Is Frank Dux a Fraud????
Daaaaave
Bloodsport and some rumors about one of the early UFC fighters
brawling with him in a hotel lobby. Now I've heard in numerous posts
here and elsewhere that he is apparently quite a fraud. I've heard
that he made false claims about his military record, that his style of
Dux-ryu ninjitsu is a "fraudulent" style, and have even heard that his
exploits are completely fictional. Does anyone know what is fact and
what is fiction. Did he in fact fight in this Kumite tournament, if so
what were the rules/circumstances, those records they list at the end
of the movie - are those real? Does anyone know of any websites or
other sources of information about this? Aside from curiousity about
Dux himself, I'm also interested in this Kumite tournament. Was there
really an underground NHB invitational only tournament?
Daaaaave
http://www.youwager.com
ViNNY
-Vin
Earl Camembert
Much like the original poster.
Seb3k
spremnim procitati sto je 12 Jul 2004 10:15:51 -0700 napisao/la Daaaaave:
> Was there
> really an underground NHB invitational only tournament?
> Daaaaave
> http://www.youwager.com
Why certanly - http://sokesoto.8m.com/
And if you dont belive Frank Dux is a real deal, you better get a life
right now or he will chop your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if
you ask me.
--
Make tractors -- not war!
Daaaaave
Thanks for the website , i have allready check it out but i cannot
find the info about Frank Dux, i only want to know if this guy is a
fraud or not becuase he became famous after the movie(as far as i
know)... Because his records are amazing.
Daaaaave
http://www.youwager.com
Joao de Souza
>
> Thanks for the website , i have allready check it out but i cannot
> find the info about Frank Dux, i only want to know if this guy is a
> fraud or not becuase he became famous after the movie(as far as i
> know)... Because his records are amazing.
See
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=91r4ne%24khn%241%40amaterasu.scd.ucar.edu
and http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b8boht%24j9p%241%40reader1.panix.com
Chas
> Thanks for the website , i have allready check it out but i cannot
> find the info about Frank Dux, i only want to know if this guy is a
> fraud or not becuase he became famous after the movie(as far as i
> know)... Because his records are amazing.
Dux was a hell of a pug; produced a *lot* of excellent students.
He also puffed his history- a common thing amongst martial artists, and
rightly so. Into his age, he has become kinda weird- supposedly a brain
tumor or something.
'Fraud' is a very strong word for such puffery. If you applied the same
standard to many other martial artists, separated from the performance of
their art, they'd look just as bad. Martial art is unique in that you can
learn it in a very antisocial kind of environment. If you want to square up,
best you tell your own story before someone can tell it for you.
The art is the art- it doesn't matter if you learned from the tengu, from
the CIA assassin masters, on the streets of Canton, or Honolulu, as a
gangster, or a monk.
The interesting thing is that noone seems to question Dux' proficiency, just
his advertising puff.
Chas
Grappler240
>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=91r4ne%24khn%241%40amaterasu.scd.ucar.edu
>and http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b8boht%24j9p%241%40reader1.panix.com
dux is full of crap.
and *I* question his abilities as a fighter too....since no one else has the
balls.
put that in your pipe and smoke it, Frank.
-Grap
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002
Chas
> dux is full of crap.
And he stood up to anyone else who stood up for thirty years.
What's on the floor counts-
> and *I* question his abilities as a fighter too....since no one else has
the
> balls.
Dux is in his sixties, very ill and very frail.
Of course, that's at the end of his life, not during it.
The whole movie thing was Hollywood at it's best- exploiting the dramatic in
a story 'loosely based on....'. That doesn't even begin to speak to the
common aspects of martial arts tradition.
Why do you think they beat a fucking drum as they parade through town?
Japanese warriors used to announce their heritage and exploits; fighter
pilots paint little planes on their aircraft, warriors wear chestsful of
medals, wear different colored belts- it's part of the threat display,
intimidation and credentialing.
Like I say; check out the stories of about half of the available founders,
and you'll be able to question something- and then go bother one of them-
see what you get.
Chas
Grappler240
>
>And he stood up to anyone else who stood up for thirty years.
>What's on the floor counts-
where's your proof, pap. I am a MMAer...i deal in proof, not speculation and
urban legend.
-g
Chas
> >And he stood up to anyone else who stood up for thirty years.
> >What's on the floor counts-
> where's your proof, pap. I am a MMAer...i deal in proof, not speculation
and
> urban legend.
Three to one says you have no knowledge of him at all, other than the given
that he lied about his credentials.
He taught in Southern California, and his guys were very strong competitors
in every kind of competition that was available. He taught lots of cops,
prison guards, local military units and so on. Whatever came to light as his
career came to a close, his technical expertise and fighting ability were
proven over and over again.
It's happening to another guy right now. I won't mention his name, but he
has undoubtedly embellished his experience in the field. The fact that he's
an immensely capable martial artist is undoubted, it's his veracity that's
suspect. In fact, now that I think of it, I can think of a dozen more that
have done the same thing.
In fact, I can think of a half a dozen gunfighters, ace detectives, military
consultants, and at least one knifemaker that have done the same thing.
It's what's on the floor that counts.
Chas
Grappler240
>in every kind of competition that was available. He taught lots of cops,
>prison guards, local military units
you just described hundreds of karate idiots and take my dough (tkd) masters,
Pappy.
Hell....loads of kenpo guys could claim that.
try again.
> Whatever came to light as his
>career came to a close, his technical expertise and fighting ability were
>proven over and over again.
once again....where???
>It's what's on the floor that counts.
i agree. but nobody ever SAW dux do a thing. we only HEAR about it.
i aint about hearin' stuff. show me or shut up.
-grap
Chas
> you just described hundreds of karate idiots and take my dough (tkd)
masters,
> Pappy.
> Hell....loads of kenpo guys could claim that.
> try again.
'could' isn't even germane-
The record is incontrovertible.
> > Whatever came to light as his
> >career came to a close, his technical expertise and fighting ability were
> >proven over and over again.
> once again....where???
SoCal- back about when you were still shitting yellow and wondering about
your foot.
> i agree. but nobody ever SAW dux do a thing. we only HEAR about it.
Just not true- you only hear about it because you're just a baby. Hell, even
van Damme has gotten old in the interim.
Chas
Grappler240
>
>SoCal- back about when you were still shitting yellow and wondering about
>your foot.
oh...you mean the sport karate crap. The "playing tag" full of bullshit rules
"tournaments" from the 70s. Okay.
So he IS a fraud. Proven and done.
thanks, pap.
Chas
> oh...you mean the sport karate crap. The "playing tag" full of bullshit
rules
> "tournaments" from the 70s. Okay.
No, dumbfuck-
They didn't just start smacking one another when you turned 15-
You'd'a been one of the first to fall.
Chas
Grappler240
Pappy...I know ALL about those tournaments. They were bullshit. Just as much
BS then as they are now.
Scary_C
> "Daaaaave" <da...@youwager.com> wrote
> > Thanks for the website , i have allready check it out but i cannot
> > find the info about Frank Dux, i only want to know if this guy is a
> > fraud or not becuase he became famous after the movie(as far as i
> > know)... Because his records are amazing.
>
:) SC.
Sucka
>>> oh...you mean the sport karate crap. The "playing tag" full of bullshit
>>rules
>>> "tournaments" from the 70s. Okay.
>>
>>No, dumbfuck-
>>They didn't just start smacking one another when you turned 15-
>>You'd'a been one of the first to fall.
>>
>>Chas
>
>
>Pappy...I know ALL about those tournaments. They were bullshit. Just as
>much
>BS then as they are now.
>
>-grap
>
Crappler, that's not exactly true. Before the coming of TKD and back before
the litigation and waiver-fests that came after the 80s, they used to let guys
deck each other in karate tournaments.
Trav
Chas
> Crappler, that's not exactly true. Before the coming of TKD and back
before
> the litigation and waiver-fests that came after the 80s, they used to let
guys
> deck each other in karate tournaments.
They used to have ambulances at every tournament- carrying off guys with
concussions, broken bones, heart problems; all kinds of shit. I remember
about '85 when they really started to get restrictive because of legal
issues- insurance costs. In my memory, from say, 1965 or so, until the
lawyers got involved, a lot of tournament fighting was all out- no
'point-hits' to it.
Nobody ever paid much attention to TKD tournaments, because they were closed
to outsiders. The guys that already had BB's in TKD used to enter them and
get disqualified. They stopped letting either Gartin or Randall Goodwin in
the local ones for sending people home hurt back in the late '70's.
Big Bill Stevens had four teeth knocked out, a split patella, several broken
toes, a couple of fingers broken and unbelievable bruising from just one
fight (Sabaki about '81)- fight went to decision because the other guy was
about the same.
Chas
Todd Christensen
I've met him on a couple of occasions. Yeah. He is pretty odd.
Quirky. And spouts some bizarre bullshit about being in 'Nam and
busting child porn rings for the CIA.
But he is really likable. You have to remember bullshit is what
Hollywood demands.
He slipped up during a dinner conversation - and gave me the "you got
me" wink. See MY old man was in 7th Special forces in Vietnam, Dux
calimed to be attatched to the same unit. Anyway he was busted and
took it with some humor (also the math doesn't add up Dux would have
been 16 or so during the Vietnam war).
As for his skills. It was hard to tell. He was in the start of some
very poor helath and didn't interact with us during the work out very
much. But when I watched him warm up and shadow box he moved really
well and two of his older students were fairly skilled boxers and
grapplers. But all of them were into the showy Hollywood stuff.
Despite all that his students donated a shit load of equipment to my
old school when we in really bad shape.
Chas
> As for his skills. It was hard to tell. He was in the start of some
> very poor helath and didn't interact with us during the work out very
> much. But when I watched him warm up and shadow box he moved really
> well and two of his older students were fairly skilled boxers and
> grapplers. But all of them were into the showy Hollywood stuff.
There are guys who'll tell you about being in the Temple, learning from the
monk; the un-named teacher back in their hometown- whatever. The point is
more that the skills must have come from somewhere, and it really doesn't
matter where. There's no onus of intimacy, or even of 'honesty', from a
teacher of martial arts; only performance. You may want him to be some sort
of moral model, but it really doesn't follow at all. Martial arts is mostly
about hurting people and breaking things- finding out that he's telling
whoppers can't be *too* much of a surprise <g>
Chas
Daaaaave
information is very accurate an logical to understand... Thanks for
the info
Daaaaave
http://www.youwager.com
Daaaaave
that reveal that some things he said he did are not logical or true...
thoughts about the thread...
Daaaaave
http://www.youwager.com
Chas
> Hey Chas but this thread is very clear in some statements about Dux
> that reveal that some things he said he did are not logical or true...
> thoughts about the thread...
Go to a monk if you want moral rectitude- there are more of them than there
are good fighters.
Chas
Kevin Hunt
Hi Daaaaaaave...
I studied under Frank, on and off, from 1980 to 1989. When I started at
his dojo (that he'd opened in '78), Frank was displaying a trophy that he
claimed that he'd received for winning a 'kumite' held in 1975, that the
'kumite' was held every 5 years, and that the organization was the (iirc)
IFAA - International Fighting Arts Association (or something like it...).
He claimed to have, on record, the fastest punch, fastest hook kick and
fastest knockout recorded at this 'kumite'. Frank, in those days, claimed
to have been a former Marine, Lance Corporal in rank. He displayed a
newspaper clipping quoting him and reporting about military testimonies
in front of Congress, supposedly discussing the use of nuclear weapons
in Vietnam/Cambodia. In that article he was referred to as Lance Corporal
Dux.
In those early days - 80 to 84 - Frank taught "Koga Yamabushi Ryu Ninjitsu"
(the spelling of jitsu vs. jutsu was a 'sore' point). Only a couple of
years after Bloodsport did the art become "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu" (he claimed
to have traveled to Japan, to the hombu there, to be bestowed that particular
honor - no verification possible). After the movie was done, Frank
got stranger and stranger. Before the movie, Frank was just another strong
ego'd kind of guy - you can tell when guys like that are BS'ing you, but
they've still got a reasonable foundation. After the movie, he just went
off - he'd forget that guys like me had been around him for a good long time
and knew how things had really gone, and start telling stories...
I don't know anything about him these days - I'd read that he'd suffered
a nearly fatal brain tumor about 10-12 years ago. One of the occasional
posters here - Brent Ambrose (swatcop), is still in touch with him.
From a technical side, he had (has?) considerable skill - I was one of his
favorite ukes ('cos I'm bigger than him) and he'd control me without any
problem (we trained *live* in those days, and I did my damnedest to hit,
kick and struggle...) Most of the time it hurt. Hell, it always hurt.
BTW, Chas, if you're reading this - Frank's 3 years older than I am - I'm
45 so he's 48-49 now. That's one of the reasons that his later BS got
difficult to take - he was copping to experience that someone 10 years his
senior *might* have had... The book "The Secret Man" was pure shite, as far
as I'm concerned. The movie Bloodsport is also pure fabrication - on the
whole - but that's Hollywood.
HTH - just some stream of consciousness musings...
Kevin
Chas
> BTW, Chas, if you're reading this - Frank's 3 years older than I am - I'm
> 45 so he's 48-49 now. That's one of the reasons that his later BS got
> difficult to take - he was copping to experience that someone 10 years his
> senior *might* have had...
ahh; I thought he was closer to my age; 60.
Chas
Kevin Hunt
Not unless his claim is true, that he had doubles... :-)
(that was in "The Secret Man").
Kevin
UFC PARKS
Yes, I am afraid so......
Daaaaave
> "Is Frank Dux a Fraud????"
>
> Yes, I am afraid so......
Actually the almost everybody agree that he is a fraud or that there
are lots of contradictions on his tales and statements...
Daaaaave
http://www.youwager.com