.martial-arts for
exchanges between you, Chas, and Bill Nine Toes back in '99 when you
were ranting about Masonic conspiracies. At least 6 years of online
ranting about Masons, missing 14th amendments, admiralty courts, you
name it, and still going strong. The fact that there are all sorts of
new medications doesn't seem to have changed anything. ;) The details
may have changed, and I believe the things that have happened to you
are real, but for the audience here you predictably bring more things
on yourself (and others) than necessary. I don't have a problem with
you bringing things on yourself, but Willem probably has an awfully
skewed view of American life if you are his window, and that seems
very unfortunate.
>> How thoughtful of you. He, or at the very least his wife,
>> doesn't seem to enjoy the constant battle against conspiracies real or
>> imagined that seems the focus of your existence. Auntie Joyce was
>> scared, apparently for her life or the lives of her family, because of
>> *your* direct action.
>
>No, not quite. Your evaluation of the evidence always evinces certain
>predicatable characterists that causes me to question whether you might also
>be an agent provocateur. You always skew the facts in a manner that
>indicates that you may well have a taxpayer paid agenda. I'd entertain any
>explanation you may offer, Officer, her Comrade.
At last! I was wondering when your paranoia would rise to the level of
thinking I'm some sort of government agent. Priceless. :) But
seriously, you again avoid the simple point: you posted the diatribe
that provoked some criminal (as only a criminal, even a badge-wearing
one, would make threatening phonecalls) to threaten Willem et al, yet
you avoid any responsibility. You carp about other people's character,
why can you not step up and admit you are the protruding nail that
openly invites the hammer, and the fallout affects those who associate
with you?
>> You sprout the Boner of Righteous
>> Indignation(tm) when you see the name Bob Orlando.
>
>No, Bob Orlando is of no consequence UNTIL he claims to do what I do.
>You have no clue. You have not bothered to investigate . . . still ~ to
>this date. You are totally ignorant of what KTS is. After this post, I'll
>relegate you to the 'T'@asshole.com killfile. You're either an idiot or a
>provocateur.
As I posted before, I trained with Paul De Thouars in Los Angeles, I
was also at a seminar with Willem once. I thought it was good stuff. I
think the De Thouars brothers are all very skilled. I have several
Steven Plinck videos in my collection, a Victor tape with Bob Vanatta
doing djurus, etc. I have nothing bad to say about the arts, quite the
contrary. I just saw an ad for an upcoming Dog Brothers DVD discussing
silat in a MMA context. I'd like to see that, since I've always
thought Serak/Bukti Negara's use of the elbows was exceptional, and
not something I've ever seen done in MMA.
However you are correct in that I don't claim any particular knowledge
of KTS, though I wouldn't say I am "totally ignorant". Maybe 99.9%,
but still better than most on the group. ;) And I thought you were of
the opinion that killfiles are for the weak-minded, but perhaps I was
thinking of someone else. In any case I'm sorry you seem so upset,
but your reaction is telling. Willem is doing himself no favors having
you as his apparent online spokesman. It *is* his choice in theory,
though I wonder if he knows you write things like the post that
started this thread, where you exhibit all the subtlety, reserve, and
good judgement of a pre-adolescent.
>Once again, you're an idiot. I *AM* the only person on this NG who knows
>what is going on and exposes LIE-Berator, et al every time they expose their
>collective pestulant heads. I assume FULL responsibility. . . 100%
Please clarify: you, Steve Gartin, assume FULL responsibility for
agitating the Enemies of Gartin such that Willem's wife became fearful
for the lives of her family members?
>> Wrong. You
>> started this, yet I don't see any post from you in which you
>> acknowledge your responsibility.
>
>In case you missed it, I take full responsibility for exposing Bob Orlando,
>Michael Janich, Joe Simonet and Paladin Press . . . you saw it here Folks.
Is this a poor attempt at another dodge?. You pointedly do *not* take
responsibility for the *consequences* of "exposing" the above named
*in such inflammatory manner* as to cause great stress to Willem's
wife and family. That is *not* taking responsibility. That is being
careless, thoughtless, and immature. Poor impulse control and
extremely poor judgment.
Again, the sensible way to handle such an issue is to trademark the
name, or if it is already trademarked then sue. Then Orlando et al
will be forced to use a name like "Orlando Kuntao Silat", or something
else that is not the name you trademark.
>> Did Willem tell you to post anti-Bob
>> anti-law enforcement prattle? I doubt it. After seeing his elderly
>> wife scared, did he tell you to get online and challenge local law
>> enforcement to "bring it on"?
>
>No, that was all of my own volition. Got a problem with that?
See above comments regarding maturity, impulse control, and inflicting
others with the fallout of your ill-considered ego-driven actions.
>I'd really like to hear Willem's answer
>> to that, because I rather doubt it.
>>
>Call him. Others do.
Even if I were that interested, which I'm not, a random phonecall from
the peanut gallery is only going to increase the stress to his family,
wondering who I am and why I'm bothering to call. They'd probably
think I'm a sniper lining up a window shot by the phone or something.
;) Unlike you, I have some sense of propriety and judgement. You seem
to be his online mouthpiece for better or worse, why don't you show
him your post, and ask him to comment on whether your telling local
law enforcement to "bring it on" has his support? Screwy as you are, I
trust that you are honest enough to post his response. I don't know if
his grasp of English and the Internet is sufficient to understand the
impact of your public pronouncements though, so I'm uncertain how
valid that would be. Still it's only fair that an attempt be made to
make him understand what you do here and how it impacts his family.
>> To be blunt, if you love these
>> people the way you say you do, the very least you could do is shut
>> the hell up for once and not drag them into the cesspool of your
>> endless tilting at windmills.
>
>You may not have noticed that I don't start these debacles ~ but no one,
>including you can refute even the most fundamental point with fact. I
>understand DisInformation and I'm not alone, Agent.
Actually the record here shows that you did in fact fan the flames of
this current chain of events, that was the entire point of my post. If
you had not posted in response to the Orlando seminar announcement, it
simply could not be the case that anyone would call Willem and ask him
to stop you from posting. I can't break it down for you any simpler
than that. Your diatribe was a necessary ingredient.
>> Surely they deserve better than having
>> you torment them in old age, don't you think?
>>
>Do you suppose that Bob Orlando, Don Miller, Roger Brockman, Joe Simonet,
>Michael Janich or Sam Edwards is going to support them in their old age.
>I'm all they got fool. I take that responsibility seriously.
Not seriously enough, IMNSHO. If you're all they've got then can
forget about a peaceful and happy old age, sad to say.
>What is your stake in all this??????????????????????????
Not a thing. By posting here, you are inviting comment. I read your
post, felt bad for an old woman and man, a man I've met and who seemed
very genuine, gave us heartfelt thanks for attending his seminar, etc.
I noted the hypocrisy of you ranting about a situation while avoiding
the obvious, that your mouth got it to the point that someone would
harass them to make you shut up. Throughout all my discussions with
you, I have recommended that you take a more subtle path to get better
results. I have witnessed others say the same, over and over, but you
seem to have a skull made of rock. I find that strangely
fascinating...but not so much that I spend hours a week on it. It's
clearly hopeless, and it's comical that you expect anyone to keep up
with your endless energy to post 50,000 words a day. Your expectations
have a serious disconnect with reality in many areas, and your methods
are clearly suboptimal, both those done on your own behalf, and
clearly on the behalf of others.
>Seriously, tell me why you get involved in something that has absolutely
>NOTHING to do with you? You're a friggin' copsucker, ain't you?
You know, I must have read that term from you a hundred times, and it
still makes me laugh every time. :) Liars, esquires is decent, as is
Govermin, but copsucker is the best. :) In any case I answered the
first question at length in the paragraph above. In short, you post
here, you invite comment. And other things, apparently, like threats
to old woman from dirtbags who feel you are threatening their
livelihood.
The answer to the second question is "no", but I think you know that
already. My spelling and grammar is too good. ;) Perhaps you'd like
that to be the case, since it would be a cheap way for you to avoid
the points I make. Most responses to you fall into two easy
categories, people who think you're a kook and are dismissive, and
easy to dismiss, and people who are wellwishers and tolerate your
eccentricity. In contrast I actually read the things you post before
bothering to write anything, and so you don't see anything from me
until I have a pointed question or issue that is not as easily
handled.
Talk to God, Steve, and perhaps admit that I am only telling you what
you don't want to hear...you are a source of pain and trouble to those
close to you, for reasons of your own ego. Didn't the court-ordered
psych eval peg you with narcissistic personality disorder or something
along those lines? You understand what I'm saying and there is no need
for me to repeat it. I encourage you not to be a hypocrite, and
continue trying to walk the walk of what you say you believe. Nobody
said it was easy to do. ;)
Steve Gartin
news:4293eeb7...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
> On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:37:26 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>
> >Hey Oliver T,
> >
> >What an unexpected honor to see you slither out from under your covert
> >covering:
>
> Steve, now really. We have always had such polite discussions, in fact
> I even pointed out during our discussions on religion that I was
> impressed that you at least seemed to consistently walk the walk in
> terms of trying to be tolerant, reasonable, and gentlemanly despite
> whether we ultimately agree on the details. This is rather
> disappointing. This time Chas was more polite, so you must forgive me
> if perhaps I've struck a sensitive nerve.
>
A). a complete idiot
B). another agent provocateur
We do have our consistent qualities.
> >You have obviously NOT done your homework again before engaging in
repartee.
>
> Steve, I am willing to wager that I have done MORE homework than any
> other reader on this group. I actually read many of your pages in
> detail, downloaded your preferred Bible, etc., and my comments showed
> that I had. You are asking too much of anyone not intimately involved
> in your life to know the intricacies of your situation. You posted
> about Willem's wife being scared, and what we saw was this sequence:
> Someone named Bob who claims to be a student of Bob Orlando's or some
> such posted about him, you jumped in with the usual rant about how Bob
> doesn't do what you do etc. etc., next thing you know someone is
> threatening Willem's family *because* of that, demanding that *you*
> stop.
>
Yes.
> >You are not a very intelligent 'person'? Oliver T.
>
> LOL. I see, I'm intelligent if I agree with you, and not otherwise. ;)
> I'm
> not insecure about my intellect so you're wasting your time with such
> gibes,
> but if such comments make you feel better, as un Jesus-like as they
> are,
> please feel free. :) You are only lowering yourself. But I must point
> out
> that you have again dodged the point: how is Willem's family being
> threatened
> because of your action not a result of your personal choice to post
> inflammatory
> missives against Orlando and others you see as stealing the glory of
> Kuntao Silat?
>
Tell me this Oliver . . . why would telling the truth about Orlando bring
threats to Willem's wife about exposing Willem's dirty laundry?
Thanks! I needed that.
> It would seem that Willem would have a far easier time than Rorion
> since the people you take exception to aren't named De Thouars, and
> would have no basis for challenging a trademark like Kuntao Silat De
> Thouars. Given your zest and zeal for matters legal, neither Bob
> Orlando nor any other person on your s**t list would be insane enough
> to use that logo. Personally I think I'd rather take on an army of
> Scientology lawyers than have you burying me with legal paperwork. ;)
You're not alone in those sentiments.
> Wouldn't that be a whole lot more sensible than slandering people
> online and lowering yourself, and by extension Willem, to deal with
> criminals who would make threatening phonecalls?
>
My goodness Oliver, you're a little behind the power curve . . . but you've
got the basic premise. Watch!
> >What you fail to understand is that Willem *was* a muslim when I first
met
> >him. He garnered government attention long before I did.
>
> It seems you've garnered much more severe attention, even prior to
> 9/11, unless Willem has also been incarcerated. Obviously no one here
> can be expected to know Willem's religious backround or his dealings
> with government, but again you act as if everyone on the newsgroup
> has all this information, or cares enough to look it up if you have it
> posted. Unlike you, I have a life beyond Usenet. ;) I do this for
> enjoyment and good discussion once in a while, and I tend not to post
> until I have at least a somewhat interesting or challenging point.
Nor do I. This endeavor consumes an infinitestimal portion of my life. I
simply expect that anyone who cares to propose an opinion would research it
enough to be able to defend that position in a court of law . . . I do.
> However, I can certainly see that as a Muslim, Willem's association
> with someone who is branded a Patriot and anti-government nutball by
> the FBI and local law enforcement invites more scrutiny in these
> times. I can see people thinking he's training a cell of
> anti-government, knife-toting screwballs. ;) Having a close
> association with you is clearly not sensible on his part, maybe he is
> also wacky enough to enjoy this sort of constant nonsense.
>
Can you imagine what you have just said to be a reality in the Land of the
Free and the Home of the Brave? Accuse me of a crime ~ and prove it in a
court of law ~ or let me tote as many knives or guns as I care to. You're a
communist? Or a facist? Or simply scared of people that may be able to
hurt you if you decide to trample over them?
> >Willem's purported 'dirty laundry' is an integral part of his Book that
is
> >being edited and prepared for publication even as we speak. You,
however,
> >haven't the intellect to contemplate such a work, nor will you probably
> >bother to buy it before you slither from hiding to naysay again, some
day.
>
> No, I won't be one of the three people who buy it. ;) If you hadn't
> been posting conspiracy theories for so long I'd think this is just a
> ploy to drum up interest in a forthcoming book and increase the sales
> all the way from "nonexistent" to "laughable". ;) Seriously, I
> wouldn't be interested in a book that publishes Willem DaFoe's dirty
> laundry, and he's roughly a million times more famous than Willem De
> Thouars. Get real, no offense to Willem, but what on earth could
> constitute such "dirty laundry" in the life of a Dutch-Indonesian
> immigrant martial artist that anyone could possibly care about it?!?
>
Well, something that some *friend* of Bob Orlando / Joe Simonet /Roger
Brockman feels is critical enough that the threat of exposure would cause
Willem to *try* to shut me up. Duh! Remember this thread is about a few
phone calls and threats?
> >Pardon me if I am incredulous that one could be so ignorant of the facts
as
> >you and still bother to post in public. Aren't you embarrassed in the
> >least?
>
> Perhaps I should be embarrassed that I spend any time at all with this
> soap opera, but as I say once in a while it's an interesting
> diversion. :) Really Steve, I've tried to be pretty even-handed with
> you when most people would dismiss you out of hand as a tinfoil-hat
> wearing goofball.
You probably haven't keyed in on the fact that I don't know you and I could
care less about your opinion ~ other than that it provides me a bloody
pulpit to speak some truth that some will get and the masses will miss.
> As I think I've said before, I have a certain
> fascination with the fragmentary nature of intelligence, where a
> person can clearly be intelligent in some respects, and yet still do
> things completely inconsistent with their apparent abilities in other
> areas.
Your knowledge and understanding are both deficient or you would not
envision such a dichotomy.
> I can only look at it as entertainment, because it would be
> irrational to believe I have any chance of penetrating your
> dysfunctional worldview. Look at the history of your online posts. For
> some really funny stuff, people can Google rec.martial-arts for
> exchanges between you, Chas, and Bill Nine Toes back in '99 when you
> were ranting about Masonic conspiracies.
All of which have proved to be true, BTW. Didn't you see the 60 minutes
"God's Banker?"
> At least 6 years of online
> ranting about Masons, missing 14th amendments, admiralty courts, you
> name it, and still going strong.
Nothing has changed except for the fact that many of those who have eyes to
see have learned that what I said WAY back then have proved to be true . .
and more is coming.
> The fact that there are all sorts of
> new medications doesn't seem to have changed anything. ;)
Oh yeah, they have finally admitted that those drugs kill people, make
people kill other people and make people committ suicide. Duh!
> The details
> may have changed, and I believe the things that have happened to you
> are real, but for the audience here you predictably bring more things
> on yourself (and others) than necessary. I don't have a problem with
> you bringing things on yourself, but Willem probably has an awfully
> skewed view of American life if you are his window, and that seems
> very unfortunate.
>
He has his own opinions. Did you ever see the video?
> >> How thoughtful of you. He, or at the very least his wife,
> >> doesn't seem to enjoy the constant battle against conspiracies real or
> >> imagined that seems the focus of your existence. Auntie Joyce was
> >> scared, apparently for her life or the lives of her family, because of
> >> *your* direct action.
> >
What a twit! I was not the ones who threatened her. Do you have a problem
with the fact that the caller was calling on behalf of three criminals?
People who had stolen her substance and Uncle's just like they had stolen
mine and Chas'? You talk just like a liar, esquire or a copsucker. You are
fooling no one.
> >No, not quite. Your evaluation of the evidence always evinces certain
> >predicatable characterists that causes me to question whether you might
also
> >be an agent provocateur. You always skew the facts in a manner that
> >indicates that you may well have a taxpayer paid agenda. I'd entertain
any
> >explanation you may offer, Officer, her Comrade.
>
> At last! I was wondering when your paranoia would rise to the level of
>
> thinking I'm some sort of government agent. Priceless. :) But
> seriously, you again avoid the simple point: you posted the diatribe
> that provoked some criminal (as only a criminal, even a badge-wearing
> one, would make threatening phonecalls) to threaten Willem et al, yet
> you avoid any responsibility.
I did exactly what you see that I did. I'm not denying anything. I am more
than willing to call a spade a spade and not mince words with fools or
criminals, even those in black robes or with badges.
> You carp about other people's character,
> why can you not step up and admit you are the protruding nail that
> openly invites the hammer, and the fallout affects those who associate
> with you?
>
Your memory is pitiful Oliver. Don't you remember why Willem made the
video? Don't you remember why he kicked me out the SECOND time? Holy
Smokes kid, I'm not going to explain all this again . . . google me.
> >> You sprout the Boner of Righteous
> >> Indignation(tm) when you see the name Bob Orlando.
> >
> >No, Bob Orlando is of no consequence UNTIL he claims to do what I do.
> >You have no clue. You have not bothered to investigate . . . still ~ to
> >this date. You are totally ignorant of what KTS is. After this post,
I'll
> >relegate you to the 'T'@asshole.com killfile. You're either an idiot or
a
> >provocateur.
>
> As I posted before, I trained with Paul De Thouars in Los Angeles, I
> was also at a seminar with Willem once. I thought it was good stuff. I
> think the De Thouars brothers are all very skilled. I have several
> Steven Plinck videos in my collection, a Victor tape with Bob Vanatta
> doing djurus, etc. I have nothing bad to say about the arts, quite the
> contrary. I just saw an ad for an upcoming Dog Brothers DVD discussing
> silat in a MMA context. I'd like to see that, since I've always
> thought Serak/Bukti Negara's use of the elbows was exceptional, and
> not something I've ever seen done in MMA.
>
Wow! You got me . . . I can't believe I forgot that ~ must have missed that
post somehow. ;-(>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> However you are correct in that I don't claim any particular knowledge
> of KTS, though I wouldn't say I am "totally ignorant". Maybe 99.9%,
> but still better than most on the group. ;) And I thought you were of
> the opinion that killfiles are for the weak-minded, but perhaps I was
> thinking of someone else.
No, I killfiled Hal {IH} for a while and Theresa T~nothi...@hotair.net
now. I have limited time on line and don't care to waste it with
irretrievable fools.
> In any case I'm sorry you seem so upset,
> but your reaction is telling. Willem is doing himself no favors having
> you as his apparent online spokesman. It *is* his choice in theory,
> though I wonder if he knows you write things like the post that
> started this thread, where you exhibit all the subtlety, reserve, and
> good judgement of a pre-adolescent.
>
Nice slam. I'm not Willem's 'online spokesman' but he does well understand
that I'm telling the truth. Yes, I copy Willem in on everything that goes
on here. He receives phone calls from all over the world reporting my
internet activities.
I have made a conscious decision to move *past nice* with some of these
folks and this is not even the tip of the iceberg.
> >Once again, you're an idiot. I *AM* the only person on this NG who knows
> >what is going on and exposes LIE-Berator, et al every time they expose
their
> >collective pestulant heads. I assume FULL responsibility. . . 100%
>
> Please clarify: you, Steve Gartin, assume FULL responsibility for
> agitating the Enemies of Gartin such that Willem's wife became fearful
> for the lives of her family members?
>
Yes! Who else? Who else has come out in public to say that Bob Orlando is
a poseur? A fake, an imposter! That is what started the JTTF's threatening
phone calls. . . duh!
> >> Wrong. You
> >> started this, yet I don't see any post from you in which you
> >> acknowledge your responsibility.
> >
See it here then.
> >In case you missed it, I take full responsibility for exposing Bob
Orlando,
> >Michael Janich, Joe Simonet and Paladin Press . . . you saw it here
Folks.
>
> Is this a poor attempt at another dodge?. You pointedly do *not* take
> responsibility for the *consequences* of "exposing" the above named
> *in such inflammatory manner* as to cause great stress to Willem's
> wife and family. That is *not* taking responsibility. That is being
> careless, thoughtless, and immature. Poor impulse control and
> extremely poor judgment.
>
Your opinion is somehow skewed into some strange dimension. First you say
that I didn't accept responsibility ~ then you *quote* me taking
responsibility ~ what exactly are you trying to say Oliver T?
> Again, the sensible way to handle such an issue is to trademark the
> name, or if it is already trademarked then sue. Then Orlando et al
> will be forced to use a name like "Orlando Kuntao Silat", or something
> else that is not the name you trademark.
>
Rome wasn't built in a day. Why do you think it has AGAIN become SO
important to *come after GARTIN?* There are lots of folks doing their level
best to keep me from the courthouse doors.
> >> Did Willem tell you to post anti-Bob
Yes.
> >> anti-law enforcement prattle?
No.
>>>I doubt it. After seeing his elderly
> >> wife scared, did he tell you to get online and challenge local law
> >> enforcement to "bring it on"?
> >
No.
> >No, that was all of my own volition. Got a problem with that?
>
> See above comments regarding maturity, impulse control, and inflicting
> others with the fallout of your ill-considered ego-driven actions.
>
My goodness Oliver T, you are such a groveling dog. No wonder this once
Great Nation has fallen prey to the powers of evil. Did someone reach up
your rectum and rip out your spine?
> >I'd really like to hear Willem's answer
> >> to that, because I rather doubt it.
> >>
> >Call him. Others do.
>
> Even if I were that interested, which I'm not, a random phonecall from
> the peanut gallery is only going to increase the stress to his family,
> wondering who I am and why I'm bothering to call. They'd probably
> think I'm a sniper lining up a window shot by the phone or something.
Like I told Auntie, they're cops ~ they can't get away with killing you
without setting you up first.
> ;) Unlike you, I have some sense of propriety and judgement.
No, Oliver T. ~ you're a coward. In that regard, you're much akin to Hal
{IH} ~ you have probably never taken a stand in your pitiful life and
probably never will. You're in copious company however, most of humanity
does not believe in anything enough to take a stand. I'm not blaming you,
and I wouldn't even be mentioning it if you hadn't stuck your cowardly head
up making foolish sucking noises that I'm sure will endear you to the Czar.
> You seem
> to be his online mouthpiece for better or worse, why don't you show
> him your post, and ask him to comment on whether your telling local
> law enforcement to "bring it on" has his support?
I do. It doesn't. Willem went through WWII, concentration camps and
torture by *the Government* ~ he knows what is about to happen here in
America because cowards like you and Hal {IH} don't have the balls to stand
up against tyranny.
> Screwy as you are, I
> trust that you are honest enough to post his response. I don't know if
> his grasp of English and the Internet is sufficient to understand the
> impact of your public pronouncements though, so I'm uncertain how
> valid that would be. Still it's only fair that an attempt be made to
> make him understand what you do here and how it impacts his family.
>
There are varying opinions. GreenDistantStar postulates that there are only
500 people who read this NG. Others claim that Chas and I are known only
amongst this small number of regulars.
Willem's Family has been cheated out of a lot of money by poseurs like
Orlando, Janich and Simonet who have taken the food right out of their
mouths. Shall we discuss THAT impact?
> >> To be blunt, if you love these
> >> people the way you say you do, the very least you could do is shut
> >> the hell up for once and not drag them into the cesspool of your
> >> endless tilting at windmills.
> >
Sometimes I'm amazed at how someone who *appears* intelligent can be so
utterly stupid . . . you are the poster child Oliver T.
> >You may not have noticed that I don't start these debacles ~ but no one,
> >including you can refute even the most fundamental point with fact. I
> >understand DisInformation and I'm not alone, Agent.
>
> Actually the record here shows that you did in fact fan the flames of
> this current chain of events, that was the entire point of my post. If
> you had not posted in response to the Orlando seminar announcement,
Duh! *if you had not posted *****in response*****
> it
> simply could not be the case that anyone would call Willem and ask him
> to stop you from posting. I can't break it down for you any simpler
> than that. Your diatribe was a necessary ingredient.
>
Your intellectual disconnect ~ cognitive dissidence ~ or whatever you care
to label it amuses me Oliver T. God bless your heart, you really should
keep quiet . . . you really look foolish.
> >> Surely they deserve better than having
> >> you torment them in old age, don't you think?
> >>
> >Do you suppose that Bob Orlando, Don Miller, Roger Brockman, Joe Simonet,
> >Michael Janich or Sam Edwards is going to support them in their old age.
> >I'm all they got fool. I take that responsibility seriously.
>
> Not seriously enough, IMNSHO. If you're all they've got then can
> forget about a peaceful and happy old age, sad to say.
>
No, you are not humble ~ nor are you intelligent enough to prevail in a
battle of wits with either Chas nor I. You are a fool to try ~ and one
would have to wonder why you would try. What's in it for you?
We're coming up on the end of this Oddyessy, there will be a paycheck in it
for all of us.
> >What is your stake in all this??????????????????????????
>
> Not a thing. By posting here, you are inviting comment. I read your
> post, felt bad for an old woman and man, a man I've met and who seemed
> very genuine, gave us heartfelt thanks for attending his seminar, etc.
> I noted the hypocrisy of you ranting about a situation while avoiding
> the obvious, that your mouth got it to the point that someone would
> harass them to make you shut up. Throughout all my discussions with
> you, I have recommended that you take a more subtle path to get better
> results. I have witnessed others say the same, over and over, but you
> seem to have a skull made of rock. I find that strangely
> fascinating...but not so much that I spend hours a week on it. It's
> clearly hopeless, and it's comical that you expect anyone to keep up
> with your endless energy to post 50,000 words a day. Your expectations
> have a serious disconnect with reality in many areas, and your methods
> are clearly suboptimal, both those done on your own behalf, and
> clearly on the behalf of others.
>
Your opinions have been noted, considered and discarded as have others of
your cowardly ilk. It is always 'prudent' to 'go along to get along' but
the end of that train is always slavery. Why would you bother to train in
the martial arts if you are going to be a door-mat for every pubic official
who hasn't something better to do today than wipe their muddy feet on you?
> >Seriously, tell me why you get involved in something that has absolutely
> >NOTHING to do with you? You're a friggin' copsucker, ain't you?
>
> You know, I must have read that term from you a hundred times, and it
> still makes me laugh every time. :) Liars, esquires is decent, as is
> Govermin, but copsucker is the best. :) In any case I answered the
> first question at length in the paragraph above. In short, you post
> here, you invite comment. And other things, apparently, like threats
> to old woman from dirtbags who feel you are threatening their
> livelihood.
>
Thanks, I appreciate your notice of my linguistic singularity. Judges also
seem to appreciate it more than the opposing counsels. Actually, I'm jest
jivin' you about being a copsucker . . . I haven't noticed any as well
educated as yourself.
> The answer to the second question is "no", but I think you know that
> already. My spelling and grammar is too good. ;)
Ouch! That's what I get for replying line by line. ;-(>>>>>>>>>>
> Perhaps you'd like
> that to be the case, since it would be a cheap way for you to avoid
> the points I make. Most responses to you fall into two easy
> categories, people who think you're a kook and are dismissive, and
> easy to dismiss, and people who are wellwishers and tolerate your
> eccentricity. In contrast I actually read the things you post before
> bothering to write anything, and so you don't see anything from me
> until I have a pointed question or issue that is not as easily
> handled.
>
And, I appreciate that effort. But you're taking the wrong side. Obviously
your choice, but one that I think you will rue one day.
> Talk to God, Steve, and perhaps admit that I am only telling you what
> you don't want to hear...you are a source of pain and trouble to those
> close to you, for reasons of your own ego. Didn't the court-ordered
> psych eval peg you with narcissistic personality disorder or something
> along those lines?
Yeah, he was paid to do WAY worse than that, but couldn't force himself to
be in a position to be cross-examined by me in court. He too, is a coward ~
like you.
> You understand what I'm saying and there is no need
> for me to repeat it. I encourage you not to be a hypocrite, and
> continue trying to walk the walk of what you say you believe. Nobody
> said it was easy to do. ;)
>
I'm accustomed to taking the hard way ~ always have. As I enter the Silver
and Golden years I long for peace and quiet, but not at the price of slavery
nor submission to anyone except YHVH or The Messiah.
I live my life in communion ~ and when, and if, I hear that Voice that tells
me to submit to the Powers of Darkness, I will. But until that moment, I
will be what YHVH has ordained me to be. And I'm not even sorry that you,
and others, don't like it. However, I will fight for your Right to Decide
just as I will for mine, or Willem's or any other of the Creator's Children.
You may find it unusual that I made an entire reply without giving you any
homework links to follow, but I'm impressed that you are making an effort to
understand ~ albiet you fail miserably.
I do invite repartee, and you are certainly one of the most worthy to front
up. You will understand a great deal more about me if you were to take the
time to investigate Melchezidek and the Zadok. Warrior Priests appear to be
an irreconcilable dichotomy until you place Time into the proper
perspective. Those Days are rapidly coming to an end . . . but not quite
yet!
You downloaded the Ferrar-Fenton Bible, so you have the wherewithall to
investigate. Perhaps we'll talk again one day. I hope you will take
offense that I have called you a coward.
Have a most enjoyable morning,
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Steve Gartin
You haven't read the news stories I've posted.
They ADMIT to trawling the internet, they BRAG about their internet
activities and how productive they have been. Are you missing all that?
I know it is difficult to fathom, but there are gaggles of Go-Vermin agents
proudly working the internet full-time, knocking down some hefty salaries,
doing exactly what you, and others, can't possibly believe is possible.
I've posted the News Paper stories Fraser! This is NOT a matter of
conjecture ~ it is a concrete FACT. Sure, it sounds bizarre ~ but just take
the time to check it out.
It ain't all about Chas and I ~ we were just some of the first to expose
their covert operations.
Imagine how difficult it will become to hook fools off the internet if
everyone KNOWs the copsucking weasely govermin agents are actively trawling!
It is the denial that seines in innocent folks just having a bit of a rant
and saying something that the JTTF finds suspicious.
Have you ever tried to get out of jail once they got you? You DON'T want to
know. If I can save one poor innocent fool from finding out about
'mindcrimes' from the inside of a jail cell, this was all worth it. But in
reality, and as always, I have a much grander plan for these copsucking
vermin.
Don't worry about it until they arrive in your backyard.
Fraser Johnston
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
news:11986db...@corp.supernews.com...
> Good morning Bro,
>
> You haven't read the news stories I've posted.
>
> They ADMIT to trawling the internet, they BRAG about their internet
> activities and how productive they have been. Are you missing all that?
Yep. But nowhere do they mention you.
>
> I know it is difficult to fathom, but there are gaggles of Go-Vermin
> agents
> proudly working the internet full-time, knocking down some hefty salaries,
> doing exactly what you, and others, can't possibly believe is possible.
>
> I've posted the News Paper stories Fraser! This is NOT a matter of
> conjecture ~ it is a concrete FACT. Sure, it sounds bizarre ~ but just
> take
> the time to check it out.
I did.
>
> It ain't all about Chas and I ~ we were just some of the first to expose
> their covert operations.
>
> Imagine how difficult it will become to hook fools off the internet if
> everyone KNOWs the copsucking weasely govermin agents are actively
> trawling!
Then don't take the bait.
>
> It is the denial that seines in innocent folks just having a bit of a rant
> and saying something that the JTTF finds suspicious.
>
> Have you ever tried to get out of jail once they got you? You DON'T want
> to
> know. If I can save one poor innocent fool from finding out about
> 'mindcrimes' from the inside of a jail cell, this was all worth it. But
> in
> reality, and as always, I have a much grander plan for these copsucking
> vermin.
>
> Don't worry about it until they arrive in your backyard.
Steve the way you are reacting to this speaks volumes about the trouble
you've had. Have your day in court and forget Libby. I hope you make the
bastards pay.
Fraser
Steve Gartin
>
> "Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> news:11986db...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Good morning Bro,
> >
> > You haven't read the news stories I've posted.
> >
> > They ADMIT to trawling the internet, they BRAG about their internet
> > activities and how productive they have been. Are you missing all that?
>
> Yep. But nowhere do they mention you.
>
are doing this to anyone who hits a certain keyword. Are you aware of
CARNIVORE or OMNIVORE? This was going on way before they picked our ticket.
> >
> > I know it is difficult to fathom, but there are gaggles of Go-Vermin
> > agents
> > proudly working the internet full-time, knocking down some hefty
salaries,
> > doing exactly what you, and others, can't possibly believe is possible.
> >
> > I've posted the News Paper stories Fraser! This is NOT a matter of
> > conjecture ~ it is a concrete FACT. Sure, it sounds bizarre ~ but just
> > take
> > the time to check it out.
>
> I did.
>
Then you're beginning to get it????
> >
> > It ain't all about Chas and I ~ we were just some of the first to expose
> > their covert operations.
> >
> > Imagine how difficult it will become to hook fools off the internet if
> > everyone KNOWs the copsucking weasely govermin agents are actively
> > trawling!
>
> Then don't take the bait.
>
We're sharkeaters.
> >
> > It is the denial that seines in innocent folks just having a bit of a
rant
> > and saying something that the JTTF finds suspicious.
> >
> > Have you ever tried to get out of jail once they got you? You DON'T
want
> > to
> > know. If I can save one poor innocent fool from finding out about
> > 'mindcrimes' from the inside of a jail cell, this was all worth it. But
> > in
> > reality, and as always, I have a much grander plan for these copsucking
> > vermin.
> >
> > Don't worry about it until they arrive in your backyard.
>
> Steve the way you are reacting to this speaks volumes about the trouble
> you've had. Have your day in court and forget Libby. I hope you make the
> bastards pay.
>
> Fraser
>
Thanks my Friend, we'll make you guys proud.
Sleep sweet,
Steve {Free} Gartin
www.penobscotguides.com
Fraser Johnston
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
The thing is Steve I highly doubt that Libby is a goverment program looking
to entrap people. Waaaay too kooky. I imagine most government programs
would probably be hanging about on places like misc.survivalism and some of
the Muslim boards.
Fraser
PS do some research on the echelon system.
Steve Gartin
Yeah, I would have thought that if I were not personally acquainted with
many of the JTTF members in Denver. They are goofy and inept beyond
explanation. This is not even the stupidest thing they have got caught
doing.
You might recall that Chas postulated that the *real* LIBBY might be in a
rubber room whilst LIBERATOR runs amok on the newsgroups. Well, last night
I posted some of Liber8tor's early posts. Notice the startling differences.
Notice that he plied other groups. Those posts were very consistent . . .
like maybe b4 he went schizoid? Before he started locking the CAPS and
getting really weird? Before a half dozen dimwit 'Intelligence Agents'
started posting under the same name?
As you read some of the commentary on Libby's old posts, you'll note that
'someone' was sterilizing his posts and removing them from the servers. Why
would anyone be doing that? GDS mentioned that he had been following Libby
since 97, but only a few of those posts remain. Way different from what
*he* posts recently and on philosophical NGs not alt.hard.drugs and
alt.porn. He also took a screen name way back then including 'tao.'
Yes, I'm familiar with echelon. People need to get used to the fact that
every public conversation they have is being monitored. There is only one
defense available ~ living in the bright Light. That is why I have
published by phone number and advertised where I'll be. If anyone wants to
get in touch with me, they know how and where. LIBERATOR is a fiction and
no one has ever seen him nor knows how to contact him but Liber8tor
published his website and phone number, to-wit:
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
Think about it.
Chas
>> They ADMIT to trawling the internet, they BRAG about their internet
>> activities and how productive they have been. Are you missing all that?
> Yep. But nowhere do they mention you.
There are over 3500 people affected by the Spy Files in Denver alone- all of
which material goes to the JTTF unvetted. You'll notice that the media
emphasizes the influence on 'baby ducks'; the American Friends Service
League (Quakers), the Chiapas Nuns, the Peace in Space people and so on.
Their involvement with us, specifically, is mentioned in their internal
communications and reflected in their reports- which reports came in
Discovery to us and are available for viewing in their original format.
Remember that their primary concern for *years* was to keep their activities
secret. The Mayor of Denver (Webb) publicly denied the files existed; so did
the Manager of Safety, and several Chiefs of Police- that's not an
accusation, it's a publicly reported fact.
They've acknowledged their internet activities- bragged about them in the
Columbine investigation and in tracking 'Patriots', Tax Protesters, anti-War
activists, environmental activists- as well as a number of actual criminal
activities- identity theft, confidence games, preverts and so on.
The first thing they did to me was to demand my passwords, demand remote
access to my computer, download my correspondence/posting. Happily, as I
have nothing to hide, the only reserve I had was philosophical- their
unwarranted intrusion into my life in the first place.
>> Imagine how difficult it will become to hook fools off the internet if
>> everyone KNOWs the copsucking weasely govermin agents are actively
>> trawling!
> Then don't take the bait.
Nah- besides, it can only be done by a righteous man- one can't afford to
need secrecy- in order to expose their abuse of our Constitution and our
public trust.
> Steve the way you are reacting to this speaks volumes about the trouble
> you've had. Have your day in court and forget Libby. I hope you make the
> bastards pay.
They *wish* we'd confine it to 'court', or 'internal investigation', or
'administrative review'- that's the venue they control. Forcing them into
another arena may see 'rules' that are not quite as self-serving and
insular.
Like I said; I just got a settlement proposal from one of my Defendants. The
whole thrust of the offer was to put a gag order on the whole situation.
They spent half the substance of the offer in defining the scope of the gag
order (everyfuckingthing), and the sanctions for, essentially, telling the
truth.
There's only two reasons for acquiescing to law enforcement; a perception of
their integrity, fear of getting shot.
I'm old enough to remember the former, and too old to fear the latter.
Let's tell it *all*- there's enough truth to go around.
Chas
Grey Mouser West
Steve Gartin wrote:
> "Oliver T." <oli...@ftconsulting.com> wrote in message
> news:4293eeb7...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
> > On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:37:26 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
> > thunderrock dot net> wrote:
> >
> > >Hey Oliver T,
> > >
> > >What an unexpected honor to see you slither out from under your covert
> > >covering:
> >
> > Steve, now really. We have always had such polite discussions, in fact
> > I even pointed out during our discussions on religion that I was
> > impressed that you at least seemed to consistently walk the walk in
> > terms of trying to be tolerant, reasonable, and gentlemanly despite
> > whether we ultimately agree on the details. This is rather
> > disappointing. This time Chas was more polite, so you must forgive me
> > if perhaps I've struck a sensitive nerve.
> >
> No Oliver, I cannot justify your position other than that you are:
> A). a complete idiot
> B). another agent provocateur
Oh great! Now Oliver is part of the conspiracy too. Stop doing this.
Just stop. This behavior is not helping you in any way. Your real
enemies may have played some mind games with you with the hope that
they could get you to act like this and if that is the case then this
behavior plays right into their hands. Now you see them anywhere you
look no mater how silly it is. Go talk to someone who can help you
work through your post tramatic stress. Those who respect you on RMA
are trying to give you an intervention.
Chas
> The thing is Steve I highly doubt that Libby is a goverment program
> looking to entrap people. Waaaay too kooky.
Fraser; they *admit* there is such a program- the only question is not
whether the government is coming to look for you, it's whether 'libby' is
one of them.
The horror is not about libby- it's about false charging, false arrest,
false imprisonment, vindictive prosecution, witness tampering, obstruction
of justice, abuse under color of authority- all based on concealing
professional malfeasance in Jefferson County Colorado.
> I imagine most government programs would probably be hanging about on
> places like misc.survivalism and some of the Muslim boards.
Fraser, buddy; we're a 'Muslim' art from the largest muslim country in the
world, and the seat of some of the most violent inter-religious warfare
presently going on. You'll remember my being threatened a couple of times
for teaching a muslim art, as a christian. I've been threatened by a woman
translating for guys that didn't even speak english <g>
They've 'infiltrated' my practice groups in order to hear for themselves
what is taught- not once, several times. They've tried to provoke responses
of some sort, offered opportunities to get involved with negatory shit- the
whole 'agent provocateur' thing.
> PS do some research on the echelon system.
Nah; that's Gartin's thing-
See, I don't give a fuck. I have no expectation of privacy, or fair
treatment from the government. I'm not going after them, I'm protecting
myself from them- defending myself from the Courthouse Enterprise. I didn't
go pick a fight with these cocksuckers- they came at me, and look what's
happened to them already.
They shoulda left me alone.
Hell, that black judge-appointee, one of the women, was just going on about
how our Constitutional guarantees were set aside in the mid-1930's; same
shit Gartin's been hollerin' about for ten years.
Chas
T
> "Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote
>
>>>They ADMIT to trawling the internet, they BRAG about their internet
>>>activities and how productive they have been. Are you missing all that?
>>
>>Yep. But nowhere do they mention you.
>
>
> There are over 3500 people affected by the Spy Files in Denver alone- all of
> which material goes to the JTTF unvetted. You'll notice that the media
> emphasizes the influence on 'baby ducks'; the American Friends Service
> League (Quakers), the Chiapas Nuns, the Peace in Space people and so on.
> Their involvement with us, specifically, is mentioned in their internal
> communications and reflected in their reports- which reports came in
> Discovery to us and are available for viewing in their original format.
Online? Where?
> They've acknowledged their internet activities-
Have they specifically acknowledged trolling you on Usenet, or do they
acknowledge that their office, like every other office in the country,
uses the internet?
> a number of actual criminal
> activities- identity theft, confidence games, preverts and so on.
They acknowledged criminal behavior? Cite, please.
> The first thing they did to me was to demand my passwords, demand remote
> access to my computer, download my correspondence/posting. Happily, as I
> have nothing to hide, the only reserve I had was philosophical- their
> unwarranted intrusion into my life in the first place.
>
>
>>>Imagine how difficult it will become to hook fools off the internet if
>>>everyone KNOWs the govermin are actively trawling!
Fools are always easy.
Govermin, I like that.
Shuurai
> > > internet activities and how productive they have been. Are
> > > you missing all that?
> >
> > Yep. But nowhere do they mention you.
> >
> That's EXACTLY what I'm saying . . . it AIN'T all about Chas and I.
> They are doing this to anyone who hits a certain keyword. Are you
> aware of CARNIVORE or OMNIVORE? This was going on way before they
> picked our ticket.
Just a note, Carnivore and Omnivore have nothing to do with trawling.
They were sniffer programs that captured email based on keywords, but
at a very large scale. They were not designed to be selective or to
target individuals.
T
>
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
>>"Oliver T." <oli...@ftconsulting.com> wrote in message
>>news:4293eeb7...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
>>
>>>On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:37:26 -0600, "Steve Gartin" <steve at
>>>thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey Oliver T,
>>>>
>>>>What an unexpected honor to see you slither out from under your covert
>>>>covering:
>>>
>>>Steve, now really. We have always had such polite discussions, in fact
>>>I even pointed out during our discussions on religion that I was
>>>impressed that you at least seemed to consistently walk the walk in
>>>terms of trying to be tolerant, reasonable, and gentlemanly despite
>>>whether we ultimately agree on the details. This is rather
>>>disappointing. This time Chas was more polite, so you must forgive me
>>>if perhaps I've struck a sensitive nerve.
>>>
>>
>>No Oliver, I cannot justify your position other than that you are:
>>A). a complete idiot
>>B). another agent provocateur
Jesus.
> Oh great! Now Oliver is part of the conspiracy too. Stop doing this.
> Just stop. This behavior is not helping you in any way. Your real
> enemies may have played some mind games with you with the hope that
> they could get you to act like this and if that is the case then this
> behavior plays right into their hands. Now you see them anywhere you
> look no mater how silly it is. Go talk to someone who can help you
> work through your post tramatic stress. Those who respect you on RMA
> are trying to give you an intervention.
Paranoid schizophrenic?
Chas
> Sorry Steve but I figure you must have a big ego if you think that cops
> can afford to spend hours online a day at different locations just to
> prank with you. It just doesn't add up.
Actually, that's exactly what it does; add up.
You fail to factor in the Complaints for Damages that are in Federal Court-
these guys are at hazard, both personally and as agents for the
'administration', for millions of dollars and decades in prison.
> Also off topic libby posts where you aren't even mentioned have been going
> on for 8 or 9 years. Hell Libby was on this group when you were locked up
> talking shit about the Gracies.
I'm fully conversant with Libby- look back at the 'co.gen' group when the
trap was sprung on him at the Library- I was his only defender (be kind to
zipperheads perspective).
Libby was supposedly taken away to the rubber room- gone for six or seven
months- and when he came back, he was 'different'. You'll remember that he
was kinda lucid for a couple of months and then started in on me- he started
being far more provocative on a wider range of topics on a wide range of
groups. His whole personality changed- into several, different, 'styles'.
How useful would an 'established personality' be for an investigatory
agency? It would be like an undercover identity that is already credible, as
contrasted with having to spend time constructing a persona.
Accusations of paranoia aren't tenable because we have a long history of
them fucking with us- it's not a theory, it's a fact with a long and
well-documented history.
Chas
Fraser Johnston
"Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> Good morning Fraser,
>
> Yeah, I would have thought that if I were not personally acquainted with
> many of the JTTF members in Denver. They are goofy and inept beyond
> explanation. This is not even the stupidest thing they have got caught
> doing.
So getting them done for corruption should be easy. Right?
>
> You might recall that Chas postulated that the *real* LIBBY might be in a
> rubber room whilst LIBERATOR runs amok on the newsgroups. Well, last
> night
> I posted some of Liber8tor's early posts. Notice the startling
> differences.
> Notice that he plied other groups. Those posts were very consistent . . .
> like maybe b4 he went schizoid? Before he started locking the CAPS and
> getting really weird? Before a half dozen dimwit 'Intelligence Agents'
> started posting under the same name?
I'll have to check some old posts. Hell peoples styles change over time.
And insane people without help do tend to get wierder.
>
> As you read some of the commentary on Libby's old posts, you'll note that
> 'someone' was sterilizing his posts and removing them from the servers.
> Why
> would anyone be doing that? GDS mentioned that he had been following
> Libby
> since 97, but only a few of those posts remain. Way different from what
> *he* posts recently and on philosophical NGs not alt.hard.drugs and
> alt.porn. He also took a screen name way back then including 'tao.'
I guess he just had a no archive flag set on his posts. Also maybe he is
trolling where there is fish to catch.
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with echelon. People need to get used to the fact that
> every public conversation they have is being monitored. There is only one
> defense available ~ living in the bright Light.
Dude this sounds a bit kooky. Sure phone stuff and probably internet is
running through the echelon system. But not every public conversation. The
manpower would be incredible. What does living in the bright light mean?
Using 100 watt globes?
That is why I have
> published by phone number and advertised where I'll be. If anyone wants
> to
> get in touch with me, they know how and where. LIBERATOR is a fiction and
> no one has ever seen him nor knows how to contact him but Liber8tor
> published his website and phone number, to-wit:
>
> The Liber8r
>
> The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
>
> lib...@mcs.com
>
> 1-708-222-3050 x4021
>
> http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
>
>
>
> Think about it.
Long time ago Steve. Not surprised this information is out of date. Hard
to pay your isp and the telco when you are eating trash out of a dumpster.
Fraser
Grey Mouser West
Steve Gartin wrote:
> > Mark Zhan is an insane man who trolls usenet in order to gain
> > attention. I base that assessment on the sum of his post which I have
> > been sampling since 1997.
> >
> What in the world would someone have to gain when they have never been seen?
> What good would attention do a non-existent entity? Do you postulate that
> he is going to *suddenly* reveal himself and extol his virtues for having
> *deceived* the world?
Nope.
> Why would a homeless psycho spend all night trawling
> the internet with every conceivable *conspiracy* theory, racial-hate rant
> and bizarre theories . . .
The man is insane. His motivation will seem crazy to a normal person
but it makes sense to him. On the other hand you real enemies are sane
so their behavior will be rational.
> ~ interspersed with pleas for information on the very
> OPERATIONS that the FBI/DEA/DOJ/CIA are working on at that very point in
> time?
Please. And no burring me under a mountain of unrelated evidence or
websites will not make the idea seem any more reasonable.
> Why would a homeless psycho have high-speed internet access with at
> least a dozen screen names that we know about?
As if this is hard to do.
> I'm truly interested in how you might explain all that friend. I'm not
> yanking your chain here ~ a theory would be fine . . . if you have one.
>
> Peace,
>
> Steve
> www.courtofpublicopinion.net {under construction}
My theory is that you have been through a horrible ordeal and the
experience has effected your ability to recognize coincidence. Over
the years Mark Zhan has targeted a lot of the RMA regulars. I think
there was even a time when he targeted me. You were the only one who
got pissed about it and went to war with him over it. Because of your
reaction Zhan is a bit more obsessed with you than he would have been
otherwise. Talking about you gives him some of that attention he
craves so much. If you stop giving him so much attention his interest
in you will begin to fade. However at this point it will never
disappear completely. He will always be a bit obsessed with you until
the day he dies or is cured.
Badger North
thunderrock dot net> wrote:
>I'm not jest a pretty face . . .
At least there's still your modeling career if martial arts doesn't
work out.
>Let it go, Bro . . . jest lurk and see how it all turns out.
Fair enough. You know I'm 100% on your side in your fight for
redress. I just think there are some side fights that you are rolling
into the main mess that just don't belong there. However, I'll butt
out.
Steve Gartin
Why is it OK for everyone out here to poke fun and play games except me?
Oliver T is one of the very few people out here who actually do their
homework before engaging in spirited repartee. I know it ain't B). . . or
at least I don't think so. I don't think he did his homework b4 sticking
his head up in this case and he took a really ignorant position to boot ~ as
in A). I'd almost wager that he is researching even now and we will end up
having a good discussion about some of the real issues and not a bunch of
name calling, acccusations and apologia for cowardice.
I know he ain't an idiot either, but we've been through this ignorance issue
before and I was nice about it . . . I'm a little edgy about copsuckers
threatening my Teacher and his wife ~ they really take that sort of stuff
seriously. Did I tell you about the 80 year old man the SWATzis *took down*
~ {face down in the street - hands cuffed behind his back} stuck machine
guns in his ear and forcefully interrogated him for being kind enough to
give me a ride from a real estate meeting? Terrified that poor old man . .
. he still freaks everytime he hears a siren. Joint Terrorism Task Farce
indeed . . . friggin' terrorists!
Oliver T is far to literate to be a copsucker. If you'd have read any of
the police/FBI reports I've published it would be obvious to you. The
Aurora Police Department has actually placed an I.Q. ceiling on their new
hirlings. 'Dumb cops' is not the exception to the rule and 'Sheriff's
Inteligence' is jest an oxymoron ~ www.docslaw.com/Conspiracy.htm ~ relax
Grap, I'm not talking about you.
Don't worry about *intervening* Grey Gato ~ we've got this well in hand.
Now that we know who it is that's pranking with us, why, and who they're
associated with, there is some comeuppance coming up. Wouldn't much surprise
me if they foot the bill for my PTSS 'therapy' . . .
Get them rodents ~ leave the vermin to me :-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Steve
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Grey Mouser West
Chas wrote:
> "Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote
> > Sorry Steve but I figure you must have a big ego if you think that cops
> > can afford to spend hours online a day at different locations just to
> > prank with you. It just doesn't add up.
>
> Actually, that's exactly what it does; add up.
> You fail to factor in the Complaints for Damages that are in Federal Court-
> these guys are at hazard, both personally and as agents for the
> 'administration', for millions of dollars and decades in prison.
That does not explain how it adds up. What do these guys gain for
taking this risk and investing their time?
> > Also off topic libby posts where you aren't even mentioned have been going
> > on for 8 or 9 years. Hell Libby was on this group when you were locked up
> > talking shit about the Gracies.
>
> I'm fully conversant with Libby- look back at the 'co.gen' group when the
> trap was sprung on him at the Library- I was his only defender (be kind to
> zipperheads perspective).
> Libby was supposedly taken away to the rubber room- gone for six or seven
> months- and when he came back, he was 'different'.
Wouldn't you expect psyc treatment to have some effect?
> You'll remember that he
> was kinda lucid for a couple of months and then started in on me- he started
> being far more provocative on a wider range of topics on a wide range of
> groups. His whole personality changed- into several, different, 'styles'.
No it did not. He just moved on to topics that gave him the attention
he craved. It is consistent with his behavior since 1997. He has
always added new targets and new delusions over time. When a new one
does not generate attention he drops it. Up till now he has had the
most success with Steve and Hitler so I expect him to stick to those
two.
> How useful would an 'established personality' be for an investigatory
> agency?
Useful to what end? What could they gain out of all of this? If you
think that your behavior and Steve's behavior has foiled the JTTF's
plans then what do you think they expected you to do? Was their plan
to insult the two of you and that is all because you guys would remain
silent? And then you guys didn't remain silent so now the JTTF agents
have to spend their lunch breaks posting Nazi rants in order to protect
their cover? How long will that have to go on? Are they going to
impersonate Liberator until they retire? This is not making any sense.
> It would be like an undercover identity that is already credible, as
> contrasted with having to spend time constructing a persona.
That still does not tell us what they would gain by investing their
time and taking such risks.
> Accusations of paranoia aren't tenable because we have a long history of
> them fucking with us-
You have just given yourself a license to make any claim you like about
the joint terrorism task force. No matter how silly the claim making
it is not paranoia because of your real history? Mark Zhan's interest
in you is a coincidence.
> it's not a theory, it's a fact with a long and
> well-documented history.
Nobody is disputing your real trouble with your real enemies. The
point of dispute is 'would they gain anything by taking over
liberator's screen name and spend years trolling usenet making insane
rants, racial slurs and praising Hitler'.
Chas
>.....But unless
> Willem gave his full blessing that you go online and challenge local
> law enforcement to "bring it on" after his family was threatened, that
> is very inconsiderate of you.
Actually, he did.
He and Joyce both are anxious to expose Orlando, and to publicize the
threats and failure to act by the authorities- in essence, nothing to do
with Gartin at all.
Gartin didn't tell Bob to steal the logo, or jump in front of the Brothers
to be published- much less to promote kempo disguised as kts. Bob chose the
public venue- and now seems to be uncomfortable with public response.
>......You posted
> about Willem's wife being scared, and what we saw was this sequence:
> Someone named Bob who claims to be a student of Bob Orlando's or some
> such posted about him, you jumped in with the usual rant about how Bob
> doesn't do what you do etc. etc., next thing you know someone is
> threatening Willem's family *because* of that, demanding that *you*
> stop.
You ignore the long history- this isn't an isolated event, but another event
in a long procession of events.
And it isn't even isolated to Bob- he's simply the one that popped his
little round head up this time.
> Wouldn't that be a whole lot more sensible than slandering people
> online and lowering yourself, and by extension Willem, to deal with
> criminals who would make threatening phonecalls?
The complete defense to 'slander' is that it's the truth-
You'll notice that not one of the people/companies/agencies we've identified
has come forward with any defense- they have none.
Identifying assholes- who then resort to threats- isn't the genesis of the
situation. They're being assholes in the first place, and borne out by their
resolution to criminal threats, is the problem.
> However, I can certainly see that as a Muslim, Willem's association
> with someone who is branded a Patriot and anti-government nutball by
> the FBI and local law enforcement invites more scrutiny in these
> times.
It's the Solsynitzen Gambit- accusations that become 'truths'; conspiracy
theorist, paranoid mental case, anti-government activist-
same as in Russia.
> I can see people thinking he's training a cell of
> anti-government, knife-toting screwballs. ;) Having a close
> association with you is clearly not sensible on his part, maybe he is
> also wacky enough to enjoy this sort of constant nonsense.
You find government corruption amusing?
>.....Get real, no offense to Willem, but what on earth could
> constitute such "dirty laundry" in the life of a Dutch-Indonesian
> immigrant martial artist that anyone could possibly care about it?!?
Whatever it is, some blackmailer thought he could extort with it- and when
that didn't work, resort to physical threats.
>....At least 6 years of online
> ranting about Masons, missing 14th amendments, admiralty courts, you
> name it, and still going strong.
Six years ago was ten years into the fight, and well after we started having
to research what they were calling us.
And, if you're watching the fight over judges being approved, you'll notice
the black lady saying exactly the same thing- the Constitutional guarantees
being abrogated in the mid-1930's.
It's not a fantasy- and it's getting to become common knowledge for a lot of
people from all walks of life.
> The fact that there are all sorts of
> new medications doesn't seem to have changed anything. ;)
So you think we went spontaneously crazy- an isolated expression of dementia
that isn't reflected in any other aspect of our lives?
How droll.
> At last! I was wondering when your paranoia would rise to the level of
> thinking I'm some sort of government agent. Priceless. :)
one does have to wonder why you find protest more compelling than the
evidence of government wrongdoing. One has to wonder why you think the
exposure of blackmailers and extortion is more culpable than the acts
themselves. One wonders why a history of more than a decade of unfounded
personal interference by government agents in their own self-interest is
ignored, and the inference of mental illness is your only resolution.
> But
> seriously, you again avoid the simple point: you posted the diatribe
> that provoked some criminal (as only a criminal, even a badge-wearing
> one, would make threatening phonecalls) to threaten Willem et al, yet
> you avoid any responsibility.
There's always a hazard in exposing criminals- particularly ones with guns,
and badges, and the administration of the legal system.
The crime is their acts, not the exposure of them.
They *wish* that their threats would have worked and we would have kept
silent in fear.
they wish.
> You carp about other people's character,
> why can you not step up and admit you are the protruding nail that
> openly invites the hammer, and the fallout affects those who associate
> with you?
So you figure that someone with enough balls to stand up for a social ideal
is foolish, and those who 'go along to get along' are superior in character?
How unfortunate for us all if you're the standard for integrity.
>.....Willem is doing himself no favors having
> you as his apparent online spokesman.
You think Roger 'the Wormtongue' Brockman is a better choice? or Orlando? or
Janich? or Simonet? Kelli Worden? Sam Edwards? Don Miller?
You would give him over to pickpockets, opportunists and poseurs?
> Please clarify: you, Steve Gartin, assume FULL responsibility for
> agitating the Enemies of Gartin such that Willem's wife became fearful
> for the lives of her family members?
You mean producing a product so attractive that Willem and Joyce became a
target for extortioners, thieves and mimics?
You mean exposing criminals who see fit to threaten with blackmail, and
physical harm?
You mean relating the history of their pattern of such acts?
> Still it's only fair that an attempt be made to
> make him understand what you do here and how it impacts his family.
They've been whining for years about being exposed publicly- Bill is
completely supportive, as is Joyce. *They* initiated the response to the
thieves, opportunists, incompetants and poseurs.
That's probably wherein your perspective is most flawed.
> Actually the record here shows that you did in fact fan the flames of
> this current chain of events, that was the entire point of my post.
That might be germane if there wasn't a long history of trouble with the
same guys- it's interesting that they're so threatened by exposure that they
seem to resort to dire threats, extortion and blackmail.
> Talk to God, Steve,
I stay in prayer before the Lord that He guide my hand and intent in all
things. If I didn't feel both justified and responsible, I would have rolled
over for these motherfuckers years ago.
> .... Didn't the court-ordered
> psych eval peg you with narcissistic personality disorder or something
> along those lines?
That was hilarious- you'd have to know the whole story to appreciate it, but
Gartin starts from the presupposition of innocence betrayed, Tobey starts
from the presupposition of guilt and a necessary admission and remorse.
You'll notice that everybody agrees that Gartin has been well and truly
fucked by 'actors under color of authority', and their philosophical
position is that he should be more afraid of them and quit fighting back.
Interesting how they can be so casual and accepting of such corruption and
malfeasance, and so horrified by even the concept of holding them
accountable for it.
Chas
Chas
Chas
>....which reports came in
>> Discovery to us and are available for viewing in their original format.
> Online? Where?
I think it's all on www.docslaw.com. Gartin scanned about a gazillion
documents of which those are part.
> Have they specifically acknowledged trolling you on Usenet, or do they
> acknowledge that their office, like every other office in the country,
> uses the internet?
They've acknowledged that they specifically troll the web looking for
responses.
>> a number of actual criminal activities- identity theft, confidence games,
>> preverts and so on.
> They acknowledged criminal behavior? Cite, please.
They acknowledge that in addition to politically motivated investigations,
that they also do investigations to provoke criminal responses.
Chas
T
> "Oliver T." <oli...@ftconsulting.com> wrote
>
>>.....But unless
>>Willem gave his full blessing that you go online and challenge local
>>law enforcement to "bring it on" after his family was threatened, that
>>is very inconsiderate of you.
>
>
> Actually, he did.
> He and Joyce both are anxious to expose Orlando, and to publicize the
> threats and failure to act by the authorities- in essence, nothing to do
> with Gartin at all.
> Gartin didn't tell Bob to steal the logo, or jump in front of the Brothers
> to be published- much less to promote kempo disguised as kts. Bob chose the
> public venue- and now seems to be uncomfortable with public response.
Filing a lawsuit and sending out press releases would be reasonable steps.
>
>>......You posted
>>about Willem's wife being scared, and what we saw was this sequence:
>>Someone named Bob who claims to be a student of Bob Orlando's or some
>>such posted about him, you jumped in with the usual rant about how Bob
>>doesn't do what you do etc. etc., next thing you know someone is
>>threatening Willem's family *because* of that, demanding that *you*
>>stop.
>
> You ignore the long history- this isn't an isolated event, but another event
> in a long procession of events.
Five billion years ago....
> And it isn't even isolated to Bob- he's simply the one that popped his
> little round head up this time.
Try solving your problems one at a time; I don't think y'all are smart
enough for synergistic solutions.
No offense, sir.
>>Wouldn't that be a whole lot more sensible than slandering people
>>online and lowering yourself, and by extension Willem, to deal with
>>criminals who would make threatening phonecalls?
>
> The complete defense to 'slander' is that it's the truth-
Did you understand the question? Rephrased: go do something useful instead.
> You'll notice that not one of the people/companies/agencies we've identified
> has come forward with any defense- they have none.
The guy who accused me of being a teenage boy hasn't gotten proof of
anything, either. Could mean I'm a teenage boy; could mean he's a kook
unworthy of my time and attention.
> Identifying assholes- who then resort to threats- isn't the genesis of the
> situation. They're being assholes in the first place, and borne out by their
> resolution to criminal threats, is the problem.
They're govermin (great word), of course they're arrogant assholes.
>
>>However, I can certainly see that as a Muslim, Willem's association
>>with someone who is branded a Patriot and anti-government nutball by
>>the FBI and local law enforcement invites more scrutiny in these
>>times.
>
> It's the Solsynitzen Gambit- accusations that become 'truths'; conspiracy
> theorist, paranoid mental case, anti-government activist-
> same as in Russia.
There are nutballs everywhere, sure. Conflating getting tossed onto a
gulag with having some kook post about you on usenet is rich.
>
>>I can see people thinking he's training a cell of
>>anti-government, knife-toting screwballs. ;) Having a close
>>association with you is clearly not sensible on his part, maybe he is
>>also wacky enough to enjoy this sort of constant nonsense.
>
> You find government corruption amusing?
Your assumption that Libby's a govermin op is amusing.
>
>>Get real, no offense to Willem, but what on earth could
>>constitute such "dirty laundry" in the life of a Dutch-Indonesian
>>immigrant martial artist that anyone could possibly care about it?!?
>
> Whatever it is, some blackmailer thought he could extort with it- and when
> that didn't work, resort to physical threats.
>
Why would a physical threat bother a silat guru?
>
>>....At least 6 years of online
>>ranting about Masons, missing 14th amendments, admiralty courts, you
>>name it, and still going strong.
>
> Six years ago was ten years into the fight, and well after we started having
> to research what they were calling us.
> And, if you're watching the fight over judges being approved, you'll notice
> the black lady saying exactly the same thing- the Constitutional guarantees
> being abrogated in the mid-1930's.
> It's not a fantasy- and it's getting to become common knowledge for a lot of
> people from all walks of life.
>
>>The fact that there are all sorts of
>>new medications doesn't seem to have changed anything. ;)
>
> So you think we went spontaneously crazy- an isolated expression of dementia
> that isn't reflected in any other aspect of our lives?
I wouldn't say that.
> How droll.
Indeed; let's just gloss over your art, hairstyle, misogyny, eloquence,
loyalty, ferocity....
>
>>At last! I was wondering when your paranoia would rise to the level of
>>thinking I'm some sort of government agent. Priceless. :)
>
> one does have to wonder why you find protest more compelling than the
> evidence of government wrongdoing. One has to wonder why you think the
> exposure of blackmailers and extortion is more culpable than the acts
> themselves. One wonders why a history of more than a decade of unfounded
> personal interference by government agents in their own self-interest is
> ignored, and the inference of mental illness is your only resolution.
One might note that such thoughts are not uncommon, and seek an
alternative explanation.
>
>>seriously, you again avoid the simple point: you posted the diatribe
>>that provoked some criminal (as only a criminal, even a badge-wearing
>>one, would make threatening phonecalls) to threaten Willem et al, yet
>>you avoid any responsibility.
>
> There's always a hazard in exposing criminals- particularly ones with guns,
> and badges, and the administration of the legal system.
Does that mean that y'all acknowledge your culpability?
> The crime is their acts, not the exposure of them.
Does that mean that y'all don't acknowledge your culpability?
> They *wish* that their threats would have worked and we would have kept
> silent in fear.
> they wish.
Me too. ;-)
>
>>You carp about other people's character,
>>why can you not step up and admit you are the protruding nail that
>>openly invites the hammer, and the fallout affects those who associate
>>with you?
>
> So you figure that someone with enough balls to stand up for a social ideal
> is foolish, and those who 'go along to get along' are superior in character?
'Brave' and 'prudent', I'd've said, noting that bravery, in this case,
includes a willingness to risk your friends.
> How unfortunate for us all if you're the standard for integrity.
Back at ya.
>
>>.....Willem is doing himself no favors having
>>you as his apparent online spokesman.
>
> You think Roger 'the Wormtongue' Brockman is a better choice? or Orlando? or
> Janich? or Simonet? Kelli Worden? Sam Edwards? Don Miller?
> You would give him over to pickpockets, opportunists and poseurs?
Maybe someone who cared about him, instead of abstracts or money or the
art.
>
>>Please clarify: you, Steve Gartin, assume FULL responsibility for
>>agitating the Enemies of Gartin such that Willem's wife became fearful
>>for the lives of her family members?
>
> You mean producing a product so attractive that Willem and Joyce became a
> target for extortioners, thieves and mimics?
> You mean exposing criminals who see fit to threaten with blackmail, and
> physical harm?
Without slapping them down, anyway; if you did it with a lawsuit or
press releases, the consequences to Willem wouldn't be nearly so wide-open.
> You mean relating the history of their pattern of such acts?
>
>>Still it's only fair that an attempt be made to
>>make him understand what you do here and how it impacts his family.
>
> They've been whining for years about being exposed publicly- Bill is
> completely supportive, as is Joyce. *They* initiated the response to the
> thieves, opportunists, incompetants and poseurs.
Where? Cite, please.
> That's probably wherein your perspective is most flawed.
>
>>Actually the record here shows that you did in fact fan the flames of
>>this current chain of events, that was the entire point of my post.
>
> That might be germane if there wasn't a long history of trouble with the
> same guys- it's interesting that they're so threatened by exposure that they
> seem to resort to dire threats, extortion and blackmail.
Perhaps you should try something other than 'exposure', then, genius.
No offense, sir.
> That was hilarious- you'd have to know the whole story to appreciate it, but
> Gartin starts from the presupposition of innocence betrayed, Tobey starts
> from the presupposition of guilt and a necessary admission and remorse.
> You'll notice that everybody agrees that Gartin has been well and truly
> fucked by 'actors under color of authority', and their philosophical
> position is that he should be more afraid of them and quit fighting back.
> Interesting how they can be so casual and accepting of such corruption and
> malfeasance, and so horrified by even the concept of holding them
> accountable for it.
A real vigilante would be dealing with completely different legal issues
by now.
Fraser Johnston
Personally Chas I think they now have bigger fish to fry. I understand
where you are coming from. But I don't see how major jew rant posts from
Libby that don't even mention you come into this. And all the Chos stuff
and Dawn and Virginia. And don't even get me started on Speilburg.
Fraser
T
>>
>>Online? Where?
>
> I think it's all on www.docslaw.com. Gartin scanned about a gazillion
> documents of which those are part.
So you don't know.
>
>>Have they specifically acknowledged trolling you on Usenet, or do they
>>acknowledge that their office, like every other office in the country,
>>uses the internet?
>
> They've acknowledged that they specifically troll the web looking for
> responses.
That would be doubly no; not you, and not Usenet.
>>>a number of actual criminal activities- identity theft, confidence games,
>>>preverts and so on.
>>
>>They acknowledged criminal behavior? Cite, please.
>
> They acknowledge that in addition to politically motivated investigations,
> that they also do investigations to provoke criminal responses.
That would be no; sting ops are not criminal.
>
> Chas
Chas
> So getting them done for corruption should be easy. Right?
Actually, the courthouse enterprise has a very strong mechanism for
disposing of corruption complaints.
We exhausted the administrative remedies before taking them to Federal
Court- that can take *years*. First we went to the Internal Affairs, then to
the supervisory administration, then to the DA, then to the judges, then to
the judges'/attorney regulation counsel, the Chief Disciplinary Justice of
the Supreme Court, the Department of Justice, the FBI and so on.
Only after that kind of movement through the 'chain of command' can you go
to Court.
> Dude this sounds a bit kooky. Sure phone stuff and probably internet is
> running through the echelon system. But not every public conversation.
> The manpower would be incredible.
It's done electronically, and flagged for human review-
And the manpower to do it effectively is what they're always whining about
at budget time.
> What does living in the bright light mean? Using 100 watt globes?
Living in full public view-
We have nothing to hide; they do. Exposing them, over and over again, is the
most effective weapon against them.
They *want* people to be afraid of having their privacies exposed- it's one
of their first weapons against activists or perceived dissidents. They have
no mechanism for dealing with righteous men.
Chas
Chas
> work through your post tramatic stress. Those who respect you on RMA
> are trying to give you an intervention.
So you figure that we just went spontaneously nuts- like Solsynitzen?
Mental illness just crept up and took us away- except in every other aspect
of our lives?
You figure that the other 3498 people similarly treated in this area are all
'paranoid' too?
You figure that the ACLU suit against the JTTF, now gone national due to
it's pervasive nature, is an expression of similar mental illness?
You believe that 'Libby' is a homeless derelict who just happens to have
high-tech access any time of the day or night and simply targets us because
he's mentally ill too?
There's a lot of it going around, isn't there?
You should be careful- you know, lest it strike you as well.
Chas
Steve Gartin
news:1117031658.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Steve Gartin wrote:
>
> > > Mark Zhan is an insane man who trolls usenet in order to gain
> > > attention. I base that assessment on the sum of his post which I have
> > > been sampling since 1997.
> > >
***Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 244 for liber8r@ mcs . com (0.39
seconds)***
This is just one post, but tell me you don't notice several unusual things.
_____________________________________
It's censorship, not libby, that's important. I know myself enough to tell
you that.
\"The Liberator\"
Dec 17 1997, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: "\"The Liberator\"" <libe...@mcs.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 1997/12/17
Subject: It's censorship, not libby, that's important. I know myself enough
to tell you that.
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse
Hey:
What would make me MORE happy is to discuss ANYTHING else.
I mean it.
However, the censorship slant is an interesting one, don't you think?
--
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
libe...@mcs.com
1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
> > What in the world would someone have to gain when they have never been
seen?
> > What good would attention do a non-existent entity? Do you postulate
that
> > he is going to *suddenly* reveal himself and extol his virtues for
having
> > *deceived* the world?
>
>
> Nope.
>
>
> > Why would a homeless psycho spend all night trawling
> > the internet with every conceivable *conspiracy* theory, racial-hate
rant
> > and bizarre theories . . .
>
>
> The man is insane. His motivation will seem crazy to a normal person
> but it makes sense to him. On the other hand you real enemies are sane
> so their behavior will be rational.
>
You still haven't figured out what an agent provocateur is. I'll not burden
you with the Disinformationist link again.
>
> > ~ interspersed with pleas for information on the very
> > OPERATIONS that the FBI/DEA/DOJ/CIA are working on at that very point in
> > time?
>
>
> Please. And no burring me under a mountain of unrelated evidence or
> websites will not make the idea seem any more reasonable.
>
Ok, I'm going to give you only three things to consider on this one point.
1. Linoge0983
Dec 6 2004, 11:06 pm
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.hard
From: linog...@aol.com (Linoge0983) - Find messages by this author
Date: 07 Dec 2004 04:06:20 GMT
Local: Mon,Dec 6 2004 11:06 pm
Subject: what kind of dr to see for oxy script
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
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also any adive about how to sucessfully broach the subject /
thanks
2. http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/major/liberator.html
3. http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/index.htm
International Internet Drug Ring Shattered
E-Traffickers Arrested: Indian/Costa Rican/U.S. Cyber Criminal Alliances
Shut Down
APR 20--Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Karen P. Tandy
today announced the results of Operation "Cyber Chase", a year-long
Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) investigation that
targeted international Internet pharmaceutical traffickers operating in the
United States, India, Asia, Europe and the Caribbean. These e-traffickers
distributed drugs world-wide using "rogue" Internet pharmacies.
Full Story>> - - Administrator's Speech>>
Is It Illegal to Obtain Controlled Substances From the Internet?>>
>
> > Why would a homeless psycho have high-speed internet access with at
> > least a dozen screen names that we know about?
>
>
> As if this is hard to do.
OK, why don't you jest find a 24HourLibrary and prove that?
There is another logical explanation from the Rocky Mountain News:
>
The 'war room'
Monday morning, six days after the tragedy, the task force moved from
Columbine to its new home at the Taj Mahal, the nickname for the Jefferson
County government building in Golden. County commissioners cleared out
west-wing offices to make room.
The area would be collectively known as the "war room," but it was actually
several rooms. One, about 20 feet by 20 feet, held only computers -- Rapid
Start, word processors and machines that let investigators access the
Internet and the Colorado and national crime databases. Another was
divided -- part work space, part telephones. Three other rooms housed
investigators.
The CBI, which handles most lab work for police and sheriff's departments
across the state, took on the ballistics testing. It was a big job --
evidence recovered at the school showed that Harris and Klebold fired nearly
200 rounds.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
Do you think they jest *dismantled* the place after the Columbine CoverUp?
>
> > I'm truly interested in how you might explain all that friend. I'm not
> > yanking your chain here ~ a theory would be fine . . . if you have one.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Steve
> > www.courtofpublicopinion.net {under construction}
>
>
> My theory is that you have been through a horrible ordeal and the
> experience has effected your ability to recognize coincidence. Over
> the years Mark Zhan has targeted a lot of the RMA regulars. I think
> there was even a time when he targeted me. You were the only one who
> got pissed about it and went to war with him over it. Because of your
> reaction Zhan is a bit more obsessed with you than he would have been
> otherwise. Talking about you gives him some of that attention he
> craves so much. If you stop giving him so much attention his interest
> in you will begin to fade. However at this point it will never
> disappear completely. He will always be a bit obsessed with you until
> the day he dies or is cured.
>
And there is another perfectly logical explanation from the Rocky Mountain
News:
Donald l. Estep, 49, would lead the Friends and Associates Team.
An undercover cop who specialized in examining radical organizations, Estep
favored jeans and work shirts over the suits and ties of his FBI colleagues.
With a full beard and shock of dark unkempt hair, Estep looked as if he
could walk into any biker bar and never draw a suspicious glance.
But his appearance belied a hard-headed attitude toward crime that had
earned the respect of officers across the metro area during his 27-year
career.
Estep's team would look at every friendship of Harris and Klebold, every
co-worker, anyone who had regular contact with them or knowledge of their
activities.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
Oh yeah, they're obsessed about me, sure enough.
www.docslaw.com/estep.htm
Steve Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Chas
>> You fail to factor in the Complaints for Damages that are in Federal
>> Court-
>> these guys are at hazard, both personally and as agents for the
>> 'administration', for millions of dollars and decades in prison.
> That does not explain how it adds up. What do these guys gain for
> taking this risk and investing their time?
They've been trying to escape the consequences of their acts for some time
now- and they've tried all sorts of mechanisms for doing it.
They (all Defendants to Federal Complaints for damages) are in hazard of
losing their personal substance, being responsible for their organizations
being judged for damages, personal time in prison (decades), and the end to
their career at the trough.
And it's their specialty; Hostlaw is specifically assigned to internet
surveillance- Estep is the same. No reason to think that they'd ignore their
best shot.
>> Libby was supposedly taken away to the rubber room- gone for six or seven
>> months- and when he came back, he was 'different'.
> Wouldn't you expect psyc treatment to have some effect?
Not by any evidence so far.
You either believe that Libby was a stalker kook that got taken to the
rubber room and released to repeat his fantasies in only six months, or can
entertain the idea that his persona was appropriated by the same internet
cops that caught him in the first place.
Incidentally, there is no official record of any such arrest, nor of anyone
named Mark Zahn in any database available to professional investigators.
Google the long exhange and hunt for him on 'co.gen', culminating with the
supposed trapping, arrest and incarceration of 'Libby'. Then look at his
return, the short period of lucidity and the immediate entry into subjects
he had never before evinced interest in.
Take it back to 'liber8tor' and before that to 'gr8tao' for a look at his
style and content.
>.....If you
> think that your behavior and Steve's behavior has foiled the JTTF's
> plans then what do you think they expected you to do?
I think they expected us, and me in particular, to coward out; roll over and
lie. Remember that the JTTF is made up of *local* leo's and administrators-
it's just a national clearing house for information.
> That still does not tell us what they would gain by investing their
> time and taking such risks.
Well, so far it's been sufficient to keep the Federal Complaints from
rigorous prosecution- that's ending though.
"Libby" is only one aspect of their internet attacks on us. They've done
stuff to us that required information that neither Gartin nor I had
independently, and only accessible to someone who had information from both
of us; credit card numbers, complex passwords to administrate websites or do
commercial business, redirections to the FBI themselves- much less the
various viral attacks and so on.
> You have just given yourself a license to make any claim you like about
> the joint terrorism task force. No matter how silly the claim making
> it is not paranoia because of your real history?
Well, yeah.
You have to presuppose mental illness on my behalf in order to refute
*anything*. The documented history is replete with them using such tactics
against us- all the way from suborning perjury to co-opting counsel to gross
abuse of the Grand Jury process and false criminal charges.
What makes you think that internet investigators that need to cover their
collective ass' or face significant jailtime and judgment for damages would
hesitate to use their training in such a way?
> Nobody is disputing your real trouble with your real enemies. The
> point of dispute is 'would they gain anything by taking over
> liberator's screen name and spend years trolling usenet making insane
> rants, racial slurs and praising Hitler'.
Yeah- it's amazing that you guys would be fascinated by such trivialities.
You've got Mark Hostlaw pretending to be a 14 yr. old girl, trawling for
pedophiles- surely pretending to be some other sort of provocateur isn't
beyond his capacity.
What do you think 'internet detectives/investigators' do?
Really- how do you think they occupy their time?
You think trolling is beyond them; or not a necessary and useful tool in
investigation?
Chas
Chas
> experience has effected your ability to recognize coincidence.
It's interesting that you see a dozen events as 'coincidence'.
> Over
> the years Mark Zhan has targeted a lot of the RMA regulars. I think
> there was even a time when he targeted me. You were the only one who
> got pissed about it and went to war with him over it.
Let's stip that Libby is a single person; is he local to you, he is to me.
Has he threatened your family; he has mine. Has he threatened to ambush you,
break your bones or kill you; he has me. Did he go on for *years* with you;
he has me. Did he e-mail you or call you on the phone; he did us.
> .....If you stop giving him so much attention his interest
> in you will begin to fade.
That's something your kindergarten teacher said, isn't it?
Chas
T
> You've got Mark Hostlaw pretending to be a 14 yr. old girl, trawling for
> pedophiles- surely pretending to be some other sort of provocateur isn't
> beyond his capacity.
> What do you think 'internet detectives/investigators' do?
> Really- how do you think they occupy their time?
> You think trolling is beyond them; or not a necessary and useful tool in
> investigation?
>
> Chas
So Hostlaw baits them into committing crimes so he can arrest them.
So Estep is trying to bait you into- what? Making a run at him? You
think he has the stones for that?
Steve Gartin
> "Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote
> > The thing is Steve I highly doubt that Libby is a goverment program
> > looking to entrap people. Waaaay too kooky.
>
Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 244 for liber8r@ mcs . com (0.39
seconds)
Liber8r <--Hey that's me!
... we all know why he needs to keep his real address a secret, don't we?>>
Heck I use
a lot of e-mail addresses: webmas...@liberator.net, lib...@mcs.com, and a
...
alt.religion.universal-life - Mar 9 2000, 12:44 pm by liberator - 5
messages - 4 authors
Joy can be yours FOR FREE with me.
... say? If anyone would like to bend an ear with someone who is sincere,
I'll gladly do it FOR FREE. Contact me at lib...@mcs.com. I ...
alt.religion.universal-life - Apr 21 1998, 6:58 pm by QueenShra - 20
messages - 7 authors
did I hear the word 'moderate'?
... The Liber8r The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site
respectively:
lib...@mcs.com http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r Hey guys, I dislike ...
alt.philosophy.taoism - Mar 10 1998, 3:54 am by \"The Liberator\" - 38
messages - 17 authors
observations
-- The Liber8r The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site
respectively: lib...@mcs.com 1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r Dude ...
alt.philosophy.taoism - Mar 6 1998, 12:28 am by Icehouse - 5 messages - 4
authors
"0 * infinity =?"
... ZERO. -- The Liber8r The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and
web site
respectively: lib...@mcs.com 1-708-222-3050 x4021 http://www.mcs.net ...
sci.math - Mar 5 1998, 7:27 pm by Robert J. Pease - 18 messages - 13 authors
How To Please God
First, you are assuming we should please God. God loves me and you whether
we please him/her or not. Second, don't you folks ever ...
alt.religion.universal-life - Mar 5 1998, 12:22 am by Tom - 4 messages - 4
authors
10 Reasons Why Not To Follow Organized Religions
The Top Ten Reasons Why Not To Follow Organized Religions by The Liber8r
1.All religious
books--including The Bible--were written by humans. So? ...
alt.philosophy.taoism - Mar 4 1998, 4:38 pm by Christopher Hayden - 7
messages - 7 authors
Help in Problem Solving
... I bet it will work. -) -- The Liber8r The Liber8r can be reached by
e-mail, voicemail
and web site respectively: lib...@mcs.com 1-708-222-3050 x4021 http://www
...
alt.teachers.lesson-planning - Mar 3 1998, 4:54 pm by \"The Liberator\" - 2
messages - 2 authors
Math/Science site
I would like to supply teachers and students with my mathematics/science
related web site. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi ...
sci.math - Mar 1 1998, 5:01 pm by \"The Liberator\" - 1 message - 1 author
> Fraser; they *admit* there is such a program- the only question is not
> whether the government is coming to look for you, it's whether 'libby' is
> one of them.
Now take a look at *him* now:
Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 843 for liberator @linuxmail. org
(0.27 seconds)
purposeful sabotage
I've said I've been sabotaged time & time again. Art Goodtimes shows his
working county government was sabotaged purposely by the ...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 10:10 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Holocaust facts censored, holocaust untrue
You obviously didn't read anything. I dont blame you it wasn't in legible
form. But clearly you're a dumb ass because things you ...
alt.fan.noam-chomsky - May 25, 7:20 am by Paulo Gomes Jardim - 9 messages -
7 authors
Fantastic loyalty to his citizens - Commissioner Art Goodtimes
True honest government representative of the peoples will still exists
in the United States. It's in San Miguel County, Colorado ...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 6:43 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
from December 2003
From: Mark Zahn <m...@linuxmail.org> To: joeypa...@attbi.com
amy.g...@metavante.com
s...@messer-mg.com z...@zahninc.com dragonfl...@earthlink.net Cc: president
...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 5:05 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Incredible Rush "sighting"
Wow, Virgnia Newbon knows that many adult entertainers that she has pushed
RUSH as a band to be liked by those professionals? She ...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 4:04 am by LIBERATOR - 5 messages - 4 authors
3 guys at Safeway Foods
I stop at a Safeway foods regularily to return food to get money to eat
my steak dinner at night. 3 guys kinda know me, I shot the ...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 3:21 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
I'm kinda freaked out - Ryan & Virginia
Ryan looks more like a RUSH affiliate originally than a DT affiliate. So
Neil Peart, the reincarnated Lafayette, quite privately ...
alt.music.rush - May 25, 3:09 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Holocaust proven a BIG FAT LIE!!!
wow, the guy finds a neo-nazi website chock full of bullshit revisionism and
he
is now an expert in the history of world war 2. He can't even get the
details ...
alt.politics.libertarian - May 25, 12:25 am by Jonsa - 9 messages - 6
authors
to my mother re Virginia
Right now she's trying to put spells on me to make me enticed by her. She's
likely
doing this from communications you shared with her, from me. ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 8:22 pm by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Weew heew, Germans were really good guys in WW2
http://www.ety.com/HRP/bookson?line/witnesstohistory/withis_c?h04.htm
alt.fan.kirsten-dunst - May 24, 7:59 pm by libera...@Linuxmail.org - 1
message - 1 author
Virginia is the psychic informer?
Is Virginia trying to inform me that she's not interested in me? Does
Virginia
believe I'll take employment soon? (not gonna happen ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 6:40 pm by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
That's it Newbon Family, attempt SPELLS!!!
You are clearly trying to force me to feel differently than I did from my
own
orginality. By that, you are practicing a evil form of witchcraft. ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 8:56 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
STOMP STOMP STOMP!!
Virginia is forcing all things to comply with her understanding!!! HAIL
WITCHCRAFT!!! and I guarantee you she is going to lose, BIG!!! ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 6:44 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Witchcraft attacks more frequent by Virginia
Virginia is forcing me to her spiritual design. Never NEVER NEVEr does
one true individualist work the reality of another. NEver ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 6:24 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
Tiger Kim Summons Mark Zahn
Chos are reading my posts, on the hour, hourly, daily. Uh, as I posted
this problem about Virginia stalking me, Virginia having ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 6:06 am by LIBERATOR - 1 message - 1 author
attn Kirsten Dunst (re Toby Maquire)
LMAO I meant Topher Grace. I was up late, not paying attention. *cracking
up* I got Toby Maguire added to SP3. Uh, Columbia being ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 1:38 am by libera...@Linuxmail.org - 2 messages - 1
author
Zionist Jews are conspiring
YOU FORGOT THAT THE JEWS OWN ALSO MARS, JUPITER'S MOONS AND ANDROMEDA.
UNFORTUNATELY
THEY DON'T OWN YOUR BRAIN. IF THEY WOULD IT WOULD FUNCTION. ...
alt.music.rush - May 24, 1:31 am by LIBERATOR - 13 messages - 6 authors
> The horror is not about libby- it's about false charging, false arrest,
> false imprisonment, vindictive prosecution, witness tampering, obstruction
> of justice, abuse under color of authority- all based on concealing
> professional malfeasance in Jefferson County Colorado.
>
Police in FBI unit violate 'spy files' pact, ACLU says
By Sue Lindsay, Rocky Mountain News
December 2, 2004
The American Civil Liberties Union contends that the FBI's Joint Terrorism
Task Force is compiling its own "spy files" on peaceful protesters.
The ACLU charges that Denver police assigned to the unit are violating a
2003 agreement in which Denver promised to stop keeping files of
surveillance information on individuals and groups who engage in peaceful
political demonstrations.
Mark Silverstein, the ACLU's legal director, and activists will present
evidence of the violations at a news conference this morning.
The settlement agreement applies to no other government agency, and the
question of whether Denver police officers who serve on the terrorism task
force are bound by its rules remains unresolved.
During his election campaign, Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper and other
candidates said that Denver rules against political monitoring would apply
to all officers whether they are on the task force or not, Silverstein has
said.
The ACLU sued the city in federal court in 2002 over the police surveillance
files on political activists and organizations. The lawsuit contended that
Denver police watched thousands of activities and protesters despite the
fact that they never were implicated in criminal activity.
The files labeled as "criminal extremist" such organizations as the American
Friends Service Committee.
Pasted from
<http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3368146,
00.html>
> > I imagine most government programs would probably be hanging about on
> > places like misc.survivalism and some of the Muslim boards.
>
Take a look at all the folks THEY are keeping tabs on:
http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Civil_Rights/122302_archive_of_spy_files_stories.htm
> Fraser, buddy; we're a 'Muslim' art from the largest muslim country in the
> world, and the seat of some of the most violent inter-religious warfare
> presently going on. You'll remember my being threatened a couple of times
> for teaching a muslim art, as a christian. I've been threatened by a woman
> translating for guys that didn't even speak english <g>
> They've 'infiltrated' my practice groups in order to hear for themselves
> what is taught- not once, several times. They've tried to provoke
responses
> of some sort, offered opportunities to get involved with negatory shit-
the
> whole 'agent provocateur' thing.
>
> > PS do some research on the echelon system.
Does supernatural psywar do the job? Are enemy troops and civilians coaxed
into submission by foreign propagandists using paranormal pranks? Based on
the experiences of U.S. PSYOP specialists, the answers to these questions
are ambiguous. Sometimes paranormal propaganda has swayed a target
population, in other cases it merely strengthened the perception that U.S.
forces were out of touch with the local reality. Whatever its effectiveness,
supernatural psywar has been an oft-used weapon in the military's arsenal of
fear.
(c) Copyright 1996 ParaScope, Inc.
Pasted from <http://www.parascope.com/ds/1096/psy.htm>
>
> Nah; that's Gartin's thing-
> See, I don't give a fuck. I have no expectation of privacy, or fair
> treatment from the government. I'm not going after them, I'm protecting
> myself from them- defending myself from the Courthouse Enterprise. I
didn't
> go pick a fight with these cocksuckers- they came at me, and look what's
> happened to them already.
> They shoulda left me alone.
> Hell, that black judge-appointee, one of the women, was just going on
about
> how our Constitutional guarantees were set aside in the mid-1930's; same
> shit Gartin's been hollerin' about for ten years.
>
> Chas
>
Every day there is another public news revelation of all the things I've
been saying for years. I watched the Communists (Democrats) try to grill
her. She outclassed them shamelessly. The Facists (Republicans) didn't
seem to have much to say to her. They openly exposed the *changing of the
law* in 1937 and the commencement of the socialist regime right there on the
evening news.
> www.jail4judges.org
Steve Gartin
www.cafepress.com/kuntaosilat
T
When I behaved like you, yeah. ;-)
No offense, sir.
Steve Gartin
news:1117030113.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Liberator Online Archive ... NEW ONLINE ACTION STEP To Stop Government Spy
Program: In past issues we've told you about "Total Information Awareness"
(TIA), the ominous Pentagon spy ...
www.theadvocates.org/liberator/vol-08-num-02.htm - 49k - Cached -
Similar pages
Liberator Online Archive ... ACTION STEP To Stop Government Spy Program:
In this issue you can read about the ominous new federal spy program "Total
Information Awareness. ...
www.theadvocates.org/liberator/vol-07-num-21.htm - 53k - Cached -
Similar pages
[ More results from www.theadvocates.org ]
Radio Liberty Newsletter - July 2002 ... the posse comitatus law, drivers
licenses will soon become "identity cards," and "TIPS," the government spy
program, is being organized across America. ...
www.radioliberty.com/nljuly02.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
Congress has final say on government 'spy' program ... E-Mail:
road...@thetrucker.com. Congress has final say on government 'spy' program.
WASHINGTON -- Congressional approval will be ...
www.thetrucker.com/stories/02_03/0225_spy_approval.html - 17k - Supple
mental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Venustech Studios Links Page ... info on ECHELON, the government's spy
program. SiteSolutions.Com free web site analysis tools. Radio Liberty.
Northeast Christian Network. Affiliates ...
www.venustechstudios.com/Links/links.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar
pages
Bjarni's New And Improved Diary: Antivirus vendors vs. Big Brother ... it's
relatively safe to assume that by the time we get our hands on a copy of the
government's spy-program and are able to detect and deactivate it, ...
bre.klaki.net/dagbok/faerslur/1006890057.shtml - 10k - Cached -
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ModBlog - Deathrowuk ... Although in all probability Roswell was nothing
more then a Government spy program aimed at the Soviets gone wrong . Its
still producing wide-spread ...
www.deathrowuk.modblog.com/ core.mod?show=blogview&blog_id=237535 -
162k - Cached - Similar pages
Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment ... ... Congress
has final say on government 'spy' program Submitted by: Newslinks Admin,
There are 3 comments on this story Post Comments | Read Comments. ...
keepandbeararms.com/news/nl/ display_day_archive.asp?d=2%2F26%2F2003 -
101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
The Decorum Forum ... It just dawned on me. You probably made some innocent
comment on the internet and it was picked up by the government spy program.
...
groups.msn.com/TheDecorumForum/
otpersonal.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=74067&La... - 56k -
Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Darkwing Duck! - Powerforum Plus+ Pro Deluxe Edition (www. ... ... The other
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www.hotboards.com/plus/
plus.mirage?who=darkwing2&id=12045.082641580617 - 41k - Supplemental
Result - Cached - Similar pages
>
Don't you think that technology has been developed further?
________________________________________
December 2, 2004
CBI agent Chuck Davis, 35, would lead the Computer Team. He had joined CBI
in February 1995 after three years with the Air Force Office of Special
Investigations, where he handled counter-espionage and child-pornography
investigations.
From the time he built a computer from a kit in high school, Davis had had a
passion for these magical machines. But he also carried a gun, served search
warrants, kicked in doors and made arrests.
After a personnel shuffle, leadership of the Threats Team would fall to
sheriff's Sgt. Rich Webb, 49. His job was to assess threats of school
violence made after the Columbine tragedy, a task that eventually involved
FBI agents across the country.
With teams in place, computer programs organizing vast amounts of data and
evidence collection well under way, the investigation leaped forward.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
The 'war room'
Monday morning, six days after the tragedy, the task force moved from
Columbine to its new home at the Taj Mahal, the nickname for the Jefferson
County government building in Golden. County commissioners cleared out
west-wing offices to make room.
The area would be collectively known as the "war room," but it was actually
several rooms. One, about 20 feet by 20 feet, held only computers -- Rapid
Start, word processors and machines that let investigators access the
Internet and the Colorado and national crime databases. Another was
divided -- part work space, part telephones. Three other rooms housed
investigators.
The CBI, which handles most lab work for police and sheriff's departments
across the state, took on the ballistics testing. It was a big job --
evidence recovered at the school showed that Harris and Klebold fired nearly
200 rounds.
Pasted from <http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1213col1.shtml>
Sure, it's all jest pure co-incidence.
Sleep tight,
Steve {Free} Gartin
www.stevegartin.com/SCBrief.htm
Grey Mouser West
Chas wrote:
> "Grey Mouser West" <calvin...@ocsnet.net> wrote
> >.....Go talk to someone who can help you
> > work through your post tramatic stress. Those who respect you on RMA
> > are trying to give you an intervention.
>
> So you figure that we just went spontaneously nuts- like Solsynitzen?
No if I thought that then I wouldn't try to reason with you.
> Mental illness just crept up and took us away- except in every other aspect
> of our lives?
Mark Zhan is the one with a mental illness. Zhan is a lunatic who
can't be reasoned with. See the difference?
> You figure that the other 3498 people similarly treated in this area are all
> 'paranoid' too?
What area? What 3498 people?
> You figure that the ACLU suit against the JTTF, now gone national due to
> it's pervasive nature, is an expression of similar mental illness?
That depends. Is it based on the idea that the JTTF has taken over
Liber8tor's screen name and is trolling usenet praising Hitler? If the
answer to this question is no then the answer to your question is no
and vise versa.
> You believe that 'Libby' is a homeless derelict who just happens to have
> high-tech access any time of the day or night and simply targets us because
> he's mentally ill too?
Not exactly. I think Mark Zhan is a nut. He can get internet access
at times but I don't think it is as often as he would like. If he had
it at any time then I would expect to see hundreds of posts each day.
How does he do it? Perhaps he has a relative or perhaps ranting here
helps him lead a partially functional life. I don't know why he
targeted you the first time. Maybe it was random or maybe you
interacted with him. Maybe the FSG movement impressed Zhan and made
him think Steve was a celebrity. Yet ever since you and Steve have
been rewarding Zhan with attention which reinforces his behavior. At
this point he seems more obsessed with Steve than he was with the
Gracies back in 97.
> There's a lot of it going around, isn't there?
> You should be careful- you know, lest it strike you as well.
Hey none of that. I haven't threatened you. You and Steve have real
enemies and your reaction to Mark Zhan is not helping your situation.
I don't have a problem with you guys messing with Liber8tor but I will
speak up about it if I think you cross the line into the area of
hurting your own credibility. Kindly quit seeing this as an insult.
The longer you behave this way the more you hurt yourself.
Steve Gartin
news:3fjgdbF...@individual.net...
>
> "Steve Gartin" <steve at thunderrock dot net> wrote in message
> news:1198pm6...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Good morning Fraser,
> >
> > Yeah, I would have thought that if I were not personally acquainted with
> > many of the JTTF members in Denver. They are goofy and inept beyond
> > explanation. This is not even the stupidest thing they have got caught
> > doing.
>
> So getting them done for corruption should be easy. Right?
>
Civil Rights Division of the FBI, or the US Attorney General or Internal
Affairs, or the Governor, or someone would do something . . . but
noooooooooooooooooooooo!
>
> >
> > You might recall that Chas postulated that the *real* LIBBY might be in
a
> > rubber room whilst LIBERATOR runs amok on the newsgroups. Well, last
> > night
> > I posted some of Liber8tor's early posts. Notice the startling
> > differences.
> > Notice that he plied other groups. Those posts were very consistent . .
.
> > like maybe b4 he went schizoid? Before he started locking the CAPS and
> > getting really weird? Before a half dozen dimwit 'Intelligence Agents'
> > started posting under the same name?
>
> I'll have to check some old posts. Hell peoples styles change over time.
> And insane people without help do tend to get wierder.
>
>
> >
> > As you read some of the commentary on Libby's old posts, you'll note
that
> > 'someone' was sterilizing his posts and removing them from the servers.
> > Why
> > would anyone be doing that? GDS mentioned that he had been following
> > Libby
> > since 97, but only a few of those posts remain. Way different from what
> > *he* posts recently and on philosophical NGs not alt.hard.drugs and
> > alt.porn. He also took a screen name way back then including 'tao.'
>
> I guess he just had a no archive flag set on his posts. Also maybe he is
> trolling where there is fish to catch.
>
>
> >
> > Yes, I'm familiar with echelon. People need to get used to the fact
that
> > every public conversation they have is being monitored. There is only
one
> > defense available ~ living in the bright Light.
>
> Dude this sounds a bit kooky. Sure phone stuff and probably internet is
> running through the echelon system. But not every public conversation.
The
> manpower would be incredible. What does living in the bright light mean?
YHVH's Children live their lives in the Light of Truth, the Serpent's Seed
prefers the darkness.
> Using 100 watt globes?
>
The Holy Spirit suffices.
>
> That is why I have
> > published by phone number and advertised where I'll be. If anyone wants
> > to
> > get in touch with me, they know how and where. LIBERATOR is a fiction
and
> > no one has ever seen him nor knows how to contact him but Liber8tor
> > published his website and phone number, to-wit:
> >
> > The Liber8r
> >
> > The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site
respectively:
> >
> > lib...@mcs.com
> >
> > 1-708-222-3050 x4021
> >
> > http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
> >
> >
> >
> > Think about it.
>
> Long time ago Steve. Not surprised this information is out of date. Hard
> to pay your isp and the telco when you are eating trash out of a dumpster.
>
> Fraser
>
Yeah right ~ all he gets now is trips to the Carribean, Las Vegas, Mexico
and Florida ~ and high-speed 24 hour internet access ~ tickets to all the
latest movies and all the best pharmaceutical drugs on the internet.
Times have changed in *his* favor ~ a?
>
Aesop's Fables are like that too.
Steve
www.kuntaosilat.com