Chinese Shaolin Center / Sin The' / Atlanta
Steven Weigand
The head instructor there is named Master Gary Grooms. He says
that he learned his style from a man by the name of Sin The', who
is grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.
Can anyone tell me anything about these persons and anything about
the style?
A couple of little warning lights went off in my head, and I want to
get your opinions on them... 1) They wear traditional Japanese gi's and
belts. 2) They claim to teach *over* 900 forms from every nook and
cranny of Chinese martial arts... Stuff like "golden centipede", which
I never heard of before. And, they teach, not one, but *every*
internal family of martial arts. So it's not just Yang Tai Chi; they
teach Chen, Yang, Fu, Wu, Sun, etc. And then they teach Ba Gua, Hsing-
Yi, etc. on top of that. And that's just the internal stuff.
It just strikes me as odd for any system to include that much. What's
the deal here?
Thanks,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@udel.edu)
Travis Archer
>I just visited the Chinese Shaolin Center in Atlanta, Georgia.
>The head instructor there is named Master Gary Grooms. He says
>that he learned his style from a man by the name of Sin The', who
>is grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.
I can help you out here, I take Shaolin under Master Sin The'.
Firstly, my knowledge of Grooms is little. The last time I saw him,
he was a 4th-dan, but that was quite a few years ago. I guess he's been
advanced to Master level since. He had a falling out with Master David Soard,
who teaches here at the Boulder Chinese Shaolin Center, and from what I have
heard, he is running a very money-oriented version of Master The's Shaolin.
I hesitate to slam on him, since all I know is hearsay.
>Can anyone tell me anything about these persons and anything about
>the style?
Well, having said as much as I know about Gary Grooms, Master
The' is the current head of our style. According to what I have been told,
(I can not verify all of this personally, of course) here's the story
on how it came to be known as Shaolin-do.
First, if you believe our version of Chinese history, (I will speak
from now on as if it were undisputed, to simplify explanation)
there were quite a few Buddhist/Taoist temples that taught martial
arts before the end of imperial reign.
Supposedly there were fujian, shandong, wudang, huashan, honan,
omeishan and guangdong temples. Although not all were of the same religious
sect, whether Buddhist, Taoist or even the same sect of Taoism, they all
taught martial arts, and collected styles from the outside world, bringing
them back to the temple.
Also, somewhere around the mid-1800's, a man named (bastardized
Wade-giles romanization) "Su Kong Tai Djin" or something to that effect.
He was deserted near the fujian temple as a baby because he was
born with a rare disease that caused him to have hair, as thick as fur, all
over his body. His parents thought he was a demon, and so abandoned him.
The monks, being the wonderful guys they were, raised him in the temple.
(this bit of the story I'm probably telling wrong, my memory fades)
He was not a religious monk, but a martial one, and he exhibited
amazing ability. He was allowed, unlike most monks, to learn everything
taught at the temple, instead of mastering only one style. He was eventually
named the grandmaster of martial arts at the temple, or so the story goes.
There was another monk at the temple, a much younger one, at
the time, named yi jang ming, or something to that effect, who left the
temple for some reason or another. When the temple was burned down,
Grandmaster Su fled and went into hiding.
Yi jang ming sought him out and asked to be his disciple, was
accepted, and taught him everything he knew, which was a mixture of styles
from the temples. It is also clear that some of what yi jang ming learned,
he learned outside of the temple, before becoming Su's disciple.
Anyway, at some point after Grandmaster Su died and he became his
successor, yi jang ming was forced to flee china, ostensibly because he
killed some soldiers in an altercation where they tried to make him lick
their boots. (Nice story, eh? Who knows, maybe he had private relations
with someone's wife) :)
He moved to Indonesia and opened a martial arts school there.
However, because of the prejudice towards chinese at the time, it was
illegal to teach chinese martial arts, so Grandmaster Yi called in Shaolin
Karate-Do, used gis and the Japanese belt system, and even added a set of
self-defense called Ippon Kumite. Sin Kwang's (shenguang) family was
chinese, and his father was a friend of Master Yi. Sin Kwang, at the
young age of 7, wanted to be a student of Master Yi, and was accepted, and
eventually became his successor. Master The', fluent in 7 languages by
the age of 13, moved to the United States to study nuclear physics in 1964.
He opened a school in Lexington, Ky, and became the Grandmaster
when Yi died in 1976. (at the ripe age of 96)
He has been teaching in the United States for over 30 years, and
a few of his students have reached 6th-dan, which is considered "Master"
level.
I cannot speak for Mr. Grooms, but I can say that Master The'
is a very unique, highly skilled individual. He is 52, I believe, but
is in incredible shape. For the last few years, he has been in the
process of trying to get a movie made, and he intends, with the money,
to build a live-in training center, temple if you will, in California,
where students could train _full-time_ just like in the old days.
He does in fact _know_ 900 forms, roughly. And supposedly,
he's got over 2000 in total, in written form, that supposedly originate
in the temples. These documents, if they truly do exist, are an amazing
collection of hundreds of styles of martial arts.
In the Shaolin-do system, nowhere near this number of forms is
learned by students, and of the ones learned, a lot are not required
material. To advance to the level of 5th degree black belt, if I remember
correctly, the necessary requirements include the following forms
of varying difficulty level:
30 lohan fist (short, the sum total being about as long as 1 very long form)
4 white crane
6 tiger (four of those being black tiger)
4 bird (dove, etc.)
5 spear (including drunken immortals)
5 straight-sword (including yang taiji and drunken)
1 double tiger hook-sword
2 single broadsword (including drunken)
1 double broadsword
baguazhang (with extra emphasis on application and conditioning)
Yang taiji (short form) (with extra application and conditioning)
4 xingyi (12 animals, 5 roads, linkage and two-man set)
6 huashanquan (the four roads of Hua mountain fist, including 2 two-man sets)
8 drunken immortals (8 empty-hand, a ground-fighting training set and the
aforementioned spear)
1 chainwhip
1 cha (chinese sai)
1 kwan dao
1 beiquan (northern fist)
1 nanquan southern fist
1 stick
2 double-ended staff
1 cane (shorter staff)
1 single-ended staff
2 praying mantis
1 spear vs. broadsword two-man set
1 tiger-crane
I may have left some out, but that's about 58 forms, some very short,
some very long, but in reality, it's a far number from 900. :)
The following qigong/conditioning training is also taught before 5th:
ho tien qi meditation (Buddhist)
xien tien qi meditation (Taoist)
Hua To animal live and dead play
iron shirt qigong
yijinjing
yin/yang (resistance training, mostly, ie instead of pushups, someone
pushes you down)
iron palm training &
iron bone training (similar to muay thai conditioning)
taiji push-hands training
full-contact glove sparring (yay! ok, it's not qigong, but it's fun! :)
qinna(really not qigong, unless you count pressure point activation)
I'm sure I left at least one thing out, but that pretty much covers it
up to 5th-dan, and you can get an idea of what the training is like
up to that point. Later on, the ground dragon, snake, leopard, tiger and
crane systems are also taught, in their entirety. (I believe)
>cranny of Chinese martial arts... Stuff like "golden centipede", which
Quite a large amount of the material has not been taught to
anyone yet by Master The'. I believe this is part of it.
>I never heard of before. And, they teach, not one, but *every*
>internal family of martial arts. So it's not just Yang Tai Chi; they
>teach Chen, Yang, Fu, Wu, Sun, etc. And then they teach Ba Gua, Hsing-
>Yi, etc. on top of that. And that's just the internal stuff.
Not all! There are quite a few internal styles not taught, and
there are a few you probably can't find anywhere else. :)
>It just strikes me as odd for any system to include that much. What's
>the deal here?
Master The' went through "memory-training" as a child, according
to the stories, which explains the fluency in so many languages as well.
The deal is, shaolin-do is unique in it's vastness, but it might
not be your cup of tea. Many students cannot handle the memory
requirements, (which basically just mean you have to practice more) and
drop out along the way.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the "history", but I can
speak for the validity of the material. And over the years, I continue
to hear evidence that backs up his claim. More than one other chinese
martial art school from Indonesia that had to pretend it was japanese,
for example, and the fact that there are monks starting to come over to
america to open schools that list a very similarly comprehensive number
of styles in their "shaolin" legacy. I have heard of at least 5 other
schools, totally unrelated to ours, which claim to teach most of what
is taught at our school, in some form or another.
In fact, I took a look at a "shaolin" home page very recently,
saw an almost identical style/training list, but the last note said,
"unfortunately, there is only one school in America right now, and it is in
Seattle", taught by Sum Yung Guy or what ever his name was.
There are those who feel that learning so much material is not
a good thing. That may be, but I fully stand behind the art of Shaolin-do.
Master The' is an amazing man, and not to be dismissed.
(You know, Arnold Scharzenegger came by his training center in KY back
when he was Mr. Universe, and they had a bench-press contest. Master The'
won. :) The picture is still on the wall of his school in KY, I think.)
Ok, story-time over. Disclaimer: I do not represent the opinions
of the Shaolin art as taught by Grandmaster The' and some amount
of the above is hearsay. If I am wrong about Mr. Grooms's qualifications,
I apologize.
Travis
jychow
out that as a CHINESE from Sabah (this lies between Malaysia, Indonesia and
Philippines), I do not agree with your account of Shaolin.
Maybe you should ask Grandmaster Chi Kim Tong (and his student Master Yap Cheng
Hai) of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for a more accurate account.
Does your grandmaster know grandmaster Tang Chun Hu (ie. Chang Chun Fu)?
He was a Kung Fu master openly teaching Kung Fu to the Chinese community in
Indonsia and was in the thick of the racial fighting there. Does you
grandmaster have the documentary and photographic prove of his history there?
Traditionally, we say that 5 monks escape the demise of the Shaolin temple.
Your grandmaster's name is not amongst the list. WHY? A secret, and until
recently hidden secret that nobody else know? Well, I can also say that my
grandfather was a one of those who escaped too. But where is the
proof/disproof? We claim these things because there is no body to check out
on us.
Look at it this way, Shaolin is Shaolin. Tai Chi is Tai Chi. In the Shaolin
Temple, you practise Shaolin, not Tai Chi. Not Yang Style Tai Chi, Wu Style
Tai Chi, Chen Style Tai Chi. Actually, Yang and Chen Style only came out of
obcurity into Peking (Beijing) about 150 years ago. How come it was practised
in Shaolin Temple?
There is a hell lot of misunderstanding in the West about Shaolin Temple.
This is a Buddhist Monastery. - a place for spiritual cultivation. It is a
monastery of the Chan (Zen) sect. They pray and meditate mostly, not practise
Kung Fu. That is why there is not so much Kung Fu at the Temple if you
really check it out. The communist government has tried to bring Kung Fu back
to the Temple and monks there, and even allowed an institute to be set up
nearby. However, the Kung Fu classes there are noty the old Kung Fu of China
- it is similar and a variation of modern Wu Shu. This is a money making
scheme.
It is not that I do not believe your system has different styles and many
forms. Yes, a lot of schools nowadays mix, match and pinch from each other.
You will even find Tai Chi, Hsing I and Pa Kua in some Karate schools!!!! But
it does not mean that claims that a particular school, ryu ....etc had Tai Chi
going back........ to Kyoto and Okinawa prime days. It is more "American"
history.
Also, Westerners have a misunderstanding that some Chinese temples teach Kung
Fu. NO!!! They are temples. They are really places for cultivation, not
Kung Fu!!! Pleas, please, do not speak to young monks. Go research with the
old monks who have really been there and living in the monasteries. Real
monasteries in old China at the beginning of 20th Century. Please, please do
not talk to the younger monks who only read fictions about the monasteries and
passed it on to ignorant Westerners. Go and research DIRECTLY with old monks
- 80 or 90 years old. In fact, one born 1900 is well known to me in Malaysia.
I also caution that there is no temple policy or policy of certain senior
individuals at the Shaolin temple to "collect styles from the outside world,
bringing them back to the temple". Where is the proof of this? The temples
do have records. Show us this policy.
I have never heard the story of "Su Kong Tai Djin" before. You should go to
the Shaolin Temple and verify this to be true. Mch less his coronation as
Grandmaster of Martial Arts of the Shaolin Temple.
As a side issue, a certain foreigner claimed that he was appointed as head of
the Northern Shaolin martial arts syatem at the Shaolin Temple just before the
2nd World War too. What the world does not know is that the Chinese Martial
Arts association in Hong Kong and others took legal action and force him to
rescind that claim. We are not saying his martial prowess is low, we are
saying the claims are not true. Got it?
Your grandmaster's claim is not unique , even in America. There is someone,
a Chinese, in somewhere ariound Santa Fe, I think, who claims to be a graduate
of Shaolin Temple. He also claims to have learnt Tibetan Tai Chi at the
temple! Goodnes gracious!!! Tai Chi Chuan, a Wu Tang system, is not taught
at the Shaolin Temple which is a centre for Buddhist cultivation. Much less
Tibetan Tai Chi. Now, goodness me, there is no such art as Tibetan Tai Chi -
not in the real traditional sense. The term Tai Chi is, admittedly old. But
the term Tai Chi Chuan was applied and named for the system by Yang Lu Chan
himself! Prior to that, there is no Tai Chi Chuan as a system. Yang Lu Chan
coined it after he got famous in Peking (Beijing) in 18XX. He is the founder
of Yang Style. There is no Tibetan lineage that is traced to master Yang, nor
is there any traced to the Chen village where master Yang learnt it from.
That is what I meant by there is no such thing as Tibetan Tai Chi.
Of course, there is Tibetan Tai Chi - in USA!!!!! Got my drift? There is
where I differ with your folks - historical accounts.
Now, are there any historical records of Yi Jang Ming???? Does the Shaolin
Temple has any records of both masters Su and Yi???? Please do your
research.
Now, to master Su. Have you researched into him and his activities in
Indonesia independently of what your teachers say? Do you know exactly what
he taught there and what he did not teach there? This is important, because
you have to verify the authenticity of the various arts in your system as truly
coming from Master Su only, or a host of other masters, plus videos....etc.
You must compare the sylabus. And the sub-sylabus in detail. eg. Short
Yang style Tai Chi. What is taught in USA and what is (no, actually WAS)
taught in Indonesia. Is this form found else where? Where? Is this the
same as the Cheng Man Ching form? Ah! The Cheng Man Ching form was created
by Chen himself after he escaped the communisrt to Taiwan. It was likely to be
be created in 195X. Not in Shaolin Temple. Wrong place, and wrong time!
Do you get the drift - do a deep research.
About Pa Kua, that was bought out by Master Tung and not very different time
frame from Tai Chi too. Master Tung didn't have many closed door students
either, like the Yangs of TAi Chi. How did Tai Chi become famous and
widespread?
It was thru Yang Cheng Fu in the 30's and 40's. It was well pread in the main
coastal cities.
That incident about Arnold Scharneger - check out whether that picture still
exists and whether it is authentic. Also, check with Arnold himself whetherr
it is true, at least, check with eye witnesses.
This is not to deliberately offend you. If what you say is true, I am willing
to mail the WEB and apologise profusely. It is just that I have learnt the
history of Shaolin to the contrary. I am also not berating the ability of
your instructors. They possibly may be very skillful and powerful. Bt if
they are really so, then they should not need such stories to prop up their
stature and justify their presence. Their ability speaks, and speaks loudly!
As I mentioned, iI will apologise to your system publicly if you can provide
all the evidence to prove without doubt that whatever you said is true.
Yours faithfully,
John Chow
jychow
You have a very keen and inquisitive mind that we in the martial arts community
need. Good luck to you with your enquiry. Most probably, Shaolin Do is a
newly created style in USA? The thrust of the enquiry maybe to locate this so
called Grandmaster Sin Te????
jychow
Jeffrey Takacs
: I just visited the Chinese Shaolin Center in Atlanta, Georgia.
: that he learned his style from a man by the name of Sin The', who
: is grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.
: Can anyone tell me anything about these persons and anything about
: the style?
: A couple of little warning lights went off in my head, and I want to
: get your opinions on them... 1) They wear traditional Japanese gi's and
: belts. 2) They claim to teach *over* 900 forms from every nook and
: cranny of Chinese martial arts... Stuff like "golden centipede", which
: I never heard of before. And, they teach, not one, but *every*
: internal family of martial arts. So it's not just Yang Tai Chi; they
: teach Chen, Yang, Fu, Wu, Sun, etc. And then they teach Ba Gua, Hsing-
: Yi, etc. on top of that. And that's just the internal stuff.
: It just strikes me as odd for any system to include that much. What's
: the deal here?
: Thanks,
: - Steve Weigand
: (wei...@udel.edu)
A "Shaolin-Do"? What the heck was that? Isn't "do" a Japanese word for tao?
Isn't Japanese belt ranks going to foster competition in a Shaoling temple?
The guy must be old. To learn 900 forms, lets say 2 years each to master
them...Gary Grooms must be about 1800 years old? Did you puch hands with
any of them? See them glide across the floor?
Avoid them like halitosis.
Jeff
Tye W. Botting
%Maybe you should ask Grandmaster Chi Kim Tong (and his student Master Yap Cheng
%Hai) of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for a more accurate account.
Hmmm, would this Yap Cheng Hai, be or be related to a guy that I
knew as David Jackson (DJ) Yap? If so, that's pretty nifty, as
he was my first kung fu instructor back in 1982, when I was living
in Kuala Lumpur. I've been trying to track him down ever since.
Can you give me any more information on the whereabouts and the
particulars of the style? (I only was with Sifu Yap for about
6 months before I had to move back to the States).
Tye Botting | - I told you I'd come back; remember Buchanon?
t...@pro-haven.cts.com | - But you're not Buchanon!
bot...@leper.tamu.edu | - I don't look like him, but I am him.
| Don't you recognize the voice of him?
N.Shaolin/N.Praying Mantis |
Tajiquan & Modern Arnis | - Roky Erikson and the Aliens
#10
Tye W. Botting
%A "Shaolin-Do"? What the heck was that? Isn't "do" a Japanese word for tao?
Not getting into this, but "do" is one way to spell how it is
pronounced in Cantonese and (maybe) Shanghaiese, I believe.
Ever hear of Jeet Kune Do? Those are all Chinese words.
%Isn't Japanese belt ranks going to foster competition in a Shaoling temple?
%The guy must be old. To learn 900 forms, lets say 2 years each to master
%them...Gary Grooms must be about 1800 years old? Did you puch hands with
%any of them? See them glide across the floor?
Welp, I would guess that Mr. Grooms knows less than 100. I think
only their head dude knows the 900 - not totally unreasonable, I
think. I know about 85, and have been a college student most of
the 14 years it took me to learn them. Lessee, a full time kungfu
student should be able to do at least 3 times as well, even without
"memory training." So, it's possible, at least.
Tye Botting | It's a cold night for alligators.
t...@pro-haven.cts.com | It's a cold night for dogs.
bot...@leper.tamu.edu | The dogs choke on their barking,
| when they see alligator-persons
N.Shaolin/N.Praying Mantis | in the park in fog.
Taijiquan & Modern Arnis | - Roky Erikson & the Aliens
#14
Travis Archer
>I am not debunking your master or grandmaster here, but I would like to point
>out that as a CHINESE from Sabah (this lies between Malaysia, Indonesia and
>Philippines), I do not agree with your account of Shaolin.
That's fine. :)
>Maybe you should ask Grandmaster Chi Kim Tong (and his student Master Yap Cheng
>Hai) of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for a more accurate account.
Who? Grandmaster of what, by the way?
>Does your grandmaster know grandmaster Tang Chun Hu (ie. Chang Chun Fu)?
I don't know. I could ask him next time I see him. :)
>Does you grandmaster have the documentary and photographic prove of his
>history there?
His family still lives there, and our school has done trips
to Bandung to meet his family and students who learned with him from
Master yi. I have seen photographs of master yi and master su, and
actually possess a copy of the latter.
>Traditionally, we say that 5 monks escape the demise of the Shaolin temple.
Which temple are you referring to? Honan or fujian?
Remember, fujian temple is not to be confused with shaolin, although there
was significant interaction.
>Your grandmaster's name is not amongst the list.
What list???
>Tai Chi, Chen Style Tai Chi. Actually, Yang and Chen Style only came out of
>obcurity into Peking (Beijing) about 150 years ago. How come it was practised
>in Shaolin Temple?
Because they saw value in it? Do you dispute that the monks
brought knowledge from outside the temple back with them? Do you dispute
that certain monks (especially of the wudang temple) practised taiji, xingyi
and bagua?
Have you ever read the story of the Wandering Taoist? (yes,
I know, it's more fantasy reading than history)
Do you know about huashan mountain, where the fist of hua mountain set
originates from? Do you know that until recently, few had heard of
it, yet now, aside from Master The', who has been teaching it for at
here in America for at least _20_ years. (many years before the Wandering
Taoist came out)
Now, some reputable teachers, as they come over to America, teach
this style, Zhang Luping, I believe, being one of them.
The fact that The' was teaching it many years ago, before anyone
else here had even heard of it, and that it suddenly now surfaces as a
traditional art, only further supports his credibility.
He was teaching 8 drunken immortals before people say it was created
as a Wushu style. I've seen spear and sword sets supposedly created by
the Communist government in the late 1960's that are identical in sequence
(except for a small section at the end) that he was teaching before
that time.
He was teaching xingyi and bagua here in America in the mid-60's,
when it was a rare style. He's not one of those recent fools who are
jumping on the bandwagon.
There are a good number of his fellow students under master yi
still living in Indonesia. Maybe talking to them would clear your
suspicions.
>to the Temple and monks there, and even allowed an institute to be set up
>nearby. However, the Kung Fu classes there are noty the old Kung Fu of China
>- it is similar and a variation of modern Wu Shu. This is a money making
>scheme.
Yes, I agree, our students had the same reaction when they went
to the temple a few years back and were hosted by the shaolin monks and
performed for them. (and watched them perform)
One of the old masters watched one of our students perform a
sword set, and afterwards came up and said that he couldn't believe his
eyes, that he had not seen that performed since he was a child.
This is no lie.
>I also caution that there is no temple policy or policy of certain senior
> individuals at the Shaolin temple to "collect styles from the outside world,
>bringing them back to the temple". Where is the proof of this? The temples
>do have records. Show us this policy.
Wrong temple. Anyway, the temples records were supposedly all burned
when the temple was burned. Show me these records first!
>I have never heard the story of "Su Kong Tai Djin" before. You should go to
>the Shaolin Temple and verify this to be true. Mch less his coronation as
>Grandmaster of Martial Arts of the Shaolin Temple.
Like I said before, _wrong_ temple. (ArGH) This was fujian, not
honan. Besides, the only monks at the temple who would remember would
have been children at the time, and since the temple was burned down and
not restored for many years, why would most of them have even been monks
at the time?
>temple! Goodnes gracious!!! Tai Chi Chuan, a Wu Tang system, is not taught
>at the Shaolin Temple which is a centre for Buddhist cultivation.
I have seen many ads for "Shaolin schools". Maybe they're all jumping
on the bandwagon by teaching taiji, but not Master The', he was teaching
it here in the U.S. before the show "Kung Fu" came on. His art was
referred to as Shaolin-do many years before Bruce Lee became famous for
Enter the Dragon.
I admit it's possible his claims are not true. I do not know.
Maybe he's the original, first-ever MA charlatan. :) I highly doubt it.
Show me one shred of evidence that contradicts his claims. (Not what you
interpreted, but what he actually claims...)
Btw, did you actually read my post, about how the separate temples taught
different styles? And how master su was unique in that he learned all the
styles taught at all these temples? This does not contradict the fact
that he learned taiji. He was not a monk at the shaolin temple, but the
fujian temple. And furthermore
>Now, are there any historical records of Yi Jang Ming????
Surely, born 1880, died 1976, lived in Bandung, Indonesia for many years.
Why don't you ask any of his students if he ever existed. They're old,
but they're still alive. :)
>Does the Shaolin
>Temple has any records of both masters Su and Yi????
Probably not, since _NEITHER_ were monks at the Shaolin temple.
Just because he chose to call his style shaolin-do doesn't mean it's
_exactly_ what was taught at the shaolin temple. It's a combination of
styles from different temples and probably also some stuff Master yi
picked up in China between living at the temple and becoming Master su's
disciple.
>Now, to master Su. Have you researched into him and his activities in
>Indonesia independently of what your teachers say?
Su never lived in Indonesia.
>Do you know exactly what he taught there and what he did not teach there?
The syllabus of Master yi is comparable, since there are photos
from that time, and there are still students of his living there.
I, however, have not confirmed them
>This is important, because you have to verify the authenticity of the
>various arts in your system as truly
>coming from Master Su only, or a host of other masters, plus videos....etc.
They didn't have videotape when Master The' started teaching
these styles in America.
>taught in Indonesia. Is this form found else where? Where? Is this the
>same as the Cheng Man Ching form?
You bet.
>Ah! The Cheng Man Ching form was created by Chen himself after he escaped
>the communisrt to Taiwan. It was likely to be be created in 195X.
Before the 50's, actually, his book on the subject was published in the
early 50's, I believe.
>Not in Shaolin Temple. Wrong place, and wrong time!
I never said this form originated from the shaolin temple. As I said,
master yi traveled china and picked up some stuff from around there.
At the _very_ worst, he was one of the first to learn it. :)
>That incident about Arnold Scharneger - check out whether that picture still
>exists and whether it is authentic. Also, check with Arnold himself whetherr
>it is true, at least, check with eye witnesses.
I'll ask Arnold tomorrow when we meet for tennis. :)
No seriously I've seen the picture of Arnold and Master The'. It's no forgery,
believe me. And it makes sense, also, if you realize that Master The's
training center includes a full weight gym. The reason Arnold was there
was probably an autograph-signing at his gym, or something similarly
normal.
>This is not to deliberately offend you.
Of course not. :) I wouldn't take it that way.
>As long as their ability speaks, and speaks loudly!
As I have said before, it is because of the material that
The' teaches and his skill and personality (very humble, quiet mostly, yet
with a good sense of humor) that I find myself giving him the benefit of
the doubt. I am not a member of his school because I was lured by the story.
>As I mentioned, iI will apologise to your system publicly if you can provide
>all the evidence to prove without doubt that whatever you said is true.
I cannot provide evidence right now beyond my personal experience
and my judgement of character. Give me a few years, though, I'm spending
next summer and possibly longer in beijing to study, and I hope to visit
Bandung and Fujian province while I'm in "the area".
Besides, if you can provide anything to disprove his account, feel
free. So far, most of your comments apply to a temple he never claimed to
be at. :)
For example, a good place to start would be the history of
the fujian temple. The Hung Gar people (I believe) say the fujian temple
was burned down a lot longer ago, and never rebuilt. But even then, I've heard
conflicting dates on it's burning that vary by as much as 50 years.
So, until someone provides me with some evidence to the contrary,
or until I find out myself through research that it isn't true, I'll
continue to support the story. And I'll always practice shaolin-do, because
I've never seen another school (and I've looked at and been a member of quite
a few) which comes closer to what I want to learn.
Peace, Travis
Dakin Burdick
respected figure in the kung-fu world. The story about Chinese
martial arts being illegal in Malyasia is correct, which explains
the name "Shaolin Karate-Do"! I'm not impressed by huge numbers of
forms, etc., but I've seen some of his black belts (yes, black
belts in Kung-fu!) and they seem to know what they're doing. I'd
say, go for it if you want to start learning the traditional
Chinese arts. You can always branch off later, and he should give
you a good base to start from.
Dakin
burd...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Jeffrey Takacs
: In article <40g4bg$p...@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>, tak...@email.unc.edu (Jeffrey Takacs) writes...
: %A "Shaolin-Do"? What the heck was that? Isn't "do" a Japanese word for tao?
: Not getting into this, but "do" is one way to spell how it is
: pronounced in Cantonese and (maybe) Shanghaiese, I believe.
: Ever hear of Jeet Kune Do? Those are all Chinese words.
Sure, I've heard of Jeet Kune Do. Its part of the title of Lee's book,
the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, the Way of the Intercepting Fist Way.
anyway, Tye: how and why did you learn 85 forms in 14 years?
Thats...almost six a year? Two months apeice? What do you call a form?
Is one tan tui line a form? It took me a year to learn the Chen short
form, and another eight months to get through Kung Si once (let alone
learn it!!!). I think you mean something different than I do when I say
"form" and "learn". No offense intended.
Also, Travis. Fujian (Fukien) temple was Shaolin temple. Honan was the
first, the Northern Shaolin, and Fukien (built around 900 CE) was the
Southern Shaolin. Fukien was destroyed in 1734 by the Ching (according
the legends of the Hung Gar) and rebuilt shortly thereafter (according to
the legends of the Chuka). There are numerous dates for the destruction
of the several temples, I think the confusion results a) from the
destruction of temple records, adn b) from the fact that they were
destroyed frequently.
train on.
Jeff
Tye W. Botting, SysAdmin
%Tye W. Botting (t...@leper.tamu.edu) wrote:
%anyway, Tye: how and why did you learn 85 forms in 14 years?
[Jeez! I hadn't realized there were people out there who would
actually think I was tooting my own horn. I was making a point,
using an example at hand, namely me. Let's take this one point at
a time... ]
How? - Lots of practice and lots of interest.
Why? - Lots of interest.
As I told someone else in e-mail, this much material is *not*
required in my style; I've picked it up through various friendships
with other instructors, and because I find it helps my original
material. The more forms I have to dissect and analyze, the
easier applications come to me, at the expense of making the
perfection of their performance harder to maintain, simply due
to the amount of material. I take this into account, and devote
more and more time, as I get more material. I expect there
will be a point of no return; however, I haven't gotten there yet.
Perhaps if I worked out less, I might.
I usually work out 2 hours a day on my material, both old and new,
in addition to teaching 2hr classes 3 times a week, attending a local
class once a week, and still commuting to my main instructor 100
miles away for instructors' classes. Does that make any of this
any clearer for you? For a while there, I did a lot more than that.
%Thats...almost six a year? Two months apeice?
Hmmm, I don't know about you, but once I learn a form, I keep
working it, rotating through my material, searching for new and
better applications, bettering my performance of it, etc, etc.
Working each form a number of times, a number of ways, it takes
me about a week to rotate through all my material to my satisfaction.
Then the process starts all over again. I also rotate through
with 'project forms' that get a bit more attention and work.
The idea that two months and then you're done with a form is
patently ridiculous. I'm still working on those first forms I
learned my first year, in addition to the more recent ones I
learned this year. One actually can be learning new material,
while perfecting older material at the same, even if it consists
of multiple forms. *GASP*! Imagine that! Say it isn't so!
Now, if we're talking MASTERING a form, well, I'll gladly admit
that I haven't mastered even the most basic one of them - I'm
still finding throws, locks, breaks, etc. in our most basic
form.
%What do you call a form?
What has been taught to me as a form. They can range in length
from 226 beats to as little as 9 beats. I define a "beat" as
a count of the form, where it doesn't matter how many things are
going on at once, it's still one beat. If it's one thing, that's
fine; if it's four things, that's still fine, and still one beat.
The average, using the total of 85 forms, is somewhere around
35-40 beats/form. If you shorten it to 68 forms, the average is
more like 50 or so beats/form.
%Is one tan tui line a form?
Actually, the way we count it, it is. Does that make it more
palatable to you? If so, fine. We'll take out all the lines
I know, and reduce them to their named set - that brings me
down to 68, after combining the Tan Tui lines, the Duan Chuan
lines, and the Lui Shou lines. Feel better? And, of course,
there's stuff as long, or longer, than most forms, that aren't
forms, so I don't count them (8 Dui Shou exercises, Hsiao Wu Shou,
conditioning sets, etc).
%It took me a year to learn the Chen short form,
Me too. And the Yang long form, etc, etc. Your point is...?
%and another eight months to get through Kung Si once (let alone
%learn it!!!). I think you mean something different than I do when I say
%"form" and "learn".
Maybe, maybe not. From what you've posted, I might posit that you
have even a less demanding definition of learning a form than I.
Do you dissect each of your forms looking for the five major
types of applications (striking/pressure-pts, blocking/parrying,
unbalancing/sweeping/throwing, avoiding/manuevering, grappling/
chin na) and the six major principles (sticking, grounding/balance,
feeling, flowing, closing, dominating) and the six attitudes
(visualization, character, awareness/perception, timing, intent,
synthesis)? I do, and more (interception, as many of the five
major applications as I get to happen all at once from a series
in the form, looking at all of them as two-man sets, etc, etc).
If you do also, great. If you do more, then please let me know
what you do additionally; I'm always open to more ideas of cool
things to look for in my forms.
Regardless, my original point was not to say how remarkable I am
(I'm not; I consider myself rather mediocre), but to make the point
that someone who *was* remarkable, *could* indeed do what they say
Sin Kwang The' has done with regard to the number of forms he
knows. Nothing is impossible. I know next to nothing about their
style, forms, classes, whatever; I just dislike people stating
categorical absolutes that are obviously false. Proof by assertion
is no proof at all.
You seem to have made up your mind about me without knowing anything
of my training, interests, understanding, or even style. If you
want some opinions from those who've met me, you're free to ask
what they thought. Ask Lauren Radner - ask Jeff Pipkins; both of
whom are also long-time r.m-a'ers who'll pull no punches and tell
you exactly what they think.
%No offense intended.
I doubt that. People think that little phrase at the end of a
few sentences absolves them of all things negative. I don't.
Tye Botting | It's not a sledgehammer.
t...@pro-haven.cts.com | It's not a chisel..
bot...@leper.tamu.edu | It's not a train,
| but a thought of unlimited horror...
N.Shaolin/N.Praying Mantis |
Taijiquan & Modern Arnis | - Roky Erikson and the Aliens
#11
Jeffrey Takacs
: %No offense intended.
Tye,
Truely, no offense intended. If I intended to offend you I would. I
don't. I've had the displeasure of people who claimed to know
"hundreds" of forms, and they generally did none of them well. I am
merely skeptical. If you are that thurough in your training, which is
twice as intense as my own, I humbly admit
(and the question "Does he sleep?" comes to mind), then you should not be
offended by my asking a few questions.
I simply wanted to know if it was true.
Peace,
Jeff
Tak Y Wong
>Travis (arc...@benji.Colorado.EDU (Travis Archer) kindly replied to my
>
> >Who? Grandmaster of what, by the way?
>
>across a bridge. I fear master Tang/Chang may have already passed away. If
>he were alive, he would be in his late 80's, if not early 90's. A loss for
>us!
I know of Chee Kim Tong and Chang Chun Fu - they have been around
for a long time. I think Chee had a very sizable group in
Malaysia in the 60's. I think most of the "Five Elders"
practitioners from this area are from his school. I have never
heard of this Sin The fellow. But there are many like him nowadays.
>
>new movement and sect to do that.
>Nice story? Yes! But where is the proof? Hah! I pull out a photo of me
>with the Dalai Lama in a very friendly pose. There is another one with me
I have an amber bead from Dalai's rosary, given to me by a
Buddhist monk, who was friendly with Dalai. Personally, I think
Dalai, like many other Tibetan monks, is much more a political
figure head than a spiritual leader. Western people have such
misconceptions about religions and culture of the Far East - they
like to believe what seem obvious, and easily fitted into their
own ideology.
>
>>>Traditionally, we say that 5 monks escape the demise of the Shaolin temple.
This is really a Chinese folklore very native to Southern provinces,
espcially Fujian and QuangTong. As the legends go, these were not
really monks originally; they were generals under the Taiwanese
militarist Cheng Cheng-Kong. After Cheng was defeated by the
Imperial army, these 5 generals took their families and sought
refuge in monasteries. This was a common practice of the time
for someone of ill-repute to hide in obscure places. At that time,
the capital of China was in Beijing, and Fujian and GuangDong
were the farthest from the capital. Traditionally, the imperial
government ostracised political prisoners and officials out of
favor to these remote areas as a punishment. Because of poor
means for communication and travel, the central government had
little control over these areas. It made a save haven for criminals
and escapees, and eventally GuangDong became the base for modern
revolutions.
>> Which temple are you referring to? Honan or fujian?
>>Remember, fujian temple is not to be confused with shaolin, although there
>>was significant interaction.
>
>Gossip say that 5 monks escaped the Shaolin Temple. It is believed to refer
>to the Honan one because that is the only one that we can find. It was thought
I think these are Chinese "suburban legends", at best.
>that Shaolin Temple existed in other provinces, like Fukkien, but research and
>searches failed to locate them so it was concluded that these are just mere
>gossip. Some Kung Fu people belived there was a Fukkien branch of the Shaolin
>Temple, but searches failed to find any evidence of it.
This rumor was actually started by a grade school headmaster in
the early days of the Nationalist government (circa 1910 - 1920's).
Supposedly, the headmaster uncovered some old documents from a
former site of a monastery. He somehow pieced together many of tales
about the 5 Elders, White Brow, Hung Gar, etc., from his own sources
and words of mouth. Nobody had ever actually seen the documents he
claimed he found in an iron box in a burnt site. At any rate, many
people took the storyline and developed their own newspaper serials
and radio stories. It is also very interesting that the Shaolin
Temple in Honan has no record or any knowledge of such "history".
>
>Whatever the case, your grandmaster's name is not one of the 5 monks -
>whichever Shaolin Temple that the story relates to.
If enough people talk about it, he can possibly get into the next
generation of "5 Elders" stories, though.
>which is the only Shaolin Temple we can prove to have existed. These are
>actually monasteries of the Chan Sect - they pray and meditate there, not
>practise Kung Fu. The monastery was not set up as a Kung Fu place - please get
This is something that perhaps the monks themselves could not
comprehend. The term ShaoLin Chuan is actually a very
generic name. because of the legend about the 13 monks dated back
to the Tang Dynasty. The Shaolin Temple as a Kung Fu institute
only makes sense in Wu Xia novels. This anamoly has been documented
by many scholars since the 1920's. However, most people find the
"history" in kung fu movies or novels more easily acceptable.
The Chinese people used the term Shaolin liberally just as Americans
use the name "jeep", not realizing that "jeep" is actually a trademark
of GMC.
>this straight. What is causing the confusion is that sometimes, there are
>fugitives from the law, or retired soldiers, who, obviously have a martial
>background, came to dseek refuge at the monastery (or the many hundreds of
>monasteries). They shaved their heads and became monks - by doing so, they
>disguised themselves (I mean the fugitives) and escaped easy recognition.
This was a very common practice in old China. Many temples, both
Buddhist and Taois, in more remote areas, were actually hideouts for
highway bandits disguised as monks.
>
>Well, that is how Kung Fu get to be practised there. That is never the main
>curriculum. I dispute that!!!! It is like some catholic monasteries were
Come to think of it, isn't it ludicrous to have a monastery that
specializes in sports rather than spiritual learning? But then,
many people today think they can obtain enlightment from a local
kung fu school. This is in fact a very interesting approach to
marketing.
>> Have you ever read the story of the Wandering Taoist? (yes,
>>I know, it's more fantasy reading than history)
Even though this is a total fraud, it makes hilarious reading.
>
>
>
>> Do you know about huashan mountain, where the fist of hua mountain set
>>originates from? Do you know that until recently, few had heard of
>>it, yet now, aside from Master The', who has been teaching it for at
>>here in America for at least _20_ years. (many years before the Wandering
>>Taoist came out)
Hua Chuan is fairly recent set of exercises developed by Cai Yun-Long
in the 50's in Mainland China. Cai was basically a Wushu performance
coach (probably in his 80's or 90's now). Nobody really took him
seriously. Many opera acrobats found Hua Chuan practically for
performance purposes because of its extended, exaggerated motions.
>
>Oh, You do not need to read that book to know about Hua Shan. It is a very
>famous mountain especially for Taoists. Your question is very much like asking
That is another legend - about Chen Po and the Song emperor. Legends
say that Chen was a Taoist and eventually reached enlightenment and
went to heaven (not by expiring physically, but literally levitating
himself.) More traditional accounts portrait Chen as a shrewd,
pragmatic political strategist. AMong the more well known writings
attributed to Chen was the "zi yuan pian (Direction to Origin)".
If you can read Classical Chinese, many of the legends about
Chen Po and Hua Shan can be resolved.
>an Australian whether he knows about Ayers Rock. I decline to answer that
>question. And that Elvis Presly knew about it before Paul Hogan came out with
>the movie "Crocodile Dundie".
>
>
>> Now, some reputable teachers, as they come over to America, teach
It is also very interesting that many of these teachers become
reputable only after they came to the US.
Regards,
Tak
Fu-chen Yang
snip
>Truely, no offense intended. If I intended to offend you I would. I
>don't. I've had the displeasure of people who claimed to know
>"hundreds" of forms, and they generally did none of them well. I am
>merely skeptical. If you are that thurough in your training, which is
>twice as intense as my own, I humbly admit
>(and the question "Does he sleep?" comes to mind), then you should not be
>offended by my asking a few questions.
>I simply wanted to know if it was true.
>Peace,
>Jeff
It's a very good point, IMHO, when someone has reached a very high level in
MA, he must have a main trunk/school/style of technology, which made him
coming being to such establishment... and there is no doubt that such advanced
masters can cross train some other systems and advance faster than some one
new to the systems... but IMHO, kungfu needs to be nurtured, maintained and
polished even after being achieved, otherwise, it's going to fade with time...
thus in the time and personal energy sides, there is a good doubt that someone
can really master that many systems to the same high level, not even to
mention the compatibilities of different kungfa and principles among those
systems...
jychow
I appreciate your judgement that Shaolin-Do is very good - that is not the
point of my doubt at all. What I disagree with is the stories woven around it
are not 100% accurate.
As for your statement that Chinese martial arts are illegal in Malaysia, that
is also not true. As a former Malaysia citizen, I must explicitly deny this as
wrong information. Chinese martial arts have NEVER been banned in Malaysia.
If you doubt my statement, please contact your local Malaysia Embassy/Consulate
for verification. Actually, the local Shaolin group in my town operates next
to the bus terminal which is just a few hundred yards from the Police Station.
Illegal????
This is what I mean by inaccuracies. I am not talking about abilities.
Please do not be offended.
The situation in Indonesia is a bit different - the Chinese had a harder time
because the government of Suharto managed to stir up the locals into believing
that Chinese are communist ("Cinak kommunis!") and linked them with Sukarno.
The Chinese were persecuted at both governmental and social levels. They were
not allowed to keep their own surnames, so some of them sneaked their surnames
back. eg. Tan became Suntandry. It was not very safe to openly practise
Chinese martial arts. This is provocative. Yes, many changed their styles
and incoporated Japanese forms in an exterior fashion - a camoflouge.
The master Tang (Chang) Chun Fu - possibly deceased by now - was one of those
more stubborn ones. I have heard that he had clashes with the Indonesians. He
later moved to Malaysia and eventually settled in Sabah, where I came from.
Master Tang is well known for his White Crane, Tai Chi and Chi Kung.
You see, I am a very "staunch" Chinese, very much into my own culture. Plus I
also came from that general area that you are talking about. That is why I
can spot inaccuracies immediately! I would say that many, if not most of the
statements are true, but there are inaccuracies and wrong interpretations in
them, so twisting the direction and thrust of the steatements into wrong
statements. Let me give you an anology. PersonA was seen arguing with
PersonB. He infact threatened PersonB physically. PersonB was murdered that
very night. PersonA has no alibi, and was seen in the vicinity of PersonB's
house. Now, any person relating this account, may, in an endeavour to
impress the audience, or to get the audience's attention, add more spice to it
- just a little more spice, not much, and suddenly PersonA is in very, very hot
soup. It was possible he did not kill PersonB. It is also very possible
that he in fact went to see PersonB to sort it out and in fact did sort it out
amiably. But because of our story-telling, he is in trouble. The audience
cannot but help harbour doubts whether he is innocent - ever. Get my drift?
All it needs is a small twist - the truth is gone forever.
Plus, you must know, when stories pass from ear to ear, they get distorted.
I don't need to tell you that. In addition, you must understand there are
cultural factors involved, and language barriers.
Taht is why I say, I am not debunking the ability. I am just disagreeing with
the accounts because of my background.
Now, our friend, Travor has replied to my posting. It is a bit too long and
involved at this stage to reply. I can and definitely have ready replies to
him, but it is already late (nearly 11pm in Melbourne) and actually I was
working on customer site and came back to the office to sort some things out.
I will be away for 4 weeks, so please send my apologies to him. But, in
brief, my reply is still the same - inaccuracies, does not tally with widely
known facts, and not verifiable. (eg. Of course I am aware of the SUPPOSED
existence of SUPPOSEDLY Shaolin Temples in different provinces and their
SUPPOSED destruction. But I have mixed with many old monks and I conclude
there is only FABLE and FANTASY of the Shaolin Temples. The old monk I
refered to is actually from Fukkien Province, by the way!!!!!!! Born in 1900.
By the way, most temples keep records. So I don't care which temple it is
that your masters came from - there are records there. "Records are
lost/burnt" should not be an excuse. Fukkien Temple - which? Name please!
Each temple has a name. If you deny it is the Shaolin Temple in Fukkien (a
fable also???), you must still be able to supply a name.
Okay, I need to go home.
Kind regards,
John Chow
jychow
a bit short, okay?
*********
>>Maybe you should ask Grandmaster Chi Kim Tong (and his student Master Yap
Cheng Hai) of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for a more accurate account.
>Who? Grandmaster of what, by the way?
Chee Kim Tong is a grandmaster of the Wu Chu (Go Cho) or 5 Ancestors Style.
That is very Shaolin. He is perhaps one of the last living grandmasters of
this style. Yap Cheng Hai is his senior student. Both are very knowledgeable
in martial arts and history of martial arts. Master Yap is a very profound
scholar of martial arts as well as Chinese classics. It would be very worth
your while to interview him for any matters of doubt. You would have seen 1
or 2 articles in martial arts magazine about them. I recall one called
something like "The Perfect Master". Note: I am not a student of Master Chee
- article must have been written by a very ardent admirer.
>>Does your grandmaster know grandmaster Tang Chun Hu (ie. Chang Chun Fu)?
>I don't know. I could ask him next time I see him. :)
Please do! He MUST know him. I have lost news of master Tang (the Iron
Tiger) as I left Sabah long ago. He is well known for his White Crane, Tai
Chi and Iron Palm Medicine. Some called him "King of the Pole". He was
known to have defended some Chinese from a marauding Indonesian mob with a pole
across a bridge. I fear master Tang/Chang may have already passed away. If
he were alive, he would be in his late 80's, if not early 90's. A loss for
us!
>>Does you grandmaster have the documentary and photographic prove of his
>>history there?
> His family still lives there, and our school has done trips
>to Bandung to meet his family and students who learned with him from
>Master yi. I have seen photographs of master yi and master su, and
>actually possess a copy of the latter.
What I meant was for you to research into his history there. What he taught
exactly. Verify his story with independent local masters of the region. Can
they confirm what master Su taught, and does that exactly tally with your
current sylabus? You must gather such evidence.
I did not mean evidence that he actually lived there! Of course he does - I
never doubted that.
Okay, let me clarify. I am a Buddhist, okay? I have studied "high & low" on
this subject, and I have met and studied under some of the highest monks.
Okay.
But then, to spread my teaching for the benefit of people, I say that I am the
successor to the, say, Dalai Lama, and that the Dalai Lama gave me various
secret teachings, and entrusted me to pass them on at a "suitable time". I
also claim that I have been empowered by the heads of various Buddhist sects
to perform this and that ceremonies. Further, I have received the conferal of
the precious Vajra Hat of Padma Sambhava and was advised by such and such old
lama that I am to continue the propagation of the religion and I can start a
new movement and sect to do that.
Nice story? Yes! But where is the proof? Hah! I pull out a photo of me
with the Dalai Lama in a very friendly pose. There is another one with me
kneeling before him - I say this one was taken when he staed I would be a
bright star in future. I pull out a photo of me with the Vajra Hat and my old
lama standing beside me. Whao! I pull out nice letters from them exhorting
me to practise and spread the faith. Well to a person who wants to believe,
we really thing everything I claim is entirely true!!!!!
No! Where is the real proof? I have the precious teaching? What are the
teachings. Recite that out please? Who gave that to you? Okay, I will go
and ask that person or his office whether that is true. I would want to know
whether you were there at that time you claim you were there. Proof, proof!
Just because you were pictured with the Vajra Hat besides your old teacher does
not mean you were coronated....etc and all that shit talk. You may have just
participated in a ceremony that requires it, and then took a photo for "memory
sake". I want proof - ask the bastard of the old lama for confirmation. If
he is already dead, ask his students! Confirm the sory is really so. I do
not mean to confirm that this scene of the photo is true. I mean confirm that
I was coronated with that and made a Vajra Master to be a real, real big shot!
I hope you get my drift. I think we must know how to do research, otherwise,
we either get conned or misinterpret things told to us.
As to why I refered to the above, is I know of certain peple who have taken
that exact route. I have been in such ceremonies, and so I know what really
happened - NOT THAT EXTENDED VERSION. Such extended stories have a lot of
truth, but a little addition spoiled the whole broth!
>>Traditionally, we say that 5 monks escape the demise of the Shaolin temple.
> Which temple are you referring to? Honan or fujian?
>Remember, fujian temple is not to be confused with shaolin, although there
>was significant interaction.
Gossip say that 5 monks escaped the Shaolin Temple. It is believed to refer
to the Honan one because that is the only one that we can find. It was thought
that Shaolin Temple existed in other provinces, like Fukkien, but research and
searches failed to locate them so it was concluded that these are just mere
gossip. Some Kung Fu people belived there was a Fukkien branch of the Shaolin
Temple, but searches failed to find any evidence of it.
Whatever the case, your grandmaster's name is not one of the 5 monks -
whichever Shaolin Temple that the story relates to.
You must realise that this story is a very popular theme, and many martial arts
schools try to trace themselves to some escapees from Shaolin Temple, whichever
is the one - Honan or Fukkien. Wing Chun also does that - supposedly a nun
call Ng Moi. The 5 Ancestor Style also. Hung Style also. Fut Style also.
Lohan also. In other words, so many of them claim similar stories. In fact,
they altimately traced themselves to Tamo (Bodhidharma) - that poor chap who
came to teach meditation and his teaching got so famous that everybody wanted
to claim that his martial arts came from him. Poor guy! He only taught
some nice yoga for strenghtening the body system, and all Kung Fu tried to jump
on the bandwagon by latching on to his fame. I pity that poor bastard.
>Your grandmaster's name is not amongst the list.
What list???
Well, that is very obvious. There are only 5 monks. Their name are known,
but none of the 5 names match your grandmaster's. Don't ask me what list, as
if there is a certificate from the temple to certify that this so and so
escaped. There is no such physical list. It is just tradition which says
these 5 chaps did it.
Let me try to be less esoteric. Say, 5 Australians got the Victoria Cross
from the Queen for bravery in WW2. Then, your Australian uncle, who went to
the war also, and is known to be a very brave soldier, and is very
stron........etc, says that he got the Victoria Cross. He shows some pictures
around with him wearing some gorgeous medals, and him in the war.....etc and
your cousins and friends who have never ever been to the war really believed
it. But you are wiser. You know that only 5 Aussies got it and your
uncle's name is not one of one the list. I would be very taken back if I were
asked "What list?".
Well, that 5 names I am talking about! Perhaps I was not clear on this,
sorry, but I thought it was obvious.
>>Tai Chi, Chen Style Tai Chi. Actually, Yang and Chen Style only came out of
>>obcurity into Peking (Beijing) about 150 years ago. How come it was
>>practised in Shaolin Temple?
> Because they saw value in it? Do you dispute that the monks
>brought knowledge from outside the temple back with them? Do you dispute
>that certain monks (especially of the wudang temple) practised taiji, xingyi
>and bagua?
Yes, I do!!!!! As a practising and very serious Buddhist, i dispute this.
This does not happen in the said temples - even the Shaolin Temple of Honan
which is the only Shaolin Temple we can prove to have existed. These are
actually monasteries of the Chan Sect - they pray and meditate there, not
practise Kung Fu. The monastery was not set up as a Kung Fu place - please get
this straight. What is causing the confusion is that sometimes, there are
fugitives from the law, or retired soldiers, who, obviously have a martial
background, came to dseek refuge at the monastery (or the many hundreds of
monasteries). They shaved their heads and became monks - by doing so, they
disguised themselves (I mean the fugitives) and escaped easy recognition.
Now, of course some of them were not really there for the spiritually side -
they just wanted to make use of the monastic cover. So, in spite of having to
do all the Buddhist discipline, they still try to practise Kung Fu on the side
when the head monks are not able to see them. Occassionally, sometimes the
monasteries need some sort of guards or bouncers, and the administrators would
assign that role to such people.
Well, that is how Kung Fu get to be practised there. That is never the main
curriculum. I dispute that!!!! It is like some catholic monasteries were
famous for their wines and many monks/priest used to drink. But how can you
equate the monasteries to Pubs and the monks there as drunkards!!!!! This is
not what the monastery was made for and is not the principal focus.
Similarly, Kung Fu was never ever the principal focus in Chinese temples -
whether Buddhist or Taoist.
> Have you ever read the story of the Wandering Taoist? (yes,
>I know, it's more fantasy reading than history)
Yes, I have. It is fantasy in many parts. I regret it has given people
ideas.
> Do you know about huashan mountain, where the fist of hua mountain set
>originates from? Do you know that until recently, few had heard of
>it, yet now, aside from Master The', who has been teaching it for at
>here in America for at least _20_ years. (many years before the Wandering
>Taoist came out)
Oh, You do not need to read that book to know about Hua Shan. It is a very
famous mountain especially for Taoists. Your question is very much like asking
an Australian whether he knows about Ayers Rock. I decline to answer that
question. And that Elvis Presly knew about it before Paul Hogan came out with
the movie "Crocodile Dundie".
> Now, some reputable teachers, as they come over to America, teach
>this style, Zhang Luping, I believe, being one of them.
I do not know this style, but how is that relevant to the discussion? I am
contesting the accuracy and interpretation of stories thrown around in the
West. I am not trying to judge whether a person knows a style and how good he
is.
>He was teaching 8 drunken immortals before people say it was created
>as a Wushu style.
Sorry , the 8 Drunken Immortals or the Drunken Style was never created as a
Wu Shu Style. It existed for hundreds of years and was almost lost.
There are practitioners of it in various Chinese communities across the world.
Actually, Master Chee Kim Tong is a holder of very authentic Drunken Style.
I don't see the big deal.
>I've seen spear and sword sets supposedly created by
>the Communist government in the late 1960's that are identical in sequence
>(except for a small section at the end) that he was teaching before
>that time.
Okay, here is where I , regretably have to sound a bit offensive, so please
forgive me. Wu Shu routines are a completely new thing. Very different from
the old classical stuff. If your forms are very close to Wu Shu routines (you
say "identical in sequence, except....", then your forms must have a more
recent history than you think - ie. some of them.
Look, can I continue next few days please? It is nearly 1 am and I am still
inthe office.
Bye for now
John Chow
Tye W. Botting
%don't. I've had the displeasure of people who claimed to know
%"hundreds" of forms, and they generally did none of them well. I am
We must know some of the same people, then. I've seen the same
thing, and it makes me sick while at the same time spurs me on
to work even harder.
%merely skeptical. If you are that thurough in your training, which is
%twice as intense as my own, I humbly admit
%(and the question "Does he sleep?" comes to mind),
More like, "Does he work on his research like he's supposed to?"
The answer would be a resounding "No" - it'll probably take me
twice as long to earn my PhD as it should, due to the fact that
I use my research assistantship to support my kung fu habit. ;-)
%then you should not be
%offended by my asking a few questions.
Probably I'm a bit touchy on this issue, as I try to take my
training very seriously. Trouble is, of late I've had to back
off a little on the training, and it's getting on my nerves.
Sorry if my response came over a little strong - my kung fu is
very important to me.
Tye Botting |
t...@pro-haven.cts.com | If you have ghosts,
bot...@leper.tamu.edu | you have everything.
|
N.Shaolin/N.Praying Mantis | - Roky Erikson and the Aliens
Taijiquan & Modern Arnis |
#07
Sari Stiles
Hi again y'all... my turn to be a geekette...
>>Nice story? Yes! But where is the proof? Hah! I pull out a photo of me
>>with the Dalai Lama in a very friendly pose. There is another one with me
doesn't mean he KNOWS you or is a friend of yours or that you are his
student. He sees almost everyone who requests to see him, and he gets
photographed an awful lot...
> Buddhist monk, who was friendly with Dalai. Personally, I think
Dalai is a title, as in THE Dalai Lama, not a name... since it is being used
in this paragraph like a name it is safe to assume that the poster knows
SQUAT about the guy, and most likely hasn't so much as been to one of his
talks or read one of his books. In which case probably isn't really
qualified to judge whether he is a spiritual leader OR a figurehead.
> figure head than a spiritual leader. Western people have such
government happy...
> misconceptions about religions and culture of the Far East - they
> like to believe what seem obvious, and easily fitted into their
But this does not describe the folks who aren't "Oriental
Romanticists" and ARE Buddhists. (nevermind race or variety...)
also just a quick bit of easy "detective" work.
HHthe Dalai Lama's rosary is NOT amber.
and the idea of giving away beads from a rosary is also from thin
air, it wouldn't happen.
> many people today think they can obtain enlightment from a local
> kung fu school. This is in fact a very interesting approach to
probably, the kung fu was a "secondary" or "parallel" practice, as TaMo is
also credited as the patriarch of the Ch'an/Zen lineages.
Likewise on the kung fu part of the thread...
yes, it is VERY interesting how suddenly someone gets to be
reputable when they come to the US to be a teacher. (and that covers both
Kungfu and religion...)
Travis Archer
> How? - Lots of practice and lots of interest.
> Why? - Lots of interest.
Exactly! :)
> As I told someone else in e-mail, this much material is *not*
> required in my style;
Same here! :)
> ...and because I find it helps my original material.
Of course! :)
> The more forms I have to dissect and analyze, the
> easier applications come to me, at the expense of making the
> perfection of their performance harder to maintain, simply due
> to the amount of material.
Bingo! :)
> I take this into account, and devote more and more time, as I
> get more material.
Just what I do. :)
> Hmmm, I don't know about you, but once I learn a form, I keep
> working it, rotating through my material, searching for new and
> better applications, bettering my performance of it, etc, etc.
> Working each form a number of times, a number of ways, it takes
> me about a week to rotate through all my material to my satisfaction.
Same here, although I have less forms to practice. But I like
to practice a form at least 7-10 times in a session, in various ways,
which takes a while.
> The idea that two months and then you're done with a form is
> patently ridiculous. I'm still working on those first forms I
> learned my first year, in addition to the more recent ones I
> learned this year. One actually can be learning new material,
> while perfecting older material at the same, even if it consists
> of multiple forms. *GASP*! Imagine that! Say it isn't so!
I couldn't have said it better.
> Now, if we're talking MASTERING a form, well, I'll gladly admit
> that I haven't mastered even the most basic one of them - I'm
> still finding throws, locks, breaks, etc. in our most basic
> form.
Likewise.
> ...to make the point that someone who *was* remarkable, *could*
> indeed do what they say Sin Kwang The' has done with regard to
> the number of forms he knows. Nothing is impossible.
He does _remember_ that many. The amount, in total, that he practices
frequently is probably far less, for obvious reasons. With 18 crane forms,
for example, you'll find that 1 of the advanced sets contains just about
everything from, say, 5 basic ones.
Which means that without practicing the basic ones at all, you can
actually get better at them. And even if the forms in question are totally
non-similar, I maintain that there isn't anything of value you can learn that
doesn't round you out and improve your general skill in some way. If you can
spin a 3-sectional well, a staff is easy. If you can handle a spear well, a
tapering staff is easy.
You learn the easy ones first to prepare you, and the advanced ones
almost replace the basic ones. This does not mean I don't practice the basic
ones. What seemed like a long form when I was a beginner is incredibly short
to me now. I can practice my basic crane, tiger, lohan and weapons many
times over in the time it takes me to practice bagua once. :)
Same for taiji.
Learning a good variety of forms makes it much easier to see and use
application, even without being shown it.
Learning and practicing bagua has improved my push-hands immensely.
Learning a good variety of forms subjects you to so many ways of
moving, attacking and defending that you eventually can "flow" into technique,
no matter what the situation. Of course, this requires consistent application
training and practice, as does everything.
I'm not saying it's the best way, but I'm saying it's a valid way.
Plus, I like forms. Even ones with what I consider limited application can
be fun to practice and be challenging physically. 8 Drunken Immortals is
a great example.
There are lots of moves which are extremely difficult, require great
balance, strength and coordination. Just because the techniques aren't
necessarily practical doesn't mean that practicing them won't improve your
health, conditioning and fighting ability.
On the other hand, I have seen more than a few students drop out
because they thought there was too much to remember. Often, they didn't
practice enough, or were in a hurry. Eventually, it all becomes second nature.
Learning a new form is a hundred times easier when you _already know_
(and can perform well) all the basic pieces.
I know a woman who teaches a basics class at the local aikikai who
joined our school for a time and dropped out because there was too much
to remember. This was after learning 4 or 5 short easy forms. The
amount of material I know is on a level orders of magnitude greater, and
yet somehow I have no trouble remembering it. She has all kinds of
aikido techniques memorized, yet she claims what she learned at basic
levels here was too much to remember. I'm _certain_ she knew more from
Aikido, so it's really a matter of her body/brain not adjusting to the
learning/memory of our forms. Maybe it's too much for some people, but
it works for me.
Tye said most of it better than I, but I had to throw my copper in
anyway.
Travis
Travis Archer
>As for your statement that Chinese martial arts are illegal in Malaysia, that
>is also not true. As a former Malaysia citizen, I must explicitly deny this
> as wrong information.
>Chinese martial arts have NEVER been banned in Malaysia.
I was talking about Indonesia. Forgive my ignorance if they are
the same place. And I must emphasize that I have talked to students of
other chinese styles whose lineage went through Indonesia at some point
who told a similar story of having to hide their Chinese art.
I doubt this situation is true anymore, but who knows?
>Yes, many changed their styles and incoporated Japanese forms in an exterior
>fashion - a camoflouge.
Like the Ippon Kumite, as I said. This further supports the dan/kyu
rankings, calling it shaolin-do karate, etc.
>Plus, you must know, when stories pass from ear to ear, they get distorted.
This is probably the case with information I give. Understand that
inaccuracies may stem from my version of events, not the version Master
Sin tells.
>Now, our friend, Travor has replied to my posting.
That's me - TRAVOR, King of the Jungle! (Travis, but no biggie) :)
>is a bit too long and
>involved at this stage to reply.
Hey! I can't believe you said anything I wrote was long and involved!
I am never long-winded! :)
>If you deny it is the Shaolin Temple in Fukkien (a
>fable also???), you must still be able to supply a name.
I do not deny it was the fujian shaolin temple, if such a place
existed. I believe that is the temple. If it didn't exist, there'd be a
_WHOLE_ lot of gongfu practitioners (Hung Gar, others) who would suddenly
cease to exist. :)
I've had confirmation from many practitioners whose styles supposedly
originate from the shaolin temple in fujian that the temple was burned
down in sometime between the 16-18th century, rebuilt and burned down again
in the late 1800's-early 1900's.
>Kind regards,
>John Chow
The same...
Travis
(I fear my post may be wasted, certainly it will not be present when he
JC returns)
Travis Archer
>>>Traditionally, we say that 5 monks escape the demise of the Shaolin temple.
>> Which temple are you referring to? Honan or fujian?
>>Remember, fujian temple is not to be confused with shaolin, although there
>>was significant interaction.
>Gossip say that 5 monks escaped the Shaolin Temple. It is believed to refer
>to the Honan one because that is the only one that we can find. It was thought
>that Shaolin Temple existed in other provinces, like Fukkien, but research and
>searches failed to locate them so it was concluded that these are just mere
>gossip. Some Kung Fu people belived there was a Fukkien branch of the Shaolin
>Temple, but searches failed to find any evidence of it.
>Whatever the case, your grandmaster's name is not one of the 5 monks -
>whichever Shaolin Temple that the story relates to.
I realize what you're discussing now. I recognize the story
you're referring to. That was hundreds of years before the relevant people
were born, and again, I'm referring to fujian.
>Wing Chun also does that - supposedly a nun
>call Ng Moi.
Here's my point. The Wing Chun story is arguably unverifiable.
Does this make Wing Chun (or Wing Tsun for that matter) not a valid art?
Surely you're not challenging their lineage? :)
>5 Ancestor Style also. Hung Style also. Fut Style also.
>Lohan also. In other words, so many of them claim similar stories. In fact,
>they altimately traced themselves to Tamo (Bodhidharma) - that poor chap who
>came to teach meditation and his teaching got so famous that everybody wanted
>to claim that his martial arts came from him. Poor guy! He only taught
>some nice yoga for strenghtening the body system, and all Kung Fu tried to jump
>on the bandwagon by latching on to his fame. I pity that poor bastard.
>So, in spite of having to do all the Buddhist discipline, they still try to
>practise Kung Fu on the side when the head monks are not able to see them.
>Occassionally, sometimes the monasteries need some sort of guards or
>bouncers, and the administrators would
>assign that role to such people.
I'm quite frankly amazed that you think martial arts were not an
integral part of the Shaolin Temple.
>Similarly, Kung Fu was never ever the principal focus in Chinese temples -
>whether Buddhist or Taoist.
Principal focus? Maybe it was for some monks, while other monks
were only there for religious study. But surely it played a great role.
The hall of figures is proof of that.
>>He was teaching 8 drunken immortals before people say it was created
>>as a Wushu style.
>Sorry , the 8 Drunken Immortals or the Drunken Style was never created as a
>Wu Shu Style. It existed for hundreds of years and was almost lost.
Exactly, but there are those who say it never existed until as
recently as the 80's, when it was created as contemporary wushu. Some
even say that it was based on a popular movie!
I don't know why you say sorry, I was agreeing with your above
statement.
Travis
Tak Y Wong
>From article <DDD52...@world.std.com>, by info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong):
>Hi again y'all... my turn to be a geekette...
>> I have an amber bead from Dalai's rosary, given to me by a
>> Buddhist monk, who was friendly with Dalai. Personally, I think
>sorry, this is a little bit I DO know something about, ask Quark...
>Dalai is a title, as in THE Dalai Lama, not a name... since it is being used
>in this paragraph like a name it is safe to assume that the poster knows
In all the current Chinese literatures, including newspapers,
books, announcements, etc., we always use Dalai and BanChan to
refer to the more well-known TIbetan monks. The lamas all have
their own names - long and tedious to memorize, and very seldomly
used because Dalai and BanChan are more easily to be recognize.
>SQUAT about the guy, and most likely hasn't so much as been to one of his
>talks or read one of his books. In which case probably isn't really
>qualified to judge whether he is a spiritual leader OR a figurehead.
>> figure head than a spiritual leader. Western people have such
>and some of the statement sounds like trying to keep the communist
>government happy...
I myself am the most outspoken opponent of Mainland Chinese
Communism I have ever known. If I were anti-Dalai, my
religious friend would not have given the bead to me, a personal
gift from Dalai. My friend is the head of "Thousand Lotus"
Sect, a combination of Chan and Tibetan practices, in Hong Kong.
He was among the religious leaders who received the Pope, when
he visited Hong Kong. I have often offered my own critique on
Buddhist practices in our private conversations, and my friend,
being a Buddhist himself, seems to be a lot more tolerant and
receptive to eclectic opinions than the readers of this newsgroup.
>that DOES apply to many of the New Age crowd...
> But this does not describe the folks who aren't "Oriental
>Romanticists" and ARE Buddhists. (nevermind race or variety...)
>
>also just a quick bit of easy "detective" work.
> HHthe Dalai Lama's rosary is NOT amber.
Maybe my friend did not tell me the truth. For what it's worth,
I don't even remember where I put it. It was just a keepsake
for my friendship with the monk.
> and the idea of giving away beads from a rosary is also from thin
>air, it wouldn't happen.
OK. So be it.
>> many people today think they can obtain enlightment from a local
>> kung fu school. This is in fact a very interesting approach to
>probably, the kung fu was a "secondary" or "parallel" practice, as TaMo is
>also credited as the patriarch of the Ch'an/Zen lineages.
>
Again, so be it.
Regards,
Tak
Sari Stiles
> books, announcements, etc., we always use Dalai and BanChan to
> refer to the more well-known TIbetan monks. The lamas all have
merely "Dalai" is percieved by Tibetans and Vajrayana practitioners as ...
rude.
It's much more common to say or see him called "The Dalai Lama" and
you only type two extra words, but the Connotation, is much more civil.
(Connotation and Denotation can cause all kinds of problems, like
accidentally inferring something you don't mean at all!)
> I myself am the most outspoken opponent of Mainland Chinese
> Communism I have ever known.
therefore easily mispercieved as "propaganda" based. They are commonly
claiming that he's "just a figurehead" where as people who have been in
actual contact with him never do.
> Buddhist practices in our private conversations, and my friend,
> being a Buddhist himself, seems to be a lot more tolerant and
> receptive to eclectic opinions than the readers of this newsgroup.
have come in and said "uuuhhh wait a minute..." just the same way I did. (ok
I admit I'd have PROBABLY been a wee bit gentler in that forum but not by
much...)
secondly, maybe you misunderstood your monk friend. possibly the
bead is from some other lama, but HHthe Dalai Lama does not use or take
beads from an amber mala. The idea of ANYONE taking apart a mala, is rather
disturbing. Sometimes through use they break, but then they are handled
very carefully and repaired. Concecrated items should not be broken into
pieces for any reason.
> Maybe my friend did not tell me the truth. For what it's worth,
> I don't even remember where I put it. It was just a keepsake
> for my friendship with the monk.
>>air, it wouldn't happen.
people with "this or that" from the Dalai Lama, and haven't a clue about him
or Vajrayana... (especially when I see them expressing shock at yogurt in my
lunch!)
Tak Y Wong
>From article <DDDJv...@world.std.com>, by info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong):
>> books, announcements, etc., we always use Dalai and BanChan to
>> refer to the more well-known TIbetan monks. The lamas all have
>Ok, just in English this is generally not done, and refering to him as
>merely "Dalai" is percieved by Tibetans and Vajrayana practitioners as ...
>rude.
> It's much more common to say or see him called "The Dalai Lama" and
>you only type two extra words, but the Connotation, is much more civil.
>(Connotation and Denotation can cause all kinds of problems, like
>accidentally inferring something you don't mean at all!)
As many with a PhD degree often take offense if others do not
address them as Dr. XXXX.
>> I myself am the most outspoken opponent of Mainland Chinese
>> Communism I have ever known.
>Unfortuately your phrasing sounds exactly like PRC press releases...
>therefore easily mispercieved as "propaganda" based. They are commonly
>claiming that he's "just a figurehead" where as people who have been in
>actual contact with him never do.
My opposition to Communism does not mean I have to embody
everything anti-Communists believe. You maybe surprised that
there are actually many political factions in Tibet, and not
every Tibetan approves of Dalai Lama. For what it worth, the
conflict between Dalai and BanChan is well known. Many
Tibetans, especially former slaves, actually believe they
have a better life under the Communist regime than the
previous government, where the priviledged class (lamas among
them) ruled. But this is not a simple issue that could be
analyzed and understood in a forum like this. So, I will just
leave it at that.
>> Buddhist practices in our private conversations, and my friend,
>> being a Buddhist himself, seems to be a lot more tolerant and
>> receptive to eclectic opinions than the readers of this newsgroup.
>well, if you'd posted this on alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan people would
>have come in and said "uuuhhh wait a minute..." just the same way I did. (ok
Some Tibetan people, not all. The former nobles and priviledged
class, of course, do not like the present state of affairs. WHen
it comes to religion and politics, you cannot take the opinions
of those directly involved too seriously - they are hardly
objective.
>I admit I'd have PROBABLY been a wee bit gentler in that forum but not by
>much...)
> secondly, maybe you misunderstood your monk friend. possibly the
>bead is from some other lama, but HHthe Dalai Lama does not use or take
>beads from an amber mala. The idea of ANYONE taking apart a mala, is rather
>disturbing. Sometimes through use they break, but then they are handled
>very carefully and repaired. Concecrated items should not be broken into
>pieces for any reason.
I think you misunderstood... My friend is actually older than
Dalai and was invited by his group to a religious ceremony
in India in the mid-80's. Look into the history of Reverend Tai
Kong of Hong Kong and his teacher, Tan Xu, of the Tian-Tai
School in China. Tai Kong also visited Tibet in the early
80's and was warmly received by the folks there. He told me
the livelihood has much improved from decades ago. When I
met him in 1984, he was 68 years old. So he should be nearly
80 by now. He and Dalai are considered peers, by their
respective followers. I have to admit I am not a religious
person, even though I studied the history and philosophy of
Buddhism. Since you seem to be so sure of your information,
I have to assume that Tai Kong did not tell me the truth.
>> Maybe my friend did not tell me the truth. For what it's worth,
>> I don't even remember where I put it. It was just a keepsake
>> for my friendship with the monk.
>Then why bring it into the posting?
>>>air, it wouldn't happen.
John Chow posted a facetious scenerio where he attended a
ceremony and took a picture with the Dalai Lama, and then
he suggested that he could claim that he was the designated
receiver of the holy scriptures. My posting was a followup
to the joke.
> in the category of "unthinkable"...and I keep running into New Age
>people with "this or that" from the Dalai Lama, and haven't a clue about him
>or Vajrayana... (especially when I see them expressing shock at yogurt in my
>lunch!)
Perhaps you, are actually the designated bearer of Buddhist
wisdom.
Tak
>
Tak Y Wong
Travis Archer <arc...@benji.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
><jychow> writes:
>
>>>He was teaching 8 drunken immortals before people say it was created
>>>as a Wushu style.
>
>>Sorry , the 8 Drunken Immortals or the Drunken Style was never created as a
>>Wu Shu Style. It existed for hundreds of years and was almost lost.
>
>recently as the 80's, when it was created as contemporary wushu. Some
Can someone please point out just one single reference to a
person or a school that specialize in "Drunken Styles" before
1940? People can come up with tons of references for other
systems: TaiJi (Yang LuCan, Chen Chang-Hsing,..), XingYi (Yue
Fei, Guo Yun-Shen, Li Luo-Neng...), Praying Mantis (Wang Lang,
Liu Sui..), Ba Chuan (Lo Da-Ke, Yan Yong-Fu), Hung Gar (Hung
Hsi-Guan, Huang Fei-Hong...), Wing Chun (Liang Jian, Huang
Hua-Bao...), etc. But no one can tell me who of what school
was the "master of Drunken Fist" before the second half of
this century. (The characters played by Jackie Chan and Jet
Li don't count). I am even willing to accept characters from
folklores such as Wu Song or Lu Zi-Shen, but please point out
one complete sentence in the novel "Water Margin" where there is
a reference to "Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals". I
think many Chinese scholars and Sinologists will be interested
as well. Personally, I think the "18 Dragon Taming Palms"
is even more credible than the Drunken Fist - the style is
described in almost all of Jin Yong's novels.
Again, I want just 1 reference, that shows that "Drunken Style"
did exist before 1940 as a complete system, or someone who
specialized in it.
Tak
>
> Travis
>
David Lee Montgomery
good a time as any to jump into the discussion.
I'm a student of Master Grooms in Atlanta and I thought he'd be interested in
the discussion going on here (seeing as how the subject of this thread is
"Chinese Shaolin Center / Sin The' / Atlanta"). I printed the articles so
that he could read firsthand what was being said. He in turn copied the
articles and sent them to Grand Master The'. Master Grooms and Grand
Master The' then discussed the articles and Master Grooms gave me a
synopsis of their thoughts. I'm going to try and relay their thoughts as best
I can and add in my own $.02.
First, Travis Archer wrote that he has "heard" that Master Grooms runs a
money-oriented (whatever that means) school here in Atlanta. Mr. Archer even
states that this is only heresay as far as he knows. Well, if it's only
heresay, then why mention it? Putting such a comment in a post only shows
ignorance and disrespect for the system. I'm a student of Master Grooms and
I can assure everyone that he doesn't run a "money-oriented" school. Sure,
he charges fees for instruction but that's the way it works. I'm sure that even
in ancient times, the student paid the teacher. Whether it be with money,
meat, vegtables, some type of servitude, etc.
The list Mr. Archer gives for advancement to 5th degree black belt is mostly
acurate except for the fact that it leaves out a great deal of material.
Master Grooms has given me a list of the forms which were not included in
Mr. Archer's list but this post is going to be long enough without a list so
I'll only mention a few. Included in the list are 3-section staff, 8 animal
Pa Kua, Yeh Fay Spa Kwan, a couple broadsword forms, etc.
Also, Mr. Archer makes mention of a supposed bench pressing contest between
Grand Master The' and Arnold Shwarzenager (sp?). Grand Master The' says that
no such contest ever took place. Arnold did visit Grand Master The's school
and there is a picture of Grand Master The's oldest daughter shaking Arnold's
hand, but there was no bench pressing contest.
To finish the thoughts on Mr. Archer's post, neither Master Grooms nor Grand
Master The' recall the name Travis Archer. Mr. Archer says that he met Master
Grooms when Master Grooms was only fourth degree. Master Grooms has been a
Master (5th degree) for approximately four years. If Mr. Archer is as
tuned into the system as he portrays, he should have known by now that
Master Grooms had advanced. Needless to say, Mr. Archer's information is not
completely accurate, so please don't base any views of the Shao-Lin Do system
totally on his information.
Now that that's said, there seemed to be some confusion as to where Grand
Master The' was raised. He was raised and studied Shao-Lin Do in
Indonesia. This is important, as already noted, because it plays a role in
the history of Shao-Lin Do.
The last thing I'd like to say something about pertains to the discussion
that's been going on about the number of forms in the Shao-Lin Do system,
how long it takes to learn a form, etc. The Shao-Lin Do System contains
over 900 forms. Only Grand Master The' knows all of them. In fact, a lot of
the forms haven't even been seen by anybody. I myself know 31 forms and I'm
only a first degree black belt. I'm not saying I know every form perfectly
and can tell you the application of every move but that I know the movements
that make up the form and can get through the form without having to stop in
the middle and figure out what comes next. Some forms I even "learned" in
a day. The difference is between "learning" a form and being able to execute
a form to perfection and knowing every move intricately. I can learn a
form in a day but it takes many hours of practice to perform the form
perfectly, if indeed it's possible to perform a form perfectly. That leads
me to a second point, just because a person's had a form for years doesn't
mean they've practiced it diligently. I could've had a form for 1 year, but
if I only practiced it once a week, then I would've only done it 52 times.
On the other hand, if I practiced the form every day, then I would've done it
365 times. How well a person knows a form isn't related to how long they've
had the form but to how much they've practiced it. If someone asks Master
Grooms how he knows so many forms, his answer is practice, practice, practice.
Judging by Master Grooms' skill, this seems like good advice.
The preceeding ramblings are completely my own thoughts and my attempt to
relay Master Grooms' and Grand Master The's thoughts. In no way should they
be construed as direct quotes from Master Grooms or Grand Master The'. If
anyone wishes to speak directly to Master Grooms, they can e-mail me at
dav...@cc.gatech.edu and I'll send them the phone number to Master Grooms'
school or you can call information for the 770 area code and ask for the number
to the Chinese Shao-Lin Center in Norcross.
My thanks to anyone who managed to read through the entire post.
David Montgomery
--
David Montgomery You can't have everything. Where would you
dav...@cc.gatech.edu put it? -- Steven Wright
Steven Weigand
David Lee Montgomery <dav...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>Now that that's said, there seemed to be some confusion as to where Grand
>Master The' was raised. He was raised and studied Shao-Lin Do in
>Indonesia. This is important, as already noted, because it plays a role in
>the history of Shao-Lin Do.
Just a quick question here... If he was raised in Indonesia, why is his
name Chinese? Or *is* it Chinese? "Sin The'" sounds like Chinese. It
could be Indonesian.
If it is Chinese, then how is that, since everything Chinese in
Indonesia was illegal? I would think he would change his name to something
more Indonesian sounding, like he did with his art and his clothing.
Paul Fernandez
>
>the same place.
I thought Malaysia was also a reference to a general area of the world,
as opposed to the country proper. In other words, the Filipinos were a
malaysian people, as were the Indonesians.
As an aside, the banning of Chinese martial arts in Indonesia coincides
with the overall secretive nature of Indonesian Pentjak Silat, which has
Chinese influence... like the Filipinos, martial arts systems were hidden
in dance forms, kept in families, villages, etc...
Does this mean that Shaolin-do Karate has no Indonesian influence into
it?
Paul Fernandez
Fu-chen Yang
>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>Path: news.ycc.yale.edu!yale!news3.near.net!inmet!news.bu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!world!infotask
>From: info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong)
>Subject: Re: Chinese Shaolin Center / Sin The' / Atlanta
>Message-ID: <DDFqB...@world.std.com>
>Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
>References: <40d8cr$1...@louie.udel.edu> <archert....@benji.Colorado.EDU> <40qcdn$i...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com> <archert....@benji.Colorado.EDU>
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:13:52 GMT
>Lines: 44
>In article <archert....@benji.Colorado.EDU>,
>Travis Archer <arc...@benji.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>><jychow> writes:
>>
>>>>He was teaching 8 drunken immortals before people say it was created
>>>>as a Wushu style.
>>
>>>Sorry , the 8 Drunken Immortals or the Drunken Style was never created as a
>>>Wu Shu Style. It existed for hundreds of years and was almost lost.
>>
>> Exactly, but there are those who say it never existed until as
>>recently as the 80's, when it was created as contemporary wushu. Some
>>even say that it was based on a popular movie!
> Can someone please point out just one single reference to a
> person or a school that specialize in "Drunken Styles" before
> 1940? People can come up with tons of references for other
> systems: TaiJi (Yang LuCan, Chen Chang-Hsing,..), XingYi (Yue
> Fei, Guo Yun-Shen, Li Luo-Neng...), Praying Mantis (Wang Lang,
> Liu Sui..), Ba Chuan (Lo Da-Ke, Yan Yong-Fu), Hung Gar (Hung
> Hsi-Guan, Huang Fei-Hong...), Wing Chun (Liang Jian, Huang
> Hua-Bao...), etc.
First off, I don't practice the "drunken style" , so I am not the right person
to provide the authentic information on the style, and I hope that someone who
carries the authentic knowledge can share it with us here...or you can try to
make a public claim on your point in China, and see if there is someone can
enlighten you with the informaiton...
Again, the fact is that Chinese MA has a long but very unclear history as a
whole... many facts were implicated by the legendary record because the way
the lineage information was passed generation by generation through either
coloquial or uncompleted recording method...
As I mentioned in a previous thread on the " drunken style", many MA system
choose to hide their information from the public, and the chances for a public
releasing is not aboundant, i.e. The Wudang neijia chuan, was recorded only to
the lineage of Huang Bei-Jia and Huang Li-Zhou... and after that there is no
tracable literature... but according to resent publications in some Chinese
magazines, some systems claim the Wudang lineage in the public now( i.e.
Hubei Gong-Jia nan pai, the master was Deng Zhong shan ), another example as I
mentioned was the zi-ran-men MA, we know there were Master Du Xin-Wu and Wan
Lai-Sheng, but Du's master was not even having a real name, we only know he
was addressed as Midget Xu, and no one had ever heared his system
before...like this kind of mysterious legends, the "drunken style" was known
before our time, but because the chance made it unclear to the public doesn't
mean it really doesn't exist... it needs a chance to be released.
, but please point out
> one complete sentence in the novel "Water Margin" where there is
> a reference to "Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals". I
> think many Chinese scholars and Sinologists will be interested
> as well.
Try to read the story in the book, when Wu Song defeated Sun Er-Nian and Zhang
Qing, and Sun wanted to learn the MA from Wu Song, see what Wu Song said about
the art...Just a hint.
> Personally, I think the "18 Dragon Taming Palms"
Yeh, I read about that someone nowadays( real person ) back in China start to
teach that crap as MA now... Are you going to believe in that because he has
the real name?
> Again, I want just 1 reference, that shows that "Drunken Style"
> did exist before 1940 as a complete system, or someone who
> specialized in it.
Like I implicated that you may or may not get the information on your scaled
premise, but it doesn't mean that there was/is no such a system... i.e. No
body sees what kind of forms played by Guan Yu( the person in San Guo) with
the Da dao ( Big blade ), should we as well question his existance at
all... ?
Travis Archer
>To finish the thoughts on Mr. Archer's post, neither Master Grooms nor Grand
>Master The' recall the name Travis Archer.
Funny, Master The' always recalls my name when I see him. But it's
easier to put a name to a face than vice versa. :)
>Mr. Archer says that he met Master
>Grooms when Master Grooms was only fourth degree. Master Grooms has been a
>Master (5th degree) for approximately four years. If Mr. Archer is as
>tuned into the system as he portrays, he should have known by now that
>Master Grooms had advanced.
Of course I was aware he advanced to 5th. However, since 6th is
Master level, and 5th is Associate Master, I was referring to the fact
that I was unaware he had advanced to 6th, which he apparently hasn't,
so never mind. :)
>Needless to say, Mr. Archer's information is not
>completely accurate, so please don't base any views of the Shao-Lin Do system
>totally on his information.
How many times have I said this? :) I used to have a .sig disclaimer
to this effect. And he's right. My information was obviously not correct.
I apologize to Mr. Grooms for any trouble I may have caused him.
In the future I will try not to post hearsay. :)
It's a shame so many rumors fly around dojos and especially that some
of them are presented as fact. Often, when someone I trust and respect tells
me something, (whether it's MA-related or not) I assume they know what
they're talking about. Obviously one must be careful with this.
Travis
Tak Y Wong
Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>In article <DDFqB...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>releasing is not aboundant, i.e. The Wudang neijia chuan, was recorded only to
>the lineage of Huang Bei-Jia and Huang Li-Zhou... and after that there is no
>tracable literature... but according to resent publications in some Chinese
I am not looking for facts, just any kind of reference will do.
The references to Huang Bei-Jia and Huang Li-Zhou are good enough
to serve the purpose that there was a school of practice at
that period of time, albeit that maybe just folklores and entirely
unrelated to the NeiJia systems we come to know today. My point is
"Drunken Style" does not even have folklores like these.
>magazines, some systems claim the Wudang lineage in the public now( i.e.
>Hubei Gong-Jia nan pai, the master was Deng Zhong shan ), another example as I
>mentioned was the zi-ran-men MA, we know there were Master Du Xin-Wu and Wan
>Lai-Sheng, but Du's master was not even having a real name, we only know he
>was addressed as Midget Xu, and no one had ever heared his system
Even the above "suburban legends" indicated that at the very least,
zi-ran-men is not a modern inventions.
These references are good enough for my purposes, as I said I am
willing to accept even folklores and "wild histories". Similar
references, but not made-up ones, to "Drunken Style" will do fine with
me.
>> one complete sentence in the novel "Water Margin" where there is
>> a reference to "Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals". I
>> think many Chinese scholars and Sinologists will be interested
>> as well.
>
>Try to read the story in the book, when Wu Song defeated Sun Er-Nian and Zhang
>Qing, and Sun wanted to learn the MA from Wu Song, see what Wu Song said about
>the art...Just a hint.
Please do not hint, just give everybody the exact references to
"Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals", as most readers do not
even know what "Water Margin" is. There is a single
movement in Taiji called "White Crane Stretches Wings". Is this
proof that Taiji actually was derived from Crane Boxing?
In the Wu Song story, both Sun and Zhang were running a "Dark Shop" -
a high way trap disguised as an inn. Sun prepared some wine laced
with sedatives for Wu. But Wu, after finding some human remains in
the buns served to him, decided to fake that he was overcome by
the wine. When Sun and Zhang tried to tie Wu and his companion
up, Wu sprang up and subdued both of the bandits. Where exactly,
was Drunken Style or Drunken 8 Immortals mentioned? I think this
will take a lot of enthusiatic extrapolation.
>
>
>> Personally, I think the "18 Dragon Taming Palms"
>
>
>Yeh, I read about that someone nowadays( real person ) back in China start to
>teach that crap as MA now... Are you going to believe in that because he has
>the real name?
>
If you are willing to believe that there was a "Drunken Style"
similar to the one that are seen in Wushu performance, why not?
For one thing, based on your argument above, how can you say that
the 18 Dragon Palms is not real?
>
>> Again, I want just 1 reference, that shows that "Drunken Style"
>> did exist before 1940 as a complete system, or someone who
>> specialized in it.
>
>Like I implicated that you may or may not get the information on your scaled
>premise, but it doesn't mean that there was/is no such a system... i.e. No
Does not mean such system exists before modern Wushu, either.
>body sees what kind of forms played by Guan Yu( the person in San Guo) with
>the Da dao ( Big blade ), should we as well question his existance at
>all... ?
Again, I am willing to accept references like that to Da Dao as
proof that there was such a style. Give me a similar reference to
"Drunken Style".
Tak
Fu-chen Yang
>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>In article <DDFqB...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>>releasing is not aboundant, i.e. The Wudang neijia chuan, was recorded only to
>>the lineage of Huang Bei-Jia and Huang Li-Zhou... and after that there is no
>>tracable literature... but according to resent publications in some Chinese
> I am not looking for facts, just any kind of reference will do.
> The references to Huang Bei-Jia and Huang Li-Zhou are good enough
> to serve the purpose that there was a school of practice at
> that period of time, albeit that maybe just folklores and entirely
> unrelated to the NeiJia systems we come to know today. My point is
> "Drunken Style" does not even have folklores like these.
Well, Like I had already mentioned that my information do not represent the
authentic source on this issue, for I personally don't practice the "drunken
system", but from shui-hu ( the Water Marsh ), Wu Song Zhuan( the source I
came cross in my early times ) and the legend of beggar Soo, etc. the style of
8 drunken immortals were mentioned, though these were not the authentic
factual source of the MA information, those book were writen before our time(
far before the Wushu troopes compiled the new taolus )...
>>magazines, some systems claim the Wudang lineage in the public now( i.e.
>>Hubei Gong-Jia nan pai, the master was Deng Zhong shan ), another example as I
>>mentioned was the zi-ran-men MA, we know there were Master Du Xin-Wu and Wan
>>Lai-Sheng, but Du's master was not even having a real name, we only know he
>>was addressed as Midget Xu, and no one had ever heared his system
> Even the above "suburban legends" indicated that at the very least,
> zi-ran-men is not a modern inventions.
>
That was not like what you said " suburban legends", there was literature
record on the legend literally, the problem is that the record was not clear
enough... but the system is/was indeed exist, and somehow no one can trace
back to the lineages before/parallel to Du Xin-Wu( I knew one of his
granddaughter by the way )... The point is one should not deny that the
system's existance just because the unclear record/fact considering the fact
that the way those old informaiton was passed...
> These references are good enough for my purposes, as I said I am
> willing to accept even folklores and "wild histories". Similar
> references, but not made-up ones, to "Drunken Style" will do fine with
> me.
Then the legend like Beggar Soo was good enough?
A system usually named for a reason, especially for the legendary reasons, Yue
Jia Chuan, was not without origin, while it's named after Yue Fei for his
reputation, and without those legendary fight, JKD might be just as well an
unknown system today... But legends may fade with time, especially when not
well documented...I believe the " drunken style" may fell into this case...
Shi lai-An wrote The Water Marsh according to a numerous legends, the book was
completed in Qin Dynasty(?), so the information was already there...
>>> one complete sentence in the novel "Water Margin" where there is
>>> a reference to "Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals". I
>>> think many Chinese scholars and Sinologists will be interested
>>> as well.
>>
>>Try to read the story in the book, when Wu Song defeated Sun Er-Nian and Zhang
>>Qing, and Sun wanted to learn the MA from Wu Song, see what Wu Song said about
>>the art...Just a hint.
> Please do not hint, just give everybody the exact references to
> "Drunken Style" or "Drunken 8 Immortals", as most readers do not
> even know what "Water Margin" is. There is a single
> movement in Taiji called "White Crane Stretches Wings". Is this
> proof that Taiji actually was derived from Crane Boxing?
I give this hint, for I thought you might have the faith to the question and
was willing to check into the book to the relavent chapter by yourself...AS
far as the taichi move concerned, no, I don't think that's relavent, nor
should you call it as " Wild Horse" either...
> In the Wu Song story, both Sun and Zhang were running a "Dark Shop" -
> a high way trap disguised as an inn. Sun prepared some wine laced
> with sedatives for Wu. But Wu, after finding some human remains in
> the buns served to him, decided to fake that he was overcome by
> the wine. When Sun and Zhang tried to tie Wu and his companion
> up, Wu sprang up and subdued both of the bandits. Where exactly,
> was Drunken Style or Drunken 8 Immortals mentioned? I think this
> will take a lot of enthusiatic extrapolation.
You have gotten close there, actually, story was Wu was fake being drugged,
and two of the assistants of the shop couldn't even move his arm from the
table, thus Sun was involved, then there was the fight, and Wu defeated Sun
in three exchanges and got on her, and Zhang then attacked Wu from behind and
got defeated by one exchange, but they recognised each other immediately...
and then Sun appologise to Wu and asked to be Wu's deciple,... Now Wu song
said something about the * drunken immortal system"... Again, if you do have
the faith to your own question as you claimed, then it only takes a couple of
seconds to pick up the book...
>>> Personally, I think the "18 Dragon Taming Palms"
>>
>>
>>Yeh, I read about that someone nowadays( real person ) back in China start to
>>teach that crap as MA now... Are you going to believe in that because he has
>>the real name?
>>
> If you are willing to believe that there was a "Drunken Style"
> similar to the one that are seen in Wushu performance, why not?
> For one thing, based on your argument above, how can you say that
> the 18 Dragon Palms is not real?
Well, I don't know how many systems can be in real existance, and usually I
keep an open mind on whatever pop up to the public, and I am willing to study
into whatever facts is there that matches the MA principles, but if the 18
dragon palms you mentioned was whatever described in Jin Yong's novel and also
in the comparable video, then I tell you I don't believe it's MA.
>>
>>> Again, I want just 1 reference, that shows that "Drunken Style"
>>> did exist before 1940 as a complete system, or someone who
>>> specialized in it.
>>
>>Like I implicated that you may or may not get the information on your scaled
>>premise, but it doesn't mean that there was/is no such a system... i.e. No
> Does not mean such system exists before modern Wushu, either.
I think I have made this clear in above paragraghs and in my previous post, if
you get the chance to carry you yellow package back to China, and make a
public claim on your disbelieving, then you may be lucky enough to have
someone to enlighten you with the authentic information.
snip.
Desmond Chan
: Again, I am willing to accept references like that to Da Dao as
: proof that there was such a style. Give me a similar reference to
: "Drunken Style".
One of the Ten Tigers of Kwungtung (Canton), nicknamed Beggar So, was
supposed to be well-known for his drunken style.
In regard to if there is a traditional Chinese system that only has drunken
forms, as far as I know, there is none.
That's all I know. Can't give you any further detail.
Regards,
D Chan
Steven Weigand
Did anyone answer my article that I posted just a short while ago? Here's
what I was remarking on / asking:
We know that Sin The' grew up in Indonesia, right? We also know that,
in Indonesia, all things Chinese are basically illegal or extremely
discouraged socially, right? And since coming to America, Sin The' has
retained the tradition of his art wearing Japanese Gi's and using some
Japanese terminology instead of reverting back to whatever was done in
Shaolin temples, right? So my question is this.... What nationality
is the name "Sin The'" from? Is that an Indonesian name, or is it
Chinese? If it is Chinese, then how could it be, since everything
Chinese was illegal in Indonesia -- I would think his name would be the
first thing he would have changed in Indonesia to an Indonesian name? If
it is Chinese, did he at one time have an Indonesian name, and only now
is it that he has switched back to his Chinese name? If so, why stop
at just his name and not extend it to the entire art?
Just curious... And I'm really NOT judging him on anything. I'm just
interested simply out of curiousity. I can completely understand
whatever reasons he may have for keeping his name, changing his name,
or whatever.
Tak Y Wong
Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>In article <DDIn3...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>
>
>
>>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>>In article <DDFqB...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>8 drunken immortals were mentioned, though these were not the authentic
>factual source of the MA information, those book were writen before our time(
>far before the Wushu troopes compiled the new taolus )...
All I asked was 1, just 1, reference to any of these "written far
before the Wushu troupes compiled..." that makes a reference to
drunken style as a traditional system. So far, none has come up.
>
>Then the legend like Beggar Soo was good enough?
Beggar Soo was a student of Huang Qi-Ying. He practiced Hung
Gar. He knew nothing about "Drunken Fist". You are confusing
facts with movies. Lin Xi-Yong's nephew, Lin Zhu, is still
alive and runs the Hung Gar school in Hong Kong. I have known
him and his students for nearly 20 years. When Jackie Chan's
moveis first came out, we had a good laugh - actually in the
positive sense; it was a funny movie. Huang Fei-Hung
had two students who went to Hong Kong - Lin and Ling Yun-Kai.
Ling was actually a relative of Huang and had his group mostly
in Macau. Huang's concubine, Mok Gwai-Lan, also spent her late
years in Hong Kong and taught sparingly. A friend's friend
was a student of Mok. I dare say, before Mainland China opened
up in the 70's, over 90 percent of Hung Gar practitioners outside
of China had something to do with Lin Zhu's school. In all of
Hung Gar's techniques, there is only 1 single move in TIger Crane,
a 3-step that is called "drunken step". It takes lots of
imagination to make this 1 move into an entire system. (Can you
say Tai Ji is Horse Style because of "Wild Horse Parting the Mane")?
ANd I know who the choreographer/director
who took this liberty and invented "Drunken Boxing" was, not for
Jackie Chan, but a movie preceding that from which Jackie Chan's
producer ripped off the idea.
If you know more "facts" about Beggar Soo, I think the people from
Lin Zhu's school will be happy to hear them.
>
>I give this hint, for I thought you might have the faith to the question and
>was willing to check into the book to the relavent chapter by yourself...AS
>far as the taichi move concerned, no, I don't think that's relavent, nor
>should you call it as " Wild Horse" either...
>
>You have gotten close there, actually, story was Wu was fake being drugged,
>and two of the assistants of the shop couldn't even move his arm from the
>table, thus Sun was involved, then there was the fight, and Wu defeated Sun
>in three exchanges and got on her, and Zhang then attacked Wu from behind and
>got defeated by one exchange, but they recognised each other immediately...
>and then Sun appologise to Wu and asked to be Wu's deciple,... Now Wu song
>said something about the * drunken immortal system"... Again, if you do have
>the faith to your own question as you claimed, then it only takes a couple of
>seconds to pick up the book...
I hope you are just being facetious. You are making a reference to
the screenplay for the 1992(?) TV series on Wu Song, not the
classic Ming novel. This is pretty much an insult to the
intelligence of the readers of this newsgroup, to think no one
have read the novel, in CHinese or translation, or have access to
the book. I was hoping you'd realize your mistake yourself.
I have the 1994 edition of "Water Margin" here. The publisher
is San Min Bookstore in Taiwan. First published in January
1972. This is the 8th edition in February, 1994. The editior
is Miu Tian-Hua. THis book, like most other versions, is
accompanied by commentaries by Jin Sheng-Tan. This is not an
abridged version of the classics.
The title for chapter 26 is, roughly translated, "Sun Er-Nian
Sells Human Meat at 'Cross Hill'; Wu Song Meets Zhang Qing in
Zhang's Inn". I will pick up where Wu pretends to be drunk,
and Sun tries to tie him up:
"Sun took off her apron, and baring her shoulder, picked up
Wu Song by the waist. Wu Song went along without resisting.
Then he just wrapped his arms around Sun's waist, and tripped her
with his legs. THen Wu forced himself on top of Sun's lower
body [This has been interpreted as a sexual aggression on
Wu Song's part.] Sun was pinned down and could not move.
Sun started crying like a pig being slaughered..."
At this point Zhang Qing, Sun's husband, walked into the inn
and immediately recognized Wu Song as the hero who killed the
tiger with bare hands. Then Zhang apologized for his wife's
rash action...
The "Water Margin" is a major classic in CHinese literature.
Every single line in the book has been studied and analyzed
by numerous scholars and sinologists for its social and
cultural implications. To have "discovered" something like
"drunken style kung fu" in the "Water Margin" is at the same
level of the anachronistic reference to the 12-hour clock in
Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". YOu can make or break many
a PhD candidate with this "discovery".
I have watched a Chinese TV series on another classic - Western
Journy - a few years ago. THe Taoist classmates of Sun Wu-Kong,
the Monkey Kong, were practicing Tai Ji, Ba Gua, and Praying
Mantis - that was 500 years before the Tang Dynasty!
THis is truly life imitating art (movies.) Perhaps you can
ask the screenwriters for the TV series where they got their
inspirations to take the liberty of space and time.
This group is really geared for casual chats, at any rate.
However, if you love your own culture, you should respect it.
And in my opinion, there is no better way of showing your
respect by being truthful and honest. THe age of Imperialism
is long gone; there is no longer any need to impress foreigners
and grab their attentions with spurious accounts of exotic
fantasy, although there are still many who are fascinated
by chop suey and fortune cookie philosophy. I am not sure
if you have read the CHinese classic novel, maybe not very
carefully. To the MTV generation, watching a TV adaptation
may be just as good as reading the original, who knows.
At any rate, you are entitled to believe whatever you think
is right, if it works for you. Nobody takes this newsgroup
seriously, anyway - it would be a shame if anybody did.
Finally, just an old joke:
"Two young scholars were on a trip to the imperial exam.
together. They came to a mountian on their way and marvelled
at the beauty of the scenery. One of the scholars found a
stone tablet and read the characters on it: "Oh, now I know, this
is the Tai Xang Mountain!". The other immediately shook his
head and rebuked him: "How can you be so unlearned? This second
character is read Xing, not Xang, even a grade school student
would know that." The first scholar was taken aback a little, but
did not argue. THen they came upon an old scholar whom they
both recognized to possess great knowledge and experience.
The second scholar told the old man how his companion made
such a simple mistake: "...and he wants to take the imperial
exam..." The old man thought for a little, and then replied,
"you are absolutely right, this mountain is called the Tai
Xing Mountian". When the second scholar went off to get some
water, the first scholar asked the old man, "venerable sir, I
have been taught from youth that this mountain is of great
historical and geographical significance, and has been always
called the Tai Xang Mountain. Why did you tell him otherwise."
"Tai Xang Mountain is correct", the old man said, "but your
companion is such an arrogant fool and apparently cannot
accept others correcting his error. I just want him to
make the same mistake for the rest of his life."
Regards,
Tak
>
>
>snip.
>
>
>
Roger Krueger
> If [the name Sin The'] is Chinese, then how could it be, since everything
> Chinese was illegal in Indonesia --
in several of his books that the educational and economic opportunities of the
Chinese minority population in Indonesia are restricted by law and policy.
But that's not quite the same as "everything Chinese was illegal."
Roger Krueger rkru...@delphi.com
Tak Y Wong
Desmond Chan <dc...@is.dal.ca> wrote:
>Tak Y Wong (info...@world.std.com) wrote:
>: Again, I am willing to accept references like that to Da Dao as
>: proof that there was such a style. Give me a similar reference to
>: "Drunken Style".
>
>One of the Ten Tigers of Kwungtung (Canton), nicknamed Beggar So, was
>supposed to be well-known for his drunken style.
In the movies, maybe. According to Jackie Chan's movies,
Huang Fei-Hong was great at "Drunken Fist", too.
I have seen at least 4 or 5 movies on the gunfight at OK Corral,
each with a different portrayal of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday.
I wonder which one tells the "truth".
Beggar So was a student of Huang QI-Ying, which makes him
the same generation as Huang Fei-Hong. Beggar So did Hung Gar,
not "Drunken Style" - where would a Southerner learn Northern
acrobatics, anyway?
Your assertion proves my point exactly - that people take what
they see in movies or novels and assume these to be facts. If
you like to pick up history from movies, that's fine with me.
You can even pass the "misinformation" around, if you want to.
There are enough people out there who don't think with logics
and eventually these rumors will become "facts". (By that time,
facts will become falsehood, of course.)
In 50 years, Jin Yong's novel will become classics, and thanks to
his readers, "18 Dragon Taming Palms" will be mainstream
martial arts.
Wake me up when someone starts teaching "Chairman Mao Qi-Gong".
Regards,
Tak
Travis Archer
>at just his name and not extend it to the entire art?
Sin Kwang The' is Chinese. Sin Kwang, in beijing Mandarin pinyin,
would be shenguang. I haven't seen the character for The', and it's
such a weird romanization that I can't guess at it. Honestly have no idea
about the ansers to your other questions...
Steven Weigand
Wasn't he persecuted socially for having a Chinese name in Indonesia?
Or did he switch names when he left there?
Ciao for now,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@udel.edu)
mikel evins
wei...@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu writes:
>Just a quick question here... If he was raised in Indonesia, why is his
>name Chinese? Or *is* it Chinese? "Sin The'" sounds like Chinese. It
>could be Indonesian.
'The' is an Indonesian name. His father, owner of a textile
business, uses it as one of several conditions of doing
business in Indonesia as an ethnic Chinese.
I've been told that the family name is 'Chung' or perhaps
'Zheng' (I'm sorry; I don't know the proper Romanization).
When signing his name in Hanzi he uses the traditional
character forms. His name is 'Chung Sin Kwang'. I am
told that he consitnues to use the Indonesian name out of
deference to his father.
Incidentally, Steve, I tried sending mail to answer another
question that you posted, but my mail bounced (twice).
You might try sending mail to me at either of the following
addresses:
at work:
mi...@apple.com
at home:
mi...@dreamtime.com
Tak Y Wong
>
>
>
>>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>>In article <DDIn3...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>>>>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>>>>In article <DDFqB...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>
>
What does a "hint" means? In actual words, or just what you
thought must be true?
>and the book Wu song Zhuan( the biography of Wu Song ) and the Beggar Soo's
>legend... unfortunately, there was no well documented literature in this
>
>Be frankly, I don't know which Beggar Soo, you are talking about, I haven't
>even seen the Jacky Chan's video, nor do I know those people who you said as
>Huang Fei-Hong's deciples... All I read was a legend of late Qing Dynasty,
>there was an old Beggar with this amasing MA skill named the drunken 8
>immortals, ... I read this from a MA magazine in China years ago...
>
Cite the name of the magazine, please.
There were at least 2 movies made on the legend of Beggar Soo
in Hong Kong in the 1950. Neither had any mention of Beggar Soo
knowing any "Drunken Style". Beggar Soo, like Huang Fei-Hong,
was a legendary figure in GuangDong. We used to hear numerous
stories about him from our elders. None of these stories involves
"Drunken Style".
In the late 70's, all of a sudden, almost every single martial
arts movies had the character Beggar Soo in it, and he always
did "Drunken Style". It was probably no co-incidence that
Jackie Chan's "Drunken Fist" was the highest grossing movie
ever just before the explosion of "Beggar Soo-maniac".
>Shandong TV service had a TV series Wu Song, the MA editor was Qiu Jian-Guo,
>I don't think he was from Beijing Wu shu troop though, and that TV was based
>on the book too... As a MA practioner, I just evaluate MA components that come
>Here I believe we are talking about different edition sources of the book, the
>ones I came across years ago indeed had the version I mentioned above,... Gee,
>I didn't know Taiwan may have different versions of the book.
Go do yourself a favor: get a Mainland Chinese edition of
"Water Margin", and read the chapter. Then you may start
to realize how reliable popular magazines, TV movies, etc.
are.
I hope you are not implying Taiwanese "touch" up classical
novels because of some political ideology. If anything,
I think the Mainland Chinese are famous for disseminating
spurious information - look at their "qi-gong" claims and
how they turned the Shaolin Temple into a tourist trap.
I hope you realize that in all your positings, you have just
enforced my statement that people take "history" from movies
and other entertainments and pass it on as facts. You kept
repeating TV series, stories in popular magazines, etc.
And you tried to convinced yourself by extrapolating from
classics to fit this picture.
Do you realize who wrote those stories. An old Chinese
saying: "History is just as reliable as those who wrote it."
>
>There were a group of blinders came to an elephant, and trying to figue out
>what the elephant was like, the one touched the nose said: Ah, the elephant is
>like an hose... the one touched the leg then said: No, it's like a big pole...
>then the one who touched the ears said: No, the elephant is like a big fan...
>Then there was the one who touched the butt and said: No, it's like the
>monk's head.
It is a good story, but there is one slight problem. You have
made your claim (and saying others are wrong) without even
bothering to look up any edition of the "Water Margin", which is
the source you used to discredit others. This is
comparable to a blind man in your story who did not
even touch the elephant and told others what an elephant is
like. Go read "Water Margin", then we can start discussing
whether there are implications strong enough to support your case.
Regards,
Tak
>
>
>
>
Tye W. Botting, SysAdmin
%mikel evins <mi...@apple.com> writes:
%
%>Incidentally, Steve, I tried sending mail to answer another
%>question that you posted, but my mail bounced (twice).
%>You might try sending mail to me at either of the following
%>addresses:
%
% The same thing happened to me as well, Steve. The address you provide
%in your .sig always bounces for me.
The address in the From: field works, I bet... But yes, the
@udel.edu one definitely doesn't for me either.
Tye Botting | Fool! Fool!
t...@pro-haven.cts.com | You got to bleed for the dancer,
bot...@leper.tamu.edu | Fool! Fool!
| Look for the answer,
N.Shaolin/N.Praying Mantis | Fool! Fool! Fool!
Taijiquan & Modern Arnis | - Black Sabbath
#30
Fu-chen Yang
Thanks for the talk, which indeed made me do a little review on the book, now
here it goes, The book Water Marsh was originally organised from the foklores
from Song Dynasty by Luo Guan-Zhong, who was also the author of San Guo Yan
Yi... and the Water Marsh was then compiled by Shi lai-An, the author of Shi
version of Water Marsh, Luo and Shi were Ming Dynasty people, but the book was
then re-compiled by Jin Shen-Tan( the version You've got across ), Jin was a
Qing Dynasty person, he did major re-writing of the Water Marsh, and chap off
about more than 70 chapers from the original version...Thus the Jin's version
was completed in Qing Dynasty,( which may insulted your inteligence somehow ).
Alright, here said, if you still have the descent honest you claim to have,
then go to check the version I have mentioned, that at least can give you a
hint that the information was not from today's fokelore.
Steven Weigand
Travis Archer <arc...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
>>Incidentally, Steve, I tried sending mail to answer another
>
> The same thing happened to me as well, Steve. The address you provide
>
Weird! Try the following and I'll bounce them back to you:
wei...@ee.udel.edu
wei...@eecis.udel.edu
wei...@ssnet.com
wei...@locke.ccil.org
One of 'm is bound to get through.
I think what happened is that my "other" U of Delaware account
(wei...@brahms.udel.edu) got deleted because I'm no longer a student
there, and now anything sent to "wei...@udel.edu" may be sent to
my wei...@brahms.udel.edu account, where it then gets bounced back
to the sender saying that I don't exist there. It *shouldn't* do that,
but then again, this *is* the U of Delaware! :-(
I'll change my sig to read, "wei...@ee.udel.edu" from now on, and my
replyto variable to "wei...@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu".
Thanks guys!
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@ee.udel.edu)
Fu-chen Yang
>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>>I got the hint mainly from the books Shui-Fu ( the Water Marsh ),
> What does a "hint" means? In actual words, or just what you
> thought must be true?
The implication, the hint of the possible source of a MA system existing
time... namely, the 8 drunken immortals.
>>and the book Wu song Zhuan( the biography of Wu Song ) and the Beggar Soo's
>>legend... unfortunately, there was no well documented literature in this
>>
>>Be frankly, I don't know which Beggar Soo, you are talking about, I haven't
>>even seen the Jacky Chan's video, nor do I know those people who you said as
>>Huang Fei-Hong's deciples... All I read was a legend of late Qing Dynasty,
>>there was an old Beggar with this amasing MA skill named the drunken 8
>>immortals, ... I read this from a MA magazine in China years ago...
>>
> Cite the name of the magazine, please.
Wulin was the one I read the most in those early days. But forgive me didn't
trap down the exact issue/year? because it was as I said years ago.
> There were at least 2 movies made on the legend of Beggar Soo
> in Hong Kong in the 1950. Neither had any mention of Beggar Soo
> knowing any "Drunken Style". Beggar Soo, like Huang Fei-Hong,
> was a legendary figure in GuangDong. We used to hear numerous
> stories about him from our elders. None of these stories involves
> "Drunken Style".
Those I don't know at all, the reason is simple, HongKong movies were not
allowed in the Mainland China those days...and still I am not quite sure
wether we are talking about the same legends, anyway, it may or may not have a
result on this point at present conditions...
> In the late 70's, all of a sudden, almost every single martial
> arts movies had the character Beggar Soo in it, and he always
> did "Drunken Style". It was probably no co-incidence that
> Jackie Chan's "Drunken Fist" was the highest grossing movie
> ever just before the explosion of "Beggar Soo-maniac".
Given this fact is indeed true, then I don't deny that the Mainland version
of the legend may quite likely be influenced by the issue,... but again, I am
not sure about the true source of the later Beggar Soo legend version in
China.
>>Shandong TV service had a TV series Wu Song, the MA editor was Qiu
Jian-Guo, >>I don't think he was from Beijing Wu shu troop though, and that TV
was based >>on the book too... As a MA practioner, I just evaluate MA
components that come
>>Here I believe we are talking about different edition sources of the book, the
>>ones I came across years ago indeed had the version I mentioned above,... Gee,
>>I didn't know Taiwan may have different versions of the book.
> Go do yourself a favor: get a Mainland Chinese edition of
> "Water Margin", and read the chapter. Then you may start
> to realize how reliable popular magazines, TV movies, etc.
> are.
Ok. By now you haven't seen what I put in another post on the thread about
this issue,... just in case you missed it, now here is the point.
Shui-hu was the stories collected from folklores before Ming Dynasty by Luo
Guan-Zhong, who was also the author of San Guo Yan Yi, and shi lai-An, who was
also a Ming dynasty person compiled the book later, then there is/was the Shi
version of Shui Hu, which was the one I came cross and like I mentioned
above,... Jin Shen-Tan then was the Qing Dynasty person who recompiled the
book and made major change of the original version of it, literally he chopped
over 70 chapters of the original version, thus the version you came cross was
indeed the Qing version of the book... which is in large scale different
from the version I was mentioning.
I take you are not an authority of the academic research of the ancient
Chinese literature, so just put down the arrogance and do some descent
studies, and I believe that will be beneficial to all of us.
> I hope you are not implying Taiwanese "touch" up classical
> novels because of some political ideology. If anything,
> I think the Mainland Chinese are famous for disseminating
> spurious information - look at their "qi-gong" claims and
> how they turned the Shaolin Temple into a tourist trap.
Again, you are stepping into your own " old joke" now,... just how much facts,
just facts you know about the Mainland China political ideology? and again,
just how much facts you know about the tai wan in comparable areas?
I know the Mainland side but not that well on the taiwan side, thus I would
rather not confuse the folks here.
From the biased examples you listed here, I would say you doesn't sounds like
you are so bright that you won't make the same mistakes...
> I hope you realize that in all your positings, you have just
> enforced my statement that people take "history" from movies
> and other entertainments and pass it on as facts. You kept
> repeating TV series, stories in popular magazines, etc.
> And you tried to convinced yourself by extrapolating from
> classics to fit this picture.
> Do you realize who wrote those stories. An old Chinese
> saying: "History is just as reliable as those who wrote it."
Wait a second, what history you mean? If you are talk about MA hsitory,
especially Chinese MA history, then you should realise that it was/is indeed
based on lots of legends and unclear document and uncomplete records and
segmented facts,... but if one try to deny the whole thing because of the
present facts then I tell you that many historical studies can be questioned
too, i.e. the history of the South China Sea, etc.
I agree the point that the " History is just as reliable as those who wrote
it", but in my case at least there is one thing countable that is the legend
was far foredated than the present time.
>>
>>There were a group of blinders came to an elephant, and trying to figue out
>>what the elephant was like, the one touched the nose said: Ah, the elephant is
>>like an hose... the one touched the leg then said: No, it's like a big pole...
>>then the one who touched the ears said: No, the elephant is like a big fan...
>>Then there was the one who touched the butt and said: No, it's like the
>>monk's head.
> It is a good story, but there is one slight problem. You have
> made your claim (and saying others are wrong) without even
> bothering to look up any edition of the "Water Margin", which is
> the source you used to discredit others. This is
> comparable to a blind man in your story who did not
> even touch the elephant and told others what an elephant is
> like. Go read "Water Margin", then we can start discussing
> whether there are implications strong enough to support your case.
Well, you know what? I think this story fits you just as well.
> Regards,
> Tak
>>
>>
>>
>>
David Lee Montgomery
>We know that Sin The' grew up in Indonesia, right? We also know that,
>in Indonesia, all things Chinese are basically illegal or extremely
>discouraged socially, right? And since coming to America, Sin The' has
>retained the tradition of his art wearing Japanese Gi's and using some
>Japanese terminology instead of reverting back to whatever was done in
>Shaolin temples, right? So my question is this.... What nationality
>is the name "Sin The'" from? Is that an Indonesian name, or is it
>Chinese? If it is Chinese, then how could it be, since everything
>Chinese was illegal in Indonesia -- I would think his name would be the
>first thing he would have changed in Indonesia to an Indonesian name? If
>it is Chinese, did he at one time have an Indonesian name, and only now
>is it that he has switched back to his Chinese name? If so, why stop
>at just his name and not extend it to the entire art?
>Just curious... And I'm really NOT judging him on anything. I'm just
>interested simply out of curiousity. I can completely understand
>whatever reasons he may have for keeping his name, changing his name,
>or whatever.
>Thanks,
> - Steve Weigand
> (wei...@udel.edu)
>
Grandmaster The' did have an Indonesian name and a Chinese name. As to
whether Sin Kwang The' is his Chinese name or Indonesian name, I have no
idea. It sounds Chinese to me but, then again, I wouldn't know an
Indonesian name if it hit me in the head. If it is Chinese, I don't know
why he kept the name Shao-Lin Do.
Just as a little factoid, Grandmaster The' and several students (including
the previously mentioned Master Grooms and Masters Soards) went on a trip to
China and Indonesia a few years ago. While in China, the group went to the
current Shao-Lin temple in Hunan. A ceremony was held at the temple to
erect a stone marker which bears the names of Su Kong Tai Djin, Ie Chang
Ming, and Sin Kwang The'. The words "Grand Master of Shao-Lin Do" appear
before Grandmaster The's name. In Bandung, the city in Indonesia where
Grandmaster The' grew up, a martial arts demonstration was organized
in honor of Grandmaster The's visit. The top martial arts masters in
Indonesia attended the demonstration and it was covered by all the local
media. If the masters in Indonesia and the monks at the temple have no
problem with Grandmaster The's lineage, then I sure don't.
Steven Weigand
>the previously mentioned Master Grooms and Masters Soards) went on a trip to
>China and Indonesia a few years ago. While in China, the group went to the
>current Shao-Lin temple in Hunan. A ceremony was held at the temple to
>erect a stone marker which bears the names of Su Kong Tai Djin, Ie Chang
>Ming, and Sin Kwang The'. The words "Grand Master of Shao-Lin Do" appear
>before Grandmaster The's name. In Bandung, the city in Indonesia where
>Grandmaster The' grew up, a martial arts demonstration was organized
>in honor of Grandmaster The's visit. The top martial arts masters in
>Indonesia attended the demonstration and it was covered by all the local
>media. If the masters in Indonesia and the monks at the temple have no
>problem with Grandmaster The's lineage, then I sure don't.
This is another thing that I pondered. I'm not really a TOTAL cynic. It's
just that I like to see all possibilities rather than concluding one
rashly. In this case, Master Grooms, his pamphlets, and many others
have regurgitated this event as if to say that, because the monks there
did that, Sin The' must therefore be legitimate. I say, possibly. I also
recognize other possibilities, which I need to ask questions in order to
narrow down:
Who are the monks currently (living?) at the Shaolin Temple in China? Do
they practice Shaolin Kung fu? Are they truly Buddhist monks? Do they
have any connection with the generations of Shaolin monks before themselves?
I know that Shaolin temple was burned down on several(?) occassions, and
the monks murdered(?) or driven away, so the question is, do these current
residents of Shaolin temple have anyone who can trace their lineage back to
when there were Shaolin kung fu experts there? Are they currently authentic
Shaolin kung fu experts, and who is their head master?
When did these monks repopulate the Shaolin temple? What got them back into
it? Was it the government? Did the government hand pick the monks to
be there, or did they come freely, maybe because their fathers or
grandfathers were once Shaolin monks?
Did the monks there create the stone marker for Sin The' out of a sense of
righteousness (the right thing to do), or was it more of a political
statement? Stone tablets and other little tokens of public appreciation
can sometimes have a dubious political purpose.
Can anyone answer these questions? I'd really appreciate that knowledge.
Thanks,
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@ee.udel.edu)
Travis Archer
Rob Morton
: Just as a little factoid, Grandmaster The' and several students (including
: the previously mentioned Master Grooms and Masters Soards) went on a trip to
: China and Indonesia a few years ago. While in China, the group went to the
: current Shao-Lin temple in Hunan. A ceremony was held at the temple to
: erect a stone marker which bears the names of Su Kong Tai Djin, Ie Chang
: Ming, and Sin Kwang The'. The words "Grand Master of Shao-Lin Do" appear
: before Grandmaster The's name. In Bandung, the city in Indonesia where
: Grandmaster The' grew up, a martial arts demonstration was organized
: in honor of Grandmaster The's visit. The top martial arts masters in
: Indonesia attended the demonstration and it was covered by all the local
: media. If the masters in Indonesia and the monks at the temple have no
: problem with Grandmaster The's lineage, then I sure don't.
The founder of Shorinji Kempo, Doshin So, also visited Shaolin and had
a plaque erected even though his art was proved in court to have no
direct relation to Shaolin temple. Most martial artists I know who've visited
Shaolin have been very disappointed. My impression (and it is an
impression only) is that money talks there.
regards Rob
PS I intend no offence to the art of Shorinji Kempo and would heartily
recommend it any time.
David Lee Montgomery
>Who are the monks currently (living?) at the Shaolin Temple in China? Do
>they practice Shaolin Kung fu? Are they truly Buddhist monks? Do they
>have any connection with the generations of Shaolin monks before themselves?
>I know that Shaolin temple was burned down on several(?) occassions, and
>the monks murdered(?) or driven away, so the question is, do these current
>residents of Shaolin temple have anyone who can trace their lineage back to
>when there were Shaolin kung fu experts there? Are they currently authentic
>Shaolin kung fu experts, and who is their head master?
>When did these monks repopulate the Shaolin temple? What got them back into
>it? Was it the government? Did the government hand pick the monks to
>be there, or did they come freely, maybe because their fathers or
>grandfathers were once Shaolin monks?
>Did the monks there create the stone marker for Sin The' out of a sense of
>righteousness (the right thing to do), or was it more of a political
>statement? Stone tablets and other little tokens of public appreciation
>can sometimes have a dubious political purpose.
>Can anyone answer these questions? I'd really appreciate that knowledge.
Not being an expert (or even a novice) on Chinese history, I can't answer
your questions about the temple and its history. I will run
them by Master Grooms but he probably won't know either. I do know that
kung fu is practiced at the temple (not really sure if it's AT the temple
or somewhere near it). The group that went to China brought back video of a
demonstration put on by the monks. The demonstration mainly contained
younger monks but they still did some pretty incredible stuff. As to the
stone marker being some kind of political statement, I don't think so. What
kind of statement would it be? I think the marker is just what it appers
to be, a way of showing respect for Grand Maste The' and his diligence in
preserving Shao-Lin kung fu.
In the end, does it really matter if the history is 100 percent accurate?
Grand Master The' and his high ranking students have incredible skills and
an incredible amout of martial knowledge which they can demonstrate. I've
seen some pretty incredible stuff and I've heard about even more amazing
things. Whether or not the history is 100 percent correct has nothing to do
with the fact that these people can do these things. The proof is in the
ability and knowledge of Grand Master The'. I'll probably spend the rest
of my life studying Shao-Lin Do and when I die, I still won't know as much
as Grand Master The' does today.
Fu-chen Yang
>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>Path: news.ycc.yale.edu!yale!news3.near.net!news2.near.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!wizard.pn.com!news1.channel1.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!infotask>Subject: Re: Drunken Style in "Water Margin"? How about Forrest Gump doing Elvis? (was Re: Chinese Shaolin Center)
>Message-ID: <DDqKr...@world.std.com>
>Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:47:35 GMT
>Lines: 64
>In article <YangFC.32...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks for the talk, which indeed made me do a little review on the book, now
>>here it goes, The book Water Marsh was originally organised from the foklores
>>from Song Dynasty by Luo Guan-Zhong, who was also the author of San Guo Yan
>>Yi... and the Water Marsh was then compiled by Shi lai-An, the author of Shi
>>version of Water Marsh, Luo and Shi were Ming Dynasty people, but the book was
>>then re-compiled by Jin Shen-Tan( the version You've got across ), Jin was a
>>Qing Dynasty person, he did major re-writing of the Water Marsh, and chap off
>>about more than 70 chapers from the original version...Thus the Jin's version
>>was completed in Qing Dynasty,( which may insulted your inteligence somehow ).
>>
>>Alright, here said, if you still have the descent honest you claim to have,
>>then go to check the version I have mentioned, that at least can give you a
>>hint that the information was not from today's fokelore.
>>
> I am afraid I have missed it. I have never seen you actually
> state what edition you sources come from. Please list
> publisher, publishing date and the chapter (perhaps the exact page)
> where it was described that "Wu Song subdued Sun Er-Nian with
> 1 move, ...and then turn around and defeated Zhang Qing with 3
> moves... and when Zhang Qing asked him what style kung fu it
> was. Wu Song replied....."
Here said, I couldn't provide you with the exact publisher's information, but
I believe that was the version of Shi lai-An' work because there were the
later 71 chapters that was absent from the Jin Shen-Tan' version,... It was
found from my uncle's book stock,... he's dead for years now... But if you are
that authentic as you thought on the subject, you should noticed that in all
Luo Guan-Zhong's works and all Water Marsh versions, MA style/name/lineage
were barely mentioned in detail except in two or three cases, i.e. one is Lu
Zhun-Yi's Qi-Ning Guen( long stuff ), Wu Song's drunken 8 immortals and iron
shirt, and the later 71 chaper, one of Fan Na's people's Golden belt Kung, etc.
This fact somehow, indicate that the author was not like the later Wu Xia
authors who sitting in there make up MA terms... and the whole book was laid
out in a plain language version, which implicates its folklore origin...
> I am afraid such version does not exist.
Don't be so sure though.
> The Taiwanese edition I mentioned was not the only edition of
> "Water Margin" I have read. (Why would the Taiwanese abridge
> the references to "Drunken Style" anyway, just because Jet Li
> does it better than Jackie Chan??)
>
That doesn't sounds like someone claims to be a honest lover of his own
culture, where is the faith?
The bottom line is though, if you are really in MA at all, you know where to
see the potential implications of MA component... Though the present flashy
Wushu type of Drunken style had lots of unpractical additions, while one can
still see the firm basis of authentic connections to the real side of kungfu...
I didn't see Jacky Chan's drunken style, nor did I see Jet Li's version after
he left the Mainland, but the one that Jet Li showed in the Movie Shaolin
Temple was not what I would reckon as a reference at all,... he was actually
doing it with his Northern Shaolin style... However, the one I Mentioned in
Shangdong TV Wu-Song, the Drunken style was compiled with some true signs...
but all these impression was not what made me believe of the real existance of
the MA system.
To tell you the truth, the book I mentioned was indeed exist and which really
made me open an area in my mind for the drunken style because legends in those
old days usually carried true information of MA,... plus the system itself is
not an extraordinary MA fatasy. So I would treat it the same way as I treat
other Chinese MA mystries...
> I was a student of Professor Lu Wai-Feng, a Ming/Qing history
> expert (also a Wu Xia novel writer) at Harvard. Lu's teacher
> was Professor Yang Luen-Sheng, whom Dr. Hu Shih once said was
> the "most knowledgable Chinese scholar I have never known."
Thanks for sharing this information with me, but it is unrelevant, I know
China has 5,000 year culture history, even one specialised in Ming/Qing
history, it doesn't necessarily mean he is specialise in Ming/Qing MA history
or Ming/Qing folklore history because one must have his academic focus on some
of his favorite area which in most circumstances wouldn't encompass
everything, so it's still the ears and nose of an elephant.
I know Dr. Hu Shih was famous, but not everybody would agree with him when
come to a subject like MA... sorry, no credit can be taken here.
As a matter of fact, MA researchers in China have started to do systemic
studies in Chinese folk MA in the past decade, more and more information never
revealed before have uncovered resently, I bet there are some references
available from the later publications... as I mentioned I don't practice the
style, thus it's just my amateur hobby to collect the relevant information
when come by. If you want, there is a Chinese MA Dictionary come out resently,
you might be able to dig some fact out of there too.
> I have read different versions of "Water Margin", including
> those from Mainland China. I have never come across anything
> such as what you had mentioned about "Drunken 8 Immortals" in
> "Water Margin".
Well, here I said, the story I mentioned was indeed exist and again I would
make the suggestion that one should go making the reevaulation on what he has
missed.
> As a side note, the "Drunken 8 Immortals" originated from the
> 8 Tang poets in Du Fu's poems, not the 8 deities in popular
> belief.
To me that's just another version of the historical facts, in those old days
many traditional MA taolu were associated to literature episode, folklores
and legends, etc. Du's poem in Tang Dynasty might as well quite likely became
the reference of MAtist of drunken style at that time or later.
> I have made my point very clear: if you cannot show me a
> legitimate edition of "Water Margin" - comic book adaptations
> don't count - that has references to "Drunken Fist" in it,
> then I have to assume you obtained your information from
> popular entertainment or heresay. You just cannot assert that
> "Drunken Style existed for hundreds of years" based on these
> spurious informations.
You are right, I can not assert that, and I don't think I have to, and all the
dicussion between you and I was basically dealling with different
philosophical point of views in the MA historical facts, which indeed has been
a very undefined area in Chinese history.
History has passed by, and the remainders to prove the remote events are not
aboundant, I would appreciate someone with an academic historian's altitude
to do some serious researches into the incomplete Chinese MA history in order
to reveal the real facts, but I would not agree to the point that one covers
the burying gem by put on some other unrelated contempray exist fact.
Remember, your extrapolation on as Ba Chuan as Drunken 8 immortals in a
previous thread, that was something I believe not an academically considered
claim,... at least at a MAtist's point of view.
> Believe me, I am not the only one who has read "Water Margin"
> carefully and written research papers on it. I think a lot
> of other wiser folks do not see it dignified to make such
> an argument.
At least those who practice drunken style won't be discouraged by trust your
negative information on the true existance of the system as an authentic MA.
David Lee Montgomery
> The founder of Shorinji Kempo, Doshin So, also visited Shaolin and had
>a plaque erected even though his art was proved in court to have no
>direct relation to Shaolin temple. Most martial artists I know who've visited
>Shaolin have been very disappointed. My impression (and it is an
>impression only) is that money talks there.
I wasn't on the trip, so I really have no first hand impression of the
temple. If money does indeed talk there, then maybe the monks need to
re-evaluate what they're doing there.
David
Fu-chen Yang
>In article <YangFC.33...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>In article <DDqKr...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>>>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>>>Path: news.ycc.yale.edu!yale!news3.near.net!news2.near.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!wizard.pn.com!news1.channel1.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!infotask
>>>From: info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong)
>>
>>Here said, I couldn't provide you with the exact publisher's information, but
>>I believe that was the version of Shi lai-An' work because there were the
>>later 71 chapters that was absent from the Jin Shen-Tan' version,... It was
>>found from my uncle's book stock,... he's dead for years now... But if you are
>>> I am afraid such version does not exist.
>>
>>Don't be so sure though.
> Without the information on publisher, it is impossible for anyone
> to find it. I can't just go to every library or bookstore
> looking for it, especially if it indeed does not exist.
> And I don't think I recall knowing your uncle.
> You cannot assert the existence of Santa Claus by asking the
> non-believers to find him. It is often easier to prove
> something that exists, and usually improbable to prove it
> does not. You can always drop me a line whenever you run
> into such a version.
Alright, I may try to trace back to the book, but the problem I think you have
was more ignorance than the book/information itself. For some reason I feel
that it's not the gap of two figuers with different MA points...
>>To tell you the truth, the book I mentioned was indeed exist and which really
> You should find it for me, then, so I can enrich my library. I and
> others will be very grateful.
I will try then to find the things I mentioned, again, I still doubt that you
really have the faith to the question .
>>
>> > I was a student of Professor Lu Wai-Feng, a Ming/Qing history
>>> expert (also a Wu Xia novel writer) at Harvard. Lu's teacher
>>> was Professor Yang Luen-Sheng, whom Dr. Hu Shih once said was
>>> the "most knowledgable Chinese scholar I have never known."
>>
>>Thanks for sharing this information with me, but it is unrelevant, I know
>>China has 5,000 year culture history, even one specialised in Ming/Qing
>>history, it doesn't necessarily mean he is specialise in Ming/Qing MA history
>>or Ming/Qing folklore history because one must have his academic focus on some
>>of his favorite area which in most circumstances wouldn't encompass
>>everything, so it's still the ears and nose of an elephant.
>>
> Prof. Lu spent 10 years with Prof. Qian Mu in New Asia College
> in Hong Kong. Then he went to Japan and studied in the Imperial
> College (?) of Sinology. Then he came to the US and was
> associated with the East Asian Studies Dept. for the last 20
> years or so. I believe he was a classmate of Prof. Yu Ying-Shi,
> former head of East Asian Studies of Yale and now of Harvard.
>
> Dr. Lu's interest was varied. We used to have pro-longed
> discussions on Taoism, Buddhism, popular literature (Red
> Chamber, Western Journey, Water Margin, etc.) As a
> Wu Xia novel writer under a pseudonym, I think you should
> give him the benefit of the doubt that he is well-versed in
> folklores, talltales, historical facts (??), and legends
> in CHinese Martial Arts. As for myself, let's say Gu
> Yu-Jiang used to work under my godfather, in the military,
> for about 5 years.
I have no interest in contemprary Wu Xia novel, too much craps made in
there...the above information only tells me that Dr. Lu had interest in the
religion and literature areas, and it didn't show his credential in the
research of the Chinese MA lineages/history at all, take it is the fact that
now many of the most famous Chinese MA systems' history are still laid in
mystries and more and more new facts are still evolving...
I don't know your godfather either, the military service in those days are
quite common, my grandfather was graduated from the 2nd class of Baoding
Military Acadamy, and he served all his career in the military before the
Communist came... But all the MA he knew was taichi chuan and Wu Qin xi.
>>I know Dr. Hu Shih was famous, but not everybody would agree with him when
>>come to a subject like MA... sorry, no credit can be taken here.
>>
> You would be surprised that Hu Shih did indeed have a lot to do
> with modern Chinese Martial Arts. I don't know if you are
> familiar with Cai Yuan-Pei and the history of Beijing
> University. By the way, Cai was a very significant figure
> in modern Chinese history and had not received nearly the
> attention and tribute that he deserved.
I remember read about some articles about some advocate made by Cai, but both
Cai and Hu were never recognised as the pioneer of New MA movement in China, I
remember read about the ex-Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guang( the Central MA acadamy),
which was headed by a military figue, and they indeed gathered some mighty
people in MA those days...
I know both Cai and Hu are the pioneers of the Chinese New Culture, and indeed
in that time they had obtained their golden time to develop their carreer and
they hit the right chance to be that established because they were in a time
of change...But I never heared that any of them were carrying an astonish MA
background, none of them were ever reported as a MA figue even in those
relevant MA articles...
Given the fact that you have been joking at the MA figues like Jet Li and so
on at the performance of the Wushu, I bet Cai and Hu can never reach such
performance level in their time... I think you should not defame the famous
literature and educational scholars by putting them in an area that they don't
belong to...
>snip
>>As a matter of fact, MA researchers in China have started to do systemic
>>studies in Chinese folk MA in the past decade, more and more information never
> It really depends on who is doing it, and with what motivation.
> I am familiar with the editors of Wu-Lin (well, those in the
> 80's, anyway). I would say their reliability is about 1
> notch above Wonder Comics and slightly below National Enquirer.
> You can quote me, too, if you happen to run into any of the
> current editors. I could have written articles for them
> about Native American Ninja Gong Fu, if I wanted to.
This does indicate that you don't know what is history, as long as there is a
space of publication there, with the time going, the good stuff can get the
chance to fill in... There is a saying the capable fellow sees the capacity
and the wise fellow sees the wisdom,... I bet everyone had a faverite and a
detasted area in a MA magazine because it is geared for various readers, and
anything that is too "pure" is going to take a risk of unbalance...
I read some resent issues of WuLin( 1994 ), and I think there were some good
stuff about the lineage of taichi history, i.e. in a colmn like Half Corner
Comment and so on...
The problem is past literature on MA subject was very limitted, and no well
organised theoritical and historical studies were done before, thus is
unfortunately ignored historical area, no one can deny this fact, the issue is
should one fill the space with the history of other area, or make efforts to
do some more study based on the deminishing MA history facts.
> At any rate, I have realized that I may not have been the
> most diplomatic of posters. However, politenesss and
> courtesy do not equate honesty and diligency. If you are
> someone who looks for "not what they say, but how they say it",
> you should try volunteering for Hillary Rodham Clinton; her
> speeches on the underprivileged often bring me to tears.
> Or try learning "extraordinary abilities" from Yan Xin; he
> teaches trash, but according to those who know him, he is
> actually a soft-spoken, likable chap. (Did "Cloud-Entering
> Dragon" Kong-Sun Sheng practice Yan Xin Qi Gong? Where else
> did he get the ability to change weather patterns?)
diplomacy is one thing and some basic MA faith is another,... if you don't
practice Qigong, or don't believe in it, just don't mention it, or don't say
anything about it... it's like if you don't believe in the Traditional Chinese
Medicine, then don't take the herbs and don't have accupuncture... like many
folks in various nations do without it, but as an original Chinese, one should
realise that is/was the Medicine/theory that served people for thousands
years, and that is the history and reality now and then...
> If only nice people always tell the truth.
By the way, do you believe in absolute truth?
jychow
I just finished reading your account of Shaolin Do, and wish to thank you for
being more responsible in clarifying the situation.
It is quite distressing as a very traditional Chinese to hear inaccurate
accounts of our traditions relayed far and wide. A lot of semi-truths do not
make perfect sense.
I did not contest the Kung Fu skill of your group. I contested the
inaccuracies previously presented. So, I hope there are no hard feelings.
Can you get to Masters Groom and Sin The (the real Sin The, not the one who
purportedly escaped the burning of "Fujian Temple" and died in China after
teaching to a student who eventually went to Indonesia) and go thru your
history and post that to the Web please. Such an authorative declaration
would help clarify the situation and clear up any doubts and suspicions that
people have about your school.
As you know, and probably the previous inaccuracies proved, words passed from
mouth to mouth to mouth tend to get distorted. I specially request that you go
over the accounts again and again and cross reference them to ensure excellent
"investigative research".
We await your posting,
Palms together,
John Chow
jychow
I see that you received some flak over your posting.
I am quite amused by your comments on the Dalia Lama and the Tibetan political
situation, and actually do appreciate your views.
I have not revealed to the reader forum that I am actually a very staunch
Vajrayanist, and of course, perhaps everyone would have guessed by my name that
I am Chinese. I have reviewed both sides of the story and say that both sides
have equally valid points of view.
It is best, and actually, in the best interest of both parties to cool things
down bilaterally and seek an amiable way out. I do not see that happening
yet, no matter what each side had been claiming for the past few years.
Now, about the problems between the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama: This is a
centuries old problem. The last few incantions "did not get along" vey well,
and since the Dalai Lama is the temporal ruler, he has the political upperhand,
and the poor Panchen had to flee for his life to China. Even the last Panchen
(the one who died a few years ago - I met him on his first official visit to
Australia) actually fled for his dear life!!!
Traditionally, the Dalai Lamas has always had a soft spot for India (and his
sect, the Gelugpas, have only and only regarded scriptures that are proven to
be from India, and only India, and India alone, are valid). The Panchens seem
to be more liberal, and somehow tend to lean towards China.
Amongst the Chinese, because the problems between the Gelugpas on 1 hand, and
the Nyingmapas and Kagyudpas on the other were so bad, that the Panchen Lama
was mistaken to be Red Hat. ie. Dalai Lama = Yellow Hat (Gelug) and Panchen
Lama
= Red Hat (Nyingma). Of course, this is wrong, but it sort of gives us an
indication how precarious the situation was.
Very luckily, after the exodus from Tibet, the situation is more recociliatory,
and there is more peace and co-operation between the sects. Whether the
situation will deteriorate again if the old status quo is regained remains to
be seen. It is something in the future. I am not going to cause more
distress by blurpping out too much - only that there are already some rumblings
and interferences in the past 10 years.
I think all sides should refrain from causing any worsening of the situation
and quietly find a way out. Forcefulness will only cause resistance, and
further strife. As a Chinese, I know well the instinctive habit of the PRC -
Press me and I will Press you back. Co-operate with me, and I will see that
you get what you want. As a mere mortal, I cannnot say this is right or
wrong.
I hope this posting will not infuriate anyone. If any Buddhist is incensed,
I suggest they really take their spiritual teachings to heart and do it a
little bit of honour - are they really practising Dharma or are they just vain
pots?
Kind regards,
John Chow
jychow
Travis Archer
* a lot of stuff which seems to pointedly ignore the clarifications I
tried to make to him*
First, Master Sin The' is the current Grandmaster of Shaolin-do.
I don't believe I ever claimed _any_ of the stuff you wrote above.
I refuse to continue this until you at least attempt to read the
clarifications of names and places I so painfully wrote in previous messages.
Secondly, to my knowledge, no representative of "our group", nor
anyone that I can think of, has made any such claims as you write publicly.
At most, I or others have posted what we have been told or what we read.
Even if I represented the art, which I don't, that doesn't constitute a claim.
I never claimed to know it to be true.
Third, if you really expect me to go flying all over the world to
verify the history of my art with the people whose names you've provided,
you're crazed. If I provided you with a bunch of names (real or not) that
_may_ or may not provide conclusive evidence in this matter, would
you blindly go on a research trip around the world and start asking these
people questions? Are you a scion of a rich family? Be realistic.
Travis
Tak Y Wong
Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>In article <DDqKr...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
>>Path: news.ycc.yale.edu!yale!news3.near.net!news2.near.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!wizard.pn.com!news1.channel1.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!infotask
>>From: info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong)
>
>Here said, I couldn't provide you with the exact publisher's information, but
>I believe that was the version of Shi lai-An' work because there were the
>later 71 chapters that was absent from the Jin Shen-Tan' version,... It was
>found from my uncle's book stock,... he's dead for years now... But if you are
>> I am afraid such version does not exist.
>
>Don't be so sure though.
Without the information on publisher, it is impossible for anyone
to find it. I can't just go to every library or bookstore
looking for it, especially if it indeed does not exist.
And I don't think I recall knowing your uncle.
You cannot assert the existence of Santa Claus by asking the
non-believers to find him. It is often easier to prove
something that exists, and usually improbable to prove it
does not. You can always drop me a line whenever you run
into such a version.
At any rate, let's forget about it.
>I didn't see Jacky Chan's drunken style, nor did I see Jet Li's version after
>he left the Mainland, but the one that Jet Li showed in the Movie Shaolin
>Temple was not what I would reckon as a reference at all,... he was actually
My line on Jet Li and Jackie Chan was a joke - sarcasm, to be
exact. Please don't take it seriously. I and others hosted
Jet Li when he first came to the US with Beijing WuShu Troupe
in 1980, when he was just a teenager. They are just a performing
troupe, and nothing more than that.
>To tell you the truth, the book I mentioned was indeed exist and which really
You should find it for me, then, so I can enrich my library. I and
others will be very grateful.
>
> > I was a student of Professor Lu Wai-Feng, a Ming/Qing history
>> expert (also a Wu Xia novel writer) at Harvard. Lu's teacher
>> was Professor Yang Luen-Sheng, whom Dr. Hu Shih once said was
>> the "most knowledgable Chinese scholar I have never known."
>
>Thanks for sharing this information with me, but it is unrelevant, I know
>China has 5,000 year culture history, even one specialised in Ming/Qing
>history, it doesn't necessarily mean he is specialise in Ming/Qing MA history
>or Ming/Qing folklore history because one must have his academic focus on some
>of his favorite area which in most circumstances wouldn't encompass
>everything, so it's still the ears and nose of an elephant.
>
Prof. Lu spent 10 years with Prof. Qian Mu in New Asia College
in Hong Kong. Then he went to Japan and studied in the Imperial
College (?) of Sinology. Then he came to the US and was
associated with the East Asian Studies Dept. for the last 20
years or so. I believe he was a classmate of Prof. Yu Ying-Shi,
former head of East Asian Studies of Yale and now of Harvard.
Dr. Lu's interest was varied. We used to have pro-longed
discussions on Taoism, Buddhism, popular literature (Red
Chamber, Western Journey, Water Margin, etc.) As a
Wu Xia novel writer under a pseudonym, I think you should
give him the benefit of the doubt that he is well-versed in
folklores, talltales, historical facts (??), and legends
in CHinese Martial Arts. As for myself, let's say Gu
Yu-Jiang used to work under my godfather, in the military,
for about 5 years.
>I know Dr. Hu Shih was famous, but not everybody would agree with him when
>come to a subject like MA... sorry, no credit can be taken here.
>
You would be surprised that Hu Shih did indeed have a lot to do
with modern Chinese Martial Arts. I don't know if you are
familiar with Cai Yuan-Pei and the history of Beijing
University. By the way, Cai was a very significant figure
in modern Chinese history and had not received nearly the
attention and tribute that he deserved.
I am not going to bore you with details, but in short, it was
Cai, Hu, and others who started a movement in the 1940's, just
before the War with Japan, that brought attention to traditional
martial arts. It was the Japanese who gave the Chinese in this
era the nickname, "Sickmen of East Asia", because of their
Opium habits. During the Russian-Japanese conflict, the Russian
army was defeated by the Japanese. Most credited the Japanese
victory to their knowledge of Judo - when the soldiers got into
full contact, the Russians were overcome by the Japanese in
physical combat. This got Cai and others thinking: "The Japanese
learned Judo from the Chinese. If they could use it gloriously,
why couldn't the CHinese themselves?" Cai, Hu, and other
educators started pushing the government to make martial arts
part of the curriculum in universities, and later high schools.
The educators also sorted out the more well-known practitioners
and asked them to help start the programs. Among these practitioners
were Sun Lun-Tang, Wu Jian-Quan, Yang Cheng-Fu. And the most
well-known of these, of course, was Hou Yuan-Jian, who
was brought out from seclusion by the educators to start
the "Jing Wu School". Most of the serious practitioners did
not stay long in universities or schools. Later on the program
was modified to fit the schedule and physiques of students
who were not trained from childhood. Many new forms were
invented based on the teachings of the original teachers.
Among these were the so-called "cha, hua, cai, pao, hong".
Cha came from traditional Cha Chuan, but modified. Hua was
a conglomerate of Northern Shaolin and some acrobatics. I
don't know what cai and pao were like, but hong was similar to
what you see today being performed by Shaolin Monks in the
temple for tourist entertainments.
My information may not be 100% accurate, but the involvement
of Cai Yuan-Pei and Hu Shih was well-documented (probably
not covered by something like Wu-Lin, though). It was a
very interesting time in China, with very interesting people.
I think it maybe rash to make a commentary as yours about
Dr. Hu Shih. You should really have a good understanding
of his background and what he was capable of, before making
a value judgement. He was not an obscure figure, like some
modern martial arts "grandmasters", who popped into the scene
from nowhere, that you have next to nothing for verification.
There are numerous sources about his life and time.
Even if you don't like him, at least you can find out how
scholars of his generation pursue and develop their knowledge.
I myself do not particularly agree with Hu Shih's
ideologies, but for the life of me, I can never be in the
same level of scholarship as he was.
>As a matter of fact, MA researchers in China have started to do systemic
>studies in Chinese folk MA in the past decade, more and more information never
It really depends on who is doing it, and with what motivation.
I am familiar with the editors of Wu-Lin (well, those in the
80's, anyway). I would say their reliability is about 1
notch above Wonder Comics and slightly below National Enquirer.
You can quote me, too, if you happen to run into any of the
current editors. I could have written articles for them
about Native American Ninja Gong Fu, if I wanted to.
At any rate, I have realized that I may not have been the
most diplomatic of posters. However, politenesss and
courtesy do not equate honesty and diligency. If you are
someone who looks for "not what they say, but how they say it",
you should try volunteering for Hillary Rodham Clinton; her
speeches on the underprivileged often bring me to tears.
Or try learning "extraordinary abilities" from Yan Xin; he
teaches trash, but according to those who know him, he is
actually a soft-spoken, likable chap. (Did "Cloud-Entering
Dragon" Kong-Sun Sheng practice Yan Xin Qi Gong? Where else
did he get the ability to change weather patterns?)
If only nice people always tell the truth.
Let's call it a day.
Regards,
Tak
Tak Y Wong
Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>In article <DDsn9...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>
>>In article <YangFC.33...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>> something that exists, and usually improbable to prove it
>> does not. You can always drop me a line whenever you run
>> into such a version.
>
>Alright, I may try to trace back to the book, but the problem I think you have
>was more ignorance than the book/information itself. For some reason I feel
>that it's not the gap of two figuers with different MA points...
>
>>>To tell you the truth, the book I mentioned was indeed exist and which really
There is a Dr. Ma in Hong Kong who is currently into research
on "Water Margin". He had gathered over a dozen different
editions that are commonly acknowledge as genuine and historical.
Among these, only a couple is not readily accessible (these are
stored in national museums of owned by private collectors.)
I hope the version that you mentioned is not a "1992
Adaptation by xxx". THis has been done many times by screen
playwrights and comic writers.
At any rate, the "Water Margin" was derived from "Da Song
Xuan He Hui Shi - The History Remains of Great Song (Dynasty)",
a short Yuan account of "Song Jiang and his cohorts gathered
in Liang Shan and fought with the government..." The author
of "Water Margin" took this record and added to it his knowledge
of local folklores and wrote the classic as a social and political
commentary of, actually, the author's own life and time.
In the preface, the author's renowned "sololiquy" - "When
one's over 30 and not yet married, one should avoid marriage...
when one's over 40 and not yet an official, one should not
serve in government...", he, in his own subtle ways, laments
the society treatment to scholars. And in chapter 15, a peddler
runs around in town reciting the poem:
"The Summer sun scorching like fires; Rice and wheat in wild
fields are half-baked; The peasants have a burning in thier
heart; Gentlemen and officials casually swing their fans."
The "Water Margin" is really about the inequality of society
and government; throughout the novel, the main theme about
Song Jiang and his bandits was "government forced us to
revolt; we have no choice but do so." Thus came the saying,
"forced to climb Liang Shan".
THe author was not interested in martial arts at all, not as
much and screenwriters and others, at any rate.
My original question was to ask you to provide a historical
reference on "Drunken Fist", and you came up with the "Water
Margin". You should have understood a statement like that will
instigate some not so compromising responses. Imagine what
American would say if I claim a Chinese had signed "a version"
of the Declaration of Independence.
At any rate, I think you and others have missed my point all
together. I was just trying to point out that many's
assertions and "reliable sources" are just private sentiments
at best. You may claim that you have seen UFO as a child and
your neighbors were abductees, but these are not proofs, because
most of us do not share your childhood or lived with your neigbhors.
A convincing argument will required some common ground
knowledge - a video tape of the flying saucer, or even better,
a captured alien, is a lot more acceptable the "I heard of it as
child, alright?!?" (But even a "self-evident" statement as such
is less provocative than saying it was in "Water Margin".)
My original objective was not really trying to find a proof,
but to point out that we should all re-examine our private
sources of information before sticking out our heads and
say these are absolute truth. Even historical accounts, those
on Cai Yuan-Pei, Hu Shih, etc. are not completely reliable,
and very often we have to apply our own intelligence,
common sense, and resources from others, in order to sort
out what "more likely could have happened". But by and large,
however, people are more concerned about winning an argument,
often at the expenses of themselves.
So I rest my case.
>
>I will try then to find the things I mentioned, again, I still doubt that you
>really have the faith to the question .
For the life of me, I really cannot understand this statement.
>in that time they had obtained their golden time to develop their carreer and
>they hit the right chance to be that established because they were in a time
>of change...But I never heared that any of them were carrying an astonish MA
>background, none of them were ever reported as a MA figue even in those
>relevant MA articles...
You missed my point entirely.
I never said either Cai or Hu was a great practitioner. I
merely pointed out, as records indicate, they were primarily
responsible for the "new wave" martial arts movement in
the 1940's, as opposed to your view that they knew nothing
about it. I believe it was Hu and his friends who coined
the term "Guo Shu - National Art", which is still used today.
Hu did not have to be a great practitioner; for all I know, he
probably had more first-hand contact and information on
the most famous practitioners of the last century than all
the people in this newsgroup together.
>Given the fact that you have been joking at the MA figues like Jet Li and so
>on at the performance of the Wushu, I bet Cai and Hu can never reach such
>performance level in their time... I think you should not defame the famous
>literature and educational scholars by putting them in an area that they don't
>belong to...
Do you truly believe you yourself have done more for Chinese
Martial Arts than Cai Yuan-Pei or Hu Shih?
>
>
>diplomacy is one thing and some basic MA faith is another,... if you don't
Basic MA "faith"?!? Is it more less the same as "read my lips"???
>practice Qigong, or don't believe in it, just don't mention it, or don't say
>anything about it... it's like if you don't believe in the Traditional Chinese
>Medicine, then don't take the herbs and don't have accupuncture... like many
>folks in various nations do without it, but as an original Chinese, one should
Do I at least have the right to check out if some doctors are
really up to the standard as they claim before going in for
major operation? Or should I just assume they are all gods
and any inquisition is an insult to their profession? (I still
have to pay for their services.)
>realise that is/was the Medicine/theory that served people for thousands
>years, and that is the history and reality now and then...
>
>
>
>> If only nice people always tell the truth.
>
>By the way, do you believe in absolute truth?
Relatively.
Regards,
Tak
>
Desmond Chan
: Desmond Chan <dc...@is.dal.ca> wrote:
: >Tak Y Wong (info...@world.std.com) wrote:
: >: Again, I am willing to accept references like that to Da Dao as
: >: proof that there was such a style. Give me a similar reference to
: >: "Drunken Style".
: >
: >One of the Ten Tigers of Kwungtung (Canton), nicknamed Beggar So, was
: >supposed to be well-known for his drunken style.
: In the movies, maybe. According to Jackie Chan's movies,
: Huang Fei-Hong was great at "Drunken Fist", too.
I didn't just see So in Jackie Chan's movies.
: I have seen at least 4 or 5 movies on the gunfight at OK Corral,
: each with a different portrayal of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday.
: I wonder which one tells the "truth".
: Beggar So was a student of Huang QI-Ying, which makes him
: the same generation as Huang Fei-Hong. Beggar So did Hung Gar,
: not "Drunken Style" - where would a Southerner learn Northern
: acrobatics, anyway?
Firstly, as far as I know, there is not a style that only has
drunken forms alone and nothing else, but you can find drunken forms in
some styles.
Secondly, followed from above, I definitely would not say So was doing
drunken style.
Thirdly, why would you think drunken form needs northern acrobatics?
: Your assertion proves my point exactly - that people take what
: they see in movies or novels and assume these to be facts. If
: you like to pick up history from movies, that's fine with me.
: You can even pass the "misinformation" around, if you want to.
: There are enough people out there who don't think with logics
: and eventually these rumors will become "facts". (By that time,
: facts will become falsehood, of course.)
I don't know why you seem so upset about other people's response. If it
makes you happier, I can say "Wong, you're right". It doesn't affect my
life a bit, but it can have nothing to do with reality. Sorry that I came
to the discussion late. Since you seem to be sure what other said is
wrong, I suppose you have evidence to support your point and not just
saying "because you guys can't prove its existence so it doesn't exist".
Care to summarise your evidence, if it's not too much of a trouble to you?
If you don't want to, that's fine with me. I'm not really interested in
knowing when drunken forms started.
I jumped in because you said you even accepted folklore as evidence.
Incidentally, what do you mean by folklore? My dictionary says "folklore
is the traditional stories, customs, habits, etc. of a particular
community or nation".
Regards,
D Chan
Wushu Man
: In article <41di84$4...@gaia.cc.gatech.edu>,
: David Lee Montgomery <dav...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
: >Just as a little factoid, Grandmaster The' and several students (including
: >the previously mentioned Master Grooms and Masters Soards) went on a trip to
: >China and Indonesia a few years ago. While in China, the group went to the
: >current Shao-Lin temple in Hunan. A ceremony was held at the temple to
: >erect a stone marker which bears the names of Su Kong Tai Djin, Ie Chang
: >Ming, and Sin Kwang The'. The words "Grand Master of Shao-Lin Do" appear
: >before Grandmaster The's name. In Bandung, the city in Indonesia where
: >Grandmaster The' grew up, a martial arts demonstration was organized
: >in honor of Grandmaster The's visit. The top martial arts masters in
: >Indonesia attended the demonstration and it was covered by all the local
: >media. If the masters in Indonesia and the monks at the temple have no
: >problem with Grandmaster The's lineage, then I sure don't.
: This is another thing that I pondered. I'm not really a TOTAL cynic. It's
: just that I like to see all possibilities rather than concluding one
: rashly. In this case, Master Grooms, his pamphlets, and many others
: have regurgitated this event as if to say that, because the monks there
: did that, Sin The' must therefore be legitimate. I say, possibly. I also
: recognize other possibilities, which I need to ask questions in order to
: narrow down:
: Who are the monks currently (living?) at the Shaolin Temple in China? Do
: they practice Shaolin Kung fu? Are they truly Buddhist monks? Do they
: have any connection with the generations of Shaolin monks before themselves?
: I know that Shaolin temple was burned down on several(?) occassions, and
: the monks murdered(?) or driven away, so the question is, do these current
: residents of Shaolin temple have anyone who can trace their lineage back to
: when there were Shaolin kung fu experts there? Are they currently authentic
: Shaolin kung fu experts, and who is their head master?
:
: When did these monks repopulate the Shaolin temple? What got them back into
: it? Was it the government? Did the government hand pick the monks to
: be there, or did they come freely, maybe because their fathers or
: grandfathers were once Shaolin monks?
:
: Did the monks there create the stone marker for Sin The' out of a sense of
: righteousness (the right thing to do), or was it more of a political
: statement? Stone tablets and other little tokens of public appreciation
: can sometimes have a dubious political purpose.
:
: Can anyone answer these questions? I'd really appreciate that knowledge.
:
: Thanks,
: - Steve Weigand
: (wei...@ee.udel.edu)
:
Just my 2 cent on this relation on the stone...
The Shaolin Temple recently wanted to set a stone for Jet Li (the fame
martial artist in Shaolin Temple I & II), so, does that mean that Jet Li
is from Shaolin as well?
Jet refused to accept the stone marker, for his definition, he is NOT
yet dead to have a stone carved with his name on.. besides, he is NOT
of Shaolin temple.
Terry Chan
[Exchange between Tak Yin Wong, Desmond Chan, and somebody else]
-I jumped in because you said you even accepted folklore as evidence.
-Incidentally, what do you mean by folklore? My dictionary says "folklore
-is the traditional stories, customs, habits, etc. of a particular
-community or nation".
That's right. Folklore is certainly evidence, however its relevance
depends on what question is being asked. There are many aspects of
folklore that are entirely fictitous, most commonly from the standpoint
of specific details, incidents, and historical figures. However, their
study provides insight into what there was that people did have knowledge
of, particularly when the date of a transmission may be established (as
in the case of _Water Margin_).
The point of a reference to drunken boxing, even if only in folklore
is as a means to establish whether or not there was any knowledge of
such a system at that time (as evidenced by its use by the writer or
storyteller). Generally, tellers of folklore use information available
to them at the time. They may distort, exaggerate, dramatize, or
fantasize to achieve whatever effects are desired, but through careful
study, one can certainly discover and obtain a great deal of understanding.
You say that you came late to this subject and yet much of the discussion
has only been over the past few days. If you're interested, you should
read it over first. If not, then it's irrelevant.
For more information on folklore research, you can try alt.folklore.urban,
though its s/n ratio is rapily approaching that of alt.religion.kibology.
The relevance of folklore to martial arts? That's pretty much the
basis for the tranmission of information for all the traditional arts.
Terry "For better or for worse" Chan
JeaValjean
if you know of any schools or individuals around here that teach Shaolin
(or other related Chinese martial arts...). I would appreciate any
information that you could provide.
Thanks....
Matt
(JeaVa...@aol.com)
Fu-chen Yang
>In article <YangFC.33...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>Fu-chen Yang <Yan...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu> wrote:
>>In article <DDsn9...@world.std.com> info...@world.std.com (Tak Y Wong) writes:
>>
>>>In article <YangFC.33...@maspo2.mas.yale.edu>,
>>Alright, I may try to trace back to the book, but the problem I think you have
>>was more ignorance than the book/information itself. For some reason I feel
>>that it's not the gap of two figuers with different MA points...
>>
> There is a Dr. Ma in Hong Kong who is currently into research
> on "Water Margin". He had gathered over a dozen different
> editions that are commonly acknowledge as genuine and historical.
> Among these, only a couple is not readily accessible (these are
> stored in national museums of owned by private collectors.)
> I hope the version that you mentioned is not a "1992
> Adaptation by xxx". THis has been done many times by screen
> playwrights and comic writers.
Thanks for elaborate that, I may not need his assistance for the time being,
before I checked into the right book, our discrepancy to the problem wouldn't
be solved...
And no the book I read in the mid to late 70s, so that rule out the
possibility of the 1992 adaption...
> At any rate, the "Water Margin" was derived from "Da Song
> Xuan He Hui Shi - The History Remains of Great Song (Dynasty)",
> a short Yuan account of "Song Jiang and his cohorts gathered
> in Liang Shan and fought with the government..." The author
> of "Water Margin" took this record and added to it his knowledge
> of local folklores and wrote the classic as a social and political
> commentary of, actually, the author's own life and time.
> In the preface, the author's renowned "sololiquy" - "When
> one's over 30 and not yet married, one should avoid marriage...
> when one's over 40 and not yet an official, one should not
> serve in government...", he, in his own subtle ways, laments
> the society treatment to scholars. And in chapter 15, a peddler
> runs around in town reciting the poem:
Yea, indeed there was/is old sayings like over the thirties ask no marriage
and over the fourties ask no ranks, ect. , and the author was indeed very
involved in the book...So his work should more or less mirror the situation in
that time, and that was/is what I mean the hint.
> "The Summer sun scorching like fires; Rice and wheat in wild
> fields are half-baked; The peasants have a burning in thier
> heart; Gentlemen and officials casually swing their fans."
> The "Water Margin" is really about the inequality of society
> and government; throughout the novel, the main theme about
> Song Jiang and his bandits was "government forced us to
> revolt; we have no choice but do so." Thus came the saying,
> "forced to climb Liang Shan".
That's the meaning between the lines, that is the "Yi" , but the without
various stories, facts, folklores or the "form/xing" as carrier, the "Yi" had
no way to be expressed... , but all we were talking about was the significance
of the forms... I understand it was not a report literature, but it is not a
pure fictional work either, the book has its factual background,... as you may
as well realise that the author was not the type that made all those MA terms
to perplexing people, thus make the MA terms mentioned in the book valuable
somehow...
> THe author was not interested in martial arts at all, not as
> much and screenwriters and others, at any rate.
I would say this is a very irresponsible assumption, if the author was not
interested in MA at all, then he could have just chose something else as story
to write the whole thing... as a matter of fact, there are quite a few very
vivid and articulate MA fighting senariors descripted in the book, if you just
leaf through it, I bet you should notice that...
> My original question was to ask you to provide a historical
> reference on "Drunken Fist", and you came up with the "Water
> Margin". You should have understood a statement like that will
> instigate some not so compromising responses. Imagine what
> American would say if I claim a Chinese had signed "a version"
> of the Declaration of Independence.
No, or yes, Iike I mentioned in previous post, if you practice real MA at all,
you should have no problem in seeing the true MA component in a form, no
matter where it comes from or whether you really know the true origin or not,
the art itself can be the best talk... " drunken style" forms that I have come
across to see, including some Wushu styles, were basically revealed signs of
some true origin because the whole idea of a true form is expressed besides
the flashy entertaining contents... thus a MA practitioner, can indeed make
use of the style in real life even with the perfornace form( believe it or not
), this indeed indicates the true connection to some serieous MA lineages
other than the Wushu entertaining troopes...
And as a matter of fact, many those new Wushu forms are also come out of some
established MAtist, the forms though are for entertaining, more or less reveal
the compiler's original true lineage... This there are too many things to
proof, and I don't want to get into details yet.
I have stressed in my previous post that I was not a Drunken Style
practitioner, and all I believe in that book was like I said an old
implication of the true existence of the system and it is not an folklore from
today...
My response to the thread more or less obliged to your previous extrapolation
to that Ba Chuan was the drunken 8 immortals, and you refused to elaborate
more on that,... then I guess( just my guess ) that your purpose in doing the
questioning was/is to deny the true drunken style's existence, which pretty
much is an irresponsible point to a MA system,...Think it is an exotic MA
system, even in China one may not be able to trace back to the true lineage(
like in many other MA ), so the chance that one gets the right answer in a
remote nation from the place of origin is obviously slim,... If you make your
conclusion on basis of what you can get here only, then again, your sampling
method in your study can be questioned seriously... thus I made that
suggestion to you on the other post to go back to China and make a similar
claim...
Well, as I can read between your lines, you were very sentimental person with
some bias to the Mainland,... As far as I am concerned, the world can be very
large and can get people apart from each other, while the world can also be
very small and brings us together from various parts...
> At any rate, I think you and others have missed my point all
> together. I was just trying to point out that many's
> assertions and "reliable sources" are just private sentiments
> at best. You may claim that you have seen UFO as a child and
> your neighbors were abductees, but these are not proofs, because
> most of us do not share your childhood or lived with your neigbhors.
> A convincing argument will required some common ground
> knowledge - a video tape of the flying saucer, or even better,
> a captured alien, is a lot more acceptable the "I heard of it as
> child, alright?!?" (But even a "self-evident" statement as such
> is less provocative than saying it was in "Water Margin".)
I think that claim was not wrong, he was talking about the issue from an
MAtist point of view... Because the fact in MA that no complete and
undoubtable history record established, so it is a common sense that when sees
the sign, then somehow one sees the root...
> My original objective was not really trying to find a proof,
> but to point out that we should all re-examine our private
> sources of information before sticking out our heads and
> say these are absolute truth. Even historical accounts, those
> on Cai Yuan-Pei, Hu Shih, etc. are not completely reliable,
> and very often we have to apply our own intelligence,
> common sense, and resources from others, in order to sort
> out what "more likely could have happened". But by and large,
> however, people are more concerned about winning an argument,
> often at the expenses of themselves.
Winning ? I see, that was/is what really stick to your mind, as far as I am
concerned, once get into the arguement like this, there is no winner after
all... all I see the meaning in such talk is idea exchange and multual
benefitial education. As I mentioned in my post, I don't have to assert the
point in the book, the issue is really about the how/why we look into such a
historical existence.
As to Cai and Hu, they both were very famous literatural and educational
characters in China, on their reputaiton, nothing in any aspects of their life
that can be of public interest can possiblely be ignored by the media...
especially, with the different stages of time going... So far I have never
read or heared about anything you addressed to both in terms of their deep
involvement in the MA...
> So I rest my case.
That's your option.
>>
>>I will try then to find the things I mentioned, again, I still doubt that you
>>really have the faith to the question .
> For the life of me, I really cannot understand this statement.
I guess that's I mean the bias.
>>in that time they had obtained their golden time to develop their carreer and
>>they hit the right chance to be that established because they were in a time
>>of change...But I never heared that any of them were carrying an astonish MA
>>background, none of them were ever reported as a MA figue even in those
>>relevant MA articles...
> You missed my point entirely.
Which I refer to your self-comparing to those established pioneers in terms of
lifetime achievements.
>>Given the fact that you have been joking at the MA figues like Jet Li and so
>>on at the performance of the Wushu, I bet Cai and Hu can never reach such
>>performance level in their time... I think you should not defame the famous
>>literature and educational scholars by putting them in an area that they don't
>>belong to...
> Do you truly believe you yourself have done more for Chinese
> Martial Arts than Cai Yuan-Pei or Hu Shih?
They are not Zhong Kui and we are not Gui either, why bother?
>>diplomacy is one thing and some basic MA faith is another,... if you don't
> Basic MA "faith"?!? Is it more less the same as "read my lips"???
Your lips are not that something for a public read, again, if you ever
practice some descend MA, then you should know what I mean.
>>practice Qigong, or don't believe in it, just don't mention it, or don't say
>>anything about it... it's like if you don't believe in the Traditional Chinese
>>Medicine, then don't take the herbs and don't have accupuncture... like many
>>folks in various nations do without it, but as an original Chinese, one should
> Do I at least have the right to check out if some doctors are
> really up to the standard as they claim before going in for
> major operation? Or should I just assume they are all gods
> and any inquisition is an insult to their profession? (I still
> have to pay for their services.)
You missed my point here. Then here your premises are you are believe in the
issue but just talk about the quality... Ok, then here is my suggestion, use
brain and don't use bias.
jychow
>Firstly, as far as I know, there is not a style that only has
>drunken forms alone and nothing else, but you can find drunken forms in
>some styles.
May I say that I agree with this point. The Drunken Style and the Monkey Style
were very powerful styles in the old hero days, and were so good that they were
absorbed (even now you can see - we absorb and pinch what is good into our own
style) into may different styles. Of course it diluted the transmission of
its own lineage since masters who learnt it "choof off" back to their own
styles and so who else is there to take care and hand these styles down as
intact as possible ......????
I would not contest the claim of any master who claims to know these two
styles.
I would not know whether they learnt them as part of their own system, or
"jerked off" on modern Wu Shu. No comment on that.
But just because someone know Drunken Style for many years do not mean that
they came from Shaolin Temple. In fact, there is no evidence that Shaolin
Temple is a nest of Drunken Boxers. If anyone makes calims about "the Wudang
temple", please supply a name then. The martial arts community will endeavor
to have that checked out.
Kind regards,
John Chow
Fin Tang
>From: <jychow>
>Subject: Re: Chinese Shaolin Center / Sin The' / Atlanta
>Date: 11 Aug 1995 09:45:09 GMT
>I am not debunking your master or grandmaster here, but I would like to point
>out that as a CHINESE from Sabah (this lies between Malaysia, Indonesia and
>Philippines), I do not agree with your account of Shaolin.
>Maybe you should ask Grandmaster Chi Kim Tong (and his student Master Yap Cheng
>Hai) of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia for a more accurate account.
Are you a student of GM Chee Kim Tong ? If so, where are U based?
He is my GM, and Master Yap regularly comes over to London UK to give seminars
(the most recent was Shaolin 5 Animals, 30 forms in 3 days!!! - absolutely
powerful, but so simple).
My sifu is Yap Leong, who studied under CKT and YCH in Malaysia before
coming over to the UK.
NOTE - you may find CKT not very talkative, unlike YCH who talk kung fu all
the time!
Desmond Chan
: dc...@is.dal.ca (Desmond Chan) writes:
: [Exchange between Tak Yin Wong, Desmond Chan, and somebody else]
: -I jumped in because you said you even accepted folklore as evidence.
: -Incidentally, what do you mean by folklore? My dictionary says "folklore
: -is the traditional stories, customs, habits, etc. of a particular
: -community or nation".
: That's right. Folklore is certainly evidence, however its relevance
: depends on what question is being asked.
: [snip]
Now this is a newly added qualification. It should have been stated when
the issue of folklore was raised and not after the fact. Otherwise, there
is no reason to reject the use of it as evidence that Wong stated that he
would accept. It simply is because the requirement was satisfied. Unless you
want a "head-I-win-tail-you-lose" situation.
As I said, the true root of drunken style is not really my interest. I
just wanted to contribute, if there is any, a tiny little bit. I'll stay
out of the discussion on that. Sorry for interrupting.
Regards,
D Chan