Whats the best martial art or principle for womens defense
nomad
Many thanks
nomad
kirks...@yourclothesoperamail.com
I'd answer this, but we have our very own resident, live, female.
Right here!
Live!
(We finally managed to stun gun and capture one. Now we must encourage
breeding)
TTT for T
ps: till she gets here -
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
*****************************************************
Remove "YOURCLOTHES" to email me
*****************************************************
Chas
> Whats the best martial art or principle for womens defense
The best I've ever seen is SEAsian- the stuff out of the village society or
the temple practices. The 'arabic' stuff is particularly good- the muslim
arts and the guys that had to deal with muslims.
Thai, Burmese, Indonesian/Malaysian, Filipino- they all have female
practitioners of arts that have been dealing with capable aggressors for
centuries.
Chas
T
T
> www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
Interesting site.
T
Though the huge number of spelling errors is really unprofessional.
These aren't typos, they spell endorphin(s) 'endorphine(s)'consistently,
for example.
And bad information, another example:
"It is well known that people in severe pain go into "shock." When this
happens the body releases epronepherene and other endorphines to handle
the pain. A person in this state has a much higher tolerance to pain.
What is important to realize is that most people who are in shock,
aren't aware of it. In fact, many will insist that they are fine and
attempt to continue to operate."
Guessing, here, that 'epronepherene' is epinephrine isn't hard for
someone educated, though if this were new information to someone she'd
be lost trying to follow up, I think.
But more fundamentally, shock isn't the explanation for berserking, at
all. There's a ton of writing on this site; too bad no one competent
edited, or even proofread, it.
kirks...@yourclothesoperamail.com
It has some flaws, but IMHO, the core message is quite sensible.
wal...@yahoo.com
self defence unlike sport based combat is about survival. one should
learn how to recognize a conflict before it happens so as to avoid it.
and have as much firepower as possible to be the overwhelming force
should one become involved.
wallen.
sgt_robe...@yahoo.com
following fundamental principle of women's self-defense: "don't date
assholes."
sgt
Rabid Weasel
Weapons.
There are other good ones too, but that's the *best* (as requested).
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Fraser Johnston
"T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote in message
news:Tx5Oe.222330$X76.1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Thats a nasty dose of the correct you have caught there T.
Fraser
RTWde...@earthlink.net
<<learn to use a weapon and always carry it with you.>>
situation, to start thinking about whatever's close at/in hand and how
to make 'that' a weapon (e.g., a pen or pencil, a lit cigarette, their
purse w/ the kitchen sink in it, a spiked high heel, etc). Ideally, the
split second gained should be used to run like hell.
Peace....RTW
Gernot Hassenpflug
nomad> Whats the best martial art or principle for womens defense
One of my ex'es used to joke that the best self-defence for a woman
was to have a man around who could be used as a buffer while she
skedaddled the heck out of there.... I rapidly passed her on to a
not-so-good friend of mine.
--
G Hassenpflug * Takemusu Aikido Juku Dojo Osaka
unrestra...@hotmail.com
Sounds like an upfront and sensible woman. Are you sure you didn't make
a mistake?
Kermit
Karen Nagai
Gernot Hassenpflug <ger...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>One of my ex'es used to joke that the best self-defence for a woman
>was to have a man around who could be used as a buffer while she
>skedaddled the heck out of there.... I rapidly passed her on to a
>not-so-good friend of mine.
>
were trouble, he needed to protect himself first and
foremost. It was my job to protect myself and the kids.
Truth is, he could replace us, but we couldn't replace
him.
These days with the kids grown and all, I just say
everyone for themselves and I'm taking as many as I can
with me.
karen
>--
>G Hassenpflug * Takemusu Aikido Juku Dojo Osaka
--
SPORTfighter
Almost every other form of rape defense is total bullshit.
I kicbox and spar MMA with woman daily.I weigh only 163.And frankly a
woman (even most tough athletic ones) simply cannot generate the force
to well bludgeon a man and get much of a response.It just doesnt hurt.
As for dirty moves.... they are more rapists thing than a soccor
moms.And again, they work best in movies with scripts.
If you are a woman about to get raped, you probably only found out
AFTER his weight is on top of you.If it isnt, then run.
I have no faith at all that krav maga or RMCAT instructers who are
woman could resist the average rape attempt.
I offer myself to allow them to prove it.
I shall uise no technique at all , pick them up, slam them down and get
between their legs as they elbow, knee, bite and scratch me.I will do
it 10 times in a row and bet cash money they cannot stop me.Or even
delay me much.
HOWEVER....
Were I to blunder at a woman groundwork speciatlist in the same way I
will wind up chocked out or maimed.
Every day at my gym 135 pound badass MMA fighters defeat over 200 pound
bruisers.
Though the 135 pounders have wide ranging skills they do not do so with
strikes.It is impossible.
If my previous post shows up, sorry I double posted.
Woman need BJJ.Maybe Judo, if that school well vovers the guard.
Beyond that.She shouldnt waste her time.Its bullshit.
Gi
pikatxu
dragon ball jiu jitsu
RTWde...@earthlink.net
at all , pick them up, slam them down and get between their legs as
they elbow, knee, bite and scratch me.>>
Gi....one technique I teach is the eye gouge. Now granted, one's got to
get their thumbs up to an assailant's face to perform the technique
effectively but my thought is a perp would be just a little distracted
if a thumb (especially one w/ a long, pointy fingernail) is buried a
few inches in his eye socket(s). But then again there are those perps
who go into a "beserker" mode and then nothing phases them.
Eye gouges are not exclusive to any MA's system and if a woman can get
over the "eww, yuck" factor, would do the trick to hopefully distract
their assailant enough for the flight instinct to take over.
RTW
Badger_South
<RTWde...@earthlink.net> wrote:
How do you perform this eye-gouge? Have you ever tried to do it against an
average male who you've said 'ok, go ahead and do a takedown, I'm going to
try an eye-gouge (or don't tell him, even). Then after the takedown (even
ue a mat) as he's trying to get in position, you reach up and try to get
the eye gouge set in (though maybe not applied with your sharpened
thumbnails for purposes of demonstration).
I'm not suggesting that you -can't- do it, just that you ought to try it
with a few subjects just to get an idea if there are problems, or if it's
easy to get out of, both in tests where the guy knows you're going to try
it and in tests where he doesn't know.
Might help broaden your technique.
OTOH, if you've only done it in 'demo mode' with a cooperating male
partner, then you may be missing important elements of your delivery
system. Don't you owe it to your students to at least try to do it in a
realistic situation? Offer the guy a prize if he gets into position - give
them some motivation. Doughnuts, pizza, baseball cap, etc. ;-D
-B
Chas
> How do you perform this eye-gouge? Have you ever tried to do it against an
> average male who you've said 'ok, go ahead and do a takedown, I'm going to
> try an eye-gouge (or don't tell him, even). Then after the takedown (even
> ue a mat) as he's trying to get in position, you reach up and try to get
> the eye gouge set in (though maybe not applied with your sharpened
> thumbnails for purposes of demonstration).
I've seen a couple of instances wherein the orbit was hanging by the stringy
shit- ended the fight right then and there.
Another few where jamming a finger in the eye-socket produced screaming and
ended the fight- a lot more wherein the dominance of the stronger, more able
and fit opponent was neutralized by getting thumbed in the eye with a glove.
I've known a couple of guys, blind in one eye, who's credibility I honor
when they tell me how they lost their sight to a finger whilst in a fight.
In fact, now that I think about it; I've never seen anyone prevail in a
fight after being eye-gouged. I've seen some guys shake off an accidental
hit- but more often even then, the fight is stopped.
> I'm not suggesting that you -can't- do it, just that you ought to try it
> with a few subjects just to get an idea if there are problems, or if it's
> easy to get out of, both in tests where the guy knows you're going to try
> it and in tests where he doesn't know.
It ain't brain surgery-
you know, unless it is.
It's not like there's much confusion about how to do it effectively, or the
results of doing it- and of course it depends on actually 'doing it'. The
most difficult aspect of teaching women to do *anything* is overcoming the
fear/icky factor when responding to an attack from surprise.
Chas
Karim
> > How do you perform this eye-gouge?
> >
> you know, unless it is.
Depends how deep the finger goes, really.
--
Karim <remove SPAMFREE: karimSrPaAsMhFaRdEE at gmail dot com>
Badger_South
wrote:
>> I'm not suggesting that you -can't- do it, just that you ought to try it
>> with a few subjects just to get an idea if there are problems, or if it's
>> easy to get out of, both in tests where the guy knows you're going to try
>> it and in tests where he doesn't know.
>
>It ain't brain surgery-
>you know, unless it is.
>It's not like there's much confusion about how to do it effectively, or the
>results of doing it- and of course it depends on actually 'doing it'. The
>most difficult aspect of teaching women to do *anything* is overcoming the
>fear/icky factor when responding to an attack from surprise.
>
>Chas
Thank you for the details on elective field surgery. ;-)
At the very least, someone who is advocating this should be trying to train
it, integrate it, do it with a partner similar to the size they're
expecting to fight, and in similar conditions.
If the bad guy had wrap sunglasses, then you'll want to add that to the
training. Let your training partner wear protective goggles at first,
perhaps. Try it with half pressure but full aliveness and full resistance.
Now I wouldn't even bother to suggest additional training on this to
Theresa. After all she has a delivery system. Pull guard, get triangle,
pull arm across waist and trap it, then she has -both- hands free and can
apply the eyegouge in SLOW-motion, taunting at the guy and blowing him
kisses.
Get it? Delivery system. ;-)
If you -don't- have a reliable triangle, then you need to cobble together
something else, such as mitigated training and that doesn't always work. A
reliable triangle works under stress. Being able to grab the guy's ears
with both hands and set your thumbs for an eyegouge may not work
understress - as soon as you start getting it the guy squeezes his eyes
closed and shakes his head and then he -really- hurts you, or puts head on
belly, where you can't reach him, or buried his face in your neck, or
mounts you and sits high and you can't even reach his head.
If you had a cool Silat move, say breaking my hand. I'd probably dispute it
a little, (though it may be ill-advised, because you're an animal).
However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles me
and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So I'm
not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails with a
small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
If you said you had a move like that I'd simply want to know your delivery
system. OK, no saying you'd KTFO me and then do it, that's cheating. You
might as well say you'd give me rohypnol. It's good silat but not a martial
solution. If someone -can't- tell me (or show me) their delivery system,
and they're not a 'phenom', then they're just bullshitting, man.
Let's agree to stick to martial solutions even if just for the sake of
argument. If you start talking about how your pet Lion is helping you, or
you're holding me at knife point, well, duh, sure, but what good is that?
After, you wouldn't hold me at knife point to break my little finger -
you'd just stab me, or shoot me.
-B
Fraser Johnston
<RTWde...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1124890103.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Works for Chuck Liddel.
Fraser
SPORTfighter
PRACTICE IT.HOW? If you cant spar it i dont see why not just say
"eyegouge too"
but blinking is a good defense from gouging.and a stronger person can
control you in the clinch.eyes are small and well protected.
i control; weaker people.they dont contrl me.i got eye attack
chances.not them.
standing ? run.
held? learn to fight.
Gi
PT
> > > How do you perform this eye-gouge?
> > >
> > It ain't brain surgery-
> > you know, unless it is.
>
> Depends how deep the finger goes, really.
You're thinking of the nose bone attack.
Let's TRY to keep our fatal anatomical
penetrations straight, IF you don't mind -
---
Paul T.
Chas
> At the very least, someone who is advocating this should be trying to
> train
> it, integrate it, do it with a partner similar to the size they're
> expecting to fight, and in similar conditions.
The part you can't fake is the surprise- and with both an attack from
ambush, and a defense to an attack from ambush, that's a major factor.
The other aspect is the intent of the attacker. If he wants pussy, his
actions are going to be different from if he was bent on breaking her up, or
taking her Championship belt, or simply submitting her for the enjoyment of
the crowd.
> Get it? Delivery system. ;-)
Uh, yeah, Badge- heard you a couple of years ago.
Learn anything since then?
Do you teach women at all?
> If you had a cool Silat move, say breaking my hand. I'd probably dispute
> it
> a little, (though it may be ill-advised, because you're an animal).
You're looking for a 'move', I'm talking about an integrated system of
movement- the very 'delivery system' that you're wondering about.
> However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles me
> and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So I'm
> not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails with
> a
> small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful rapist.
> If you said you had a move like that I'd simply want to know your delivery
> system.
And wouldn't understand the answer when you heard it- because you haven't so
far.
Our delivery system starts with the 'platform'- essentially the angle of
incidence to the opponent. You can take the platform, or respond to the
platform- either is acceptable.
Next, you have 'posture'- the use of your personal shield, and your
automatic body weapons.
Then you have technical principles- what basic idea of combat are you going
to use-
Then application- how are you going to introduce the technical essence in
actual physicality.
As we mix percussion/grasping/grappling at will, there is no 'hard&fast'
rule about how we act or respond- it will, hopefully, be appropriate to the
stimulus.
And that doesn't even speak to attacks- only defenses.
> Let's agree to stick to martial solutions even if just for the sake of
> argument.
Sure- remind me of all the eye-gouges you've seen that were shaken off by
the mma competitor who ignored it and went on to win- little accidental
stubs don't count.
Chas
Badger_South
wrote:
>> However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles me
>> and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So I'm
>> not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails with
>> a
>> small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
>
>Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful rapist.
A comment like that is beneath you and I'm no longer participating in this
topic.
-B
RTWde...@earthlink.net
thought of training in any fighting system, who might get into a sticky
situation, who would have to resort to doing some kind of self defense
technique in order to facilitate their escape. Let's face
it.....whether it's in a friendly match on the floor/mat, in the
fighting ring w/ an opponent, or in the real world where bad folks
attack innocents, these are all different scenarios that dictate very
different circumstances. If anyone outside of the last scenario tried
eye gouging me, they'd end up in a world of hurt because that AIN'T
acceptable in sparring or on the tournament scene.
I will NOT use my delivery system of performing an eye gouge unless my
life depended on it. And if I had to do such a thing or anyone I train
had to do such a thing, I advocate to get the hell away to a safe
place, make a call to local authorities to describe situation, the
assailant and to suggest the law check out the hospitals for an asshole
w/ his eye in the back of his skull.....very impt note here - for the
victim's sake, do NOT identify yourself (legal reasons).
Regarding whether this technique will work, hell that goes for all
techniques. Some work in given situations, some don't. A would-be
victim has just a second to assess situation to determine how to
extract themselves.
But you know what the REAL key is here, gents? Increasing one's self
awareness in order to minimize the chances of ever ending up in a bad
scene.
Peace thru' struggle.....RTW :-)
T
Mm, not at all; so what are you wearing?
T
> "Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote
>
>>At the very least, someone who is advocating this should be trying to
>>train
>>it, integrate it, do it with a partner similar to the size they're
>>expecting to fight, and in similar conditions.
>
>
> The part you can't fake is the surprise- and with both an attack from
> ambush, and a defense to an attack from ambush, that's a major factor.
> The other aspect is the intent of the attacker. If he wants pussy, his
> actions are going to be different from if he was bent on breaking her up, or
> taking her Championship belt, or simply submitting her for the enjoyment of
> the crowd.
This sounds like the ninja argument about how their art is effective because
they sneak up on sleeping people in the dark and slit their throats. Effective?
Yes. Skillful?
>
>>Get it? Delivery system. ;-)
>
> Uh, yeah, Badge- heard you a couple of years ago.
> Learn anything since then?
> Do you teach women at all?
>
>>If you had a cool Silat move, say breaking my hand. I'd probably dispute
>>it
>>a little, (though it may be ill-advised, because you're an animal).
>
> You're looking for a 'move', I'm talking about an integrated system of
> movement- the very 'delivery system' that you're wondering about.
>
Well, you're actually leaving everything except the eye gouge out of your
description. In your head it's probably a nice elegant sensible flow; posted
it's just an isolated trick.
>
>>However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles me
>>and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So I'm
>>not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails with
>>a
>>small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
>
> Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful rapist.
It's a consideration that does add a little frisson to guard work, to be sure.
>
>>If you said you had a move like that I'd simply want to know your delivery
>>system.
>
> And wouldn't understand the answer when you heard it- because you haven't so
> far.
> Our delivery system starts with the 'platform'- essentially the angle of
> incidence to the opponent. You can take the platform, or respond to the
> platform- either is acceptable.
> Next, you have 'posture'- the use of your personal shield, and your
> automatic body weapons.
> Then you have technical principles- what basic idea of combat are you going
> to use-
> Then application- how are you going to introduce the technical essence in
> actual physicality.
> As we mix percussion/grasping/grappling at will, there is no 'hard&fast'
> rule about how we act or respond- it will, hopefully, be appropriate to the
> stimulus.
> And that doesn't even speak to attacks- only defenses.
I'm trying to relate this to what I know, with some success, when it occurs to
me how absurdly arrogant it is to hope to grasp 4 decades of varied martial
practice with 3 years of bjj/mma practice. I'd've said unbelievably arrogant,
but y'all know me well enough for it to be plausible. ;-)
>
>>Let's agree to stick to martial solutions even if just for the sake of
>>argument.
>
> Sure- remind me of all the eye-gouges you've seen that were shaken off by
> the mma competitor who ignored it and went on to win- little accidental
> stubs don't count.
>
> Chas
It seems like an extremely effective attack, just one that's really hard to get,
you know? I could probably knock you out with one good elbow hook if you stood
still for me with your arms at your sides. Sparring? No way.
T
Easy, tiger. Here we are on RMA, gotta expect a little rough play. Anyway,
he's right; the specificity thing cuts both ways; scary, but it certainly
focuses intention during rolling, especially guard work.
Chas
>>> However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles
>>> me
>>> and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So
>>> I'm
>>> not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails
>>> with
>>> a
>>> small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
>>Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful
>>rapist.
> A comment like that is beneath you and I'm no longer participating in this
> topic.
Well!
no need to get huffy- I don't even know who Roy Harris is- and he does sound
like someone who could beat most women, and he does sound like he'd be a
successful rapist- the basic topic of the thread.
You keep operating under a series of assumptions that have been contested
time and time again.
You introduce irrelevancies like they came from the Mount with Moses. Who
cares about 'Roy Harris'- he probably doesn't have to worry about rape much
at all- whether as perpetrator or target.
I know you think you have a point in there somewhere- feel free to make it
at any time.
Chas
Fraser Johnston
"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2eOdnXS0Xph...@comcast.com...
> Well!
> no need to get huffy- I don't even know who Roy Harris is- and he does
> sound like someone who could beat most women, and he does sound like he'd
> be a successful rapist- the basic topic of the thread.
> You keep operating under a series of assumptions that have been contested
> time and time again.
> You introduce irrelevancies like they came from the Mount with Moses. Who
> cares about 'Roy Harris'- he probably doesn't have to worry about rape
> much at all- whether as perpetrator or target.
> I know you think you have a point in there somewhere- feel free to make it
> at any time.
He's one of the best BJJ teachers around. His instructionals are pure gold.
Saying that he would make a successful rapist implies the he wants to rape
women. Which I highly doubt. It's like us saying that uncle bill could be
a successful child molestor.
Fraser
T
> Damn guys! I *thought* we were talking about women, most who shun the
> thought of training in any fighting system, who might get into a sticky
> situation, who would have to resort to doing some kind of self defense
> technique in order to facilitate their escape. Let's face
> it.....whether it's in a friendly match on the floor/mat, in the
> fighting ring w/ an opponent, or in the real world where bad folks
> attack innocents, these are all different scenarios that dictate very
> different circumstances. If anyone outside of the last scenario tried
> eye gouging me, they'd end up in a world of hurt because that AIN'T
> acceptable in sparring or on the tournament scene.
Well, we were talking about female outliers. Most women won't train hard,
aren't ruthless, won't go armed... they're easy prey alone, their defenses are
social; company, charm, forethought, awareness....
>
> I will NOT use my delivery system of performing an eye gouge unless my
> life depended on it. And if I had to do such a thing or anyone I train
> had to do such a thing, I advocate to get the hell away to a safe
> place, make a call to local authorities to describe situation, the
> assailant and to suggest the law check out the hospitals for an asshole
> w/ his eye in the back of his skull...
Missing an eye, I'd've guessed.
T
> "Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote
>
>>>>However if Roy Harris said he had this cool silat move and he triangles
>>>>me
>>>>and there's my freakin' hand right there and I can't even move it. So
>>>>I'm
>>>>not doubting it at all. In fact he could pull out all my fingernails
>>>>with
>>>>a
>>>>small pair of pliers, slowly. Roy Harris has a delivery system.
>>>
>>>Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful
>>>rapist.
>>
>>A comment like that is beneath you and I'm no longer participating in this
>>topic.
>
>
> Well!
> no need to get huffy- I don't even know who Roy Harris is- and he does sound
> like someone who could beat most women, and he does sound like he'd be a
> successful rapist- the basic topic of the thread.
Actually he's a really nice guy, not rapist material at all. No emotional
talent for the work, you could say. Physically and technically, though, yeah;
he's close to the top of the tree.
> You keep operating under a series of assumptions that have been contested
> time and time again.
> You introduce irrelevancies like they came from the Mount with Moses. Who
> cares about 'Roy Harris'- he probably doesn't have to worry about rape much
> at all- whether as perpetrator or target.
> I know you think you have a point in there somewhere- feel free to make it
> at any time.
His point was that if your positional game is significantly better than the
other guy's, you can do whatever you want to him; from a triangle, say, I smile
into your eyes as I slowly dislocate your elbow and then waggle the arm around
to maximize the damage, then finish the choke so I can walk away without having
to listen to your screaming. If you try to stack I underhook your leg and roll
back and onto you, smiling down into your eyes as... et cetera.
On a lighter note, I take you down, pass your guard, get kesa gatame, and smile
at you for a couple of minutes while you exhaust yourself trying to bench and/or
buck me off. When you've gassed, I take a knee ride and smile at you until you
start turning colors, then walk away. You're unhurt (assuming the takedown
didn't ding you up, some people just don't know how to fall down) but exhausted,
I'm unhurt and exhilarated; flawless victory.
Note that even the cold evil finish I proposed only fucks up your elbow, it's
not like pugging where you might accidentally kill the guy. I like the
nonlethality of bjj; it's easy enough to kill if you wish to - just hold the
choke, or choke him unconscious and then stomp on his head and neck for a minute
- but it's very difficult to accidentally kill if you avoid a few neck cranks
and take care when applying chokes.
Your proposition that such positional dominance is possible in freefighting
seems wildly unlikely to me; I've almost* never seen anyone that good, and world
championship boxing is available on cable, you know? Positional dominance is
possible in clinch, to be sure, but not the huge dominance that's available
rolling; ippon throws being an argument to the contrary, I suppose, but pulling
guard is too easy for clinch to scare a roller comfortable in guard work.
T
*Willie Pep, early Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Pernell Whittaker.
Rabid Weasel
> Well, we were talking about female outliers. Most women won't train hard,
> aren't ruthless, won't go armed... they're easy prey alone, their defenses are
> social; company, charm, forethought, awareness....
If women *really* want to inflict pain they'll offer to date him
afterward. "Let's talk... Take me out... I want to feel close... Let me
tell you what Cloe said to me yesterday... Does this dress make me look
fat?..."
Sure to send the strongest man screaming...
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Badger North
"FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE ANGRY ABOUT!"
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
WWFSMD? - www.venganza.org
Jeremy Graham
> I will NOT use my delivery system of performing an eye gouge unless my
> life depended on it
I hope I understand Badger correctly here... 'Delivery system' doesn't
refer to the specific technique itself, it's refers to the whole process
of creating the opportunity to use it.
In this case, what's at issue is how you train to set the technique up.
But it's not as simple as "he does this then I do this", it involves the
whole process of mindset, physicality, taking control of the opponent,
etc., etc. To paraphrase, I think the criticism of how many MA's train
these kind of techniques is that they don't take the entire chain into
account. And even worse, because they don't (and can't, safely) train
the technique with any kind of resistance it's impossible to see whether
there is a missing link anywhere in the chain.
So where a high-level BJJer has an advantage is that s/he can train up
to the point of taking complete control of the attacker. Once you have
the opponent so thoroughly under control that you can pick the
submission that you're going to use - then an eye attack becomes just
one of a number of possible options.
So the thing about the delivery system is that if you don't have a
viable one, then applying the technique becomes a matter of opportunity.
You have to wait for the opening to create itself. And then you have to
hope that you can recognize the opportunity if it comes at all.
I hope that makes some sense. Maybe someone a little more articulate can
have a go.
JG
T
Nothing. ;-)
I shouldn't have to tell you. >-)
Badger North
>> "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE ANGRY ABOUT!"
>
>Nothing. ;-)
>
>I shouldn't have to tell you. >-)
Tomorrow's newspaper article will blame the deaths on my martial arts
training, I'm sure.
Rabid Weasel
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:01:46 GMT, T <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote:
>
>>> "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE ANGRY ABOUT!"
>>
>>Nothing. ;-)
>>
>>I shouldn't have to tell you. >-)
>
> Tomorrow's newspaper article will blame the deaths on my martial arts
> training, I'm sure.
Not if you use a gun.
Badger_South
wrote:
Excellently put. In addition, as T points out, many people would rather
uses non-lethal methods. What's clever about her reply is that the
non-lethal methods outlined are extremely effective in stopping the fight.
Many women (and men) are loathe to use a full-on blinding 'eye gouge', or a
groin grab when it comes right down to it. Though as we've seen in the UFC,
some fighters become good at doing an eye attack while making it seem
accidental. (which it may very well have been).
[To segue for a moment, some may note that the UFC now warns fighters who
are using an open-handed pawing to the face. Though this is effective if
both fighters have similar grappling skills, for a non-grappler to use, or
base their system on the use of this against a skilled grappler could be a
mistake. If a UFC fighter uses this tactic in stand up, converting an
openhanded 'push' to the face to an eye swipe, they may end up getting a
reputation which could ultimately harm their careers. There's no ruling
that a fighter can not punch to a cut eye, however. Even some seasoned
fighters will stop if they find their face bloodied.]
So for a woman to be training a group of females in 'rape prevention' or
'extreme moves', to select things that many people just would not do is
problematic. Though they might get into the 'spirit' of things in class,
when it came right down to it would they balk at using a blinding
technique, on instinct, let alone on moral and legal grounds.
There are many problems with an eye attack, including range, opportunity,
setups, positional control, difficulty in training the move, and moral
objections. As the OP noted, it's good to even get some women (and some
men) to stand up and defend themselves. To offer them a move that is
fraught with these difficulties seems specious.
What can women do? Obviously, the run-fu, gun-fu method is good. BJJ, while
a good third option is a difficult sell to some women who resist training
in the very position they'll have to defend. The way around this is to have
more and more female bjj clubs doing full-gi grappling to get past this
block, and we already see in children's grappling that boys and girls roll
together without problems.
I've proposed NABS, a or non-attribute based fighting system for females.
So that would be BJJ, Judo, or CM boxing. Attributes are still important,
but high success can be had with relatively low, or moderate attributes.
-B
>
>JG
Badger_South
wrote:
>>>Yeah- probably could beat any woman around and be a very successful
>>>rapist.
>> A comment like that is beneath you and I'm no longer participating in this
>> topic.
>
>Well!
>no need to get huffy-
Lessons learned: don't post with low blood sugar. Apologies. No harm, no
foul.
-B
Badger North
It'll be a gun all right... a glue gun. I'm guaranteed to make the
6:00 news.
Jeremy Graham
Nah. Violent video games for sure.
JG
T
> What can women do? Obviously, the run-fu, gun-fu method is good. BJJ, while
> a good third option is a difficult sell to some women who resist training
> in the very position they'll have to defend. The way around this is to have
> more and more female bjj clubs doing full-gi grappling to get past this
> block, and we already see in children's grappling that boys and girls roll
> together without problems.
Any bjj club can offer a women's class.
Badger_South
Check. But I'm thinking from the standpoint of a 'hard gainer'. Will women
walk into a male BJJ club and ask? I doubt there will ever be 'all women'
bjj clubs, just thinking 'além da caixa'.
But no worries - from watching the comps there are lots of girls and boys
doing gi and no gi. Next generation will laugh at the MA of the 20th
century. ;-)
-B
Chas
>> The part you can't fake is the surprise- and with both an attack from
>> ambush, and a defense to an attack from ambush, that's a major factor.
>> The other aspect is the intent of the attacker. If he wants pussy, his
>> actions are going to be different from if he was bent on breaking her up,
>> or taking her Championship belt, or simply submitting her for the
>> enjoyment of the crowd.
> This sounds like
No it doesn't.
And if you think the element of surprise is insignificant- particularly
between very mistmatched opponents- you're not paying attention.
Two of the main differences between formal fighting and actual combat are
'mismatching' and 'timing'.
>......the ninja argument about how their art is effective because they
>sneak up on sleeping people in the dark and slit their throats.
That isn't what they say at all-
What they say is that 'ninja' were trained from childhood; very fit, very
skilled in a multiplicity of weapons and skills, and one of the higher
expressions would be to steal in to a fortified position and kill a guarded
man and not even wake him up.
> Well, you're actually leaving everything except the eye gouge out of your
> description. In your head it's probably a nice elegant sensible flow;
> posted it's just an isolated trick.
It *is* 'just an isolated trick'.
With most attacks on women, you don't have to presuppose footwork, feints,
timing- the attack is sudden and moves to contact range instantly. The first
opportunity for her to respond is already in the clinch.
The first thing I teach is a 'thorny' posture- setting the body so that he
can't get closer, and wants to get away. Out of that posture, there are
several sorts of attacks; I teach attacks to vulnerable targets; eyes,
throat, clavicle, xyphoid process, navel, thigh crease, skin attacks, and so
on.
The immediate attacks open the opponent for counters- I like chokes,
strangles, small bone breakers that compel locks to major limbs-
There isn't a 'set-routine', but whatever happens has a systematized set of
principles from which to draw applications. Everything combines seamlessly
with everything else- it's inherent in the teaching process.
> I'm trying to relate this to what I know, with some success, when it
> occurs to me how absurdly arrogant it is to hope to grasp 4 decades of
> varied martial practice with 3 years of bjj/mma practice. I'd've said
> unbelievably arrogant, but y'all know me well enough for it to be
> plausible. ;-)
five decades, but who's counting? <g>
I *started* in jujutsu- in 1953; in Okinawa, as part of the program for
military dependants in the army of occupation, after WWarII.
I pugged professionally, and was teaching in my own school when I met the de
Thouars' Brothers and was introduced to kuntaosilat.
I'm considered *far more* of a grappler than a slugger. I was uncommonly
strong, with a very powerful grip and slow hands- I hit only to get my hands
close enough to grab- If I don't have to hit, I like that even better-
easier on the hands, and I actually make my living as an artist.
>> Sure- remind me of all the eye-gouges you've seen that were shaken off by
>> the mma competitor who ignored it and went on to win- little accidental
>> stubs don't count.
> It seems like an extremely effective attack, just one that's really hard
> to get, you know?
There're a half-dozen ways to come at it- including a general face grab that
will hit one or more orifices anyway you come at it. It's actually a spinal
attack, the eye-gouges are incidental.
> I could probably knock you out with one good elbow hook if you stood still
> for me with your arms at your sides. Sparring? No way.
I would use some elbow things to open up the clinch far enough to winkle my
hand up the body and into the throat/face- that movement continues to open
space between you, and has lots of variations available.
And, yes'm- elbows are a specialty of ours. The word 'djurus' doesn't mean
'short hand exercise', it means 'short elbow exercise'. A lot of the focus
that looks like it's in the hand is actually in the forearm/elbow, and the
hand trails to use as a grasping/grappling tool rather than percussions.
Chas
Chas
> Saying that he would make a successful rapist implies the he wants to rape
> women.
Nope; only speaks to his capacity, should he choose to- the question being
about women's self defense in the first place, and speaking somewhat to the
probability of being assaulted by a bjj black belt.
> Which I highly doubt. It's like us saying that uncle bill could be a
> successful child molestor.
He would-
hell, fraser; he could turn *you* into a sissy if the whimsy swept him.
Chas
Badger_South
wrote:
Yes, but would he still respect himself in the morning?
Badger_South
wrote:
>"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote
PS - Ask him if he'd fight Helio. Guy's 92. If he says yes, we'll try and
set it up through the network. Could be interesting.
-B
Fraser Johnston
> Nope; only speaks to his capacity, should he choose to- the question being
> about women's self defense in the first place, and speaking somewhat to
> the probability of being assaulted by a bjj black belt.
I think an implication was there. We'll agree to disagree on that one.
>> Which I highly doubt. It's like us saying that uncle bill could be a
>> successful child molestor.
>
> He would-
> hell, fraser; he could turn *you* into a sissy if the whimsy swept him.
I hope that particular situation never comes up. : )
Fraser
Fraser Johnston
"Badger_South" <Bad...@South.net> wrote in message
news:dqlsg19fpkca5eq3j...@4ax.com...
Now that's a PPV that I'd buy.
Fraser
Chas
> His point was that if your positional game is significantly better than
> the other guy's, you can do whatever you want to him;
If you grow pigs with wings, you can fly them to market.
What a wonderful day that will be.
> from a triangle, say, I smile into your eyes as I slowly dislocate your
> elbow and then waggle the arm around to maximize the damage, then finish
> the choke so I can walk away without having to listen to your screaming.
> If you try to stack I underhook your leg and roll back and onto you,
> smiling down into your eyes as... et cetera.
Good silat.
> On a lighter note, I take you down,
Which means you won the fist fight, yes?
>......pass your guard, get kesa gatame, and smile at you for a couple of
>minutes while you exhaust yourself trying to bench and/or buck me off.
Or amuse myself by trying to tear pieces of your flesh off-
If I've already lost two fights with you, the fist fight and the positional
dominance fight, it's time I start using something startling.
> When you've gassed, I take a knee ride and smile at you until you start
> turning colors, then walk away. You're unhurt (assuming the takedown
> didn't ding you up, some people just don't know how to fall down) but
> exhausted, I'm unhurt and exhilarated; flawless victory.
Yeah- and too scared to come to your face again.
Next time, it'll be with a bat.
> Note that even the cold evil finish I proposed only fucks up your elbow,
> it's not like pugging where you might accidentally kill the guy.
You don't kill them by striking- it's the chokes and spine breaks, breath
attacks.
> - but it's very difficult to accidentally kill if you avoid a few neck
> cranks and take care when applying chokes.
Yeah; I understand that.
I was teaching a little fat girl- absolutely darlin'. She went to a
political demonstration, and the cops set the dogs on them. She rasseled one
to the ground and bit his nose off- ruined the dog forever, had to go to
Court for fucking up a 'police officer'- lucky they didn't beat her to
death.
She knew how to take 'positional advantage', had a 'delivery system',
implemented it instantly- and prevailed. The dog will never work again.
> Your proposition that such positional dominance is possible in
> freefighting seems wildly unlikely to me; I've almost* never seen anyone
> that good, and world championship boxing is available on cable, you know?
The dog wasn't prepared for her- he had never dealt with anyone who stepped
outside his 'rules'.
Think of how 'Willie Pep, early Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Pernell Whittaker'
would have had to react to a shoot- or even 'leg-kicks'- or an rnc.
> Positional dominance is possible in clinch, to be sure, but not the huge
> dominance that's available rolling; ippon throws being an argument to the
> contrary, I suppose, but pulling guard is too easy for clinch to scare a
> roller comfortable in guard work.
Not if he's getting elbow strikes- seen them finish a couple of fights now.
Not if he's getting eye-gouged- that seems to end fights as well. Not if
he's getting head-butted; they don't like them either. They don't like
bites, they don't like fish-hooking, or groin strikes. You can't kick to the
head when they're down- and going down is what they specialize in.
Now- you figure that the basic 90% of bjj/mma is part of every 'complete'
curriculum. Given that any two 'matched' opponents will have basic
striking/grasping/grappling- and hopefully the basic
counters/releases/reversals, what ability is going to count most towards a
win?
Technique.
The more techniques you have internalized, the better you fight-
The more surprising they are, the better.
--
Chas
http://warriorschest.com/pals.htm
http://www.kuntaosilat.com
http://heartlessmonkeyknife.com/DVDs.htm
T
> "T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote
>
>>His point was that if your positional game is significantly better than
>>the other guy's, you can do whatever you want to him;
>
>
> If you grow pigs with wings, you can fly them to market.
> What a wonderful day that will be.
Winged pigs are hard to come by. Guys with crappy positional games are all
around me.
>
>>from a triangle, say, I smile into your eyes as I slowly dislocate your
>>elbow and then waggle the arm around to maximize the damage, then finish
>>the choke so I can walk away without having to listen to your screaming.
>>If you try to stack I underhook your leg and roll back and onto you,
>>smiling down into your eyes as... et cetera.
>
> Good silat.
>
>>On a lighter note, I take you down,
>
> Which means you won the fist fight, yes?
Decent double leg skips the fist fight, here's how:
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/fbclinch.html
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/fbshoot.html
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/fbcombo.html
>>......pass your guard, get kesa gatame, and smile at you for a couple of
>>minutes while you exhaust yourself trying to bench and/or buck me off.
>
> Or amuse myself by trying to tear pieces of your flesh off-
> If I've already lost two fights with you, the fist fight and the positional
> dominance fight, it's time I start using something startling.
My legs are controlling your right arm, I have both hands free to deal with your
left hand, tickle you, delicately caress your eyelids....
>
>>When you've gassed, I take a knee ride and smile at you until you start
>>turning colors, then walk away. You're unhurt (assuming the takedown
>>didn't ding you up, some people just don't know how to fall down) but
>>exhausted, I'm unhurt and exhilarated; flawless victory.
>
> Yeah- and too scared to come to your face again.
> Next time, it'll be with a bat.
I have bad news for you on the weapons front....
>>Note that even the cold evil finish I proposed only fucks up your elbow,
>>it's not like pugging where you might accidentally kill the guy.
>
> You don't kill them by striking- it's the chokes and spine breaks, breath
> attacks.
>>- but it's very difficult to accidentally kill if you avoid a few neck
>>cranks and take care when applying chokes.
>
> Yeah; I understand that.
> I was teaching a little fat girl- absolutely darlin'. She went to a
> political demonstration, and the cops set the dogs on them. She rasseled one
> to the ground and bit his nose off- ruined the dog forever, had to go to
> Court for fucking up a 'police officer'- lucky they didn't beat her to
> death.
> She knew how to take 'positional advantage', had a 'delivery system',
> implemented it instantly- and prevailed. The dog will never work again.
Scary. Worked a lot better than freefighting would've.
>
>>Your proposition that such positional dominance is possible in
>>freefighting seems wildly unlikely to me; I've almost* never seen anyone
>>that good, and world championship boxing is available on cable, you know?
>
> The dog wasn't prepared for her- he had never dealt with anyone who stepped
> outside his 'rules'.
"rasseled one to the ground..." is key, I think.
> Think of how 'Willie Pep, early Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Pernell Whittaker'
> would have had to react to a shoot- or even 'leg-kicks'- or an rnc.
Probably beat me to death on my way in. Doesn't work on everybody.
>
>>Positional dominance is possible in clinch, to be sure, but not the huge
>>dominance that's available rolling; ippon throws being an argument to the
>>contrary, I suppose, but pulling guard is too easy for clinch to scare a
>>roller comfortable in guard work.
>
> Not if he's getting elbow strikes- seen them finish a couple of fights now.
> Not if he's getting eye-gouged- that seems to end fights as well.
Come to think of it... as you've said, mma guys have lost fights because of eye
gouges... but I can't remember a guy with positional dominance getting eye
gouged. Just happens in freefighting.
> Not if
> he's getting head-butted; they don't like them either. They don't like
> bites, they don't like fish-hooking, or groin strikes. You can't kick to the
> head when they're down- and going down is what they specialize in.
None of those techniques will work on me if I have mount, or side mount, or rear
mount. Oh, I might humor you and bite off your finger, let the fishhook go that
far, but I can control that arm.
> Now- you figure that the basic 90% of bjj/mma is part of every 'complete'
> curriculum.
Basic 20%, maybe. Even close relatives like judo tend to do shared techniques
like triangles and omoplatas much worse than bjj guys do. And nobody else has
guard work like this, really.
> Given that any two 'matched' opponents will have basic
> striking/grasping/grappling- and hopefully the basic
> counters/releases/reversals, what ability is going to count most towards a
> win?
> Technique.
> The more techniques you have internalized, the better you fight-
> The more surprising they are, the better.
Relevant technique, anyway; if I have a good double leg I can render worthless
everything you know about freefighting and clinch in a second.
And important technique; passing guard is important. Positional dominance and
positional stability are important.
T
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/fbcombo.html
He throws a right cross (or haymaker, whatever): Shuffle in as you bob 45
degrees toward his left shoulder. Once your head crosses the line along which
his two feet lie, he can't land the right hand.
Keep good boxing composure throughout this phase - lead shoulder slightly
shrugged, chin tucked, hands up, knees bent, look at your opponent through your
eyebrows....
While closing the distance, your left hand extends toward his right shoulder to
make sure his punch is deflected, then your left hand grabs his neck. Your right
hand parries his left hand down and to out. This will open up that arm for what
follows, and tie it up against a possible follow-up should he back up, withdraw
his right shoulder, and try to throw a hook or push you off.
Then underhook that arm. Reach under the arm and through, place your right palm
on the top of his left shoulder, and pull him to you as you wing your elbow
upward and outward. When you have your hand on that shoulder and his elbow
winged away from his body, you have complete control of that side of him. As a
reminder, your head is to the left of his.
(At the same time, remember that you have his neck with your left hand. This
will also work if your left hand has wrist control, and overhook, a bicep tie,
or elbow tie on his right side.)
Now, you're going to wing your right elbow up and slide your right shoulder in
under his left armpit as you lower your level, and step halfway around to his
back on that side. You are now standing beside/behind him facing in at his left
side, with his left foot between both of your feet. Your hips are lower than
his, and your knees are bent.
If you haven't already, then go ahead and grab his right wrist with your left
hand. This will prevent him from punching you with that hand if he tries to
headlock you.
Reach around his back with your right hand and grab his pants at his waist on
his right back side. Grabbing the right hip itself will also suffice.
At this point, your head is pressed against the left side of his chest and the
front of his left shoulder. Move your hips further around toward his back. Due
to the position you're in, he can't stop you from doing this. Keep your head
upright if possible. If he tries to grab you, it will be at your left shoulder,
arm, or your neck. No problem. If he gets you in a headlock from here, it is
just going to be that much easier to take him down and then control him.
Defensively grabbing the head or neck in situations like this is a common
mistake that non-grapplers tend to make.
At this point, you are standing to his left back side, your feet are shoulder
width apart with his left foot in between your feet. Knees are bent, and your
hips are lower than his. Your right shoulder is in under his left armpit, you
are holding his right wrist with your left hand, and your body is facing his
(i.e. he is in front of you, but you are off to his left side/back).
As a reaction, it is very common for the person to at this point grab your neck
in a headlock with his left arm. As stated earlier, he cannot hit you if you are
holding his right wrist with your left hand. If he tries to hip throw you, reap,
or trip you, he will fail if you keep your hips low, lean your weight somewhat
backward, keep a good shoulder-width stance, and keep your right hand's hold on
his pants at the waist or on his hip. If he does manage to hip throw or reap you
when you have this right hand grip on the pants or hip, he is still going to end
up on the bottom as you pull him right over with that grip. This is very easy to
do, although it would require that he could throw you in the first place --
highly unlikely.
Now, put the inner arch of your right foot against the back of his right heel.
Step your left foot beside and slightly in front of his left foot. Your butt is
now hanging over empty space. Sit down and back onto your right buttock and turn
onto your right side as you bring him down beside you. Your foot position
prevents his right foot from stepping back and preventing the fall. He will fall
onto his back and end up facing away from you on the ground. The momentum of the
takedown will bring you over on top of him.
Immediately step your left leg over him and place your foot on the ground in
front of his upper stomach. Bring your right knee up behind his upper back or
neck. You are now in a tripod base, right leg kneeling behind him and left leg
posted in front of him. This is a posted mount position.
He still has your head, but this is not a concern. The more he insists on
holding on to your head, the less control he has of the situation. Place your
hands on the ground -- left hand about a foot to a foot and a half away from the
front of his chest, right hand on the ground behind his back. Your arms will
function like outriggers to stabilize your position and prevent him from trying
to drag you over him by your head and neck as he tries to reverse you and end up
in a scarf hold.
Now, you are ready to free your head. Put your right forearm across his neck
under his jaw -- specifically, the sharp edge of the ulna (bone of your outer
forearm) against his neck. Use your left hand to grab your right wrist as you
grind the ulna into his neck. He will let go. If he pulls harder on your neck,
he will be increasing the pressure on his own neck. All the while, you are
maintaining your tripod base in a posted mount position. Keep grinding until he
releases. This is an excruciating position for him, and he will let go of your
neck directly.
Once he releases his grip, you have a number of options:
1. Wrap his left arm around his neck, reach around under and behind his neck and
grab that wrist, and hold him there as you punch with your left. Even if he
raises his right hand to ward it off, it will not help him at all. You will be
punching his own hand into his face -- actually easier on your own fist if he
does this.
2. Turn him face down to his right and back mount. This is accomplished by
pulling the wrapped wrist around his neck with your right grip on it as you push
down on that elbow with your left palm. Continue from the back mount with
elbows, naked choke, etc.
3. If he turns toward you, pull up on his right elbow and set your left knee
down. This prevents him from starting an elbow escape, and secures your
position. You are now mounted, and can continue to strike from there, or move to
other submissions or positions.
4. Once he has released your neck while you have the posted mount, you can pinch
that left arm with your right shoulder shrug, hook the arm at his inner elbow
with your inner elbow (grabbing your right lapel with your left hand, or just
laying that palm on your right shoulder), push down on his face with your right
hand as you step your right leg over in front of his face and go to the cross
armlock. The cross armlock itself is not the best hold or position to end a
fight, but it can be a very good way of setting up a triangle choke follow-up
with him lying on his side (where he can't get up to his knees and just lies
there and goes to sleep), scooting the hips to back mount him (especially if he
was resistant to the back mount from wrapping the arm), etc.
5. Reach around the back of his neck with your right hand, grab the left collar
of his shirt or jacket, and pull it tight around the neck as your left arm goes
to a single wing choke position. You can also choke him without the winging left
arm by just pulling the collar or lapel. From here, if he turns under you can go
to a clock choke and he goes to sleep while face down on all fours.
Badger_South
>>>His point was that if your positional game is significantly better than
>>>the other guy's, you can do whatever you want to him;
>>
>>
>> If you grow pigs with wings, you can fly them to market.
>> What a wonderful day that will be.
>
>Winged pigs are hard to come by. Guys with crappy positional games are all
>around me.
It seems like Chas makes some good arguments, but they're all specious.
Sure you can go collecting 'stories' where some guy has won a fight by
spitting tobacco across 10 feet into his opponent's eye, but that's rare
and can't be counted on as a fighting method.
Here's a thought. If you think you have such a good exotic game then
freakin' go test it at any BJJ school or any good wrestling club.
Tell them you're a bad mofo and you're gonna kick their ass by fishhooking
them and tearing out chunks of skin...or surprise them...your call.
Either way, you're going home in plaster casts. ;-) (I make a little joke,
because no matter what you do, most bjj guys will not make you suffer or
punish you unduly if you do a challenge match.)
Jason Deluca, quite a physical specimen, went after a teen age Royce Gracie
and Royce choked him out...AND...didn't punish him at the end. He let him
up to try again, and despite Jason trying some things that were not very
sporting, Royce didn't punish him the second time, though he did do a
couple elbow strikes to Jason's back.
Though I don't like the idea of people signing up others to fights on the
'Net (Chas), you have NO credibility until you take your exotic move on the
road - and it should have no credibility to yourself unless you test it
against a grappler, even blue and purple belts is fine with me.
I say it again. Ask Willem if he'll do a NHB fight with Helio. Though H may
ask him to drop some weight, he'll step up. Don't sign Willem up to fight a
20-something white-belt kid from Australia - it lacks class. There are
probably lots of blue belt guys in Willem's weight class in Boulder. Put an
ad in the paper - Willem challenges all BJJ blue belts or lower in his
weight class to a NHB fight. Believe me plenty will step up.
Though I respect Chas as man and relish his comments, I have to call him on
things he says that are not credible. However, note that I've -never-, even
in a joking manner suggested anything crude, such as that one's mentor is a
rapist or a molester. Let's keep it real, people.
-B
Karen Nagai
Rabid Weasel <NO__lawson__SPAM@__NOSPAM_dayton.net> wrote:
>If women *really* want to inflict pain they'll offer to date him
>afterward. "Let's talk... Take me out... I want to feel close... Let me
>tell you what Cloe said to me yesterday... Does this dress make me look
>fat?..."
>
>Sure to send the strongest man screaming...
>
I shouldn't laugh but...bwahahahahahahahaha!
I confess, I'm guilty of saying such things after my own
fashion...
"How does my swing look"
"I look like my mother, don't I?"
"Look, if you bore yourself to death, it'll be
called suicide and I won't be able to collect
a penny of insurance money."
I don't really say the last one, I just think it.
k
>Peace favor your sword (IH),
>Kirk
--
Chas
> Excellently put. In addition, as T points out, many people would rather
> uses non-lethal methods. What's clever about her reply is that the
> non-lethal methods outlined are extremely effective in stopping the fight.
If you presuppose her dominance in getting a 'takedown'; presuppose her
dominance in being able to pass guard; presuppose her dominance in getting
kesa, or triangle,......
> Many women (and men) are loathe to use a full-on blinding 'eye gouge', or
> a
> groin grab when it comes right down to it.
Yes- count me amongst them.
I won a fight with an eye-gouge once; 'Dirty Frank' Winters. Monster guy;
6'2", 280 lbs., heavy leather coat, gloves, steel toed boots, carried a
pistol and shot people pretty regularly. He was mad because I broke his
thumb the first time he fucked with me.
Even with my finger in his eye-socket, I was loathe to do it up. I left my
finger in his eye and negotiated an end to the fight.
Damn if I didn't have to do him again a few months later- three times he
tried me out just because I didn't go ahead and hurt him.
> Though as we've seen in the UFC,
> some fighters become good at doing an eye attack while making it seem
> accidental. (which it may very well have been).
Yeah- seems to give them the win too, doesn't it?
And those nice little elbows to the face that cut people up so good.
> [To segue for a moment, some may note that the UFC now warns fighters who
> are using an open-handed pawing to the face. Though this is effective if
> both fighters have similar grappling skills, for a non-grappler to use, or
> base their system on the use of this against a skilled grappler could be a
> mistake.
It's *being used* by 'skilled grapplers'.
The first Gracie used finger grabs, foot stomps, open hand pokes to the
face, nice little head-butts- good silat.
> If a UFC fighter uses this tactic in stand up, converting an
> openhanded 'push' to the face to an eye swipe, they may end up getting a
> reputation which could ultimately harm their careers.
Exactly- so an art that practices them in addition to 'formalized' fighting
techniques is going to have to 'consider' the legality of techniques that
have been internalized for combat.
That's the main quibble with traditional silat players- that the art will be
mitigated/diluted by an emphasis on 'rules' fighting. It's been the
controversy between 'ola raga' (looks like TKD/kickboxing/rasslin') and the
old-time combative systems.
> There's no ruling
> that a fighter can not punch to a cut eye, however. Even some seasoned
> fighters will stop if they find their face bloodied.]
Yes- a common agreement that allows you to trust one another in sport.
> So for a woman to be training a group of females in 'rape prevention' or
> 'extreme moves', to select things that many people just would not do is
> problematic. Though they might get into the 'spirit' of things in class,
> when it came right down to it would they balk at using a blinding
> technique, on instinct, let alone on moral and legal grounds.
That's one reason why women shouldn't teach martial art.
Chas
> Decent double leg skips the fist fight, here's how:
Chances are that you have to eat an exchange of ranging blows to get to your
take-down, and that presupposes you've got enough strength and 'kinetic'
energy to do it at all.
Or are you presupposing an 'equal match' with your attacker?
>> Or amuse myself by trying to tear pieces of your flesh off-
>> If I've already lost two fights with you, the fist fight and the
>> positional dominance fight, it's time I start using something startling.
> My legs are controlling your right arm,
So you're presupposing that you've gone from 'no fist fight' to a submission
with no intervening fight?
How charitable.
> I have both hands free to deal with your left hand, tickle you, delicately
> caress your eyelids....
Now I'm glad I didn't get to hit you or anything-
>> Next time, it'll be with a bat.
> I have bad news for you on the weapons front....
You bought a pistol with a rear-view mirror?
oh no.
>> She knew how to take 'positional advantage', had a 'delivery system',
>> implemented it instantly- and prevailed. The dog will never work again.
> Scary. Worked a lot better than freefighting would've.
She's a handful- stabs people and stuff; big, red-headed; beautiful woman.
She's a Wiccan pagan- does the RenFaire circuit; lives in costume. She
joined the Tribe- I guess they're big on the SCA kinda thing.
>> The dog wasn't prepared for her- he had never dealt with anyone who
>> stepped outside his 'rules'.
> "rasseled one to the ground..." is key, I think.
Sure- why do you think we practice all those take-downs?
When they hit the ground, what do you think they do; melt?
We have lots of grappling/groundfighting- although not of the same sort as
jujutsu oftimes.
>> Think of how 'Willie Pep, early Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Pernell Whittaker'
>> would have had to react to a shoot- or even 'leg-kicks'- or an rnc.
> Probably beat me to death on my way in. Doesn't work on everybody.
Look at the strikers in the bouts; they've opened up the boxing range to
accommodate kicking, and they don't go in without considering the shoot.
What do you think happens to a boxer, constrained by his rules soas to judge
the 'art' in a more objective manner, when confronted by a ufc-kinda guy?
What if the ufc-kinda guy is a headhunter-cannibal bandit who plans on using
you for trail food for the next three days?
There are levels of 'hazard' for which some arts/systems have to
accommodate.
> Come to think of it... as you've said, mma guys have lost fights because
> of eye gouges... but I can't remember a guy with positional dominance
> getting eye gouged. Just happens in freefighting.
Yup-
'Positional dominance' is what you're fighting about, remember?
You've jumped all the way to having your submission posture 'set', and then
presupposing that your opponent will also try an inappropriate eye
technique.
That's a hard slate to beat, ma'am.
Let's say the fight starts with me body slamming you as I strike the center
of your chest, simultaneously reaching from the rear to come over your head,
grab your eyesockets like a bowling ball and snap your spine as I take you
rudely to the ground backwards. I land behind you, at the top of your head,
with the whole body laid out to pound on, prior to strangling you.
The whole technique hinges on using the eye-sockets to compel the
compression drop on the skull- what happens to the eyes is incidental.
The eye-sockets are like a handle on the skull- just like fish-hooking.
You're not targeting the eye, or the mouth; you're trying to move the head.
>> Not if he's getting head-butted; they don't like them either. They don't
>> like bites, they don't like fish-hooking, or groin strikes. You can't
>> kick to the head when they're down- and going down is what they
>> specialize in.
> None of those techniques will work on me if I have mount, or side mount,
> or rear mount.
Yup-
At that point, I'm probably using skin attacks, muscle-splitters and anvil
attacks. I may try to isolate some body part and give it enough pain to
attack your dominance- depends on the context.
> Oh, I might humor you and bite off your finger, let the fishhook go that
> far, but I can control that arm.
One of the keys with 'fish-hooking' is that it isn't done slowly to allow
your opponent to adjust to it- it's explosive.
>> Now- you figure that the basic 90% of bjj/mma is part of every 'complete'
>> curriculum.
> Basic 20%, maybe. Even close relatives like judo tend to do shared
> techniques like triangles and omoplatas much worse than bjj guys do. And
> nobody else has guard work like this, really.
The specialty stuff is becoming more common all the time- even mma players
from other disciplines (wrestling and such) are familiar with the Brazilian
variations.
> Relevant technique, anyway; if I have a good double leg I can render
> worthless everything you know about freefighting and clinch in a second.
Yes ma'am; if that's the range that you find out that the fight has started
at. If it starts a lot closer, and by surprise, a 'double leg' isn't the
best starting technique.
Let's say the fight starts at contact range- standing; he hits you by
surprise, and grabs you around the torso- he throws you to the ground on
your face, and sits on you from behind.
Feel free to start your counter at any time.
> And important technique; passing guard is important. Positional dominance
> and positional stability are important.
That's why people like to attack from the sneaks, ma'am. They attack with
their best technique- positional stability; and they do it to lead into a
position of dominance.
Within the context of 'women's defense', one presupposes a responsive
posture. Women generally don't attack; they *are attacked*. That's
completely different from two equally matched opponents who start by mutual
consent.
Chas
Chas
> It seems like Chas makes some good arguments, but they're all specious.
> Sure you can go collecting 'stories' where some guy has won a fight by
> spitting tobacco across 10 feet into his opponent's eye, but that's rare
> and can't be counted on as a fighting method.
Eye-gouges aren't 'rare'- they're even common in formal fights *by
accident*. Even when delivered by accident, as opposed to a finessed skill,
they tend to divert the pokee's attention sufficient to get beathefuck up
dast there be no intervention.
> Here's a thought. If you think you have such a good exotic game then
> freakin' go test it at any BJJ school or any good wrestling club.
Did you miss the part about my three guys having been doing that for a few
years? Kris Roberts has been rolling with bjj/mma guys for five or six years
now; same with Darryl Murray, and more lately, his brother Brian.
Darryl's so successful at it that he's turning professional- and my primary
concern is him hurting someone, because that's about the only part that
distinguishes us from some other systems.
> Tell them you're a bad mofo and you're gonna kick their ass by fishhooking
> them and tearing out chunks of skin...or surprise them...your call.
Actually, his forte is in the standing locks that are used to take-down; the
attacks to the foot/ankle/knee- entanglements and locks; and some of the
'tenjekan' entering techniques (because they flow into the take-downs so
fluidly).
> Though I don't like the idea of people signing up others to fights on the
> 'Net (Chas), you have NO credibility until you take your exotic move on
> the
> road - and it should have no credibility to yourself unless you test it
> against a grappler, even blue and purple belts is fine with me.
Well- you're a bit past my accepting challenges on someone else's terms. I
don't roll around and tussle for fun anymore, Badge- and the people who
continue to challenge me generally threaten death, oftimes including my
family as well.
There have been a few mma people that were exposed to good silat- those guys
out in LA that Victor was teaching spring to mind; the Tito Ortiz/Mandingo
guys (I don't remember what they call their fighting system- maybe
'pitfighting'). Of course Pat Smith- but he had other 'character' issues as
well.
> I say it again. Ask Willem if he'll do a NHB fight with Helio.
Tell Helio just to drop on by and jump on him- no need for a phone call
ahead of time either; just start the ball and the dance will proceed.
> Though H may
> ask him to drop some weight, he'll step up.
'Drop some weight'?
You get what you get when you go bothering people-
You're lucky that he doesn't generally carry a knife, so you might even get
to go home.
> Don't sign Willem up to fight a
> 20-something white-belt kid from Australia - it lacks class. There are
> probably lots of blue belt guys in Willem's weight class in Boulder. Put
> an
> ad in the paper - Willem challenges all BJJ blue belts or lower in his
> weight class to a NHB fight. Believe me plenty will step up.
He's well known- his address is no secret; neither is mine. If someone has a
question about whether silat works or not, there are people available to
answer them.
The whole question is insulting- Willem doesn't tout himself; he doesn't
brag about his skills; neither do his Brothers.
I brag about them.
me.
If somebody wants to call me on it; my address is public.
> Though I respect Chas as man and relish his comments, I have to call him
> on
> things he says that are not credible.
cite please.
There's nothing I've ever said about Willem that wasn't witnessed by people
who will step forward; nothing. Neither my comments about Bill Chang (U'Un
Surya), or Victor, or Paul-
People have known me here for a long while. More than a few have met me;
some have stayed at my house and trained with my group. They've met people
who've known me for thirty years; seen the scars, felt my hand.
Don't tell me I say things that aren't credible- I'm on the line every
fucking day, bud.
> However, note that I've -never-, even
> in a joking manner suggested anything crude, such as that one's mentor is
> a
> rapist or a molester. Let's keep it real, people.
Oh please- we're talking about 'women's self defense', and you cite some pro
athlete as a standard for performance, and my comment was that he probably
would prevail over any woman that tried to defend herself against himduh.
You're the one that projected him as having been called a rapist, much less
a 'molester'.
And admonish *us* to 'keep it real, people'??
Get a grip.
Chas
RTWde...@earthlink.net
orig. poster was querying about average women who would find themselves
in the most unfortunate situations of having to defend themselves.
The avg rapist would most likely run like hell from a woman defending
himself, go look for an easier target. An attacker w/ something on the
mind more serious than just rape is a different story.
And most women don't/won't engage in training in MAs but it helps to
know a few moves, if one chooses to fight back.
And Chas.....was that you who made comment that women *shouldn't* teach
the arts?! Are you serious?! What is up w/ that?!......RTW
Chas
> And Chas.....was that you who made comment that women *shouldn't* teach
> the arts?! Are you serious?! What is up w/ that?!......
Why?
Did your little pc meter get a buzz?
Chas
T
> "T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote
>
>>Decent double leg skips the fist fight, here's how:
>
>
> Chances are that you have to eat an exchange of ranging blows to get to your
> take-down,
Eat one or two on the way in, maybe; no 'exchange' required.
and that presupposes you've got enough strength and 'kinetic'
> energy to do it at all.
True.
> Or are you presupposing an 'equal match' with your attacker?
I'm assuming he's bigger and stronger.
>
>>>Or amuse myself by trying to tear pieces of your flesh off-
>>>If I've already lost two fights with you, the fist fight and the
>>>positional dominance fight, it's time I start using something startling.
>>
>>My legs are controlling your right arm,
>
> So you're presupposing that you've gone from 'no fist fight' to a submission
> with no intervening fight?
> How charitable.
If I get the takedown, having you try to hit me just makes passing the
guard easier. If I pass your guard you're in a terrible position to hit me.
>
>>I have both hands free to deal with your left hand, tickle you, delicately
>>caress your eyelids....
>
> Now I'm glad I didn't get to hit you or anything-
>
>>>Next time, it'll be with a bat.
>>I have bad news for you on the weapons front....
>
> You bought a pistol with a rear-view mirror?
>
Well, no. My response to being shot from ambush is to fall down and
die, actually; this stuff doesn't always work.
>
>>>She knew how to take 'positional advantage', had a 'delivery system',
>>>implemented it instantly- and prevailed. The dog will never work again.
>>
>>Scary. Worked a lot better than freefighting would've.
>
> She's a handful- stabs people and stuff; big, red-headed; beautiful woman.
> She's a Wiccan pagan- does the RenFaire circuit; lives in costume. She
> joined the Tribe- I guess they're big on the SCA kinda thing.
>
>>>The dog wasn't prepared for her- he had never dealt with anyone who
>>>stepped outside his 'rules'.
>>
>>"rasseled one to the ground..." is key, I think.
>
> Sure- why do you think we practice all those take-downs?
Because grappling is a much better equalizer for physically unequal
opponents than freefighting or clinch.
> When they hit the ground, what do you think they do; melt?
> We have lots of grappling/groundfighting- although not of the same sort as
> jujutsu oftimes.
>
>>>Think of how 'Willie Pep, early Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Pernell Whittaker'
>>>would have had to react to a shoot- or even 'leg-kicks'- or an rnc.
>>
>>Probably beat me to death on my way in. Doesn't work on everybody.
>
> Look at the strikers in the bouts; they've opened up the boxing range to
> accommodate kicking, and they don't go in without considering the shoot.
> What do you think happens to a boxer, constrained by his rules soas to judge
> the 'art' in a more objective manner, when confronted by a ufc-kinda guy?
'A boxer' generally loses quite quickly. The aforementioned guys would
probably win quite quickly. You just don't see top boxing talent in
mma; anyone who can make millions - maybe tens of millions - per fight
in his own sport isn't going to try something new and scary for, at
best, tens of thousands.
> What if the ufc-kinda guy is a headhunter-cannibal bandit who plans on using
> you for trail food for the next three days?
Then he probably shot me from ambush and I never saw him.
>>Come to think of it... as you've said, mma guys have lost fights because
>>of eye gouges... but I can't remember a guy with positional dominance
>>getting eye gouged. Just happens in freefighting.
> Yup-
> 'Positional dominance' is what you're fighting about, remember?
> You've jumped all the way to having your submission posture 'set', and then
> presupposing that your opponent will also try an inappropriate eye
> technique.
> That's a hard slate to beat, ma'am.
If I try to get the takedown we will go down; probably the best you'll
be able to do is sprawl. If you're better at takedowns than me I'll
pull guard. If you're a superheavyweight Olympic Gold Medalist you'll
probably seoinage me hard enough to incapacitate me. So it goes.
> Let's say the fight starts with me body slamming you as I strike the center
> of your chest, simultaneously reaching from the rear to come over your head,
> grab your eyesockets like a bowling ball and snap your spine as I take you
> rudely to the ground backwards. I land behind you, at the top of your head,
> with the whole body laid out to pound on, prior to strangling you.
> The whole technique hinges on using the eye-sockets to compel the
> compression drop on the skull- what happens to the eyes is incidental.
The whole technique depends on your getting to do six things in
succession before I get to move; not going to happen.
> The eye-sockets are like a handle on the skull- just like fish-hooking.
> You're not targeting the eye, or the mouth; you're trying to move the head.
>
>>>Not if he's getting head-butted; they don't like them either. They don't
>>>like bites, they don't like fish-hooking, or groin strikes. You can't
>>>kick to the head when they're down- and going down is what they
>>>specialize in.
>>
>>None of those techniques will work on me if I have mount, or side mount,
>>or rear mount.
>
> Yup-
> At that point, I'm probably using skin attacks, muscle-splitters and anvil
> attacks. I may try to isolate some body part and give it enough pain to
> attack your dominance- depends on the context.
>
Interesting; what's a muscle splitter? An anvil attack?
>
>>Oh, I might humor you and bite off your finger, let the fishhook go that
>>far, but I can control that arm.
>
> One of the keys with 'fish-hooking' is that it isn't done slowly to allow
> your opponent to adjust to it- it's explosive.
If I have mount it's not.
>
>>>Now- you figure that the basic 90% of bjj/mma is part of every 'complete'
>>>curriculum.
>>
>>Basic 20%, maybe. Even close relatives like judo tend to do shared
>>techniques like triangles and omoplatas much worse than bjj guys do. And
>>nobody else has guard work like this, really.
>
>
> The specialty stuff is becoming more common all the time- even mma players
> from other disciplines (wrestling and such) are familiar with the Brazilian
> variations.
Basics, yeah; but look at the Pan-Ams and the Mundials and the
Brasileiros; bjj is getting more sophisticated every year.
>
>
>>Relevant technique, anyway; if I have a good double leg I can render
>>worthless everything you know about freefighting and clinch in a second.
>
>
> Yes ma'am; if that's the range that you find out that the fight has started
> at. If it starts a lot closer, and by surprise, a 'double leg' isn't the
> best starting technique.
Pulling guard is even easier.
> Let's say the fight starts at contact range- standing; he hits you by
> surprise, and grabs you around the torso- he throws you to the ground on
> your face, and sits on you from behind.
> Feel free to start your counter at any time.
You mean after I let him have the first four moves for free, or after he
grabs me?
T
Maybe a little.
Certainly I wouldn't be a suitable teacher, but I hadn't generalized
about it.
RTWde...@earthlink.net
in the local WalMart. :-0
Seriously, I'm monitering this particular thread because I hold out
hope that I might learn something useful to pass on to folks I teach
self awareness/self defense to in the future.
If you truly believe women have no place teaching the arts, just
remember the nun who taught a female student and Wing Chun was born.
And I bet Wong Fei Hung's 4th wife would've begged to differ with your
opinion (and not in a grandmotherly way) were she still alive.
The fairer gender does brings something to the table - a little yin for
balance. <ok, flame away folks>
Peace.....RTW
Chas
>>>And Chas.....was that you who made comment that women *shouldn't* teach
>>>the arts?! Are you serious?! What is up w/ that?!......
>> Why?
>> Did your little pc meter get a buzz?
> Certainly I wouldn't be a suitable teacher, but I hadn't generalized about
> it.
So is your quibble a semantic one, a 'political' one, or a pragmatic
statement?
Chas
Chas
>> Chances are that you have to eat an exchange of ranging blows to get to
>> your take-down,
> Eat one or two on the way in, maybe; no 'exchange' required.
Not as much of a problem for opposing men- moreso for a woman taking hits
from a man.
> and that presupposes you've got enough strength and 'kinetic'
>> energy to do it at all.
> True.
I think it takes about 180 lbs. of mass to start to fight most anything of
human size. A good light heavy can stand up to huge men, but less mass means
less 'hit'.
>> Or are you presupposing an 'equal match' with your attacker?
> I'm assuming he's bigger and stronger.
And initiating from surprise.
> If I get the takedown, having you try to hit me just makes passing the
> guard easier. If I pass your guard you're in a terrible position to hit
> me.
If we had some ham, we could have some ham&eggs, if we had some eggs.
> The whole technique depends on your getting to do six things in succession
> before I get to move; not going to happen.
Same with your thesis-
You want to guarantee the take-down without eating two or three hits before
you can time/range it. You want to guarantee that you land in an
advantageous position, and then take a submission posture-
Actually, my technique depends only on the first body slam (called a
'pukul', and the study is called 'pukulan')- much the same as your hope for
a double-leg takedown. My goal is to 'displante'; to knock you off your
'set'- to disrupt your plan.
> Interesting; what's a muscle splitter? An anvil attack?
'muscle splitter' is an intrusion into a muscle that seeks to divide the
main mass of the muscle by attacking on it's weak line of defense- it's both
painful and incapacitating.
An 'anvil attack' is to catch something like a blood vessel/nerve line where
it crosses a bone. You seek to compress the bv/nl against the bone, like a
hammer hitting a billet on an anvil. Again, very painful and debilitating.
They're both 'passing' kinds of techniques- some quick pain and exploit the
reaction.
>> One of the keys with 'fish-hooking' is that it isn't done slowly to allow
>> your opponent to adjust to it- it's explosive.
> If I have mount it's not.
If you still *want* mount, it is-
and, I don't want to change definitions in mid-stream, but 'fish-hooking'
kinda subsumes skin attacks; ripping at loose flesh, pinch and tear- that
sort of thing.
And they have to be done quickly, because they're only for that instant pain
that makes him change position- you have to be able to exploit the moment.
> Basics, yeah; but look at the Pan-Ams and the Mundials and the
> Brasileiros; bjj is getting more sophisticated every year.
And so are the other disciplines that are dealing with them- that's why it's
called fighting instead of brazilian asswhipping.
>> Yes ma'am; if that's the range that you find out that the fight has
>> started at. If it starts a lot closer, and by surprise, a 'double leg'
>> isn't the best starting technique.
> Pulling guard is even easier.
No one's ever actually hit you, have they?
You think people just shake it off- like you see the athletes do in the
extravaganzas.
The reality is that if someone can 'sunday punch' you- hit you with their
best shot, first- it'll shortstop you long enough to get hit again. Now,
you've been hit twice-
At the level of disparity between 'men', you can maybe weather the storm and
get to work. At the level of physical disparity between most men and most
women, you won't get through getting hit with enough composure to respond
effectively.
>> Let's say the fight starts at contact range- standing; he hits you by
>> surprise, and grabs you around the torso- he throws you to the ground on
>> your face, and sits on you from behind.
>> Feel free to start your counter at any time.
> You mean after I let him have the first four moves for free, or after he
> grabs me?
The only 'freebie' is the first sunday-punch (initiating the assault at a
time of his own choosing, with a technique with which he's confident)
You're depending on making the take-down; so is he. You want to pull
guard/take mount- he wants you thinking about how your mouth hurts whilst he
muscles in a lock/choke/compression.
You're still hoping he has *no* skills when in contact. The reality is that
he wouldn't be attacking a woman without figuring on 'going to the ground'.
I really have to say that this is all very theoretical for me. I've never
hit a woman in my life; never did much but neutralize them coming at me-
never hurt one, ever. I come from a sub-culture that considers it on par
with bothering children, cripples or old people.
I've taught a lot of women- hundreds; explored the basic scenarios, taught
counters to previously successful techniques, counseled victims of assault
as to the mind-set necessary to respond successfully, and have some stories
of women that have prevailed by one means or another.
Chas
Chas
> If you truly believe women have no place teaching the arts, just
> remember the nun who taught a female student and Wing Chun was born.
cool.
no doubt the art is still dominated by women; serves as a sovereign system
of self-defense for them, and has a long history of notable practitioners?
> And I bet Wong Fei Hung's 4th wife would've begged to differ with your
> opinion (and not in a grandmotherly way) were she still alive.
ok.
I'll stipulate her-
Now, about the other billions; .......
> The fairer gender does brings something to the table - a little yin for
> balance.
you misspelled 'yen'.
Chas
Badger_South
wrote:
>"T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote
>>> Chances are that you have to eat an exchange of ranging blows to get to
>>> your take-down,
>> Eat one or two on the way in, maybe; no 'exchange' required.
>
>Not as much of a problem for opposing men- moreso for a woman taking hits
>from a man.
Let me reverse this and ask -you-. You're given a cadre of females amateur
boxers, including Laila Ali Muhammad. Half of them are given Silat training
in this body clashing, half are taught Takedown skills and passing guard.
Which group is going to be able to do a takedown on a male bigger then them
who is intent on hitting them. Any of them? None of them?
>> and that presupposes you've got enough strength and 'kinetic'
>>> energy to do it at all.
>> True.
>
>I think it takes about 180 lbs. of mass to start to fight most anything of
>human size. A good light heavy can stand up to huge men, but less mass means
>less 'hit'.
So with T's method she's assured of eliminating most rapists and thugs who
are under 180llbs? Let's say 'under 150lbs'. This is good, no? Possible,
no?
>>> Or are you presupposing an 'equal match' with your attacker?
>> I'm assuming he's bigger and stronger.
>
>And initiating from surprise.
Take any 10 Silat third year students. Have them attacked by this imaginary
180lb attacker. Will any of them survive? If so, what are you doing that
makes this possible?
>> If I get the takedown, having you try to hit me just makes passing the
>> guard easier. If I pass your guard you're in a terrible position to hit
>> me.
>
>If we had some ham, we could have some ham&eggs, if we had some eggs.
We're comparing possible scenarios. Take any first year Silat student. Have
them get a takedown. Will they be able to reliably be able to do anything
next? Are they training MMA-style with gloves and head gear to
functionalize the 'after-Takedown' scenario? If so, good. If they're doing
what Steve shows on the HMK DVDs - i.e. 'lots of air punches' (good, fast
skilled air punches, but still...)
>> The whole technique depends on your getting to do six things in succession
>> before I get to move; not going to happen.
>
>Same with your thesis-
>You want to guarantee the take-down without eating two or three hits before
>you can time/range it. You want to guarantee that you land in an
>advantageous position, and then take a submission posture-
>Actually, my technique depends only on the first body slam (called a
>'pukul', and the study is called 'pukulan')- much the same as your hope for
>a double-leg takedown. My goal is to 'displante'; to knock you off your
>'set'- to disrupt your plan.
And a good takedown artist would take how long to learn this 'pukulan'? How
long would it take a good pukulan student to learn takedowns? Would that be
a good or a bad thing?
>> Interesting; what's a muscle splitter? An anvil attack?
>
>'muscle splitter' is an intrusion into a muscle that seeks to divide the
>main mass of the muscle by attacking on it's weak line of defense- it's both
>painful and incapacitating.
Have you ever gotten a 'muscle splitter' in a fight? Just asking. How would
you need to establish positional dominance to get it, or are you
postulating you'd rush in freefighting and get a muscle splitter?
>An 'anvil attack' is to catch something like a blood vessel/nerve line where
>it crosses a bone. You seek to compress the bv/nl against the bone, like a
>hammer hitting a billet on an anvil. Again, very painful and debilitating.
>They're both 'passing' kinds of techniques- some quick pain and exploit the
>reaction.
Same question(s).
>>> One of the keys with 'fish-hooking' is that it isn't done slowly to allow
>>> your opponent to adjust to it- it's explosive.
Excellent. Do you have some kind of practice dummy where you practice
'explosive fish-hikking'? If not, I'd honestly suggest you get one.
>> If I have mount it's not.
>
>If you still *want* mount, it is-
>and, I don't want to change definitions in mid-stream, but 'fish-hooking'
>kinda subsumes skin attacks; ripping at loose flesh, pinch and tear- that
>sort of thing.
How are you functionalizing your skin-ripping. I know you are, pinch
gripping, pig carcasses, etc.
>And they have to be done quickly, because they're only for that instant pain
>that makes him change position- you have to be able to exploit the moment.
>
>> Basics, yeah; but look at the Pan-Ams and the Mundials and the
>> Brasileiros; bjj is getting more sophisticated every year.
>
>And so are the other disciplines that are dealing with them- that's why it's
>called fighting instead of brazilian asswhipping.
LOL.
>>> Yes ma'am; if that's the range that you find out that the fight has
>>> started at. If it starts a lot closer, and by surprise, a 'double leg'
>>> isn't the best starting technique.
>> Pulling guard is even easier.
>
>No one's ever actually hit you, have they?
>You think people just shake it off- like you see the athletes do in the
>extravaganzas.
You can learn to take a hit. Skinny, small guys learn to take a hit. Larger
females can learn to take a hit, roll with the punch. It's difficult, but
not impossible.
>The reality is that if someone can 'sunday punch' you- hit you with their
>best shot, first- it'll shortstop you long enough to get hit again. Now,
>you've been hit twice-
>At the level of disparity between 'men', you can maybe weather the storm and
>get to work. At the level of physical disparity between most men and most
>women, you won't get through getting hit with enough composure to respond
>effectively.
Probably true, but is that a reason to give up all hope?
>>> Let's say the fight starts at contact range- standing; he hits you by
>>> surprise, and grabs you around the torso- he throws you to the ground on
>>> your face, and sits on you from behind.
>>> Feel free to start your counter at any time.
>> You mean after I let him have the first four moves for free, or after he
>> grabs me?
>
>The only 'freebie' is the first sunday-punch (initiating the assault at a
>time of his own choosing, with a technique with which he's confident)
>You're depending on making the take-down; so is he. You want to pull
>guard/take mount- he wants you thinking about how your mouth hurts whilst he
>muscles in a lock/choke/compression.
>You're still hoping he has *no* skills when in contact. The reality is that
>he wouldn't be attacking a woman without figuring on 'going to the ground'.
>
>I really have to say that this is all very theoretical for me. I've never
>hit a woman in my life; never did much but neutralize them coming at me-
>never hurt one, ever. I come from a sub-culture that considers it on par
>with bothering children, cripples or old people.
>I've taught a lot of women- hundreds; explored the basic scenarios, taught
>counters to previously successful techniques, counseled victims of assault
>as to the mind-set necessary to respond successfully, and have some stories
>of women that have prevailed by one means or another.
>
>Chas
Please note this is not a diatribe meant to attack you or question your art
or your experience. It's a two-way commentary to benefit all. Surely you've
been given one or two ideas over time by this. I know I have.
Best,
-B
unrestra...@hotmail.com
Chas, I sat next to the first woman firefighter in Riverside County,
California, on the bus. She was a big, strapping, gal. *Looked like she
could carry an average guy down a ladder. We got to talking; she said
she spent two years applying for that job. She was told "We don't hire
women."
"Why not?"
"I'm strong enough!"
"Yeah, but we don't hire women."
It took her two years before she found someone in County who was too
embarrassed by the logical absurdity to turn her away.
Look, for cops, soldiers, and firemen, you just set the necessary
standard (and it ain't sexual apparatus), then make sure the applicants
meet the standards. Tell me you're saying that you don't think most
women would meet the standards; not that you're saying they shouldn't
teach simply because they're female?
On that note, not all teachers need to be Willem de Thouars to teach.
You don't need a PhD to teach someone to read and write. Certainly, to
get to the higher levels you need a de Thouars, or someone like him.
But how many public school students go far enough to get their own PhD,
or even need one to teach them?
Sure, it's better if you do. But the crime comes in when you have some
flyweight misrepresenting himself as a high master.
Kermit
Fraser Johnston
<RTWde...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1125149069.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> If you truly believe women have no place teaching the arts, just
> remember the nun who taught a female student and Wing Chun was born.
Probably not the best example on this group. Having said that I have had
some JJJ instructors that were female and brilliant teachers. I find women
can't rely on strength and are generally better technically.
Fraser
T
> "T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote
>
>>>Chances are that you have to eat an exchange of ranging blows to get to
>>>your take-down,
>>
>>Eat one or two on the way in, maybe; no 'exchange' required.
>
>
> Not as much of a problem for opposing men- moreso for a woman taking hits
> from a man.
>
>
>>and that presupposes you've got enough strength and 'kinetic'
>>
>>>energy to do it at all.
>>
>>True.
>
>
> I think it takes about 180 lbs. of mass to start to fight most anything of
> human size. A good light heavy can stand up to huge men, but less mass means
> less 'hit'.
Leaving aside Royler for a moment; how big is Willem?
>
>
>>>Or are you presupposing an 'equal match' with your attacker?
>>
>>I'm assuming he's bigger and stronger.
>
>
> And initiating from surprise.
>
>
>>If I get the takedown, having you try to hit me just makes passing the
>>guard easier. If I pass your guard you're in a terrible position to hit
>>me.
>
>
> If we had some ham, we could have some ham&eggs, if we had some eggs.
>
>
>>The whole technique depends on your getting to do six things in succession
>>before I get to move; not going to happen.
>
>
> Same with your thesis-
> You want to guarantee the take-down without eating two or three hits before
> you can time/range it.
I just want the takedown, dude; pulling guard is easy, double legs are
less easy but still not terribly hard against nongrapplers.
> You want to guarantee that you land in an
> advantageous position,
Neutral - guard - is fine with me.
> and then take a submission posture-
> Actually, my technique depends only on the first body slam (called a
> 'pukul', and the study is called 'pukulan')- much the same as your hope for
> a double-leg takedown. My goal is to 'displante'; to knock you off your
> 'set'- to disrupt your plan.
Bigger goal than mine.
They have, to their regret. ;-)
> You think people just shake it off- like you see the athletes do in the
> extravaganzas.
No one's ever hit me hard enough with one punch to stop me. It could
happen, sure, but the ability's uncommon.
> The reality is that if someone can 'sunday punch' you- hit you with their
> best shot, first- it'll shortstop you long enough to get hit again. Now,
> you've been hit twice-
If he hits me the second time without hesitation - if he treats me like
a male attacker - sure.
> At the level of disparity between 'men', you can maybe weather the storm and
> get to work. At the level of physical disparity between most men and most
> women, you won't get through getting hit with enough composure to respond
> effectively.
Guys beat women differently than they fight each other.
>>>Let's say the fight starts at contact range- standing; he hits you by
>>>surprise, and grabs you around the torso- he throws you to the ground on
>>>your face, and sits on you from behind.
>>>Feel free to start your counter at any time.
>>
>>You mean after I let him have the first four moves for free, or after he
>>grabs me?
>
> The only 'freebie' is the first sunday-punch (initiating the assault at a
> time of his own choosing, with a technique with which he's confident)
> You're depending on making the take-down; so is he. You want to pull
> guard/take mount- he wants you thinking about how your mouth hurts whilst he
> muscles in a lock/choke/compression.
If he's never seen a triangle before he has no idea that putting one arm
between my legs and one hand outside them immediately costs him
consciousness and an elbow.
> You're still hoping he has *no* skills when in contact. The reality is that
> he wouldn't be attacking a woman without figuring on 'going to the ground'.
>
> I really have to say that this is all very theoretical for me. I've never
> hit a woman in my life; never did much but neutralize them coming at me-
> never hurt one, ever. I come from a sub-culture that considers it on par
> with bothering children, cripples or old people.
> I've taught a lot of women- hundreds; explored the basic scenarios, taught
> counters to previously successful techniques, counseled victims of assault
> as to the mind-set necessary to respond successfully, and have some stories
> of women that have prevailed by one means or another.
It's not wholly theoretical for me.
T
Wasn't my quibble.
That said, why shouldn't women teach SD?
Fraser Johnston
"T" <T...@nothingbut.net> wrote in message
news:Fh%Pe.199705$0f.1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> If he's never seen a triangle before he has no idea that putting one arm
> between my legs and one hand outside them immediately costs him
> consciousness and an elbow.
Rough date. What if he buys you dinner and a movie first? ; )
Fraser
T
He can keep the elbow. ;-)
Chas
> Let me reverse this and ask -you-. You're given a cadre of females amateur
> boxers, including Laila Ali Muhammad. Half of them are given Silat
> training
> in this body clashing, half are taught Takedown skills and passing guard.
Pukulan *is* a takedown skill and used to pass 'guard'.
> Which group is going to be able to do a takedown on a male bigger then
> them
> who is intent on hitting them. Any of them? None of them?
I've never crossed hands with a female persilat- although I've seen a number
of them do small demonstrations of the 'female' systems against strong
attacks.
All of the stuff that I've seen is predicated on a strong attack- not a
situation of 'equality'/mutually agreed upon combat.
>>I think it takes about 180 lbs. of mass to start to fight most anything of
>>human size. A good light heavy can stand up to huge men, but less mass
>>means
>>less 'hit'.
> So with T's method she's assured of eliminating most rapists and thugs who
> are under 180llbs? Let's say 'under 150lbs'. This is good, no? Possible,
> no?
No; 180 pounders do remarkably well under that weight as well as above that
weight.
'T's' weight, at 150 lbs. or so (ims), and 5'7" or so, would make her
kinetic substance less of a disadvantage. Put her at 5'2" and 115 lbs., and
she better have some hella technique to overcome just the upper body
strength disparity.
> Take any 10 Silat third year students. Have them attacked by this
> imaginary
> 180lb attacker. Will any of them survive? If so, what are you doing that
> makes this possible?
Teaching them to fight 'schmarder, not harder' (dutch-indo accent there)
> We're comparing possible scenarios. Take any first year Silat student.
> Have
> them get a takedown. Will they be able to reliably be able to do anything
> next?
Yes-
what, did you think we thought they melted or something?
> Are they training MMA-style with gloves and head gear to
> functionalize the 'after-Takedown' scenario?
Sure- in a number of differing scenarios, all of which are 'live'.
> If so, good. If they're doing
> what Steve shows on the HMK DVDs - i.e. 'lots of air punches' (good, fast
> skilled air punches, but still...)
There's about five years of instruction in each of the vids. They're not
about showing repetitive practice or contests of skill- they're designed for
a solo approach to learning, not participating in the group practice.
You'll notice that all the 'air punches', takedowns and ground applications
are done as a fluid stream of technique that shows principles of combat that
you can apply as will.
In terms of whether he can apply his material to combat, one has to step up
to find out- as he lives at about 10,000 feet, that's quite a step.
> And a good takedown artist would take how long to learn this 'pukulan'?
Moments- it's really easy and effective.
> How
> long would it take a good pukulan student to learn takedowns?
Part of the essential curriculum- and always interested in variations.
> Would that be
> a good or a bad thing?
What?
> Have you ever gotten a 'muscle splitter' in a fight?
Oh hell yes- some of my best stuff.
> Just asking. How would
> you need to establish positional dominance to get it, or are you
> postulating you'd rush in freefighting and get a muscle splitter?
The body is covered with muscles- all of which have keypoints and clusters.
Your 'positional dominance' is thus very focused- you don't have to be
'dominant' over anything but the point you're working with.
And yes; I like some muscle splitters as initiating attacks; entrances and
such.
>>They're both 'passing' kinds of techniques- some quick pain and exploit
>>the
>>reaction.
> Same question(s).
Yes; I've used anvil attacks-
as well as 'breath', blood, skin, organ and cavity attacks.
> Excellent. Do you have some kind of practice dummy where you practice
> 'explosive fish-hikking'? If not, I'd honestly suggest you get one.
Yes- although 'dummy' isn't quite precise.
> How are you functionalizing your skin-ripping. I know you are, pinch
> gripping, pig carcasses, etc.
I trained in my daily work- there are two motions I do hundreds of times a
day that train just that skill. I have both uncommon muscle development and
the appropriate calluses.
> You can learn to take a hit. Skinny, small guys learn to take a hit.
> Larger
> females can learn to take a hit, roll with the punch. It's difficult, but
> not impossible.
Who said 'impossible'- now deal with 'improbable'.
And deal with comparable upper body strength; glass jaws, lighter bone
structure and less punching power.
> Probably true, but is that a reason to give up all hope?
'reason' has nothing to do with it.
indulging your feelings about what 'ought to be' is your own business.
> Please note this is not a diatribe meant to attack you or question your
> art
> or your experience. It's a two-way commentary to benefit all. Surely
> you've
> been given one or two ideas over time by this. I know I have.
Oh sure- just a discussion, buddy-
Expressing the 'weight' of an opinion by *EMPHASIS* is just a function of
the medium; no personal offense ever meant nor taken.
Chas
Chas
> Leaving aside Royler for a moment; how big is Willem?
5'10", 190 or so. He's bigger now than at any time I remember him- he's
still very fit for any age, much less 70.
He used to go about 160, after the three concentration camps. His brother
Victor went about 240 at fighting weight; his brother Paul at 180 or so;
brother Maurice at 220.
> I just want the takedown, dude;
Well, yeah.
The fistfight is about who gets thrown rudely to the ground, neh?
> pulling guard is easy,
Depends on the context.
We practice to fall on our opponent, as contrasted with falling on the
ground. Inherent in that fall are some body position things that introduce
positional weapons (elbows mostly- headbutts, some knee things). We also
work from side mount, half mount, a top of the head position, reversed to
the legs, and a couple of seated positions.
> double legs are less easy but still not terribly hard against
> nongrapplers.
well; alrighty then.
>> You want to guarantee that you land in an advantageous position,
> Neutral - guard - is fine with me.
'guard' isn't 'neutral'- it's an 'advantageous' defensive/offensive
position.
How about 'half-guard'? or to the reversed mount? or taken down with an
arm-bar that arrives on the ground already broken?
>> Actually, my technique depends only on the first body slam (called a
>> 'pukul', and the study is called 'pukulan')- much the same as your hope
>> for a double-leg takedown. My goal is to 'displante'; to knock you off
>> your 'set'- to disrupt your plan.
> Bigger goal than mine.
greater hazard.
> No one's ever hit me hard enough with one punch to stop me. It could
> happen, sure, but the ability's uncommon.
So's your physicality.
What relative percentage would you put yourself in- contrasting with common
physicality by gender?
> Guys beat women differently than they fight each other.
Precisely-
and the mechanisms of common male 'self defense' are often really
inappropriate for the special needs of women.
I used to know this gay chick; rode a Harley, fought full contact- back in
the day when kickboxing was popular for that sort of thing. She whipped
everybody that stood up in the Women's Divisions. She pugged in the local
gay bars- about 5'9, 165 lbs. and very fit.
Then she wanted to try out weight classified men in the ring- lasted 3
seconds or so.
Until you add 'weapons' to the mix, in general, women do not fare well until
they have *slathers* of technique- and hopefully, added to the element of
the surprise that they have anything at all.
> If he's never seen a triangle before he has no idea that putting one arm
> between my legs and one hand outside them immediately costs him
> consciousness and an elbow.
Yes ma'am; add in 'cold drink of water' for a man my age, and you can add
'heart attack'.
I'm game.
> It's not wholly theoretical for me.
yes ma'am- a matter of great concern for me, and a proper topic for my
considered opinion as a longtime practitioner in that specific interest area
of 'womens' martial skills.
I have a daughter. I want her to be safe and healthy. I don't want her to
waste her time, or be impractical in her defense. I think of the horrific
pain and degradation I've seen visited on women and am embarrassed and
affronted by the perpetrators.
I wish you nothing but the best, and have none but your best interests at
heart.
And I'd appreciate it if you'd watch out for the elbow-
Chas
Chas
> That said, why shouldn't women teach SD?
They don't have the cultural matrix for understanding combat.
In the extreme, you see the disconnect in groups like the Israeli women-
even the use in WWII Soviet combat, or in the Chinese Women's army units.
None of them work out well except in very refined specialties like sniping.
As one becomes more culturally specific, 'first-world' Western women are
even further removed from it on a personal level. They assume some chivalric
vulnerability, or sanction, or privilege or exception.
You're always talking about men being insane- combat is 'surreal'; nothing
about your everyday life works out in combat. Women don't have that quality
(as an understood generality for which the exception proves it's worth).
There is a quality which most women lack called 'give your ass to Jesus and
leap joyfully into the Void'. It's what makes them stay home with the kids.
Chas
Chas
> Look, for cops, soldiers, and firemen, you just set the necessary
> standard (and it ain't sexual apparatus), then make sure the applicants
> meet the standards.
And in each of the instances you cite, they've lowered the standards based
specifically on gender.
> Tell me you're saying that you don't think most
> women would meet the standards; not that you're saying they shouldn't
> teach simply because they're female?
Actually, for me it's not even the physicality- it's the mind-set and
cultural context.
And it isn't a metaphysical certainty disproven by a single exception- there
are 3 billion of them at any given time; surely an exception somewhere.
> On that note, not all teachers need to be Willem de Thouars to teach.
> You don't need a PhD to teach someone to read and write.
Unless you're doing comparative literature in Indonesian to Chinese to
Japanese to Medieval Europe- much less as regards the 'other' gender in
those ouevre.
> .....Certainly, to
> get to the higher levels you need a de Thouars, or someone like him.
You mean where skills start to trump physicality?
yeah.
> But how many public school students go far enough to get their own PhD,
> or even need one to teach them?
or triumph in the literary arena.
> Sure, it's better if you do. But the crime comes in when you have some
> flyweight misrepresenting himself as a high master.
herself.
Chas
Chas
>> If you truly believe women have no place teaching the arts, just
>> remember the nun who taught a female student and Wing Chun was born.
> Probably not the best example on this group.
You mean the part about being exposed as a fairy tale?
yeah; shook my confidence too.
Of course, the large numbers of women, competent in WC, that prevail against
non-WC opponents, particularly men, has restored that short breach of faith.
> Having said that I have had some JJJ instructors that were female and
> brilliant teachers. I find women can't rely on strength and are generally
> better technically.
You mean 'tricks'?
Little ways to gain small advantages and exploit them into large ones?
Evasive and deceptive variations on common techniques and a specializing in
more complex and finessed applications?
good silat.
Chas
Robert Low
> There is a quality which most women lack called 'give your ass to Jesus and
> leap joyfully into the Void'.
Not to disagree with that at all, or that more women
than men lack it, but I strongly suspect
that most men lack it too.
Chas
yes-
one of the reasons that combat is best left to warriors, and instruction
best left to survivors.
Which standard seems to have a definite genetic component, historically
speaking.
Chas
T
>
> Depends on the context.
> We practice to fall on our opponent, as contrasted with falling on the
> ground. Inherent in that fall are some body position things that introduce
> positional weapons (elbows mostly- headbutts, some knee things). We also
> work from side mount, half mount, a top of the head position, reversed to
> the legs, and a couple of seated positions.
>
>>double legs are less easy but still not terribly hard against
>>nongrapplers.
>
> well; alrighty then.
>
>>>You want to guarantee that you land in an advantageous position,
>>
>>Neutral - guard - is fine with me.
>
> 'guard' isn't 'neutral'- it's an 'advantageous' defensive/offensive
> position.
Nope, top and bottom are even. Most people prefer the top game.
> How about 'half-guard'?
Slight advantage to top.
> or to the reversed mount?
Mounted person is at a horrible disadvantage; bad as being under a knee
ride, only thing worse is rear mount.
> or taken down with an
> arm-bar that arrives on the ground already broken?
Position, *then* submission. ;-)
>
>>>Actually, my technique depends only on the first body slam (called a
>>>'pukul', and the study is called 'pukulan')- much the same as your hope
>>>for a double-leg takedown. My goal is to 'displante'; to knock you off
>>>your 'set'- to disrupt your plan.
>>
>>Bigger goal than mine.
>
> greater hazard.
>
>>No one's ever hit me hard enough with one punch to stop me. It could
>>happen, sure, but the ability's uncommon.
>
> So's your physicality.
You sweet talking devil, do go on. :-)
> What relative percentage would you put yourself in- contrasting with common
> physicality by gender?
I'm wonderful. :-) I exercise with diligence and care and effort and
determination; I pursue rational goals; I overinvest in SD. Young,
strong, fit, healthy, skilled, smart, potentially ruthless, armed... top
one percent of women, top quartile of humans.
>
>>Guys beat women differently than they fight each other.
>
> Precisely-
> and the mechanisms of common male 'self defense' are often really
> inappropriate for the special needs of women.
> I used to know this gay chick; rode a Harley, fought full contact- back in
> the day when kickboxing was popular for that sort of thing. She whipped
> everybody that stood up in the Women's Divisions. She pugged in the local
> gay bars- about 5'9, 165 lbs. and very fit.
> Then she wanted to try out weight classified men in the ring- lasted 3
> seconds or so.
> Until you add 'weapons' to the mix, in general, women do not fare well until
> they have *slathers* of technique- and hopefully, added to the element of
> the surprise that they have anything at all.
I don't look like - dress like, act like - your thug chick anecdote, honest.
>
>>If he's never seen a triangle before he has no idea that putting one arm
>>between my legs and one hand outside them immediately costs him
>>consciousness and an elbow.
>
> Yes ma'am; add in 'cold drink of water' for a man my age, and you can add
> 'heart attack'.
> I'm game.
>
>>It's not wholly theoretical for me.
>
> yes ma'am- a matter of great concern for me, and a proper topic for my
> considered opinion as a longtime practitioner in that specific interest area
> of 'womens' martial skills.
> I have a daughter. I want her to be safe and healthy. I don't want her to
> waste her time, or be impractical in her defense. I think of the horrific
> pain and degradation I've seen visited on women and am embarrassed and
> affronted by the perpetrators.
Paintball gets you used to shooting people; doing it when you're
stressed from running and ducking and getting shot at, tired, hot....
Sure it's a game, fun, much less scary than the real thing; good.
> I wish you nothing but the best, and have none but your best interests at
> heart.
> And I'd appreciate it if you'd watch out for the elbow-
>
> Chas
Thanks, Chas.
unrestra...@hotmail.com
Chas wrote:
> <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Look, for cops, soldiers, and firemen, you just set the necessary
> > standard (and it ain't sexual apparatus), then make sure the applicants
> > meet the standards.
>
> And in each of the instances you cite, they've lowered the standards based
> specifically on gender.
Altho a long-term feminist, I have to agree with you.
>
> > Tell me you're saying that you don't think most
> > women would meet the standards; not that you're saying they shouldn't
> > teach simply because they're female?
>
> Actually, for me it's not even the physicality- it's the mind-set and
> cultural context.
> And it isn't a metaphysical certainty disproven by a single exception- there
> are 3 billion of them at any given time; surely an exception somewhere.
I note that in my first school, a store front Kung Fu San Soo studio in
the Jimmy Woo Association, about 10% who walked in and signed up were
women. They were technically as good as any of the men. When they got
attacked on the street, they fared well. The ones who learned the
techniques but were known to *not be tigers were the wives/girlfriends
of guys who trained, and came in with their partners to make it a
social thing.
In the aikido dojos I've trained in (the "nice" art), about half the
walk-ins were women.
>
> > On that note, not all teachers need to be Willem de Thouars to teach.
> > You don't need a PhD to teach someone to read and write.
>
> Unless you're doing comparative literature in Indonesian to Chinese to
> Japanese to Medieval Europe- much less as regards the 'other' gender in
> those ouevre.
That's not generally the focus on people who are first learning to read
and write, whether they're 6 or 60. If that's their goal (and it
sometimes *becomes they're goal, later), then they will need a "PhD"
teacher to get to the point they can do this.
>
> > .....Certainly, to
> > get to the higher levels you need a de Thouars, or someone like him.
>
> You mean where skills start to trump physicality?
> yeah.
I would maybe say a little later, but ...yeah.
>
> > But how many public school students go far enough to get their own PhD,
> > or even need one to teach them?
>
> or triumph in the literary arena.
>
Yes. And I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Everyone has
a fierce path to walk, but we don't always know this, or know what the
path is. I have decided a long time ago to put family and other
obligations first, and MA second. I do not regret this decision, but I
am at times acutely aware of the price I have paid.
> > Sure, it's better if you do. But the crime comes in when you have some
> > flyweight misrepresenting himself as a high master.
>
> herself.
Heh. I suspect there are proportionately more male frauds than female
out there, but maybe the self-deceived are about the same.
>
> Chas
Kermit
Fraser Johnston
"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4Medndmq9K0...@comcast.com...
Nope. I mean technique. Positioning, control etc.
Fraser
RTWde...@earthlink.net
attest to the average woman who can hold her own (sorry, couldn't
resist pun) utilizing MMA or BJJ skills. In fact, I can't imagine an
average woman in a dojo or kwoon because average women just are not
into MA's. Given this fact, anyone teaching women SD has to be
realistic and tell them that for most part they'll lose if they go
toe-to-toe w/ an assailant.
One technique I pass down to women is the fact that a person's knee is
one of the most vulnerable areas on the body. Taking out the knee
effectively is like a car w/ no wheels that can't go anywhere.
RTW
T
> OK....my experience is from the traditional arts arena so I can't
> attest to the average woman who can hold her own (sorry, couldn't
> resist pun) utilizing MMA or BJJ skills. In fact, I can't imagine an
> average woman in a dojo or kwoon because average women just are not
> into MA's. Given this fact, anyone teaching women SD has to be
> realistic and tell them that for most part they'll lose if they go
> toe-to-toe w/ an assailant.
Yeah. Ever see them run? Even the ones who jog to stay in shape can't sprint.
I have female colleagues who are genuinely horrified - aghast - when I change
the water cooler bottle; slinging 40 pounds around would, in their opinion, put
them in the hospital. I walked two water bottles from the storeroom to the
water cooler once; took a neck in each stand, stepped forward and swung them up
onto my shoulders, flared my elbows so they rested on my arms, and walked them
maybe fifty feet, lowered them quickly but smoothly to the ground, no thump.
Quick athletic challenging fun; breathing deeply but not panting or burning at
the end.
People acted like I was insane, a small minority acted like I was amazing. I
got a formal, written reprimand - went in my personnel file - that I'd violated
some OSHA thing. Still haven't lived it down; of course, I do occasionally
provide more grist for the mill. ;-)
> One technique I pass down to women is the fact that a person's knee is
> one of the most vulnerable areas on the body. Taking out the knee
> effectively is like a car w/ no wheels that can't go anywhere.
> RTW
A lot of that sort of advice annoys me because I can't do it to a resisting
opponent. Like the stomp on their shoelaces thing; if I slammed the point of my
heel into the top of his foot pretty close to the shin, I'd certainly break a
couple of metatarsals. Unfortunately, in the real world, I'll miss.
Paintball's too strenuous and time-consuming for most of them; fortunately -
Pareto to the rescue - you can get about 80% of maximum SD from carrying a
small-caliber handgun and being ready and willing to point it at Bad Guys. If
you're not willing to that... baaa.
Badger_South
<RTWde...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Good on you for teaching them the 'kneebar'.
-B
Badger_South
>People acted like I was insane, a small minority acted like I was amazing. I
>got a formal, written reprimand - went in my personnel file - that I'd violated
>some OSHA thing. Still haven't lived it down; of course, I do occasionally
>provide more grist for the mill. ;-)
Holy COW you're sh*tting me!
OTOH, I grabbed a 500lb refrigerator to keep it from tipping off a hand
cart and killing a fellow employee. The supervisor said 'no one told you to
step in and grab that...' He was afraid I'd make a worker's comp claim.
A-hole. I ended up with a chronic back injury to L-3. ;-(
-B
Robert Low
> One technique I pass down to women is the fact that a person's knee is
> one of the most vulnerable areas on the body. Taking out the knee
> effectively is like a car w/ no wheels that can't go anywhere.
Yeah, but hitting the knee so as to do it effectively is
actually pretty hard. You need to time it just right.
Last time I kicked somebody's knee moderately hard
(it was an accident: I mistimed it while sparring, and
hit harder than I meant to) the only thing hurt was
my foot. If I'd hit him full blast, he'd have
been laughing while I clutched at a broken foot.
OK, so I was barefoot at the time. If I'd been shod,
things would have been different---I wouldn't have had
such a sore foot. But it still wouldn't have taken
his knee out. And if I'd been relying on it to do
that, I'd have been up shit creek looking desparately
for a paddle.
So yes, the knee can be attacked effectively: but
there's a hell of a lot more to it than just launching
a side kick in the right general direction. I reckon
that most of the time, if you're wearing shoes with
any decent kind of sole at all, you're better off
going for the shin than the knee. I've been kicked
there, and it was pretty excruciating. It would
certainly have given the kicker the chance of a follow-up
or two.
Chas
> Yeah, but hitting the knee so as to do it effectively is
> actually pretty hard.
Yeah- it's actually far more vulnerable to positioning/gravity tricks.
Rather than hit the knee, we often try to 'pin' the foot/ankle, and then
force his body into an awkward position that flexes the knee in a bad
mechanical direction. It's part of what's happening in that 'pukulan'
collision, and often sets up the take-down from the bottom. He lands hurt.
> You need to time it just right.
> Last time I kicked somebody's knee moderately hard
> (it was an accident: I mistimed it while sparring, and
> hit harder than I meant to) the only thing hurt was
> my foot. If I'd hit him full blast, he'd have
> been laughing while I clutched at a broken foot.
We use the heel-bone for a lot of those 'kicks against bone', and the
shin-bone as well. Kicking with the foot is more targeted towards soft
targets, or the practitioner does conditioning preparation. A lot of
fighters don't even consider broken toes to be more than a nuisance- I've
seen pictures of guys who had no more than an ugly fringe on the front of
their foot- and less mutilated examples in real.
> OK, so I was barefoot at the time. If I'd been shod,
> things would have been different---I wouldn't have had
> such a sore foot. But it still wouldn't have taken
> his knee out. And if I'd been relying on it to do
> that, I'd have been up shit creek looking desparately
> for a paddle.
I retrained to deliver kicks whilst wearing shoes/boots- I'm seldom barefoot
in public, and that's where I expect to fight. I've found kicks-in-footware
to be very effective- ranging all the way from 'engineer's bluchers' to
cowboy boots.
I tried kicking some fire hydrants, and found that it was far easier on the
foot than doing it barefooted- it would seem probable, scientifically
speaking, that the experiment would translate to practical action pretty
readily- ymmv.
<g>
Chas
Robert Low
> "Robert Low" <mtx...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote
>>Yeah, but hitting the knee so as to do it effectively is
>>actually pretty hard.
> Yeah- it's actually far more vulnerable to positioning/gravity tricks.
> Rather than hit the knee, we often try to 'pin' the foot/ankle, and then
> force his body into an awkward position that flexes the knee in a bad
> mechanical direction. It's part of what's happening in that 'pukulan'
> collision, and often sets up the take-down from the bottom. He lands hurt.
And I've seen that happen even by accident; it's nasty even
when it isn't intended. (OK, I'll concede that it can
be made much nastier if you actually *want* to cripple
the other guy.)
> I tried kicking some fire hydrants, and found that it was far easier on the
> foot than doing it barefooted- it would seem probable, scientifically
> speaking, that the experiment would translate to practical action pretty
> readily- ymmv.
Yeah, but do you have the video to prove it? :-)
RTWde...@earthlink.net
and that's what I train women of all ages to do. Side kick to the knee?
More like a Cross Kick (lift leg, turn foot to your outside) w/
excellent follow thru'. It is all about body mechanics and the shin
scrape (provided the perp doesn't have on cowboy boots) will take down
anyone who doesn't train/condition their shins. But only if the victim
can muster everything they've got to deliver. Then it's up to them to
run like hell.
One of my 'mates trained his little sis w/ the Cross Kick. She was
accosted by one of the team's wrestlers at night in between dorms. Guy
went down like a sack of 'taters. He had on shorts, and she had on some
athletic shoes (w/ skin still attached to the sole). RTW
SPORTfighter
>effectively is like a car w/ no wheels that can't go anywhere.
>RTW
Good on you for teaching them the 'kneebar'."
It is rare that I compliment a post.
But this one from Badger deserves praise.
It is succinct, yet it says so much.
It says "Stomping a knee in a real fight is almost impossible as
evidenced by MMA, so you are an idiot, and you are discussing
selddefense an I bet you dont even know what a kneebar is."
Really, it just works on so many levels.
Its funny, informative, simple, not vulger, yet is hits like a
hammer.In a way it is both crude and cruel.
My hat is off to you, sir.
Scary
> Whats the best martial art or principle for womens defense
> Many thanks
> nomad
Gun fu: www.glock.com
Run fu: www.runnersworld.com
Brazilian jujitsu: www.bjj.org
What about "Free Running" you might as well look cool when escaping!
Scary.
T
That stuff really is cool; I just wonder how tough you have to be to take a
dozen 15-20' falls in ten minutes. Tougher than me, I suspect.
Rabid Weasel
> remember the nun who taught a female student and Wing Chun was born.
Not a flame, but I personally consider this story to be apocryphal at best.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Rabid Weasel
> I have female colleagues who are genuinely horrified - aghast - when I change
> the water cooler bottle; slinging 40 pounds around would, in their opinion, put
> them in the hospital. I walked two water bottles from the storeroom to the
> water cooler once; took a neck in each stand, stepped forward and swung them up
> onto my shoulders, flared my elbows so they rested on my arms, and walked them
> maybe fifty feet, lowered them quickly but smoothly to the ground, no thump.
> Quick athletic challenging fun; breathing deeply but not panting or burning at
> the end.
>
> People acted like I was insane, a small minority acted like I was amazing. I
> got a formal, written reprimand - went in my personnel file - that I'd violated
> some OSHA thing. Still haven't lived it down; of course, I do occasionally
> provide more grist for the mill. ;-)
OSHA regs state that you can't lift more than about 40 or 50 pounds
without a weight belt.
Any man that did the same *should* get the same writeup but I doubt he
would.
Rabid Weasel
> So yes, the knee can be attacked effectively: but
> there's a hell of a lot more to it than just launching
> a side kick in the right general direction. I reckon
> that most of the time, if you're wearing shoes with
> any decent kind of sole at all, you're better off
> going for the shin than the knee. I've been kicked
> there, and it was pretty excruciating. It would
> certainly have given the kicker the chance of a follow-up
> or two.
Kick to the inside of the knee. It won't break but it'll collapse the
knee and dump him then he has to take the time to get back up. Time that
you could spend running, reloading, or whacking him with your Gentleman's
Walkingstick.