Mike Tyson Vs Top Wing Chun artist
Silent Bear
the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
No weapons allowed of course.
If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
about you?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
joshp...@my-deja.com
Silent Bear <burnout6...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
>
hypothetical best wing chun guy who is the same size and aproximately
as well conditioned as tyson? The WC guy, hands down, for as much cash
as I could get my ahnds on.
the 5'6" hypothetical best wc guy from china vs tyson? Still go with
the WC guy, but I'll put less money on it.
josh
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
capt_...@my-deja.com
have to go with Mike Tyson. I say this because I have been in a few
clubs when Tyson has shown up at them and he doesn't travel alone,
meaning the WC might get one good shot in but he WILL be swarmed by all
the guys that hang around Tyson unless he has a M-60 and body armor.
Fu-chen Yang
Silent Bear wrote:
>
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
I will put my money on the Wingchun master:-)
Fuchen
laz...@my-deja.com
going to see a shrink after the whole ear thing. He said Tyson was
tiny,but he was built like a weightlifter. And Mike has quick hands.
On the other side, an equally in shape WC guy with master-level skill?
Wong Sheung Leung fought a 6'6 250 pound Russian boxer off the USSR
Olympic team bareknuckle in Hong Kong,in front of the press so there
is record of it, and Wong Sheung Leung pounded the guy into ground
beef. And the boxer was a foot taller and about 90 pounds heavier. It
would be a fun fight,but the WC guy knows you don't punch with a boxer
and he'd probably use low-line devastation kicks to fuck up Mike's
legs,and then when Mike was thinking about how his knee hurt, he'd get
a Bill Jee and some Chain punches. So I'd go with the WC guy. I know
most will go with Mike, but we know Mike isn't the sharpest tool in the
drawer, he would have no experience with WC and he'd try for the
knockout quick. The WC guy would know this, avoid the quick KO and get
Mike when Mike got frustrated and even dumber. Now Muhammed Ali and a
comparable WC guy,that would be a fight because Ali could move. Mike
has always been a brawler,that plays to the WC guys advantage. The
young Ali would be tougher because he can pound and move.
-K.Troy.
In article <1e6579fe...@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com>,
Silent Bear <burnout6...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -
Free!
>
>
TAP
Because there are all kinds of maniacs wanting to shoot him or stab him...
And because if he would hit anyone in the streets, the other guy would sue
him and Mikey would be out of boxing for a long time...
If you think the reason for him to have bodyguards is the fact that he can't
take on attacks with his guard down or from behind, I ask you: Why does Van
Damme, Seagal, Norris, Li etc. have bodyguards too?
ooih
On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:15:21 -0800, Silent Bear
ooih
>>Ask yourself, why does he have body guards?
>
>
>Because there are all kinds of maniacs wanting to shoot him or stab him...
>And because if he would hit anyone in the streets, the other guy would sue
>him and Mikey would be out of boxing for a long time...
>
guns and knives was what i was gonna say. he's been guilty of sexual
assault (or whatever it was) but that hardly put a dent in his career,
and he probably has enough money to deal with being sued via an out of
court settlement.
>If you think the reason for him to have bodyguards is the fact that he can't
>take on attacks with his guard down or from behind, I ask you: Why does Van
>Damme, Seagal, Norris, Li etc. have bodyguards too?
>
because van damme's a dancer, seagal would be too worried about
messing up his hair, norris is getting a tad old and chubby, and li
couldn't handle a real street fight if he had an Acme Super Hack 'n
Chop Street Fight 2000 Deluxe Machine.
Eric Jones
>
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
The wing chun master, assuming that mike is wearing his muzzle.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Jones | beable DUH DUH!
xe...@clark.net | beable beable DUH!
| beable DUH DUH!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Downing
I don't know you very well, but I like the way you explain things to this
group. You are absolutely correct. I think most weekend warriors confuse
hobbies and arts with *professions*.
Having said that... It would be neat to see Mike in one of the various no
holds barred fighting tournaments.
Regards,
Mark Downing
Gichoke wrote in message <20000203032442...@ng-cu1.aol.com>...
>>: ama...@webtv.net (John Carlo)
>>Date: 2/3/00 0:44 AM EST
>>Message-id: <17341-38...@storefull-158.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>>
>>Tyson easy,, kicks would not even be an issue for mike and as far as
>>speed tyson without gloves is lightning fast he is real real tough and
>>mean
>
>I must concur.
>Lets assume that the wing chun guy is big and strong...
>So what?
>Tyson would mangle 99% of the worlds heavyweight boxers very,very
quickly.That
>stiff he beat in England the other day was actually a very good
fighter.People
>don't realise that the lure of the millions has caused the level in boxing
to
>become unbelievably high.
>Even some club fighter level guy,has to have a genetic predisposition to
>explosiveness,pain tolerance and general badassedness to survive in the dog
eat
>dog world of fighting.
>If something doesn't work in boxing,it gets dropped.This has been going on
for
>a century.Nowadays boxers KNOW what works.
>A Wing Chun guy is just a some dude taking some self defense courses,not a
>combat athlete.
>When a martial *ARTIST* fights a martial*ATHLETE* who's gonna win?
>Could Barry Sanders take Robert Mapplethorpe?
>I think so.
>Another thing people don't grasp is the speed of a good boxer,he hits you
in
>the face before you notice his arm cocking.
>It's scary.
>Look at Tank Abbott(now Belfort showed that Tank is not a boxer)but when
Tank
>fought Jennum,Tank showed something about explosivness.
>People don't think about Tank as fast,but he's a powerlifter,so he can step
in
>with a punch with freaky speed.Yes,he telegraphs it.But he started that
punch
>that knocked Jennum down,when he was on the other side of the Octogon,and a
guy
>that can bench 600 has amazing one-step forward suddeness.
>Jennun wanted to duck,and even though he knew that Tank was gonna do just
what
>he did(throw a right),jennum still couldn't duck in time.
>Now when you picture the explosiveness of Tank and the handspeed and
reflexes
>of Belfort,you begin to get an idea of the kind of hurt that Tyson could
>unleash in a heartbeat.
>I tell you what,if I fought Tyson I would already be in a deep crouch as I
>approached,because I don't think I'd have the reflexes to time an entry
while
>upright like Royce Gracie does.
>I'd just hope that Tyson was uncomfortable swinging at a guy that was in a
>Pernel Whitiker-like crouch and mess with his accuracy.
>Tyson is used to driving punches upward with his lower body,as he is only
5'10"
>and he usually fights guys about 6'3".So he would lose power swinging on a
>downward arc.I'd hope that Tyson faked a punch then follow in the fake,but
in a
>real fight I doubt Tyson would fake,he'd go crazy and explode trying to
bash
>your brains in with one big combo.
>I think if he was wearing a jacket of some kind I'd just try to cling for a
>second then do my pattented drop backward to guard and sweep him in one
>motion.Cause I wouldn't wanna struggle for a takedown with a guy that
strong
>that only needs one semi-clean shot to put me in la-la land.
>A wing Chun guy would do what?
>Stop kick?
>No fucking way.Tyson would crash right threw it.
>Eye-jab?
>It's hard enough to land a shot on a boxers head,let alone his eye.
>Straight blast?
>Suicide.Hit Tyson square,he'd just smile.
>Did you see how many shots he took from Holyfield and Douglas before he
went
>down?
>Razor Ruddock hits like a "Fucking mule kick" but Tyson never stopped
coming
>forward.
>
>Wing Chun VS Tyson?
>
>Don't ask stupid questions.
>
>Gi
>
Maek
Maek
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000203032442...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> >Given a situation with no 'formalities', I think that 'boxers' will
> >suffer against some other arts- after all, you fight like you train.
> The problem is that boxers train a lot harder than most martial
> artists.
The problem is that we're already talking world class competitors- if
you think that *you* are going up against Iron Mike without 'training
hard' you're being silly. There are pictures floating about of men that
make Mike Tyson look like a choir boy.
Both in conditioning and in giving and receiving full-power
> shots, with non-cooperative opponents. They train to dole out and
> take punishment, much more intensely than the majority of martial
> artists - fight like you train? Advantage: Boxers
You want his competition to be a mallrat McDojo guy? Gee, no worries
there. If you're talking top end competition, fighting in their own
rules systems, you've certainly got guys that compare to any training
anywhere; lots.
> I used to be on the other side of this argument, with my head firmly
> in the clouds of the romantic idea of Wing Chun and kung fu being able
> to stymie a boxer. Now, I'll say it for the record - in a stand-up
> fight, a halfway decent boxer will smoke the majority of martial
> artists.
You have enough qualifiers and weasel words in that position to render
it utterly neutral. The 'majority of martial artists' aren't even
interested in sporting competition- halfway decent boxers need to meet
halfway decent martial artists.
...> and it always comes from those people who have never taken on a
> boxer.
Yeah right, like you don't see boxers in the United States- duh.
You're still in that headful of clouds there, Paul. We see lots of
boxers, lots. We train in boxing, lots. All of our technic is practiced
full speed, full strength- a small difference might be the followthrough
on some kinds of things- I guarantee you; to study silat is to take a
bi-weekly asswhipping.
I do say, that in my own practice and teaching methodologies, I have
toned down the physical commitment- most of my guys have to go to work
in the morning and they can't be broken. That's one of the reasons that
I emphasize cultivating the attitude of the warrior in battle and the
finesse of technique.
> The only arts that boxers will actually suffer against reliably will
> be those that involve ground grappling and lower-body takedowns.
Ding- wrong.
> If
> >you don't train for a broad range of technic and application, ... All the tussling and rasslin' around
> >practice in the world will not teach you deeper martial arts skills-
>
> It's interesting that you like to discount the fact that some of that
> "tusslin" is actual martial art - you're stuck in the old mentality
> that martial arts are something that apparently has to be on the feet,
> kicking, punching, or utilizing a weapon.
Not in the least- I've postulated that boxing, wrestling and some other
things are in fact martial arts by anyones' definition.
It would be difficult for you to assign me an 'old mentality' seeing as
I practice a very exotic martial art from a culture nobody ever heard
of. It doesn't share much of anything with martial attitudes that you
might be more familiar with.
>It's interesting that now
> people still want to discount any value of hard-contact,hard-training
> styles like boxing, BJJ, wrestling, etc... and don't want to say that
> they have actual martial skills involved, so the easy way out is to
> say "well it's because they learn how to be tough and tolerate chaos
> and pain". Unfortunately back in the day that in and of itself was
> considered a major skill of martial arts. Executing under pressure
> and through pain - somehow I don't remember this being dropped from
> what was considered a valuable skill gained thru martial arts. I
> guess it's just kicking, punching, cool-looking traps, and multi-step
> knife disarms that can be considered "martial arts skills".
Nobody said any of that- you're constructing a position of your own and
then answering it in fine fashion. I would charge you with presenting
quotes from any source besides Gichoke or someone of his ilk that
supports anything you've said there; please.
You're arguing in a vacuum- you don't know much about the broad scope of
martial arts- you don't suspect much about their training methods or
requirements- you want everybody to be a mallrat McDojo slug- not
happenin', Paul.
>
Chas
Russ Rader
>
> Gi...
>
> I don't know you very well, but I like the way you explain things to this
> group. You are absolutely correct. I think most weekend warriors confuse
> hobbies and arts with *professions*.
Uh, some MA people do MA for a living.
> Having said that... It would be neat to see Mike in one of the various no
> holds barred fighting tournaments.
Yeah, it would. Tyson vs. Rickson, with the original UFC rules.
> Gichoke wrote in message <20000203032442...@ng-cu1.aol.com>...
<big snip>
> >
> >Wing Chun VS Tyson?
> >
> >Don't ask stupid questions.
What if someone with Belfort's attributes was a Wing Chun "master"?
Russ
Chas
> the 5'6" hypothetical best wc guy from china vs tyson? Still go with
> the WC guy, but I'll put less money on it.
No, to satisfy Paul and Frank, he has to be a 135 lb., 5"6", once a week
student who does 15 mins. of practice a day against the air.
Worldwide wing chun is not my forte, but I've seen a bit of fighting in
my life. There is a Chinese student of one of the big Paqua guys over
there, that seems to run 260 lbs. at about 6'4"; very quick, very strong
and utterly comfortable with getting hit if he gets to hit back. He is a
full time martial practitioner- probably in reasonable condition too.
Now, Mikey don't fight for less than, what, 10 million bucks? It's
unlikely that he would present himself for any sort of testing of skills
without a comparable incentive- and if you think he's going to do it for
the honour of the corps, you're mistaken.
So, who we gonna get to represent boxing and how to get a full time
trained practitioner from a credible school?
And, just to keep it honest, I've never heard of a contest between a
boxer and a karateka that wasn't loaded for the boxer- have you? I know
that wrestling coaches love judo players and that some of the rules in
collegiate wrestling were put there to mitigate judo skills.
From my own experience with boxers, they think the fight is going to
last a lot longer than it does. They don't come off the mark fast
enough. I have a former GG champion who wanted to turn pro (at one time)
in my practice group- he is certainly a good enough boxer to show us the
stuff- he's also a BB in TKD (maybe a second or something), so he kicks
good- he's an ironworker, so he's in pretty good shape (just that sort
of guy)- he also finds the silat system to be very intriguing because of
things he had never even considered before- different stuff.
Anyway, you guys need to get out more-
Chas
Strider
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000203032442...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> >: ama...@webtv.net (John Carlo)
> >Date: 2/3/00 0:44 AM EST
> >Message-id: <17341-38...@storefull-158.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> >
> >Tyson easy,, kicks would not even be an issue for mike and as far as
> >speed tyson without gloves is lightning fast he is real real tough and
> >mean
>
> I must concur.
<snip a lot of stuff about Tyson>
I think that there are two seperate issues here: Boxing vs. Wing Chun and
Tyson vs. some other guy.
You point out, correctly, that Tyson's physical talents (strength, speed,
"general badassness") would overwhelm the vast majority of martial artists.
In the US, those with great talent at fighting generally go into boxing
since there's more money in it. That doesn't mean that boxing is more
effecive than other martial arts.
A more interesting question would be this: if you cloned Tyson, including
the pit bull attitude, and trained the clone in Wing Chun/BJJ/whatever,
could it beat the origional?
Tim M.
FB
> joshp...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > the 5'6" hypothetical best wc guy from china vs tyson? Still go with
> > the WC guy, but I'll put less money on it.
>
> No, to satisfy Paul and Frank, he has to be a 135 lb., 5"6", once a week
> student who does 15 mins. of practice a day against the air.
> Worldwide wing chun is not my forte, but I've seen a bit of fighting in
> my life. There is a Chinese student of one of the big Paqua guys over
> there, that seems to run 260 lbs. at about 6'4"; very quick, very strong
> and utterly comfortable with getting hit if he gets to hit back. He is a
> full time martial practitioner- probably in reasonable condition too.
<g>
Well then let me rephrase it, if I wasn't clear - ha.
No more than 5 seconds -- against your 6'4", 260 lb., strong, "utterly
comfortable with getting hit" Wing Chun man.
It's a matter of posture, among other things. This guy, using Wing Chun, is
presenting a target of the head that even an amateur boxer would not give.
Conversely, *there is no centerline on Mike*. Either you see this, or you
don't. I've already seen similar things play out in front of my eyes many
times.
Left hook in 5 seconds. Maybe 10.
FB
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:56:46 -0500, "Strider"
> <gte...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> >A more interesting question would be this: if you cloned Tyson, including
> >the pit bull attitude, and trained the clone in Wing Chun/BJJ/whatever,
> >could it beat the origional?
> I would still say no. Wing Chun's punches are nowhere near as
> powerful as those of boxing, and you're dealing with the exact same
> speed and condition of athlete. If WC Mike lands several, he might
> hurt Boxing Mike. If Boxing Mike lands one, he might KO WC Mike.
>
> Now BJJ Mike, on the other hand would simply take Boxing Mike out of
> his element, and the odds are BJJ Mike would hook him or pound him out
> from mount.
>
> Wrestler Mike would take Boxing Mike to the ground, out of his
> element. And not know what the hell to do to him there, besides
> probably throw awkward blows.
>
> Silat/Kali Mike would pull a knife and bleed out any of the Mikes.
> Unarmed however, Silat/Kali Mike is in a world of trouble unless
> somehow he has gained the magical ability to get several destructions
> to land/work on a fighter with Boxing Mike's speed.
I second the above. Good post.
simon james
FB wrote in message <38990289...@hotmail.com>...
>Silent Bear wrote:
>
>> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
>> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>>
>> No weapons allowed of course.
>>
>> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
>> about you?
>>
>
you
>could color me surprised if it went longer than 5 seconds.
## 5 seconds ? What, is Mike gonna count to 4 before he hits him ?
D.C.
Two reasons
1. People with guns.
2. Tyson cannot afford to "defend himself" against joe public for fear of
being sued/getting sent back to prison.
--
_______________________________________________
D
"You can not reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason"
Have you visited the hunger site today? http://www.hungersite.com/index.html
Your visit donates grain to the United Nations world food program.
laz...@my-deja.com
> >
> > >A more interesting question would be this: if you cloned Tyson,
including
> > >the pit bull attitude, and trained the clone in Wing
Chun/BJJ/whatever,
> > >could it beat the origional?>>>>>>>>>>
The WC Mike, The BJJ Mike, the JKD Mike and the Kali/Escrima/Silat Mike
would defeat the boxing Mike.
> > I would still say no. Wing Chun's punches are nowhere near as
> > powerful as those of boxing, and you're dealing with the exact same
> > speed and condition of athlete.::::::::
A straight blast isn't as strong as a hook,but it is as strong as a
jab. You are comparing the wrong things. A Turning Punch would have
more than enough power to KO a guy. And a WC Master would have done
hours of wallbag work and his chain punches/ Straight Blasts would pack
a frigging wallup.
::::If WC Mike lands several, he might
> > hurt Boxing Mike. If Boxing Mike lands one, he might KO WC
Mike.:::::
If WC Mike landed a turning Punch flush, Boxing Mike would be knocked
out. Just as if Boxing Mike would land a KO if he connected on a hook
or uppercut. But if Mike landed a jab,the WC guy would be fine and a
straight blast is like a jab, a set-up move. And who says WC Mike would
play by boxing rules? Why wouldn't he punch the neck or Bill Jee the
eyes? And Why would he try and punch a puncher? Why not use an instep
kick and smash his knee? You are assuming that the Wing Chun guy is on
master level and he doesn't follow ANY WC principles or methods he'd
have been taught.
> >
> > Now BJJ Mike, on the other hand would simply take Boxing Mike out of
> > his element, and the odds are BJJ Mike would hook him or pound him
out
> > from mount.::::::
Or he'd get his melon cracked open. The human skull is only as thick as
a coconut. I think Tyson has the power to crack a coconut. And Tyson is
very stocky and compact,It would be hard to get him down. If you shoot
and can't get him,you are tres fucked. If you did get him down, Mike
would be screwed. Choke,keylock,whatever,hed be out.
> >
> > Wrestler Mike would take Boxing Mike to the ground, out of his
> > element. And not know what the hell to do to him there, besides
> > probably throw awkward blows.:::
Or bite his ears.
> >
> > Silat/Kali Mike would pull a knife and bleed out any of the Mikes.
> > Unarmed however, Silat/Kali Mike is in a world of trouble unless
> > somehow he has gained the magical ability to get several
destructions
> > to land/work on a fighter with Boxing Mike's speed.::::::::::
Silat/Kali has other stuff than limb destructions. A Kali guy of Guro
Dan's level,with Tyson's body,would beat Boxing mike.
>
> I second the above. Good post.:::::::::::
I see so many MA's like Wing Chun and Kali get ripped around here and
guys make posts like this where it sounds like their only knowledge of
the systems comes from an issude of BlackBelt. A good Kali/WC/BJJ guy
isn't going to play boxer Mike's game. Wong Sheung Leung/Judo Gene
LeBell didn't box the boxers they pounded, the did thier own stuff. It
sounds like you guys are wondering who would win a boxing match between
the MA mike and the Boxer Mike. Boxing is great,my Gym I was in this
summer did alot of boxing, but a Master Level Ma guy would beat a
similar boxer,IMO.
Chas
> No more than 5 seconds -- against your 6'4", 260 lb., strong, "utterly
> comfortable with getting hit" Wing Chun man.
> It's a matter of posture, among other things.
Okey dokey-
Hong Kong and Southern China certainly saw plenty of boxers; maybe even
some good ones in the hundred years of British sovereignty.
But, I guess they never saw a left hook.
I guess they don't *really* fight,
or train,
or have useful technique.
Poor chinese guys.
But, I heard that they really like to gamble- a man could clean up
taking a good boxer over there and whipping everybody's ass.
Wonder why no one has thought of that yet.....
Chas
Chas
> Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> >No, to satisfy Paul and Frank, he has to be a 135 lb., 5"6", once a week
> >student who does 15 mins. of practice a day against the air.
>
> sarcastic contriving.
No different than your own strawman arguments- you use every little
weasel word known to man to qualify your positions. I don't think you
know anything about it- I think you need to get out more. Your only
position is that boxers train harder (not true), that the 'center line
theory is the be-all/end-all of WC (not true) and you think the punching
style is 'weaker' (without ever meeting a WC player except on video)-
Gee, seems reasonable to me (not).
The bigger the WC guy, the bigger and most
> likely slower/less elusive a target he is for the boxer. I give the
> smaller WC guy a better chance at not getting hit, actually.
Yeah, those big slow wing chun guys don't know anything about hitting or
getting hit- yeah, right, Paul.
> Unless his practice is 5 times a week going full contact with boxers I
> give him little chance. Even so I highly doubt that a guy that has
> gone thru that, will be using anything resembling classic WC by the
> time he's done.
You still think that WC guys don't train as hard or as rigorously as
boxers? You need to get out more. I still don't think you have any
suspicion about what 'classic WC' resembles. You certainly don't know
anything about martial taiji, martial paqua- and you really don't know
anything about silat- you know, judging from your comments.
I'm sure you're a nice man and everything.
Chas
Chas
> Now Muhammed Ali and a
> comparable WC guy,that would be a fight because Ali could move. Mike
> has always been a brawler,that plays to the WC guys advantage. The
> young Ali would be tougher because he can pound and move.
>
martial art and to Indonesian martial art. Certainly much of his styling
would be found in either of those systems.
Willem de Thouars worked with both Cassius Clay and with Rocky Marciano-
Clay used a lot of triangular footwork and that
semihemidemialmostbackfist and Marciano was known for his guntings.
But hey, you guys knew all that, didn't you?
Chas
Gichoke
>Date: 2/3/00 12:20 PM EST
>Message-id: <3899B8E6...@ford.com>
>
>Mark Downing wrote:
>>
>> Gi...
>>
>> I don't know you very well, but I like the way you explain things to this
>> group. You are absolutely correct. I think most weekend warriors confuse
>> hobbies and arts with *professions*.
>
>Uh, some MA people do MA for a living.
>
>> Having said that... It would be neat to see Mike in one of the various no
>> holds barred fighting tournaments.
>
>Yeah, it would. Tyson vs. Rickson, with the original UFC rules.
There are plenty of examples of one dimensional strikers vs one dimensional
grapplers.
Grapplers win 90%.
Tyson has trained to fight guys that stand in front of him.
Rickson has trained to fight guys that tackle,guys that kick, guys that
punch... everything you can imagine.
Tyson would be beaten quickly and easily.
.
But,that isn't to say that if Tyson spent a year or so learning to counter the
shoot and break clinches that he wouldn't have a real shot.
Gi
Gichoke
>Date: 2/4/00 0:21 AM EST
>Message-id: <MPG.13042be26...@news.nb.net>
>
>In the world of rec.martial-arts, on 03 Feb 2000 08:24:42 GMT the bonds
>of time ripped as Gichoke yelled the following:
>>>: ama...@webtv.net (John Carlo)
>>>Date: 2/3/00 0:44 AM EST
>>>Message-id: <17341-38...@storefull-158.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>>>
>>>Tyson easy,, kicks would not even be an issue for mike and as far as
>>>speed tyson without gloves is lightning fast he is real real tough and
>>>mean
>Tailored for combat
Arts are about looking pretty,not combat.
>
>>fights a martial*ATHLETE* who's gonna win?
>Tailored as an american sport.
An american COMBAT sport.
>Mike wears gloves.
Punches hurt even more without them.
Gi
John Carlo
and ali learnt those things from a silat man,, do you think ali was the
only guy to throw a back hand jab damn look at the old slapsy maxy
rosiblomn, max bear, jack johnson films and willie pep fights god i cant
believe all the horse shit you come up with last time it was how the
phillipinos taught some fag ass sailors how to box and they taught us
dumn westerners.,.. you forget the great boxers and trainers of the
first half of the century who changed boxing. names benny leanord
boxing master, willie pep, joe fucking louis, gene tunney, mickey walker
, ray arcel please boxing sucks but the only things good about it
westerners learnt from some little oriental shitbird ---stop spreading
bullshit and have facts
and by the way ali had that flunky ass jab in the amateurs when no one
new him
charlie goldmen a great boxing trainer was marcianos only trainer period
end of story
another thing all these boxers i mentioned all had hundreds of real
fights thats how boxing evolved from great boxers boxing and developing
new and better ways through experience
Patrick and Jennifer Younts
Chas wrote in message <389A20D9...@home.com>...
>p...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
>> Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
>> >No, to satisfy Paul and Frank, he has to be a 135 lb., 5"6", once a week
>> >student who does 15 mins. of practice a day against the air.
>>
>> I dont' remember myself or Frank saying this so please stop with the
>> sarcastic contriving.
>
>No different than your own strawman arguments- you use every little
>weasel word known to man to qualify your positions. I don't think you
>know anything about it- I think you need to get out more. Your only
>position is that boxers train harder (not true), that the 'center line
>theory is the be-all/end-all of WC (not true) and you think the punching
>style is 'weaker' (without ever meeting a WC player except on video)-
>Gee, seems reasonable to me (not).
Agreed. I get so fucking sick of the dogpile on WC attitude in here. I don't
even practice the style and it pisses me off to read all this crap over and
over again. By now most if not all of the WC practitioners have abandoned
this group, so these baiting posts are just beating an already pulped horse.
>
>The bigger the WC guy, the bigger and most
>> likely slower/less elusive a target he is for the boxer. I give the
>> smaller WC guy a better chance at not getting hit, actually.
>
>Yeah, those big slow wing chun guys don't know anything about hitting or
>getting hit- yeah, right, Paul.
Oh, didn't you know Chas? WC guys never train with real hitting, they just
dance around in Tutus. When they aren't whipping up a creme brule that is.
No one other than boxers ( Oh, and the Gracies and Thai kickboxers) ever
practices for real. We are all just fooling ourselves. Now if you will
excuse me, I have to go iron my TuTu.
p...@mail.utexas.edu
<kngf...@portland.quik.com> wrote:
>>Yeah, those big slow wing chun guys don't know anything about hitting or
>>getting hit- yeah, right, Paul.
^^^Well Chas, the last WC guy I asked to go check out the local boxing
gym (Richard Lord's gym) got two shades of shit knocked out of him.
Apparently he couldn't hit hard enough, and the other guys hit too
hard. I have never seen a WC or classical Kung Fu class that had as
much and as heavy contact as what I've seen in boxing training.
Granted I only trained for about 2 yrs and got hit, bruised, and my
share of bloody lips etc. but it's nothing compared to the hits I take
in boxing/muay thai (partly because I aint that good) power-wise. Hah,
let's not even get into comparing the power of kicks.
>Oh, didn't you know Chas? WC guys never train with real hitting, they just
>dance around in Tutus. When they aren't whipping up a creme brule that is.
Patrick - Hey, try training with some boxers and sparring with them,
then "sparring" with a few WC guys and i *guarantee* you'll notice a
difference. If you've never trained WC and never trained any boxing
you can't really make a credible comparison now can you?
>No one other than boxers ( Oh, and the Gracies and Thai kickboxers) ever
>practices for real. We are all just fooling ourselves. Now if you will
Well, you said it, not me. Let us know when you have worked out at a
boxing gym, rolled live at a grappling/wrestling/BJJ school, and/or
gone and sparred at a Muay Thai school, and see if you notice anything
different.
Chas
> chas what i know is your full of shit when it comes to thinking marciano
> and ali learnt those things from a silat man,,
Beans, Beans- the tropical fruit; the more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel- so eat your beans at every meal.
Plonk- you've lost all credibility.
Chas
Russ Rader
>
> Beans, Beans- the tropical fruit; the more you eat, the more you toot.
> The more you toot, the better you feel- so eat your beans at every meal.
That's *musical*, damn it! Musical!
;-)
Russ
X
<beeeeeeelllch>
Excuse me, excuse me with all my heart, but if it came out the other end it
would've been a .....
But hey, its better to belch and bear the shame, than not to belch and bear
the pain.
Or you could pull my finger and something will linger.
(you gotta love grandpas)
;-)
Kosta
FB
> There is a strong story that Cassius Clay had exposure to both Filipino
> martial art and to Indonesian martial art. Certainly much of his styling
> would be found in either of those systems.
> Willem de Thouars worked with both Cassius Clay and with Rocky Marciano-
> Clay used a lot of triangular footwork and that
> semihemidemialmostbackfist and Marciano was known for his guntings.
> But hey, you guys knew all that, didn't you?
>
> Chas
Chas, I've studied Marciano and Ali to considerable depth, and this is one
of the sketchiest claims I've heard.
There is a wealth of record on who trained and worked with Ali and Marciano,
and de Thouars' name does not come up, even as a footnote.
Kaz
even closer in a range boxers would be unaccustomed to; and moreover
"traps" and locks the arms of the opponent. This gives Wing Chun a
distinct advantage.
Not to mention ofcourse the use of kicks, and various strikes to the
eyes and throat.
But then again, Mike Tyson is a phenom. And whatever system he may
happen to use, no matter how inferior, he'd be a formiddable opponent.
Silent Bear wrote:
>
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Chas
> Chas, I've studied Marciano and Ali to considerable depth, and this is one
> of the sketchiest claims I've heard.
> There is a wealth of record on who trained and worked with Ali and Marciano,
> and de Thouars' name does not come up, even as a footnote.
Don't know what to tell you- it's a story I've heard for twenty years.
I've never known the de Thouars bros. need to embellish their martial
capability, so I would find it startling that they would fabricate such
a story. In point of fact, there are a number of people, of my own
knowledge, that decline to present how much they owe to the family
system- this is not much of a surprise.
It sure is something that one could ask any of them and be assured of
getting an answer.
Chas
Chas
> >Clay used a lot of triangular footwork and that
> >semihemidemialmostbackfist and Marciano was known for his guntings.
> >But hey, you guys knew all that, didn't you?
It's a slow day and I'm pissed off for being sick for a while now <g>
The statement is true though.
I've been trying to tell you guys for a long time that our kuntao silat
contains a lot of boxing- there are gymnasiums that emphasize it much
more than mine own, so it is really no example of this particular
precept. In the Denver area, it is a central theme with both Moffatt's
school and Lauper's school.
Willem learned to box from 'Mr. Hamilton' in the mid-40's or so (this on
top of a lot of other instruction in pugging). They were prisoners of
war of the Japanese in Thailand- Kampanachorn (I think- the Bridge over
the River Kwai place). When he came to the US, he worked in training
camps and gymnasiums a lot.
Boxing has remained a special area of study for him. He requires
practice in it and it is the basis for much of our 'sparring' style (we
add some things to it, expand the available techniques).
He has interacted with numerous well known fighters, teachers,
personages and so on. Having been active on both coasts since the
mid-50's, he has had a lot of opportunity to both learn and instruct.
Willem is a very hard conditioning, very fit practitioner. There is
nothing in a boxing training camp he would find startling, and I would
bet that there are few boxers that could match his daily routine *right
now*.
Incidentally, he is a fencer also; Legrand of Holland. Now, when you mix
boxing, fencing and an intercepting fist, with the Bay Area of the early
60's, what do you get?
Chas
John Carlo
numerious challange matches you on the other hand have done nothing but
talk about monkey steels the peach bullshit , just another little punk
who wants to talk about how a weak ass can defend himself with tricks ,
my point--- weak woman cant fight worth a shit and neither can you
John Carlo
say this shit without a shread of evidenc
HERE is one big fact chas you dont know chas when a trainer trains a
fighter the boxer NEVER trains with another trainer NEVER it is an
insult charlie Goldman one of the most respected educated boxing
trainers in the game would not alow some karate horshit artist around
his fighter fact of the matter he would not a great boxing trainer
around his boxer it is not done PERIOD ! ali on the other hand played
with all sort of arts because he was his own trainer half the time BUT
BUT BUT HE HAS SAID NUMERIOUS TIMES that ray robinson was the one he
stole from the most and jack johnson second I have read numerious books
on ali
FB
> It's even follier to assume every martial artist of whatever system is a
> mallrat couch potato who doesn't come to fight.
No comment. <g>
>
> Like I said; it's not like nobody never saw a boxer before.
>
> Chas
This last point you made is interesting to me.
Everybody seems to *think* they understand boxing, because they've seen it
so much.
But in the years I've trained in it and taught it, I've found that the
average person -- trained or untrained in martial art -- has an INTUITIVE
understanding of boxing .... WHICH RUNS COUNTER TO FACT. Very similar to
submission grappling.
In other words, most of the people who think they understand boxing are
familiar only with their own ascriptions about it -- having looked, but
lacking a clue about what they're looking at. They have the intuitive
understanding of a person who thinks umbrellas cause rain.
I found this out when I started producing analysis documentaries of actual
fights as a teaching aid. People consistently came back with a, "Man, I
completely missed what was *really* going on." I've found that those who
haven't done it lack the eye for what's going on.
Like I said -- everybody seems to *think* they understand boxing, because
they've seen it on TV, etc. Because something seems ubiquitous, they think
they understand it. But then, lots of people see the Sun every day, too,
and have no clue what it really is, or what it's really doing. Both seem to
have a history of naive tautology.
Chas
> Most of the people espousing this as gospel however will
> never actually go and try these techniques live against an
> uncooperative boxer.
Conversely, I've not known a boxer to go up against any other art under
that art's rules.
I have fought boxers in casual circumstances (not in the ring), I've
sparred with them under their rules (and got thumped), I've sparred with
them under our rules (liked that a bit more) <g>
> >Not to mention ofcourse the use of kicks, and various strikes to the
> >eyes and throat.
> if you're
> gonna keep a boxer at bay, using kicks is a decent strategy, only they
> better be hard enough to hurt and better be from a range that's long
> enough.
Well, one would hope so-
Assuming that someone is not going to be able to kick effectively is a
mistake.
> and if you think you're going to get the throat on a boxer you don't
> know anything about boxing - the chin is always tucked and thus the
> throat is an unreality for the "well I'll just hit him in the throat"
> fighter.
A lot of the strikes that are centered on the 'throat' are better used
against the clavicle and the AC joint. Another point that many boxers
fail to protect adequately is the armpit. Hitting the point of the
throat is hard against a boxer that hasn't been distracted in some other
way- generally, it is into the exchange of hands that someone makes a
mistake.
> As for the eyes, well, most people can't even tag the head
> on a boxer, much less a biu jee to the eyes. The only reliable way to
> get the eyes is with a thumb gouge from the tie-up/clinch.
You're talking about removing them- generally an eye strike is another
distraction move; lots of pain and 'intrusion'- people don't like to get
their eyes messed with. Mostly an eye strike would be to distract them
from a groin attack, a hip socket attack, some sort of attack on the
breath- that sort of thing.
> It's
> folly to discount the damage a boxer can do to a typical martial
> artist because of the actual value of boxing.
It's even follier to assume every martial artist of whatever system is a
mallrat couch potato who doesn't come to fight.
Muay Thai boxer
these claims? Since when did YOU become the expert at boxing, muay thai, wing
chun or any other martial art for that matter? Until you can prove something,
don't bother trying to sway anyone.
-Nak Muay
Chas
> twenty year bullshit is twenty year bullshit . i cant believe you can
> say this shit without a shread of evidenc
He was right, it's 'musical fruit'.
What I can't believe is your knee jerk, thoughtless, uneducated,
aggressive ignorance and unwillingness to learn something that you
didn't know before.
You are utterly thick, John/don whatever.
Read a book, did you?
Chas
p...@mail.utexas.edu
wrote:
Well John is a little colorful but he has boxed quite a bit actually.
FB
> Sounds like your a troll, John, what background do you have to substantiate
> these claims? Since when did YOU become the expert at boxing, muay thai, wing
> chun or any other martial art for that matter? Until you can prove something,
> don't bother trying to sway anyone.
>
> -Nak Muay
<g>
p...@mail.utexas.edu
>Conversely, I've not known a boxer to go up against any other art under
>that art's rules.
Hah... who said anything about under the rules? I don't know what
boxing gyms you've been to but you take a boxer and say, hey I bet I
can take you if you let me use kicks, gouges, and the like, and see
what answer you get. Go to a boxing gym and ask away and come back
and let us know.
>Well, one would hope so-
>Assuming that someone is not going to be able to kick effectively is a
>mistake.
Stop contriving, that's not what i said. Some kicks work better than
others, and some kicks also keep you out of harm's way for the most
part. The range at which you're using a lot of WC kicks is tailor
made for the boxer to open up on you. Assuming you "know" boxing
when you've never trained in boxing or officially fought a boxer, is
more of a mistake.
>A lot of the strikes that are centered on the 'throat' are better used
>against the clavicle and the AC joint. Another point that many boxers
Oh gee, we went from talking about the validity of throat hits to now
talking about strikes to the collarbone and ac joint. Nice
Stephie/Eis divert there Chas.
>fail to protect adequately is the armpit. Hitting the point of the
Haahahaaha okay Chas, I can see that but that's same observation from
the bleachers I made once upon a time. I tried that once, immediately
after slipping a left hook... I took a straight right up the pipe for
my trouble. Unless it stops them dead in their tracks you're wasting
your time. I tried all the nerve point crap (armpit, facial nerve
behind the jawbone, brachial nerve, trapezius etc etc.) you can
imagine the first time I rolled with a BJJ guy ever and he had me in
guard. He's a noted guy in Houston actually.... and he was amused.
"Hey, I'm just curious, does that stuff work for you?" When the blood
is hot and the adrenaline's going, you're wasting a lot of your time.
I have to laugh now every time I roll with someone and they try a
pressure point, and I'm not even that good of a groundfighter. Going
for a nerve is a weak strategy, that's last ditch - it's like playing
the lottery... most times ya don't get anything on an opponent hyped
up to kick your ass.
>> As for the eyes, well, most people can't even tag the head
>> on a boxer, much less a biu jee to the eyes. The only reliable way to
>> get the eyes is with a thumb gouge from the tie-up/clinch.
>
>You're talking about removing them- generally an eye strike is another
>distraction move; lots of pain and 'intrusion'- people don't like to get
No I'm talking about a reliable way of actually getting to them. To
strike the eye or even distract you need to have your fingers hit at
least the orbit of the eye. Good luck trying this. One of the big
lessons in boxing you try and learn right away (cuz you're getting
nailed a lot) and that gets drilled into you is head mobility. If you
can't even hit the head with something as big as a gloved hand I
highly effin doubt you're gonna accurately land an eye strike.
>their eyes messed with. Mostly an eye strike would be to distract them
>from a groin attack, a hip socket attack, some sort of attack on the
Which is all nice but we were first talking about actually being able
to hit the eye of a boxer. A boxer who's used to slipping jabs that
are far faster than you can probably launch your biu jee.
>It's even follier to assume every martial artist of whatever system is a
>mallrat couch potato who doesn't come to fight.
Hahah you'll need a better audience Chas. You're talking to someone
who used to train his ass off in wrestling and I was down to 5%
bodyfat and ran a 5:15 mile. Which is not incredible but I was
definitely in shape. And I see equally demanding training in boxing
workouts. It toughens the hell out of your mind And compared to the
guys who box and wrestle etc. most people in MA ARE couch potatoes
both athletically and mentally - they don't train as hard and they
don't have the time spent in ass-kicking, gritty, puke-your-guts-out
live sparring. There are exceptions of course... but I'll go so far
as to say that most boxers are better conditioned physically and
mentally to fight than most martial artists. You'll have to do far
better than a trick or two to put them away.
>Like I said; it's not like nobody never saw a boxer before.
Seeing and doing are two completely different things. People have
"seen" the Dog Brothers plenty and make all sorts of comments about
how "ugly" their technique is, or how they are "open to this or that".
Meanwhile when it comes to actually sparring against the DB's and
their students they get the holy hell beat out of them. To understand
how to counter something, you have to fully understand what it is
first. That comes from experiencing it first-hand. The stand-up
strikers are doing much better in no-holds-barred competition now -
why? because they are all training in grappling and better understand
how to counter takedowns and submissions. Unless you have trained in
boxing, don't expect to really know how to counter it reliably.
John Carlo
you i have mastered boxing used it in all martial art like events and
modified it in the street, bars etc. you on the other hand know a lot
about everthing but have mastered none.
what i dont like his how you spout this horshit --marciano did all his
training in boston and NY city and catskills are you implying this guy
off yours was in any of his camps?? but in auto bioographys marcaino and
ali never even mentions the guy even in passing
John Carlo
thing you miss
John Carlo
it
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> > Like I said; it's not like nobody never saw a boxer before.
Well hell, Frank, I'm glad you finally found something intriguing.
> Everybody seems to *think* they understand boxing, because they've seen it
> so much.
Well, everybody thinks they know something of martial arts from seeing
BLee do something in a movie too.
> But in the years I've trained in it and taught it, I've found that the
> average person -- trained or untrained in martial art -- has an INTUITIVE
> understanding of boxing .... WHICH RUNS COUNTER TO FACT. Very similar to
> submission grappling.
I've found much the same attitude in non- and poorly trained martial
artists; they think they know what's working but they're wrong. Even
more interesting is the attitude amongst boxers and wrestlers that I've
trained and trained with over the years. They just don't see it coming.
> In other words, most of the people who think they understand boxing are
> familiar only with their own ascriptions about it -- having looked, but
> lacking a clue about what they're looking at. They have the intuitive
> understanding of a person who thinks umbrellas cause rain.
Too true- you should see the numbers of streetgeeks that think because
they can mimic something they think they saw Chuck Norris do that
they've got the trick of it.
> I found this out when I started producing analysis documentaries of actual
> fights as a teaching aid. People consistently came back with a, "Man, I
> completely missed what was *really* going on." I've found that those who
> haven't done it lack the eye for what's going on.
Truly- that's one of those aspects that one never understands without an
intimate and personal relationship with a 'teacher'.
> Like I said -- everybody seems to *think* they understand boxing, because
> they've seen it on TV, etc. Because something seems ubiquitous, they think
> they understand it. But then, lots of people see the Sun every day, too,
> and have no clue what it really is, or what it's really doing. Both seem to
> have a history of naive tautology.
So, what's your point?
<g>
Chas
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> >Conversely, I've not known a boxer to go up against any other art under
> >that art's rules.
> Hah... who said anything about under the rules?
Boxing is by definition a system/process with 'rules'. If you want to
make it synonymous with 'pugilism', just say so.
If you want to judge Euromerican pugilism; catch-as-catch-can, against
some other sort of pugilism, just say so. But when you define something
as 'boxing', you take on a lot of formal restraints for which there are
specialty skills to compensate.
> I don't know what
> boxing gyms you've been to but you take a boxer and say, hey I bet I
> can take you if you let me use kicks, gouges, and the like, and see
> what answer you get. Go to a boxing gym and ask away and come back
> and let us know.
Why are you picking fights for someone else? Why in the world would I
walk into the 20th Street Gym and threaten to maim someone? I've
certainly crossed hands with guys whose background and training was as
professional and wish-I-was professional boxers; Bill Messenger, Danny
Valenzuela, Ron Lyle, Jim Prevost, Davey Hatchburn- I've worked a little
with Pat Smith (one of my students travels with him overseas)-
What part do you think I missed?
> >Well, one would hope so-
> >Assuming that someone is not going to be able to kick effectively is a
> >mistake.
> Stop contriving, that's not what i said. Some kicks work better than
> others, and some kicks also keep you out of harm's way for the most
> part. The range at which you're using a lot of WC kicks is tailor
> made for the boxer to open up on you. Assuming you "know" boxing
> when you've never trained in boxing or officially fought a boxer, is
> more of a mistake.
Well, I'm not prepared to discuss WC kicks in detail- that's not my
shot. I probably kick only at short or contact range anyway- so your
point would probably apply to me also. I assure you that I've got a
little something for you at that range.
> >A lot of the strikes that are centered on the 'throat' are better used
> >against the clavicle and the AC joint. Another point that many boxers
> Oh gee, we went from talking about the validity of throat hits to now
> talking about strikes to the collarbone and ac joint. Nice
> Stephie/Eis divert there Chas.
Well, Paul, it's not a diversion. It's an expansion on the point that
you might not have known; a finesse of the art- a little something that
you missed in your brief time of study of whatever.
I can use the same 'entrance' from a number of differing angles of
incidence; against a broad range of targets, either side, high or
low..... the strike doesn't change particularly (small adjustments),
just the focus or the target.
> >fail to protect adequately is the armpit. Hitting the point of the
>
> Haahahaaha okay Chas, I can see that but that's same observation from
> the bleachers I made once upon a time. ..... most times ya don't get anything on an opponent hyped
> up to kick your ass.
Remember the guys I told you about with the gangrenous arm affliction
from a 'point strike'? One of them was hit as his opponent fell away
from him- fell away from him. It was two fingers up into his armpit and
he nearly died- it took them three months to keep him from dying and
about two years to get the arm somewhat back to shape. That was fifteen
years ago and he still has trouble with it.
Don't tell me something you know nothing and less than nothing about.
> >You're talking about removing them- generally an eye strike is another
> >distraction move; lots of pain and 'intrusion'- people don't like to get
> No I'm talking about a reliable way of actually getting to them. To
> strike the eye or even distract you need to have your fingers hit at
> least the orbit of the eye. Good luck trying this.
Again, you're misapprehending something. An 'eye strike' is a jargon
term of art for a particular sort of hand action in a particularly
focussed sort of manner. Another one of those things you'da learned if
you had stuck around wherever.
That same 'eye strike' could hit any part of the face/neck; in the lower
position, you'd use it against the inside front of the thighs, the
groin, the crease of the belly and so on.
It's not the 'target' that is being identified; it's the sort of action
one is doing.
> >their eyes messed with. Mostly an eye strike would be to distract them
> >from a groin attack, a hip socket attack, some sort of attack on the
> Which is all nice but we were first talking about actually being able
> to hit the eye of a boxer. A boxer who's used to slipping jabs that
> are far faster than you can probably launch your biu jee.
Well, that's what the fight is about, isn't it? Who gets to stick who's
finger in whose eyes.
> >It's even follier to assume every martial artist of whatever system is a
> >mallrat couch potato who doesn't come to fight.
> Hahah you'll need a better audience Chas. You're talking to someone
> who used to train his ass off in wrestling and I was down to 5%
> bodyfat and ran a 5:15 mile. Which is not incredible but I was
> definitely in shape. And I see equally demanding training in boxing
> workouts. It toughens the hell out of your mind And compared to the
> guys who box and wrestle etc. most people in MA ARE couch potatoes
> both athletically and mentally - they don't train as hard and they
> don't have the time spent in ass-kicking, gritty, puke-your-guts-out
> live sparring. There are exceptions of course... but I'll go so far
> as to say that most boxers are better conditioned physically and
> mentally to fight than most martial artists. You'll have to do far
> better than a trick or two to put them away.
I know a guy that trains for technical mountainclimbing in Nepal- he can
ruck a hundred pounds up the side of your apartment building a dozen
times a day- he runs 12 miles with a hypobaric depriver that sets his
oxygen at 11,500 ft. He trains Enshin Kyokushinkai, hsing-i and silat. A
former Batt/Recon Marine, he is presently a reserve SF squad leader for
some mountain specialists.
He's independently well to do, so he does nothing but train. A graduate
of ColoSch of Mines, he made his money as a field geologist in the
precious metals exploration.
Do you think he is a pushover for a boxer?
You should get out more.
> >Like I said; it's not like nobody never saw a boxer before.
> Seeing and doing are two completely different things. ....Unless you have trained in
> boxing, don't expect to really know how to counter it reliably.
Unless you've trained in __________, don't expect to really know how to
counter it reliably. Take a note from your example about what happened
to boxers/strikers when they saw grappling coming at them. If you don't
know anything about it, you can't counter it reliably.
I would guarantee you that there are more people familiar with boxing
than are familiar with WC or much of any other asian art conversely.
I submit that Frank is not a boxer. Frank is an amalgamation of all of
the FMA, boxing, karate, &tc. in which he has engaged over the years.
Just because he puts on a pair of gloves and steps into a ring and calls
it 'boxing' don't mean squat ( well, it means he can probably kick
serious ass <g>, but it has little to do with 'boxing' per se).
As for you; a good pugilism and good grappling skills are exactly what
most 'martial arts' are about- being very fit, engaging in hard sparring
because you're reticent to become embroiled in legal action, eschewing
weapons because you're not allowed to carry them- hell, you're doing
just fine.
But, make no mistake- hard training martial artists are every bit as
dangerous as hard training boxers, wrestlers or whatever. Just because
someone has a different solution to a common question doesn't invalidate
it's effectiveness. Boxing is *about* rules- anything else is pugilism.
Chas
Chas
> I have been studing boxing and only boxing for over 20 years chas unlike
> you i have mastered boxing
Is this one of those martial arts that takes twenty years to master? I
thought you guys didn't think that kind of commitment was worthwhile.
> used it in all martial art like events and
> modified it in the street, bars etc. you on the other hand know a lot
> about everthing but have mastered none.
You got that right.
My chan man ran said; 'There is no Master but God, all others are only
Students'.
I'm sure you're very good.
> what i dont like his how you spout this horshit --marciano did all his
> training in boston and NY city and catskills are you implying this guy
> off yours was in any of his camps?? but in auto bioographys marcaino and
> ali never even mentions the guy even in passing
Sure; I'm saying that Willem de Thouars worked for Marciano at one or
more training facilities on the NE coast. Now, I wasn't there, so if you
doubt the validity of the story, there are others to talk to. If I have
my history correct, Willem came to the US about 1954 or maybe a little
later. Just about the only thing he did for a long time was to work in
training facilities for boxers- during that period, he was also training
hard himself (and has continued to do so). He probably did that pretty
consistently until the late 60's. Into the seventies, he trained well
known martial artists and other students and in the eighties and
nineties has been a respected elder teacher who seminars all over the
world.
Who wrote Marcianos' book for him?
Chas
Chas
> FB agin right on the money --the thing closest to you is sometimes the
> thing you miss
That would be our preferred fighting range- good call.
Chas
Ruairi Quinn
Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote in message news:389B12EB...@home.com...
> John Carlo wrote:
> > chas what i know is your full of shit when it comes to thinking marciano
> > and ali learnt those things from a silat man,,
>
>
> Chas
I don't know about that. I kind of like that whole crazy
no-concept-of-punctuation thing. Is he an avante-garde poet or something?
Chas
> fought who chas ,, if your talking about military i would love to hear
> it
John, I've published enough of my fighting background here to answer any
of your questions. There are guys on the list that have known me for ten
or twelve years, others that have visited my home and know me- my public
record goes back thirty five or forty years.
Look it up, I have no secrets.
Chas
longi...@my-deja.com
Silent Bear <burnout6...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>
> No weapons allowed of course.
>
> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
> about you?
>
had to choose between him and Tyson in a no holds fight, I wouldn't even
consider Tyson to have a great chance at hitting Fong once. I only say
this because I have seen both men in action...and the primary reason I
pick Fong is because he doesn't use only wing chun. Fong is something
Tyson has never shown himself to be...an all around great Goddamned
fighter. Not to mention the fact that the one time Tyson hit a guy in
the face in a bar fight (that we know about), he shattered his fragile
hand.
If Fong were restricted to the use of only WC, I would still favor him,
but only because he himself is such a phenomenal fighter, not because I
think WC is a better system than boxing. I just believe, without any
doubt, that Fong is a much better fighter than Tyson will ever be...
And as to your reference to Tyson as "Good Ole Mikey"? If an ignorant,
wife beating shithead can be considered "good", I guess he's a winner
all the way. And didn't he bite Holyfield? Yeah, Good Ole Mikey..a
disgrace to an already disgraceful enough sport as it is.
Longimanus
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -
Free!
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Patrick and Jennifer Younts
p...@mail.utexas.edu wrote in message ...
>>No one other than boxers ( Oh, and the Gracies and Thai kickboxers) ever
>>practices for real. We are all just fooling ourselves. Now if you will
>
>Well, you said it, not me. Let us know when you have worked out at a
>boxing gym, rolled live at a grappling/wrestling/BJJ school, and/or
>gone and sparred at a Muay Thai school, and see if you notice anything
>different.
I have. My buddy trains at a school that teaches Muay Thai and Jiujutsu of
some sort and he and I have worked out in the past. I also spar regularly
with members of my school fight team, who train a mix of San Shou, Chinese
suijiau (sp?) which is a grappling throwing art, and some Muay Thai. All are
tough and all hit very hard, but my techniques have worked well consistently
against them. You want to argue that most martial artists train half-ass?
That's fine, cause you are right. But there are quite a few of us who work
out just as hard as Boxers and BJJers. And there are plenty of psuedo-boxers
and BJJers who train half ass as well, especially since the advent of
Cardio-boxing and the popularity of UFC with the beer and pretzels set.
Kaz
>
> On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:26:07 -0500, Kaz <k...@kaz.net> wrote:
>
> >Boxing and Wing Chun are both infighting systems, but Wing Chun infights
> >even closer in a range boxers would be unaccustomed to; and moreover
> >"traps" and locks the arms of the opponent. This gives Wing Chun a
> >distinct advantage.
>
> vacuum. Most of the people espousing this as gospel however will
> never actually go and try these techniques live against an
> going to be unbiased on this one.
Yes, a Wing Chun fighter by definition must get *very* close and trap
the boxer. Otherwise, he'd be in the boxer's optimum range. After all,
there *is* a reason why Wing Chun trains and prefers the *short*
straight punches/strikes-- that's so as to be *effective* in the very
very close range where the boxer would be ineffective.
Why was Bruce Lee able to develop the "one inch punch"? Because he was
originally a wing chun fighter and trained at striking from a very close
range. Most systems are ineffective at the very close range-- they need
more of a wind up for their punches. However, this is the range Wing
Chun performs best.
> >Not to mention ofcourse the use of kicks, and various strikes to the
> >eyes and throat.
>
> WC's kicks aren't anywhere near as damaging as those of Muay Thai, and
> I daresay WC's kicks are all in dangerously close range - if you're
> gonna keep a boxer at bay, using kicks is a decent strategy, only they
> better be hard enough to hurt and better be from a range that's long
> enough. In my opinion WC's kicks don't measure up in these two
> respects if facing a motivated opponent with a pain tolerance.
I don't think Wing Chun kicks were ever meant to be "devastating" in and
of themselves, but as a means of closing the gap on the opponent; or
used in conjunction with hand strikes.
> and if you think you're going to get the throat on a boxer you don't
> know anything about boxing - the chin is always tucked and thus the
> throat is an unreality for the "well I'll just hit him in the throat"
> fighter. As for the eyes, well, most people can't even tag the head
> on a boxer, much less a biu jee to the eyes. The only reliable way to
> get the eyes is with a thumb gouge from the tie-up/clinch.
Again, the Wing Chun fighter must first close the gap and trap. At that
point, the entire head would be available.
A wing Chun fighter trying to "outbox" a boxer from a distance would be
futile.
John Carlo
John Carlo
John Carlo
p...@mail.utexas.edu
>Yes, a Wing Chun fighter by definition must get *very* close and trap
>the boxer. Otherwise, he'd be in the boxer's optimum range. After all,
>there *is* a reason why Wing Chun trains and prefers the *short*
>straight punches/strikes-- that's so as to be *effective* in the very
>very close range where the boxer would be ineffective.
Well all I gotta say is this - try it. You'll be introduced to the
hook. The only "very close range" where a boxer is ineffective is
either a tie up /clinch, or ground grappling.
FB
> So, what's your point?
> <g>
>
> Chas
<g>
My point, Chas, is that we're talking about a boxer with one of the most murderous
hooks in history. I remember watching him put Jesse Ferguson down, and the punch
from where I stood in the RPI Fieldhouse sounded like someone dropped a phone book
on the floor. Fast, flush, sharp.
And then, we're talking about pairing him up against an ideal opponent for landing
that hook -- in terms of range, posture, angling, defense, etc.
This guy has landed flush at max leverage against other top boxers -- who are very
tough to hit flush and consistently -- and you're telling me that he would have
trouble landing against Wing Chun posture at range? I'm not knocking WC . . .
just sizing things up here.
----------------
As a footnote, Mike Tyson is a pretty astute boxing and fighter. I recall a
conversation I had with him in September's in Albany the night after he put Larry
Holmes to sleep. The focus of conversation was the hook. Nice guy. Very
approachable. Very good boxing vocabulary.
Also, according to friends from Coxsackie/Athens from years back (I went to RCS at
the time, 20 minutes north on 9W) and a friend who is a former sparring partner of
his, he is a "grab you and punch the life out of you and your two friends" kind of
street fighter. Anybody who thinks he's bounded by a "fighting with rules"
mindset needs to check it at the door, cuz I ain't even trying to hear that.
FB
> Chas wrote:
>
> > So, what's your point?
> > <g>
> >
> > Chas
>
> <g>
>
> My point, Chas, is that we're talking about a boxer with one of the most murderous
> hooks in history. I remember watching him put Jesse Ferguson down, and the punch
> from where I stood in the RPI Fieldhouse sounded like someone dropped a phone book
> on the floor. Fast, flush, sharp.
>
> And then, we're talking about pairing him up against an ideal opponent for landing
> that hook -- in terms of range, posture, angling, defense, etc.
>
> This guy has landed flush at max leverage against other top boxers -- who are very
> tough to hit flush and consistently -- and you're telling me that he would have
> trouble landing against Wing Chun posture at range? I'm not knocking WC . . .
> just sizing things up here.
>
> ----------------
>
> As a footnote, Mike Tyson is a pretty astute boxer and fighter. I recall a
Gichoke
>Date: 2/5/00 1:03 PM EST
>Message-id: <SBZm4.606$QN6....@newsfeed.intelenet.net>
Wing Chun guys do martial arts lite.
Freefighting isn't even practiced at the two wing chun schools around here.It's
totally no contact.
Wing Chun has an alleged history of streetfights and challenge matches,yet no
Wing Chun guys have won shit in NHB,kickbong or anything.
This proves that Wing Chun is either...
A) an art that doesn't work.
or
B) Wing Chun guys don't train hard.
Or both.
Which is it?
BTW is anyone else getting bored with that pool-cue maker Chas' constant lies?
"I've trained with boxers"
I've trained with wrestlers"
"Ali and Marciano were silat guys"
He has been laying on the shit piles lately.
He's a delusional old fart that bends over for some nobodynamed De Thouras,and
throws the guys name around like it actually means something.
Gi
Gichoke
>From: longi...@my-deja.com
>Date: 2/5/00 1:59 PM EST
>Message-id: <87hrv5$d1a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <1e6579fe...@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com>,
> Silent Bear <burnout6...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Lets say a fight broke out in the street between Mike Tyson and
>> the best Wing Chun master broke out who do you think would win?
>>
>> No weapons allowed of course.
>>
>> If my I had 5 $ to bet i would put on on good old Mikey , what
>> about you?
>>
>Well, I don't honestly know but one WC master, Francis Fong...and if I
>had to choose between him and Tyson in a no holds fight, I wouldn't even
>consider Tyson to have a great chance at hitting Fong once.
Fong is a short out of shape old asian dude.
Did you see him on that demo on pay-per-veiw 2 years ago?
His uke so obviously leapt into the air because Fong couldn't lift him that I
fell out of my chair laughing.
>Not to mention the fact that the one time Tyson hit a guy in
>the face in a bar fight (that we know about), he shattered his fragile
>hand.
He also shattered the guys orbiter bone,if Tyson hit Fong it would leave skull
fragments for blocks around.
Gi
Gichoke
>Date: 2/5/00 12:28 PM EST
>Message-id: <389C5DA2...@home.com>
Wow.Chas was a soldier?
He must be a badass then...
I retract casting aspersions on his nebulous sexuality.
Gi
Chas
> actually fuckhead iam dsylestic
Yeah, me too- I think that a lot of dyslexic people get into martial
arts- it's physical and directed, but right and left don't mean much;
it's intellectual, but everything is tied to a physical expression; when
people laugh at your spelling, you can beat them up.
What's not to like?
Chas
Chas
> My point, Chas, is that we're talking about a boxer with one of the most murderous
> hooks in history.
Well, then we get to talk about the slickest Wingchunner since Nying
Mui.
I think that, generally, amongst men of that level of combative skills,
that it boils down to timing.
If you compared Oyama with Tyson, Tyson comes up second best in
conditioning and probably second best in getting knocked down and
stomped.
If you compared Tyson with some of the sumo people; I think he comes off
second best in conditioning and maybe second best in getting badly
thumped and then mangled.
I would believe that Tyson wouldn't do well against some of the paqua
guys, the hsing-i guys; I think that the taichi guys have some of the
most murderous hitting I've ever felt- much less the other stuff Mikey
wouldn't like.
At that level of accomplishment, very little separates good fighters.
> Anybody who thinks he's bounded by a "fighting with rules"
> mindset needs to check it at the door, cuz I ain't even trying to hear that.
Well then, he ceases to be a 'boxer' and becomes a 'pugilist' doesn't
he? There is no doubt that little succeeds like a furious barrage of
heavy blows; coupled with biting, headbutts, the elbow, knees, eye
gouges, groin rips and stomps to the feet- you know, martial arts.
He sure is a proof positive that studying a martial art doesn't
necessarily build character or hone the spirit though. I'm glad he's so
famous- otherwise you might not spot him sneaking up on you.
Chas
Chas
> look it up with who chas
Face it bud- literacy is not your forte.
But, since you asked, police reports and newspaper accounts would be a
good start.
Chas
Muay Thai boxer
-Nak Muay
John Carlo
of the reports,
David Williams
"Gichoke" <gic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000205201511...@ng-cs1.aol.com...
> Wing Chun guys do martial arts lite.
> Freefighting isn't even practiced at the two wing chun schools around
here.It's
> totally no contact.
> Wing Chun has an alleged history of streetfights and challenge matches,yet
no
> Wing Chun guys have won shit in NHB,kickbong or anything.
> This proves that Wing Chun is either...
> A) an art that doesn't work.
> or
> B) Wing Chun guys don't train hard.
Most don't train hard these days. Different times and different mix of
students.
The schools out here used to train much more full contact in the early days
and every workout class came complete with going to the sink to rinse the
blood out of your mouth.
Training in Hong Kong in the 50's to the 70's was pretty much the same as
well from what I've heard. Don't know what it is like there now.
Out here in Silicon Valley you are dealing more with us nerdy engineering
techie types :)
It sorta looks a little strange to show up to work with black eyes, brusied
faces, bruised arms etc. and get ready to give that technical presentation.
>
> Or both.
> Which is it?
I can't speak for other schools around the county etc. A lot of this is
going to bottom line to whether you are learning the art correctly. If you
don't have the fundamentals they yes you are going to have less
effectiveness. Yeah you'll wipe the floor with the average strip mall
martial artist if you have some of the principles down, but anyone above
that can very well put your lights out. If you have the basics down, put in
the time training hard and fight full contact then yes you are going to kick
ass.
Training hard is going to of course be on an individual preference level.
Training for NHB? Why? If one wanted to fight for money--take up boxing--the
paydays are better. Again that too is going to be a personal preference.
For me, Wing Chun is a hobby--I'm not in it to enter NHB so I'm not even
close to training at that level. As long as I understand that, and the
limitations that imposes onto my skills and ability so bet it.
David Williams
David Williams
"Kaz" <k...@kaz.net> wrote in message news:389CAF4F...@kaz.net...
> p...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> Yes, a Wing Chun fighter by definition must get *very* close and trap
> the boxer. Otherwise, he'd be in the boxer's optimum range. After all,
> there *is* a reason why Wing Chun trains and prefers the *short*
> straight punches/strikes-- that's so as to be *effective* in the very
> very close range where the boxer would be ineffective.
Wrong! If you think boxers don't know how to fight in a clinch you are
dreaming.
>
> Why was Bruce Lee able to develop the "one inch punch"? Because he was
> originally a wing chun fighter and trained at striking from a very close
> range. Most systems are ineffective at the very close range-- they need
> more of a wind up for their punches. However, this is the range Wing
> Chun performs best.
Bruce Lee's one inch punch is a tournament demo punch.
It is not a correct or optimal demonstration of Wing Chun Short power.
>
> > >Not to mention ofcourse the use of kicks, and various strikes to the
> > >eyes and throat.
> >
> > WC's kicks aren't anywhere near as damaging as those of Muay Thai, and
> > I daresay WC's kicks are all in dangerously close range - if you're
> > gonna keep a boxer at bay, using kicks is a decent strategy, only they
> > better be hard enough to hurt and better be from a range that's long
> > enough. In my opinion WC's kicks don't measure up in these two
> > respects if facing a motivated opponent with a pain tolerance.
>
> I don't think Wing Chun kicks were ever meant to be "devastating" in and
> of themselves, but as a means of closing the gap on the opponent; or
> used in conjunction with hand strikes.
Actually yes they are meant to be devastating. Many of the kicks are
designed to destroy
the opponent's leg completely. Some kicks are simply to either be stop hits
or to distract you enough
to open you up somewhere else.
Wing Chun kicks are not meant to keep an opponent out!!!!
You want him in and then you want to beat the hell out of him.
>
> > and if you think you're going to get the throat on a boxer you don't
> > know anything about boxing - the chin is always tucked and thus the
> > throat is an unreality for the "well I'll just hit him in the throat"
You are only going to get the throat on a boxer if you can open him up
somewhere else.
Going "Throat hunting" or "Trap hunting" is going to get your ass beat down
bad by a boxer.
You are going to have to engage him and shut him down before he can start
launching on you.
Keep hammering him to find an opening, use the opening to create others that
can damage him
and end the fight. It is never going to be about trying to trade punches
with a boxer.
You'll LOSE if you do that.
> > fighter. As for the eyes, well, most people can't even tag the head
> > on a boxer, much less a biu jee to the eyes. The only reliable way to
> > get the eyes is with a thumb gouge from the tie-up/clinch.
Very true.
>
> Again, the Wing Chun fighter must first close the gap and trap. At that
> point, the entire head would be available.
Sigh. Close the gap yes. Trap? NO! that is only an opportunistic byproduct.
The head is only available when it is available. A Boxer knows how to
protect it.
>
> A wing Chun fighter trying to "outbox" a boxer from a distance would be
> futile.
That is correct.
regards,
David Williams
http://www.wingchun.com
b...@xyz.com
>the 5'6" hypothetical best wc guy from china vs tyson? Still go with
>the WC guy, but I'll put less money on it.
>
>josh
ditto
b...@xyz.com
>He has been laying on the shit piles lately.
>He's a delusional old fart that bends over for some nobodynamed De Thouras,and
>throws the guys name around like it actually means something.
>Gi
Are you making jokes? Or serious? Try some quality places off of
www.wingchun.com
How about some Silat places, or San Soo places? How about Pak Mei,
etc.? The medium we're talking in is very difficult at times. I'm
willing to learn.
b...@xyz.com
>John, I've published enough of my fighting background here to answer any
>of your questions. There are guys on the list that have known me for ten
>or twelve years, others that have visited my home and know me- my public
>record goes back thirty five or forty years.
>Look it up, I have no secrets.
>Chas
Ditto. Look it up on deja.com
Kosta
the fight was over. Francis Fong !!! you must be JOKING !!!
Gichoke wrote in message <20000205201852...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
Ruairi Quinn
John Carlo <ama...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:728-389...@storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> actually fuckhead iam dsylestic
>
Whoops.
John Carlo
him??
Kat...@webtv.net
boxing..I've trained both ,,I started boxing as a youth and have done WC
for the past 6 years,,,and the only range I know is the range I can hit
you or kick you..thats it. As for WC power..most practioners are shitty
and I have seen many WC schools and including Mr .Fongs, and I wouldn't
even call him a WC guy his technique was terrible..most are potbellied
hobbiests..but I also have seen some devastating power,,My Sifu and his
have impressed me with speed and power, thats why I started to train in
WC. as for myself I am 5'7" 155', and I have already broke the
supporting slats on the wooden man with a straight punch, and no I have
normal looking hands and most ppl can't believe you can hit that hard
without some kind of protection . Now I am not saying I could damage or
KO Tyson , but I can atest to the power WC holds. its just unfortunate
most practioners don't train proper or have no focus to do so. but there
are some out there. as to why aren't there any in NHB , I can say for my
Sifu's ,both are in there 40's and don't care about showing off there
skills for money, But I do remember a WC guy who entered a Japanese NHB
some years ago around '96 i think, who won and beat the 3 time champ who
was a Jujitsu sumo guy with one palm strike to the ribs and smashed 3 of
them ,,the WC guy was 5'5" 130 something. the other guy was over 6' and
over 250 pounds., In authentic WC at advance level you learn Iron Palm
and not the typical shaolin method,,the only school I have seen that
uses similar methods have been Bagua , the idea is to strengthen the
hands ,skin and tendons to have a elastic quality that upon impact the
tendons expand and contract on there on volition, so the hand is never
held tense which can cause bones to go out of alignment otherwise, along
with that and correct body mechanics you have a very powerful strike
with minimal movement, I have been taught that each strike should have
at least your body weight behind it nothing less and anything more the
possibility of counter is increased . ...Now I see a lot of WC bashing
and most I can agree too due to the lack of real WC in the states, I
have seen 5 of Yip Mans students and only 3 have impressed me, Duncan
Leaung, Alan Lee and William Cheung. The others obviously have never
fought and must of never at least thought what one might be like. They
displayed the usual lean back on rear leg and chain punches down the
center, and thats what most ppl think of wing chun. but thats not real
WC the above 3 Masters display a skill most ppl including boxers wish
they 'd have.,they can hit from all angles and move with ease,, And as
for realistic training ,,I can tell you in Leaung and Lees school if you
train there for 2 hours you will leave with pain in the body,,not only
do the strikes hurt but the defences are set up to destroy the
limbs..They usually wear 2 training pads on 1 forearm when they train
prearranged movement and I have seen ppl have to stop after 5 pak saos
to the arm padded..So insted of knocking the art why not knock the
practioners ,,Ill be the first to do it,, The art is great but I'll be
the first to say that out of 100% of WC ppl only 3% are doing the art
the way it was intended..This was an art where one guy was sent to take
out armed guards at a fortress, Prior Dr.Jan most of the practioners
were part of the revolt to bring China back to its ppl, so if it was
such a bad art why was it used ? and part of the problem now with WC is
that it was never intended to be an art in itself but to supplement the
art you already knew,,Back then in China After you spent your time
learning say Long fist,,you were taught WC to help in reality in combat,
there were no forms as we know today only concepts, much like the Gau
lou style of WC...and Bruce Lee didn't invent the inch punch or jing
that is inherent in a lot of chinese arts,,and to top it off he did it
wrong..too much body movement!
Chas
> chas you boxed ron lye?? and you think on the street you could beat
> him??
I never said I beat him- Ron's a tough man. I knew his mentor; Jim
Stevens that trained Sonny Liston in Arkansas; I knew JoeBaby McKinley
that used to whip him pretty regularly. I knew Sam Chamberlain that took
that kidney of his.
'On the street'? Where else in the world would I meet him? Dog Nose I'm
not going to get in a ring with anyone- taking a beating like that is
silly. It must be a fun sport, but not what I was put here to do.
Chas
Chas
> my forte chas would be whipping your peach stealing ass---- send me some
> of the reports,
John, buddy-
you're a waste of time.
Chas
longi...@my-deja.com
"Kosta" <kos...@total.net> wrote:
> Yeah he shattered his hand , not to mention the guys face !!! With one
punch
> the fight was over. Francis Fong !!! you must be JOKING !!!
No, actually I'm not. I have worked out with and had numerous classes
with Francis Fong, and know perfectly well what I saw of him. Anybody
who knows how to throw a punch halfway worth a shit can break somebody's
facial bones with their fist, and any piece of shit bum can break his
hand in the process.(Both the bones of the hand and face are fragile,
anyway)
But you're right, Tyson proved alot about himself in the bar that
night..not only is he physically violent, belligerent and stupid, he has
limp wrists and fragile hands. He's a bruiser with no class, and the
only way he'd punish someone of Fong's calibre was if they stood still
for him.
Longimanus
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kaz
>
> "Kaz" <k...@kaz.net> wrote in message news:389CAF4F...@kaz.net...
> > p...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> > Yes, a Wing Chun fighter by definition must get *very* close and trap
> > the boxer. Otherwise, he'd be in the boxer's optimum range. After all,
> > there *is* a reason why Wing Chun trains and prefers the *short*
> > straight punches/strikes-- that's so as to be *effective* in the very
> > very close range where the boxer would be ineffective.
>
> Wrong! If you think boxers don't know how to fight in a clinch you are
> dreaming.
Sure they can fight in a clinch; just as Wing Chun fighters can fight in
the kicking range.
But if I was a Wing Chun fighter, I wouldn't want to mess with a TKD guy
at the kicking range. And comparatively, the Wing Chun fighter should be
more effective than the boxer at the very close range.
> >
> > Why was Bruce Lee able to develop the "one inch punch"? Because he was
> > originally a wing chun fighter and trained at striking from a very close
> > range. Most systems are ineffective at the very close range-- they need
> > more of a wind up for their punches. However, this is the range Wing
> > Chun performs best.
>
> Bruce Lee's one inch punch is a tournament demo punch.
> It is not a correct or optimal demonstration of Wing Chun Short power.
True, because the Wing Chun punch doesn't utilize the body in their
strike. But the one inch punch builds on top of the wing chun short
punch, with the addition of the body torque.
> >
> > > >Not to mention ofcourse the use of kicks, and various strikes to the
> > > >eyes and throat.
> > >
> > > WC's kicks aren't anywhere near as damaging as those of Muay Thai, and
> > > I daresay WC's kicks are all in dangerously close range - if you're
> > > gonna keep a boxer at bay, using kicks is a decent strategy, only they
> > > better be hard enough to hurt and better be from a range that's long
> > > enough. In my opinion WC's kicks don't measure up in these two
> > > respects if facing a motivated opponent with a pain tolerance.
> >
> > I don't think Wing Chun kicks were ever meant to be "devastating" in and
> > of themselves, but as a means of closing the gap on the opponent; or
> > used in conjunction with hand strikes.
>
> Actually yes they are meant to be devastating. Many of the kicks are
> designed to destroy
> the opponent's leg completely. Some kicks are simply to either be stop hits
> or to distract you enough
> to open you up somewhere else.
The point was that the kick is not the primarily weapon in wing chun;
nor as sophisticated when compared to some other kicking oriented
styles.
> Wing Chun kicks are not meant to keep an opponent out!!!!
> You want him in and then you want to beat the hell out of him.
I said that the kick was a means of "closing the gap" on the opponent,
not to keep the opponent out.
> > Again, the Wing Chun fighter must first close the gap and trap. At that
> > point, the entire head would be available.
>
> Sigh. Close the gap yes. Trap? NO! that is only an opportunistic byproduct.
> The head is only available when it is available. A Boxer knows how to
> protect it.
Ideally, that's what the Wing Chun fighter wants to achieve in order to
immobilize the opponents hands, esp. with another good puncher.
Ofcourse, he won't always be able to do that.
John McLane
Just out of curiosity who is Emin Boztepe. The name sounds
Turkish although none of my Turkish friends knows him. Is he a
famous martial artist ?
Cheers
And for the last note Tyson would beat the crap out of everybody
I guess ;-))
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
John Carlo
ron lyle on the street?
John Carlo
John Carlo
i ask you about ron ryle a simple yes or no would of been ok but you got
to be a wise guy
you cant even be honest chas a martial artist working with a top
heavyweight and you dont make any assumtions about how you would or
could defend yourself? what strategy would you try to use nothing you
just trained with the guy thats it -then i ask you about sending me
some report about your exploits and again all i get is bullshit . i try
to talk to you chas and you shit on me good for you and by the way Ron
Lyle would of steped on your phony peach stealing ass , you cant admit
though can you chas your so tough
X
care how bad (as in good) Tyson supposedly is, the top Wing Chun martial
artist would clean his clock multiple times. Tyson just punches and bites...
and probably remembers some elbowing. The Wing Chun artist has such a varied
assortment of attacks and can handle much more conflict that Tyson could.
Tyson's main weapon is equivalent to a bar room punch = the Wing Chun guy
having a field day... basically it turns the match into a rookie against a
professional.
John Carlo
answer them what is the problem tough guy
kasti...@aol.com
>
> But if I was a Wing Chun fighter, I wouldn't want to mess with a TKD
guy
> at the kicking range. And comparatively, the Wing Chun fighter should
be
> more effective than the boxer at the very close range.>>>>>>>
A WC fighter wouldn't ever fight in the kicking range with a TKD guy
unless he was a moron.
>
> > >
>
> True, because the Wing Chun punch doesn't utilize the body in their
> strike. But the one inch punch builds on top of the wing chun short
> punch, with the addition of the body torque.
> >>>>>>>
That is a load of crap. You are just thinking of Chain punching. When
you shift and punch,you are torquing your body and using your hips to
generate power. And Bruce Lee didn't create the 1 inch punch, Yip Chun
shows it in one of his books. Its a parlor trick. Short Range power
comes from wallbag work.
kicks don't measure up in these two
>
> The point was that the kick is not the primarily weapon in wing chun;
> nor as sophisticated when compared to some other kicking oriented
> styles.::::::
WC has no primary weapons. Its primary weapon is to attack the opening
the opponent gives you. If that is a kick,you kick. If it is a
punch,you punch etc.
>
>
> I said that the kick was a means of "closing the gap" on the opponent,
> not to keep the opponent out.:::
The kicks can be used to close the gap,but that isn't there only use.
>
>
> Ideally, that's what the Wing Chun fighter wants to achieve in order
to
> immobilize the opponents hands, esp. with another good puncher.
> Ofcourse, he won't always be able to do that.:::::::
A good WC fighter will take what he is given, he won't go in trying to
trap or thinking of what he should do. That is for beginners. The
advanced guys will just react to the opening.
Chas
> hay dog nose you didnt answer my question do you think you could of beat
> ron lyle on the street?
Never had to wonder.
This is no conversation, it's at an end.
Chas
Chas
> just what i thought no reports no evidence just talk
Just what I thought- no pretense of anything but trolling-
plonk
Chas
Chas
> chas i ask you serious questions and you cant give me a straight answer-
> i ask you about ron ryle a simple yes or no would of been ok but you got
> to be a wise guy
No fool- you asked a stupid question.
On the street, you have to deal with what comes- there aren't any
choices. Ron Lyle is a dangerous man, but he's not the only one.
> ...you
> just trained with the guy thats it
You people asked what kind of experience I had with boxers- I told you.
Of course I only trained with him, fool. He's fucking huge; he's in
great condition and you can't do anything except stand there with him
and hit him with your hands. If I had trouble with him, that's not how I
would approach it.
Played football with him too.
> -then i ask you about sending me
> some report about your exploits and again all i get is bullshit .
No, dumbfuck- you asked another stupid question and I gave you a bunch
of references- you want me to lead you by the fucking hand- what a
fucking maroon,
> i try
> to talk to you chas and you shit on me good for you and by the way Ron
> Lyle would of steped on your phony peach stealing ass , you cant admit
> though can you chas your so tough
You should have seen him run while he was getting all those cuts on his
ass.
You don't know shit.
Chas
Gichoke
>Date: 2/6/00 0:10 AM
>If you compared Oyama with Tyson, Tyson comes up second best in
>conditioning and probably second best in getting knocked down and
>stomped.
>If you compared Tyson with some of the sumo people; I think he comes off
>second best in conditioning and maybe second best in getting badly
>thumped and then mangled.
>I would believe that Tyson wouldn't do well against some of the paqua
>guys, the hsing-i guys; I think that the taichi guys have some of the
>most murderous hitting I've ever felt-
Thats it.
Chas has officially been downgraded to shithead.
Gi
Gichoke
>
>Training for NHB? Why? If one wanted to fight for money--take up boxing--the
>paydays are better.
But there is a one in a million shot that you're going to make money boxing
because of the depth of talent.
If you train hard you have a good shot at making some noise in NHB,because so
few people go into it.
>
>For me, Wing Chun is a hobby--I'm not in it to enter NHB so I'm not even
>close to training at that level. As long as I understand that, and the
>limitations that imposes onto my skills and ability so bet it.
Thats great,if you wanna do Wing Chun i'm happy for you,but when these fools
begin telling me that Wing Chun is in some way comprable to real fighting
styles like Boxing, thaiboxing,BJJ and wrestling,it gets kind of annoying.
Gi
Gichoke
>Date: 2/6/00 2:53 AM EST
>Message-id: <389d2750...@news.calweb.com>
>
>On 06 Feb 2000 01:15:11 GMT, gic...@aol.com (Gichoke) wrote:
>
>>He has been laying on the shit piles lately.
>>He's a delusional old fart that bends over for some nobodynamed De
>Thouras,and
>>throws the guys name around like it actually means something.
>>Gi
>
>Are you making jokes?Or serious?
As serious as a kneebar.
>Try some quality places off of
>www.wingchun.com
>How about some Silat places, or San Soo places? How about Pak Mei,
>etc.? The medium we're talking in is very difficult at times. I'm
>willing to learn.
>
Where?,when? and against who? has Wing Chun or silat proven SHIT in any kind of
fighting forum ever.
Wing Chun guys are supposed to be streetfighters... where are the undergroung
tapes of wing chun guys winnig streetfights? I've seen BJJ and boxing used on
tape in REAL streetfights...
why not Wing Chun?
Name me one time a trap was used in NHB?
Just one time.
What about the straightblast?
Or these "kneecap crushing kicks" I just read about?
Where are they?
They are legal in ALL NHB fight.
So WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY???????
gi
Gichoke
>Date: 2/6/00 5:00 PM EST
>Message-id: <87kquk$bqh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <Hubn4.228$g02....@news.total.net>,
> "Kosta" <kos...@total.net> wrote:
>> Yeah he shattered his hand , not to mention the guys face !!! With one
>punch
>> the fight was over. Francis Fong !!! you must be JOKING !!!
>
>No, actually I'm not. I have worked out with and had numerous classes
>with Francis Fong,
And you admit this?
>Anybody
>who knows how to throw a punch halfway worth a shit can break somebody's
>facial bones with their fist, and any piece of shit bum can break his
>hand in the process.
Boxers and NHB fighters break their hands all the time.
But Wing Chun guys don't.
You know why?
CAUSE THEY NEVER FUCKING FIGHT!!!!!
>(Both the bones of the hand and face are fragile,
>anyway)
Thanks for the lesson, brother.
>But you're right, Tyson proved alot about himself in the bar that
>night..not only is he physically violent,
Well... D'uh?
>belligerent and stupid,
Tyson has a 6th grade reading level... so what?
If you wanna talk intellect write to "ask Marilyn".
> he has
>limp wrists and fragile hands.
If Any of us could hit as hard as Tyson we'd break our hands too.
> He's a bruiser with no class, a
No shit.
>and the
>only way he'd punish someone of Fong's calibre was if they stood still
>for him.
Fong couldn't beat a .500 bantam weight.
Let alone a 225 pound of pissed of muscle like Iron Mike.
Gi
Kosta
understand Fong CANNOT compete against Tyson in a fight , Tyson's speed
alone would overwhelm Fong not to mention his other attributes.
longi...@my-deja.com wrote in message <87kquk$bqh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <Hubn4.228$g02....@news.total.net>,
> "Kosta" <kos...@total.net> wrote:
>> Yeah he shattered his hand , not to mention the guys face !!! With one
>punch
>> the fight was over. Francis Fong !!! you must be JOKING !!!
>
>No, actually I'm not. I have worked out with and had numerous classes
>who knows how to throw a punch halfway worth a shit can break somebody's
>facial bones with their fist, and any piece of shit bum can break his
>anyway)
>But you're right, Tyson proved alot about himself in the bar that
>limp wrists and fragile hands. He's a bruiser with no class, and the
>only way he'd punish someone of Fong's calibre was if they stood still
>for him.
>
Kosta
they know , it's how effective is it.
X wrote in message <87l9ls$jbj$1...@news-02.meganews.com>...