Fighting Knife?
Handy
What should you look for in a good fighting knife?
nemo_outis
@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> What should you look for in a good fighting knife?
>
>
The most important thing is to have a knife with/on you. With that said,
any sturdy utility knife is 90% of the way there.
Since "having it" (and that means on you not in your dresser drawer) is
so crucial there are compromises to be made with respect to portability,
concealability, and "social acceptablity" (it won't do to shock the
natives). For this reason most choose a small (under 4-inch blade)
folding knife with a clip. Unless your constabulary is more lax than the
ones I've run into it is important that your knife pass the "general
utility" test with respect to size, configuration and, silly though it
may be, "mean-lookingness." So the knife should not scream "fighting
knife" (it's much better if the manufacturer markets it as, say,
"fisherman's friend" rather than "Rambo Killing machine"). To be legal
you must be able to say with a straight face "It's a tool, not a weapon,
officer."
For actual fighting it's best if the grip fits your hand well (including
wearing gloves, etc. if that's how it may be used) and be reasonably
positive, non-slip. If you use multiple grips (e.g., icepick as well as
sabre or hammer) then you must look for a handle that is not a one-trick
pony in terms of grip possibilities.
A 4-inch blade is twice as long as a 3-inch blade in terms of fighting
(both slashing and stabbing) since the two inches closest to your hand is
mostly "spacer" A fully-serrated blade is far better for fighting (it
slashes through heavy clothing, leather, etc. much better than a plain
blade and leaves a nastier wound that bleeds more freely) but a poor
choice for general utility (unless you like your peanut butter spread
with ridges like quickset). Fully serrated may also flunk the
"meanness" test. Half serrated is an abomination since you seldom slash
with the 2 inches closest to your hand - all the downside of serrated and
none of the advantages.
So look around and find one that works for you. Spend $50 or so and
you're guaranteed of acceptable workmanship and reliability (yes, there
are differences but somewhere over $35 is "good enough" - after that it's
satisfying other needs like esthetics).
Once you select it become intimately familiar with it (preferably not by
flicking it open and shut as you ride the bus :-) Get so you could use
it, drunk, injured, in the dark, with either hand completely
automatically. For that reason many men stay with a particular knife
even after a "better" one comes out - long familiarity.
Regards,
Jerry B. Altzman
on 2006-12-24 23:22 nemo_outis said the following:
> The most important thing is to have a knife with/on you. With that said,
> any sturdy utility knife is 90% of the way there.
I leave this in because it bears repeating.
> natives). For this reason most choose a small (under 4-inch blade)
> folding knife with a clip. Unless your constabulary is more lax than the
If you're going the folding blade path, spring the extra few dollars to
get a name-brand knife that has a lock that *won't* let the blade fold
back down on you. (Think of your typical Swiss Army Knife--there is
nothing to keep the blade from closing if you just push on it a little.)
The Chinese cheapo-knockoffs, I have found, are notorious for having
locks that just ... don't.
(rec.knives is a better source of knowledge on this than I, but I have
only good things to say about S.O.G. knives in my experience, and I have
no relationship to them.)
> choice for general utility (unless you like your peanut butter spread
> with ridges like quickset). Fully serrated may also flunk the
"Serrated knives are better for spreading chunky peanut butter, officer.
The straight-edge blade just shoves all the chunks to the side."
Gerald: I'm surprised you didn't also tell him to have *two* knives.
In any case: if you can, have *two* knives.
> Regards,
//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman jba...@altzman.com www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
Badger_s
wrote:
>Gerald: I'm surprised you didn't also tell him to have *two* knives.
>
>In any case: if you can, have *two* knives.
>
>> Regards,
>
>//jbaltz
OK, here's a knife geek moment. I'm still puzzled and a bit embarrassed to
post this.
I got a very light folder for a present and got the (duh) idea to clip it
to my underwear band to see how light it was.
Then, forgetting it was there, I went to bed. In the morning my underwear
was missing, and now I can't find the knife!
It's here somewhere, maybe on the floor. Fortunately I didn't stab myself.
Don't tell me you've never done this! ;-D
-B
Jerry B. Altzman
> Then, forgetting it was there, I went to bed. In the morning my underwear
> was missing, and now I can't find the knife!
Um, Badg, your underwear was missing. Have you spoken to your wife?
Maybe she got a little worried after you clipped it on and then started
asking her "how about a little Christmas pokin', dear?"
> -B
//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman jba...@altzman.com www.jbaltz.com
nothing says "true love" like a blowjob first thing in the morning
Badger_s
wrote:
>on 2006-12-25 11:05 Badger_s said the following:
>> Then, forgetting it was there, I went to bed. In the morning my underwear
>> was missing, and now I can't find the knife!
>
>Um, Badg, your underwear was missing. Have you spoken to your wife?
>Maybe she got a little worried after you clipped it on and then started
>asking her "how about a little Christmas pokin', dear?"
>
>> -B
Hey, was that you looking in the window, Jer? Kinda shaggy lookin' these
days, homey. ;-p
-B
PS, found it. I took it off during the night and put it between the
mattress and the box spring. My wife actually found it about 30 min later.
PPS I may have been taken advantage of. Cute thing in a Olga gown, or
aliens, I'm not sure. (true story, btw).
nemo_outis
news:ALRjh.6$Ot...@newsfe09.lga:
> Gerald: I'm surprised you didn't also tell him to have *two* knives.
> In any case: if you can, have *two* knives.
You can never have too many knives :-)
Perhaps carry a third "cheapie" to use as a dropper (i.e., to put in the
hand of someone you have dispatched to show he attacked you with lethal
force). I don't have to tell you to keep your prints off it, do I? :-)
Ziplock bags are the thing here. (It takes considerable planning to make
this more helpful than hurtful in terms of self-incrimination - this is
the bare bones version)
Regards,
PS A few other points for the new knifer:
1. Even though your new knife is a thing of beauty you shouldn't keep it
in pristine condition. Even though it breaks your heart, make sure it
has scratches that show it has been used and that it has been
resharpened. An unused knife is clearly being carried as a weapon; a
well-worn one is a perfectly legal tool.
2. Your conversations with friends, co-workers, etc. should ALWAYS
refer to your knife as a tool and you should NEVER talk about how you can
use it as a weapon. I'm serious as hell about this paranoia - you
shouldn't ever post knife-as-weapon talk to rma, rec.knives, etc. under
your own name for the same reason.
3. Some people will keep a knife of *identical* make and model at home
(or on them, in their car, etc. - there are some risks to managing this
sort of strategy). If you ever use your knife under, ahem!, dubious
circumstances, it is far better to ditch it (and doing that right takes
forethought) than try to clean it (a hint of your victim's DNA may linger
somewhere inside the knife's workings). Ditch the old knife and be ready
to present the unincriminating new one (which should have wear marks,
too, naturally) to the cops as your regular carry knife. Obviously, do
not ever talk about this strategy with ANYONE (and that includes family
members). Do I have to tell you not to buy the knife with a credit card?
(Actually, it's better to buy it in another town.)
Jerry B. Altzman
>> In any case: if you can, have *two* knives.
> You can never have too many knives :-)
[...more advice that well, you didn't hear here, from us, we never said
anything...]
> 2. Your conversations with friends, co-workers, etc. should ALWAYS
> refer to your knife as a tool and you should NEVER talk about how you can
> use it as a weapon. I'm serious as hell about this paranoia - you
> shouldn't ever post knife-as-weapon talk to rma, rec.knives, etc. under
> your own name for the same reason.
Now, you see, *that's* the Gerald Moffatt (sp?) that we know and love!
> 3. Some people will keep a knife of *identical* make and model at home
> (or on them, in their car, etc. - there are some risks to managing this
> sort of strategy). If you ever use your knife under, ahem!, dubious
> circumstances, it is far better to ditch it (and doing that right takes
> forethought) than try to clean it (a hint of your victim's DNA may linger
> somewhere inside the knife's workings). Ditch the old knife and be ready
> to present the unincriminating new one (which should have wear marks,
> too, naturally) to the cops as your regular carry knife. Obviously, do
> not ever talk about this strategy with ANYONE (and that includes family
But it's OK to talk about it on r.m-a...
> members). Do I have to tell you not to buy the knife with a credit card?
A good policy is to buy as LITTLE on credit cards, for a whole host of
reasons, as you can.
> (Actually, it's better to buy it in another town.)
What, no mention of blast furnaces, acid baths, and metal crushers? :-)
nemo_outis
> Now, you see, *that's* the Gerald Moffatt (sp?) that we know and love!
Merely another alias :-)
Regards,
Badger_s
The thing is, new stuff is happening and b/c of inflammatory comments many
have been killfiled. We can't invite them to the mailing list, or any of
the other r.m-a insider stuff and resources and back channel, since that
requires trust.
What you see on the newsgroup is only the tip of the iceberg.
There are some nice people that aren't in there either, because we can't
establish a basic identity and don't know who they are. They know who they
are and are fine with that. So be it.
I'd like to see Gerald come back and the political BS alias to go away,
personally. If not, I'm repopulating my killfile now. Everyone has a second
chance to be nice, drop the sockpuppetry if they want to. If not, no
problem. ;-D
-B
The Space Boss
Handy wrote:
> What should you look for in a good fighting knife?
There are a lot of "Combat Knives" in Soldier of Fortune magazine.
Rabid Weasel
> A fully-serrated blade is far better for fighting (it
> slashes through heavy clothing, leather, etc. much better than a plain
> blade and leaves a nastier wound that bleeds more freely)
I've heard this claimed a lot but never really seen any solid evidence
that supports the idea of a serrated knife performing better at certain
slashing cuts than, say, a rough-sharpened plain edge.
You know what I mean by rough-sharpened, right?
(IH),
Kirk
nemo_outis
news:pan.2006.12.26.13.52.15.491970@NO12315SPAM+dayton.net:
I suppose there is some legitimate scope for debate whether a nano-serrated
(rough/coarse-sharpened) blade cuts fibrous material as well as an overtly
macro-serrated blade. But IMHO the burden of proof falls on the rough-
sharpeners as to how close they come in effectiveness.
Conceivably it helps make the knife more versatile since the claim is the
rough-sharpened blade also works tolerably well as a plain edge. I hae me
douts - in my experience such approaches usually compromise one function in
favour of another, rather than achieving the best of both.
However, it may be a worthwhile tradeoff for some, particularly if large
serrations make the knife seem "wicked."
Regards,
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>For this reason most choose a small (under 4-inch blade)
>folding knife with a clip. Unless your constabulary is more lax than the
>ones I've run into it is important that your knife pass the "general
>utility" test with respect to size, configuration and, silly though it
>may be, "mean-lookingness." So the knife should not scream "fighting
>knife" (it's much better if the manufacturer markets it as, say,
>"fisherman's friend" rather than "Rambo Killing machine"). To be legal
>you must be able to say with a straight face "It's a tool, not a weapon,
>officer."
http://www.victorinox.com/index.cfm?site=victorinox.ch&page=184&lang=E
> 4"
Lockback
Innocuous looking, and various model names like "Backpacker" and
"Picknicker".
No clip, but comes with a cordura belt pouch, or fits comfortably in
pocket..
Some models can be found with thumb-opening hole rather like spyderco.
Cheap enough to be disposable.
nemo_outis
news:pbn2p21r6vlekq1u9...@4ax.com:
> http://www.victorinox.com/index.cfm?site=victorinox.ch&page=184&lang=E
They might be acceptable for some. However, I find they are too much
multi-tool and too little knife. Moreover, the handles are somewhat
awkward and they really are two-hand openers. They are ostensibly benign
though since you might easily claim it was a "Chief Scout" present.
Regards,
Rabid Weasel
> However, it may be a worthwhile tradeoff for some, particularly if large
> serrations make the knife seem "wicked."
How 'bout just a PITA to sharpen? I've got a Cold Steel with their
serrations on it. Even *THEY* refuse to sharpen them for you.
Even the serrations on my trusty Shrade are a lot more time consuming to
sharpen.
And all for no real benefit that I've ever been able to see.
(IH),
Kirk
nemo_outis
Serrations really are a PITA to sharpen. And a plain edge is far better
for general utility.
But I remain convinced that its ability to slash through heavy clothing,
leather, and even human tendons, makes a serrated edge the better choice in
a fighting knife (particularly for small knives - other factors come into
play for larger knives like Bowies)
Regards,
Rabid Weasel
> But I remain convinced that its ability to slash through heavy clothing,
> leather, and even human tendons, makes a serrated edge the better choice in
> a fighting knife (particularly for small knives -
One complaint I've often had for knives with partial serrated blades is
that the serrations are *always* in the wrong place for SD slashing. They
should be on the belly near the tip, at the curve, not down deep on the
belly near the base. This is just all backwards, really. Plain edge down
there for push-type cuts, like whittling and the like. Serrations high on
the blade for slashing (if that's you're purpose for them).
> other factors come into
> play for larger knives like Bowies)
Now you're talk'n!!!
(IH),
Kirk
Chas
> How 'bout just a PITA to sharpen? I've got a Cold Steel with their
> serrations on it. Even *THEY* refuse to sharpen them for you.
> Even the serrations on my trusty Shrade are a lot more time consuming to
> sharpen.
But you get three times the cutting surface- so the trade-off is pretty
obvious. They also get dull slower than a common edge. They will keep
cutting for far longer than un-serrated blades will.
> And all for no real benefit that I've ever been able to see.
Serrations cut fibrous material better than a common edge- ask
EMT's/Firefighters and State Patrolmen cutting things like seat-belting.
They cut light line really well; less so with hawser line.
My favorite cheapass throwaway is a Spyderco Catcherman- the folding
filleting knife with the serrated edge. It's long, very pointed, very thin
profile, under $50- last time I knew.
Chas
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
Like I said, there are some models with the thumb-hole opening. Also,
some (including the picknicker) have a moderately serrated blade.
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO12315SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>> How 'bout just a PITA to sharpen? I've got a Cold Steel with their
>> serrations on it. Even *THEY* refuse to sharpen them for you.
>> Even the serrations on my trusty Shrade are a lot more time consuming to
>> sharpen.
>
> But you get three times the cutting surface- so the trade-off is pretty
> obvious. They also get dull slower than a common edge. They will keep
> cutting for far longer than un-serrated blades will.
>
>> And all for no real benefit that I've ever been able to see.
>
> Serrations cut fibrous material better than a common edge- ask
> EMT's/Firefighters and State Patrolmen cutting things like seat-belting.
> They cut light line really well; less so with hawser line.
I have my doubts. Lots of professionals have been using knives for eons.
Leather is pretty fibrous. How many of your leather knives are serrated?
I've known lots of seamstresses and the like. Can't think of any of their
cloth knives that were serrated. Then there's the merchant seaman knives.
Despite the fact that any goob with a round file and a bit of patience can
make basic serrations, no one bothered with serrations on sea-duty knives
until the last few years; and they had to cut line, sail, etc.
In fact, that seems like a pretty good argument right there: Basic
serrations are pretty easy to hand-machine into a basic work knife but
they really weren't until the last few decades. You'd think that if they
were *that* much better, people would have been going to the extra
trouble. But they didn't, by and large.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
nemo_outis
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:25:02 +0000, nemo_outis wrote:
>
>> But I remain convinced that its ability to slash through heavy
>> clothing, leather, and even human tendons, makes a serrated edge the
>> better choice in a fighting knife (particularly for small knives -
>
> One complaint I've often had for knives with partial serrated blades
> is that the serrations are *always* in the wrong place for SD
> slashing. They should be on the belly near the tip, at the curve, not
> down deep on the belly near the base. This is just all backwards,
> really. Plain edge down there for push-type cuts, like whittling and
> the like. Serrations high on the blade for slashing (if that's you're
> purpose for them).
Yup, they build 'em backwards. Half-serrated (as nearly universally done)
is an abomination.
nemo_outis
news:uf-dndsfDbpEFQzY...@comcast.com:
> My favorite cheapass throwaway is a Spyderco Catcherman- the
> folding filleting knife with the serrated edge. It's long, very
> pointed, very thin profile, under $50- last time I knew.
>
> Chas
Excellent lightweight slashing knife; I have doubts whether it will stand
up to stabbing if it encounters resistance (very thin material could
bend/break at tip if it hits something solid - e.g., rib, zipper, buckle,
etc.) and I don't like the point not being in-line (even though that gives
more curvature for the slash). I worry about the tip breaking even on the
Spyderco Police.
Regards,
Chas
> I have my doubts. Lots of professionals have been using knives for eons.
Yeah; the difficulty was cutting the serrations- I heard the price quoted of
a quarter million dollars for the production cutter they were using here.
> Leather is pretty fibrous. How many of your leather knives are serrated?
I use a rolling edge a lot- called a 'Head Knife'. Lots of my edges are
curved like single serrations. I don't much use a common-edged knife.
> I've known lots of seamstresses and the like. Can't think of any of their
> cloth knives that were serrated.
Except for pinkers.
> Then there's the merchant seaman knives.
Yes; one of the places that the serrated edge shines.
> Despite the fact that any goob with a round file and a bit of patience can
> make basic serrations, no one bothered with serrations on sea-duty knives
> until the last few years; and they had to cut line, sail, etc.
Nah; serrations are hard to cut.
They break line with an ax or by hammering the knife blade through with a
billet. Light line cuts better with serrations than without.
Sail is cut with very heavy shears that often have a series of teeth on the
bottom, to keep the cloth from turning in the cut. It is also cut with
chisels- as with eyelets to be whipped, less with a common knife.
> In fact, that seems like a pretty good argument right there: Basic
> serrations are pretty easy to hand-machine into a basic work knife but
> they really weren't until the last few decades.
Not true- look at the way Spyderco serrations are cut- hard to do with
anything but a multi-head cutter. That's why they're only sharpened on one
side. When they were making the Civilian here in town, I got to hear all
about the problems in producing the specialized edge.
> You'd think that if they
> were *that* much better, people would have been going to the extra
> trouble. But they didn't, by and large.
I think your assumption is flawed- particularly as comparing the multi-cut
modern serration with the earlier attempts.
Chas
Chas
>......I have doubts whether it will stand
> up to stabbing if it encounters resistance (very thin material could
> bend/break at tip if it hits something solid - e.g., rib, zipper, buckle,
> etc.) and I don't like the point not being in-line (even though that gives
> more curvature for the slash). I worry about the tip breaking even on the
> Spyderco Police.
I view it as a consumable that probably won't fail catastrophically- a
makeshift compromise for a real fighting knife.
Chas
Perk
>
>> And all for no real benefit that I've ever been able to see.
>
>Serrations cut fibrous material better than a common edge- ask
>EMT's/Firefighters and State Patrolmen cutting things like seat-belting.
>They cut light line really well; less so with hawser line.
>My favorite cheapass throwaway is a Spyderco Catcherman- the folding
>filleting knife with the serrated edge. It's long, very pointed, very thin
>profile, under $50- last time I knew.
>
>Chas
>
I just recently put a new Spyderco Delica into use.
After 10 years of use from the same recently misplaced.
Had the blade touched up twice in that time.
Cut paper, rope card board, carpet etc.
Abused it misused it and it never failed to take the heat.
Held an edge better than anything before or during that time.
I retired a Kershaw within a year, doing less than half the work.
Kershaw is on my do not use list.
Perk
Rabid Weasel
> Nah; serrations are hard to cut.
...
>> In fact, that seems like a pretty good argument right there: Basic
>> serrations are pretty easy to hand-machine into a basic work knife but
>> they really weren't until the last few decades.
>
> Not true-
Just not so. Man has been able to file groves and cuts with high
precision since ancient times. Look at the Antikythera Mechanism and it's
brethren.
We've been able to make serrations since longer than we've had *steel* and
we haven't done it. There's gotta be a better reason than, "it was hard
to do." I'm betting the reason is, "there's not enough of a ROI."
Chas
> Just not so. Man has been able to file groves and cuts with high
> precision since ancient times. Look at the Antikythera Mechanism and it's
> brethren.
Yeah; mostly chisel-cut and stoned in bronze- as contrasted with cutlery
steel.
I've seen 19th cent. serrated swords- it wasn't uncommon in Turkish/Persian
'scimitar' blades. The scallops were formed with a swedge and stoned to
finish- no filing to it.
I don't think serrations were impossible to make, but they would have been
difficult enough to accomplish that any advantage would be minimal by
comparison.
There's a good serrated sword in 'Cutthroat Island'- carried by the Frank
Langella character. I believe it is an antique sword, used as a prop. The
serrations are wide 'V' shapes, rather than the scallops.
> We've been able to make serrations since longer than we've had *steel* and
> we haven't done it.
Lots of 'flints' were deliberately serrated- more than what is just
generated by making the edge.
> There's gotta be a better reason than, "it was hard
> to do." I'm betting the reason is, "there's not enough of a ROI."
Until being able to set up power grinding jigs for mass-production.
Which is exactly what happened.
Chas
Pierre Honeyman
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> cloth knives that were serrated. Then there's the merchant seaman knives.
> Despite the fact that any goob with a round file and a bit of patience can
> make basic serrations, no one bothered with serrations on sea-duty knives
> until the last few years; and they had to cut line, sail, etc.
My brother works on the water constantly, and the best gift I *ever*
gave him was a Spyderco Endura with a serrated blade. He raves about
that thing still and I gave it to him 4 years ago. In fact it made
such an impression on him that, when it was time for him to push for
bonuses for his crew, he showed his boss his knife and said "Get them
all one of these."
Pierre